Mr.Belin. Was that Detective H. M. Moore?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. We went on over, the four of us—me, Detective Moore, Judge Johnston, and Mr. Alexander—went over to 1026 North Beckley where this Lee Oswald had a room in it.
Mr.Belin. You went over there on November 22?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Now according to one record that I have of a search warrant, it is dated November 23. Do you have any particular knowledge whether the search warrant was actually dated November 22 or November 23?
Mr.Turner. I don't remember the date on it, but I know he had the warrant made out, and handed it to me when I got in the car, but I don't remember the date on the warrant.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. We looked through this room and picked up everything in it that didn't belong with the house, you know.
Mr.Belin. Where was W. E. Potts and Bill Senkel?
Mr.Turner. They were along with Lieutenant Cunningham and the three were there when we got there.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. We picked up all the articles and brought them to the homicide and robbery office of the city hall.
Mr.Belin. You made out an inventory of them there?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. I am handing you what has been marked "Moore Deposition Exhibit 1," and ask you to state whether this appears to be a copy of an inventory that you made?
Mr.Turner. I think all ofthis——
Mr.Belin. Just asecond——
Mr.Turner. We got stuff out of two or three different places. Here is the typed-up list of the copies that I made.
Mr.Belin. You made a typed-up list of things that you picked up at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Are these the things that you picked up?
Mr.Turner. That is the same that was picked up there.
Mr.Belin. Was this a complete list, or might there have been other things?
Mr.Turner. There is some articles of clothing that is not listed. It is just listed as miscellaneous clothing and so forth.
Mr.Belin. This is your original?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; that is a carbon.
Mr.Belin. This is a carbon? Who typed the carbon?
Mr.Turner. Well, the carbon was made at the time the original was made by one of the secretaries in the—our office.
Mr.Belin. Who dictated it?
Mr.Turner. Well, that is a different thing. She took it out of this notebook, and Mr. Moore wrote part of it in the notebook and I wrote part.
Mr.Belin. In other words, these are copies [of] notebooks that you had?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Well, let's mark this as an exhibit. Let's mark this as "Turner Deposition Exhibit 1," which I will offer to introduce in evidence.
Do you need this back?
Mr.Turner. No; I am sure we have other copies. That is a copy I had inmy locker. I mean, that is probably the same. They might have made a more detailed description of it down at the property room.
Mr.Belin. All right, what did you do after you left the Beckley residence?
Did you talk to the landlady there at all? Or not?
Mr.Turner. Talked to her, but I can't recall her name. There was a Mrs. Johnson and Mr. Johnson and Earlene Roberts. There were two or three people there.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember anything that anyone said at that time?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I don't. Mr. Potts and Senkel and Cunningham were waiting for us to bring the warrant, so they had been talking to them before we did.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember finding a leather gun holster?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; there was a holster found.
Mr.Belin. Now, what did you do after that?
Mr.Turner. After we brought this stuff to the office?
Mr.Belin. Yes.
Mr.Turner. Well, by that time the phones and everything else were going wild. I answered phones around there for quite a while. I believe I did take an affidavit from a sister of the boy that worked with Oswald at the Texas School Book Depository, the boy that he rode to work with that morning.
Mr.Belin. What do you do when you take an affidavit, by the way? How do you go about doing it?
Mr.Turner. Well, I just take the—let them tell the story, and write it down in longhand, and get the secretary to type it up, and let them sign it in front of a notary.
Mr.Belin. Do you have an affidavit in front of you or your notes from this Linnie Mae Randle, this sister of the boy that drove him to work, or not?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you throw those out once the affidavit is typed up?
Mr.Turner. I don't believe they ever gave it back to us. I guess the secretary, she might have filed it somewhere.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you did that day?
Mr.Turner. That is the only affidavit I can remember taking in this thing.
Mr.Belin. All right, what happened? Anything else on that day that you think is important insofar as the assassination is concerned?
Mr.Turner. I don't think of anything. Let me look through these notes here and see about where we are. As far as that day goes, that is about it.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Do you remember when you were out at 1026 North Beckley finding a passport at all? Does that ring a bell with you?
Mr.Turner. I think there was a passport, maybe one or two.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember whether or not there was any kind of vaccination card, one of those yellow health organization vaccination cards which bears the name of Lee Oswald? Do you remember whether there was any of those there or not?
Mr.Turner. I don't recall that.
