The testimony of James Putnam was taken at 11 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ely. Would you stand up and be sworn, please?
Mr.Putnam. All right.
Mr.Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Putnam. I do.
Mr.Ely. Would you state your name, please?
Mr.Putnam. James Putnam.
Mr.Ely. And where do you live?
Mr.Putnam. 2015 Joan Drive.
Mr.Ely. What is your occupation?
Mr.Putnam. Police officer—sergeant of police.
Mr.Ely. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Putnam. Ten years and four months.
Mr.Ely. Could you give us something of your background before you startedto work for the police department—where you went to school and what you did before you became a policeman?
Mr.Putnam. Is this pertinent?
Mr.Ely. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Putnam. Is this pertinent to the deposition? Well, if you want it, I will give it to you. I went to school at Charleston, S.C. and I was in the Navy for about 7 years.
Mr.Ely. And did you go directly from the Navy to the police department?
Mr.Putnam. No; from the Navy I went to work for Lone Star Gas Co. here in Dallas. From there I went to work for Prudential Insurance Co. from which I was recalled into the Navy again, and when I was released, I went back to the insurance company, and from there I applied for employment with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Ely. Thank you, sergeant. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you on duty with the police department?
Mr.Putnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ely. Did your duties on that day involve you in any way in the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Putnam. Yes.
Mr.Ely. What was the nature of your involvement with that investigation?
Mr.Putnam. Just to assist in covering of the Book Depository Building and aiding in searching the building.
Mr.Ely. Did your duties involve you in any way in the investigation of the shooting of Officer Tippit?
Mr.Putnam. No.
Mr.Ely. Could you state the nature of your specialty with the police department? What sort of work do you specialize in?
Mr.Putnam. My assignment then and now is sergeant of police, supervising patrolmen in the radio patrol division.
(Instrument marked by the reporter as "Putnam Exhibit No. 1," for identification.)
Mr.Ely. Sergeant, I will show you first a map which is designated Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1, and I will also show you two documents designated Sawyer Exhibits A and B, which purport to be transcripts of radio logs from the 22d of November. Now, although you would have no personal knowledge of where Officer Tippit was assigned that day, assume for purposes of my questioning that his original assignment on the 22d of November was within the area marked 78 on Putnam Exhibit 1. Can you tell me within which district the corner of Lancaster and Eighth Street is?
Mr.Putnam. District 109.
Mr.Ely. And is it correct that here on the exhibit marked Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A there is a call recorded at 12:54 p.m., from 78 to 531 reporting he was at Lancaster and 8th?
Mr.Putnam. Yes; there is.
Mr.Ely. Now, assuming that Officer Tippit was originally assigned to the district numbered 78, taking into account the report that at 12:54 he was within the district marked 109, and also assuming that he later was shot within the district marked 91, would you look at these radio logs and tell us if you find on either one of them any calls which would account for the fact that he had thus come in toward the center of town from the district he was originally assigned to? Feel free to draw upon your general knowledge of the custom in the Dallas Police Department for leaving, or remaining in, one's assigned district.
Mr.Putnam. One transmission here on channel 1, that would be the normal channel that Tippit would be listening to, at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer's Deposition Exhibit B, is to the attention of all squads in the downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston, and with Officer Tippit being assigned to district 78 and allowed the discretion that is allowed in the Dallas Police Department—he would start in the direction of the downtown area. A feasible route would bring him to district 109 and that vicinity.
Mr.Ely. Is there any special reason why that would be a feasible route?
Mr.Putnam. This Houston Street, if you will notice right in this corner—Houston Street adjoins district 109. It is one of the routes you can use to cross the river into the downtown area. This would be the normal procedure as far as Officer Tippit was concerned, to come in toward the downtown area, unless disregarded and a later transmission on channel 2, after getting his location, advised him to remain at large in the Oak Cliff area. "At large," would indicate that he would feel free to go nearer in the Oak Cliff area, with the idea in mind that he would be looking for any suspect or any suspicious circumstance that might be related to the shooting.
Mr.Ely. Are districts 78, 109, and 91 all located within the Oak Cliff area?
Mr.Putnam. They are located in the Oak Cliff area.
Mr.Ely. All right, thank you, Sergeant Putnam, I believe that's all.
The testimony of Lt. Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:25 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ely. Would you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Pierce. I do.
Mr.Ely. Lieutenant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission which is looking into all the facts surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have been informed that you might have information which would help us in this inquiry.
Mr.Ely. Would you state your full name, please?
Mr.Pierce. Rio Sam Pierce.
Mr.Ely. And where do you live?
