The testimony of Linda Kay Willis was taken at 3:15 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and raise your right hand and I will swear you as a witness. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
MissWillis. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. As I told your father, I am an attorney for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy, and he has told me that you were with him in the vicinity of the School Book Depository Building at the time of the assassination, and I wanted to ask you two or three questions about that.
First of all, would you state your name for the reporter, please?
MissWillis. Linda Kay Willis.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are you?
MissWillis. I will be 15, July 29.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father has told us that you were out in front of the School Book Depository Building along with your sister on the day of the assassination, and your mother and father were also there, is that correct?
MissWillis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear any shots, or what you later learned to be shots, as the motorcade came past you there?
MissWillis. Yes; I heard one. Then there was a little bit of time, and then there were two real fast bullets together. When the first one hit, well, the President turned from waving to the people, and he grabbed his throat, and he kind of slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you were standing right along the curb on Elm Street, is that right, when the motorcade came by across the street from the School Book Depository Building?
MissWillis. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you follow the motorcade down Elm Street at all, or did you stand on the corner up toward Houston Street and watch from there?
MissWillis. I was right across from the sign that points to where Stemmons Expressway is. I was directly across when the first shot hit him.
Mr.Liebeler. Directly across from the sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway"?
MissWillis. I was right in line with the sign and the car, and I wasn't very far away from him, but I couldn't tell from where the shot came.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you just stay right there, or did you go on down Elm Street?
MissWillis. I stayed there. I was on the corner across from the courthouse when the motorcade first came down Main Street, and when it turned the corner on Houston, well, I followed along the street with the car, and then he turned the corner on Elm and I stood there where the Stemmons sign is.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see the President get hit in the head?
MissWillis. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You actually saw the President get hit that way?
MissWillis. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How far away would you say that you were when you saw that?
MissWillis. Oh, about twice as far as I am from here to this door. Maybe not quite that far.
Mr.Liebeler. About 25 feet or so?
MissWillis. About that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now when you saw the President get hit in the head, did you hear any more shots after that?
MissWillis. Yes; the first one, I heard the first shot come and then he slumped forward, and then I couldn't tell where the second shot went, and then the third one, and that was the last one that hit him in the head.
Mr.Liebeler. You only heard three shots altogether?
MissWillis. Yes; that was it.
Mr.Liebeler. So you don't think there were any more shots after he got hit in the head?
MissWillis. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you recognize the noises that you heard as shots right away?
MissWillis. No; when the first shot rang out, I thought, well, it's probably fireworks, because everybody is glad the President is in town. Then I realized it was too loud and too close to be fireworks, and then when I saw, when I realized that the President was falling over, I knew he had been hit. But I didn't know how badly.
Mr.Liebeler. Okay, I just wanted to ask you about whether you heard any shots after the President got hit in the head, and if you didn't hear any more shots, that is really all I wanted to ask you about. Thank you very much.
MissWillis. All right.
The testimony of Helen Markham was taken at 10 a.m., on July 23, 1364, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you stand and take the oath, please? Do you solemnly swear the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Markham. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler [spelling] L-i-e-b-e-l-e-r. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony for the Commission pursuant to authority granted it by the President in Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137. I think you are somewhat familiar with the proceedings of the Commission because you have already testified before the Commission in Washington; is that right?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; but you know, I don't know nothing about the Kennedys—President Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. I understand you were there when Oswald shot Officer Tippit?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Since you are familiar with the Commission's procedure, I'll just go right into your testimony. I wanted to ask you some questions about some of the things you told the Commission when you appeared before it on March 26, 1964, when Mr. Ball took your testimony before the Commission.
Mrs.Markham. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember at that time that Mr. Ball asked you the question, "Did you ever talk to a New York lawyer who said he was from New York?" And that you answered, "No, sir." Mr. Ball then asked you, "Did you ever talk to a lawyer who was investigating the case on behalf of the deceased man, Lee Oswald?" Your answer was, "No, sir." Mr. Ball asked, "Did you ever talk to a man who said he was representing the mother of Lee Oswald?" And you answered, "No, sir." And then Mr. Ball asked you, "You don't remember ever talking to a man named Mark Lane?" And then you answered, No, sir."
Mrs.Markham. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember giving that testimony at that time?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever talked to Mark Lane?
Mrs.Markham. No; I haven't—I haven't never seen the man in my life.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever talk to Mark Lane on the telephone?
