The testimony of Ronald B. Fischer was taken at 11:20 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Fischer, will you rise to be sworn, please, and raise your right hand?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Fischer. I do.
Mr.Belin. Will you please state your name?
Mr.Fischer. Ronald B. Fischer.
Mr.Belin. And where do you live, Mr. Fischer?
Mr.Fischer. 4007 Flamingo Way, Mesquite, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Is this a suburb of Dallas?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is your occupation?
Mr.Fischer. I'm an auditor.
Mr.Belin. For whom?
Mr.Fischer. Dallas County auditor.
Mr.Belin. And where do you work?
Mr.Fischer. I work at 407 records building.
Mr.Belin. And where is the records building?
Mr.Fischer. That's in Dallas.
Mr.Belin. Where in Dallas?
Mr.Fischer. It covers one square block area bounded by Main, Record, Elm, and Houston.
Mr.Belin. How old are you, Mr. Fischer?
Mr.Fischer. Twenty-five.
Mr.Belin. Married?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Children?
Mr.Fischer. Two.
Mr.Belin. Did you go to school here in Dallas?
Mr.Fischer. Yes—high school, yes.
Mr.Belin. What high school did you go to?
Mr.Fischer. W. W. Samuell.
Mr.Belin. Did you complete high school or not?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Have you participated in any postgraduate work since you graduated from high school?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is that?
Mr.Fischer. I've taken courses toward an accounting degree at Arlington State College, Arlington, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Are these correspondence courses or have you actually attended the school?
Mr.Fischer. No; I've attended the school.
Mr.Belin. How long did you attend that school?
Mr.Fischer. I attended 1 year, full time and I attended 1 year, night school.
Mr.Belin. And what have you done since after you left Arlington?
Mr.Fischer. All of the time since I've left Arlington, I've been working for the Dallas County auditor—with the exception of a correspondence course that I'm taking at the present time.
Mr.Belin. Well, by that, you mean you're still working full time but you are taking the correspondence course also?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. You have been working for 4 or 5 years for the auditor's office?
Mr.Fischer. Five years.
Mr.Belin. Now, Mr. Fischer, I want to take you back to November 22, 1963, and ask you if you remember watching or getting ready to watch, the Presidential motorcade on that day? Do you remember that?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And were you with anyone else, or not?
Mr.Fischer. Bob Edwards—he works in the same office that I do.
Mr.Belin. Does he work there now?
Mr.Fischer. No; he doesn't. At the present time, he's attending a college in Oklahoma but I don't remember the name. It's in Tahlequah, I believe. I don't know the name of the college.
Mr.Belin. Could that be—I think it's [spelling] T-a-h-l-e-q-u-a-h?
Mr.Fischer. I think that's it.
Mr.Belin. Now, when did you and Mr. Edwards leave your place of employment on that day to watch the motorcade?
Mr.Fischer. Oh, about—well, let's see. We got off for lunch at a quarter of twelve and Mr. Lynn, our boss, said that we could take—go ahead and go on down the street after we got through with lunch, in other words, don't come back to the office after lunch. Just go on down the street and watch the parade. Everybody was due back after the parade was over.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Fischer. So, I went to lunch at a quarter of twelve, and ate until about 12 o'clock, and then Bob and I went down to the street—oh, 5 or 10 after 12—and we stood, at first, on Main Street right outside the records building. And then about 12:15 or 12:20, we were trying to find a place where we could see better, so we walked down to Houston and then one block down Houston to Elm and stood there until the parade came by.
Mr.Belin. Now, do you know when you got to corner of Houston and Elm—approximately?
Mr.Fischer. About 12:20.
Mr.Belin. 12:20?
Mr.Fischer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. And where were you standing on the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Fischer. We were standing right on the curb—uh—on the southwest corner of Elm and Houston.
Mr.Belin. Where were you with relation to that lagoon that's there?
Mr.Fischer. Well, that lagoon is rather long. We were standing in front of it, across the sidewalk. I believe it's the curb and the sidewalk and thislittle bit of grass, and then the lagoon. And we were standing right on the curb there.
Mr.Belin. You were standing on the curb at about the point where the actual curve of the curb is at the intersection—or not?
Mr.Fischer. I'd say where the curb starts to curve. Because, when the shots were fired, we looked around at the motorcade and couldn't see it—because—uh—of the people that were standing along the curb there. We just couldn't see it. Had we been on further around, we could have just looked down the street and seen it.
Mr.Belin. So, you would have been really standing on the curb which would be the west curb of Houston Street, just where it starts to make the curve to go onto Elm there. Is that correct?
Mr.Fischer. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Now, would you describe what you saw as you were standing on that curb?
