The testimony of Nat A. Pinkston was taken at 12:10 p.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Pinkston. I do.
Mr.Ball. State your name, please.
Mr.Pinkston. Nat A. Pinkston.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Pinkston. I'm a Special Agent with the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr.Ball. Have you had your deposition taken before this proceeding?
Mr.Pinkston. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Your address is what?
Mr.Pinkston. My residence address is 2106 Van Cleave Drive, Dallas.
Mr.Ball. And how long have you been a Special Agent for the Federal Bureau of Investigation?
Mr.Pinkston. Be 24 years next month.
Mr.Ball. And you are assigned to what office?
Mr.Pinkston. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Ball. Now, you did not receive a letter from the Commission asking you to testify, did you?
Mr.Pinkston. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes.
Mr.Ball. At my request, wasn't it?
Mr.Pinkston. Well,I——
Mr.Ball. Anyway, you were asked to come over here by Mr. Shanklin and he advised you that your deposition would be taken at that time?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The deposition taken in the course of an investigation by the Commission to investigate the facts concerning the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and I am a staff officer. My name is Joseph A. Ball. I am authorized to administer the oath to you and to ask you certain questions concerning some matters which you do have knowledge of.
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You are willing to testify, are you not?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In the course of your investigation, were you called to the Texas School Book Depository sometimes around the 2d of December 1963?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And who asked you to come down there?
Mr.Pinkston. I was instructed by one of my supervisors to conduct an investigation there on that date.
Mr.Ball. On that date?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see a fellow by the name of Frankie Kaiser?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And Roy Truly?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did they tell you when you came down there?
Mr.Pinkston. To the best of my recollection I was there waiting to see Mr. Truly. He was somewhere else in the building, and I was waiting for him on the occasion in question. Frankie Kaiser came down the stairs and said that he had found something on the sixth floor. I didn't—I then accompanied him back to the sixth floor where he pointed out on the floor near the entrance to the stair well, a clipboard with some orders on it, and—pardon me a second, do you want me to testify to what Kaiser told me, which ishearsay——
Mr.Ball. That is all right, but Kaiser told you that when you were downstairs, that something—didn't he? When he was—did Kaiser come downstairs?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes; Kaiser came downstairs and took me back upstairs with him and pointed out the clipboard which he had left on the floor.
Mr.Ball. Did he say he had left it there?
Mr.Pinkston. He had seen it there and did not bother it.
Mr.Ball. I see.
Mr.Pinkston. He did not put it there.
Mr.Ball. I see. Kaiser told you and you went upstairs and Kaiser pointed out the clipboard?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. First, the location of the clipboard.
Mr.Pinkston. The clipboard was generally in the northwest corner of the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository. It was on the floor behind the books, against the wall of the stair well.
Mr.Ball. There were some book cartons in front of it, were there?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, did Frankie Kaiser say something? That is hearsay, but I would like to hear what it was.
Mr.Pinkston. He told me this clipboard was the one that he had made, and had given to Oswald when Oswald went to work at the School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. Did you examine the clipboard?
Mr.Pinkston. I did, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did it have anybody's name on it?
Mr.Pinkston. It had quite a bit of scribbling on it, and I believe—well, I am not in a position to say right now exactly what it had on it other than some orders.
Mr.Ball. It did have some orders on it?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And did you examine the orders?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me the date of the orders and the general description of the orders?
Mr.Pinkston. Three orders on this clipboard. Each order was dated November 22d. The first was an order from Mrs. Hazel Carroll of the Reading Clinic, SMU, for one Parliamentary Procedure at $1.40. Was published by Scott, Foresman & Co.
And this invoice bore No. 2454. The second one was an order from Dallas Independent School District from Mr. M. J. Morton, purchasing agent, at the School Administration Building, 3700 Ross Avenue, Dallas, Tex., for 10 ERS, Basic Reading Skills, for high schools, revised, at $1.12, or total of $11.20. Published by Scott, Foresman & Co.
The Invoice was No. 6057.
The third order was an order to be sent to Mr. M. K. Baker, Junior High School, Reynosa, New Mex., for one TE Basic Reading Skills. J. H. S. use. No charge. Sent at the request of Miss Mary Williams. Publisher; Scott, Foresman & Co., invoice 8291.
