Mr.Jenner. Then, one of the occasions when the gentleman interviewed you—were Secret Service and FBI people—there is a notation that you recalled that on Monday afternoon that he did call his wife?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Now, does that refresh your recollection, that he did call her the same day that he moved in hereon——
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, I guess he did, uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. And, were you aware of the fact that he was using the telephone?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Oh, I told him he could use the phone to get him a job and call his wife.
Mr.Jenner. And were you aware of any occasion on Monday when you had your own mental conception that he was actually talking with his wife?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, it didn't—I wasn't interested at all. He—I wasn't—I didn't think about it at all. When I got interested is when he called, talking in that foreign language.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the first time you heard him talking in the foreign language was when?
Mrs.Bledsoe. As well as I can guess, it was a Wednesday.
Mr.Jenner. Wednesday?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Wednesday afternoon, but he cameon——
Mr.Jenner. Now, so you assume that the other calls he made on Monday, since he did not, I take it, did not speak in a foreign language, or you didn't hear him speak in a foreign language on Monday?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. And you didn't hear him do so on Tuesday?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. First time you heard him to do that was Wednesday?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner.Well——
MissDouthit. Ask her if she ever heard him talk to anybody on the telephone in English. That iswhat——
Mr.Jenner. Well, I have assumed that you did hear him talk with people on the telephone using the English language?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, was about jobs, about getting a job. He called people to get jobs, and then he would become almost mad, and sometimes he was mad.
Mr.Jenner. What did he say?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, I don't know, but he was mad.
Mr.Jenner. About what?
Mrs.Bledsoe. About what they were talking about. He would get in a bad humor, and then the day he made that call,he——
Mr.Jenner. Which call?
Mrs.Bledsoe. That call.
Mr.Jenner. Wednesday? The call in which he spoke in a foreign language?
Mrs.Bledsoe. He was real mad.
Mr.Jenner. He was angry with the person to whom he was speaking over the telephone?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. But, you couldn't understand what he was saying?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. So, you don't know whether he was angry with the person, or angry with someone else and explaining it to the person on the phone about something in anger?
Mrs.Bledsoe. I know he talked in a—he talked in a, I guess it was a foreign language, and I don't know what it was.
Mr.Jenner. Just sounded irritated?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Was there ever an occasion when you saw him in possession, either in his room, or carrying a long object wrapped in paper or a blanketor——
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or something as long as 45 inches long?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. Seven or eight inches wide?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Didn't have anything like that with him.
Mr.Jenner. Anything that you thought could be curtain rodsor——
Mrs.Bledsoe. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. Or shades that are on the spring, did he ever have any package that looked as though that sort of thing might be contained in it?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. You saw nothing of that nature in his room?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you describe the room? Was it tastefully decorated or—shades, curtains? There was no need for him to have any—bring anything in to decorate that room, was there?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he do so?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. Brought nothing in of that nature?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. And there was no discussion with you on that subject?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No.
Mr.Jenner. You do have a distinct recollection, do you, that he was there on Friday, that would be the 11th, I think?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Friday. That is the day that he stayed in his room all day.
Mr.Jenner. Stayed in his room all day long?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Just went to the bathroom and came back.
Mr.Jenner. That was Friday, October 11?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. On the 12th, that would be Saturday the 12th of October, did he receive any phone calls?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell me about that?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, I think he called somebody—somebody called him, and I judged it was his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Did you answer the phone, or did he?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No; my son answered.
Mr.Jenner. Your son answered the phone?
Mrs.Bledsoe. And he called him to the phone, and seemed like that she was going to have a childand——
Mr.Jenner. Did you gather this from what you heard him say?
Mrs.Bledsoe. From what they said.
Mr.Jenner. From his end of the conversation?
Mrs.Bledsoe. From him, and then I thought he was going to move, and you see, I was tickled to death, so, then said, "Well, I will meet her," or, said that he would meet her, said he would go to the hospital and meet her, see, but he didn't never get to it, I judged that is what he said.
Mr.Jenner. You heard enough of the conversation that you have the recollection that he said something about his wife possibly having to go to the hospital?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. For the delivery of her child?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was this the first time you had any knowledge that his wife was with child?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you say anything about that to him?
Mrs.Bledsoe. No; I didn't mention it. I never did mention about that man talking to him either, because it wasn't any of my business.
Mr.Jenner. Which man?