Mrs.Markham. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And you remember that Congressman Ford specifically, and Mr. Dulles, asked you whether or not you had talked to Mark Lane on the telephone and you told them at that time that you had not talked to Mark Lane?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir; I have never seen the man. If he was to come in here, I wouldn't know who he was.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, aside from the fact you have never seen the man, you also told the Commission when you were in Washington that you had never talked to him over the telephone?
Mrs.Markham. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to Mark Lane over the telephone since you were in Washington, before today?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You have never talked to Mark Lane over the telephone?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir; no, sir. Now, the old lady, and they told me they were reporters, came to my house.
Mr.Liebeler. Right, but you have no recollection of ever talking to him yourself?
Mrs.Markham. I never even talked to her even.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, I'll tell you very frankly, that we have a tape recording of a conversation that purports to be a conversation between you and Mark Lane on the telephone and I have a transcript which we will mark as Markham Exhibit No.1——
Mrs.Markham. Let me tell younow——
Mr.Liebeler. I ask you to read the transcript and I will make arrangements—I hadn't thought you would be here until 1 o'clock this afternoon, so I don't have a tape recorder here, but I think I can have the Secret Service bring one over. Would you like to hear the tape, so you can tell us whether or not that is your voice?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me make arrangements then to have the Secret Service bring the tape recorder on over and we will see if it is your voice.
Mrs.Markham. I am going to tell you this, now, there was someone—let me tell you this—there was someone one day—this was all to me—I was scared, and I was, you know, frightened, and one day—now, this brings me back—the memories [referring to the transcript heretofore mentioned]. One day on my job there was someone that called, but he told me he was from the city.
Mr.Liebeler. From here in Dallas?
Mrs.Markham. That's right; the city hall down here, and this man told me he was—now, I can tell you what he told me he was—he said he was Captain Fritz—over this telephone—Capt. Will Fritz and I know you are familiar with him, maybe. Now, he said he was Captain Fritz with the police department of the city of Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, this transcript indicates that someone called a number, a telephone number—do you remember the telephone number at your office where you worked; were you working?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; I was working down here on Main Street.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know what the telephone down there is?
Mrs.Markham. No; I have really forgotten it, but it was over this office phone. It's a Riverside 8 number.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there such a number as Matthew 7-6797?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Or is there such a number as MA 7-6797, is there such a number as that that you know of?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. This transcript here indicates that some gentleman called this number here, Matthew 7-6797.
Mrs.Markham. My number at home is Whitehall and this number that I worked at was Riverside 8.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, I think what we should do is have the Secret Service bring a tape recorder here, because I want you to listen to this conversation, and if it is not your voice, we certainly want to know that.
Mrs.Markham. Sure, and this man—what this man told me—he told me hewas from the Dallas Police Department and he said it was concerning the Oswalds and they had to get a little more information from me.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, let me call the Secret Service.
Mrs.Markham. And listen, that was the only call that I know of. You see, I kept racking my brain thinking back, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. Why don't we suspend momentarily and as soon as the Secret Service man brings the tape recorder over here, which should be within a short time, a half an hour, we will play the tape.
Mrs.Markham. All right.
(At this point the proceedings were recessed and resumed at 11:40 a.m., as follows:)
Mr.Liebeler. This is Mr. John Joe Howlett with the Secret Service and he has brought over the tape recorder and has put the tape on it and we will continue with your deposition, Mrs. Markham. Mr. Howlett, with the U.S. Secret Service, will operate the tape recorder and I will ask you, Mrs. Markham, to listen to this conversation and tell us whether or not this is an accurate reflection of a conversation that you had over the telephone some time ago?
TheCourt Reporter. How much of this tape recording do you want on the record here?
Mr.Liebeler. I don't want any of this on the record now; however, I will give you, Mrs. Markham, a transcript of this telephone conversation to review and follow along, if you will. This memorandum consists of 29 pages appearing on the letterhead of the Federal Bureau of Investigation, dated July 16, 1964, and I want you to see if that is not in fact a transcript, a typed copy of what is on this tape.
Mrs.Markham. Yes; I'll watch this.
(At this point Mr. Howlett proceeded to play the tape recording of the telephone conversation heretofore referred to and when the witness, Mrs. Markham, began to indicate reactions to the recorded conversation, the reporter resumed recording same as hereinafter shown and the record here begins with the question and answer at the time Mrs. Markham began indicating her reactions.)
"Mr.Lane. I wonder if you would be good enough to tell me—I have your affidavit which you gave the police on that date.