Each of these orders, as I say, were dated November 22, 1963.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you—with the orders after you made these notations?
Mr.Pinkston. I turned them over to Mr. Truly. He desired to fill the orders.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with the clipboard?
Mr.Pinkston. I returned the clipboard to my office and made an exhibit of it, as I recall.
Mr.Ball. Is it still an exhibit? It is an FBI exhibit?
Mr.Pinkston. I believe so.
Mr.Ball. In the possession of the FBI?
Mr.Pinkston. I haven't seen it since then.
Mr.Ball. Will you try to determine if you still have that as an exhibit in your office, or in Washington?
Mr.Pinkston. Yes.
Mr.Ball. All right.
Now, this will be written up and will be submitted to you for your signature, or you can waive your signature.
Mr.Pinkston. I would liketo——
Mr.Ball. See it and read it?
Mr.Pinkston. See it and read it and sign it.
Mr.Ball. You will be notified to come to this office and read it and sign it.
(After the conclusion of the deposition and at 1 o'clock, p.m., on the same day as the taking of the deposition, Mr. Nat A. Pinkston appeared before me, Iris Leonard, stating that he wished the following statement to be incorporated with his deposition: "After reviewing my records, I am now able to state definitely that after examining the clipboard and the orders thereon, I left them at the Texas School Book Depository with Mr. Truly. The clipboard was picked up by another FBI agent at a later time and was made an exhibit.")
The testimony of Billy Nolan Lovelady was taken at 3:50 p.m., on April 7, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you please stand, hold up your right hand and be sworn?
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Lovelady. I do.
Mr.Ball. State your name, please.
Mr.Lovelady. Billy Nolan Lovelady.
Mr.Ball. You received a letter from the Commission, didn't you?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You know the purpose of the investigation?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was and your experience, in general?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I was born at Myrtle Springs, Tex., 1937, February 19, and lived there for about 20 years until I went into the service and I did nursery work and that's about all there is, farm work down there and nursery and stuff like that.
Mr.Ball. When did you go to work for Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Lovelady. December 16, 1961, I believe it was.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work did you do there?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, they hired me when I went there as a truck driver, drove truck until another job as stockman was open, taking care of the stock that comes in, see that it's put in the right place.
Mr.Ball. Which one of the buildings do you work in?
Mr.Lovelady. At the one at 411 Elm.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, where were you working?
Mr.Lovelady. At that morning, you mean?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Lovelady. I was working on the sixth floor putting—we was putting down that flooring.
Mr.Ball. Who were you working with?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, there was Bonnie Ray Williams and Danny Arce and Slim, Charles Givens; we call him Slim, and let me see, well Mr. Shelley would come up every once in while, check on us. He wasn't workin' with us but he would come up see how we gettin' along.
Mr.Ball. That's Mr. Shelley?
Mr.Lovelady. Mr. Bill Shelley.
Mr.Ball. What is his position with Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Lovelady. He would be under Mr. R. S. Truly.
Mr.Ball. Is he a foreman?
Mr.Lovelady. I guess you would call it that. He takes care of most things down there, paperwork and stuff like that.
Mr.Ball. Did you know Lee Oswald?
Mr.Lovelady. Well just to work with him.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I never did carry on any long conversations or anything like that, maybe, you know, "Hello," or I asked him a few times how his little baby was getting along; he told me it was doing fine.
Mr.Ball. Where did Oswald work in the building?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, he had access to all the building just like I do.
Mr.Ball. All floors?
Mr.Lovelady. All floors.
Mr.Ball. Any floor?
Mr.Lovelady. Any floor; I mean he didn't have no business in the office. I mean, or to if, say, like Mr. Truly would say "Okay, Lee, go up and give me a certain something from the office," he could go up there.
Mr.Ball. Did he work on one floor more than any other?
Mr.Lovelady. No; I wouldn't say because there's different publishers on each order and he has to go to different floors to get books.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald ever eat lunch with you?
Mr.Lovelady. He ate two or three times in that little domino room, but not by himself, with the rest of the boys.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him come to work that morning?
Mr.Lovelady. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him carry a sack or anything in his hand?