Mr.Fischer. About 10 or 15 seconds before the parade—first car of the parade came around the corner.
Mr.Belin. Now what corner is that?
Mr.Fischer. Of Houston and Main.
Mr.Belin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Fischer. Which would have been the first time we could have seen any of the cars because of the building—about 10 or 15 seconds before the first car came around that corner, Bob punched me and said, "Look at that guy there in that window." And he made some remark—said, "He looks like he's uncomfortable"—or something.
And I looked up and I watched the man for, oh, I'd say, 10 or 15 seconds. It was until the first car came around the corner of Houston and Main. And, then, when that car did come around the corner, I took my attention off of the man in the window and started watching the parade. The man held my attention for 10 or 15 seconds, because he appeared uncomfortable for one, and, secondly, he wasn't watching—uh—he didn't look like he was watching for the parade. He looked like he was looking down toward the Trinity River and the triple underpass down at the end—toward the end of Elm Street. And—uh—all the time I watched him, he never moved his head, he never—he never moved anything. Just was there transfixed.
Mr.Belin. In what window did you see the man?
Mr.Fischer. It was the corner window on Houston Street facing Elm, in the fifth or sixth floor.
Mr.Belin. On what side of the—first of all, what building was this you saw him in?
Mr.Fischer. The Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Belin. And what side of the building would the window have been in?
Mr.Fischer. It would have been—well, as you're looking toward the front of the building, it would have been to your right.
Mr.Belin. Well, the building itself has four sides—a north, east, south, and a west side—the entire sides of the building. Would this have been the north, south, east, or west side of the building?
Mr.Fischer. It would have been the south side—the entrance.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now, on that south side of the building—now, was it the center part of the south side, the east part of the south side, or the west part of the south side?
Mr.Fischer. The east part of the south side.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Now, with reference to the east corner of the south side there—would it have been the first window next to that corner, the second, the third, or the fourth—or what?
Mr.Fischer. First window.
Mr.Belin. From the east corner of the south side?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember anything about the man? Could you describe his appearance at all? First of all, how much of him could you see?
Mr.Fischer. I could see from about the middle of his chest past the top of his head.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Fischer. He was in the—as you're looking toward that window, he was in the lower right portion of the window. He seemed to be sitting a little forward.
And he had—he had on an open-neck shirt, but it—uh—could have been a sport shirt or a T-shirt. It was light in color; probably white, I couldn't tell whether it had long sleeves or whether it was a short-sleeved shirt, but it was open-neck and light in color.
Uh—he had a slender face and neck—uh—and he had a light complexion—he was a white man. And he looked to be 22 or 24 years old.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember anything about the color of his hair?
Mr.Fischer. His hair seemed to be—uh—neither light nor dark; possibly a light—well, possibly a—well, it was a brown was what it was; but as to whether it was light or dark, I can't say.
Mr.Belin. Did he have a thick head of hair or did he have a receding hair-line—or couldn't you tell?
Mr.Fischer. I couldn't tell. He couldn't have had very long hair, because his hair didn't seem to take up much space—of what I could see of his head. His hair must have been short and not long.
Mr.Belin. Well, did you see a full view of his face or more of a profile of it, or what was it?
Mr.Fischer. I saw it at an angle but, at the same time, I could see—I believe I could see the tip of his right cheek as he looked to my left.
Mr.Belin. Now, could you be anything more definite as to what direction he was looking at?
Mr.Fischer. He looked to me like he was looking straight at the triple underpass.
Mr.Belin. Down what street?
Mr.Fischer. Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. Down Elm?
Mr.Fischer. Toward the end of Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. As it angles there and goes under the triple underpass there?
Mr.Fischer. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Could you see his hands?
Mr.Fischer. No.
Mr.Belin. Could you see whether or not he was holding anything?
Mr.Fischer. No; I couldn't see.
Mr.Belin. Could you see any other objects in the window?
Mr.Fischer. There were boxes and cases stacked all the way from the bottom to the top and from the left to the right behind him. It looked—uh—it's possible that there weren't cases directly behind him because I couldn't see because of him. But—uh—all the rest of the window—a portion behind the window—there were boxes. It looked like there was space for a man to walk through there between the window and the boxes. But there were boxes in the window, or close to the window there.
Mr.Belin. Could you see any other people in any other windows there that you remember?
Mr.Fischer. I couldn't see any other people in the windows. I don't remember seeing any others.
Mr.Belin. By this, do you mean that you are sure there were none, or that you just do not remember seeing any?
Mr.Fischer. I don't remember seeing any.
Mr.Belin. Now, after you saw the man, then the motorcade turned onto Houston from Main—is that correct?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever see the man again in the window?
Mr.Fischer. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever look back at the window?
Mr.Fischer. I never looked back at the window.