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
"Mr.Lane. And I have read that, of course, and I wonder if you would be good enough to talk to me?"
Mr.Liebeler. You are shaking your head, as you listen to this tape recorder, Mrs. Markham.
John Joe, let's stop the recorder for a moment. What do you mean to indicate by that?
Mrs.Markham. I never talked to that man.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that not your voice on the tape?
Mrs.Markham. I can't tell about my voice, but that man—I never talked to no woman or no man like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, we will play the recording some more, and are you following it along, Mrs. Markham?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; I am right here.
Mr.Liebeler. And does this memorandum appear to be an accurate and exact transcript of the recording?
Mrs.Markham. That man—whoever that man is—I don't know, but it says, Mark Lane. No, sir—I'll tell the truth (raising right hand) and those words that he's saying—that's nothing like the telephone call I got—nothing.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's continue with the recording and see if you recognize your voice here on the tape.
"Mr.Lane. Tell me the description of the man whom you saw.
"Mrs.Markham. This is an office business phone and I just can't tell you that." I don't have the time to.
"Mr.Lane. Well, could you just give me one moment and tell me—I read where you told some of the reporters that he was short and stocky and had bushy hair.
"Mrs.Markham. No, no; I did not say that.
"Mr.Lane. You did not say that?
"Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
"Mr.Lane. Would you say that he was stocky?
"Mrs.Markham. He was short.
"Mr.Lane. He was short?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes.
"Mr.Lane. And was he a little on the heavy side?
"Mrs.Markham. Not too heavy.
"Mr.Lane. Not too heavy, but slightly heavy?
"Mrs.Markham. Well, he was—no—he didn't look too heavy.
"Mr.Lane. He wasn't too heavy and would you say that he had a rather bushy kind of hair?"
Mrs.Markham. Yes; that's my voice.
"Mrs.Markham. Yes; just a little bit bushy.
"Mr.Lane. It was a little bit bushy?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes.
"Mr.Lane. Yes. Was there anybody else around when you saw this happen?
"Mrs.Markham. No, sir; I didn't see anyone.
"Mr.Lane. There was no one else there. Did you ever have a chance to see Mr. Oswald when he was alive, I mean after he was arrested, did they bring you down to look at him?
"Mrs.Markham. I saw him on the lineup.
"Mr.Lane. Yes. Did he look anything like the man who shot Oswald?
"Mrs.Markham. I identified him.
"Mr.Lane. You identified him as the man who did shoot him. Did anyone point him out to you at that time as the man?
"Mrs.Markham. In the lineup?
"Mr.Lane. Yes.
"Mrs.Markham. No; they did not.
"Mr.Lane. Did they tell you who it might be?
"Mrs.Markham. They didn't tell me one thing.
"Mr.Lane. No. Do you recall what the gentleman was wearing who shot Officer Tippit?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
"Mr.Lane. How was he dressed?
"Mrs.Markham. He had on a light gray looking jacket.
"Mr.Lane. Yes.
"Mrs.Markham. Kind of dark trousers.
"Mr.Lane. Dark trousers?
"Mrs.Markham. Uh-huh.
"Mr.Lane. And did you see what color shirt?
"Mrs.Markham. No; I could not.
"Mr.Lane. The jacket was open or closed?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; it was zipped up a little bit—the neck was closed—pretty close too.
"Mr.Lane. Well, as I said, I have read your affidavit and it indicates the police car stopped and then this man walked over to it and leaned on it and placed his arms up against the car.
"Mrs.Markham. Up in the window.
"Mr.Lane. In the window?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes.
"Mr.Lane. You didn't see the police officer call him over, did you?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes; I seen the police car stop—I seen it all.
"Mr.Lane. I beg your pardon?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; I seen the police car stop.
"Mr.Lane. You heard the police car stop?
"Mrs.Markham. I seen it.
"Mr.Lane. You saw it stop and then Oswald or this gentleman, whoever it was, walked over to the car?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; he walked over to the car.
"Mr.Lane. You didn't see the officer call him over, though, did you?
"Mrs.Markham. He rolled down the window.
"Mr.Lane. He did what?
"Mrs.Markham. He rolled down his window.
"Mr.Lane. The officer rolled down the window?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes; uh-huh.
"Mr.Lane. Of course, you didn't put that in your affidavit.
"Mrs.Markham. Sir?
"Mr.Lane. That was not in your affidavit.
"Mrs.Markham. It should have been.
