Within about 3 seconds, there were two more similar reports. And I said, Let's get out of here and looked back, all the way back, then, to where the President's car was, and I saw some confusion, movement there, and the car just seemed to lurch forward.
And, in the meantime, a motorcycle officer had run up on the right-hand side and the chief yelled to him, "Anybody hurt?"
He said, "Yes."
He said, "Lead us to the hospital."
And the chief took his microphone and told them to alert the hospital, and said, Surround the building. He didn't say what building. He just said, "Surround the building." And by that time we had gotten almost in under the underpass, and the President's car had come up and was almost abreast of us.
When I saw them get so close, I said, "Let's get out quick," or "Get going fast," or something to that effect. In other words, I didn't want them to pass us, because I knew we were supposed to be in front.
And that is when they floor-boarded the accelerator on the police car and we got out in front. And someone yelled loudly to go to the nearest hospital.
Mr.Stern. Let's stop there and go back, and then we will pick up again.
You testified that you heard three reports?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Are you pretty certain about that?
Mr.Sorrels. Positive.
Mr.Stern. And no more and no fewer?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Can you you tell us anything about the spacing of these reports?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. There was to me about twice as much time between the first and second shots as there was between the second and third shots.
Mr.Stern. Can you estimate the overall time from the first shot to the third shot?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. I have called it out to myself, I have timed it, and I would say it was very, very close to 6 seconds.
Mr.Stern. It sounds like you can still hear the shots.
Mr.Sorrels. I will hear them forever—it is something I cannot wipe from my mind ever.
Mr.Stern. And you had little doubt that this was gunfire at the time?
Mr.Sorrels. After—as I said before, on the first shot, it was too sharp to be a backfire of an automobile. It just didn't sound like that at all. And then, of course, the other two coming as quickly as they did, and the confusion,there was no question, because I said, "Get out of here," meaning to move out, because certainly if there is anything going on like that, we don't want to even be stationary or near stationary—it is to get out of the vicinity as quickly as we can from the source of danger. I thought in my mind—my thought was that I should maybe get out to try to help apprehend who it was and so forth. There was no chance for that, because we were moving too fast.
Mr.Stern. Now, as to the apparent source of these reports, did you feel that all three reports came from the same direction?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. Definitely so.
Mr.Stern. And that direction, as nearly as you can place it, was what?
Mr.Sorrels. To the right and back. That is about the only way I can express it.
And, as I said, the noise from the shots sounded like they may have come back up on the terrace there. And that is the reason I was looking around like that when the first shot. And I continued to look out until the other two shots. And then I turned on around and looked back to where the President's car was, and that is when I saw some movement there, and the car just seemed to leap forward.
Mr.Stern. When you looked at the terrace to the right of Elm Street, did you observe any unusual movement?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I didn't see anything unusual at that time.
MrStern. Were you looking at that terrace when either the second or third shot was fired?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; I was. And I saw just some movement of some people, but no firearms or anything like that, because we began to move out rather rapidly. And we were quite a ways down the street at that time.
Mr.Stern. How do you mean movement of people?
Mr.Sorrels. It seems I recall someone turned around and was going in the other direction, like moving away from the street. And that is all I can recall.
Mr.Stern. But you didn't observe anything that led you to feel that the shots might have been fired from that terrace there?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. It sounded to you at first as though it came from there?
Mr.Sorrels. That is the way it sounded—back into the rear and to the right, back up in that direction. And in the direction, of course, of the building.
But the reports seemed to be so loud, that it sounded like to me—in other words, that was my first thought, somebody up on the terrace, and that is the reason I looked there.
As we were approaching the overpass there, Mr. Lawson remarked that there was an officer on the overpass there. I saw a police officer standing there, with two or three other persons over to his right.
Mr.Stern. Where is this?
Mr.Sorrels. On the overpass, on Elm Street, after we leave the corner of Elm and Houston.
There was no activity there. They were just standing there.
And I remarked, as I recall. "A policeman is there," or words to that effect, because Mr. Lawson had been checking, as well as myself, all of the overpasses, to see that the officer was there, because that is one of the specific things that was checked all the way through.
Mr.Stern. And you observed nothing unusual on the overpass?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Were the people on the overpass in a fairly tight group, or spread out over the overpass?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, the police officer was about the center of the overpass on Elm Street, and then to his right—I mean to my right which would have been his left, there seemed to be, as I recall it, about three other persons up there that appeared to be workmen or dressed like that, and they were to his right.
They were not right close together, but standing within walking distance.
Mr.Stern. As far as you can recall, were all the people you saw on the overpass within the sight of the policeman on the overpass?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes; they were in the same vicinity.
Mr.Stern. Do you have any reason to believe that any of these shots might have come from the overpass?
Mr.Sorrels. None whatsoever; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. And are you certain in your own mind that they did not come from the overpass?
Mr.Sorrels. Positive.
Mr.Stern. Do you have any reason to believe that the shots could not have come from the Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Would shots from the Book Depository Building have been consistent with your hearing of the shots?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; they would have.
Mr.Stern. What happened next, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr.Sorrels. We proceeded to Parkland Hospital just as fast as we could.
Mr.Stern. Did you go into the hospital?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not go into the hospital.
