The testimony of Harry D. Holmes was taken at 2 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Holmes. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. I understand that you have previously been examined by one of the attorneys on the staff, and I assume they advised you of the basis on which we are conducting the examination and the rights that you have in the situation, so I won't bother to go through that again.
Mr.Holmes. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mr.Holmes. Harry D. Holmes.
Mr.Liebeler. You are the chief postal inspector?
Mr.Holmes. No; it is just postal inspector.
Mr.Liebeler. Stationed with the post office here in Dallas; is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. I just have a few questions that I wanted to ask you that have come up since we took your testimony the last time. One of the things I would like to know about, if you have any information on it, is how long it ordinarily takes a parcel post shipment to come to Dallas from Chicago.
Mr.Holmes. It would depend on the time of day it was mailed, and whether it was mailed just prior to the next most expeditious dispatch. But I would say certainly not over, well, it would be in Dallas the next day. But whether it would get to a box—that's right, it would be available at his box—should be the next day.
Mr.Liebeler. Of course, this question relates specifically to the shipment of the rifle.
Mr.Holmes. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Shipped from Chicago and addressed to Mr. Hidell at Post Office Box 2915 here in Dallas, and you say that it generally would have been available at the post office here in Dallas the day following its delivery to the post office in Chicago?
Mr.Holmes. I have no idea when it was mailed there, but it should have been available here the next day. If it were to be delivered to a street address, it would be the second day, because it would not make morning delivery. But to a post office box, he should have. Of course, he had told me he didn't come to that box too regularly, so there is no assurance of when it was picked up.
Mr.Liebeler. But as far as the possibility is concerned, it would have been available here at the post office box the following morning from Chicago?
Mr.Holmes. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. After it has been received here in Dallas, as I understand the procedure, a notice would be put in the post office box indicating that a package was being held there in the post office; is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. There is a regular card, when the package is too large to go in the box, or if it is c.o.d., or insured, or registered. However, this was an ordinary parcel. It was not insured or c.o.d. There would be a card for him put in the box, and he would have to pick it up at a window.
Mr.Liebeler. What about as far as Los Angeles is concerned, from Los Angeles to Dallas? How long would it take a parcel post to reach Dallas from Los Angeles?
Mr.Holmes. At least 2 days.
Mr.Liebeler. Could it possibly be longer than 2 days?
Mr.Holmes. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How much longer, do you think? How about on the average, do you have any idea?
Mr.Holmes. No; it depends on the time of mailing. It is 2 days' train run from Los Angeles here, and if it happens to catch an early dispatch, it would be in here the morning of the third day.
Mr.Liebeler. From Chicago it is only a 1-day train run, is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. So it would be here, if it had an early dispatch, on the morning of the following day?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. My understanding is that an application for a post office box comes in three separate parts. Do youhave——
(Mr. Holmes hands paper to attorney.)
Mr.Liebeler. You have, in fact, handed me a sample of such an application.
Mr.Holmes. I thought you might want one, so I brought one along.
Mr.Liebeler. That was very good, and we will mark this as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A on your deposition of July 23, 1964. I have put my initials on the corner after I have marked it. Would you initial it, too, for the purpose of identification?
(Mr. Holmes initials.)
Mr.Liebeler. What is the ordinary procedure that is followed when a box is rented and this form is used?
Mr.Holmes. The form is completed, usually by the applicant, and it must be signed by the applicant, even if an employee does complete it. This portion of the—I don't know how you want to designate it.
Mr.Liebeler. We will number them portions 1, 2, and 3.
Mr.Holmes. All right, part 1 of this application is simply the instructions on a combination box, and instructions to the patron is torn off, and he keeps it or they throw it away. Portions 2 and 3 are completed, too. 2 gives the applicant's name, the name of his corporation or firm he represents, if applicable, the kind of business, the business address, the home address, and the place for his signature and the date. On the third portion is a box for him to indicate whether he wants all mail in the box, or just whether he wants some other disposition and so on, and a place for name of person entitled to receive mail through the box other than the applicant himself, and he fills in that. These two portions then remain together in the file of the post office where he made application.
Mr.Liebeler. That is portions 2 and 3?
Mr.Holmes. Until he relinquishes the box. They pull this out and endorse it so the box has been closed, and the date and they tear off 3 and throw it away. It has no more purpose. That is what happened on box 2915.
