Mr.Murphy. No; I couldn't say.
Mr.Ball. Now, were there any other people besides the two officers on this railroad overpass?
Mr.Murphy. There were about 8 or 10—from what I could see—about 8 or 10 men dressed in the overalls and they appeared to be railroad employees.
Mr.Ball. Can you mark in their positions, approximately?
Mr.Murphy. Well, they were in a group right in the center of Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. They were all together?
Mr.Murphy. Yes; it appeared that they were in a group (Witness Murphy drew circle indicating presence of persons heretofore mentioned as requested by Counsel Ball).
Mr.Ball. You have drawn a circle there?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And mark that (6).
(Witness Murphy marked the diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.)
Mr.Ball. And in that circle there were about how many?
Mr.Murphy. 8 to 10 persons.
Mr.Ball. There were 8 to 10 persons approximately, dressed in overalls?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any other people on the railroad overpass?
Mr.Murphy. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Could you see the motorcade on Houston from your position (1)?
Mr.Murphy. Yes; I could.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the President's car turn the corner of Main and Houston?
Mr.Murphy. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. That was in your view, was it?
Mr.Murphy. Yes; it was.
Mr.Ball. Was the corner of Houston and Elm within your view?
Mr.Murphy. Just a portion of it—you lose sight of it there for just a few seconds, as it makes the turn. Well, you lose sight of it. There is some kind of a—on that part there is a concrete, oh, I don't know what you would call it—kind of a framework—it appears to be.
Mr.Ball. In other words, there is an obstruction to your view?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. From where you were standing at Position (1)?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And the corner of the intersection of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were you able to see the President's car after it had turned west on Elm from Houston?
Mr.Murphy. Well, again there, you just get a very short view of it before it goes out of sight then, going down that hill.
Mr.Ball. You heard shots, did you?
Mr.Murphy. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Now, from the time you saw the President's car turn north on Houston from Main and until you heard the shots, what direction were you looking?
Mr.Murphy. I was looking in an easterly direction.
Mr.Ball. Toward what?
Mr.Murphy. Toward the motorcade—towards the President's car.
Mr.Ball. Did you keep the motorcade in sight at all times?
Mr.Murphy. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anything unusual occur in this group of railroad men where you have marked Position (6)?
Mr.Murphy. No, I didn't—I did not.
Mr.Ball. Anybody armed there?
Mr.Murphy. No, not that I could tell.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me what direction the policemen were looking who were at Position (4) and (5)?
Mr.Murphy. They appeared to be looking in an easterly direction also.
Mr.Ball. The direction of the motorcade?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And did you see other individuals on that railroad overpass except the ones you have described?
Mr.Murphy. No, just that group that I have described.
Mr.Ball. Now, you say you heard something—heard shots?
Mr.Murphy. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Describe to me your best recollection as to what you heard?
Mr.Murphy. Well, I heard—I knew they were shots as soon as I heard them, but I thought at first it was—it sounded like a shotgun, and then I got the three shots and there were so many echoes and everything—then I did determine it sounded more like a rifle. I do quite a bit of hunting and I determined it sounded more like a rifle.
Mr.Ball. Those shots came from what direction?
Mr.Murphy. Well, just from the direction I was looking—that's all I could tell. They came from an easterly direction, from where I was standing.
Mr.Ball. And were there echoes?
Mr.Murphy. Yes, quite a few.
Mr.Ball. Did the men who were on the overpass at Position (5) do anything?
Mr.Murphy. I don't recall—on that overpass—right after the shots, I did see then a group of people running up the side of this embankment on Elm and running. That would be here—right in here.
Mr.Ball. To the north of Elm?
Mr.Murphy. To the north of Elm.
Mr.Ball. Would you put an arrow showing the direction they were running and mark that arrow as "7"—that's the direction you saw people running?
Mr.Murphy. (Marked diagram as requested by Counsel Ball.) Yes, they were running up in this direction and then in behind this Book Depository. Oh, I could tell a lot of them were photographers, because I could see their cameras in their hands and then a number of other people, and then I did see some officers also running in that direction.
Mr.Ball. Did you see what the railroad men did who were at Position (6) on your map?
Mr.Murphy. No; because right at that time that traffic began backing up on the freeway and I had turned in to try to keep them moving, but I found that I couldn't move them because it was blocked down below me, north of me and there was traffic just stacked up from where the other officers had it stopped there.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay at your position?
Mr.Murphy. Well, I stayed until, I guess, it was about maybe 3 minutes after we heard the shots and then the broadcast came over the radio that there had been a shooting—the President had been shot—and then I went towards the Book Depository.