Mrs.Bledsoe. This man who called and talked to him in the foreign language. I never did see him.
Mr.Jenner. How did you know it was a man?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Well, I just judged that it was.
Mr.Jenner. You heard his end of the conversation? He was talking in a foreign language?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You assumed from that that whoever was on the other line was likewise talking in a foreign language, and you assumed a man, though you didn't know?
Mrs.Bledsoe. I don't know, so, I didn't say that, because I don't know, but I never did say anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. I believe that's about all I have.
Mr.Ball. All right.
Mrs.Bledsoe. What time is it? I'm tired.
Mr.Ball. It is 5 minutes until 11.
Mrs.Bledsoe. I guess he is going to ask something, too, and I will be up here at 12.
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Bledsoe, this deposition will be written up by the reporter, and you can take it and look it over if you wish and change it in any way and sign it, or if you wish to waive the signature we will have it written up and send it to the Commission as it is.
Do you have any preference that way? Do you want her to waive the signature?
MissDouthit. I think she can waive it. I don't see any reason for her to sign it.
Mr.Ball. Then can we, on the advice of your attorney, will you waive the signature?
Mrs.Bledsoe. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Fine. You will know that you won't be bothered any more then.
Thank you very much, Mrs. Bledsoe.
Mr.Jenner. We do want you to know that we appreciate your coming in.
The testimony of William W. Whaley was taken at 1:50 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. David W. Belin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Belin. Would you want to stand and raise your right hand.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Whaley. I do, sir.
Mr.Belin. Would you state your name, please.
Mr.Whaley. William W. Whaley.
Mr.Belin. You live in Dallas, Mr. Whaley?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. You previously testified before the Commission in Washington, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now before you came to Washington, did you and I ever meet?
Mr.Whaley. Your face is familiar, sir. I still can't tell you whether I knew you here, or in Washington, or where?
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this.
Mr.Whaley. You refresh my memory.
Mr.Belin. I will try to refresh your memory here. When did you come to Washington, approximately?
Mr.Whaley. Well, it's been about 2 or 3 weeks ago, sir. I don't remember the exact date.
Mr.Belin. You testified before the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy in Washington, did you not?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now Mr. Ball and I were with you earlier today over the noon hour, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. That's correct, sir.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Ball and I saw you in Washington, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. Now I don't know if that is correct or not, but your face is very familiar.
Mr.Belin. You think you have seen me before?
Mr.Whaley. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. It might have been in Washington when you were there?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; it could have been.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Whaley, today at noon there were six people including yourself that got in the car to travel that route that you drove a passenger on November 22, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. One of them is sitting here in this room, Dr. Goldberg, over there. Do you see him?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then you and I got in the car, and then Secret Service Agent John Joe Hewlett. We drove in his car and he was the driver, wasn't he?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then there was Mr. Joe Ball, Joseph A. Ball, and then a Mr. Davis, this tall light-haired person?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Davis is from the attorney general's office in Texas.
Now what is the fact as to whether or not we went to the Greyhound Bus Depot here in Dallas?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you point out the place where you said you picked up this passenger?
Mr.Whaley. I did, sir.
Mr.Belin. We had a stopwatch, didn't we?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then you directed us to take a certain route, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. That's correct.
Mr.Belin. What was the route from the Greyhound Bus Depot that you directed us?
Mr.Whaley. On the right from the Greyhound and Lamar to Jackson; right on Jackson and left at Austin and right at Wood.
Mr.Belin. All right.
Mr.Whaley. Then left on Houston, which is the approach to the viaduct.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do when you got to Houston?
You turned left?
Mr.Whaley. I said west to Houston.
Mr.Belin. How far did you go?
Mr.Whaley. You go on the approach past the Union Terminal and up the ramp which is called the Houston Street viaduct.
Mr.Belin. Then what?
Mr.Whaley. You run into Zangs Boulevard.
Mr.Belin. How far on Zangs?
Mr.Whaley. To Beckley. Beckley crosses it. We got to the intersection of Zangs and Beckley.
Mr.Belin. Did we go about the speed you drove that day?
Mr.Whaley. Almost. Going across the viaduct is just about the speed, but he slowed down going up Zangs Boulevard. He slowed down a little slower than I was going.
My normal rate of speed, I don't remember the exact speed I was traveling, but I assume it was normal, because that is the way I travel all the time when traffic is clear enough.