Mr.Pierce. 3227 South Edgefield.
Mr.Ely. Could you tell us what your occupation is?
Mr.Pierce. Officer—police officer.
Mr.Ely. And what rank do you hold?
Mr.Pierce. Lieutenant.
Mr.Ely. You are a lieutenant with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Pierce. That's right.
Mr.Ely. Could you tell us something about what you did before you started to work for the police department?
Mr.Pierce. Well, I was raised on a farm out in West Texas and engaged in farming practically all of my life up until I went in the Marine Corps. After I got out of the Marine Corps in 1946, in April I believe it was, I came to the Dallas Police Department in August 1946.
Mr.Ely. Could you tell us, please, what your job is? What do you specialize in with the police department?
Mr.Pierce. I am assigned as a lieutenant in the patrol division out of the central station.
Mr.Ely. Now, were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Pierce. I was not.
Mr.Ely. Were you in Dallas on that date?
Mr.Pierce. Part of the day. I went to Ennis, Tex., early that morning and returned to Dallas about—oh, it was approximately 1 or 1:30 p.m.
Mr.Ely. Did you have anything to do with the investigation of the killing of either President Kennedy or Officer Tippit?
Mr.Pierce. No, sir.
Mr.Ely. I will show you three exhibits, one is a map designated Putnam Exhibit No. 1. The other two are designated Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and are copies of the Dallas Police Department's radio logs for November 22, 1963.
If you will for the moment assume that Officer Tippit was assigned to patrol the district marked No. 78 on Putnam Exhibit No. 1. Can you explain why, subsequent to the shooting of the President, Officer Tippit would be in the district marked 109—specifically at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth—at 12:54 p.m., and then would later have proceeded into district 91, which is the area in which he was shot and killed?
Will you look at these radio logs to see if you can find any calls which would lead him to take this route? Use any other information at your disposal to explain to us why he would have gone out of district 78 and over into Nos. 109 and 91?
Mr.Pierce. Well, I see one transmission here that I think would have alerted any officer knowing the fact that the President was in town, at 12:43—I believe this occurred on channel 1—this was taken from channel 1 recordings at 12:43. It says, "Attention all squads of downtown area, code 3 to Elm and Houston with caution."
Mr.Ely. Explain what code 3 means.
Mr.Pierce. That's an emergency. In other words, that is, we have code 1, which is normal driving; we have code 2, and a code 3. In other words, code 3 is your top—proceed with haste and caution. The transmission followed that at 12:44, "Attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting at Elm and Houston is reported to be an unknown white male," and gives the description here—would also be an indication to the squads, and reading this—and I assume that this is the way it came out—a man would have to draw his own judgment, because it hasn't told you yet that the President has been shot, but I would think that any normal police officer would assume that there had been something pertaining to that, probably, and it would be normal procedure for him working in the district he is working in to pull into a closer area to the downtown area, and this district 109, which is, I believe you stated, that as being at Eighth and Lancaster—it doesn't show here on your map, but you have no viaduct—that's about the only place you can cross that river, unless you want to wade.
Mr.Ely. Could you mark on the exhibit with your red pencil where that viaduct would be?
Mr.Pierce. Well, you see, Cadiz Street over here in the downtown area—it also crosses this river and comes on out—may or may not be nearly correct—it isn't too far from wrong—I don't think so—there is two viaducts.
Mr.Ely. The red mark you have just drawn is what?
Mr.Pierce. The red mark is one viaduct that crosses that river and the area where he was at that time, I will just have to use this—Lancaster Street comes in something like that—it isn't marked on here.
Mr.Ely. All right.
Mr.Pierce. But, he wouldn't be too far from that Cadiz Street viaduct. Anyway, they come over that Cadiz Street viaduct, and also you have quite a few apartment houses along there on Lancaster and Marsalis. In other words, there is a large number of people that live over in there. That seemed to me like he was probably using pretty good judgment in getting in that particular area because he would have a chance there to assist from the downtown area there.
Mr.Ely. This transmission to which you referred, the one appearing at 12:43 p.m. on Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, purports to be directed only to all squads in the downtown area?
Mr.Pierce. That's right.
Mr.Ely. But you think it would be normal even for those squads not located in the downtown area to react?
Mr.Pierce. I would have to call on my experience in the Dallas Police Department. Under normal police procedure we request that the squads stay in their district, but under any emergency situation we do not require that they stay in their district.
Mr.Ely. So, you would characterize this as a normal course of behavior?
Mr.Pierce. It looks like a normal procedure to me.