I got on my motor and went towards the Book Depository then—off of the freeway; and then was there up around the Book Depository for the next—I would say hour or hour and a half at least.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to any witnesses?
Mr.Murphy. I did pick up or talk to three or four people that said they had seen things and said they heard different things, and I took them to the sheriff's office across the street.
Mr.Ball. Do you knew what their names were?
Mr.Murphy. No, sir; I couldn't tell you. I turned them over to the investigators there with the sheriff's department—the district attorney's investigators, that's who they were.
Mr.Ball. You didn't make any notes of their names?
Mr.Murphy. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember now what any of them told you?
Mr.Murphy. Well, one man in particular—he was standing on Elm—he wasstanding right about here where we have marked Position (7), and he claimed that he heard two shots above him and behind him, and one shot from up around the edge of this park, and another man claimed that he had been standing nearly in this same position—he was standing here on the street and he claimed that all the shots he heard came from overhead to his rear.
Mr.Ball. That would be near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Murphy. Yes, towards that Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. Did you go on the police radio and make any announcement or statement?
Mr.Murphy. No, sir; I didn't. It was so jammed, I didn't make any.
Mr.Ball. I would like to have this marked as Exhibit A to your deposition, which is illustrative of your testimony.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as Murphy Exhibit No. A, for identification.)
Mr.Ball. This will be written up and you can come in and look it over and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature if you wish. It is your option—what would you like to do?
Mr.Murphy. Well, if it's necessary, I will sign it. If it isn't, that's perfectly all right with me.
Mr.Ball. It isn't necessary.
Mr.Murphy. Well, that's all right then.
Mr.Ball. Then, you will waive signature?
Mr.Murphy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Thanks very much for coming in.
Mr.Murphy. All right—certainly.
The testimony of Roger D. Craig was taken at 2:35 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Roger Craig, do you want to stand and raise your right hand, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony that you're about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Craig. I do.
Mr.Belin. You can be seated.
Mr.Belin. Will you please state your full name?
Mr.Craig. Roger Dean Craig.
Mr.Belin. That's (spelling) D-e-a-n?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And where do you live, Mr. Craig?
Mr.Craig. 6215 Overlook Drive, Dallas.
Mr.Belin. And what's your occupation?
Mr.Craig. Deputy Sheriff.
Mr.Belin. For the Dallas County Sheriff's Department?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. How old are you, Mr. Craig?
Mr.Craig. 27.
Mr.Belin. Were you raised here in Texas?
Mr.Craig. No. I was born in Wisconsin, raised in Minnesota; and ran away from home when I was 12 and traveled all over the country.
Mr.Belin. When you were 12?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you have any further schooling after you were 12—or not?
Mr.Craig. No; I took high school equivalent test in the Service in Japanwhen—uh—I was 19, and passed it and got my high school equivalent test—I mean, my diploma.
Mr.Belin. Were you in the Service, then?
Mr.Craig. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Belin. In what branch?
Mr.Craig. I was in the Army.
Mr.Belin. And how long were you in the Army?
Mr.Craig. 2 years.
Mr.Belin. Before you joined the Army, what did you do? Were you living with anyone or were you on your own—or what?
Mr.Craig. No; I was married to a girl who lived out in Mesquite.
Mr.Belin. Where?
Mr.Craig. Mesquite. It's a suburb of Dallas. It's not a town.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Well, let me go back a little bit. You said you ran away from home when you were 12?
Mr.Craig. Uh-huh.
Mr.Belin. And then where did you live?
Mr.Craig. I lived in South Dakota, worked on ranches up there, and then Wyoming, Nebraska, Colorado, New Mexico, Oklahoma.
Mr.Belin. Well, with any relatives—or were they friends, or what?
Mr.Craig. No, no; just jobs. Just working here and there.
Mr.Belin. And then you were married when youwere——
Mr.Craig. 16.
Mr.Belin. 16. And where?
Mr.Craig. Here in Texas.
Mr.Belin. Here in Texas.
And then you enlisted in the Army when?
Mr.Craig. I volunteered for the draft when I was 17.
Mr.Belin. And then you went in the Service?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. And served overseas?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. You were discharged when, then?
Mr.Craig. In—uh—October of 1955, I believe. In September or October of 1955, sir, is when I got out.
Mr.Belin. Was it an honorable discharge?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you were in the service?
Mr.Craig. I served in the—uh—motor pool of the 92d Armored Field.
Mr.Belin. And, after you got out of service, what did you do?
Mr.Craig. Well, jobs were kind of hard to get. I got a job as a dishwasher in a cafe, then cook. Then I did construction work for a while. And then I went to work for the Purex Corporation out on Storey Lane here in Dallas—2929 Storey Lane. Then I worked for them for about 3½ years. Then, I came down to the sheriff's office.