Mr.Belin. You don't remember whether there was or was not?
Mr.Turner. I don't remember whether there was or was not; no, sir.
Mr.Belin. What about the next day, Saturday, November 23?
Mr.Turner. Just nothing of importance that I did that day, that I know of, except I came to work, like I said.
They had to put in four or five extra phones up there, and it kept lots of us busy answering the phone.
Mr.Belin. At that time did you ever get involved in any interrogation sessions with Oswald?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I never was.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever get involved in any showups of Oswald?
Mr.Turner. No, sir. I think I might have got right in on the tail end of one down there, but I don't recall the details. I think I walked in just as they were winding up on him one night.
Mr.Belin. Did you receive any phone calls about anyone that tried to identify the rifle as to where it might have been purchased from?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I did. On one of the phone calls, but I don't knowthe man's name that called, but he did state that he had seen a picture. This was probably Saturday, the next day. He stated that he had seen this picture somewhere of this rifle, that was found, and he stated this about this Klein's Sporting Goods of Chicago had an exact replica in a magazine that he had seen, and I passed that along to Captain Fritz, and he already had the information.
Mr.Belin. Anything—any other information come in on Saturday of any importance?
Mr.Turner. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Belin. All right; were you in the police station Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. When did you come to the police station?
Mr.Turner. I came in from church, approximately, shortly after 12, and my mother-in-law or somebody told me they had seen the incident happen, or had then heard the incident, or told me about the incident, so I called the office and they said come on to work, so I probably got to work about 1 o'clock or so.
Mr.Belin. Then you stayed down there on Sunday?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; until in the night.
Mr.Belin. Anyone call in on Sunday about anything of importance with regard to the assassination?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir. I mean, I don't know whether it was in regard to the assassination. They called in about there was supposed to be a man at Irving that sighted in a rifle out there.
Mr.Belin. Do you know who it was that called in?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; it was Mr. Ray Johns, channel 8 news.
Mr.Belin. What did he say?
Mr.Turner. He stated he had received an anonymous call stating Oswald had the rifle sighted in on Thursday, November 21, at a gunshop at 111 or 212 Irving Boulevard.
Mr.Belin. What did you do then?
Mr.Turner. Well, I checked the crisscross and phone book and found there was an Irving Sports Shop at 221 East Irving Boulevard.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Turner. Found a man that owned it, Woody Greener, and had a man, Dial Ryder, that worked for him.
Mr.Belin. Did you talk with either or both of them?
Mr.Turner. Yes; I did. I don't remember that particular time, but I have talked with both of them.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember if it was on that day or a subsequent day?
Mr.Turner. I don't remember whether it was that day or the next day, I sure don't.
Mr.Belin. Who did you talk to? Did you talk to Greener?
Mr.Turner. I talked to Mr. Greener first.
Mr.Belin. Did you later talk to Ryder or not?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I have talked to Ryder.
Mr.Belin. What did Greener say?
Mr.Turner. Well, they said that they had all seen pictures of Oswald in the paper, and neither of them could recall doing anything—any work for the man in the shop.
Mr.Belin. What else did he say, if anything?
Mr.Turner. He stated he would check his files and records for names, and would call back if he found anything and he was giving us a reason there, from looking at the photos in the picture, why they hadn't worked on it.
Mr.Belin. What reason did he give you?
Mr.Turner. Well, in the photos it showed that the screws that hold the clamp that holds the scope on the rifle looked like they were on top of the gun, and he thinks, he says that neither of them have ever seen a gun where the scope was mounted with the screws on top.
Mr.Belin. Were they ever talked to again about the thing?
Mr.Turner. Yes.
Mr.Belin. About when was that?
Mr.Turner. About November 28.
Mr.Belin. Who did you talk to?
Mr.Turner. Mr. Greener.
Mr.Belin. What did he say?
Mr.Turner. He stated that they found a work ticket in the rear of the shop. Said this ticket had no date on it, but the best they could figure out, his—this work probably came in around November the 4th or November the 8th of 1963.
Mr.Belin. Well, what else did he say about the work ticket that would call attention to it?
Mr.Turner. He said the ticket had the name Oswald on it, written on it, and the word "drill and tap, $4.50, and bore sighting, $1.50."
Mr.Belin. Did he say whether or not he could remember anything about this, about the man they did the work for?