Mr.Liebeler. They have thrown part 3 away?
Mr.Holmes. Yes; as it so happens, even though they closed the box in New Orleans, they still had part 3 and it showed that the mail for Marina Oswald and A. J. Hidell was good in the box. They hadn't complied with regulations. They still had it there.
Mr.Liebeler. It was a lucky thing.
Mr.Holmes. We wish they had here.
Mr.Liebeler. Now is this regulation that says section 3 should be torn off and thrown away, is that a general regulation of the Post Office Department?
Mr.Holmes. It is in the Post Office Manual Instructions to employees; yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. So there is no way, as I understand it, to tell from the records maintained, as far as you know anyway, who was authorized to receive mail at Post Office Box 2915 that Oswald had while he was here in Dallas before he went to New Orleans in April of 1963; is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Other than Oswald himself and his name on the application.
Mr.Liebeler. Right.
Mr.Holmes. Now he did tell me in personal interrogation that no one was permitted to get mail in that box but him.
Mr.Liebeler. He said that same thing about the box in New Orleans, too, didn't he?
Mr.Holmes. He did at first, andthen——
Mr.Liebeler. Then you showed him portion three of the application and then he changed his story?
Mr.Holmes. I said how about Marina Oswald, and he said, well, she was my wife. What is wrong with that? And I said how about A. J. Hidell, and he said I don't know anything about that. And I said look here. And he said, well, I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Now supposing that Oswald had not in fact authorized A. J. Hidell to receive mail here in the Dallas box and that a package came addressed to the name of Hidell, which, in fact, one did at Post Office Box 2915, what procedure would be followed when that package came in?
Mr.Holmes. They would put the notice in the box.
Mr.Liebeler. Regardless of whose name was associated with the box?
Mr.Holmes. That is the general practice. The theory being, I have a box. I have a brother come to visit me. My brother would have my same name—well, a cousin. You can get mail in there. They are not too strict. You don't have to file that third portion to get service for other people there. I imagine they might have questioned him a little bit when they handed it out to him, but I don't know. It depends on how good he is at answering questions, and everything would be all right.
Mr.Liebeler. So that the package would have come in addressed to Hidell at Post Office Box 2915, and a notice would have been put in the post office box without regard to who was authorized to receive mail from it?
Mr.Holmes. Actually, the window where you get the box is all the way around the corner and a different place from the box, and the people that box the mail, and in theory—I am surmising now, because nobody knows. I have questioned everybody, and they have no recollection. The man would take this card out. There is nothing on this card. There is no name on it, not even a box number on it. He comes around and says, "I got this out of my box." And he says, "What box?" "Box number so and so." They look in a bin where they have this by box numbers, and whatever the name on it, whatever they gave him, he just hands him the package, and that is all there is to it.
Mr.Liebeler. Ordinarily, they won't even request any identification because they would assume if he got the notice out of the box, he was entitled to it?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. It is very possible that that in fact is what happened in this case?
Mr.Holmes. That is in theory. I would assume that is what happened.
Mr.Liebeler. On the other hand, it is also possible that Oswald had actually authorized Hidell to receive mail through the box?
Mr.Holmes. Could have been. And on the other hand, he had this identification card of Hidell's in his billfold, which he could have produced and showed the window clerk. Either way, he got it.
Mr.Liebeler. Right. I believe I am correct in my understanding that when Mr. Belin took your testimony previously, that you did mark as exhibits the various forms that Oswald had filled out here in the Post Office Department in Dallas; isn't that right?
Mr.Holmes. You mean the box rent application?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Holmes. I have long since given them to the FBI. However, I endorsed them at the time I gave them to the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. I can't remember.
Mr.Holmes. I will show you a photocopy maybe.
Mr.Liebeler. The basic thrust of my question is that you have given the originals of the documents to the FBI?
Mr.Holmes. I have the receipts, except for Ruby's box, which nobody ever asked me for, and I still have them. That is Ruby's box at the Terminal Annex.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, that is not a part of the record so far. We should mark it as a part of the record now. Are you required to keep this in your records?
Mr.Holmes. If you will give me a receipt for it. I have a photocopy.
Mr.Liebeler. It is quite as legible, the photocopy, so why don't I just mark the photocopy and you keep the original?
