Mr.Ball. Did you talk to Whaley?
Mr.Dhority. No; I did not.
Mr.Ball. Was there a cab driver there named Scoggins [spelling] S-c-o-g-g-i-n-s also?
Mr.Dhority. I believe there was—there was two cabdrivers there and I know Mr. Alexander, down at the district attorney's office, told us they identified him.
Mr.Ball. Did Whaley ever tell you he identified him?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you take an affidavit from Whaley?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, were you present at some time on the 24th when Oswald was in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That would be Sunday, November 24.
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Tell us about what you did that day, on the 24th of November.
Mr.Dhority. Well, on—I went up to jail along with Leavelle and Graves and got him and brought him down to Captain Fritz' office that morning.
Mr.Ball. Who was present in Captain Fritz' office that day?
Mr.Dhority. Well, Captain Fritz and Mr. Kelley and Mr. Sorrels.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Sorrels of the Secret Service?
Mr.Dhority. And Mr. Holmes.
Mr.Ball. And Holmes is what?
Mr.Dhority. Of the Post Office Department.
Mr.Ball. What time did you bring him into Fritz' office?
Mr.Dhority. About 9:30 in the morning.
Mr.Ball. What time did you leave there?
Mr.Dhority. Oh, I imagine it was shortly after 11 o'clock when Captain Fritz gave me the keys to his car and told me to go get it down there in front of the jail office to move Oswald down to the County in.
Mr.Ball. What was said there in Fritz' office that day—do you remember any of the conversations?
Mr.Dhority. There was a lot of conversation.
Mr.Ball. What did they talk about—the people in there?
Mr.Dhority. Well, they were talking to Oswald and Mr. Kelley talked to him and Mr. Sorrels talked to him—I don't think Mr. Holmes talked to him too much. I think he recorded most of the interviews, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what was said?
Mr.Dhority. I couldn't remember all that was said.
Mr.Ball. Did you make any notes?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Was your deposition taken before?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. By Mr. Hubert?
Mr.Dhority. I don't know—it was some FBI man, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. But you weren't sworn under oath, just your statement?
Mr.Dhority. Yes; I wasn't sworn under oath—no, sir.
Mr.Ball. After they questioned Oswald, what did you do?
Mr.Dhority. Well, I believe we gave him a sweater to put on. I think it was kind of cool—one of his sweaters.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed?
Mr.Dhority. Yes; Leavelle handcuffed himself to Oswald just before I left the office.
Mr.Ball. Had he been handcuffed during the questioning in Fritz' office that morning?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall—I didn't have my handcuffs on him.
Mr.Ball. Just before you left the office, Leavelle handcuffed him—did he put one cuff on Oswald and one on Leavelle; is that it?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Fritz gave you instructions to do what?
Mr.Dhority. He gave me the keys to his car and told me to go down and get his car and back it up front of the jail door to put Oswald in.
Mr.Ball. Is that what you did?
Mr.Dhority. I went downstairs and got his car, unlocked his car, and was in the process of backing it up there—in fact—I was just about ready to stop, when Captain Fritz came out and Leavelle and Oswald and Graves and Johnson and Montgomery came out the jail door.
Captain Fritz reached over to the door of the car and I was turned around to see—backing it up—still had the car moving it along and I saw someone run across the end of the car real rapid like. At first, I thought it was somebody going to take a picture and then I saw a hand come out and I heard the shot.
Mr.Ball. Graves and Leavelle were there beside Oswald, were they?
Mr.Dhority. Yes; beside Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Oswald was between Graves and Leavelle?
Mr.Dhority. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Any questions?
Mr.Ely. Yes, I have one or two.
I would like to go back if I can to these lineups. You say you were present at three of them and I have taken one by one—the first one was at 6:36 p.m. on Friday, the one where Mr. McWatters identified Oswald. Did you at that time observe the men who were lined up with Oswald?
Mr.Dhority. No; I didn't pay any attention to them, really.
Mr.Ely. Do you have any recollection of how their size and appearance compared with Oswald?
Mr.Dhority. No; I didn't study it.
Mr.Ely. And you don't remember what they were wearing either?
Mr.Dhority. I sure don't.
Mr.Ely. Do you remember anything unusual about Oswald's behavior at that lineup, did he make a lot of noise, or did he behave just like at the other three, as far as you can remember?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall.
Mr.Ely. Now, do you remember how Mr. McWatters indicated his choice, in other words, did he do it in such a way that the other people present could hear who he was choosing?
Mr.Dhority. No; he did not—it was very low.
Mr.Ely. He said it to you, but he said it quietly so that they couldn't hear?
Mr.Dhority. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ely. What about the other two people, did they indicate their choices out loud, or did they also indicate them quietly?
Mr.Dhority. It was also quietly.
Mr.Ely. In other words, none of the men could hear what the other two were saying?
Mr.Dhority. No.
Mr.Ely. Now, the lineup where Jeannette Davis made the identification, didyou observe anything about the appearance or clothing of the other men in that lineup?
Mr.Dhority. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ely. Do you remember how Jeanette and Virginia Davis indicated their choices to you?
Mr.Dhority. Just standing there by them—very quietly told me.
Mr.Ely. In more or less the same procedure as the other one?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ely. Did Oswald do anything unusual at that lineup?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall anything unusual.
Mr.Ely. And the one Saturday morning with Mr. Whaley—I realize you didn't participate in this one, but you were present. Do you not remember anything about that?
