Mr.Brewer. I don't remember if it was the same seat or not.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Brewer. I heard a noise outside, and I opened the door, and the alley, I guess it was filled with police cars and policemen were on the fire exits and stacked around the alley, and they grabbed me, a couple of them and held and searched me and asked me what I was doing there, and I told them that there was a guy in the theatre that I was suspicious of, and he asked me if he was still there.
And I said, yes, I just seen him. And he asked me if I would point him out.
And I and two or three other officers walked out on the stage and I pointed him out, and there were officers coming in from the front of the show, I guess, coming toward that way, and officers going from the back.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you see?
Mr.Brewer. Well, I saw this policeman approach Oswald, and Oswald stood up and I heard some hollering, I don't know exactly what he said, and this man hit Patrolman McDonald.
Mr.Belin. You say this man hit Patrolman McDonald. Did you know it was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr.Brewer. I didn't know his name, but I had seen him quite a few times around Oak Cliff. But I didn't know his name.
Mr.Belin. Then you later found out this was Patrolman McDonald?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you say this man was the same man?
Mr.Brewer. The same man that had stood in my lobby that I followed to the show.
Mr.Belin. Who hit who first?
Mr.Brewer. Oswald hit McDonald first, and he knocked him to the seat.
Mr.Belin. Who knocked who?
Mr.Brewer. He knocked McDonald down. McDonald fell against one of the seats. And then real quick he was back up.
Mr.Belin. When you say hewas——
Mr.Brewer. McDonald was back up. He just knocked him down for a second and he was back up. And I jumped off the stage and was walking toward that, and I saw this gun come up and—in Oswald's hand, a gun up in the air.
Mr.Belin. Did you see from where the gun came?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. You saw the gun up in the air?
Mr.Brewer. And somebody hollered "He's got a gun."
And there were a couple of officers fighting him and taking the gun away from him, and they took the gun from him, and he was fighting, still fighting, and I heard some of the police holler, I don't know who it was, "Kill the President, will you." And I saw fists flying and they were hitting him.
Mr.Belin. Was he fighting back at that time?
Mr.Brewer. Yes; he was fighting back.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Brewer. Well, just in a short time they put the handcuffs on him and they took him out.
Mr.Belin. Did you see police officers hit him after they got the handcuffs on him?
Mr.Brewer. No; I didn't see them.
Mr.Belin. Did you see any police officer hit Oswald after Oswald stopped fighting?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear Oswald say anything?
Mr.Brewer. As they were taking him out, he stopped and turned around and hollered. "I am not resisting arrest," about twice. "I am not resisting arrest." And they took him on outside.
Mr.Belin. Then what happened?
Mr.Brewer. Well, then, the police officers and plainclothesmen, whoever they were, got everybody that was in the theatre and set them aside, andanother officer was taking their names and addresses of all the people that were in the theatre.
Mr.Belin. When you first saw this man, when you saw him leave what you referred to as the lobby of your shoestore building, what is it, marble or concrete?
Mr.Brewer. Terrazzo.
Mr.Belin. Terrazzo between the sidewalk and your front door?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where were you when you first saw him?
Mr.Brewer. I was behind the counter there by the hose bar.
Mr.Belin. About how far were you from the front door?
Mr.Brewer. Ten feet.
Mr.Belin. Could you see through there to get a good view?
Mr.Brewer. Yes; the doors are solid glass.
Mr.Belin. Then you saw this man leave?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then what did you do?
Mr.Brewer. I went out the front door and stood in front of the store and watched him.
Mr.Belin. You stood in front of the door?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Where was he walking when you first saw him? As you got out in front of your store?
Mr.Brewer. He was, I would say, he was in front of the furniture store. What is the name of that?
Mr.Belin. Would that be Thompson's Furniture Store?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you know—notice how fast this man was walking?
Mr.Brewer. Just a little faster than usual.
Mr.Belin. Faster than usual walk?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Then about how far were you behind him?
Mr.Brewer. Well, I stood there until he walked into the theatre. I don't really know what I was thinking about.
Mr.Belin. You stood in front of your store as he walked into the theatre?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. About how far is the entrance of the theatre from your store?
Mr.Brewer. I would say 50 or 60 feet—yards.
Mr.Belin. Then after you saw him turn into the theatre, what did you do?
Mr.Brewer. Then I walked toward the theatre.
Mr.Belin. At an average pace, or above average?
Mr.Brewer. I don't know.
Mr.Belin. You don't remember? About how long after you got to the theatre did the police come in, if you can remember?