Mr.Belin. Well, could you describe what happened as you watched themotorcade turn? First, about how fast did the motorcade appear to be going?
Mr.Fischer. When the motorcade passed me, it was—uh—the driver was in process of making the wide turn there from Houston to Elm, and he was going very slow. I'd say, uh—10–15 miles an hour.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Then what happened?
Mr.Fischer. Well, the motorcade—the limousine made the wide turn and—uh—they went out of our view just as they began to straighten up onto Elm Street because there were people standing along the curb all the way around—and that's when the limousine went out of my view and I started watching the other cars behind the Presidential limousine.
Mr.Belin. And then what happened?
Mr.Fischer. Well, as I looked around to watch these other cars, I heard a shot. At first I thought it was a firecracker. And—uh—everybody got quiet. There was no yelling or shouting or anything. Everything seemed to get real still. And—uh—the second shot rang out, and then everybody—from where I was standing—everybody started to scatter. And—uh—then the third shot.
At first, I thought there were four, but as I think about it more, there must have been just three.
Mr.Belin. At first, you thought there were four shots?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, you said the first one you thought was a firecracker?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What about the second one? Did you think that was a firecracker, too?
Mr.Fischer. No. When the second shot rang out. It was too much like the first to be a firecracker. I have heard high-powered rifles fire before. The—uh—first shot fooled me, I think, because of the sound bouncing off the buildings. But the second shot was too much like the first and it was too loud—both shots were too loud to be a firecracker. And I knew it was a shot.
Mr.Belin. Have you had any experience with high-powered rifles before?
Mr.Fischer. Very little; but I have shot several.
Mr.Belin. What about the third shot? Did you think that was a firecracker or what?
Mr.Fischer. No; I knew it was a shot, too. I knew someone was shooting at something. Uh—it didn't—it still didn't dawn on me that anyone would try to shoot at the President, but I knew that somebody was shooting at something. I didn't know whether it was a real pistol or a real rifle—but I knew somebody was shooting a firearm.
Mr.Belin. Where did the shots appear to be coming from?
Mr.Fischer. They appeared to be coming from just west of the School Book Depository Building. There were some railroad tracks and there were some railroad cars back in there.
Mr.Belin. And they appeared to be coming from those railroad cars?
Mr.Fischer. Well, that area somewhere. From where I was standing, I couldn't see the cars themselves until I had run across the street and up the hill.
Mr.Belin. The shots seemed to be how far apart?
Mr.Fischer. That's hard to say. I've been thinking about that. And-uh—I'd guess—3 to 4 seconds.
Mr.Belin. Was that between the first and the second or between the second and the third?
Mr.Fischer. Between both. As far as I can remember, the shots were evenly spaced.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else about the shots that you remember?
Mr.Fischer. No—only that they were very loud.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about the man in the window that you remember?
Mr.Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr.Belin. All right. What did you do or see or hear after you hear the shots?
Mr.Fischer. After the second shot we, Bob and I both, started running downthe sidewalk on Elm Street, on the south side of Elm, and there were still people that were milling around and shuffling around. When the second shot broke, like I say, a lot of people started running, some people still stood but a lot of people started running. Uh—and then when the third shot went off, we just almost reached the curb and then just as the limousine went under the triple underpass, we got to the street—Elm Street—where we could actually see—uh—well—where the shots had gone, and—uh—we ran across the street where there were a man, his wife and two children laying on the ground. Now, that was on the north side of Elm Street about halfway between Houston and the triple underpass and we ran down there where this man and his wife and two boys were. Someone was helping them up off the ground, and the man said at that time that the President had been shot.
And, after that, we stood there for 10 or 15 seconds and then we ran up to the top of the hill there where all the Secret Service men had run, thinking that that's where the bullets had come from since they seemed to be searching that area over there. They jumped off—out of cars and ran up the side of the hill there and onto the tracks where these passenger—freight cars were.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you remember?
Mr.Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after that, then?
Mr.Fischer. After that, we went back up to the building where we work—the records building—and went on upstairs to the office. And that's where Bob and I separated and—he had some things to do—I think he had some stuff that had to go down to another office and he left. After we got up there, he got some paper and then left. I stayed there for a little whileand——
Mr.Belin. Well, first of all, about when did you get back to the records building do you feel?
Mr.Fischer. Uh—it must have been 5—5 minutes after the first shot was fired. Something like that.
Mr.Belin. All right. When you went back there, did you walk by the front of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Fischer. No; when we went back, we came—we went back the same way we came. We went straight across Elm and then up to Houston on the south side of Elm, and then crossed.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice whether or not people were going in or coming out of the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Fischer. There seemed to be a lot of people around—uh—the front; but, of course, there were a lot of people all over the street.