Mr.Belin. Your normal rate of speed would be a little bit faster than the rate that he took?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir. In other words, not enough to make over half a minute difference in the timing.
Mr.Belin. Was traffic clearer on that particular day of November 22?
Mr.Whaley. It was extra clear, for some reason. That street was clear except when I hit Beckley. When I hit Beckley, there was cars turning to the left, and I had to stop for the light.
Mr.Belin. When we got to Beckley at noon today, or shortly thereafter, the traffic light was green, but you told us you had stopped, so we waited through the red light, did we not?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then he turned on Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Heading south?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now when this man that you picked up on November 22 got into your cab, where did he say he wanted to go?
Mr.Whaley. To the 500 block of North Beckley.
Mr.Belin. I will take you back to November 22.
You turned south on Beckley and then where did you go as you turned south on Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. I went right up on Beckley headed toward the 500 block.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Whaley. When I got to Beckley almost to the intersection of Beckley and Neely, he said, "This will do right here," and I pulled up to the curb.
Mr.Belin. Was that the 500 block of North Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir; that was the 700 block.
Mr.Belin. You let him out not at the 500 block but the 700 block of North Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Had you crossed Neely Street yet when you let him off?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. About how far north of Neely street did you let the man off?
Mr.Whaley. About 20 feet.
Mr.Belin. Then you went down to the police station to identify this man?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. You saw a lineup?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember what number he was in the lineup at all?
Mr.Whaley. There was four of them, sir, and from the right to the left, he was No. 3.
Mr.Belin. Starting from the right to the left, from his right or your right?
Mr.Whaley. From your right, sir, which would have been his left. There were numbers above their heads, sir.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Whaley, what number did you say the man was in the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. No. 2.
Mr.Belin. From the right or from your right?
Mr.Whaley. From my left.
Mr.Belin. No. 2?
Mr.Whaley. They brought out four of them and stood them up there, and he was under No. 2. I mentioned he was the third one that come out. There were four and all handcuffed together.
Mr.Belin. Did you sign an affidavit for the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. I will hand you a document which I am calling Whaley Deposition Exhibit A, and ask you to say if your signature appears on there?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; that is my signature.
Mr.Belin. Now I notice in the statement there it says that you traveled Wood Street to Houston Street, turned left and went over the viaduct to Zangs Boulevard. You see that statement there?
Mr.Whaley. Yes.
Mr.Belin. "Traveled Zangs to Beckley and turned left and traveled on Beckley until I reached the 500 block of North Beckley. When I got in the 500 block of North Beckley he said this will do and I stopped."
Now is that what you told them on that day?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; that is what I told them on that day.
Mr.Belin. Well, was that the fact that you drove until you reached the 500 block, or not?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir, I didn't drive until I reached the 500 block. I drove until I reached Beckley and Neely. If you would be in my place when they took me down there, when they had to force their way through the reporters to get me in the office, they wrote that up, and I signed it, because I told them that the man said he wanted to go to the 500 block of North Beckley.
Mr.Belin. All right. Now in here it says, "The No. 3 man who I now know is Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound Bus Station * * *"
Was this the No. 3 or the No. 2 man?
Mr.Whaley. I signed that statement before they carried me down to see the lineup. I signed this statement, and then they carried me down to the lineup at 2:30 in the afternoon.
Mr.Belin. You signed this affidavit before you saw the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. Well, now, let's get this straight. You are getting me confused.
Mr.Belin. Now, I will put it this way. There was an FBI reporter, FBI interviewer with you?
Mr.Belin. Yes, sir; there was.
Mr.Belin. And there was an interview with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Whaley. Yes. And Bill Alexander from the district attorney's office was there, also.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, the last sentence.
Mr.Whaley. Let me tell you how they fixed this up. They had me in the office saying that. They were writing it out on paper, and they wrote it out on paper, and this officer, Leavelle, I think that is his name, before he finished and before I signed he wanted me to go with him to the lineup, so I went to the lineup, and I come back and he asked me which one it was, which number it was, and I identified the man, and we went back up in the office again, and then they had me sign this. That is as near as I can remember.
My recollection for that afternoon in that office was very disturbed because everytime they would open the door, some flash camera would flash in your face and everybody coming in and out and asking you questions.
Mr.Belin. You mean reporters?
Mr.Whaley. I made this statement more to Bill Alexander, because I tried to talk to him more. Everybody was trying to talk to me at once.