Mr.Turner. He stated that he could not; no, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever talk to Ryder about it, or not?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Belin. What did Ryder say?
Mr.Turner. He couldn't remember either, anything about the man.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever show them the gun itself?
Mr.Turner. I didn't; no, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you know whether or not the gun was ever shown to these men?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Belin. Did he say who wrote the ticket?
Mr.Turner. They said that it was Ryder's writing, I believe.
Mr.Belin. Let me ask you this. Did you ever pick up the work ticket on—or try to pick up the work ticket?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I tried to. Went by Mr. Greener's house. He said that he had orders from a Mr. Horton of the FBI to hold this ticket and not let it get away from him.
Mr.Belin. When did you contact Greener about this?
Mr.Turner. Sir?
Mr.Belin. When did you contact Greener about this, or don't you remember?
Mr.Turner. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. Do you know what the phrase, "Drill and tap," means, or did you discuss this with Mr. Greener?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I did. He explained it to me.
Mr.Belin. What did he say about it?
Mr.Turner. He said the phrase, "Drill and tap," as used by a gunsmith means to drill a hole, using a tap to put threads in the hole to attach a scope mount. Said that he charged a $1.50 a hole to bore these holes. Said this would mean that the mount on this scope would have three screws in it.
Mr.Belin. Let's see, that would be $4.50. Well, as I understand it, he said that—do you know how many screws the rifle had on the top of it that was found in the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; I don't. I never examined it.
Mr.Belin. But this would indicate three screws on top?
Mr.Turner. According to his charges of a $1.50 a hole.
Mr.Belin. How many on top? I mean, three screws based on his $1.50 a screw?
Mr.Turner. A hole.
Mr.Belin. What about the bore sight? What does that mean?
Mr.Turner. The phrase boresight, his description means to attach to a spud to the barrel of the rifle, and then using a sight-alining tool, they attach this spud to this tool and aline the crosshairs, and that is to sight a rifle in.
Mr.Belin. Did he indicate to you whether or not he knew of any particular rifle that had three screws on the scope mount?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; he named two. He said that most mounting for scopes was four screws, but he said there are two or three, the Springfield 03AM and the British 303. He said those two use three screws in their mount.
Mr.Belin. Now do you have anywhere in your notes as to whether or notyou put down as to how many screws in a mount this rifle found in the School Book Depository Building had?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right; did he say whether or not he sold any ammunition for a 6.5 caliber Italian rifle?
Mr.Turner. He stated he does not sell ammunition for those caliber rifles, 6.5.
Mr.Belin. Did he say whether or not he would try and do any further checking to see if he could determine when the order was picked up?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; he said he would check his sales tickets and see if he could find perhaps by the $6 charge approximately what date it might have been picked up.
Mr.Belin. Did you ever go back and talk with him later to see whether or not he did this?
Mr.Turner. We did, but he wasn't, as far as I can remember, he wasn't able to do any good. He might have had a lot of charges in that amount or nature or something.
Mr.Belin. Any other conversations with him that you recall right now?
Mr.Turner. None that I can recall.
Mr.Belin. What about the other man, Mr. Ryder? Did you ever talk to him?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Belin. What did he say and what did you say?
Mr.Turner. Mr. Ryder said that he wrote the work ticket up with the name Oswald on it. We showed him a picture of Oswald, and he stated that he cannot identify the man as the one who left the rifle with him.
Mr.Belin. Did he say that he was sure that Oswald's picture was not the man, or did he just say he could not give positive identification one way or the other, if you remember?
Mr.Turner. I don't recall the exact words, but I know he didn't identify him.
Mr.Belin. What else did he say?
Mr.Turner. Well, he said that, I believe, that this ticket was written up with a pencil. He said he usually writes with a pen, and he could recall some days in the past month when he had forgotten his pen or something, and he was going to check around and see if he could figure out what day the rifle might have been left there.
Mr.Belin. Did he ever do this at all, or not?
Mr.Turner. I don't recall whether he did or not.
Mr.Belin. You don't have another record of your going back and talking to him, do you?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. You don't know if the FBI did?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. Did he say whether or not he had ever seen any pictures of the rifle?
Mr.Turner. Said he had seen pictures of it, yes, sir; probably in the paper.
Mr.Belin. Did he say whether or not those pictures enabled him to determine that he had or had not worked on it?
Mr.Turner. He said from the pictures he had seen of it, he did not think that he was working on it.