Of course the lead car was in front. We went around to the emergency entrance. I jumped out of the car, and I expected to see stretchers there, out waiting, but they were not. And I ran to the entrance door there, and at that time they began to bring stretchers out, and I said, "Hurry up and get those stretchers out," and someone else, probably one of the police officers, also said to hurry up and get the stretchers out.
There was a lot of confusion around at that time.
And they did get the stretchers out. And then Mr. Johnson—they brought him into the hospital, he rushed into the hospital. And they took Mr. Connally in, loaded him first, and then the President, and just as quick as they got in there, I immediately went into a police car that was leaving and asked them to take me to the building as fast as they could, and when I said the building I meant the one on the corner there, which was the Book Depository.
Mr.Stern. Why did you designate the Book Depository?
Mr.Sorrels. Because I wanted to get there and get something going in establishing who the people were that were in that vicinity. And upon arrival at the Book Store, we pulled up on the side, and I went in the back door.
Mr.Stern. Just a minute. Had you heard any mention of the Book Depository on police broadcasts as you drove to the hospital?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I never heard anything.
Mr.Stern. And, at this point, you were not certain that the shots came from the Book Depository?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I didn't know at that time.
Mr.Stern. You just wanted to get to that general area?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; because I knew that there would be witnesses around there, there would have to be somebody in that vicinity.
And upon arrival at the Book Depository, I went in the back door.
There were people moving around.
I asked, "Where is the manager here?"
Mr.Stern. Just a minute.
How much time do you think elapsed from the time the shots were fired until the time you returned to the Book Depository?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't believe it could have been over about 20 minutes, because we went to the hospital just as fast as we possibly could, and I wasn't there very long.
And we came back as fast as we could.
Of course we didn't get back as fast as we went out there, because traffic was moving.
The other way it was just cleared out to the Trade Mart. We had clear sailing from the time that the shots were fired until we got to the Trade Mart, because that was the route that we were going to go anyway. And that was cleared out.
But coming back, of course, there was traffic. We did come back under lights and siren, as fast as we could.
But there was traffic that slowed us up some.
Mr.Stern. So you estimate not more than 20 minutes?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't believe it could have been more than 20 or 25 minutes at the very most.
Mr.Stern. Then you arrived at the Book Depository Building, and did you see any police officers outside the building?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; there were officers. I recall seeing officers. I could not say any specific one.
Now, as I came into the back of the building, there was a colored man standing on the rear platform, a loading platform. And he was just standing there looking off into the distance. I don't think he knew what happened.
And I said to him, "Did you see anyone run out the back?"
He said, "No, sir."
Did you see anyone leave the back way?
No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you get his name?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not. I did not stop to do that, because I figured he was an employee of the building.
I went on the inside of the building and asked someone for the manager and they pointed to Mr. Truly.
I identified myself to Mr. Truly.
Mr.Stern. Just a minute.
Did you establish how long that man had been on the loading platform?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Stern. There was no policeman stationed at the loading platform when you came up?
Mr.Sorrels. I did not see one; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. And you were able to enter the building without identifying yourself?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Then you got inside the building and what did you do?
Mr.Sorrels. I asked for the manager, and I was directed to Mr. Truly. He was standing there.
I went up and identified myself to him. I said, "I want to get a stenographer, and we would like to have you put down the names and addresses of every employee of the building, in the building."
And I then walked on out the front door and asked, "Did anyone here see anything?"
And someone pointed to Mr. Brennan.
Mr.Stern. What was your purpose in asking for a list of the employees of the building?
Mr.Sorrels. Because I knew that they would have to be interviewed. I was trying to establish at that time without any delay, who all was in that building or was employed there, because I knew they would have to be talked to later.
In other words, I was looking for someone that saw something.
Mr.Stern. You were looking for potential witnesses?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And at that time you had no basis for suspecting any employee might be involved one way or the other?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; and I did not know at that time that the shots came from the building.
When I was—when Mr. Brennan was pointed out to me, I went up and told him who I was and asked him if he saw anything. And he told me what he had seen. And, at that time, that is the first time that I knew definitely that any shots had come from the building.
Mr.Stern. Now, what precisely did Mr. Brennan tell you?
Mr.Sorrels. Mr. Brennan said that he was standing across the street, watching the parade, and that he, of course, was looking in the direction where the President was, and he heard a sound which he thought at first was a backfire of an automobile. And that shortly afterwards there was another sound, and that he thought that somebody might be throwing firecrackers out of the building.
And he glanced up to the building, and that he saw a man at the window on the right-hand side, the second floor from the top.
And he said, "I could see the man taking deliberate aim and saw him fire the third shot," and said then he just pulled the rifle back in and moved back from the window, just as unconcerned as could be.
Mr.Stern. How did you happen to talk to Mr. Brennan?
Mr.Sorrels. I asked—I don't know who, someone there—"Is there anyone here that saw anything?" And someone said, "That man over there."
He was out in front of the building and I went right to him.
Mr.Stern. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else?
Mr.Sorrels. I asked him whether or not he thought he could identify the person that he saw, and he, of course, gave me a description of him, said that he appeared to be a slender man, he had on what appeared to be a light jacket or shirt or something to that effect, and that he thought he could identify him—said he was slender build. Because I was definitely interested in someone that had seen something that could give us some definite information.