"Mr.Lane. It should have been—you told that to the officers?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; he had to have the window rolled down, because, you see, he leaned over in the window.
"Mr.Lane. I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?
"Mrs.Markham. I told them that at the scene of the murder.
"Mr.Lane. You told the officers the description?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
"Mr.Lane. Did you say that he was short and a little bit on the heavy side and had slightly bushy hair?
"Mrs.Markham. No; I did not. They didn't ask me that.
"Mr.Lane. They never asked you his description?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes; they asked what he was wearing.
"Mr.Lane. Just what he was wearing?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
"Mr.Lane. But they never asked you how he was built or anything like that?
"Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
"Mr.Lane. Well, you went to the police station where they took your affidavit, right?
"Mrs.Markham. Yes."
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you are shaking your head at this point.
Miss Reporter, you are taking the transcript down.
TheReporter. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, at this point you were shaking your head, what do you mean by that?
Mrs.Markham. This man—I have never talked with. This lady was never on the telephone. This man that called me like I told you, he told me he was from the city hall, the police department, the police department of the city hall.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, do you remember having this conversation with somebody?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; I do, but he told me he was from the police department of city hall and he had to get some information, a little more information from me. That was my boss that told me—the one that said, "Wait a minute," that was my boss, Mr. Sam Gambolus.
Mr.Liebeler. And you received this call at the place where you work?
Mrs.Markham. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember specifically that when the telephone calls started, that this man told you he was from the city hall of the police department?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; yes, sir; right. Because—you see—I had got a call from a man, but it was—I found out later, because the lady had called me back, it was from Mr. Tippit's sister, and I had told them that I couldn't talk, you know, I was busy on my job and this man told me that he was from the police department of the city hall and he had to get a little more information and it wouldn't take much of my time, and so I got permission from this boss, Mr. Gambolus, to talk with this man. Now, he told me that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did he tell you he was from the police department?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, on this tape recording right here, this man is asking you what the police did.
Mrs.Markham. I know it.
Mr.Liebeler. And he said they—the police took you and took your affidavit.
Mrs.Markham. That man—I have never talked to that man. I talked to a man that was supposed to have been from the police department of the city hall.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize this as the voice of the man you talked to?
Mrs.Markham. No; it is not.
Mr.Liebeler. This is not the same voice?
Mrs.Markham. No.
Mr.Liebeler. How do you explain the fact that the woman's voice on this tape recording is your voice?
Mrs.Markham. I never heard that.
Mr.Liebeler. You never heard the man's voice before?
Mrs.Markham. And I never heard this lady's voice before—this is the first time.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any doubt in your mind at all that the lady's voice on the tape now is your voice?
Mrs.Markham. It is my voice, but this man told me he was from the city police.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it occur to you as you were talking to him—when he said, for example, on the tape here just a few minutes ago, did you tell the officers—you told this person you were talking to on this tape that you saw the police car stop and that this man walked over to the car and that the officer had rolled the window down and this man's voice said you did not put in the affidavit that you had seen the officer roll the window down.
Mrs.Markham. Man, I have never heard such a thing as this.
Mr.Liebeler. At the bottom of page 6 he says, "I see. Now, did you tell the officers at the police station, when they questioned you, the description of the man who shot Tippit?"
You couldn't have thought he was from the police department if he was asking you what you were telling the police before—do you agree with me?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; but he told me he was from the police department and he had to get some information from me and I wanted to get back to my work.
Mr.Liebeler. So, it is your testimony that even though you engaged in this conversation here, the man—when he started out, he told you that he was from the police department; is that right?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; I wouldn't have never talked to this man. Just like if I get a telephone call I say, "You know where I am at, come down to see me." He told me he was from the police department and this lady never talked to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Which lady is that?
Mrs.Markham. On this tape.
Mr.Liebeler. Which lady on the tape?
Mrs.Markham. It was a woman talking.
Mr.Liebeler. The lady's voice that was talking on the tape here?
Mrs.Markham. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I thought that was your voice?
Mrs.Markham. Not at the first there.
Mr.Liebeler. Not at the first—you mean the telephone operator, the one that was the telephone operator? The tape here indicates that the long-distance telephone operator or some telephone operator called you to the telephone and a man answered the telephone.
Mrs.Markham. No; my boss called me to the telephone.
Mr.Liebeler. So, when you came to the telephone it was this man on the telephone and he told you that he was from the police department?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And then you engaged in this telephone conversation?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; he certainly did.