Mr.Belin. All right. You got back up to the building—the records building—and then what did you do?
Mr.Fischer. Well, as I said, we went up to the fourth floor to our office. Uh—I stayed there for 5 or 10 minutes. Bob had left. And then I went next door in the purchasing department where they've got a radio. I was trying to—I didn't—I don't guess I really believed yet that it had happened—that the President had been shot. And—uh—I was trying to find out on the radio just exactly what did happen.
And I stayed in the purchasing department 5 minutes or so—well, 5 or 10 minutes, and then I went back down the hall where some people had a radio standing out in the hall. They had another station on, and still nobody knew anything.
Then, I went back to the office about—oh, maybe 5 or 10 minutes till 1, and-uh—we heard a bunch of sirens, police cars, and leaned out the window, and police cars were all surrounding the Texas School Book Depository Building. And when I saw all that and saw the detectives in the window, the officers, I knew that—I realized that the shots—that they must have the assassin in there or the man who did the shooting—or something was wrong with the building.
So, I realized then that it possibly was the man I saw since he was the only one I remember in a window and that it had something to do with the building—that it's possible that the man I saw had something to do with it.
About that time a deputy from the sheriff's office came up and asked me if I was Ronald Fischer, and I said, "Yes;" and he said that Sheriff Decker wanted to see me in his office right now.
Mr.Belin. About what time was this now?
Mr.Fischer. This was at—oh—1 o'clock on or about 1 o'clock.
Mr.Belin. You then went to Sheriff Decker's office?
Mr.Fischer. I went to Decker's office and—uh—Bob Edwards was in there. He looked up—and he had given them my name and told them—at least, this is what he told me—that he told them that we had both been standing there together and had seen this man in the window of the School Book Depository Building. So, that's why they came to get me—because he had told them.
There were a lot of other people in the office—12 or 15 other people. They all seemed to be connected with it in some way or another. And I noticed, too, in Sheriff Decker's office was this man and woman and two boys that we had talked to down the street there on Elm that had hit the ground when the shots started.
Mr.Belin. Now, this man that you saw in the window—did he appear to be standing or sitting—or couldn't you tell?
Mr.Fischer. He must not have been standing because I don't think the floor was that far away. He could have been standing—I'll take that back. He would have had to have been crouched over. He didn't look like he was crouched over or bent over. He must have been—I'm guessing—but I'm thinking he must have been on his knees or maybe sitting, on a box maybe. But he—I don't think that it's possible that he was standing.
Mr.Belin. Was he sitting or crouching, or whatever he was doing, in a straight-up position?
Mr.Fischer. No; he was leaning forward slightly.
Mr.Belin. About how far forward was he leaning—or couldn't you tell?
Mr.Fischer. Oh, it was slightly—enough to where I could tell, but—oh—his head wasn't out of the window and his head wasn't past the window sill. If he had been much further back in, it would have been hard for me to see him at all.
Mr.Belin. Now, sometime afterwards, you signed a written statement at the sheriff's office—is that it?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And, later, did some policemen bring out a picture of an individual and ask you to try and identify him?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did they tell you whose picture it was?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Whose picture did they say it was?
Mr.Fischer. Well, they actually showed me two pictures—one of Lee Harvey Oswald, and one of Jack Ruby.
Mr.Belin. All right. And what did you say?
Mr.Fischer. I told them that that could have been the man.
Mr.Belin. Now, which one did you say could have been the man?
Mr.Fischer. Lee Harvey Oswald. That that could have been the man that I saw in the window of the School Book Depository Building, but that I was not sure. It's possible that a man fit the general description that I gave—but I can't say for sure.
Mr.Belin. Was there anything different—do you remember the picture?—between the picture you saw and the man you saw in the window?
Mr.Fischer. Yes; one thing—and that is in the picture he looked like he hadn't shaved in several days at least. And—uh—I don't know whether at that distance, looking at him from the street in the School Book Depository Building—if I could have been able to—if I could have seen that. I think, if he had been unshaven in the window, it would have made his complexion appear—well—rather dark; but I remember his complexion was light; that is, unless he had just a light beard.
Mr.Belin. Was the sun shining on his face when you saw him in the window or not—or don't you remember?
Mr.Fischer. No; uh—no the sun wasn't shining on his face. He was back in the shadow of the window.
Mr.Belin. When did the policeman come out with this picture—on the same day or on the next day?
Mr.Fischer. No; it was—uh—no, it was several days after. I can't remember whether it was a week or 2 weeks or—it was at least a week. I don't remember exactly when it was but it was a week, at least.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this: Was there anything else different between the man you saw in the picture and the man you saw in the window?