Mr.Brewer. I don't remember that either.
Mr.Belin. Do you remember about what time it was when the police came in?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything else you can think of that in any way bears on this?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brewer, I am handing you what has been marked "Commission Exhibit 150," and ask you to state whether or not that looks like the shirt you saw the man wear?
Mr.Brewer. That looks like the shirt, yes.
Mr.Belin. Did you notice whether the man that wore it had any holes in the elbows at all, or not?
Mr.Brewer. I didn't notice.
Mr.Belin. But this Exhibit 150, looks like the shirt?
Mr.Brewer. It looks like the shirt.
Mr.Belin. Was he wearing a jacket? I believe you answered that before.
Mr.Brewer. No, he didn't have on a jacket.
Mr.Belin. Did you hear this man as he was in the theatre say anything other than "I am not resisting arrest."?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Did he say anything, or could you not understand it?
Mr.Brewer. He said something, but I couldn't understand what it was.
Mr.Belin. When he said, "I am not resisting arrest," was this before or after they had the handcuffs on him?
Mr.Brewer. After.
Mr.Belin. Mr. Brewer, you have the right, if you want, to come back and read this deposition and sign it, or you can just waive the signing of it and let the court reporter send it directly to us in Washington. Do you have any preference on it?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Do you want to waive it?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. We want to thank you for all of your cooperation on this. I might ask one other question. We chatted for a few minutes when we first met before we started taking this deposition, did we not?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything we talked there about that isn't recorded in this written testimony?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Is there anything you said which is different insofar as stating the facts and what you have stated here on the record?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. When we first met, what is the fact as to whether or not I just asked you to tell your story, or whether or not I tried to tell you what I thought the story was?
Mr.Brewer. You asked me to tell the story first.
Mr.Belin. Is that what you did?
Mr.Brewer. Yes.
Mr.Belin. Anything else you can think of?
Mr.Brewer. No.
Mr.Belin. Please thank Hardy's Shoe Store for us for letting you take the time to be here. We thank you very much.
Mr.Brewer. Okay.
The testimony of Julia Postal was taken at 3 p.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand and hold up your hand, please and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you will give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Postal. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mrs.Postal. Julia Postal.
Mr.Ball. What is your address, please?
Mrs.Postal. 2728 Seevers.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and what your education was, what your occupation has been, just in general.
Mrs.Postal. Was born here in Dallas and I went through all school here to my first year at Adamson, and went to California and finished up out there.
Mr.Ball. Finished high school there?
Mrs.Postal. Went through 4 years of it.
Mr.Ball. In California?
Mrs.Postal. In California, and then I lived there for 12 years and came back here. I have been here ever since.
Mr.Ball. What has been your occupation?
Mrs.Postal. Well, basically it has been theatre, cashier, and officework in connection with theatres.
Mr.Ball. You have been to California? Did you work in theatres there?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; I worked at the Paramount Theatre, and Graumans, and R.K.O. Used to work for the Pantages. Worked for the Wilshire in the office.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been back from California, to Dallas?
Mrs.Postal. Oh, me, I have been there 11 years, 14 or 15 years; really, I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Have you been working? You are now working where?
Mrs.Postal. With the Texas—really, it is United Theatres, Inc., at the Texas Theatre.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been working there?
Mrs.Postal. It was 11 years last November 24.
Mr.Ball. Same theatre?
Mrs.Postal. Same theatre.
Mr.Ball. What were your hours of work last fall?
Mrs.Postal. Last fall? Well, let's see, I worked in the office, and then started cutting down personnel and I worked in the office until they opened the box office at 12:45, and then come down to the box office and worked until 5.
Mr.Ball. When you say worked in the box office, is that take tickets?
Mrs.Postal. Sell tickets.
Mr.Ball. Sell tickets. Is there a ticket taker inside the theatre?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; now, during the slack period like this with school, just an usher who works the concession and tears the tickets, because it is just straight through.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, Friday, November 22, 1963, what time did your box office open?
Mrs.Postal. We open daily at 12:45, sometimes may be 5, 4 minutes later or something, but that is our regular hours.
Mr.Ball. On this day you opened on 12:45, November 22?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. And on that day, did you have the ticket taker working around 12:45, 1 o'clock?
Mrs.Postal. Just the usher, which, as I said, works the concession and ticket.
Mr.Ball. What was his name?
Mrs.Postal. Warren Burroughs. Call him Butch.