Mr.Ely. All right. Do you think of anything else that you would want to mention in connection with this, or do you think that just about covers it?
Mr.Pierce. Well, like I say, I was on my day off and I would just have to assume what was happening, but I don't know anything in connection with Tippit, but in this location, if that is what you are interested in, that would not be unusual.
Mr.Ely. Well, that's what we are interested in. Thank you very much.
Mr.Pierce. All right, thank you.
The testimony of Calvin Bud Owens was taken at 11:50 a.m., on April 9, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. John Hart Ely, member of the staff of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ely. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Owens. I do.
Mr.Ely. Sergeant, I am here as a representative of the President's Commission, which is investigating all of the circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy, and we have reason to believe that you might be able to give us some information which would help us.
Mr.Owens. All right.
Mr.Ely. Could you state your full name, please?
Mr.Owens. Calvin Bud Owens.
Mr.Ely. And where do you live, sir?
Mr.Owens. 1830 Melbourne [spelling] M-e-l-b-o-u-r-n-e.
Mr.Ely. In Dallas?
Mr.Owens. That's right.
Mr.Ely. What is your occupation?
Mr.Owens. I am a police officer.
Mr.Ely. And what rank do you hold in the police department?
Mr.Owens. Sergeant.
Mr.Ely. How long have you been with the police department?
Mr.Owens. Twenty-three and a half years.
Mr.Ely. Could you give us a general idea of what you did before you went with the department?
Mr.Owens. How far back?
Mr.Ely. Starting with your schooling, let's say.
Mr.Owens. Most of my schooling was in Dallas. I was born in Madill [spelling] M-a-d-i-l-l, Okla. I started school in Wilburton, Okla., and from there to Shawnee, Okla., and from there to Ennis, Tex., and then to Dallas, and then I went through Winnetka. I'll say I graduated from City Park Grammar School and Forest Avenue High School. After I got out of school in the depression, I went to work at the Baker Hotel as a bellhop. I left there and went up to Oklahoma for approximately a year, came back and went to work at Sears, Roebuck and worked there 2½ years, and then went to work for the public works department in construction, as a chainman in a survey crew until, let's see, that was in 1938. I worked their until the spring of 1940. I worked 2 months in the fire department, left, and went back to engineers. In October 1940, I went to work in the police department. December 1, 1942, I went in the Navy and got out January 6, 1946, and I returned to the police department.
Mr.Ely. And you have been there ever since?
Mr.Owens. Yes.
Mr.Ely. Were you on duty on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Owens. I was.
Mr.Ely. And what was the nature of your assignment on that date?
Mr.Owens. Acting lieutenant, Oak Cliff substation.
Mr.Ely. Because you were acting lieutenant in the Oak Cliff substation, would that mean that Officer Tippit would be under your supervision?
Mr.Owens. That's true.
Mr.Ely. When and how did you first hear that there had been an incident involving the President of the United States?
Mr.Owens. I had eaten lunch and I was on the way back to the substation—channel 1 was not working properly—some mike—or some radio transmitter had left the mike open and I couldn't hear, and I switched over to channel 2 and heard what sounded like Chief Curry say, "It looks like the President has been hit," so, not knowing what he had been hit with, I go in the substation and hear on the radio where they are sending squads downtown to Elm and Houston, and I called the dispatcher's office and wanted to know if they wanted me downtown. They were very busy and never did answer me, so from that, I assumed that there was a big incident involved and maybe the President had been shot, so I leave 4020 West Illinois where the substation is located and proceed to Elm and Houston, code 3.
Mr.Ely. And what does code 3 mean?
Mr.Owens. It means emergency with red lights and siren on.
Mr.Ely. Thank you.
Mr.Owens. I arrived at Elm and Houston, which is the location of the Texas School Book Depository. Before I arrived, the squad was dispatched to pick up a man—an officer on Stemmons, who had a colored man, who had information regarding the shooting. Since I was close, I stopped and picked up a colored man, a lady and two children, and take them to Elm and Houston, and notified Inspector Sawyer of what I had. He informed me to send them to the sheriff's office where they had set up this interrogation room. I turned them over to a patrolman there with the instructions to take them over to the sheriff's office. I stayed with Inspector Sawyer until I was informed that there was a shooting in Oak Cliff involving a police officer.
Mr.Ely. Do you recall the name of this colored man?
Mr.Owens. No. I told Inspector Sawyer that I was assigned to Oak Cliff and an officer was involved in the shooting, and I was taking off, so I proceeded—I got in my car, and Captain Westbrook and Bill Alexander, an assistant district attorney, also was in the car with me and we started out to—I think the call came out at 400 East 10th or 400 East Jefferson. There was confusion there where the situation was. It was corrected and we went to the scene of the shooting.