Mr.Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr.Belin. What about the color of his hair? Do you remember what the color of the hair was of the man in the picture?
Mr.Fischer. Yes; it was brown. It was a darker shade of brown but it was definitely brown.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean, "a darker shade of brown?"
Mr.Fischer. Well, it wasn't—it wasn't—uh—well, I guess there are a lot of shades of brown. But it wasn't—uh—it wasn't a light brown. It was a—in the picture it showed up as definitely a darker brown. I can't think of anything to compare it to.
Mr.Belin. Well, when you saw the man in the window, did he appear to have light brown hair, dark brown, medium brown—or what kind of hair did he have?
Mr.Fischer. Well, it wasn't dark and it wasn't light. Uh—he didn't have black hair and he didn't have blonde hair. It—uh—must have been a brown but, like I say, there are a lot of different shades of brown and I'm not—I can't—it's hard for me to say just exactly what shade of brown I saw that he had. I know what shade he had in the picturebut——
Mr.Belin. Well, I hand you a copy of a statement which I believe—at least has the signature on it—and ask you to see if this looks like it's your signature?
Mr.Fischer. [After perusing paper.] Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right. I'm going to call this "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1," and ask you to read this statement, which appears to be dated November 22, 1963, and ask you to state if there's anything in that statement that does not appear to be accurate.
(Thereupon, the statement of Mr. Fischer dated Nov. 22, 1963, is identified as "Fischer Deposition Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr.Fischer. You want me to read this now?
Mr.Belin. You can just read it to yourself and then you can tell me when you get through whether or not there is anything in that statement that doesn't appear to be accurate.
Mr.Fischer. [After reading Exhibit No. 1.] That is correct.
Mr.Belin. Is this what you told these people there?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, in this statement it says that the man appeared to be in his twenties—is that what you told them?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. It says that all you could see was his head, now you've told me here today that you could see his chest?
Mr.Fischer. Yes; from the middle of his chest up. I could see his shoulders.
Uh—the man taking that particular piece of paper was a court reporter in the records building, and he didn't—he didn't relate—he had about 12 of these things to take—well, yeah, 12 or 15—however many people there were in the sheriff's office at that time. And he was, like I say, he was in a hurry to get it down and I said I could see his head—and, so, he put that down. And that is right. I could see his head.
Mr.Belin. The statement here says that he was light-headed and that he had on an open-neck shirt. Did he have an open-neck shirt on?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Now, what about being light-headed?
Mr.Fischer. By "light-headed," I meant that he didn't have black hair. He didn't have dark—he didn't have—well, when I say "dark," I mean black. He didn't have black hair. He didn't have blonde hair. When I said, "light-headed," I didn't mean blonde—or I would have said that, but—uh.
Mr.Belin. What color of hair did you mean? Did you say "light-headed"?
Mr.Fischer. I believe I did say "light-headed"—because I didn't—like I say—I didn't want it to appear that he was dark.
Mr.Belin. By "dark," what color do you mean?
Mr.Fischer. Black.
Mr.Belin. Well, once again, I'll ask you, to the best of your recollection, what color hair did he have?
Mr.Fischer. Uh—like I say, it's too hard for me to—uh—to tell one way or the other. At the distance I was, uh—it's just—it's just too hard for me to—I'm not going to say it because I don't know for sure, just exactly what shade of hair he did have. It wasn't blonde and it wasn't black. Somewhere in between. And it was a shade of brown that as to whether it was a dark brown, a light brown, a medium brown, or whatever you call it—I don't know.
Mr.Belin. All right.
The statement says that you saw him in the window there. Do you remember how far the window was open?
Mr.Fischer. The window was open almost all the way open if not, all the way open.
Mr.Belin. By that "all the way"—when you have a window all the way open of that kind, of course, you just have a half of the window case that is open. Is that correct?
Mr.Fischer. That's right, You still have half an area of the opening covered by glass.
Mr.Belin. Was it the bottom area that was open or the top area?
Mr.Fischer. The bottom area. The window looked to be—uh—a window that raised from the bottom up.
Mr.Belin. And it appeared to be almost as fully open as you could, or fully open?
Mr.Fischer. Or fully open. Yes—Or I wouldn't have been able to see the cases and see past the top of his head had it not been—and his shoulders.
Mr.Belin. Now, on this written statement it says that you remember a tall girl walking into the School Book Depository Building there at about the time you saw the man?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you see such a girl walk in the building?
Mr.Fischer. I can't remember. It must have been before. It must have been just before—uh—I saw the man in the window. I can't remember very well. It's been too long. I believe it was before I saw the man in the window that I saw her walk into the building. Like I say, I made a mental note of it but I didn't pay too much attention at the time.