Mr.Holmes. Okay.
Mr.Liebeler. I have initialed the photocopy, and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification, and we will mark that as Holmes Exhibit No. 2-A on your deposition of July 23, 1064, a photocopy of a post office box application in the name of Jack Ruby, dated November 1, 1963. Post Office Box No. 5475, and as I understand it, this was an application that was made at the Terminal Annex here in Dallas, is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there any way in which we can tell from just looking at it, or that is something you know from having gotten the copy from the Terminal Annex?
Mr.Holmes. The box number categories are set out for each station that comes within that bracket. The applications don't tell you what post office it isfrom. It might be from San Antonio. But I don't know why. What are your initials and name?
Mr.Liebeler. W. J. L., Wesley J. Liebeler.
Mr.Holmes. How do you spell your last name?
Mr.Liebeler(spelling). L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r.
Mr.Holmes. Thank you [handing another card to Mr. Liebeler]. I will explain it to you, and you might want to ask me for the record what it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; you have handed me a postcard, Post Office Department Form 3546, Notice to Change Forwarding Order.
Mr.Holmes. That is different from our 3575 in that this is simply a forwarding order. This is to change a forwarding order. To interpret it, Lee Oswald, on October 11, 1963, in New Orleans, gave his box 2915 in Dallas as the last address. He had given a forwarding order on this box to this box 30061 in New Orleans on May 14, 1963. Now then, he is again forwarding from this box. Not again, but it is a second forwarding.
Mr.Liebeler. This would indicate that instructions had been given to forward from box 2915 here in Dallas?
Mr.Holmes. Direct without goingthrough——
Mr.Liebeler. This would indicate that all together, he had first issued instructions that mail should be forwarded from box 2915 in Dallas to box 30061 in New Orleans, and this would now indicate that mail was to be forwarded to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, Tex., and that is dated October 11, 1963. Now, there are several postmarks appearing on this form. There is one Dallas postmark of October 16 on both sides, and there is also a postmark in New Orleans, which is difficult to read, but it is sometime in October. Now you suggested perhaps October 11, 1963. What do you interpret happened with regard to this notice, Post Office Department Form 3546? Can you tell from looking at it where, in the ordinary course of events, he would have first prepared this form?
Mr.Holmes. That would have been prepared in New Orleans and dropped in the mailbox. He would have prepared that at a station, because they have filled the front in and crossed it out. In fact, they hand these out at the stations. He has gone into the station probably where he had this box. In the normal course of the patron's activities he would have gone into that station where that box is and said, "I want my mail forwarded." All right, fill this out.
It looks like they might have filled it out for him. It doesn't look too much like his writing. But they would have filled this out to show that mail from this box should not be sent to New Orleans, but sent to Irving, so the post office would send that up to Dallas where this box is at the main office, and they would have that on file here.
Mr.Liebeler. Box 2915, you mean? That address here?
Mr.Holmes. Here is a photocopy of box 2915 application, and it will show it was closed on May 14, 1963, which is this red figure up here. So when they got that in here in Dallas, they would have put this red mark on there for some reason to show when the box was closed, and then they would keep this in their file as instructions until they got some other instructions.
Mr.Liebeler. Isn't it possible that this form which, well, do you have a photostatic of this form we have been talking about?
Mr.Holmes. I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me mark this original one for the record then, if I may.
Mr.Holmes. That is all right.
Mr.Liebeler. I have initialed this Post Office Department Form 3546, which has been marked "Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A on deposition of July 23, 1964," and I would like to have you initial it also for the purpose of identification.
(Mr. Holmes initials.)
Mr.Liebeler. I want to ask you some more questions about Holmes Exhibit No. 3, which is postmarked, as we have indicated, October 16, in Dallas, and also bears a postmark in New Orleans which I think is October 11.
Mr.Holmes. My best educated guess is the 11th.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me come bluntly to the point. My problem is this. Oswald wasn't in New Orleans on October 11. He was in Dallas.
Mr.Holmes. Now, he could have filled that out here. It could have been mailed to New Orleans for forwarding the mail up from there. He could havemailed it from some other post office, and they would have mailed it. But they would have had to enclose it in an envelope.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; because it is addressed to the postmaster in Dallas, Tex., and just as sure as anything it has a New Orleans postmark on it.