Mr.Belin. When you saw the statement the first time, did you see the statement before you went down to see the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. No; I didn't see the statement. I don't think I did. I am not for sure.
I think I signed it after I came back. It was on paper. They were writing it up on paper.
Mr.Belin. They were writing?
Mr.Whaley. Before I left there, I signed this typewritten, because they had to get, a stenographer typed it up. I had to wait.
Mr.Belin. But was this before or after you saw the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. After she typed it up. It was after.
Mr.Belin. It was after?
Mr.Whaley. That is when I signed it, after.
Mr.Belin. Now, when you signed it—what I want to know is, before you went down, had they already put on there a statement that the man you saw was the No. 3 man in the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. I don't remember that. I don't remember whether it said three or two, or what.
Mr.Belin. Did they have any statements on there before you went down to the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. I never saw what they had in there. It was all written out by hand. The statement I saw, I think, was this one, and that could be writing. I might not even seen this one yet. I signed my name because they said that is what I said.
Mr.Belin. Well, Mr.Whaley——
Mr.Whaley. I know, sir, but I don't think you can understand what I had to put up with that afternoon.
Mr.Belin. You mean with the press?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; with everything.
Mr.Belin. Well, I do understand, sir, and I appreciate that you were under a great deal of pressure at that time, and I want to try and get at the actual facts, and that is why we asked you to come back to testify again, because we wanted to know basically whether or not the man that you drove in the cab got off in the 500 block or the 700 block.
Mr.Whaley. The man I drove in the cab got off where I told you he got off, this morning.
I picked him up, and I showed you where I picked him up, and the trip runs 95 cents on the meter. He gave me a dollar and got off and he never spoke a word to me, except he wanted to go to 500 North Beckley.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember a woman coming up to the cab?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; I remember that.
Mr.Belin. What happened then?
Mr.Whaley. The lady, I don't remember whether she was very old, but she was middle-aged. She bent down and stuck in and said, "Can I have this cab?" And he cracked the door open like he was going to get out. I thought he was going to let her have it.
I told her there would be another one, and she said, "Would you please call me one."
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything to the woman, that you can remember?
Mr.Whaley. When she wanted to know if she could have the cab, I don't know, but I got a faint hunch he did tell her she could have this one, or something like that. What it was, I was watching my left-hand side. I wanted to pull out when the light changed.
Mr.Belin. Now when you saw a lineup down at the policestation——
Mr.Whaley. He didn't have on the same clothes. He had on a white T-shirt and black pants, and that is all he had on.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember now whether the man that you saw there was the No. 2 or the No. 3 man?
Mr.Whaley. I will admit he was No. 2.
Mr.Belin. No. 2 from your left, or from your right?
Mr.Whaley. He was the third man out in the line of four as they walked out in a line. They put the first man out on the right, and the last one on my left, and as near as I can remember, he was No. 2, but it was the man I hauled.
Mr.Belin. It says here the No. 3.
Mr.Whaley. Well, I am not trying to mix nobody up. I'm giving it to you the best of my ability.
Mr.Belin. Your memory right now is that it was the No. 2 man?
Mr.Whaley. That is the way it is right now. I don't think it will change again.
But on that afternoon, all I saw was the man that I hauled up there, and they asked me which number he was, and I said No. 2. I am almost sure I did, but I couldn't get up to swear to it that I did, sir.
Mr.Belin. Just one more minute, if you would, please?
Mr. Whaley, earlier in your testimony here you said that Lee Harvey Oswald was No. 3. Do you remember saying that?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; but I meant that he was the third one out when they walked out with him. I said from my right.
Mr.Belin. From your right he was No. 3?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. What number was over his head?
Mr.Whaley. Well, they—when they walked over the line and they stopped him, No. 2 was over his head, but he was pulling on both of the other men on each side and arguing with this detective, so he didn't stay under any certain number.
He was moving like that.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever see him later on television?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Belin. You never did see his picture in the paper?
Mr.Whaley. I saw his picture in the paper the next morning, sir.
Mr.Belin. That would have been Sunday morning, the 24th?
Mr.Whaley. I guess it was, if you say it was, sir.
Mr.Belin. I don't wantto——
Mr.Whaley. I don't want to get you mixed up and get your whole investigation mixed up through my ignorance, but a good defense attorney could take me apart. I get confused. I try to tell you exactly what happened, to the best of my ability, when they brought Oswald out in the lineup of four. He was the third man out. I don't know which way they count them.