Mr.Belin. Now, sometime later, after November 22, you were interviewed by the FBI. Do you remember that?
Mr.Fischer. Yes; in the records building.
Mr.Belin. And did the FBI man have any pictures with him at all, or not?
Mr.Fischer. I don't remember whether he had pictures or not. It seems like he did.
Mr.Belin. Could you identify the man you saw in the window from any of the pictures?
Mr.Fischer. Uh—not—in fact, I believe they asked me—I believe they did have pictures of him. It seems like I recall them asking me if it could have been the picture that they identified as Lee Harvey Oswald, or if it could have been the picture of Jack Ruby.
Mr.Belin. Now what did you say about the Jack Ruby picture?
Mr.Fischer. I told them that I didn't think it could be him because—uh—he didn't—he didn't have near enough hair, it didn't look like to me.
Mr.Belin. What about his build?
Mr.Fischer. And that, too. His face was just a little—uh—fat; whereas-uh—Oswald's picture was rather a slender face and neck.
Mr.Belin. Did the man you saw in the window have a high forehead or a low forehead—or do you remember?
Mr.Fischer. I can't—I can't remember seeing that—uh—that well. I don't know if I could have—if I saw it now, whether I could tell you whether he had a large forehead or not.
Mr.Belin. Do you have any estimate of how far you were from that window when you saw him?
Mr.Fischer. Uh—from the point where I was standing when I saw him in the window to him, it must have been, I would say, at least a hundred feet.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now, did you ever tell anyone, or might you have told them, that you saw this person a minute or two before you saw the motorcade, rather than as you told us here today, 15 or 20 seconds before you first saw the motorcade?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever tell anyone it was a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?
Mr.Fischer. Well, I might have said "a minute or two" in just terms. I don't remember saying that but.
Mr.Belin. But what isthe——
Mr.Fischer. Shortly before.
Mr.Belin. Shortly?
Mr.Fischer. Shortly before.
Mr.Belin. Do you definitely remember that it was this 15 or 20 seconds or so before you saw the motorcade, or might it have been a minute or two before you saw the motorcade?
Mr.Fischer. I don't think it was over a minute. It could—it was less than a minute—because, as I recall, that's what—that's the reason I turned my attention from him and I looked back down the street.
Mr.Belin. All right. Is there anything else you can think of that bears on the assassination, or anything you saw or did or heard that you haven't related here?
Mr.Fischer. (Pausing before reply.) No.
Mr.Belin. Did you say "No"?
Mr.Fischer. No—I can't think of anything.
Mr.Belin. Shortly before this interview began, you and I met for the first time—is that correct?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And we first chatted a few minutes about what you saw before we started taking your testimony on the record?
Mr.Fischer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What is the fact as to whether or not I asked you to tell me your story or whether or not, instead, I asked you questions and tried to, in any way, lead you—or so forth?
Mr.Fischer. I answered the questions as I think that I saw the events happen—as I saw the events happen. I was not quizzed on what to say or anything of that nature. I've merely related what I think that I saw.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything that you told me of before we started taking the deposition that has not been included in this deposition—that you can think of?
Mr.Fischer. [Pausing before reply.] No; not that I can think of.
Mr.Belin. All right.
I believe that ends the deposition.
I want to thank you for your courtesy in coming here, Mr. Fischer. We appreciate your taking the time to do it. And we would also appreciate your conveying our appreciation to the Dallas County Auditor for letting you take this time off. Will you do that, please?
Mr.Fischer. Yes; and thank you.
The testimony of Robert Edwin Edwards was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Would you stand and raise your right hand and be sworn, please.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Edwards. I do.
Mr.Belin. Your name, please?
Mr.Edwards. Robert Edwin Edwards.
Mr.Belin. Where do you live, Mr. Edwards?
Mr.Edwards. Tahlequah, Okla.
Mr.Belin. What do you do up there?
Mr.Edwards. I am going to school, college, Northeastern State College.
Mr.Belin. What year of school are you in? Are you a freshman?
Mr.Edwards. No; I am a senior.
Mr.Belin. You are a senior.
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. You have been going up to school there for several years?
Mr.Edwards. Two years I went there. I laid out last year and worked here in Dallas.
Mr.Belin. Are you originally from Dallas?
Mr.Edwards. No; Graham, Tex.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Edwards. Graham High School in Graham, Tex.
Mr.Belin. What did you do when you got out of school?
Mr.Edwards. I attended Abilene College.
Mr.Belin. For a year?
Mr.Edwards. One year.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Edwards. Decatur Baptist College, which is a junior college.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Edwards. Northeastern State College in Tahlequah, Okla.
Mr.Belin. Laid out last year?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; I am finishing up this semester.
Mr.Belin. What did you do last fall?