Mr.Belin. Now, what would your job have been there with the Purex Corp.?
Mr.Craig. Packager. I just packaged the Purex.
Mr.Belin. And when did you go to work for the Dallas County Sheriff's Office?
Mr.Craig. In October—October the 9th of 1959.
Mr.Belin. And you've been there ever since?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Are you married?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Family?
Mr.Craig. Yes; I have a girl and a boy and a stepboy.
Mr.Belin. Now, Mr. Craig, I want to take you back to November 22d, 1963, and ask you whether or not you were working at the sheriff's office that day?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where is the sheriff's office located?
Mr.Craig. 505 Main Street.
Mr.Belin. And where is 505 Main Street? Is it on the north or the south side of Main?
Mr.Craig. It's on the north side of Main at the corner of Houston.
Mr.Belin. It runs from Houston east to Record Street there? Is that Record Street there?
Mr.Craig. No; the sheriff's office actually runs north from Main over to Elm Street. It covers that entire block.
Mr.Belin. How far east does it go—or is it just a half-block east?
Mr.Craig. No; it's just a half block to—uh—well, it's divided, then the Records Building begins and goes on to Record Street.
Mr.Belin. To Record Street.
Well, will you state what you did that day from about noon on—on November 22?
Mr.Craig. I stood out in front waiting for the President's motorcade. I went out there about—oh—5 minutes after 12, I guess; waited directly in front of the front door on the curb.
Mr.Belin. That would be on the north curb of Main?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. All right. Then what happened?
Mr.Craig. Well, we waited there for several minutes—and—uh—the motorcade finally came by.
Mr.Belin. About how fast was the motorcade going when you saw it on Main Street?
Mr.Craig. Oh, just barely moving. I don't know. It was just barely moving. I couldn't judge any miles per hour.
Mr.Belin. Well, 5, 10, 15, 20—what?
Mr.Craig. Probably going—probably 3 or 4 miles an hour.
Mr.Belin. All right.
You saw the President's car?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. You saw the motorcade reach the intersection of Main and Houston?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And then it turned?
Mr.Craig. Turned north on Houston.
Mr.Belin. About how fast was it going as it turned north on Houston?
Mr.Craig. Oh, about the same. They—uh—they were going about the same speed as they made the corner.
Mr.Belin. Were there any motorcycle policemen alongside the President's car?
Mr.Craig. Uh—not directly beside it. They was, I believe, on the front part of it and—uh—I believe behind it—just a little ways behind the back fender there was a motorcycle officer—one on each side of the car, as I remember.
Mr.Belin. The ones on the front—where would the back wheels of the motorcycles have been with relation to the front wheels of the President's car?
Mr.Craig. Uh—just in front of the bumper because they came by and moved everybody back, you know, as the car approached us.
Mr.Belin. And what about the motorcycles that were just behind the car? Where were the front wheels of those motorcycles with relation to the back wheels or the back bumper of the President's car?
Mr.Craig. About equal to the back bumper.
Mr.Belin. All right.
You saw the President's car, then, turn north on Houston?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then, would you describe what you saw and heard and did?
Mr.Craig. Well, there were several other cars that came by and—uh——
Mr.Belin. Did you watch those?
Mr.Craig. Some of them we watched. We watched Mr. Decker's car, of course, and a few of the others.
Mr.Belin. Now, where was Mr. Decker's car?
Mr.Craig. I believe he came by just before the President's. I believe there were some dignitaries and things before that, and then we watched the President'sand—uh—oh, and then about two or three cars after the President's car had passed. And then we were just standing there looking around, you know.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what happened?
Mr.Craig. Then I heard an explosion.
Mr.Belin. When you heard the explosion, what did you do?
Mr.Craig. Well, the first—nothing. I wrestled with my mind. I knew it was a shot but—uh—I didn't want to believe it. But, a few seconds later, I heard another explosion and, this time, I knew it was a shot. And, as I began to run, I heard a third one. I was running toward Houston Street.
Mr.Belin. How many explosions did you hear altogether?
Mr.Craig. Three.
Mr.Belin. About how far were these noises apart?
Mr.Craig. The first one was—uh—about three seconds—2 or 3 seconds.
Mr.Belin. Two or 3 seconds between the first and the second?
Mr.Craig. Well, it was quite a pause between there. It could have been a little longer.
Mr.Belin. And what about between the second and third?
Mr.Craig. Not more than 2 seconds. It was—they were real rapid.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr.Craig. I continued running across Houston Street, across the parkway, across Elm Street and, by this time, the motorcade had went on down Elm Street and I ran up to the railroad yard and—uh—started to look around when the people began to all travel over that way. So, I began moving people back out of the railroad yard.