Now, right there—here's where I'm not quite sure—I don't know whether I was given the gun and all—but I believe I was given the gun and this was Tippit's gun and shells.
Mr.Ely. Do you recall who gave them to you?
Mr.Owens. No; some officer, but I don't know who it was.
Mr.Ely. And how long did you have the gun and shells in your custody?
Mr.Owens. Well, I had them at the hospital and we put them in a paper envelope, a large paper envelope with some more of his possessions.
Mr.Ely. Did you make any identifying marks on them?
Mr.Owens. No; they were his city issued—his own gun.
Mr.Ely. And do you recall whom you gave them to eventually?
Mr.Owens. No; I believe it was Barton—I'm not sure. I couldn't say positively who I gave them to, to go put them in the property room. In fact, I don't even know whether I gave them to anybody. I might have taken them out to the Oak Cliff substation and put them in our property room—I don't know.
Mr.Ely. Now, you were back at the stage where somebody had given you the gun, and let's go on from there.
Mr.Owens. Yes—we were informed by a man whom I do not know, that the suspect that shot Officer Tippit had run across a vacant lot toward Jefferson, and thrown down his jacket, I think he said, white, I'm not sure. Not finding anybody that had seen him come out of that area, we blocked off that square block.
Mr.Ely. Can you tell us specifically what block you blocked off?
Mr.Owens. I believe it was the 400 block of East Jefferson—the 400 or 500 block. It was this block bound by Jefferson, 10th, Patton, and Denver—I believe that was the area. Then we started searching the buildings and houses—there are some old two-story houses there used as businesses.
Mr.Ely. What was the nature of your search of these buildings? Did you just look through the halls?
Mr.Owens. Well, I didn't go in. I was standing on the outside and the other officers were going in. I was covering off. Then, we heard over the radio that some officer, who by the number, I took to be a three-wheeler motorcycle officer had seen someone answering the description, go into the basement of the library, which is on the corner of Marsalis and Jefferson, which was about two blocks away. Quite a few of us left that area we were at and proceeded to the library, covered it off, and they brought out the one that they thought was the suspect, but he fit the general description, but he was not the one we were looking for. He was an employee of the library that heard the President had gotten shot and he had been to lunch and he was running over there to tell them that the President got shot.
Mr.Ely. In other words, someone saw this employee run into the library, and that's the reason you came in. He had just run into the library?
Mr.Owens. That's the man that had run across Jefferson and run into the basement of the library, so I went back to the scene of the shooting of Officer Tippit and another call had come and some of my men yelled to me that they had a suspect in the Texas Theatre, and everyone left there, but nobody was left to help guard the scene except the crime lab man, so I remained at the scene, and everybody else went to the Texas Theatre.
Mr.Ely. Do you remember who the crime lab man was who was there?
Mr.Owens. At the time I thought it was Captain Doughty [spelling] D-o-u-g-h-t-y. They finished up taking the pictures and I left the scene and went to Methodist Hospital where Officer Tippit had been taken, and I was taken back to the room where he was taken, and in just a brief examination of the body I saw where one bullet had entered his right chest about the pocket and went through a package of cigarettes. Another one hit him about the center of the chest and hit a button, and another one, I believe, was in his right temple, I'm not sure which temple it was, but those three wounds, I did see. I don't know whether he was shot any more or not. I remained at the hospital for quite a time, and then I went back to the Oak Cliff substation where I was assigned.
Mr.Ely. And because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation, you at no time during these 2 days or so went into the main police headquarters; is that correct?
Mr.Owens. What, now?
Mr.Ely. You didn't go to the main police headquarters because you were assigned to the Oak Cliff substation?
Mr.Owens. No; that's right.
Mr.Ely. Now, I show you a map which is labeled Putnam Deposition Exhibit No. 1. Could you tell us what sort of a map this is?
Mr.Owens. It is what we call a district map of the various districts of the city of Dallas.
Mr.Ely. The various districts to which patrolmen are assigned, is that correct?
Mr.Owens. It is what it was set up for. Now, there isn't a squad for each numbered district. Some squads have two or more numbers. I mean, the districts cover that.
Mr.Ely. And could you tell us to which district or districts on that map Officer Tippit was assigned on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Owens. He was assigned to district 78. Now, I don't know whether we were short any squads that day or not, and if we were, he would be assigned to cover another district also. His call number would still be 78.
Mr.Ely. Would his call number be 78 even if he were outside the district?