Mr.Belin. Why not?
Mr.Turner. He thinks from the photos that the scope mounting had only two screws in it, and he states that they charged for three on this ticket, and said that he also thinks that he would remember a cheap scope like was attached to this rifle, and would have tried to sell the man another one, and would remember that.
Mr.Belin. Anything else about him?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. All right, now, I believe you said you took a picture of Oswald out to this Ronald Fischer that lived in Mesquite, Tex.?
Mr.Turner. Yes, sir.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember anything else that Fischer might have said about this?
Mr.Turner. No, sir; only that he said the photos of Oswald looked like the man he saw at the window that shot, and he stated he saw this man a minute or less before the motorcade arrived, and could not say definitely this was the man. He said it looked like him.
Mr.Belin. Detective Turner, is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears upon the assassination of the President of the investigation you made that we haven't discussed here?
Mr.Turner. No, sir.
Mr.Belin. You have been sitting here while I put in a call to Washington to determine whether or not the rifle had two or three holes for screws for the mounting of the scope, and just so that your curiosity will be relieved, I will say that I have a report from Washington that there are only two holes for mounting the scope on this particular rifle. Well, if you have nothing further, we want to thank you very much for all the cooperation in coming down here.
One other thing on the record. You have the opportunity to read this and sign it before it goes to Washington, or you can just waive the signature and have the court reporter ship it. Do you have any preference or not?
Mr.Turner. What have they been doing?
Mr.Belin. Well, most of the officers have been saying they would as soon read it and sign it, but you can do it either way.
Mr.Turner. I suppose it is all right to just let it go.
Mr.Belin. You want to waive it?
Mr.Turner. Well.
The testimony of Guy F. Rose was taken at 3 p.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you please hold up your right hand to be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Rose. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, now, please?
Mr.Rose. G. F. Rose, 714 Hall Road, Seagoville.
Mr.Ball. What is your business?
Mr.Rose. I am a police officer, a detective assigned to the homicide and robbery bureau.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Rose. Ten years.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Rose. I was born in Grannis, Ark.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go to school?
Mr.Rose. I finished high school in Grand Prairie High School and attended grade school at Shady Grove Independent School District between Irving and Grand Prairie.
Mr.Ball. And what have you done since then?
Mr.Rose. Well, after I finished high school I went to work for a construction company as a timekeeper and worked until I was 21. Then I went on the police department.
Mr.Ball. You have been on the police department ever since you were 21 years old?
Mr.Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That was what year?
Mr.Rose. It was in 1954.
Mr.Ball. On the 22d of November 1963, were you on duty?
Mr.Rose. I went on duty shortly after the assassination. At the time of the assassination I was not on duty.
Mr.Ball. Did somebody call you and ask you to come on duty?
Mr.Rose. No; I came in just as soon as I heard of the shooting—I came on to work.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to work?
Mr.Rose. I reported to the homicide office. It's room 317 at the city hall.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go then?
Mr.Rose. There were some people in the office from the Book Depository and we talked to a few of them and then in just a few minutes they brought in Lee Oswald and I talked to him for a few minutes.
Mr.Ball. What did you say to him or did he say to you?
Mr.Rose. Well, the first thing I asked him was what his name was and he told me it was Hidell.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you it was Hidell?
Mr.Rose. Yes; he did.
Mr.Ball. He didn't tell you it was Oswald?
Mr.Rose. No; he didn't, not right then—he did later. In a minute—I found two cards—I found a card that said "A. Hidell." And I found another card that said "Lee Oswald" on it, and I asked him which of the two was his correct name. He wouldn't tell me at the time, he just said, "You find out." And then in just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he told me to get two men and go to Irving and search his house.
Mr.Ball. Now, when he first came in there—you said that he said his name was "Hidell"?
Mr.Rose. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was that before you saw the two cards?
Mr.Rose. Yes; it was.
Mr.Ball. Before you saw the cards?
Mr.Rose. Yes; it was.
Mr.Ball. Did he give you his first name?
Mr.Rose. He just said "Hidell"; I remember he just gave me the last name of "Hidell".
Mr.Ball. And then you found two or three cards on him?
Mr.Rose. Yes; we did.
Mr.Ball. Did you search him?
Mr.Rose. He had already been searched and someone had his billfold. I don't know whether it was the patrolman who brought him in that had it or not.