Mr.Holmes. Yes; prior to the Dallas one, if we read the New Orleans one correctly.
Mr.Liebeler. The New Orleans is hard to read, but it certainly is an October postmark.
Mr.Holmes. That is the reason I wanted you to read the memo, because the hours are down there and are different from that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now the New Orleans Post Office inspector, or an inspector in the office of New Orleans, has advised you that Oswald filled out a form 3575?
Mr.Holmes. That is the regular forwarding order.
Mr.Liebeler. And he did that on September 24; is that correct? Or September 25?
Mr.Holmes. September 24.
Mr.Liebeler. September 24, 1963, and his box down there was closed on September 26, presumably pursuant to the order that was mailed to them under postmark of September 24, 1963. Now has the Post Office Department in New Orleans given you any advice at all, as far as you can tell, concerning this Post Office Department Form 3546, which we have marked Holmes Exhibit No. 3-A?
Mr.Holmes. No; other than their postmark on there. There is no endorsement there. But you see, Lafayette Station is in New Orleans, and it looks like that was completed by the person at Lafayette Station.
Mr.Liebeler. Inasmuch as that is exactly what it says.
Mr.Holmes. If that were completed in some other post office, they wouldn't know that box was in Lafayette Station.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me suggest this. There is not the slightest evidence that Oswald ever filled that form out or ever saw it?
Mr.Holmes. No; that is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Because it is perfectly obvious this isn't his handwriting.
Mr.Holmes. That is my opinion, too.
Mr.Liebeler. So apparently somebody in the New Orleans Post Office filled this form out?
Mr.Holmes. They could have done it over a telephone instruction, long-distance telephone call.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, they could have done that from the records they had in their possession, because he already had filled out a Post Office Department 3575 instructing to forward mail from Post Office Box 30061 to 2515 West Fifth Street in Irving, which they had received, of course, on September 24?
Mr.Holmes. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, in any event, we will add this to the pile.
Mr.Holmes. It is an original card.
Mr.Liebeler. Let the record show Mr. Holmes has delivered to us the original card which has been marked as Holmes Exhibit No. 1-A.
I don't think I have any other questions. I have cleared up the basic problems we had. Of course, you managed to raise a few more, and I appreciate that. Thank you very much. As I understand it at this point, Mr. Holmes, you have given to us or to the FBI, all of the papers that you found so far in your files relating to Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct?
Mr.Holmes. Yes; you have every original document or item that I have come in contact with in this business.
Mr.Liebeler. Between us and the FBI?
Mr.Holmes. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now it may be as yousuggested——
Mr.Holmes. Except Ruby's.
Mr.Liebeler. And you have given us a copy?
Mr.Holmes. I have given you a good clear photocopy.
Mr.Liebeler. Right. If you do come across any other papers in yourfiles——
Mr.Holmes. I will get in touch with Martha Jo [Stroud, assistant U.S. attorney in Dallas, Tex.].
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; let us know. Thank you a lot again.
The testimony of Buell Wesley Frazier was taken at 10 a.m., on July 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Frazier. I believe you have already appeared before the Commission itself and given testimony of your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his activities; is that right?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you please stand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Frazier. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to ask you two or three questions that were not asked you when you appeared before the Commission. Your name is Buell Wesley Frazier?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. You are the same Buell Wesley Frazier, as I understand, who has previously testified before the Commission about Lee Harvey Oswald and about how Oswald rode back and forth with you from Irving to Dallas; isn't that right?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. I think he came with you to work on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. You testified in Washington that on that particular morning you saw Oswald carrying a large brown package from the car into the Texas School Book Depository Building and that also you saw that package in the car; isn't that right?
Mr.Frazier. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. And you described that package and you told us about what you saw in detail at that time?
Mr.Frazier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald with the package similar to the one you saw on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see Oswald carry a package from Irving into the Texas School Book Depository Building that looked anything like the package he had on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see him with a package that looked like that package any other time or at any other place?
Mr.Frazier. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. That's all the questions I have. Thank you very much for coming in.
Mr.Frazier. All right. Thank you.
The testimony of Joe Marshall Smith was taken at 1 p.m., on July 23, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Smith. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of procedure, you are entitled to have an attorney present, and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of your hearing. I know you didn't get that, because I just called you this morning, but I assume that since you are here, you are prepared to go ahead without an attorney, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record?