Mr.Ball. Butch Burroughs?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Was he stationed inside the door, the entrance to the theatre?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; he stays, actually, behind the concession counter, but as I said, the concession runs for the entire way as you go in the door and it runs this way so that you can see the door and steps insides, and tears tickets.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you have a radio in your ticket office?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh, a transistor.
Mr.Ball. Had you heard that the President had been shot?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; my daughter had called me at the office before we opened up and said it was on the TV, so I then turned the little transistor on right away, and of course it verified the—they were saying again that he had been shot.
Mr.Ball. And did you find out that he had died here? That President Kennedy was deador——
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. You didn't hear that?
Mrs.Postal. I was listening to KLIF, and I was down in the little box office, and they kept saying that Parkland hadn't issued an official report, that he had been removed from the operating table, and everyone wanted to surmise, but still hope, and it was after this that they came out and said that he was officially dead.
Mr.Ball. But, you didn't hear that when you were in the box office, did you?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, I did. In fact, I was just about—it was just about the time all chaos broke loose.
Mr.Ball. Now, did many people go into the theatre from the time you opened at the box office until about 1:15 or so?
Mrs.Postal. Some.
Mr.Ball. How many? Can you give me an estimate?
Mrs.Postal. I believe 24.
Mr.Ball. Twenty-four?
Mrs.Postal. Fourteen or twenty-four. I believe it was 24. Everything was happening so fast.
Mr.Ball. You had sold about that many tickets?
Mrs.Postal. That's right.
Mr.Ball. What was the price of admission?
Mrs.Postal. We had three. Adults 90 cents, teenager with a card is 50 cents, and a child is 35, and you have a pass ticket.
Mr.Ball. It is cheaper that time of day than other times of day?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; we don't change prices. Used to, but we don't.
Mr.Ball. Same price?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Now, did you see anybody go in the theatre—well, did you see any activity on the street?
Mrs.Postal. Now, yes, sir; just about the time we opened, my employer had stayed and took the tickets because we change pictures on Thursday and want to do anything, he—and about this time I heard the sirens—police was racing back and forth.
Mr.Ball. On Jefferson?
Mrs.Postal. On Jefferson Boulevard, and then we made the remark, "Something is about to bust," or "pop," or something to that effect, so, it was just about—some sirens were going west, and my employer got in his car. He was parked in front, to go up to see where they were going. He, perhaps I said, he passed Oswald. At that time I didn't know it was Oswald. Had to bypass him, because as he went through this way, Oswald went through this way and ducked into the theatre there.
Mr.Ball. Let me see. Had you ever seen this man before then at that particular theatre?
Mrs.Postal. Not that I know of, huh-uh.
Mr.Ball. A police car had gone by just before this?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; going west.
Mr.Ball. Its siren on?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; full blast.
Mr.Ball. And after you saw the police car go west with its siren on, why at the time the police car went west with its siren on, did you see the man that ducked? This man that youwere——
Mrs.Postal. This man, yes; he ducked into the box office and—I don't know if you are familiar with the theatre.
Mr.Ball. Yes; I have seen the theatre.
Mrs.Postal. You have? Well, he was coming from east going west. In other words, he ducked right in.
Mr.Ball. Ducked in, what do you mean? He had come around thecorner——
Mrs.Postal. Yes; and when the sirens went by he had a panicked look on his face, and he ducked in.
Mr.Ball. Now, as the car went by, you say the man ducked in, had you seen him before the car went by, the police went by?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; I was looking up, as I say, when the cars passed, as you know, they make a tremendous noise, and he ducked in as my boss went that way to get in his car.
Mr.Ball. Who is your boss?
Mrs.Postal. Mr. John A. Callahan.
Mr.Ball. Where did you say he was?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; I say, they bypassed each other, actually, the man ducked in this way and my employer went that-a-way, to get in his car.
Mr.Ball. When you say "ducked in," you mean he entered the door from the street?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; just ducked into the other—into the outer part of it.
Mr.Ball. I see, out in the open space?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; just right around the corner.
Mr.Ball. Just right around the corner?
Mrs.Postal. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And your boss passed him, did he?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; they went—one came one way, and one went the other way just at the same time.
Mr.Ball. What did you see him do after he came around the corner?
Mrs.Postal. Well, I didn't actually—because I stepped out of the box office and went to the front and was facing west. I was right at the box office facing west, because I thought the police were stopping up quite a ways. Well, just as I turned around then Johnny Brewer was standing there and he asked me if the fellow that ducked in bought a ticket, and I said, "No; by golly, he didn't," and turned around expecting to see him.