Mr.Ball. And the contents of the billfold supposedly were before you?
Mr.Rose. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were you sitting down?
Mr.Rose. No; I was standing in the interrogation room.
Mr.Ball. Where was he—was he standing too?
Mr.Rose. No; he was sitting in the chair.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed?
Mr.Rose. Yes; he was.
Mr.Ball. Were the handcuffs behind or in front of him?
Mr.Rose. I believe they were behind him—I don't remember for sure.
Mr.Ball. Who else was present at that time?
Mr.Rose. Detective Stovall, he was my partner, and I believe both uniformed men were present—two of the uniformed men were present.
Mr.Ball. The ones who brought him in?
Mr.Rose. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you know their names?
Mr.Rose. I don't remember—I did see McDonald and I did talk to him, but I don't remember whether he was the one that was standing right there at the time or not.
Mr.Ball. After you saw the cards, you asked him which one was his true name?
Mr.Rose. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Rose. He said, "You find out."
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him what his address was?
Mr.Rose. Yes; but from there, he wouldn't tell me—he just said, "You just find out."
Mr.Ball. Now, did anybody ever tell you that his address was 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Rose. Later they did—right then they didn't; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. You didn't know it at that time?
Mr.Rose. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. How soon after that did you go out to Irving—to the Irving Street address?
Mr.Rose. In just a few minutes Captain Fritz came in and he instructed me to get two men and go to Irving to the Ruth Paine home and so I went immediately.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you "the Ruth Paine home," or did he tell you to go to a certain address in Irving?
Mr.Rose. I believe he gave me the address.
Mr.Ball. What was the address?
Mr.Rose. 2515 West Fifth in Irving.
Mr.Ball. How many men went out there?
Mr.Rose. There was me, and Detective Adamcik and Detective Stovall, and on the way, we radioed and asked for a county unit to meet us, and we were met by Detectives Harry Weatherford, E. W. Walthers, and J. L. Oxford, detectives for the county CID—we waited about 40 minutes and they came and met us.
Mr.Ball. Did you have a search warrant?
Mr.Rose. No; we didn't.
Mr.Ball. How did you get in the house?
Mr.Rose. We walked up to the house, me and Stovall and one of the county officers, and I could hear the TV was playing, and I could see the door was standing open—the front door was—and I could see two people sitting inside the living room on the couch, and just as soon as we walked up on the porch, Ruth Paine came to the door. She apparently recognized us—she said, "I've been expecting you all," and we identified ourselves, and she said, "Well, I've been expecting you to come out. Come right on in."
Mr.Ball. Did she say why she had been expecting you?
Mr.Rose. She said, "Just as soon as I heard where the shooting happened, I knew there would be someone out."
Mr.Ball. You took part in the search, didn't you?
Mr.Rose. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. What part did you take?
Mr.Rose. Well, I was the senior detective that was there, and so I was sort of the spokesman for the group, I suppose, and Stovall went into the bedroom of Marina Oswald—Marina Oswald's bedroom, and I don't remember where Adamcik went first, but I talked with Ruth Paine a few minutes and she told me that Marina was there and that she was Lee Oswald's wife and that she was a citizen of Russia, and so I called Captain Fritz on the phone and told him what I had found out there and asked him if there was any special instructions, and he said, "Well, ask her about her husband, ask her if her husband has a rifle."
I turned and asked Marina, but she didn't seem to understand. She said she couldn't understand, so Ruth Paine spoke in Russian to her and Ruth Paine also interpreted for me, and she said that Marina said—first she said Marina said "No," and then in a minute Marina said, "Yes, he does have."
So, then I talked to Captain Fritz for a moment and hung up the phone and I asked Marina if she would show me where his rifle was and Ruth Paine interpreted and Marina pointed to the garage and she took me to the garage and she pointed to a blanket that was rolled up and laying on the floor near the wall of the garage and Ruth Paine said, "Says that that's where his rifle is."
Well, at the time I couldn't tell whether there was one in there or not. It appeared to be—it was in sort of an outline of a rifle.
Mr.Ball. You mean the blanket had the outline of a rifle?
Mr.Rose. Yes; it did.
Mr.Ball. Was it tied at one end?
Mr.Rose. Yes, sir; it was sort of rolled up, but it was flattened out from laying down and tied near the middle. I would say, with a cord and so I went on and picked the blanket up, but it was empty—it didn't have the rifle in it.