And I also asked if he had seen anybody else, and he pointed to a young colored boy there, by the name of Euins. And I got him and Mr. Brennan, and I took them over to the sheriff's office where we could get statements from them.
Mr.Stern. What was the name of that young man?
Mr.Sorrels. Euins, I believe it is, or pretty close to that.
Mr.Stern. Did you interview Mr. Euins?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; I did. And he also said that he had heard the noise there, and that he had looked up and saw the man at the window with the rifle, and I asked him if he could identify the person, and he said, no, he couldn't, he said he couldn't tell whether he was colored or white.
Mr.Stern. Do you remember anything unusual about the way Mr. Brennan was dressed?
Mr.Sorrels. He was dressed as a workman, or a laborer, and he had on a hard hat.
Mr.Stern. Construction hat?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did Mr. Brennan tell you anything else about anything else he had observed at that time?
Mr.Sorrels. I can't recall any specific thing.
Mr.Stern. Did he mention seeing any other person or persons in the windows of the Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't recall whether he did or did not.
Mr.Stern. Did he say anything about observing anyone leave the Book Depository Building hurriedly after the shooting?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did he point out to you precisely the window from which he said he saw the shot fired, the window in which he saw the sniper?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Where was that window in relation to the windows at which you saw several Negro men as you drove on Houston Street?
Mr.Sorrels. It was one floor above and a little bit to the right, as I recall it.
Mr.Stern. Can you give us these directions in terms of compass points?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. That would be on the east side of the building.
Mr.Stern. So the window that Mr. Brennan pointed out to you was on the extreme east side?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And the window or windows at which you had observed several Negro men was more to the west?
Mr.Sorrels. A little bit more to the west—not very much—but to the west, on the floor below.
Mr.Stern. Are you certain in your mind about the floor below?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, I am.
Mr.Stern. Is there any particular reason for that? You said before that you essentially glanced at the building, and didn't have very long to observe it, and you saw these men at the window.
What makes you certain about placing the men on any particular floor?
Mr.Sorrels. Well, because I remember that they were not near the top—I can just remember that—it seemed to me like two floors down from the top, as I recall having seen them. And, of course, when I got back to the building down there, there were windows open on the floor below at the place where I recall having seen the colored men.
Mr.Stern. So it was the open window afterwards that helped you recall?
Mr.Sorrels. That is right.
Mr.Stern. And are you certain that those were the same open windows?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, I think they were. I don't have any reason to think otherwise.
Mr.Stern. Then you accompanied Brennan and Euins where?
Mr.Sorrels. To the sheriff's office, which was right across the street from the Book Depository.
Mr.Stern. Did you have any further conversation with them on the way over there?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes; we discussed—I was talking to him on the way over there about what they saw and observed, and told them we would like to come in there where we could get their statements down in writing.
Mr.Stern. Did they tell you anything that you have not already told us?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall.
The little colored boy mentioned he was there with another colored boy that ran off when this thing happened—at the first shot this boy ran off. He said he stayed there, but the other boy ran off. I didn't make any effort to get in touch with him, because he apparently saw nothing.
Mr.Stern. Then you took them into the sheriff's office?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. What was going on in the sheriff's office?
Mr.Sorrels. At that time one of the deputy sheriffs was in the interrogation room taking a statement from some witness there. And I did not want to just stay there and wait too long, so I asked him would he also write up the statements on it—Mr. Brennan and the colored boy. And I then started out in the hall of the sheriff's office there with the idea of going back to see if I could locate other witnesses, when Chief Deputy Sheriff Mr. Allan Sweatt told me there was another witness across the hallway, near Mr. Sweatt's office—he is the polygraph operator there, and his office is not in the same area as the sheriff's office but across the hall—that there was an FBI agent taking a statement over there from a person.
So I accompanied him over there and hadn't been in there but just a few minutes until Mr. Sweatt came and called me out and says "Forrest, there are some people here I think you ought to talk to."
Mr.Stern. Whose statement was being taken by the FBI?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't recall. And, at thattime——
Mr.Stern. Do you recall what their statement was—what their testimony was?
Mr.Sorrels. No, I don't, because I wasn't in there but just a very short time. And this FBI agent was questioning about what they had seen and so forth. I don't recall—it was being taken down at the time.
So I went out, and they had Mr. and Mrs. Arnold there. And Mr. Arnold, a young man, and his wife, very young, said that they were standing on the side of the street on Houston Street, there by the courthouse building, and that they—this is prior to the time of the arrival of the President there, some 20 to 25 minutes beforehand, he said.
Mr.Stern. This is the east side?
Mr.Sorrels. That would be the east side of Houston Street.
Mr.Stern. Are you certain about the name of this couple? I believe you said Arnold.
Mr.Sorrels.Well——
Mr.Stern. Could that have been his first name?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, that could have been his first name.
Mr.Stern. Can you recall his second name?
Mr.Sorrels. I would know it if I heard it.
Mr.Stern. Could it have been Roland?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, Roland is right.
Mr.Stern. What did they tell you?
Mr.Sorrels. He said that they were standing there waiting for the President to come by, and they were talking about security. And he said that right after that, that he looked up at this building over there, which is the Book Depository, and that there were a couple of windows open towards the west side, and that he saw a man standing in there with what appeared to be a rifle with a telescopic sight.
Mr.Stern. Towards the west side?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes—two windows towards the west side.