Mr.Lovelady. No, sir; just lunch.
Mr.Ball. Did he usually carry his lunch or did he buy his lunch?
Mr.Lovelady. Most of the time he had fruit and stuff like that, grapes and raisins, stuff like that I noticed a few times he had.
Mr.Ball. What time did you quit work that day or knock off for lunch that day?
Mr.Lovelady. Same time, 12.
Mr.Ball. A little before 12?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, we came down at 10 minutes til to wash up and get ready for it.
Mr.Ball. Did you come down the elevator?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Who did you go down with?
Mr.Lovelady. Let me see, I think it was Bonnie Ray Williams on the side I was; I believe so.
Mr.Ball. Were you having a race with the other boys?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir; sure was.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anything or hear anything of Oswald on the way down?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes; he was on the opposite side of the elevator I was on. I heard him holler to one of the boys to stop, he wanted the elevator. They said, "No; we're going down to lunch," and closed the gate I was on and come down and got ready to watch the President come by or got ready to go to lunch, and that's the last I heard of him.
Mr.Ball. You were on the west elevator?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Oswald was standing in front of the east elevator?
Mr.Lovelady. East, on back, the elevator back.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him?
Mr.Lovelady. No; I didn't; I just heard his voice because—where those slats are in back of the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him again that day?
Mr.Lovelady. No.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after you went down and washed up; what did you do?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I went over and got my lunch and went upstairs and got a coke and come on back down.
Mr.Ball. Upstairs on what floor?
Mr.Lovelady. That's on the second floor; so, I started going to the domino room where I generally went in to set down and eat and nobody was there and I happened to look on the outside and Mr. Shelley was standing outside with Miss Sarah Stanton, I believe her name is, and I said, "Well, I'll go out there and talk with them, sit down and eat my lunch out there, set on the steps," so I went out there.
Mr.Ball. You ate your lunch on the steps?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Lovelady. Bill Shelley and Sarah Stanton, and right behindme——
Mr.Ball. What was that last name?
Mr.Lovelady. Stanton.
Mr.Ball. What is the first name?
Mr.Lovelady. Bill Shelley.
Mr.Ball. And Stanton's first name?
Mr.Lovelady. Miss Sarah Stanton.
Mr.Ball. Did you stay on the steps?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were you there when the President's motorcade went by?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear anything?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr.Ball. What did you hear?
Mr.Lovelady. I thought it was firecrackers or somebody celebrating the arrival of the President. It didn't occur to me at first what had happened until this Gloria came running up to us and told us the President had been shot.
Mr.Ball. Who was this girl?
Mr.Lovelady. Gloria Calvary.
Mr.Ball. Gloria Calvary?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where does she work?
Mr.Lovelady. Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr.Ball. Where was the direction of the sound?
Mr.Lovelady. Right there around that concrete little deal on that knoll.
Mr.Ball. That's where it sounded to you?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir; to my right. I was standing as you are going down the steps, I was standing on the right, sounded like it was in that area.
Mr.Ball. From the underpass area?
Mr.Lovelady. Between the underpass and the building right on that knoll.
Mr.Ball. I have got a picture here, Commission Exhibit 369. Are you on that picture?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Take a pen or pencil and mark an arrow where you are.
Mr.Lovelady. Where I thought the shots are?
Mr.Ball. No; you in the picture.
Mr.Lovelady. Oh, here (indicating).
Mr.Ball. Draw an arrow down to that; do it in the dark. You got an arrow in the dark and one in the white pointing toward you. Where were you when the picture was taken?
Mr.Lovelady. Right there at the entrance of the building standing on the top of the step, would be here (indicating).
Mr.Ball. You were standing on which step?
Mr.Lovelady. It would be your top level.
Mr.Ball. The top step you were standing there?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Now, when Gloria came up you were standing near Mr. Shelley?
Mr.Lovelady. Yeah.