Mr.Ball. You brought that in?
Mr.Rose. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. What else did you see?
Mr.Rose. I didn't make very much of a search of the garage at that time. I came back into the house and talked with Marina some more and talked with Ruth Paine some and was busy trying to make arrangements to get someone to come down and take care of Ruth Paine's children and Marina's children so I could bring them to the city hall and I did assist Stovall and Adamcik in this search, briefly—I didn't do too much.
Mr.Ball. Could I see the report there, please?
Mr.Rose. Yes—I wrote that report shortly after the 24th—I believe it was around the 24th, but I don't remember for sure what date I wrote it. I wrote it from some notes that I had taken.
Mr.Ball. Now, after you were there for a little while, did Michael Paine come in?
Mr.Rose. Yes; we had only been there a few minutes and we were in plain cars, so I don't know whether he knew we were there. He didn't appear to know we were there, and he walked up the sidewalk and just walked in the door without knocking, and I was standing just around the corner talking to Ruth Paine and she was standing in his view and he didn't see any of the officers—we were all out of sight at that time, and he walked in and he said, "I came to help you. Just as soon as I heard where it happened, I knew you would need some help."
Then he apparently saw us and then he spoke to us.
Mr.Ball. Did Marina Oswald tell you—point to the blanket and say something?
Mr.Rose. She pointed to the blanket and said something in Russian and Ruth Paine was standing right there beside her and she interpreted for me—she said, "That's where her husband's rifle is."
Mr.Ball. About that time, while you were there, did a Mrs. Linnie Randle come over to you?
Mr.Rose. She might have come up to the yard and I didn't talk with her—I saw her out in the yard—I didn't talk to her.
Mr.Ball. You didn't talk to her at all?
Mr.Rose. At that time I didn't—I did later.
Mr.Ball. You brought Ruth Paine and Marina down to the police department, did you?
Mr.Rose. Yes; we took Ruth Paine and Marina and Marina's two children in our car and also the blanket—I carried it.
Mr.Ball. And the rest of that day you spent in inquiring for and looking around for Wesley Frazier?
Mr.Rose. Well, we came on back to the city hall and we took Ruth Paine and Michael Paine and Marina Oswald to the homicide office, but it was so crowded that we transferred them to the forgery bureau office next door, and then someone came over and I believe it was the Detective Senkel, to take affidavits from them and I immediately started trying to locate Wesley Frazier.
We were told that he would be at Parkland Hospital, but we checked through Parkland and there was no Fraziers there and I started a check of the clinics and the doctors' offices in Irving, and I located through one of the nurses, I believe, or talked to someone on the phone there that Mr. Frazier was in the hospital there at the Irving Clinic, so I called Detective McCabe in Irving and told him that we wanted to talk with Wesley Frazier and that we understood that Wesley was the one that had brought Lee Oswald to work that morning.
Mr.Ball. You took a statement from Frazier that day?
Mr.Rose. Yes; we got Frazier and brought him in and took a written affidavit off of him.
Mr.Ball. And you also talked to Linnie Randle that night?
Mr.Rose. Yes; I brought her in, too.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Lee Oswald any more during that day except the time you mentioned?
Mr.Rose. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Were you present at any time that anyone questioned him?
Mr.Rose. Not that day. I was the next day, on Saturday—I was present when Captain Fritz talked to him.
Mr.Ball. On Saturday morning you went out to Irving again?
Mr.Rose. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. At this time you had a search warrant?
Mr.Rose. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. What did you search on this day?
Mr.Rose. We made a search of the garage, mainly, on this day since quite a bit of Lee Oswald's property was in the garage.
Mr.Ball. What did you find there?
Mr.Rose. Well, I found two sea bags, three suitcases, and two cardboard boxes and all of them contained numerous items of property of Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Did you find some pictures?
Mr.Rose. Yes; I found two negatives first that showed Lee Oswald holding a rifle in his hand, wearing a pistol at his hip, and right with those negatives I found a developed picture—I don't know what you call it, but anyway a picture that had been developed from the negative of him holding this rifle, and Detective McCabe was standing there and he found the other picture—of Oswald holding the rifle.
Mr.Ball. What color were the sea bags?
Mr.Rose. I believe they were kind of an off white—I would call them—more of a greyish-white.
Mr.Ball. What about the suitcases?
Mr.Rose. I don't remember the color of those suitcases. I know one of them was real worn.