And that he remarked to his wife, "I guess that is a Secret Service man."
And I asked her if she saw it, and she said, no, that she had left her glasses home, and she is nearsighted, and she could not see him. And, of course, I asked him the description of the man. I asked him "How could you determine—what made you think it had a telescopic sight on it?"
He said, "Well, it seemed like it was wider on the light background."
I said, "How was he holding it?"
He said, port arms—he was standing several feet back away from the window.
And I asked him, "Could you identify that man?"
He said, "No, I could not."
Mr.Stern. Did Mrs. Roland confirm that he had discussed this with her?
Mr.Sorrels. She confirmed the conversation, but she said she could not see anything, because she didn't have her glasses.
Mr.Stern. Did Mr. Roland tell you he had seen anyone else in the windows of the Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sorrels. I don't recall that he did. I don't recall that at all. He may have, but I don't recall that.
Mr.Stern. Did he mention anyone on the sixth floor, and particularly on the extreme east side of the sixth floor?
Mr.Sorrels. No, I don't recall that he mentioned anyone there.
Mr.Stern. What was your impression of what he told you?
Mr.Sorrels. Well, of course, the thing that hit me first thing is why—he was right there by the sheriff's office, if he had just gone in there and said, Look, I saw a man with a rifle over there.
I said, "Why didn't you say something to somebody about it?"
He said, "I just thought he was a Secret Service man."
And at that time he appeared to be, as far as I was concerned, truthful about the matter.
Mr.Stern. You didn't have any reason to doubt him?
Mr.Sorrels. No.
Mr.Stern. And would the same be true of what Mr. Brennan told you, and Euins?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you look towards the window that Roland had pointed out from the spot at which he said he was standing, to see whether it was possible to observe from there someone standing several feet back from the window? Did you have occasion to check that?
Mr.Sorrels. Well, no, not specifically.
Later on I heard that he had—I believe in his statement that he wrote up down there at the sheriff's office, something about 15 feet back. And I thought to myself, well, I don't think you could see anybody that far back.
Mr.Stern. But he didn't tell you that?
Mr.Sorrels. No, he just said he was standing back of the window there, just kind of looking around there. He said after he saw him there, he didn't pay any more attention, because he just thought it was a Secret Service man.
Mr.Stern. What happened next?
Mr.Sorrels. There was another witness there that I started talking to—I don't recall the name now, because I told him to go in—somebody that saw a truck down there—this is before the parade ever got there—that apparently had stalled down there on Elm Street. And I later checked on that, and found out that the car had gone dead, apparently belonged to some construction company,and that a police officer had come down there, and they had gone to the construction company and gotten somebody to come down and get the car out of the way.
Apparently it was just a car stalled down there.
But this lady said she thought she saw somebody that looked like they had a guncase. But then I didn't pursue that any further—because then I had gotten the information that the rifle had been found in the building and shells and so forth.
At that time Mr. Harry McCormack, who is a reporter for the Dallas Morning News, and whom I have known for many years, came to me and says, "Forrest, I have something over here you ought to know about."
I said, "What have you got here?"
He said, "I have a man over here that got pictures of this whole thing."
I said, "Let's go see him."
So we went on to a building at the corner of Elm and Houston, on the east side of Houston, and across the street from the court house building there, and up to the office of a Mr. Zapruder, they have a dress manufacturing place there in that building. And he was there with another man connected with the business there, and apparently some magazine representatives there. And Mr. Zapruder was real shook up. He said that he didn't know how in the world he had taken these pictures, that he was down there and was taking the thing there, and he says, "My God, I saw the whole thing. I saw the man's brains come out of his head."
And so I asked Mr. Zapruder would it be possible for us to get a copy of those films.
He said, yes.
So then accompanied by Mr. Zapruder, and this other gentleman in the business there with him, whose name I don't recall at the moment, and Mr. McCormack, we went then to the Dallas Morning News Building, which is about three blocks from Mr. Zapruder's building, three or four blocks from there, with the idea of getting those films developed right away.
There was no one there that would tackle the job. We then went to the television section, WFAA, of the Dallas Morning News, to see if we could get them to handle it there, and they said, no, they would not attempt to do that, but they did assist us by calling Eastman Kodak Co., and they said if we came out there right away, that they would get right on it.
We got a police car, and went right on out to the Eastman Kodak Co., and while there I met another gentleman who had seen some still pictures, and I arranged with him for us to get copies of those.
Mr.Stern. What was his name—do you recall?
Mr.Sorrels. He is a salesman for the Ford Co. on West Commerce Street—Mr. Willis.
And so he said, yes, that he would be glad to furnish me with a copy of the pictures.
At that time, I made a phone call to my office, because I had not been in contact with them since we had departed from Love Field. I was informed that an FBI agent had called the office and said that Captain Fritz of the Homicide Bureau had been trying to get in touch with me, that he had a suspect in custody.
Mr.Stern. About what time was that?
Mr.Sorrels. That would be fairly close to 2 o'clock, I imagine.
Mr.Stern. About an hour after you hadreturned——
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. I would say that it was at least that long—maybe a little bit longer.
So when I got that information, I told Mr. Zapruder that I would contact him later and get the pictures, because I wanted to get right down to Captain Fritz' office.
So I left then with the same police car and had them take me to Captain Fritz' office.