Mr.Belin. We don't want you to be concerned about affecting the investigation one way or the other by what you say. What we want you to say is tell us what you know, to the best of your recollection.
Mr.Whaley. That is exactly what I am doing, sir.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. What day of the week did you take this cab passenger, on a Friday or Saturday?
Mr.Whaley. I would have to see my trip sheet.
Mr.Belin. You don't remember?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was it the day of the motorcade?
Mr.Whaley. The day of the President's parade, yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now, was it that day that you went down to the police station to see the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was it the next day?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. The next day you went down to the Dallas Police Station and saw a lineup of how many people?
Mr.Whaley. Four people.
Mr.Belin. These men came out and there were numbers above their heads?
Mr.Whaley. The numbers were stationary. Looked through a black silk screen at them. In other words, they were very dim, the numbers.
Mr.Belin. What did you see as the number over the man that you identified as having been in your cab that day?
Mr.Whaley. No. 2.
Mr.Belin. Did you see a picture of that man in the paper at any time?
Mr.Whaley. Saturday morning, sir; following the event on Friday.
Mr.Belin. You saw his picture in the paper?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was that the same man that you identified as No. 2 in the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever see his picture in the paper again?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir; I take that back, sir. I saw the picture in the paper when they had, when Ruby killed him at the time between the two detectives.
Mr.Belin. Was the man in connection with the Ruby matter with the two detectives, did it have his name in the paper as Lee Harvey Oswald? Was his name in the paper then when you saw his picture?
Mr.Whaley. Well, I don't think they had it that way. I think they just had it Oswald. I am not sure what they had under it. I am not for sure, but I did see the picture.
Mr.Belin. Was that the same man you carried in your cab on Friday?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Was that the man you identified at the police station?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. It is your best recollection, if I understand it, that this was the No. 2 man in the lineup?
Mr.Whaley. That's right, sir. That was from the left now. No. 2 from my left. I was facing him.
Mr.Belin. Right. I mean correct. Now, your affidavit which is Whaley's Deposition Exhibit A, the last sentence says, "The No. 3 man who I now know as Lee Harvey Oswald was the man who I carried from the Greyhound bus station to the 500 block of North Beckley." Now you say it was the No. 2 man from your left, is that correct?
Mr.Whaley. From my left. No. 3 from my right.
Mr.Belin. What about whether or not you carried him to the 500 block of North Beckley. Did you carry him there?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir. That is where he asked me. That is where I put on my trip sheet.
Mr.Belin. You had it on the trip sheet the 500 block of North Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. When did you put it on your trip sheet, before or after you let him out?
Mr.Whaley. After, sir; a good while after.
Mr.Belin. Why?
Mr.Whaley. Well, see, sometimes when you are busy you make three or four trips before you ever write one up.
Mr.Belin. Why didn't you put it on your trip sheet for 700 instead of 500 North Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. Because that is what he told me and that is what I remember when I wrote the trip up. I imagine there were hundreds of trip sheets, because people get off before they get where they are going. But I remember the thing that way.
Mr.Belin. When did you first ascertain or start thinking about it that it was the 700 block of North Beckley where you let him off?
Mr.Whaley. Well, when the FBI man got in my cab and he wanted to go over the route.
Mr.Belin. When was this?
Mr.Whaley. I don't know the exact date, sir, but it was the next week.
Mr.Belin. In the next week you told the FBI that it was the 700 block?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir; I don't recall. I know I took him to where I let him out.
Mr.Belin. You did?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever tell anyone it was the 700 block of North Beckley?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir. I left it said just like I had it on my trip sheet. Nobody else asked me about it.
Mr.Belin. When we went out there today, when we started the stopwatch from the Greyhound bus station to the 700 block of North Beckley, do you know about how many minutes that was on the stop watch?
Mr.Whaley. A little more than 5 minutes, between 5 and 6 minutes.
Mr.Belin. Would your trip that day, on November 22, have been longer or shorter, or about the same time as the trip we took today?
Mr.Whaley. It would be approximately the same time, sir, give or take a few seconds, not minutes. Because the man drove just about as near to my driving as possible. We made every light that I made, and we stopped on the lights that I stopped on.