Mr.Belin. Where did the noises or shots sound to you like they came from?
Mr.Craig. It was hard to tell because—uh—they had an echo, you know. There was actually two explosions with each one. There was the—uh—the shot and then the echo from it. So, it was hard to tell.
Mr.Belin. Did people tell you, as you ran over there, where they thought the shots came from?
Mr.Craig. No; as I reached the railroad yard, I talked to a girl getting her car that—uh—thought they came from the park area on the north side of Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. Did she say why she thought they came from there?
Mr.Craig. No; she was standing there and it sounded real loud at that particularpoint——
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. And she thought that's where they came from.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone say they had seen anything—such as a rifle?
Mr.Craig. Yes; later on. A few minutes after that—I had taken this girl to one of our criminal investigators—and was talking to some other people. I talked to a young couple and the boy said he saw two men on the—uh—sixth floor of the Book Depository Building over there; one of them had a rifle with the telescopic sight on it—but he thought they were Secret Service agents on guard and didn't report it. This was about—uh—oh, he said, 15 minutes before the motorcade ever arrived.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember if that boy's name would have been Arnold Rowland—(spelling) R-o-w-l-a-n-d?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Does that sound like it?
Mr.Craig. Yes; it sounds like the name—yes.
Mr.Belin. His wife might be Barbara Rowland?
Mr.Craig. Yes; I believe her name was Barbara.
Mr.Belin. Before you talked to this couple, did you do anything else or talk with anyone before you got back with them?
Mr.Craig. Well, I looked around, you know, for just—after I turned this girl over to Mr. Lewis—I began looking around and talking to people to see if they'd seen anything. And that's when I ran onto this man and his wife.
Mr.Belin. And about what time do you think this was in relation to—from when you heard the shots to the time that you talked to this young couple?
Mr.Craig. I don't know. 10 minutes, maybe.
Mr.Belin. You believe you talked to this young couple 10 minutes after the shots were fired?
Mr.Craig. It might have been 10 minutes.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then, what did you do? But, first of all, let me ask you this: Did this girl say that she saw any person with a rifle?
Mr.Craig. No; no.
Mr.Belin. Now, the boy—where did he say that he saw the man with the rifle?
Mr.Craig. On the—uh—west end of the building on the sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. Would that be—when you say "the west end,"—you mean, the west end of the south side, or the west side?
Mr.Craig. The west end of the south side.
Mr.Belin. Of the sixth floor?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. Did he point out the window to you?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. From the west corner, where would this window have been? Right next to the west corner or two or three windows away, or what?
Mr.Craig. It was the—uh—the second window from the corner.
They were walking, you know, back and forth.
Mr.Belin. He said that the two men were walking back and forth?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, when you talk about second window, this building is located near you, is it not?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. This is the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Each window was sort of a pair of windows. And, on the south side, there probably are around seven pairs of windows.
Mr.Craig. Uh-huh.
Mr.Belin. Would this have been—when you say "the second window from the west end"—by that do you mean it was the first pair of windows but the easternmost one of that pair, or do you mean it was in the second pair of windows from the west end—or don't you remember?
Mr.Craig. No; I don't remember that now.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Did he say anything else about what he had seen with this man with the rifle?
Mr.Craig. Yeah; he said he looked back a few minutes later and—uh—the other man was gone, and there was just one man—the man with the rifle.
Mr.Belin. He said he looked back again and just the man with the rifle was there?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. Did he say how long or when the last time was that he saw the man with the rifle?
Mr.Craig. I believe this second time he looked was the—uh—the last time he looked up there.
Mr.Belin. And about how long was that before the shots were fired?
Mr.Craig. Well, he said he first seen him—saw the two men about 15 minutes before the motorcade arrived.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. And he didn't say how long after that he looked back up there to just see the one man. He just said—uh—a few minutes later he looked back up.
Mr.Belin. A few minutes later, he looked back up and he saw one man with the rifle?
Mr.Craig. Just the one man.
Mr.Belin. Did he say what the one man was doing with the rifle?
Mr.Craig. He said he was holding it down to his side and just looking out the window.
Mr.Belin. Did he say how far the man was from the window?
Mr.Craig. No; huh-uh.
Mr.Belin. Did he say in what direction the man was looking out the window?
Mr.Craig. He was looking out in a southerly direction. Straight ahead. You know, straight out.
Mr.Belin. When he said the man was holding it at his side, would this be—did he say it was, in military terminology, in any kind of a position to hold a weapon?
Mr.Craig. No; this I don't go into with him. I turned him over to Officer Lewis for interrogation.