And upon arrival there, there was many officers around there, there was already cameras out in the hall, tripods, and so forth, and all of the city hall down there. And there was a number of officers in the detective bureau officethere, and Captain Fritz' office, which is an office within the large office, was closed, and the blinds were drawn in his office there.
I did not knock on the door or anything, because I did not want to interfere with him if he was talking to someone. So I just waited there until Captain Fritz opened the door, and he had a man who I later found out to be Oswald in custody at the time.
And I told Captain Fritz, I said, "Captain, I would like to talk to this man when I have an opportunity."
He said, "You can talk to him right now."
And he just took him on back around to the side of Captain Fritz' office, and there was a number of other officers there, might have been some FBI agents, too, there, because there were numbers of FBI agents around in that vicinity almost all the time from that time on. And some of the detectives there.
And I started talking to Oswald, started asking him some questions, and he was arrogant and a belligerent attitude about him.
And he said to me, "I don't know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops."
And I said, "Well, I will tell you who I am. My name is Sorrels and I am with the United States Secret Service, and here is my commission book."
I held it out in front of him and he said, "I don't want to look at it."
And he held his head up and wouldn't look at it at all. And he said, "What am I going to be charged with? Why am I being held here? Isn't someone supposed to tell me what my rights are?"
I said, "Yes, I will tell you what your rights are. Your rights are the same as that of any American citizen. You do not have to make a statement unless you want to. You have the right to get an attorney."
Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney?
No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney.
Aren't you supposed to get me an attorney?
I said, "No, I am not supposed to get you an attorney, because if I got you an attorney, they would say I was probably getting a rakeoff on the fee," or words to that effect, and kind of smiled and tried to break the ice a little bit there.
I said, "You can have the telephone book and you can call anybody you want to."
I said, "I just want to ask you some questions. I am in on this investigation. I just want to ask you some questions."
Mr.Stern. Was there anything further said about an attorney?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall at that time. I don't recall anything further said about an attorney. I asked him where he worked. He told me worked at this Book Depository. And as I recall it, I asked him what his address was, and where he was living, and he explained to me that he was living apart from his wife, and that she was living over in Irving, Tex. I asked him, as I recall it, what his duties were at this Book Depository, and he said filling orders.
I asked him if he had occasion to be on more than one floor, and he said, yes.
I asked him if he had occasion to be on the sixth floor of the building. He said, yes, because they fill orders from all the floors.
But he said most of his activity was down on the first floor.
And I think I asked him whether or not he had ever been in a foreign country, and he said that he had traveled in Europe, but more time had been spent in the Soviet Union, as I recall it.
And then he just said "I don't care to answer any more questions."
And so the conversation was terminated.
Mr.Stern. Did he give you his address?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, he did give me an address. I don't remember what it was offhand.
Mr.Stern. Then were you finished with your questions, or did he refuse to answer any more?
Mr.Sorrels. He just said, "I don't care to answer any more questions."
Mr.Stern. You wanted to ask him other questions?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes.
Mr.Stern. And what happened then?
Mr.Sorrels. He was taken by the officers, as I recall it, and was taken out of that area and I suppose put back in jail.
Mr.Stern. Did you then talk to Captain Fritz?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. As I recall it, I asked Captain Fritz whether or not he had gotten anything out of him or not, and Captain Fritz said that he hadn't been able—that he had not made any admissions or anything like that at that time, and that he was going to talk to him again.
That is all I recall that transpired at that time.
Of course I contacted the Chief's office, when I got that information as to who he was, and gave that information to them.
Mr.Stern. This is Chief Rowley?
Mr.Sorrels. I think I talked to Deputy Chief Paterni.
Mr.Stern. Of the Secret Service here in Washington?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did anything else transpire between that time and the Friday night showup?
Mr.Sorrels. I did not talk to Oswald again, and I was around there. When I contacted Washington, I was informed that Inspector Kelley was being directed to be there, and he would be there later on that evening, that they had caught him out on the road, and he would come there to help out.
I also got information to Captain Fritz that I had this witness, Brennan, that I had talked to, and that I would like very much for him to get a chance to see Oswald in a lineup. And Captain Fritz said that would be fine.
So I instructed Special Agent Patterson, I believe it was, after I had located Brennan—had quite a difficult time to locate him, because he wasn't at home. And they finally prevailed upon his wife to try to help me locate him, and she, as I recall it, said that she would see if she could locate him by phone. I called her, I believe, the second time and finally got a phone number and called him and told him we would like for him to come down and arrange for him to meet one of our agents to pick him up at the place there. And when they came down there with him, I got ahold of Captain Fritz and told him that the witness was there, Mr. Brennan.
He said, "I wish he would have been here a little sooner, we just got through with a lineup. But we will get another fixed up."
So I took Mr. Brennan, and we went to the assembly room, which is also where they have the lineup, and Mr. Brennan, upon arrival at the police station, said, "I don't know if I can do you any good or not, because I have seen the man that they have under arrest on television," and he said, "I just don't know whether I can identify him positively or not" because he said that the man on television was a bit disheveled and his shirt was open or something like that, and he said "The man I saw was not in that condition."
So when we got to the assembly room, Mr. Brennan said he would like to get quite a ways back, because he would like to get as close to the distance away from where he saw this man at the time that the shooting took place as he could.