Mr.Owens. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ely. I show you now one of the radio logs which is designated "Sawyer Deposition Exhibit A." Am I correct in saying that at 12:54 p.m., according to this log, Officer Tippit reported by radio that he was then at the corner of Lancaster and Eighth?
Mr.Owens. That's right.
Mr.Ely. Now, in which district on this map would the corner of Lancaster and Eighth fall?
Mr.Owens. In district 109.
Mr.Ely. That would be district 109. In which district on the map was Officer Tippit shot?
Mr.Owens. In district 91.
Mr.Ely. Now, we would like to have your opinion as to why Officer Tippit, who was assigned to district 78, would have been in district 109 at 12:54 p.m. and then later in district 91? In giving us your answer, please feel free to refer to both of these radio logs, which are Sawyer Deposition Exhibits A and B, and also draw upon your experience with the Dallas Police Department and the common procedure for reacting to an emergency.
Mr.Owens. It says here on channel 1, this is Sawyer Deposition Exhibit B, "Attention all squads in the downtown area, code 3, to Elm and Houston with caution," and knowing that the President's parade was going to be down in that area and also at 12:44 this: "attention all squads, the suspect in the shooting, Elm and Houston, is reported to be an unknown white male, approximately 30, slender build, height, 5 feet 6 inches, weight, 165 pounds, reported to be armed with what is thought to be a .30 caliber rifle, no further description or information at this time;" and then it recites at 12:45 signal 19 involving the President—that was at12:45——
Mr.Ely. And signal 19 means what?
Mr.Owens. A shooting—anything of that magnitude in the shooting of the President is one of the greatest magnitudes, and any officer would proceed as near that location as possible to try to apprehend whoever had done it.
Mr.Ely. Well, would somebody in an outlying district head for Elm and Houston itself, or would he just come in closer?
Mr.Owens. He would move in that direction, and when they had ordered all downtown squads to proceed to Elm and Houston, knowing that he was going to have to answer calls in the downtown area while they are there, and if you know that in all probability you may get called in, and—instead of the district you are in, you are going to head down there so it won't take you near as long, and also you can still be in the area if the suspect comes your way, you will have a better chance of apprehending him.
Mr.Ely. So, you think Tippit might have been filling in for the people whom he knew had been pulled in to Elm and Houston?
Mr.Owens. That's what I think—not only filling in, but also looking for the suspect, because he heard about the shooting and the general description of the suspect, and not knowing which way he went, but he could have gone any way, then he is going to head downtown as soon as possible so if he sees someone answering that description, he can apprehend him.
Mr.Ely. You would say it would be normal procedure for an officer in district 78, which is located out in the outlying districts, to head downtown in any emergency?
Mr.Owens. That's true.
Mr.Ely. Could you perhaps give us an explanation of why he headed over toward 109 and 91? That doesn't seem to be the most direct route.
Mr.Owens. According to this map—it doesn't show all the things on there—it looks like you would have to zigzag quite a bit, but you wouldn't. You could go down Corinth Street and go across the viaduct, but that would get him down on Industrial, which would still be a lot of traffic to go through. He could go down Clarendon to Marsalis and go North Ewing and then get over to Lancaster, and a would give him a straight shoot to the Houston Street viaduct, which would take him right to Elm and Houston.
Mr.Ely. So that you think a path of going from 78 to 109 to 91 would be a more or less logical route for getting into the center of town?
Mr.Owens. Yes; I do.
Mr.Ely. On the 22d of November, did you, yourself, have an area which you were patroling?
Mr.Owens. I was supervising all of the Oak Cliff area, and since I was acting lieutenant, and I made the assignments for that day, I was at the station at 4020 West Illinois at the time.
Mr.Ely. In which numbered area is that located?
Mr.Owens. That would be on district 97, and no one sent me, but when I heard all of this—so many squads getting called to report there, then I went.
Mr.Ely. You headed toward the downtown area yourself?
Mr.Owens. Yes; I went to Elm and Houston myself.
Mr.Ely. Even though you didn't have a specific order to go in there either?
Mr.Owens. That's right—that's true.
Mr.Ely. Officer McDonald, who testified before the Commission, told us that he went to the corner of Elm and Houston, do you know which numbered area on this map he was assigned to?
Mr.Owens. He was working district 95, which covers district 95 and 96.
Mr.Ely. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record between Counsel Ely and the witness Owens.)
Mr.Owens. I don't know what district Officer J. L. Angel was working, but it was my understanding that he also went to Elm and Houston.
Mr.Ely. Well, he was working somewhere in the Oak Cliff area, was he?