Mr.Belin. Would this be Deputy Sheriff Lemmy Lewis—(spelling) L-e-m-m-y L-e-w-i-s?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. He is a criminal investigator of the Dallas Sheriff's Office?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. And then you left this young couple?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. Now, about how long would this have been after the shooting that you left them with Deputy Sheriff Lewis?
Mr.Craig. Well, I didn't talk with them long. I talked with them—all the time that he told me what he saw and the time that I turned him over to officer Lewis, was probably—uh—3 minutes—3 or 4 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. Because—uh—I took him immediately up there to him when he told me what he'd seen.
Mr.Belin. By this time, had anyone said the shots might have come from that School Book Depository Building—do you know?
Mr.Craig. No. I don't—uh—I don't recall that. I don't believe so.
Mr.Belin. At this time, do you know whether or not they had sealed off in any way the entrance or the building—the School Book Depository Building— or not?
Mr.Craig. No; no. I didn't notice that.
Mr.Belin. You didn't notice that?
Mr.Craig. No.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now, about how many minutes after the assassination or shooting was it that you turned this couple over to Sheriff Lemmy Lewis?
Mr.Craig. Oh, it was about—well, I guess, 12 minutes—10, 12 minutes. Something like that.
Mr.Belin. Ten or 12 minutes after the shooting?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. Then, what did you do?
Mr.Craig. Well, I looked around for a little bit, you know, just observing the people and things, and Officer Lewis turned them over to someone else, as I recall, and sent them to the sheriff's office—to Mr. Decker's office. And then it was either Lemmy Lewis or Buddy Walthers—(spelling) W-a-l-t-h-e-r-s, one of our other criminal investigators, said that one of the bullets had ricocheted off the south curb of Elm Street. So, Officer Lewis and I crossed—walked down the hill and crossed Elm Street to look for the place where the bullet might have hit.
Mr.Belin. Did he say why he believed one of the bullets ricocheted off the south curb of Elm?
Mr.Craig. No; he just said that someone said that one of them had. So, we checked it.
Mr.Belin. So, you searched the south curb of Elm?
Mr.Craig. Right.
Mr.Belin. Did you find anything there to indicate the ricocheted bullet?
Mr.Craig. No; we didn't find anything at that time. Now, as we were searching, we had just got over across the street, when I heard someone whistle.
Mr.Belin. Now, about how many minutes was this after the time that you had turned that young couple over to Lemmy Lewis that you heard this whistle?
Mr.Craig. Fourteen or 15 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Fourteen or 15 minutes?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Was this, you mean, after the shooting?
Mr.Craig. After the—from the time I heard the first shot.
Mr.Belin. All right.
You heard someone whistle?
Mr.Craig. Yes. So I turned and—uh—saw a man start to run down the hill on the north side of Elm Street, running down toward Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. And, about where was he with relation to the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Craig. Uh—directly across that little side street that runs in front of it. He was on the south side of it.
Mr.Belin. And he was on the south side of what would be an extension of Elm Street, if Elm Street didn't curve down into the underpass?
Mr.Craig. Right; right.
Mr.Belin. And where was he with relation to the west side of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Craig. Right by the—uh—well, actually, directly in line with the west corner—the southwest corner.
Mr.Belin. He was directly in line with the southwest corner of the building?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And he was on the south curve of that street that runs right in front of the building there?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And he started to run toward Elm Street as it curves under the underpass?
Mr.Craig. Yes; directly down the grassy portion of the park.
Mr.Belin. All right.
And then what did you see happen?
Mr.Craig. I saw a light-colored station wagon, driving real slow, coming west on Elm Street from Houston. Uh—actually, it was nearly in line with him. And the driver was leaning to his right looking up the hill at the man running down.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. And the station wagon stopped almost directly across from me. And—uh—the man continued down the hill and got in the station wagon. And I attempted to cross the street. I wanted to talk to both of them. But the—uh—traffic was so heavy I couldn't get across the street. And—uh—they were gone before Icould——
Mr.Belin. Where did the station wagon head?
Mr.Craig. West on Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. Under the triple underpass?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Could you describe the man that you saw running down toward the station wagon?
Mr.Craig. Oh, he was a white male in his twenties, five nine, five eight, something like that; about 140 to 150; had kind of medium brown sandy hair—you know, it was like it'd been blown—you know, he'd been in the wind or something—it was all wild-looking; had on—uh—bluetrousers——
Mr.Belin. What shade of blue? Dark blue, medium or light?
Mr.Craig. No; medium, probably; I'd say medium.
And, a—uh—light tan shirt, as I remember it.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about him?
Mr.Craig. No; nothing except that he looked like he was in an awful hurry.
Mr.Belin. What about the man who was driving the car?