And I said, "Well, we will get you clear on to the back and then we can move up forward."
They did bring Oswald in in a lineup.
He looked very carefully, and then we moved him up closer and so forth, and he said, "I cannot positively say."
I said, "Well, is there anyone there that looks like him?"
He said, "Well, that second man from the left," who was Oswald—"he looks like him."
Then he repeated that the man he saw was not disheveled.
Now, mind you, Oswald had a slight wound over here, and he had a black eye, a bruised eye.
Mr.Stern. When you say "overhere"——
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, on the left side. He had a mark on his forehead, and his left eye was a bit puffed.
Mr.Stern. How many other people were in the lineup?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, there were five. In other words, all told there was five or six—I don't remember. I believe there were five.
Mr.Stern. Were the others reasonably similar to Oswald in height and physical appearance, and color?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Dress?
Mr.Sorrels. I noted that to me I thought it was a very fair lineup, because they didn't have anyone that was a lot taller than he was, or anyone a lot shorter. They didn't have any big fat ones or anything like that.
In other words, to me it was a good lineup.
Mr.Stern. At that time, did Mr. Brennan say anything else to you that you have not told us, or to anyone else?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall. He says, "I am sorry, but I can't do it. I was afraid seeing the television might have messed me up. I just can't be positive. I am sorry."
Mr.Stern. As far as you know, had Mr. Brennan been interviewed by anyone after he gave his statement to the deputy sheriff until the time you had him brought to the police headquarters?
Mr.Sorrels. No; not to my knowledge.
Mr.Stern. Was he then interviewed by anyone?
Mr.Sorrels. I couldn't say.
Mr.Stern. Did you arrange for him to return to his home?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, I did. I told him "they will take you back to your home."
Mr.Stern. Immediately after the lineup?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Have you ever spoken to Mr. Brennan again after that day?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; I have.
Mr.Stern. When was that?
Mr.Sorrels. We were assisting the Commission in locating witnesses to come to Washington, to the Commission, and I got in touch with him and arranged for him to go and procured his ticket and delivered his ticket to him.
Mr.Stern. And when you talked to him then, did he say anything that bears upon our inquiry that he hadn't said before?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall.
Mr.Stern. Mr. Sorrels, when you were at the police headquarters, after this interview with Oswald that you have told us about, do you recall talking to any representative of the FBI?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Stern. Who was that?
Mr.Sorrels. Now, let's get that question again, because I talked to them several times down there.
When was that you said?
Mr.Stern. After you interviewed Oswald.
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr.Stern. Do you know an FBI agent attached to the Dallas office named James Hosty?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr.Stern. Did you talk to Mr. Hosty that you recall?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall; no, sir.
Mr.Stern. Might you have spoken to him, or do you think you would remember that?
Mr.Sorrels. I think I would remember it.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall his being there?
Mr.Sorrels. I think I saw him there.
Now, whether it was on the 22d or not, but I think during along this period, I saw him there one time.
But I don't recall talking to Mr. Hosty at all down there.
Mr.Stern. Did any of the agents attached to your office tell you that they had talked to Hosty? Or that Hosty had told them anything?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; I think Special Agent Patterson, I believe, said that he had seen Hosty down there, and that Hosty, I believe, had said that he had a file on Oswald.
Mr.Stern. Do you recall anything else that Agent Patterson told you that Mr. Hosty had told him?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I cannot recall anything else. Because I had information—had also gotten information from others. In other words, there was general information around the Police Department there that the FBI had a file on this individual.
Mr.Stern. Any other of your agents tell you that Hosty had said anything to them about Oswald that you can recall?
Mr.Sorrels. You mean at that specific date, regarding that specific date?
Mr.Stern. Either on Friday or on Saturday.
Mr.Sorrels. No. During the course of this thing, it was my understanding that—I don't remember how the information came to me—that Hosty had been checking on this Oswald, and that they had information or knew that he was in this building. I cannot pinpoint it any way specifically, because the information came several different times to that effect.
Mr.Stern. Now, you told us something of Oswald's physical appearance when you saw him at the interview.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. And at the showup.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did his appearance change in the course of that time?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall.
Mr.Stern. Over that 3-day period, did you see any sign that force or any other form of coercion was used on Oswald by anyone?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you observe or hear of any intimidation of Oswald or the offer of any benefit to Oswald if he were to confess?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Stern. Did you participate in or observe any other interrogation of Oswald following your own brief interrogation?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Stern. When was that?
Mr.Sorrels. On the followingday——
Mr.Stern. That is Saturday, the 23d?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; I sat in on part of an interview with him, with Captain Fritz. And then, again, on Sunday the 24th, just before he was shot.
Mr.Stern. Did the question of counsel come up again—that is, a lawyer for Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. During the interview with Captain Fritz, when I was in there, he mentioned the fact that he wanted to get a man by the name of Abt, or some similar name like that. I never had heard of him before. Apt, or some similar name.
And Captain Fritz said, "Well, you can use the phone and you can call him."
Mr.Stern. When was this?
Mr.Sorrels. That was Saturday morning. And it is my understanding that Oswald did attempt to reach this man on the phone.
Mr.Stern. But you didn't observe it?
Mr.Sorrels. I did not observe that; no.