Mr.Edwards. I worked at the courthouse there.
Mr.Belin. Is that the Dallas County Courthouse?
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. Where is that located?
Mr.Edwards. Let's say down on Main. I guess that would be sufficient.
Mr.Belin. Main Street?
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. What street crosses there, do you remember?
Mr.Edwards. Well, you mean—give me a multiple choice and I will tell you.
Mr.Belin. Harwood?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Record?
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. What about Elm? Houston Street?
Mr.Edwards. It runs right behind it, if I am not mistaken.
Mr.Belin. Were you working on the day the President came to Dallas?
Mr.Edwards. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. That was November 22, 1963, I believe on a Friday, is that correct?
Mr.Edwards. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Did you have lunch before the motorcade came by or not?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; I did.
Mr.Belin. Were you with anyone?
Mr.Edwards. Ronald Fischer.
Mr.Belin. Ronald Fischer. Did he work with you in that office?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; he did.
Mr.Belin. What were you doing there? By the way, what was your job?
Mr.Edwards. Just a utility clerk.
Mr.Belin. What did you do after lunch?
Mr.Edwards. Came back and worked. I don't know exactly what time.For a little while until it was time for the President to come by, and then we left.
Mr.Belin. Where did you go?
Mr.Edwards. Sir?
Mr.Belin. Where did you go? You say you left. Where did you go?
Mr.Edwards. You mean left the office?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Edwards. Down on—I get the streets mixed up. Let's see, it would be Houston.
Mr.Belin. Houston?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; I guess it would be Houston across the street in the little park right across from the courthouse, straight across from, facing the Depository.
Mr.Belin. Well, let me ask you this now.
Mr.Edwards. That is Elm, I guess that is what it is. I guess that is Elm Street.
Mr.Belin. When you used the word "Depository," what building do you mean?
Mr.Edwards. Texas School Book Depository.
Mr.Belin. Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Edwards. That building is at the corner of Elm and Houston, isn't it? Houston comes this way?
Mr.Belin. Well, Houston, I believe, runs in a north-south direction. Elm runs in a east-west direction. Would a map help you at all?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Let me see if I can get one for you here.
I am handing you a portion of a map. You see Houston Street here on this map?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. And you see Elm Street running this way, and the arrow pointing north, so Houston runs north and south.
Mr.Edwards. Where do you put the courthouse?
Mr.Belin. The courthouse would be off this strip of map, but that is Elm and here is Houston. This little black square would be the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Edwards. It would have to be Houston and Elm.
Mr.Belin. Here is Elm going in the parkway here. Do you see that right there?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. All right, Main Street would be running toward the bottom of the map?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; it was here.
Mr.Belin. You are putting your finger at the point which would be to the west of Houston Street and to the south of Elm as it goes into the parkway, is that right?
You see the arrow pointing northwest would be to your left on the map, and you are going to be west of Houston Street and south of Elm going in the parkway, is that correct?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; I would be over here, right over here.
Mr.Belin. Here is the parkway. Can you see it upside down here? Let's see if I can show you a picture.
Mr.Edwards. I am sorry. I don't have a picture.
Mr.Belin. Here is a map and on the map north is shown with an arrow. You see it right here?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Edwards, have you now located yourself on this map?
Mr.Edwards. Yes; I have.
Mr.Belin. All right, where were you located?
Mr.Edwards. I guess I would plant myself right there.
Mr.Belin. You are planting yourself now at a spot which would be on the west side of Houston Street near that entrance of Elm Street into the parkwaythere, and you would be facing in a northerly direction toward the School Book Depository Building, is that correct?
Mr.Edwards. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. Who were you standing with?
Mr.Edwards. Ronald Fischer.
Mr.Belin. What time did you get there?
Mr.Edwards. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. How long before the motorcade came by, if you know?
Mr.Edwards. Where is that little paper and I will tell you.
Mr.Belin. Can you remember without looking at any paper right now?
Mr.Edwards. No; not really. I can guess.
Mr.Belin. What is your best guess? We will understand that it is just a guess.
Mr.Edwards. Maybe I'd better not guess.
Mr.Belin. All right, if you don't care to guess, that is fine. We would prefer that you not make any statement unless you feel fairly sure about it.
What did you do when you got to this point?
Mr.Edwards. Stood there and waited for the motorcade to come.
Mr.Belin. Did you look around at all?
Mr.Edwards. Certainly.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever take a look at the south side of the Texas School Book Depository Building? That would be facing—you would be looking at the south side of the building?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever look at that at all?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Before the motorcade came by?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What did you see?
Mr.Edwards. Nothing of importance except maybe one individual who was up there in the corner room of the sixth floor which was crowded in among boxes.