Mr.Craig. Now, he struck me, at first, as being a colored male. He was very dark complected, had real dark short hair, and was wearing a thin white-looking jacket—uh, it looked like the short windbreaker type, you know, because it was real thin and had the collar that came out over the shoulder (indicating with hands) like that—just a short jacket.
Mr.Belin. You say that he first struck you that way. Do you now think that he was a Negro?
Mr.Craig. Well, I don't—I didn't get a real good look at him. But my first glance at him—I was more interested in the man coming down the hill—but my first glance at him, he struck me as a Negro.
Mr.Belin. Is that what your opinion is today?
Mr.Craig. Well, I—I couldn't say, because I didn't get a good enough look at him.
Mr.Belin. What kind and what color station wagon was it?
Mr.Craig. It was light colored—almost—uh—it looked white to me.
Mr.Belin. What model or make was it?
Mr.Craig. I thought it was a Nash.
Mr.Belin. Why would you think it was a Nash?
Mr.Craig. Because it had a built-in luggage rack on the top. And—uh—at the time, this was the only type car I could fit with that type luggage rack.
Mr.Belin. A Nash Rambler—is that what you're referring to?
Mr.Craig. Yes; with a rack on the the back portion of the car, you know.
Mr.Belin. Did it have a Texas license plate, or not?
Mr.Craig. It had the same color. I couldn't see the—uh—name with the numbers on it. I could just barely make them out. They were at an angle where I couldn't make the numbers of the—uh—any of the writing on it. But—uh—I'm sure it was a Texas plate.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about this incident that you can recall?
Mr.Craig. No; notthat——
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr.Craig. Well, then—uh, I went back up to the front of the School Book Depository—rather, I went up to it and noticed that it was sealed off. There was an officer standing guard in it with a shotgun in the doorway; several officers crowded around in front of it.
Mr.Belin. How long would this have been after the shots were fired?
Mr.Craig. I'd say nearly 20 minutes.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Craig. And they were calling for hand lights to search the attic of the building. At that time—uh—they thought the man was still in the building. So, they were calling for hand lights to search the building.
So, I went back across to the sheriff's office and got some hand lights and took them back over to them.
Then, I went up on the sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. Why did you go up on the sixth floor?
Mr.Craig. Well, someone said that's where the shots came from. One of the city officers, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Craig. So, we went to the sixth floor where—uh—some empty cartridges were found.
Mr.Belin. Did you see the empty cartridges when they were found?
Mr.Craig. I didn't see them when they were found. I saw them laying on the floor.
Mr.Belin. About how soon after they were found did you see them laying on the floor?
Mr.Craig. Oh, a couple of minutes. I went right on over there. I was at the far north end of the building. The cartridges were on the southeast corner.
Mr.Belin. Well, how did you know they had been found there? Did someone yell—or what?
Mr.Craig. Yes; someone yelled across the room that "here's the shells."
Mr.Belin. Do you remember who that was?
Mr.Craig. No; I couldn't recognize the voice.
Mr.Belin. All right. Then, what did you do?
Mr.Craig. I went over there and—uh—didn't get too close because the shells were laying on the ground and there was—uh—oh, a sack and a bunchof things laying over there. So, you know, not to bother the area, I just went back across.
Mr.Belin. Now, you say, there was a sack laying there?
Mr.Craig. Yes; I believe it was laying on top of a box, if I'm not mistaken.
Mr.Belin. How big a sack was that?
Mr.Craig. It was a paper bag (indicating with hands)—a small paper bag.
Mr.Belin. Well, the kind of paper bag that you carry your lunch in?
Mr.Craig. Yeah,—uh-huh.
Mr.Belin. Was it more than a foot long?
Mr.Craig. I don't know. I think it was rolled up kind of.
Mr.Belin. You think it was rolled up?
Mr.Craig. Yeah; you know, kind of crushed up.
Mr.Belin. Was there any long sack laying in the floor there that you remember seeing, or not?
Mr.Craig. No; I don't remember seeing any.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember seeing any thing there other than the shells?
Mr.Craig. No; not—uh—not anything that caught my eye.
Mr.Belin. Where do you remember seeing the shells?
Mr.Craig. They were laying on the—uh—well, as you're facing thewindow——
Mr.Belin. As you are facing the window and you're looking south?
Mr.Craig. The southeast corner window and you're looking south, the shells would be on your right and back away from the window, as I recall, about a foot.
Mr.Belin. Do you recall any of the shells right up against the wall at all—or, don't you recall?
Mr.Craig. No; I don't; I didn't look that close.
Mr.Belin. How many shells did you see there?
Mr.Craig. I saw three.