Mr.Liebeler. So that, in fact, your testimony is that you had never had anybody introduce themselves to you as Mark Lane?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you haven't talked to him over the telephone?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir; and so help me [raising right hand] I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any doubt, however, that you did engage in this particular conversation, except that you are having trouble at the beginning and end of it because you said that the man told you that he was from the police department when he called?
Mrs.Markham. Yes, sir; he certainly did. I know he did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell anybody that this man who shot Officer Tippit was short and stocky and had bushy hair?
Mrs.Markham. No. [Handed instruments to Mr. Liebeler.]
Mr.Liebeler. You have brought a couple of pieces of paper here that you want me to look at?
Mrs.Markham. Please—this here doesn't make sense and let me show you—I don't know what to think about it, but I got this, but my daughter wouldn't let me have it because I was very upset at the time and I don't know what it even means.
Mr.Liebeler. Let the record show that the witness has handed me a piece of paper, a single sheet of paper enclosed in an envelope of the Statler-Hilton Hotel in Dallas and postmarked Dallas, Tex., July 11, 1964, and addressed to Mrs. Helen Markham at 328 East Ninth Street in Dallas, and the letter has a return address of P.O. Box 2897, Dallas 21, Tex. It is dated July 10, 1964, and it is addressed to Mrs. Markham and it says, "At your convenience, would you kindly call me Saturday or any weekday morning between 9 a.m. and 12 noon. I would like the opportunity of discussing a matter which I believe will be mutually profitable. Sincerely, James Kerr."
We will mark the envelope and the letter as Markham Deposition Exhibit No. 2. I have marked the letter as indicated and I have put my initials on it and would you put your initials on it, Mrs. Markham, so we don't have any trouble identifying it in the future.
Mrs.Markham. Just my initials?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; just your initials.
(Mrs. Markham initials instrument referred to.)
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you ever call this Mr. Kerr?
Mrs.Markham. Now, where at—there wasn't no telephone or nothing. It gives a post office box is all I saw.
Mr.Liebeler. You never looked the telephone number up in the book or anything like that?
Mrs.Markham. No; I didn't. There are so many Kerrs—you never know who it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, the envelope has the telephone listing on it—RI 9-3195; did you notice that?
Mrs.Markham. Well, I called that number off of that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whose number that is?
Mrs.Markham. No; I believe it was either the police department—I don't know, but I called.
Mr.Liebeler. You also have a telegram you want me to look at?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; I do.
Mr.Liebeler. You never did talk to this Mr. Kerr; is that right?
Mrs.Markham. No, sir; that's all I've gotten. I want you to see what you think about that.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness has produced a telegram dated July 21, apparently 1964, and addressed to her, which reads as follows:
"Dear Mrs. Markham:
"The United States Information Agency is preparing a televised report on the findings of the Warren Commission.
"To aid us in our objectives, we have requested the on-camera presence of President Johnson, the Commission members and selected witnesses who have given testimony here in Washington. We would like to request your cooperation in appearing on our program. In our opinion, your presence and perhaps a statement of your feeling and of your feelings in truthful note and fashion will serve to alleviate the tension and misgivings following the death of Officer Tippit and, of course, the other Dallas tragedies. I would be most anxious to have your reaction and will contact you personally concerning our request.
"I look forward to talking with you.
"Sincerely, Buck Richard Pennington, Producer, Television Service U.S. Information Agency, Washington 25, D.C., phone Worth 2-0319."
When did you receive this?
Mrs.Markham.Well——
Mr.Howlett. Just a moment, I talked to Mrs. Markham about this—she called me on the telephone about that. The U.S. Information Agency is a legitimate Government organization and they are planning to do this. They have contacted us to assist them in the location of some witnesses and we checked with our office in Washington and they came back and told us it was a legitimate venture, but we were, the Secret Service, was engaged with the Commission and that we wouldn't be able to help, but it is supposed to be a legitimate operation.
Mr.Liebeler. So, you have discussed this with Agent Howlett, is that right, as he indicated?
Mrs.Markham. Now, this man—Buck Pennington?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Markham. He called me right after I got this telegram and whatever you think—he wanted me to come up there Monday or Tuesday. Do you think it would be all right?
Mr.Liebeler. Well, neither one of us is in a position to give you any advice on that at all, Mrs. Markham.
Mrs.Markham. Well, who do I go to? I don't want to do something wrong. I've done talked to somebody, I didn't know who I was talking to.