Mr.Belin. Let the record show that the stopwatch was 5 minutes and 30 seconds from the commencement of the ride to the end of the ride, and let the record further show that Dr. Goldberg and Mr. Robert Davis from the Texas attorney general's office and I walked back from the point where the Deponent Whaley told us he let the passenger off at the residence at 1026 North Beckley, and that this walk took 5 minutes and 45 seconds.
And let the record further show that after visiting the rooming house at 1026 North Beckley—that is what I call the "long way around route,"—was walked from 1026 North Beckley to the scene of the Tippit shooting, which took 17 minutes and 45 seconds at an average walking pace, and this route would be to take Beckley to 10th Street and then turn on 10th Street toward Patton, and this is not the most direct route. Rather, the most direct route would be to take Beckley to Davis Street and then turn left or east on Davis, walking a short block to Crawford, and taking Crawford to 10th, and then 10th east to Patton, or taking Davis Street directly to Patton, and taking Patton down to East 10th, and that the more direct nature of the later route appears from the map which I believe is Commission's Exhibit No. 371, which is the Dallas street map.
Mr. Whaley, is there anything else that you care to add, or can you add anything else that might be helpful in this investigation?
Mr.Whaley. No, sir; I can't.
Mr.Belin. We sure appreciate all your help and taking the time to go over the route today.
Mr.Whaley. Thank you. I still would like to know where I knew you before.
Mr.Belin. Sir, I don't know. Now, Mr. Whaley, if you like, you can come back and read this deposition after it is typed, and sign it before you mail it to Washington, or you can waive the signing of it. You have a right to read it and sign it before it goes, or you can waive the reading of it and send it directly to us in Washington.
Mr.Whaley. Does it make any difference?
Mr.Belin. It does not make any difference.
Mr.Whaley. It will all be what you said and what she took down?
Mr.Belin. What you said?
Mr.Whaley. Yes, sir; and what I said?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Whaley. That will be all right. I will waive the signing of it.
The testimony of Mrs. Earlene Roberts was taken at 4:10 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg was present.
Mr.Ball. Would you stand and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mrs.Roberts. Mrs. Earlene Roberts.
Mr.Ball. And what is your address?
Mrs.Roberts. 5000 Tremont, now.
Mr.Ball. You used to live at 1026 North Beckley, didn't you?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Tell me something about yourself, Mrs. Roberts, where you were born and where you have lived?
Mrs.Roberts. I was born in Nashville, Tenn., and my mother and father moved to Tyler, Tex., and I was raised there and married a Dallas man.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to school in Tyler?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. How far through school did you go?
Mrs.Roberts. To my sorrows, I got married in the ninth grade.
Mr.Ball. You did—you got married in the ninth grade?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you get married in Dallas or in Tyler?
Mrs.Roberts. In Tyler.
Mr.Ball. Did you have some children?
Mrs.Roberts. No; to my sorrows—I couldn't.
Mr.Ball. What did you do in Tyler then—until you came to Dallas?
Mrs.Roberts. I was a PBX operator at the Hotel Blackstone. That's where I met my husband.
Mr.Ball. How long have you lived here?
Mrs.Roberts. Since 1938.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work have you done?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, until he passed away—I didn't work for I didn't have to. He made me a good living, but since that time I have been—well, just, I guess you would call it practical nursing or housekeeping and now I am with an elderly couple—he has cancer—the same kind that Sam Rayburn had and he's taken with leukemia.
Mr.Ball. That's at the address you have just given us?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, you know Mrs. Johnson, don't you?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; I knew her very muchly so.
Mr.Ball. How long did you work for her?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, this last time I was there around 13 months—that was the third time I had went back.
Mr.Ball. When did you start working for her?
Mrs.Roberts. I started working for her in 1949 the first time.
Mr.Ball. You did?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you worked for her three times altogether?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; I got sick the first time—I'm a diabetic and wasn't able to do the work and one day she called me again and wanted to know if I would do it and I went back and stayed again and I went in a coma and had to leave, and the reason why I left this time, she cut me down so low and the work was too heavy—I wasn't able to do the work.
Mr.Ball. You mean she cut you down on your money?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, yes; and I can't pay my doctor bill and buy my medicine at that price.
Mr.Ball. You mean, she didn't pay you enough—that's the reason you quit?
Mrs.Roberts. That's the reason why I quit—the work was too heavy and I wasn't able to do it and not enough pay.
Mr.Ball. And you were working there in October and November of last fall—1963?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; to my sorrows.