Mr.Smith. Joe Marshall Smith.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Smith. 12015 Androck. That is in Mesquite.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr.Smith. May 1, 1932.
Mr.Liebeler. Where?
Mr.Smith. Kleburg, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you outline briefly for us your educational background?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir. I went to grade school in Seagoville up to the second grade. Then I went to Houston, Tex., and finished elementary school there, and then to junior high school, and through high school in Houston, Tex. Then I went into the U.S. Navy.
Mr.Liebeler. You are presently a uniformed officer of the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Smith. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Smith. Oh, nearly 8 years, in September it will be.
Mr.Liebeler. During that time, you have been working basically as a uniformed officer, patrolman?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been working in any specific type of assignment, or just what has been the nature of your work?
Mr.Smith. Well, I was in radio patrol 3½ years. Then I went to traffic division point control, and that is what I am doing presently.
Mr.Liebeler. I understand that you were assigned to work in the vicinity of Elm and Houston on November 22, 1963, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us when you first got that assignment and what you were told.
Mr.Smith. At approximately 8:45 or 9 o'clock that morning, November 22, we made detail, and Capt. P. W. Lawrence gave us the instructions that we were to, of course, hold the traffic up when the motorcade came through, and to assist in the crowd control, and be specifically on the lookout for anyone throwing anything from the crowd. That is about all I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. How many officers were with you as you were instructed at the detail at 8:45? That means, there was a formation of something in the office?
Mr.Smith. There was quite a few there. I don't know how many were there, but nearly the whole traffic department was there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did they all receive instructions from Captain Lawrence at the same time, or were they different specific instructions broken down?
Mr.Smith. There were some broken down instructions that some of the men had to stay over to get different detail aimed to them, but that was my instructions.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you receive those instructions in writing, or delivered orally?
Mr.Smith. Delivered orally.
Mr.Liebeler. In other words, the captain or someone working with the captain would have a list and he assigned certain men to certain places and gave them general instructions as to what they were to do; is that correct?
Mr.Smith. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Men from the department were assigned all along the motorcade route from the airport into downtown Dallas; is that correct?
Mr.Smith. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. And other men were given instructions similar to or the same as the ones that you were given?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Which was to keep traffic out of the way when the motorcade was coming, and keep an open and clear route, and to engage in general crowd control activities?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Were there any instructions given to you men about scanning buildings?
Mr.Smith. Sir, I don't remember. It is more or less the general thing to do. I mean, just police the area. But I don't remember any specific instructions on that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now after you received your instructions at 8:45, what did you do?
Mr.Smith. I proceeded to the intersection of Elm and Houston, and it was about 9:50 or 10 o'clock when I was on the corner there. At approximately 11:50 or 12 o'clock, there was a white male that had an epileptic seizure on the esplanade on Houston Street between Main and Elm. Well, I went down to see if any assistance was needed, and I stayed there until the white male was loaded into an ambulance and sent to a hospital. Then I proceeded back to my assignment.
Mr.Liebeler. Were there any other officers there in connection with this fellow that had the epileptic fit?
Mr.Smith. Yes; there was one more. He was a radio patrolman.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember his name?
Mr.Smith. I don't remember his name. I swear, I was trying to think of it before this even.
Mr.Liebeler. He was a radio patrolman? You mean he was driving a motorcycle or had a car?
Mr.Smith. No; he was assigned, I think, if I am not mistaken, I think he was assigned to Main and Houston, and he was down there with the man when I arrived at the scene.
Mr.Liebeler. So you called an ambulance, or an ambulance was called and this man was taken away, and you went back to the corner of Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How many officers were assigned at Elm and Houston?
Mr.Smith. Three of us.
Mr.Liebeler. Who were the other two men?
Mr.Smith. W. E. Barnett, and E. L. Smith. I think that is his initials. I know it is another Smith boy anyway.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you station yourself when you got there?
Mr.Smith. Just after we got the epileptic seizure en route to the hospital, I hadn't gotten back to the corner but just a few minutes until the motorcade was coming, so I stationed myself on Elm Street in the middle from the southeast curb of Elm and Houston and held traffic up.
Mr.Liebeler. Which direction would this traffic have been coming from that you held up?
Mr.Smith. It was heading west on Elm.