Mr.Ball. And he had ducked in?
Mrs.Postal. And Mr. Brewer said he had been ducking in at his place of business, and he had gone by me, because I was facing west, and I said, "Go in and see if you can see him," it isn't too much people in there. So, he came and says, well, he didn't see him, and I says, "Well, he has to be there." So I told him to go back and check—we have exit doors, behind—one behind the stage and one straight through, and asked him to check them, check the lounges because I knew he was in there. Well, he just had to be.
Mr.Ball. The last time you had seen him before he ducked in, he was just standing outside of the door, was he?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; he was still just in—just off of the sidewalk, and he headed for the theatre.
Mr.Ball. Were the doors of the theatre open?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. It was closed?
Mrs.Postal. It was closed.
Mr.Ball. And you didn't see him actually enter the theatre then?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You hadn't seen him go by you?
Mrs.Postal. I knew he didn't go by me, because I was facing west, and Johnny, he had come up from east which meant he didn't go back that way. He had come from east going west.
Mr.Ball. All right, now what happened after that?
Mrs.Postal. Well, I, like—I told him—asked him to check everything.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask Butch Burroughs if he had seen him?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; I told Johnny this, don't tell him, because he is an excitable person, and just have him, you know, go with you and examine the exits and check real good, so, he came back and said he hadn't seen anything although, he had heard a seat pop up like somebody getting out, but there was nobody around that area, so, I told Johnny about the fact that the President had been assassinated. "I don't know if this is the man they want," I said, "in there, but he is running from them for some reason," and I said "I am going to call the police, and you and Butch go get on each of the exit doors and stay there."
So, well, I called the police, and he wanted to know why I thought it was their man, and I said, "Well, I didn't know," and he said, "Well, it fits the description," and I have not—I said I hadn't heard the description. All I know is, "This man is running from them for some reason." And he wanted to know why, and told him because everytime the sirens go by he would duck and he wanted to know—well, if he fits the description is what he says. I said, "Let me tell you what he looks like and you take it from there." And explained that he had on this brown sports shirt and I couldn't tell you what design it was, and medium height, ruddy looking to me, and he said, "Thank you," and I called the operator and asked him to look through the little hole and see if he could see anything and told him I had called the police, and what was happening, andhe wanted to know if I wanted him to cut the picture off, and I says, "No, let's wait until they get here." So, seemed like I hung up the intercom phone when here all of a sudden, police cars, policemen, plainclothesmen, I never saw so many people in my life. And they raced in, and the next thing I knew, they were carrying—well, that is when I first heard Officer Tippit had been shot because some officer came in the box office and used the phone, said, "I think we have got our man on both accounts." "What two accounts?" And said, "Well, Officer Tippit's," shocked me, because Officer Tippit used to work part time for us years ago. I didn't know him personally.
Mr.Ball. You mean he guarded the theatre?
Mrs.Postal. On Friday nights and Saturdays, canvass the theatre, you know, and that—then they were bringing Oswald out the door over thereand——
Mr.Ball. Well, now, was this before they had gone into the theatre that this officer used the phone?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. It was after?
Mrs.Postal. There was not one man walked through this theatre. They were running.
Mr.Ball. Did the officers go in the front of the theatre?
Mrs.Postal. Yes. Definitely.
Mr.Ball. Did you go in?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; I stayed at the box office.
Mr.Ball. You didn't see anything that happened inside?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you see them bring a man out?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How many men had hold of him?
Mrs.Postal. Well, I—like I said, the public was getting there at that time, and the streets, sidewalk and around the streets and everything and they brought him out the double doors here [indicating]. I remember, the officer had his hands behind him with his chin back like this [indicating] because I understand he had been using some profuse (sic) language which—inside. I'd say four or five.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed?
Mrs.Postal. I don't know, sir, because the officers were all around him and from the rear there and his hands were to his back.
Mr.Ball. They were?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. And an officer had hold of him from the side?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; this way.
Mr.Ball. With his arm underneath his chin?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he have any bruises or cuts? Did Oswald have any bruises or cuts on his face?
Mrs.Postal. No.
Mr.Ball. You didn't see any?
Mrs.Postal. No; huh-uh.
Mr.Ball. Was he saying anything?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; as I said, that was my understanding, that is the reason that they had him like that, because he was screaming.
Mr.Ball. But, you didn't hear him say anything?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir. He couldn't possibly say anything the way they had him.
Mr.Ball. What happened then?