Mr.Stern. Did you hear him mention at any time a lawyer from the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. He said if he could not get this man—I wish I could remember his name—a very short name, Apt or something like that.
Mr.Stern. A-b-t?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, A-b-t. Yes—if he couldn't get him, he wanted a lawyer supplied by the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr.Stern. What else occurred at the interview on Saturday that you can remember?
Mr.Sorrels. He was questioned about the rifle, because, at that time, as I recall it, it had been determined that the rifle had been purchased from Kleins in Chicago, and shipped to a person using the name of A. Hidell. And he was questioned by Captain Fritz along those lines. And he denied that the rifle was his. He denied knowing or using the name of A. Hidell, or Alek Hidell.
He was, of course, questioned about his background and he at that time still maintained an arrogant, defiant attitude. The questions were, of course, directed towards getting information. A lot of them he would not answer. And a lot of the answers, of course, were apparent falsehoods.
And he gave me the impression of lying to Captain Fritz, and deliberately doing so, maybe with an attempt to get Captain Fritz to become angered, because he, Oswald, would flare up in an angry manner from time to time.
Mr.Stern. But you think that was acting—not genuine?
Mr.Sorrels. That is the impression I got, that he was just deliberately doing that, possibly to agitate Captain Fritz and maybe get him to become angry, and maybe do or say something that he shouldn't do.
That is just the impression I gained from him. And the reason—I guess one reason I gained that impression is because on the last interview, on Sunday morning, Oswald seemed to have taken a little bit different attitude. In other words, he was talking a little bit freer—he wasn't giving out any information of any value particularly, but he wasn't flaring up like he did before.
Mr.Stern. Was that Sunday interview extended beyond any time that you know of that it was scheduled to end?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; it was, because the papers seemed to have gotten the impression that he was going to be moved at exactly 10 o'clock in the morning, and Captain Fritz was talking to him even after 11 o'clock in the morning—we were still there. And I recall that Chief Curry came around and asked Captain Fritz how long he was going to be, or what was holding it up, or something like that, that they wanted to go ahead and get him moved as quick as they could.
Mr.Stern. Did be indicate or did you understand that they wanted to move him at 10 o'clock?
Mr.Sorrels. It was after 10 o'clock then, considerably. As a matter of fact, it was after 11 at that time. Captain Fritz remarked to me afterwards, he said, "Well, as long as it looks like he might talk, I hesitate to quit, or move him out at that time," and he told Chief Curry, "We will be through in a few minutes."
And shortly after that, Captain Fritz asked if anyone wanted to ask him any questions, and, at that time, the postal inspector had obtained a change of address card which Oswald had apparently filled out in which one of the names shown on that change of address card that was to receive mail at that particular address in New Orleans was named A. Hidell. And I desired to question Oswald about that thing, because he had denied purchasing this rifle under the name of A. Hidell, and he denied knowing anybody by the name of A. Hidell.
So I showed Oswald this change of address card and said to him, "Now, here is a change of address card that you filed in New Orleans," and he looked at it.
He did not deny that he had filed the card, because it was apparently in his handwriting, and his signature. And I said, "Now you say that you have not used the name of A. Hidell, but you show it on this card here as the name of A. Hidell, as a person to receive mail at this address. If you do not know anyone by that name, why would you have that name on that card?"
He said, "I never used the name of Hidell."
Mr.Stern. That was the last question he was asked?
Mr.Sorrels. As far as I know.
Mr.Stern. And then what happened?
Mr.Sorrels. He was told that they were going to move him to the county jail, and he requested that he be permitted to get a shirt out of his—the clothes that had been brought in, that belonged to him, because the shirt he was wearing at the time he had been apprehended was taken, apparently for laboratory examination. And so Captain Fritz sent and got his clothes and, as I recall it, he selected a dark colored kind of a sweater type shirt, as I recall it. And then he was taken out, and, at that time, as I recall it, Inspector Kelley and I left and went up to—I say up—down the hall to the executive office area of the police department, and to the office of Deputy Chief Batchelor.
And we remained in that vicinity. I looked out the window, and saw the people across the street, on Commerce Street, people were waiting there. And I saw an individual that I know by the name of Ruby Goldstein, who is knownas Honest Joe, that has a second-hand tool and pawnshop down on Elm Street, and everyone around there knows him. He was leaning on the car looking over in the direction of the ramp there at the police station. And we were just waiting around there.
And for a few minutes I was talking to one of the police officers that was on duty up there in that area. And he had made the remark, "talking about open windows, I see one open across the street over there" at a building across the street.
I looked over there. I didn't see any activity at the window. And we had walked out into the reception area of the executive office of the Chief of Police there when this same police officer said that he just heard that Oswald had got shot in the stomach in the basement by Jack Rubin, as I understood at that time, R-u-b-i-n—who was supposed to run a night club.
Inspector Kelley and I then went just as hurriedly as we could to the basement.
Mr.Stern. As I understand it, Mr. Sorrels, you covered all the relevant information from this point of time on with Mr. Hubert yesterday.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. And actually back just a little bit.
Mr.Stern. Is there anything that has occurred to you since your interview with Mr. Hubert that you would like to add now, to amplify anything you said yesterday to him?
Mr.Sorrels. We were trying to establish something about the time yesterday morning that this transpired and so forth. And I could not fix any exact time.