Mr.Liebeler. I suggest you write a little note to Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission's staff in Washington and ask him what he thinks you should do.
Mrs.Markham. Would you write that address down?
Mr.Liebeler. Would you give her that address, Joe? Afterward.
Mr.Howlett. That's Mr. Rankin's address in Washington?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Markham. I don't know if it would be all right to go up there and do that or not.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, why don't you write to Mr. Rankin and he will handle that aspect of it.
Now, I want to mark this transcript, Mrs. Markham, and we have listened to the tape—not all the way through, but part of the way through, to about page 6, and you followed it through to that extent, have you not?
Mrs.Markham. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are satisfied that to the extent we have listened to the tape, that it is accurately set forth in this memorandum?
Mrs.Markham. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that correct?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; but that man is wrong. Why would anybody want to do anything like that?
Mr.Liebeler. Would you put your initials on that memorandum, please?
Mrs.Markham. Yes; may I use a pencil?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Markham. I just wrote Markham down there.
Mr.Liebeler. All right. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham. I don't have any other questions at this time.
Mrs.Markham. Well, that just worries me.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, we will have to do further investigation into this.
Mrs.Markham. Because he told me he was from the police department. It never dawned on me. You know, I was in a hurry to get back because I was going to get fired if I didn't get back.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you very much, Mrs. Markham.
Mrs.Markham. Well, will I get in any trouble over this?
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think so, Mrs. Markham. I wouldn't worry about it. I don't think anybody is going to cause you any trouble over that [referring to the telegram].
Mrs.Markham. That was dirty in that man doing that.
Mr.Liebeler. Pardon?
Mrs.Markham. That was dirty in that man doing that.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, I would think that's right.
Mrs.Markham. Well, he's not no better than Oswald—that's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you, Mrs. Markham, very much.
The testimony of Mrs. Donald Baker was taken at 11:50 a.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Before you sit down, will you raise your right hand and please take the oath? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Baker. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Baker, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress No. 137. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present and you are entitled to 3 days' notice of the hearing. You don't have to answer any questions that you think would violate any of your constitutional rights. I presume from the nature of the testimony that we are going to ask you about that you don't want your attorney present and that you are willing to proceed with the testimony at this point; is that correct?
Mrs.Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name for the record, please?
Mrs.Baker. Mrs. Donald Baker.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been married since the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs.Baker. February 1, 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. You were married on February 1, 1963?
Mrs.Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you Virgie Rachley or is that somebody else?
Mrs.Baker. That's me.
Mr.Liebeler. How come I have your name as Virgie Rachley and also Mrs. Donald S. Baker?
Mrs.Baker. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, I have a report from the FBI that is dated November 24, 1963, and they refer to you as Virgie Rachley in that report, but you had already been married at that time; is that correct?
Mrs.Baker. I married this year.
Mr.Liebeler. Oh, February of 1964?
Mrs.Baker. This is 1964—I'm sorry.
Mr.Liebeler. That's right. Now, we've got it. You were Virgie Rachley on November 24, 1963, and you were married in February 1964.
Mrs.Baker. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Liebeler. I understand that you were employed at the time of the assassination as a bookkeeper at the Texas School Book Depository; is that correct?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long had you worked there?
Mrs.Baker. Well, I have been there since July 16, 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. Last year?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever meet Lee Harvey Oswald or have occasion to see him while you were employed at the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Baker. I had seen him.
Mr.Liebeler. You had seen him?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you ever said anything to him or talked to him at all?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any impression of him just from seeing him around the building?
Mrs.Baker. Just that he was awful quiet.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than that, did you form any impression of him at all?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me what happened on the 22d of November in connection with the motorcade, would you please, what you saw and what you did?
Mrs.Baker. Well, we came out of the building across the street at approximately 12 or 12:15 and we stood out in front, directly in front of the Depository Building and as the motorcade came by the President waved and he gotdown——
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you standing at this point, at the time the motorcade came along?
Mrs.Baker. Well, there is a divisional line—I don't know exactly what you would call it—the little part of the street that runs in front of the Depository and then there is—I don't know what you would call it—the grassy stuff that comes out to form the plaza along the front.
Mr.Liebeler. You say there is a little street that runs immediately in front of the School Book Depository Building; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know if that street has a name or not?
Mrs.Baker. I'm sure it doesn't—I have never seen one.
Mr.Liebeler. And then after that little street that runs right in front of the Depository Building, there is a little strip of grass with some trees on it; is that correct?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And then comes Elm Street; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And on the other side of Elm Street there is a sort of a triangular plot of grass.