Mr.Liebeler. Coming down Elm toward the triple underpass? Coming into the intersection of Elm and Houston?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So you were the individual patrolman who went back and held up the traffic to Elm Street; is that right?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So you would have been on the eastern side of Houston Street on Elm Street holding up the traffic that was coming down Elm Street?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. From that position, could you have observed the windows onthe side of the Texas School Book Depository Building room which the shots were fired?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; I could see some of the windows. I couldn't see them all, but I was pretty busy getting traffic held up, and I must admit I had my back to the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you were facing traffic that was coming down Elm Street toward the triple underpass toward the intersection of Houston Street?
Mr.Smith. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. So you had no opportunity to scan the windows of the Texas School Book Depository Building at all?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you did not scan the building?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now did you notice anything extraordinary in the crowd as far as a crowd control is concerned? Did you have any problems in that connection, or was it just a matter of holding up the traffic?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; we didn't have any trouble with the crowd at that particular intersection. They stayed back pretty well as they were told, and I got all the cars stopped, so I thought we had it made.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a picture, an aerial view of the area that is marked Commission Exhibit No. 354. Could you locate the Texas School Book Depository Building in there?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; it should be right there.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that is it on the left-hand side of the picture, and of course, the intersection of Elm and Houston is right off opposite the corner there, right at the corner of the Texas School Book Depository Building, and you were standing to the east?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; right here.
Mr.Liebeler. Of Houston?
Mr.Smith. Right along in this area.
Mr.Liebeler. There is, in fact, a picture of a car stopped there right at the intersection of Elm and Houston, and you had been standing back in the vicinity of the automobile?
Mr.Smith. Just about the middle of Elm Street here.
Mr.Liebeler. I will put the No. 4 in a circle on the spot of approximately where you were standing at the time the motorcade went by. Is that approximately correct?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You were facing east up Elm Street away from the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. So that your back was in fact turned to the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now there are two or three other buildings here in the immediate vicinity as you are facing east on Elm Street. There is a building on your left, which is directly across Houston Street from the School Book Depository Building. Do you know what building that is?
Mr.Smith. I know, but I can't remember now.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you observe any activity in any of the windows of that building?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have occasion to look to the windows of that building at any time when the motorcade came by? That would be the building to your left.
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir. I don't recall, but I know that I must have, because I was trying to keep all the crowd in sight that was around. I know that I must have glanced at it, but I don't recall seeing anything unusual.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the building across Elm Street on your right? That is the county building?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There are a series of windows in that building facing thetriple underpass. Could you observe those windows from the point where you were standing?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; not where I could tell whether they were open or closed.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you were standing too far up Elm Street to have a good vantage point from which to observe these windows?
Mr.Smith. I mean on Houston Street.
Mr.Liebeler. That is what I mean.
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You wouldn't have been able to see the windows of the building that is down on the intersection of Main and Houston Streets at all from where you were standing?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. If you could have seen, it would have been with great difficulty, so you weren't in position to observe those windows, and you didn't in fact observe them, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. While you were standing here and the motorcade went by, tell us what happened at that point.
Mr.Smith. I heard the shots.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you turn to watch the motorcade? Did you turn to watch the President as the motorcade went by?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; I glanced around and was watching the crowd to make sure they stayed back out of the way of the motorcade, and also to make sure none of the cars started up or anything. Then I heard the shots, and I immediately proceeded from this point.
Mr.Liebeler. Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354?
Mr.Smith. I started up toward this Book Depository after I heard the shots, and I didn't know where the shots came from. I had no idea, because it was such a ricochet.
Mr.Liebeler. An echo effect?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; and this woman came up to me and she was just in hysterics. She told me, "They are shooting the President from the bushes." So I immediately proceeded up here.
Mr.Liebeler. You proceeded up to an area immediately behind the concrete structure here that is described by Elm Street and the street that runs immediately in front of the Texas School Book Depository, is that right?
Mr.Smith. I was checking all the bushes and I checked all the cars in the parking lot.
Mr.Liebeler. There is a parking lot in behind this grassy area back from Elm Street toward the railroad tracks, and you went down to the parking lot and looked around?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; I checked all the cars. I looked into all the cars and checked around the bushes. Of course, I wasn't alone. There was some deputy sheriff with me, and I believe one Secret Service man when I got there.