But knowing the fact that Oswald, I believe, is reported to have been shot at 11:21, I believe it is, and the fact that when we got into the basement of the City Hall there at a time when Oswald was still on the floor there, and was being given artificial respiration, as I said yesterday, and I immediately called my headquarters office in Washington and told them about Oswald being shot by Jack Rubin, a night club operator. And they asked me, of course, to get additional information and call them back.
And from that telephone call, which went through very rapidly, I went back upstairs—didn't tarry there at all. And Oswald was still there when I left and went back upstairs to Captain Fritz' office, because my thought was to talk to this man Jack Rubin as fast as I could.
Captain Fritz was not there. They said he went to the hospital. I asked where Ruby was. They said he was up on the fifth floor. I said I would like to talk to him. And I was sent with an officer to the jail elevator, went right on up there.So——
Mr.Stern. Have you been able to establish the time of your phone call to DeputyChief——
Mr.Sorrels. No, I have not been able to establish it. But after thinking the thing over, and the fact that Oswald was still there at the time this call was made, I would say that that phone call was probably made between 11:25 and 11:30, I would say.
Mr.Stern. Fine.
Mr. Sorrels had you discussed with any official of the Dallas Police the plans to move Oswald during a scheduled daylight hour, before the move was made?
Mr.Sorrels. When I heard that he was supposed to be moved at 10 o'clock in the morning, I said to Captain Fritz—and as I recall this conversation—I said to him, "Captain, I wouldn't move that man at an announced time. I would take him out at 3 or 4 o'clock in the morning, when there is nobody around."
And Captain Fritz said, "Well, the chief has gone along with these people," talking about the press and television people, and said that he wanted to continue going along with them and cooperating with them all he can. And that was all that was said about that.
I did not make that suggestion, or have a conversation like that with Chief Curry, as I recall, because I did not want to appear that I was trying to tell them how to run their business.
Mr.Stern. What were conditions like in the third floor corridor of police headquarters from Friday through Sunday?
Mr.Sorrels. Mr. Stern, you would almost have to be there to see it, to actually realize the conditions. The press and the television people just, as the expressiongoes, took over. I would almost every time I went up there, definitely after the 22d, I would have to identify myself to get in past the entrance of the elevator on the third floor, if I was going to the chief's office or the deputy chief's office or Captain Fritz' office. You would have to elbow your way through, and step over tripods and cables and wires, and every time almost that I would come out of Captain Fritz's office, the minute the door opened, they would flash on those bright lights, and I got where I just shadowed my eyes when I walked down there to keep the light from shining in my eyes. They had cables run through one of the deputy chief's office, right through the windows from the street up the side of the building, across the floor, out to the boxes where they could get power—they had wires running out of that, had the wires taped down to keep people from actually falling or stumbling over the wires. And it was just a condition that you can hardly explain. It was just almost indescribable.
I know at one time when Mr. Jim Underwood of KRLD, that is the Dallas Time Herald Television Station down there, was in Captain Fritz' office with Jack Ruby's sister, and a lady friend of hers, trying to arrange for her to get up to talk to Jack Ruby, that the police officer who was stationed at the door to the detective's office had a terrific time keeping them—I thought they were going to barge on in there. They were yelling like mad—because Mr. Underwood was in there, and one of them was there yelling—"if he has got a right to be in here, we have a right to be in there."
Just as loud as he could. And Mr. Underwood had to leave Captain Fritz' office and say, "Listen, fellows, I am not going upstairs. I am trying to make arrangements for this woman to see her brother—I am not going upstairs."
That was just the situation you were booked up against there.
And, of course, every time you would turn around, they would ask me something, and I would say, "No comment, I don't have any comment to make."
And I don't think at any time you will see that there is any statement made by the newspapers or television that we said anything because Mr. Kelley, the Inspector, told me "Any information that is given out will have to come from Inspector Peterson in Washington."
Finally, after they found out I would not say anything, they didn't bother me any more.
Many times when I would be going into the third floor area there, they would start to stop me, and a lot of the guys that would know me would say, "That is Sorrels of the Secret Service."
That happened more than once.
And, of course, I would have to go ahead and identify myself. The officers that were on duty that had seen me before would recognize me and pass me through.
Mr.Stern. Can you estimate how many press representatives there were in that corridor?
Mr.Sorrels. I am not too good in estimating anything like that, but there were dozens of them.
Mr.Stern. Was any effort made to restrict them to a far part of the corridor, or to remove them from the floor entirely that you know of?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I know of.
Mr.Stern. Did you ever learn why this was not done—did you ever ask?
Mr.Sorrels. No, I did not. I just thought to myself—well, if this was being handled in a Federal building, this situation would not exist. That is what I thought.
But, of course, that is a public building. I thought to myself—well, they are in here, and the chief would have a heck of a time getting them out. That is just my own thoughts about the thing, because I do know that the Dallas Police Department, the Dallas Sheriff's Office, they do try to go along with the press and everything like that.
After this thing happened, Mr. Felix McKnight, who I mentioned before, who is a personal friend of mine, executive editor of the Dallas Times Herald, he said to me, "Forrest, those people should have been out of there, and that includes us."
Of course the thing was all over then. I would imagine that Chief Curryor anybody else that would have tried to have gotten them out of there would have really had a tough time and they probably would have really blasted them in the press.