Mr.Belin. Did anyone move any boxes in order to get in there—do you know?
Mr.Craig. Now, that, I don't know?
Mr.Belin. Do you know if anyone moved any boxes in the window?
Mr.Craig. That I don't know either.
Mr.Belin. Did you look very closely at the area where the shells were found?
Mr.Craig. Uh—no, because the identification men hadn't arrived, and we didn't want to stir up anything.
Mr.Belin. Who was there that you remember?
Mr.Craig. Oh, Officer Mooney with our department—Luke Mooney; Officer Boone—Eugene Boone, with our department; myself; and some city officers that I didn't know. Those are the only that I remember. You know, there were several other people around but I didn't know them.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what did you do after that?
Mr.Craig. They wanted to search the building for the weapon, so I went to the—I went to the northeast corner of the building and began to search west.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. Uh—everybody else took a different spot. And as I got nearly to the west end of the building, Officer Boone—Eugene Boone with the sheriff's office—hollered that here was the rifle.
Mr.Belin. How far were you from Officer Boone when he hollered?
Mr.Craig. About 8-foot.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Craig. I went over to the—uh—cluster of boxes where he was standing and looked down between the boxes and saw the rifle lying on the floor.
Mr.Belin. When you say "between the cluster of boxes," could you describe which way the boxes were?
Mr.Craig. There was a row going east to west on the north side of the weapon, and a box going east to west on the south side of the weapon, and—uh—if I remember, uh—as you'd look down, you had to look kinda back underthe north stack of boxes to see the rifle. It was pushed kinda under—uh—or up tight against 'em—you know, where it would be hard to see. And, of course, both ends of the rows were closed off where you couldn't see through 'em. You had to get up and look in 'em.
Mr.Belin. You are gesturing with your hand there—would you say that the boxes, then, as you gestured, were in the shape of what I would call a rectangular "O", so to speak?
Mr.Craig. Yes, yes, uh-huh.
Mr.Belin. And about how high were the walls of this enclosure, so to speak?
Mr.Craig. Well, it—it was different heights. Now, the part where I looked in particularly was about—uh—oh, was about 5-foot.
Mr.Belin. All right.
And you gestured there in such a way that you had to lean over and look straight down? Would that be a fair statement of your gestures?
Mr.Craig. Yes; yes. You had to lean over the boxes and look down.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what happened? After you found this, did people come over—or what?
Mr.Craig. Yes; several other people came over.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember about what time this was?
Mr.Craig. No; I had no idea then how long it had been.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Do you remember who else came over?
Mr.Craig. Oh, Officer Mooney and—uh—several of the city officers; Will Fritz came over—Capt. Will Fritz, with the city of Dallas; some of his investigators, I didn't know them; and a criminal identification man, I believe, from the city of Dallas, then came over there to take pictures of the weapon.
Mr.Belin. The weapon was moved by the time the pictures were taken?
Mr.Craig. No; no. The pictures were taken as the weapon was found lying there.
Mr.Belin. Did you see the pictures taken of the shells?
Mr.Craig. No.
Mr.Belin. You don't know whether or not anything was moved in that window before this?
Mr.Craig. No; no.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Anything else happen up to that time that you haven't related here that you feel might be important?
Mr.Craig. No. Uh—I'm thinking it was about this time—uh—that we got the news there had been a city officer shot over in Oak Cliff.
Mr.Belin. And then what happened?
Mr.Craig. Well, there was just—uh—of course, everybody stayed there, you know, and sort of mingled around and—uh—I then went back downstairs after the weapon was picked up. The identification man from the city of Dallas then, after he took his pictures, picked the weapon up and handed it to Will Fritz.
And I then went back downstairs and over to the sheriff's office.
Mr.Belin. All right.
At this time, do you know, did any person say that any employee in the School Building was missing up until the time you left?
Mr.Craig. No; I don't recall anybody saying anything to that effect.
Mr.Belin. Had any description gone out for anyone that you know of with regard to the shooting?
Mr.Craig. I think—uh—no description of the suspect in the shooting of the officer hadn't went out at this time,but——
Mr.Belin. You don't know of any other that went out at that time?
Mr.Craig. No; no.
Mr.Belin. All right. Then you went back over to the Dallas Sheriff's Office?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Craig. Well, I think I gave a statement to Rosemary Allen over there, as did all the officers, as to what they were doing at the time, you know.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Craig. And—uh—then I kept thinking about this man that had run down the hill and got in this car, so—uh—it was about, oh, I don't recall exactly the time, nearly 5 or something like that, or after, when—uh—the city had apprehended a suspect in the city officer's shooting. And—uh—information was floating around that they were trying to connect him with the assassination of the President—as the assassin.