I got to make this statement, too. I felt awfully silly, but after the shot and this woman, I pulled my pistol from my holster, and I thought, this is silly, I don't know who I am looking for, and I put it back. Just as I did, he showed me that he was a Secret Service agent.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you accost this man?
Mr.Smith. Well, he saw me coming with my pistol and right away he showed me who he was.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember who it was?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I don't—because then we started checking the cars. In fact, I was checking the bushes, and I went through the cars, and I started over here in this particular section.
Mr.Liebeler. Down toward the railroad tracks where they go over the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any basis for believing where the shots came from, or where to look for somebody, other than what the lady told you?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; except that maybe it was a power of suggestion. But it sounded to me like they may have came from this vicinity here.
Mr.Liebeler. Down around the—let's put a No. 5 there at the corner here behind this concrete structure where the bushes were down toward the railroad tracks from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the little street that runs down in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building.
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you say that you had the idea that the shots may have come from up in that area?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; that is just what, well, like I say, the sound of it. That was the most helpless and hopeless feeling I ever had.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, you mentioned before there was an echo from the shots in the area.
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Probably caused by the fact that there are some large buildings around the area where the shots were fired from?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now did you at any time have occasion to look up to the railroad tracks that went across the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; I looked up there after I was going up to check there.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't have any occasion to look up there before you heard the shots?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. After you heard the shots, you proceeded down along the bushes here between the street that runs in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and Elm Street to approximately point 5, and then when you went down looking to the cars, you then had occasion to look up at the railroad tracks running over the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see anybody up there?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; there was two other officers there, I know.
Mr.Liebeler. Were there any other people up there, that you can remember?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; none that I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. But you remember that there were two police officers up there?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you searched these cars in this parking lot area down there by the railroad tracks on from point 5 down toward the main railroad tracks that cross over the triple underpass. Did you find anything that you could associate in any way with the assassination?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you remain down in that area?
Mr.Smith. Oh, I would say approximately 15 to 20 minutes.
Mr.Liebeler. During that time, you continued searching through automobiles and searching the general area in the parking lot back there; is that right?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you do after you had searched this area?
Mr.Smith. Well, it was, I don't remember whether this was a deputy sheriff—I don't know his name—he was in civilian clothes—he said they came from the building up here. And by that time, of course, all the police around there sealed the building off, and I went to the front door here on the, well, you might say, the Houston Street side. I and Barnett, and we sealed the front door and didn't let anyone in or out until he was passed by the chief.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you this. Before you went up to the School Book Depository Building, am I correct in understanding that you did thoroughly search the area of the parking lot, you and the other officers?
Mr.Smith. Well, now, I didn't go into all the cars. I looked into them, and I was well satisfied in my mind that he wasn't around there.
Some of the cars were locked, and I just looked into all of them around there, and I went back to the building.
Mr.Liebeler. Who gave you instructions to go to the front door of that building, do you remember?
Mr.Smith. I believe it was Sergeant Howard.
Mr.Liebeler. Sergeant Howard?
Mr.Smith. Sergeant Howard, or Sergeant Harkness.
Mr.Liebeler. So to the best of your recollection, it was one of those two men?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir. Wait—let's strike that. No; it wasn't. It was Chief Lumpkin give us the direct order, I and Barnett, not to let anyone in or out of that building; that's right—Deputy Chief Lumpkin.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you see him in order to receive that order?
Mr.Smith. I started back up here to the building, and we were just about at the front door when he contacted me and Barnett then.
Mr.Liebeler. He instructed you and Barnett to stand at the front door and not let anyone in or out?
Mr.Smith. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know approximately what time that was?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; it must have been about 1. It was after 1 o'clock. I don't remember; no.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you and Barnett remain there at the front door?
Mr.Smith. Until about 2:30; I think I got off there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you at any time go into the building?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether other men were assigned to watch the back door?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I don't know. I am quite certain there was.
Mr.Liebeler. But you had no personal knowledge of it at the time?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you were assigned to the front door, and that is where you stayed?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, did you let anybody in or out of the building?
Mr.Smith. Well, now, we let police officers in, of course, and firemen.
Mr.Liebeler. The firemen came into the building?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; there was something on that that they had to get some—what was that, I don't recall what it was that they come in there for now.