Mr.Ball. When Gloria came up and said the President had been shot, Gloria Calvary, what did you do?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I asked who told her. She said he had been shot so we asked her was she for certain or just had she seen the shot hit him or—she said yes, she had been right close to it to see and she had saw the blood and knew he had been hit but didn't know how serious it was and so the crowd had started towards the railroad tracks back, you know, behind our building there and we run towards that little, old island and kind of down there in that little street. We went as far as the first tracks and everybody was hollering and crying and policemen started running out that way and we said we better get back into the building, so we went back into the west entrance on the back dock had that low ramp and went into the back dock back inside the building.
Mr.Ball. First of all, let's get you to tell us whom you left the steps with.
Mr.Lovelady. Mr. Shelley.
Mr.Ball. Shelley and you went down how far?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I would say a good 75, between 75 to 100 yards to the first tracks. See how those tracksgoes——
Mr.Ball. You went down the dead end on Elm?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And down to the first tracks?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anything there?
Mr.Lovelady. No sir; well, just people running.
Mr.Ball. That's all?
Mr.Lovelady. And hollerin.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to go down there?
Mr.Lovelady. I don't know, because everybody was running from that way and naturally, Iguess——
Mr.Ball. They were running from that way or toward that way?
Mr.Lovelady. Toward that way; everybody thought it was coming from that direction.
Mr.Ball. By the time you left the steps had Mr. Truly entered the building?
Mr.Lovelady. As we left the steps I would say we were at least 15, maybe 25, steps away from the building. I looked back and I saw him and the policeman running into the building.
Mr.Ball. How many steps?
Mr.Lovelady. Twenty, 25.
Mr.Ball. Steps away and you looked back and saw him enter the building?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Then you came back. How long did you stay around the railroad tracks?
Mr.Lovelady. Oh, just a minute, maybe minute and a half.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Lovelady. Came back right through that part where Mr. Campbell, Mr. Truly, and Mr. Shelley park their cars and I came back inside the building.
Mr.Ball. And enter from the rear?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr.Ball. You heard the shots. And how long after that was it before Gloria Calvary came up?
Mr.Lovelady. Oh, approximately 3 minutes, I would say.
Mr.Ball. Three minutes is a long time.
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, it's—I say approximately; I can't say because I don't have a watch; it could.
Mr.Ball. Had people started to run?
Mr.Lovelady. Well, I couldn't say because she came up to us and we was talking to her, wasn't looking that direction at that time, but when we came off the steps—see, that entrance, you have a blind side when you go down the steps.
Mr.Ball. Right after you talked to Gloria, did you leave the steps and go toward the tracks?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you run or walk?
Mr.Lovelady. Medium trotting or fast walk.
Mr.Ball. A fast walk?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to turn around and see Truly and the policeman go into the building?
Mr.Lovelady. Somebody hollered and I looked.
Mr.Ball. You turned around and looked?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. After you ran to the railroad tracks you came back and went in the back door of the building?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Did you go in through the docks, the wide open door or did you go in the ordinary small door?
Mr.Lovelady. You know where we park our trucks—that door; we have a little door.
Mr.Ball. That is where you went in, that little door?
Mr.Lovelady. That's right.
Mr.Ball. That would be the north end of the building?
Mr.Lovelady. That would be the west end, wouldn't it?
Mr.Ball. Is it the one right off Houston Street?
Mr.Lovelady. No; you are thinking about another dock.
Mr.Ball. I am?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes; we have two.
Mr.Ball. Do you have a dock on the west side and one on the north side of the building?
Mr.Lovelady. East, and well, it would be east and west but you enter it from the south side.
Mr.Ball. Now, the southside——
Mr.Lovelady. Elm Street is that little dead-end street.
Mr.Ball. That's south.
Mr.Lovelady. I drive my truck here (indicating) but we came in from this direction; that would have to be west.
Mr.Ball. You came into the building from the west side?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go into the building?
Mr.Lovelady. Through that, those raised-up doors.
Mr.Ball. Through the raised-up doors?
Mr.Lovelady. Through that double door that we in the morning when we get there we raised. There's a fire door and they have two wooden doors between it.
Mr.Ball. You came in through the first floor?
Mr.Lovelady. Right.
Mr.Ball. Who did you see in the first floor?
Mr.Lovelady. I saw a girl but I wouldn't swear to it it's Vickie.
Mr.Ball. Who is Vickie?
Mr.Lovelady. The girl that works for Scott, Foresman.