Mr.Ball. But you brought that property back here into town, did you?
Mr.Rose. Yes; we did.
Mr.Ball. Now, you say you sat in on the interrogation of Oswald later that day?
Mr.Rose. On Saturday evening—that Saturday evening.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Rose. I don't remember—it was late—it seemed like it was around 9 or 10 o'clock, I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Who was present?
Mr.Rose. Well, Captain Fritz, Detective Sims, and myself—I don't remember—there was an FBI agent and a Secret Service agent there, but I don't remember their names.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what was said?
Mr.Rose. Do I remember what was said?
Mr.Ball. That this took place in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Rose. In Captain Fritz' office—yes. Well, the occasion was—I got back to the office and I took this small picture of Oswald holding the rifle, and left the rest of them with the Captain and I took one up to the I.D. bureau and had them to make me an enlargement of it, and they made an almost 8" by 10" enlargement of this picture and I brought it back to the captain and Oswald was brought in and the captain showed him this picture, and Oswald apparently got pretty upset when he saw the picture and at first he said, "Well, that's just a fake, because somebody has superimposed my face on that picture." Then, the captain said, "Well, is that your face on the picture?"
And he said, "I won't even admit that. That is not even my face." I remember that part of it distinctly.
I remember him volunteering some information about when he was in Russia.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Rose. Well, he talked about how life was better for the colored people in Russia than it was in the United States. I don't remember—he just rambled on—he liked to talk about that, but he wouldn't talk about anything to do with the assassination or the killing of Tippit.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of assassinating the President?
Mr.Rose. No, sir; I don't believe I did.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever hear anybody accuse him of killing Tippit?
Mr.Rose. No; I don't believe so. Some mention might have been made of the assassination but I don't believe it was as an accusation to him. That was the only interrogation I sat in on.
Mr.Ball. That was the only one you sat in on?
Mr.Rose. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember anything else that was said in that interrogation?
Mr.Rose. No, sir; that's about all I can remember. There was more said, but I don't remember what it was.
Mr.Ball. Did you take part in any of the search of the premises?
Mr.Rose. Let's, let's see—that was Saturday, and then Sunday, immediately after Oswald was shot, I reported for duty and I was supposed to be off and I reported on as soon as as he was shot and Captain Fritz told me to get a search warrant and go out to Jack Ruby's apartment and search it and I did.
Mr.Ball. I believe those are all the questions I have to ask you, Mr. Rose, and this will be written up and submitted to you for your signature, if you want to read it and sign it, or if you want to, you can waive your signature—just as you wish. What do you prefer?
Mr.Rose. Well, I don't know—will it be later?
Mr.Ball. A couple of weeks.
Mr.Rose. Well, if she will just call me, I will drop by anytime.
Mr.Ball. Okay, that will be fine. We will do this. Thanks very much.
Mr.Rose. Let's see, there was something else I was going to tell you now, I wanted to mention—we did run Wesley Frazier on the polygraph, did you know that?
Mr.Ball. I know you did—we know about that.
Mr.Rose. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Thanks.
The testimony of W. E. Perry was taken at 9:20 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Perry. Yes.
Mr.Ball. State your name, please.
Mr.Perry. W. E. Perry.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation? What is your address?
Mr.Perry. 6821 Overlook.
Mr.Ball. And your occupation?
Mr.Perry. Police officer.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me something about yourself? Where you were born and where you were raised?
Mr.Perry. I was born and raised right here in Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Perry. Went to school here in Dallas and Forest High School.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do after you got out of school?
Mr.Perry. Well, I worked for the phone company a little while and went in business with my dad in the furniture business, and then I went on to the police department. Been there about 11 years.
Mr.Ball. Now, with the police department, what was your occupation in November of 1963?
Mr.Perry. I was with the vice and special services bureau.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty in the afternoon?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In the vicebureau——
Mr.Perry. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Squadroom?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you take part in a showup?
Mr.Perry. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Perry. Approximately 4:35or——
Mr.Ball. First one?
Mr.Perry. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you take part in another showup?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time?
Mr.Perry. 6:30.
Mr.Ball. Take part in any other showups?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever taken part in a showup before?
Mr.Perry. Not that I recall.
Mr.Ball. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Ball. Back on the record. Had you ever heard of officers taking part in showups before in your department?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. But, you hadn't yourself?