Mrs.Postal. That is when I really started shaking. I had never seen a live mob scene,that——
Mr.Ball.Well——
Mrs.Postal. They said, "What is going on?" And someone said, "Suspect," and they started in this way, just about that time I got out to the box office, back to the box office, and they started screaming profuse language and—"Kill the so-and-so," and trying to get to him, and this and that and the officers were trying to hold on to Oswald—when I say, "Oswald," that man, because as I said, Ididn't know who he was at that time and they was trying to hold him, because he was putting up a struggle, and then trying to keep the public off, and on the way to the car, parked right out front, one of the officers was—at that time I thought he was putting his hat on the man's face to try to keep the public from grabbing him by the hair, but I later read in the paper it was to cover his face and then he got him in the car, and all bedlam, so far as the public, broke.
Mr.Ball. They drove away with him, did they?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir; that one car did; uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever go down to the police station?
Mrs.Postal. Police station?
Mr.Ball. Yes; later the city hall or police office?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; I went down to the homicidal bureau.
Mr.Ball. When?
Mrs.Postal. Well, let's see, that was a Friday. I believe it was the Thursday following.
Mr.Ball. You didn't go down there that day?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down there the next day?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. According to your affidavit, it shows that you signed it on the 4th of December. Would that be about right?
Mrs.Postal. Was that on Thursday?
Mr.Ball. Yes; I think.
Mrs.Postal. I can't remember. I think it was a Thursday.
Mr.Ball. That was after Oswald was dead?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; well, yes; because he was killed on the 24th, yes; because I know I didn't go down until the following week.
Mr.Ball. Now, was it after Oswald, the man brought out on—out of the theatre was taken away in the car that the officer called and said, "I'm sure we have got our man——"?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; that officer came out of the theatre and grabbed at the phone and made the call about simultaneously as they were bringing Oswald out.
Mr.Ball. And that was when you heard that Officer Tippit had been shot?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Why didn't Warren Burroughs see him get in, get in there? Do you have any idea?
Mrs.Postal. We talked about that, and the concession stand is along here, and if he came in on the other end, which we summarized that is what Oswald did, because the steps, immediately as you open the door there. It has been done before with kids trying to sneak in, run right on up in the balcony.
Mr.Ball. You asked Warren Burroughs why he didn't see him, did you?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; we kidded him quite a bit anyway, because some people do then get by him.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mrs.Postal. Ah, he said at first that he had seen him, and I says, "Now, Butch, if you saw him come in—" says, "Well, I saw him going out." But he didn't really see him. So, he just summarized that he ran up in the balcony, because if he had come through the foyer, Butch would have seen him.
Mr.Ball. He was arrested, though, down in the orchestra, the second row fromthe——
Mrs.Postal. Third.
Mr.Ball. Third?
Mrs.Postal. Three rows down, five seats over.
Mr.Ball. I was trying to say the third row. How could he get from the balcony down there?
Mrs.Postal. Oh, that is very easy. You can go up in the balcony and right straight down, those steps come back down, and that would bring you into it. He wouldn't have to go by Butch at all.
Mr.Ball. Oh, I see. And he could get into the balcony without Butch's seeing him?
Mrs.Postal. Yes; if Butch was down in the other end getting something.
Mr.Ball. And he could go in?
Mrs.Postal. He could have gotten in.
Mr.Ball. All right. I show you an Exhibit 150, a shirt. Does that look anything like the shirt he had on?
Mrs.Postal. Yes, it was something like this shirt. I couldn't say it is the same except it was brown and it was hanging out.
Mr.Ball. Outside his pants?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Wasn't tucked into his pants?
Mrs.Postal. Huh-uh.
Mr.Ball. When he went in was it tucked in his pants when he went in?
Mrs.Postal. No, sir; because I remember he came flying around the corner, because his hair was and shirt was kind of waving.
Mr.Ball. And his shirt was out?
Mrs.Postal. Uh-huh.
Mr.Ball. Yousay——
Mrs.Postal. It was hanging out.
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Postal, this will be written up and you can read it and sign it if you wish, or you can waive signature and we will send it on to the Commission without your signature. Now, how do you feel about it? Do you want to do that?
Mrs.Postal. I don't know. I mean, this is all new to me anyway.
Mr.Ball. Would you just as leave waive your signature?
Mrs.Postal. Well, I see no reason why not.
Mr.Ball. Okay. Fine.
Then you don't have to come down and sign it. We will send it without your signature. Thank you, very much for coming in.
The testimony of Warren H. Burroughs was taken at 9:15 a.m., on April 8, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. State your name for the record, please.