Mrs.Baker. I guess you could say we were standing just at the edge of Elm Street at the side of the Depository because we were out almost in the street—Elm Street.
Mr.Liebeler. Elm Street is separated from another street that runs down through the triple underpass. Do you know the name of that street that runs right down here—I am showing you Commission Exhibit No. 354, an aerial view of the street that runs by and three streets converge and go under the railroad tracks and that's the triple underpass.
Mrs.Baker. I think that goes out to Stemmons Expressway or leads into Stemmons Expressway.
Mr.Liebeler. The street that runs right down through here, the middle, is that Main Street?
Mrs.Baker. That would be Main Street and this one would be Commerce.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, can you point to me approximately where you were standing?
Mrs.Baker. Let me find the building here—it would be right here—we were standing right at the edge, approximately directly in front of the building or at the edge of the building; we were standing right here.
Mr.Liebeler. So, you were standing directly in front of the Texas School Book Depository Building and on the same side of Elm Street that the Texas School Book Depository is located?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me what you saw?
Mrs.Baker. Well, after he passed us, then we heard a noise and I thought it was firecrackers, because I saw a shot or something hit the pavement.
Mr.Liebeler. And you heard that immediately after the first noise; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you tell or did you have any idea where the noise came from when you first heard it?
Mrs.Baker. No; I thought there were some boys standing down there where he was—where the President's car was.
Mr.Liebeler. Down farther on the street, you mean?
Mrs.Baker. Yes; close to the underpass.
Mr.Liebeler. Had the President's car already passed you at the time you heard the first noise?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me approximately how far down the street it had gone when you heard the first shot?
Mrs.Baker. I don't know exactly—I could still see the back of the car—I can't judge distance so I really couldn't tell you.
Mr.Liebeler. It hadn't gone out of sight in your opinion?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you still see the President?
Mrs.Baker. Not too well.
Mr.Liebeler. There is a gradual curve on Elm Street and the car had already started slightly into the curve by the time it had gone by you?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You say you saw something hit the street after you heard the first shot; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you see it hit the street?
Mrs.Baker. Have you got that—can you see the signs on that picture there?
Mr.Liebeler. Well, you can't see the signs too well on that picture, which is Commission Exhibit No. 354, but I will show you some other pictures here on which the signs do appear. First of all, let me show you Hudson Exhibit No. 1 on which appears a sign that says, "Stemmons Freeway, Keep Right."
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you see that sign?
Mrs.Baker. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The Stemmons Freeway sign from where you were standing?
Mrs.Baker. No; I couldn't see the sign because I was angled—we were stepping out in the street then and it was approximately along in here, I presume, the first sign—I don't know which one it is, but I saw the bullet hit on down this way, I guess, right at the sign, angling out.
Mr.Liebeler. You think the bullet hit the street, only it was farther out in the street?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Even though you couldn't see the sign, you could see this thing hit the street near the sign?
Mrs.Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. It appears to me from looking at Commission Exhibit No. 354, that you can in fact make out where the signs are located along the side of the road and let's see if these do look like the signs. Now, as you come down Elm Street past the place you were standing going toward the triple underpass, there is a tree here on this little grassy triangular spot that is on the side of Elm Street toward the Texas School Book Depository Building, right on Dealey Plaza here by this concrete structure. Then, after the tree, going on down toward the triple underpass, it appears in the aerial photograph—a spot that looks like a sign or a shadow—it looks like a sign to me.
Mrs.Baker. There is a sign there.
Mr.Liebeler. And then there's another sign farther on down there.
Mrs.Baker. This was a big sign here and there was a small one here.
Mr.Liebeler. And you think that it was approximately near the first sign?
Mrs.Baker. As I can remember, it was.
Mr.Liebeler. As you went down Elm Street that you saw this thing hit the street—what did it look like when you saw it?
Mrs.Baker. Well, as I said, I thought it was a firecracker. It looked just like you could see the sparks from it and I just thought it was a firecracker and I was thinking that there was somebody was fixing to get in a lot of trouble and we thought the kids or whoever threw it were down below or standing near the underpass or back up here by the sign.
Mr.Liebeler. Would they have been as far down as the underpass or somewhere near the sign to have thrown a firecracker in the street?
Mrs.Baker. It was near the signs.
Mr.Liebeler. How close to the curb on Elm Street was this thing you sawhit; do you remember? It would have been on the curb side—near the curb side away from the Texas School Book Depository Building on the opposite side of the street; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How close to the opposite curb do you think it was?