Mr.Perry. I hadn't myself; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen a showup in which officers took part?
Mr.Perry. Physically, down there?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Perry. Not that I recall, that has been an awful long time ago. I don't recall.
Mr.Ball. Now, do you use your—use showups in your business, in the vice squad?
Mr.Perry. I don't think we do; huh-uh, no. Never heard of it done.
Mr.Ball. You never have? Who talked to you and asked you to take part in the first showup?
Mr.Perry. Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Did he talk to you?
Mr.Perry. No; he talked to somebody else in our bureau.
Mr.Ball. And they relayed the order to you?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do?
Mr.Perry. We went on up to—Clark and myself went on up to the third floor of the homicide office.
Mr.Ball. Was Oswald there?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Who else was there?
Mr.Perry. Several different people. Captain Fritz, a lot of homicide detectives and Texas Rangers and several other people that I don't know who they were. I gather law enforcement agencies, but it was, the officewas——
Mr.Ball. Anything said there?
Mr.Perry. I don't recall.
Mr.Ball. Any conversation with Oswald?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And before you went down to the showup, how did you dress?
Mr.Perry. I pulled my coat off and took my tie off and unbuttoned my shirt and put another sports coat on.
Mr.Ball. What color?
Mr.Perry. I believe it was a brown sports coat.
Mr.Ball. Then you went down to the showup?
Mr.Perry. Went down to the showup.
Mr.Ball. Were you handcuffed?
Mr.Perry. Yes.
Mr.Ball. To whom?
Mr.Perry. To Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Which arm, or hand?
Mr.Perry. My left hand to his right hand.
Mr.Ball. What place did you have in the showup?
Mr.Perry. I was No. 1.
Mr.Ball. And where was Oswald?
Mr.Perry. Oswald was No. 2, next to me.
Mr.Ball. Who was handcuffed to Oswald?
Mr.Perry. Clark was handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. That was No. 3. Who was 4?
Mr.Perry. Ables.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever know him before?
Mr.Perry. I had seen—had seen him, but I didn't know him personally.
Mr.Ball. He is a clerk in the jail?
Mr.Perry. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Policeman ask you any questions? Detective ask you any questions?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir; my name and what have you.
Mr.Ball. Well, what do you mean, "what have you."?
Mr.Perry. Well, occupation.
Mr.Ball. What else?
Mr.Perry. I believe he asked me what kind of car I drove if I'm not mistaken.
Mr.Ball. And what answer did you give him?
Mr.Perry. I gave him all fictitious answers. I don't recall what they were, but theyweren't——
Mr.Ball. You didn't give him your true name?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or true address?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Or the car you drove?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Ask you what your occupation was?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir; he did, but I don't recall what I said to him.
Mr.Ball. Did you tell him you were a police officer?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Gavesome——
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You took part in the second showup, didn't you?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. At 6:30, and who called you for that?
Mr.Perry. We were down in the office and they simply called us and said they were ready for us again. Wanted us to come back and then we went back up thereand——
Mr.Ball. How were you dressed that time?
Mr.Perry. Same way.
Mr.Ball. Same coat?
Mr.Perry. Same coat.
Mr.Ball. No tie?
Mr.Perry. No tie.
Mr.Ball. Give the same answers and same name, occupation and address?
Mr.Perry. Best I recall I think they were all fictitious too.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear any conversation which took place in the audience?
Mr.Perry. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who the detective was that asked the questions?
Mr.Perry. Sims, I believe. It was Sims.
Mr.Ball. Do you think that was Sims? Do you know Sims?
Mr.Perry. I do. It was Sims; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Sims was behind with you. He was not in the audience?
Mr.Perry. That's right.
Mr.Ball. According to the record, did he ask questions from the stage?
Mr.Perry. From the stage where we were; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where you were. Who asked them the first time? Do you know?
Mr.Perry. I don't recall. I don't know.
Mr.Ball. But you remember Sims did the second one?
Mr.Perry. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. All right. Will you state your height, please?
Mr.Perry. About 5'11".
Mr.Ball. What is your weight?
Mr.Perry. About 150.
Mr.Ball. And your hair?
Mr.Perry. Brown.
Mr.Ball. And your eyes?
Mr.Perry. Blue.
Mr.Ball. Complexion?
Mr.Perry. I guess medium, fair, I guess.
Mr.Ball. Fair. That's all.