Mr.Belin. You say on the sixth floor?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What portion of the sixth floor as you looked at the building to your right or to your left?
Mr.Edwards. To my right.
Mr.Belin. How near the corner?
Mr.Edwards. The corner window.
Mr.Belin. The corner window there?
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. Could you describe this individual at all? Was he a white man or a Negro?
Mr.Edwards. White man.
Mr.Belin. Tall or short, if you know?
Mr.Edwards. I couldn't say.
Mr.Belin. Did he have anything in his hand at all that you could see?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Could you see his hands?
Mr.Edwards. I don't remember.
Mr.Belin. What kind of clothes did he have on?
Mr.Edwards. Light colored shirt, short sleeve and open neck.
Mr.Belin. How much of him could you see? Shoulder up, waist up, knees up, or what?
Mr.Edwards. From the waist on. From the abdomen or stomach up.
Mr.Belin. Was the man fat, thin, or average in size?
Mr.Edwards. Oh, about average. Possibly thin.
Mr.Belin. Could you tell whether he was light skinned or medium skin or what, if you could tell?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Was the sun shining in or not, if you know?
Mr.Edwards. Don't know.
Mr.Belin. Was the sun out that day?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What color hair did the man have?
Mr.Edwards. Light brown.
Mr.Belin. Light brown hair?
Mr.Edwards. That is what I would say; yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you see any other people on the sixth floor?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice whether or not there were any, or just did you look and see any?
Mr.Edwards. I notice that there—I just didn't see any.
Mr.Belin. What about the next floor above? Did you see any people on the floor above?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. What about on any floors below? See any people on the fifth floor?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Fourth floor?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Third floor?
Mr.Edwards. Possibly.
Mr.Belin. Second floor?
Mr.Edwards. I believe so.
Mr.Belin. First floor?
Mr.Edwards. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, you signed an affidavit for the sheriff's department where you stated that you saw a man at the window on the fifth floor, and the window was wide open all the way, and there was a stack of books around him, I could see. And you just told me you didn't see a man on the fifth floor. Was that affidavit correct or not?
Mr.Edwards. That is incorrect. That has been straightened out since.
Mr.Belin. What do you mean it has been straightened out?
Mr.Edwards. Well, they discussed it with me later and I took that back. That was the FBI. It was the sixth floor, though.
Mr.Belin. How do you know it was the sixth floor? Sixth floor rather than the fifth floor?
Mr.Edwards. I went with them and I showed them the window, and I didn't count the bottom floor.
Mr.Belin. You mean the first time when you made the affidavit you didn't count the bottom floor?
Mr.Edwards. That's right.
Mr.Belin. When you went out with the FBI, they asked you to point out the window?
Mr.Edwards. Right.
Mr.Belin. And you pointed out the same window you saw on November 22?
Mr.Edwards. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then you weren't counting the bottom floor?
Mr.Edwards. They did.
Mr.Belin. Did you watch them count?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember how many floors from the top it was?
Mr.Edwards. I think seven in all, seven floors. It is next to the top.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not the hair of the man was short, average, or long on the man that you saw in the window that day?
Mr.Edwards. Don't know.
Mr.Belin. Now what conversation did you and Ronald Fischer have about this man, if anything? Do you remember what he said?
Mr.Edwards. I made a statement to Ronny that I wondered who he was hiding from since he was up there crowded in among the boxes, in a joking manner.
Mr.Belin. You mean you said it in a joking manner?
Mr.Edwards. Yes.
Mr.Belin. What did Fischer say to you?
Mr.Edwards. I don't recall what he said, but I know that we said a few things. It wasn't of any importance at the time. And we looked up at him, both of us.
Mr.Belin. How long did you look at him?
Mr.Edwards. Just a few seconds.
Mr.Belin. Then what took your attention away, if any, or did you just start looking somewhere else?
Mr.Edwards. Started looking somewhere else.
Mr.Belin. How long after that did the motorcade come by?
Mr.Edwards. Thirty seconds or a minute.
Mr.Belin. Anything else that you can remember that you or Ronald Fischer said?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of that might be relevant at all?
Mr.Edwards. No.
Mr.Belin. How many shots did you hear, if you remember?
Mr.Edwards. Well, I heard one more then than was fired, I believe.
Mr.Belin. You mean you said on the affidavit you heard four shots?
Mr.Edwards. I still right now don't know how many was fired. If I said four, then I thought I heard four.
Mr.Belin. If you said four, you mean the affidavit—maybe we'd better introduce it into the record as Edward's Deposition Exhibit A. Where do you think the shots came from?
Mr.Edwards. I have no idea.
Mr.Belin. In the affidavit you stated that the shots seemed to come from the building there. Did you really say that or not?