Mr.Ball. What is her full name?
Mr.Lovelady. I wouldn't know.
Mr.Ball. Vickie Adams?
Mr.Lovelady. I believe so.
Mr.Ball. Would you say it was Vickie you saw?
Mr.Lovelady. I couldn't swear.
Mr.Ball. Where was the girl?
Mr.Lovelady. I don't remember what place she was but I remember seeinga girl and she was talking to Bill or saw Bill or something, then I went over and asked one of the guys what time it was and to see if we should continue working or what.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any other people on the first floor?
Mr.Lovelady. Oh, yes; by that time there were more; a few of the guys had come in.
Mr.Ball. And you stayed on the first door then?
Mr.Lovelady. I would say 30 minutes. And one of the policemen asked me would I take them up on the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Did you take them up there?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes, sir; I sure did.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Lovelady, your testimony will be written up and it can be submitted to you for your signature if you wish and you can make any changes, or you can waive signature and we will make this yourfinal——
Mr.Lovelady. I want this to be the final one.
Mr.Ball. All right; you waive signature?
Mr.Lovelady. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Thanks very much.
The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 2:30 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you hold up your right hand and be sworn, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Kaiser. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you give me your name, please?
Mr.Kaiser. Frankie Kaiser.
Mr.Ball. What is your address?
Mr.Kaiser. 5230 West Ledbetter in Duncanville.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Kaiser. Warehouse workman at the Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. How long have you worked for that company?
Mr.Kaiser. Oh, just about 2 years.
Mr.Ball. What time do you go to work down there?
Mr.Kaiser. Eight o'clock in the morning.
Mr.Ball. What date did you go to work for them?
Mr.Kaiser. It was August 24, 1962.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Kaiser. Texas—Texarkana, Ark.
Mr.Ball. Were you born there?
Mr.Kaiser. No, sir; I was born in Omaha, Nebr.
Mr.Ball. And then you went to school in Texarkana, did you?
Mr.Kaiser. Right.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after you got out of school?
Mr.Kaiser. I never finished.
Mr.Ball. How far did you go?
Mr.Kaiser. I went to the tenth grade and quit and went in the service and went in for 6 months in the National Guards and come out and then came to Dallas and started to work and I worked for Morrises.
Mr.Ball. You worked for whom?
Mr.Kaiser. Morris Warehouse.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do after that?
Mr.Kaiser. I worked there for about 3 years and then I started to work over there.
Mr.Ball. You started to work over at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes—then I got married.
Mr.Ball. You did—what kind of work do you do at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Kaiser. Drive a truck—fill orders—just about anything that needs to be done.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever know a fellow by the name of Lee Oswald that worked there?
Mr.Kaiser. Not personally—I would know him when I would see him.
Mr.Ball. Did you work in the same building with him?
Mr.Kaiser. Same building.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when the President's parade went by?
Mr.Kaiser. At the Baylor Dental College.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Kaiser. At the Baylor Dental College.
Mr.Ball. Sir, you weren't anywhere near the School Book Depository?
Mr.Kaiser. No, sir; I was off Thursday and Friday with abscessed tooth. I was sitting in the chair and when I got off, we was out in the lobby watching it on TV down at the dental college there.
Mr.Ball. When did you go back to work?
Mr.Kaiser. It was the following Monday.
Mr.Ball. That would be the 25th, wouldn't it?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir; I believe so—the 25th.
Mr.Ball. Now, one day you found a clipboard, didn't you?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes; it was about a week later. I went upstairs, you see, the corner I found it in—we keep a certain teacher's edition of Catholic handbooks.
Mr.Ball. I didn't quite hear that—Catholic what?
Mr.Kaiser. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic "Think and Do" books.
Mr.Ball. I didn't quite hear that—Catholic what?
Mr.Kaiser. We keep our teacher's edition of Catholic books—separated.
Mr.Ball. You do?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir; and I went up there to get a teacher's edition.
Mr.Ball. On what floor?
Mr.Kaiser. On the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Now, what part of the sixth floor is this Catholic edition located?
Mr.Kaiser. It was in that corner.
Mr.Ball. And in what corner is that?