Mr.Liebeler. There were some firemen from the Dallas Fire Department that went into the building?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did they come back to the front door?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. How about Secret Service; were there any Secret Service agents around?
Mr.Smith. I don't know, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Agent Sorrels, the agent in charge of the Dallas office of the Secret Service?
Mr.Smith. I saw him a few minutes, but I don't know him personally.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember seeing him around that day?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you at any time see Lee Harvey Oswald come in or out of the building, or in the area at all?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there anything that happened while you were standing there with Barnett at the front door that you think would be of significance that the Commission should know about that I haven't asked you about?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. You just maintained the general guard duty there and only let the police officers and fire department in, and you don't have any specific recollection as to Secret Service agents. How about FBI agents; were there some of those?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; there were FBI agents.
Mr.Liebeler. You let them go in?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any specific FBI agents that were there?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I don't remember any of the names.
Mr.Liebeler. Who finally relieved you from that particular duty post?
Mr.Smith. Let me think here a minute now. Chief Lumpkin, I know—I don't recall who the officer was.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think it is of any particular importance if you can't recall. What did you do after you were finally relieved?
Mr.Smith. I don't know if this is of significance either, but they had set up, the Salvation Army had some coffee and I had a cup of coffee and proceeded on back to the Mercantile Bank. I had an extra job there that evening.
Mr.Liebeler. You were relieved from your duty post?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And went on about your own personal affairs?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you conduct any additional investigation or have anything to do with the investigation of the assassination after that?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know Officer Tippit?
Mr.Smith. Remotely. I didn't know him real well. Just knew him when I saw him.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first hear about Oswald's capture?
Mr.Smith. It was after I left my post.
Mr.Liebeler. After you left your post?
Mr.Smith. Yes; in fact, just before I got off from working at the bank. Just before 6 o'clock. A squad of detectives, I don't recall their names, but they told me they got a man over at the Texas Theatre that they thought might have been the one.
Mr.Liebeler. After you heard the shots and went from Point 4 on Commission Exhibit No. 354 down to point 5 searching the bushy area here, did you have any occasion to look up in the windows of any of the buildings surrounding the intersection of Elm and Houston Streets?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I was—pardon the expression—beating the bushes and checking the cars.
Mr.Liebeler. So you never saw anything in any of those windows at all?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you familiar with the traffic patterns on these three streets here, Commerce, Main, and Elm Streets, as they go down under the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The motorcade came down Main Street from the east to the intersection of Main Street and Houston, did it not?
Mr.Smith. Yes; headed west on Main.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; and it turned right on Houston Street and then turned left on Elm and was headed toward the triple underpass when the assassination occurred. What would have prevented the motorcade from going directly down Main Street under the triple underpass, remembering now that the motorcade wanted to go onto Stemmons Freeway?
Mr.Smith. I don't know, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, could you have gone straight down Main Street and gotten onto Stemmons Freeway down here?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Where the three streets go under the triple overpass, there is a concrete barrier between Elm Street and Main Street; is there not?
Mr.Smith. What do you mean?
Mr.Liebeler. Where the streets actually go under the railroad tracks here.
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now where is the entrance as we go off, as we see the three streets going off the picture here, Commission Exhibit No. 354? Where is the entrance to the Stemmons Freeway?
Mr.Smith. It is back off.
Mr.Liebeler. It is not shown on the picture?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; it is back off here.
Mr.Liebeler. To go down Stemmons Expressway or Freeway towards the trade mart, you would have to turn how? Would you turn to your right?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now could you have actually gone off to the right and crossedover Elm Street if you had been on Main Street and gone under the triple underpass?
Mr.Smith. They merge.
Mr.Liebeler. They all merge together down there?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. So as far as you know, there was no reason why the motorcade couldn't have gone straight down Elm Street and gone on to the Stemmons Freeway headed for the trade mart?
Mr.Smith. As far as I know, there is no reason.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it possible that as you come down Main Street, if you stayed directly on Main Street going under the triple underpass, that you might have difficulty in making the turn with a big car from Main Street to go onto Stemmons Freeway?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions about the situation, unless you can think of something else that you might have seen or observed that day that I haven't asked you about that you think the Commission should know.
Mr.Smith. Sir, I just can't think of anything else.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to thank you very much for coming over. I appreciate your cooperation.
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; thank you.