Mr.Owens. Yes; he was working in the Oak Cliff area under the same sergeant that Officer Tippit was working under, so he would be in the same general area which covers these districts in here.
Mr.Ely. That would be districts 82 and 85?
Mr.Owens. No—81, 82, 85, 86, 87, or 76, 77, 78, or 79—that's that sergeant's district.
Mr.Ely. All right, thank you very much, sergeant.
Mr.Owens. I don't know of anything else—as I say, I couldn't remember where they handed me the gun. I knew it was at the scene because my wife said she saw it on television and I had his gun, and when I asked her about it she said it wasn't the suspect's gun she knew because she has been a policeman's wife long enough to know I wouldn't be handling a gun like that if it was the suspect's.
Mr.Ely. All right, Sergeant, thank you very much.
Mr.Owens. All right, thank you.
The testimony of William Arthur Smith was taken at 4:25 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Smith, stand up and raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear that the evidence you are about to give before the Commission shall be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Sit down.
Mr.Ball. State your name, please.
Mr.Smith. William Arthur Smith.
Mr.Ball. And where do you live?
Mr.Smith. 328½ East Davis.
Mr.Ball. What is your age?
Mr.Smith. Twenty.
Mr.Ball. You live with whom? Whom do you live with?
Mr.Smith. My mother.
Mr.Ball. At this address?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school.
Mr.Smith. I was born in Pine Bluff, Ark., and went to school Wason Chapel.
Mr.Ball. How far through school did you go?
Mr.Smith. Three months into the 12th grade.
Mr.Ball. Three months into the 12th grade?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Smith. Been working ever since, most of the time.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work do you do? Have you done?
Mr.Smith. Corrugated box.
Mr.Ball. Beg your pardon?
Mr.Smith. Corrugated box.
Mr.Ball. That is where you are working now?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; working at a metal shop.
Mr.Ball. Any metal shop?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Have you ever been in trouble with the police?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of trouble did you get in?
Mr.Smith. Auto theft.
Mr.Ball. You're on probation now, aren't you?
Mr.Smith. Two years.
Mr.Ball. Two years? Ever have any other trouble?
Mr.Smith. Tickets.
Mr.Ball. Just tickets? Traffic tickets?
Mr.Smith. Two right now.
Mr.Ball. You ever have any trouble as a juvenile?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, on November 22, 1963, were you working any place?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Didn't have a job?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where did you spend the day that day?
Mr.Smith. 505 East 10th.
Mr.Ball. Why were you there?
Mr.Smith. Visiting a friend.
Mr.Ball. What is his name?
Mr.Smith. Jimmy Burt.
Mr.Ball. When did you go over there that day?
Mr.Smith. In the morning. In the morning.
Mr.Ball. In the morning?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What time did you leave there that day?
Mr.Smith. In the evening.
Mr.Ball. So, you spent the whole day there?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did something happen a little after 1 o'clock there that day that you noticed?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; policeman got shot.
Mr.Ball. Now, at the time the policeman was shot, where were you?
Mr.Smith. In the front yard, at 505 East 10th.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Smith. Jimmy Burt.
Mr.Ball. That was about how far from where the policeman got shot?
Mr.Smith. One block.
Mr.Ball. That would be about a block east, wouldn't it?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Policeman was shot in the 400 block?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were in the 500 block?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What called your attention to this incident?
Mr.Smith. I heard some shots.
Mr.Ball. And what? You looked down that way?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you see?
Mr.Smith. Saw Oswald running and policeman falling.
Mr.Ball. Did you see his face, or just his back?
Mr.Smith. Saw the side of him, the side and back of him when he was running.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him before he ran?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Saw the side of his face?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And he ran in what direction?
Mr.Smith. West.
Mr.Ball. Did you follow him?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down to where the policeman was shot?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you see?
Mr.Smith. Saw the policeman lying on the ground. I mean on the street.
Mr.Ball. And did a crowd gather around there?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Smith. About 45 minutes.
Mr.Ball. Did you give your name to the police?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Why?
Mr.Smith. Because I was on probation. I thought it might hurt my probation record.
Mr.Ball. All right; you did tell someone you had seen it, didn't you?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Who?
Mr.Smith. This boy I ran around with.
Mr.Ball. What's his name?
Mr.Smith. James Markham.
Mr.Ball. Is he the son of Helen Markham?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you talk to her?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; she talks to me.
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Markham talked to you?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And did you tell Mrs. Markham?
Mr.Smith. I told her what I saw and that is the reason I am here, Ia——
Mr.Ball. Did the police come out and see you?