Mrs.Baker. It was approximately in the middle of the lane—I couldn't be quite sure, but I thought it was in the middle or somewhere along in there. I could even be wrong about that but I could have sworn it that day.
Mr.Liebeler. You thought it was sort of toward the middle of the lane?
Mrs.Baker. Toward the middle of the lane.
Mr.Liebeler. Of the left-hand lane going toward the underpass; is that correct?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where was the thing that you saw hit the street in relation to the President's car? I mean, was it in front of the car, behind his car, by the side of his car or was it close to the car?
Mrs.Baker. I thought it was—well—behind it.
Mr.Liebeler. Had the car already gone by when you saw this thing hit in the street?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether it hit toward the left-hand side or the right-hand side of the President's car, or was it just immediately behind it? If you can't remember it that closely, all right.
Mrs.Baker. I can't remember it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you actually see the President get hit by any bullets?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. How many shots did you hear?
Mrs.Baker. Three.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first become aware that they were shots?
Mrs.Baker. With the second shot.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any idea where they were coming from?
Mrs.Baker. Well, the way it sounded—it sounded like it was coming from—there was a railroad track that runs behind the building—there directly behind the building and around, so I guess it would be by the underpass, the triple underpass, and there is a railroad track that runs back out there and there was a train that looked like a circus train as well as I can remember now, back there, and we all ran to the plaza—the little thing there I guess you call it a plaza—back behind there—this other girl and I almost ran back over there and looked and we didn't see anything.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say the plaza, you mean Dealey Plaza, the area that lies between Elm Street and this little street that runs by the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that correct? Is that what you mean?
Mrs.Baker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. After you heard the shots, you ran down the little street that runs in front of the School Book Depository?
Mrs.Baker. Along the grass.
Mr.Liebeler. Along the grass—alongside there, running toward the triple underpass where Elm Street goes, but you were actually running down the little street or alongside the street on the grass, alongside the street that runs right in front of the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you say there are some railroad tracks back in there; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Immediately behind Dealey Plaza away from Elm Street?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And is that where you thought the shots came from?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And when you went down there and looked, did you see anybody at all?
Mrs.Baker. Just a policeman and several people were down there around the tracks working.
Mr.Liebeler. But you didn't see anybody you thought might have been the assassin?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you have subsequently heard, I'm sure, and from reading in the newspapers and one thing and another, that it appears that the shots actually came from the Texas School Book Depository Building; is that right?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Does that seem possible to you in view of what you heard at the time?
Mrs.Baker. Well, I guess it might have been the wind, but to me it didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. The sounds you heard at the time did not appear to come from the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you look up at the Texas School Book Depository Building at all while you were standing there?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. So, you had no occasion to see anybody in any of the windows in that building?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. According to the FBI report of the interview that you gave them on November 24, you said that just after the shooting some man who had been sitting on a wall directly across the street from you came up and said he saw everything; is that so?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever find out what that man's name was?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir; I did not. I didn't see him after that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what he had seen?
Mrs.Baker. No; I don't remember—he came over—I don't know when he came over now, but he told us he had seen everything—it might have been later that afternoon. I think it was—I think it was later that afternoon.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you where he had been, where he could see all this?
Mrs.Baker. He said he was sitting on that wall.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, when you say "that wall" I show you again Commission Exhibit No. 354.
Mrs.Baker. This wall here [indicating].
Mr.Liebeler. Are you referring to a wall that is on the triangular spot formed by Elm Street and Main Street and across Elm Street from the Texas School Book Depository Building? And on Commission Exhibit No. 354; that area has some ink marks on it around part of it?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this man tell you exactly where on the wall he had been sitting?
Mrs.Baker. No; I presume it was on this high wall here—it sticks up real high—I presume he was up there on top.
Mr.Liebeler. You have indicated the part of the wall that faces toward the triple underpass down toward where Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce all come together?
Mrs.Baker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, there has been some speculation that perhaps the shots might have come from right off the triple overpass, from the railroad tracks that go up over the top, were you able to see these railroad tracks at the time from where you were standing down here—when I say, "Down here," I mean the railroad tracks that actually go over Elm Street and Main Street and Commerce.
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You could not see that?
Mrs.Baker. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the shots sound like they had come from that area, or did they sound like they had come from the area more around toward the Texas School Book Depository Building and behind Dealey Plaza?