Mr.Burroughs. Warren H. Burroughs.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live, Mr. Burroughs?
Mr.Burroughs. 407 Montreal.
Mr.Ball. Where were you born?
Mr.Burroughs. Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, I'm going to private school 2 days a week. I stopped going to public school in the ninth grade.
Mr.Ball. You quit in the ninth grade?
Mr.Burroughs. I stopped in the ninth grade, but I'm going to private school 2 days a week over in Highland Park.
Mr.Ball. You are now?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes; I am now.
Mr.Ball. How old are you?
Mr.Burroughs. Twenty-two.
Mr.Ball. What have you been doing most of your life—what kind of work have you been doing?
Mr.Burroughs. I worked at the Texas Theatre and I helped my dad out as an apprentice, he is an electrician.
Mr.Ball. Were you ever in the Army?
Mr.Burroughs. No, sir—they tried to get me, but I couldn't pass—I passed the physical part, but the mental part—I didn't make enough points on the score, so the board sent me a card back and classifying me different.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, you were working at the Texas Theatre, were you?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of job did you have?
Mr.Burroughs. During the week I worked behind the concession. On weekends I usher.
Mr.Ball. On weekends you usher?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. During the week?
Mr.Burroughs. I am behind the concession.
Mr.Ball. During the afternoon of the week—do you take tickets too?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes—I take tickets every day.
Mr.Ball. You do?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And, run the concession?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. If anybody comes in there without a ticket, what do you do, run them off?
Mr.Burroughs. I make it a point to stop them and ask them to go out and get a ticket. I just failed to see him when he slipped in.
Mr.Ball. We will get to that in a minute—I want to see what you usually do if somebody comes in without a ticket.
Mr.Burroughs. I stop them and have them go out to the box office and get an admission ticket.
Mr.Ball. On this day of November 22, 1963, what time did you go to work?
Mr.Burroughs. I went to work at 12.
Mr.Ball. You went to work that day at 12?
Mr.Burroughs. That day at 12 o'clock—yes.
Mr.Ball. And you later saw a struggle in the theatre between a man and some officers, didn't you?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see that man come in the theatre?
Mr.Burroughs. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Do you have any idea what you were doing when he came in?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, I was—I had a lot of stock candy to count and put in the candy case for the coming night, and if he had came around in front of the concession out there, I would have seen him, even though I was bent down, I would have seen him, but otherwise—I think he sneaked up the stairs real fast.
Mr.Ball. Up to the balcony?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes, sir—first, I think he was up there.
Mr.Ball. At least there was a stairway there?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes, there was two.
Mr.Ball. Is there a stairway near the entry?
Mr.Burroughs. Of the door—yes. Yes, it goes straight—you come through the door and go straight—you go upstairs to the balcony.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody come in there that day? Up to the time of the struggle between the man and the police—who didn't have a ticket?
Mr.Burroughs. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Later on the police came in your place?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. They asked you if you had seen a man come in there without a ticket?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him?
Mr.Burroughs. I said, "I haven't seen him myself. He might have, but Ididn't see him when he came in. He must have sneaked in and run on upstairs before I saw him."
Mr.Ball. Later on, did somebody point out a man in the theatre to you?
Mr.Burroughs. No—I got information that a man—the police were cruising up and down Jefferson hunting for Oswald, and he ran to a shoestore and then came out and came on up to the Texas, and the man came in and told me that a man fitting that description came in the show and he wanted me to help him find him, and we went and checked the exit doors, he was up in the balcony, I imagine, and then we went back out and the police caught him downstairs.
Mr.Ball. You went to check the exit doors?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. With the shoe salesman?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And were the police out at the exit doors?
Mr.Burroughs. They came on—somehow they came in—one came in through the back and the rest of them came in through the front.
Mr.Ball. Did you see them come in through the back when you were back there?
Mr.Burroughs. I saw one of them.
Mr.Ball. The exit doors you are talking about were in the back or in the front?
Mr.Burroughs. They are at the back—they have one main one going out to the alley and they have one down here by the stage going out to the parking lot, and the other two are upstairs.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any struggle or fight between this man and any police officer?
Mr.Burroughs. No; not exactly, because I just had one door open and that was the middle door, and I couldn't see them—that was the main thing.
Mr.Ball. Where were you?
Mr.Burroughs. I was back behind the concession.
Mr.Ball. How do you get from the exit door in the rear of the theatre to behind the concession?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, the concession is right here [indicating] and the doors are right here, and the theatre is inside, and exit door No. 1 is straight down this way and another one is straight down this way.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what you did after you went to the exit door with the shoe salesman; what did you do?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, he went down to this door and I stayed at this door.