Mr.Ball. Why to your sorrows?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, he was registered as O. H. Lee and I come to find out he was Oswald and I wish I had never known it.
Mr.Ball. Why?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, they put me through the third degree.
Mr.Ball. Who did?
Mrs.Roberts. The FBI, Secret Service, Mr. Will Fritz' men and Bill Decker's.
Mr.Ball. They did?
Mrs.Roberts. Every time I would walk out on the front porch somebody was standing with a camera on me—they had me scared to death.
Mr.Ball. When is the first time you ever saw Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Roberts. The day he came in and rented the room—the 14th of October.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever heard of the man before?
Mrs.Roberts. No, and he didn't register as Oswald—he registered as O. H. Lee.
Mr.Ball. Did he sign his name?
Mrs.Roberts. O. H. Lee.
Mr.Ball. Did he sign his own name that way?
Mrs.Roberts. O. H. Lee—that's what he was registered as.
Mr.Ball. Did you rent it to him, or did Mrs. Johnson?
Mrs.Roberts. I rented the room to him.
Mr.Ball. You did?
Mrs.Roberts. She talked to him, and she had to go back to the work and that was what I was supposed to do—I rented the rooms—she didn't know what vacancies she had.
Mr.Ball. Did you have "room for rent" sign out in the front?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What time of day did he come in there?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, it was in the early afternoon—I imagine between 1 and 2 o'clock when he came in and looked at the room; and he rented it and paid for it; and then left, and went and got his things and I don't know—it must have been around 5 or 6 o'clock when he come back in.
Mr.Ball. You say he went and got his things—what did he have with him at first when he came there?
Mrs.Roberts. Just a little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger.
Mr.Ball. What kind of a satchel bag?
Mrs.Roberts. One of them little zip kinds.
Mr.Ball. What color was it?
Mrs.Roberts. It was just—don't ask me that for I can't answer that. It was just a dark bag is all I know.
Mr.Ball. How long did he stay that first time?
Mrs.Roberts. Oswald?
Mr.Ball. I mean before he went away to get his clothes, when he first came in—you say he rented a room?
Mrs.Roberts. He rented the room and paid me $8 for it and he said, "I'll go get my things and I will be back."
Mr.Ball. Did he say where he was going to get them?
Mrs.Roberts. No, he didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did he leave?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; he left.
Mr.Ball. Did he have a car he was riding in?
Mrs.Roberts. I don't know—I didn't see it.
Mr.Ball. Did he take a bus?
Mrs.Roberts. I don't know.
Mr.Ball. You don't know?
Mrs.Roberts. No, I don't. I don't remember—you know in a place like that—when you rent a room—I didn't pay no attention.
Mr.Ball. And he came back about what time?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, I imagine around 5 o'clock, maybe.
Mr.Ball. What did he have with him at that time?
Mrs.Roberts. That little zipper satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger.
Mr.Ball. The first time he came to see you he had a zipper satchel bag?
Mrs.Roberts. No; he didn't have nothing when he first come in and rented the room.
Mr.Ball. He didn't have anything?
Mrs.Roberts. No—he just came in.
Mr.Ball. Oh, when he came back he had the zipper satchel and the clothes on the hanger, is that right?
Mrs.Roberts. No—he rented the room and paid for it and said, "I'll go get my things." That's when he went and come back with his little satchel bag and some clothes on a hanger, which was a very few.
Mr.Ball. Now, did he have anything to say when he came back?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you where he had been?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Did he stay there that night?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever talk to him about anything?
Mrs.Roberts. No; because he wouldn't talk.
Mr.Ball. Did he say "Hello"?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Or, "Goodby"?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Or anything?
Mrs.Roberts. He wouldn't say nothing.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever speak to him?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, yes—I would say, "Good afternoon," and he would just maybe look at me—give me a dirty look and keep walking and go on to his room.
Mr.Ball. Did he watch television?
Mrs.Roberts. No—in a way—but all he did ever watch the television was if someone in the other rooms had it on, maybe he would come and stand at the back of the couch—not over 5 minutes and go to his room and shut the door and never say a word.
Mr.Ball. Did he go out any at night?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Did he stay home every night?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes—he stayed home every night—I didn't ever know of him going out. If he did, he left after I went to bed and I never knew it.
Mr.Ball. Was he gone any weekends?