Mr.Kaiser. Let'ssee——
Mr.Ball. Without saying north or south, was it near the elevator? Or the stairway?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, it was right in front of the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Where was it with reference to the stairway?
Mr.Kaiser. It was right next to the stairway—right in the corner.
Mr.Ball. Right in the corner next to the stairway, is that right?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, what day did you find it, do you remember?
Mr.Kaiser. I couldn't tell you. It was about a week or a week and a half, somewhere in there.
Mr.Ball. Now, this statement you gave to the Federal Bureau of Investigation on the 2d of December 1963, says you talked to an agent named Pinkston; do you remember that?
Mr.Kaiser. Well, I got my boss and the FBI to go upstairs and I showed it to them.
Mr.Ball. When you saw theclipboard——
Mr.Kaiser. I went downstairs and got my boss.
Mr.Ball. What is his name?
Mr.Kaiser. William H. Shelley.
Mr.Ball. And then what happened?
Mr.Kaiser. This FBI was standing there with me—he was standing there then and I told him I had a clipboard laying up there with the orders.
Mr.Ball. Do you think it would have been around December 2?
Mr.Kaiser. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr.Ball. It was within a week after you went back to work, was it?
Mr.Kaiser. To my best knowledge—yes, sir—somewhere in there.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to find the clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. I was over there looking for the Catholic edition—teacher's edition.
Mr.Ball. Where did you see the clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. It was just laying there in the plain open—and just the plain open boxes—you see, we've got a pretty good space back there and I just noticed it laying over there.
Mr.Ball. Laying on the floor?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, it was laying on the floor.
Mr.Ball. It was on the floor?
Mr.Kaiser. It was on the floor.
Mr.Ball. How close was it to the wall?
Mr.Kaiser. It was about—oh—I would say, just guessing, about 5 or 6 inches, something like that.
Mr.Ball. From the wall and on the floor?
Mr.Kaiser. Laying on the floor.
Mr.Ball. And were there any boxes between the wall and the clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. No, not between the wall and the clipboard—there wasn't.
Mr.Ball. Were there boxes between the stairway and the clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. No, you see, here's—let me see just a second—here's the stairs right here, and we went down this way and here's the stairs this way going up and here's the—and it was laying right in here by the cards—there are about four or five cards, I guess, running in front of it—just laying between the part you go down and the part you go up.
Mr.Ball. You mean laying between the stairway up and the stairway down?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, right there in the corner.
Mr.Ball. Did you examine that clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. I didn't touch it.
Mr.Ball. Did you later touch it?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir; they got me to look at it later on.
Mr.Ball. Did you see it had some orders on it?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And were the orders dated?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What were they dated?
Mr.Kaiser. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr.Ball. Take a look at this statement which you gave to Mr. Pinkston that day and read it to yourself and see if it refreshes your memory in any way?
Mr.Kaiser. (Read statement referred to.)
Mr.Ball. Did you read that?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Does that refresh your memory now as to the orders on the clipboard?
Mr.Kaiser. I didn't know the date on the orders—I knew that there was some orders on there—I seen the orders on the clipboard.
Mr.Ball. Did you examine them to determine the date on them?
Mr.Kaiser. Did I examine those orders? No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You didn't examine the orders?
Mr.Kaiser. No, sir; I just went down and got my boss and then they took it down.
Mr.Ball. Did you make any notes of the orders?
Mr.Kaiser. I didn't, sir.
Mr.Ball. Of either the names on the orders or the date of the orders?
Mr.Kaiser. No, sir; now, my boss may have.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all. Did you fill the orders, then, yourself?
Mr.Kaiser. No, sir; not them, I didn't.
Mr.Ball. You turned these over to your boss?
Mr.Kaiser. You see, I went down and got them and they went down and got them and they handled them.
Mr.Ball. That's all, Mr. Kaiser, and thanks very much for coming up.
This will be written up and you can come down and read it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature, if you want to, and we can send it on without a signature.
Now, we will mark these pictures we've been talking about here in your deposition as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C.
(Marked by reporter as Kaiser Exhibits Nos. A, B, C, for identification.)
Mr.Kaiser. Anything else I can do, let me know.