Mr.Ball. You mean at the rear of the theatre?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes—he went down to the rear of the theatre, and I stayed at this door in case he went out one of the exit doors.
Mr.Ball. You stayed there, did you?
Mr.Burroughs. I stayed there for about 5 minutes and I came back out to the concession.
Mr.Ball. Down the main aisle?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were there police in there at that time?
Mr.Burroughs. They were in there checking to see where he was.
Mr.Ball. Was there any struggle going on when you came back from the exit door to the concession?
Mr.Burroughs. No.
Mr.Ball. There was not?
Mr.Burroughs. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear or see any trouble between this man and the police?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, I heard a struggle from outside, but I really couldn't tell.
Mr.Ball. What did you hear?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, I couldn't hear anything on the inside, but when they brought him out, he was hollering and raising, "I demand my rights," and all that.
Mr.Ball. What else did you hear?
Mr.Burroughs. That's about all.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what his appearance was as they brought him out?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, he didn't seem—he seemed like he was mad at everybody.
Mr.Ball. He was?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did he shout in a loud voice?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes; like—"I demand my rights" [witness holding up both hands above his head.]
Mr.Ball. Anything else?
Mr.Burroughs. Well, they carried him out to the car and there was a mob of people out there—more people than I have ever seen before and they put him in the car and went off.
Mr.Ball. How many officers were with him? When you saw them take him from the theatre?
Mr.Burroughs. I believe about three or four.
Mr.Ball. Did any of them have ahold of him?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes; they had ahold of him—they were dragging him out—I mean they had ahold of him—two on each side.
Mr.Ball. Was he walking or were they dragging him?
Mr.Burroughs. He was walking, but he was kind of urged on out the door into the car.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed?
Mr.Burroughs. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Were his hands behind him or in front of him?
Mr.Burroughs. They were behind him.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike him?
Mr.Burroughs. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you see a police officer with his arm around the neck of this man, who arrested him?
Mr.Burroughs. I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see a police officer strike this man with the butt of a shotgun?
Mr.Burroughs. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were any of the officers in the theatre armed with shotguns?
Mr.Burroughs. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all, Mr. Burroughs, and this will be written up and you can go down and sign it if you wish, or you can waive your signature right now. Which do you prefer?
Mr.Burroughs. I want to come down and sign it.
Mr.Ball. All right. You will be notified to come down and you can read it over and sign it. Thank you very much for coming down here.
Mr.Burroughs. Thank you. I hope I helped you some.
Mr.Ball. Yes; I hope you did, too.
Mr.Burroughs. I'll see you later.
Mr.Ball. All right. Goodby.
The testimony of Bob K. Carroll was taken at 9 a.m., on April 3, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Carroll, would you stand up please and take the oath.
Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Carroll. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Carroll. Bob K. Carroll.
Mr.Ball. And what is your residence address?
Mr.Carroll. 814 Redbud, Duncanville, Tex.
Mr.Ball. And what is your occupation?
Mr.Carroll. Detective, Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Ball. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Carroll. Ten years and three months.
Mr.Ball. Tell me something about yourself? Where were you born?
Mr.Carroll. I was born here in Dallas.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Carroll. Sunset High.
Mr.Ball. And did you go beyond high school?
Mr.Carroll. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after you got out of high school?
Mr.Carroll. Actually, I quit high school in 1947 and went to work at Vitalic Battery Co. [spelling] V-i-t-a-l-i-c. I worked there off and on, sometimes I believe during the seasonal layoffs and I would go back when they started rehiring, and I worked there until I went on active duty with the Marine Corps March 1, 1952, and I was released from active duty in May of 1953, and when I returned to Dallas I went to work for James A. Lewis Engineering Co., and I worked for them for approximately 18 months and then I worked 2 months for the Texas Highway Department on a survey crew, and then I joined the Dallas Police Department.
Since I have been in the Dallas Police Department, I have worked the radio and patrol divisions, the accident prevention bureau and the special service bureau. While assigned to the special service bureau, I worked with the narcotics section, the criminal intelligence section and the vice section and the administrative section.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you on duty?
Mr.Carroll. Yes, sir; I was.
Mr.Ball. What were your hours of work that day?
Mr.Carroll. We were instructed to be in the assembly room at 10 a.m. for briefing prior to the arrival of President Kennedy, and at that time I was in the assembly room at 8 a.m.