Mr.Smith. The FBI.
Mr.Ball. The FBI did? Did you tell them the same story you told me?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see Oswald on television?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On the night of the shooting?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did it appear to you to be the same man you had seen?
Mr.Smith. He had lighter hair than he did when I saw him.
Mr.Ball. Well, now, wait a minute. You mean the man you saw ontelevision——
Mr.Smith. Had lighter hair.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Smith—than the man you saw running away?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Is that right?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What color hair did the man have that you saw running away?
Mr.Smith. Brown, brownish-black. It was dark.
Mr.Ball. How did the hair appear on television?
Mr.Smith. Looked blond.
Mr.Ball. Were you later shown a picture of Oswald?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. By whom?
Mr.Smith. FBI agent.
Mr.Ball. What was the color of the hair in the picture?
Mr.Smith. Brown.
Mr.Ball. What did you see? What did you tell the FBI agent about the appearance of the man in the picture?
Mr.Smith. I said it looked more like him than it did on television.
Mr.Ball. And did you think when he showed you the picture that it looked anything like the man you had seen running away?
Mr.Smith. What I saw of him; yes.
Mr.Ball. First time you ever saw this man was after you heard these shots?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Is that right? You had never seen him walking?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Ball. You hadn't seen him walking in front of thehouse——
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where you were standing?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of clothes did he have on when he shot the officer?
Mr.Smith. He had on dark pants—just a minute. He had on dark pants and a sport coat of some kind. I can't really remember very well.
Mr.Ball. I will show you acoat——
Mr.Smith. This looks like it.
Mr.Ball. This is Commission's Exhibit 162, a grey, zippered jacket. Have you ever seen this before?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; that looks like what he had on. A jacket.
Mr.Ball. That is the jacket he had on?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, when the deposition is completed it will be written up and you will have a right to look it over and sign it, or if you want to you can waive your signature. They will accept your waiver and send it on to the Commission without it. Do you have any choice on that?
Mr.Smith. I will sign it. It don't make any difference to me.
Mr.Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?
Mr.Smith. Ever what that means.
Mr.Ball. That means you don't have to sign it.
Mr.Smith. I will sign it.
Mr.Ball. Do you want to sign it?
Mr.Smith. Yes; I will sign it.
Mr.Ball. Okay. Do you have a telephone number?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, the young lady will notify you when you can come in and sign it.
I thank you very much.
The testimony of George Jefferson Applin, Jr. was taken at 4:05 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand up, Mr. Applin, and we—raise your right hand to be sworn, please.
Mr.Applin. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give for this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Applin. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you be seated, please, and state your name for the record.
Mr.Applin. George Jefferson Applin, Jr.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.Applin. 714 East Hull, Denison, Tex.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Applin. Well, my occupation, common laborer, but I am working for Phillips 66 there in Denison, service station.
Mr.Ball. You have come into Dallas from Denison, haven't you?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Well, that is about 68 miles?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you are entitled to get compensation for your transportation?
Mr.Applin. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And we'll have your name and address in the record, and I will try to make arrangements for that information to take care of your expenses. You came in when? This morning?
Mr.Applin. No; it was about 15 minutes after 2 o'clock, when I came in here.
Mr.Ball. Came into Dallas?
Mr.Applin. Yes.
Mr.Ball.And——
Mr.Applin. No; I was here at 2 o'clock, but I had a flat and my car stalled on me about three or four blocks over.
Mr.Ball. And you intend to return home tonight, do you?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. So, you won't have any hotel expense, will you?
Mr.Applin. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you went to school, and how far in school, what you have done since then?
Mr.Applin. Well, I was born in Madona Hospital in Denison, and lived there pretty near all my life.
Mr.Ball. How old are you?
Mr.Applin. Twenty-two.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to school?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I went to LaMar School and junior high.
Mr.Ball. And how far did you go? Finished junior high?
Mr.Applin. No, sir; I went to the eighth grade.
Mr.Ball. Have you been beyond the eighth grade?
Mr.Applin. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Applin. Well, I helped my daddy some, and got odd jobs and stuff.
Mr.Ball. Live with your mother now?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I do. I live with my parents.
Mr.Ball. Your mother and father?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You have been doing mostly common labor, have you?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; mostly common labor.
Mr.Ball. Ever been in trouble with the law of any sort?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I have.
Mr.Ball. What kind of trouble?
Mr.Applin. Burglary.
Mr.Ball. When was that?
Mr.Applin. In 1963.
Mr.Ball. Did you do any time?
Mr.Applin. No, sir; I got a probated sentence for it.