Mr.Ball. Do you want to waive your signature to it?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, I'll waive it.
Mr.Ball. Fine. That's okay.
Mr.Kaiser. All right.
The testimony of Frankie Kaiser was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Frankie, we have already taken your deposition and I just wanted to ask you a few more questions and you are still under oath.
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, Frankie, that clipboard you found describe it—what was it?
Mr.Kaiser. It was made out of paper and tape and a little piece of pasteboard.
Mr.Ball. Who made it?
Mr.Kaiser. I did.
Mr.Ball. When?
Mr.Kaiser. Well, right after I started there—it had been a long time ago.
Mr.Ball. And how was it you weren't using it on this day?
Mr.Kaiser. You see, when he first startedthere——
Mr.Ball. Who is "he"?
Mr.Kaiser. Lee—when he first started to work there he got my clipboard and started using it.
Mr.Ball. Did you give it to him to use?
Mr.Kaiser. No, he just picked it up and started using it and I just went and made me another one.
Mr.Ball. You recognized that clipboard when you saw it?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, because my name was all over it.
Mr.Ball. Your name was on it, too?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You put your name "Frankie Kaiser" on it?
Mr.Kaiser. You see, it don't do no good to get a clipboard around here—everybody is always running off with it.
Mr.Ball. That's the reason you put your name on it?
Mr.Kaiser. He come up and got it and started using it and I just let him keep it and made me another one.
Mr.Ball. Now, here is a picture which is marked in a group of pictures as No. 36, but which I will mark as Exhibit A to your deposition.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibit A, for identification.)
Mr.Ball. Does this show the place where the clipboard was found, or do you know?
Mr.Kaiser. It wasn't found there—it was found on the floor.
Mr.Ball. Where on the floor?
Mr.Kaiser. Behind these cartons—between there and the wall.
Mr.Ball. Behind which cartons?
Mr.Kaiser. Right in here (indicating).
Mr.Ball. Which cartons—it was found behind—are the cartons in the picture—it wasn't found where it is circled there?
Mr.Kaiser. It wasn't found where it circled—there—it was found on the floor.
Mr.Ball. Put a big "X" on the carton behind which it was found.
Mr.Kaiser. I'll put it on this one—it was found between that and the wall. (Witness placed "X" on the pictures requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. You have marked an "X" on the carton—between that carton and the wall the clipboard was found.
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, between these row of cartons right over there.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you later find clothing?
Mr.Kaiser. I just found the coat there—I didn't even know it was his until somebody told me it was. I thought they were kidding.
Mr.Ball. This is Commission Exhibit 163—do you recognize that blue jacket?
Mr.Kaiser. That's the one I found.
Mr.Ball. Where did you find it—tell me first.
Mr.Kaiser. It was in the window sill.
Mr.Ball. In what room?
Mr.Kaiser. In the domino room.
Mr.Ball. Now, I show you a picture, No. 17, this is marked—does this show the window?
Mr.Kaiser. Right down in here.
Mr.Ball. There is a jacket showing in that window, is that where the jacket was found?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes, sir; but it was laying behind this in the window.
Mr.Ball. It wasn't found in the position of the jacket shown in the picture?
Mr.Kaiser. No; it sure wasn't.
Mr.Ball. But was it the same window?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And the window sill is shown there too?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes; it is.
Mr.Ball. I show you a picture which is marked Exhibit 18, does this show the place where the jacket was found?
Mr.Kaiser. Right over in here.
Mr.Ball. Where—put an "X" there—it's in the window sill?
Mr.Kaiser. Right.
(Marked diagram with an "X".)
Mr.Ball. There is an Exhibit 17, which shows the corner of the domino room and the window and it is marked as Exhibit B and the picture marked No. 18, which shows the window sill, bearing an "X" placed there by the witness, and is marked as Exhibit "C". Will you initial that "C" please?
Mr.Kaiser. (Initialed instrument as requested.)
Mr.Ball. That's "FK".
I believe we are through, now, Frankie, thank you very much.
Mr.Kaiser. That's all right.
Mr.Ball. You'll waive this signature too?
Mr.Kaiser. Yes.
(Instruments marked by the reporter as Kaiser Exhibits B and C, for identification.)