Mrs.Roberts. He would leave on Friday nights—he did say this much—he said, "Now, over weekends I will be out of town." He didn't say what town. He said, "I will be going out of town visiting friends." He would leave Friday morning for work and he wouldn't come back any more until Monday afternoon.
Mr.Ball. Now, was one weekend when he didn't come back on Monday?
Mrs.Roberts. No; there was one weekend that he didn't go out.
Mr.Ball. Which one was that?
Mrs.Roberts. Now, as far as—you know what?
Mr.Ball. Was that the weekend?
Mrs.Roberts. I think—now, if I had the books, I could tell you.
Mr.Ball. Which books?
Mrs.Roberts. The books that are over there on North Beckley. I believe it was on the weekend before—when was President Kennedy shot?
Mr.Ball. On the 22d of November.
Mrs.Roberts. What day was that—that was on Friday, wasn't it?
Mr.Ball. That was on a Friday.
Mrs.Roberts. Well, it was on the weekend before that.
Mr.Ball. What happened—what was that?
Mrs.Roberts. He didn't go nowhere.
Mr.Ball. He stayed in all weekend, is that right?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes, sir; and then that first Thursday, he got up Thursday and left for work and he didn't come back no more until Friday.
Mr.Ball. He left on Thursday and didn't come home on Thursday night?
Mrs.Roberts. He didn't spend Thursday night there and that was unusual, because he would always leave on Friday. That's the best I can do. He was just the type of person you just don't know—and I just thought he didn't like people and he would mix with nobody and he wouldn't say nothing. The only time he would ever say anything was when his rent was due and he was never behind.
I'll tell you when it was—it was when he didn't come back on Monday, you know, there was a holiday that people took off work.
Mr.Ball. That was Armistice Day.
Mrs.Roberts. That he said, "I have a long weekend."
Mr.Ball. He didn't come back on that Monday?
Mrs.Roberts. No, he didn't come back until the next day. He said he had a long weekend.
Mr.Ball. That was after his long weekend he came back on a Tuesday that week?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember the day the President was shot?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes; I remember it—who would forget that?
Mr.Ball. And the police officers came out there?
Mrs.Roberts. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what they said?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, it was Will Fritz' men—it was plainclothesmen and I was at the back doing something and Mr. Johnson answered the door and they identified themselves and then he called me.
Mr.Ball. What did they say?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, they asked him if there was a Harvey Lee Oswald there.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mrs.Roberts. And he says, "I don't know, I'll have to call the housekeeper," and he called me and I went and got the books and I said, "No; there's no one here by that name," and they tried to make me remember and I couldn't, and Mrs. Johnson come in in the meantime and there wasn't nobody there by that name, and Mrs. Johnson said, "Mrs. Roberts, don't you have him?" And, I said, "No; we don't, for here is my book and there is nobody there by that name." We checked it back a year.
Mr.Ball. And you didn't have that name—you didn't ever know his name was Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Roberts. No—he registered as O. H. Lee and they were asking for Harvey Lee Oswald.
Mr.Ball. You say that you saw Lee Oswald—you say he didn't come home Thursday night that week?
Mrs.Roberts. He didn't come home on Thursday night that week.
Mr.Ball. And Friday was the day the President was shot? Had you seen him at any time that Friday before the officers came up and knocked on your door?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Hadn't he been home?
Mrs.Roberts. Oh, let's see—that was the day.
Mr.Ball. That was on aFriday——
Mrs.Roberts. Wait a minute, let me think of it.
Mr.Ball. That's on a Friday.
Mrs.Roberts. I had better back up a minute—he came home that Friday in an unusual hurry.
Mr.Ball. And about what time was this?
Mrs.Roberts. Well, it was after President Kennedy had been shot and I had a friend that said, "Roberts, President Kennedy has been shot," and I said, "Oh, no." She said, "Turn on your television," and I said "What are you trying to do, pull my leg?" And she said, "Well, go turn it on." I went and turned it on and I was trying to clear it up—I could hear them talking but I couldn't get the picture and he come in and I just looked up and I said, "Oh, you are in a hurry." He never said a thing, not nothing. He went on to his room and stayed about 3 or 4 minutes.
Mr.Ball. As he came in, did you say anything else except, "You are in a hurry"?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you say anything about the President being shot?
Mrs.Roberts. No.
Mr.Ball. You were working with the television?
Mrs.Roberts. I was trying to clear it up to see what was happening and try to find out about President Kennedy.