Mr.Ball. That is the only trouble you have ever had?
Mr.Applin. Well, for—except for minor traffic violations.
Mr.Ball. Outside of that you haven't had any trouble?
Mr.Applin. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, November 22, 1963, were you in Dallas?
Mr.Applin. Yes; I believe I was.
Mr.Ball. What were you doing here?
Mr.Applin. Well, I was working for the Rollform Corp.
Mr.Ball. How do you spell it?
Mr.Applin. Well, I have got one of their checks—check stubs here in my pocket, I believe. At least I think I have. Here it is [indicating].
Mr.Ball. What were you doing in Dallas?
Mr.Applin. Working.
Mr.Ball. Working here in Dallas?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work?
Mr.Applin. Well, I was working as, open-head crane operator, and painter and front-end loader.
Mr.Ball. Did you go to the picture show that afternoon?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. How did you happen to be off duty that day?
Mr.Applin. They was installing a new cutting press for the rollers, and they did not need me, so, they let me off for 2 days.
Mr.Ball. For 2 days?
Mr.Applin. For 2 days.
Mr.Ball. What did you do? Go to the picture show?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. What time of day did you go there?
Mr.Applin. Well, actually, I went to—I was over in Oak Cliff, around about, I guess, about 12 o'clock, I imagine is what time it was. I was there and the show hadn't opened up, so, I was sitting in my car listening to the radio up until the time that the show opened.
Mr.Ball. You went in the show when it opened?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Paid your way?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And where did you take your seat? What part of the theatre?
Mr.Applin. About six rows down, I got in the middle aisle, about the middle of the chairs.
Mr.Ball. Middle aisle, six rows from the rear?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you were how far from the middle aisle into the row of seats?
Mr.Applin. Well, about—seemed quite a little while since I thought about this. I guess I was about four or five seats over from the aisle.
Mr.Ball. From the aisle. Now, did something happen there during that showing of that picture that you remember?
Mr.Applin. Well, I know this much, Audie Murphy introduced the picture.
Mr.Ball. Then some police officers came in there?
Mr.Applin. No, sir; the lights came on.
Mr.Ball. Then what do you remember happening?
Mr.Applin. I seen the officers come down the right-hand aisle.
Mr.Ball. From the rear, or from the front?
Mr.Applin. From the rear.
Mr.Ball. Come in from the screen side, or the place you enter?
Mr.Applin. Where you enter it.
Mr.Ball. From your rear?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; came in on the right-hand aisle over against the wall.
Mr.Ball. Did he have anything in his hands?
Mr.Applin. Yes; I believe he had a shotgun. Might have been a rifle.
Mr.Ball. What else did you see?
Mr.Applin. Well, when I seen him, I was wondering what was the matter and what about the lights.
Mr.Ball. You got up and ran up to the front?
Mr.Applin. Went to the front to find out what was happened—was happened—happening. As I was going up an officer passed me going down and I stopped to find out.
MrBall. Did you ask him?
Mr.Applin. No, sir; he passed me before I got a chance to ask him.
Mr.Ball. What did he do?
Mr.Applin. Went to the front and turned around and started back up.
Mr.Ball. Started back up the aisle?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Towards you?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you see him do?
Mr.Applin. Well, he stopped and asked two boys sitting down in the front, asked them to stand upand——
Mr.Ball. Did he search them?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; they shuffled them down.
Mr.Ball. Did he search you?
Mr.Applin. No, sir; they came on up to Oswald, where he was sitting.
Mr.Ball. Where was he sitting?
Mr.Applin. I—he was sitting, I guess, about 3 or 4 rows down.
Mr.Ball. You mean from the rear of the theatre?
Mr.Applin. From the rear.
Mr.Ball. And how far over from the aisle?
Mr.Applin. I guess that would be about three seats. They was sitting about two or three seats.
Mr.Ball. What did you see him do?
Mr.Applin. He—started off, the officer said, "Will you stand up, please?" And he stood up.
Mr.Ball. How close were you to the officer and this man when you heard the officer say, "Stand up"?
Mr.Applin. I guess it was about—it was not over four seats down from the back, rear.
Mr.Ball. Were you at the rear?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; I was at the rear of the show.
Mr.Ball. You were at the rear of the show?
Mr.Applin. Yes, sir; well, there was a partition here. A partition here [indicating], and there was about, oh, I guess about four rows down from me.
Mr.Ball. All right. In other words, the officer hadn't reached you yet, when he asked Oswald to stand up?
Mr.Applin. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You stood up and went toward the rear of the theatre, did you?