Mr.Ball. What job was assigned to you that day?
Mr.Carroll. I was assigned to the 700 block of Main Street.
Mr.Ball. Along the curb—did you stand along the sidewalk?
Mr.Carroll. Yes, sir; to be there, and, of course, there were uniform officers also assigned in that block, but I think they had one detective for each block.
Mr.Ball. How far is 700 Main Street from Houston and Main?
Mr.Carroll. That would be roughly about three blocks—three or four blocks, maybe.
Mr.Ball. Did you hear the sound of any shots?
Mr.Carroll. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Ball. When did you first hear that the President had been shot?
Mr.Carroll. I had walked around to a tavern around the corner. I was walking down the street and I passed this person I know and I stepped in this tavern to speak to him and I heard it—they turned on the TV just as I walked in the door and I heard it on the TV set.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Carroll. I left and went to the office, and when I got to the office I called the dispatcher and they told me to go to the scene and I left the office and went to the garage, which is two blocks from city hall and got a car and reported to the School Book Depository.
Mr.Ball. About what time did you get to the School Book Depository?
Mr.Carroll. Let's see—approximately—let's see, the shooting occurred—it was 12:30, I believe, it was approximately 1 o'clock—maybe a little before, but right around 1 o'clock, and after I got to the Depository, they started organizing search details and I was assigned to search the basement. Well, I wentinto the basement and we determined that we needed some light in the basement, so I came back upstairs to get some lights, and when I got upstairs I heard that an officer had been shot in Oak Cliff, and no one had any information on it and the people I talked to had no information, so I got on the phone, and I called the dispatcher's office. The dispatcher stated it was Officer Tippit who was shot and he was dead, and so when I come back out of the office where I had used the phone, I requested permission to go to Oak Cliff and permission was granted and I took K. E. Lyons, and he and I left for Oak Cliff.
Mr.Ball. Is K. E. Lyons a detective?
Mr.Carroll. He is a patrolman assigned to the special service bureau. He doesn't work in uniform.
Mr.Ball. He works in plain clothes?
Mr.Carroll. He works in plain clothes, but his rank is patrolman, but we were in the 300 block of East Jefferson when the call came out on the radio that a suspect had been seen going into the Texas Theatre. We went immediately to the Texas Theatre, which is about five blocks away—I think it is in the 200 block of West Jefferson, and ourselves and the radio patrol unit were the first units to arrive at the theatre, and we pulled to the curb and parked directly in front of the entrance to the theatre, and the radio patrol car pulled into the head-in parking behind us. When Lyons and I went in, a lady that was in the theatre—I don't know who she was—she said he was upstairs, and that was all the conversation I heard from her.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who the lady was?
Mr.Carroll. No, sir; I have no idea.
Mr.Ball. Was it the girl who sells tickets?
Mr.Carroll. I don't know, sir, whether it was or not.
Mr.Ball. Have you ever met Julia Postal?
Mr.Carroll. No, sir; I never have.
Mr.Ball. And where was the lady when you talked to her?
Mr.Carroll. I didn't actually talk to her, sir, but when we went through the door, she just more or less—she just made a statement that he was upstairs, and as far as having any direct conversation with her, we did not. She said upstairs and we immediately went up to the balcony. All of the house lights were turned on.
Mr.Ball. You and Lyons went in the front door then?
Mr.Carroll. Yes, sir; and we went into the balcony and we had—or rather I had satisfied myself with the fact that he wasn't in the balcony.
Mr.Ball. Was there anyone in the balcony?
Mr.Carroll. Well, there were people sitting around there.
Mr.Ball. How did you satisfy yourself that he was in the balcony?
Mr.Carroll. Well, we went in and had more or less a vague idea—well, the people that I saw up in the balcony were either real young or older people and so we started backdown——
Mr.Ball. Had you had a description of the man you were looking for?
Mr.Carroll. They gave me a vague one on the telephone when I called and checked about the officer.
Mr.Ball. Who are "they"?
Mr.Carroll. Whoever was on duty at the dispatcher's office—I don't know who it was at that time.
Mr.Ball. What was the description that he gave you?
Mr.Carroll. He just gave a general height description and age—just generally.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what he said.
Mr.Carroll. I'm trying to recall now exactly—he gave the height and I can't recall now exactly how he said it—it's been so long ago, and it was all—I know he gave roughly, just a rough description. It wasn't a detailed description at all, and I'm trying to remember now exactly how he worded it.
Mr.Ball. Can you give me the approximate age—around?