So—uh, in the meantime, I kept thinking about this subject that had run and got in the car. So, I called Captain Fritz' office and talked to one of his officers and—uh—told him what I had saw and give him a description of the man, asked him how it fit the man they had picked up as a suspect.
And—uh—it was then they asked me to come up and look at him at Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what did you do?
Mr.Craig. I drove up to Fritz' office about, oh, after 5—about 5:30 or something like that—and—uh—talked to Captain Fritz and told him what I had saw. And he took me in his office—I believe it was his office—it was a little office, and had the suspect setting in a chair behind a desk—beside the desk. And another gentleman, I didn't know him, he was sitting in another chair to my left as I walked in the office.
And Captain Fritz asked me was this the man I saw—and I said, "Yes," it was.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Will you describe the man you saw in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Craig. Oh, he was sitting down but—uh—he had the same medium brown hair; it was still—well, it was kinda wild looking; he was slender, and—uh—what I could tell of him sitting there, he was—uh—short. By that, I mean not—myself, I'm five eleven—he was shorter than I was. And—uh—fairly light build.
Mr.Belin. Could you see his trousers?
Mr.Craig. No; I couldn't see his trousers at all.
Mr.Belin. What about his shirt?
Mr.Craig. I believe, as close as I can remember, a T-shirt—a white T-shirt.
Mr.Belin. All right.
But you didn't see him in a lineup? You just saw him sitting there?
Mr.Craig. No; he was sitting there by himself in a chair—off to one side.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then, what did Captain Fritz say and what did you say and what did the suspect say?
Mr.Craig. Captain Fritz then asked him about the—uh—he said, "What about this station wagon?"
And the suspect interrupted him and said, "That station wagon belongs to Mrs. Paine"—I believe is what he said. "Don't try to tie her into this. She had nothing to do with it."
And—uh—Captain Fritz then told him, as close as I can remember, that, "All we're trying to do is find out what happened, and this man saw you leave from the scene."
And the suspect again interrupted Captain Fritz and said, "I told you people I did." And—uh—yeah—then, he said—then he continued and he said, "Everybody will know who I am now."
And he was leaning over the desk. At this time, he had risen partially out of the chair and leaning over the desk, looking directly at Captain Fritz.
Mr.Belin. What was he wearing—or could you see the color of his trousers as he leaned over the desk?
Mr.Craig. No; because he never—he just leaned up, you know, sort of forward—not actually up, just out of his chair like that (indicating) forward.
Mr.Belin. Then, did you say anything more?
Mr.Craig. No; I then left.
Mr.Belin. Well, in other words, the only thing you ever said was, "This was the man,"—or words to that effect?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did Captain Fritz say anything more.
Mr.Craig. No; I don't believe—not while I was there.
Mr.Belin. Did the suspect say anything more?
Mr.Craig. Not that I recall.
Mr.Belin. Did you say anything about that it was a Rambler station wagon there?
Mr.Craig. In the presence of the suspect?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Craig. No.
Mr.Belin. You don't know whether Captain Fritz said anything to the suspect about this incident before you came, do you?
Mr.Craig. No; I don't.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else that you can think of involving this interrogation at which you were present?
Mr.Craig. No. Nothing else was said after that point. I then left and give my name to the—uh—Secret Service agent and the FBI agent that was outside the office.
Mr.Belin. Anything else in connection with the assassination that you think might be important that we haven't discussed here?
Mr.Craig. No; except—uh—except for the fact that it came out later that Mrs. Paine does own a station wagon and—uh—it has a luggage rack on top. And this came out, of course, later, after I got back to the office. I didn't know about this. Buddy Walthers brought it up. I believe they went by the house and the car was parked in the driveway.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of?
Mr.Craig. No. That's all. I forgot about it and went back to work.
Mr.Belin. Now, prior to the time we had your deposition taken, we chatted for a few minutes about some of these things—is that correct?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. For instance, we talked about your conversation with this young couple—this Arnold Rowland and his wife?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything that we said before the deposition was taken that we haven't recorded here?
Mr.Craig. I don't believe so.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything that I said or you said in our conversation that is different from anything that was recorded here—to the best of your recollection?
Mr.Craig. No; except you asked me before, I believe, did I talk to any of the railroad employees.
Mr.Belin. That's right.
Mr.Craig. And I said, "No"—which I did not.
Mr.Belin. Anything else?
Mr.Craig. (Pausing before reply.) No—nothing that I recall.
Mr.Belin. In our conversation, did you just relate to me what your story was before we sat down to take the deposition?
Mr.Craig. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Will you agree to follow or to waive signing of the deposition and leave it in the Court Reporter's hands—or do you want to sign it?