Mr.Dhority. I don't recall anything unusual about it at all—I sure don't.
Mr.Ely. Do you remember whether at that one Oswald was yelling about something?
Mr.Dhority. It seems like that at that one he shook his hands up and made some comment about being handcuffed. Of course, they were all handcuffed—it was something like that—I can't recall for sure, but as far as any outburst or anything like that, I don't recall anything like that.
Mr.Ely. Now, your report states that you were present in Captain Fritz' office Friday evening when the paraffin casts were made. Could you estimate from what time to what time you were in Fritz' office on Friday evening?
Mr.Dhority. I sure don't have any idea.
Mr.Ely. Do you know about how long you were there?
Mr.Dhority. I sure don't.
Mr.Ely. Was it just while they were having the paraffin tests?
Mr.Dhority. Yes.
Mr.Ely. Were you there for any of the interrogation of Friday evening?
Mr.Dhority. No.
Mr.Ely. None at all?
Mr.Dhority. No.
Mr.Ely. Is it correct that you were at the police station until 2 a.m. on Saturday morning, is that what time you went home?
Mr.Dhority. That sounds about right.
Mr.Ely. Do you know what time Oswald was checked into the jail on Friday night?
Mr.Dhority. I sure don't.
Mr.Ely. You had nothing to do with it, taking him up there?
Mr.Dhority. No.
Mr.Ely. How would you characterize Oswald's behavior on Sunday morning when you were present in Fritz' office? Was he at that time—did he seem calm or excited?
Mr.Dhority. Very calm.
Mr.Ely. Did he seem fatigued to you, or did he seem to be about the same?
Mr.Dhority. He was very calm and fresh.
Mr.Ely. Just one more thing I would like to cover and that is the conditions in the police station surrounding Fritz' office, I mean, special with regard to newspapermen being present—were the corridors filled with newspapermen—do you recall how much of a crowd was there?
Mr.Dhority. When?
Mr.Ely. Well, let's say when you were there on Friday evening.
Mr.Dhority. They were so thick you couldn't walk through them. You had to shove your way through them to get in and out of the office. There wasn't any in the office at all, but from the elevator to the office, cameras and lights were set up so thick you just had to work your way through.
Mr.Ely. All right, Mr. Ball, I don't believe I have anything else.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Dhority, this will be written up.
Mr.Dhority. The only other thing that I had to do with that that we didn't go into—now, I rode in the ambulance with Oswald to the hospital.
Mr.Ball. Did he say anything?
Mr.Dhority. Well, I held his pulse all the way out there. It was very, veryweak all the way and as we was turning into the hospital, the only time he showed any signs of life and he started a muscle reactionthen——
Mr.Ball. He was unconscious, was he?
Mr.Dhority. He was unconscious all the time, and when he went into the operating room, Detective Graves went in with him there and Captain Fritz left and told me to arrange for the security of Oswald in the hospital, and I was talking to Mr. Price, who is the administrator of the hospital, and we were looking over a wing, when we got word that he was dead, so I went back then and contacted Captain Fritz by 'phone and then got Oswald's clothing and had Oswald's mother and wife look at Oswald's body and then carried him to the morgue where I got Dr. Rose to photograph him with color pictures before he did the autopsy.
Mr.Ball. Now, this will all be written up and it will be submitted to you if you wish, and you can read it over and correct it and sign it if you want to, or you have the option to waive your signature, and in which event this young lady will write it up and send it on to the Commission.
Mr.Dhority. Well, I will just waive my signature.
Mr.Ball. All right. Fine. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Richard M. Sims was taken at 10:20 a.m., on April 6, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Messrs. Joseph A. Ball, John Hart Ely, and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Dr. Alfred Goldberg, historian, was present.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand up and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you will give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Sims. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Sims. Richard M. Sims.
Mr.Ball. And what is your business or occupation?
Mr.Sims. Police department, city of Dallas.
Mr.Ball. And what is your position with the police department?
Mr.Sims. Detective in the homicide and robbery bureau since August 2, 1948.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and educated and what you have done before you went with the police department?
Mr.Sims. I was born and raised here in Dallas and I went to school—grade school in Dallas, but moved out to a little city called Hutchins, south of Dallas, and finished my education out there, and joined the Navy when I was 17, and was discharged when I was 21, and I came to work down here when I was 23.
Mr.Ball. With the police department?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you have been with them ever since?
Mr.Sims. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you have been with homicide how long?
Mr.Sims. Since September 1957.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, what were your hours of duty?
Mr.Sims. Well, actually, my hours of duty were from 4 to midnight, but because the President was going to be in Dallas, I came to work early because we was assigned with Captain Fritz to be down at the Trade Mart when the President arrived.
Mr.Ball. What time did you go to the Trade Mart?
Mr.Sims. It was around 10 o'clock, I believe.
Mr.Ball. In the morning?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; 10 a.m.—Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you heard the President had been shot?
Mr.Sims. We were at the President's table. Chief Stevenson called Captain Fritz over and told him the President had been involved in an accident.
Mr.Ball. That was about what time of day?
Mr.Sims. That was about 12:40, I believe, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Sims. Chief Stevenson told us to go to the hospital. Parkland Hospital, so we did.
Mr.Ball. Whom did you go with?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I, and I drove.
Mr.Ball. Captain Fritz is the head of homicide squadron, isn't he?
Mr.Sims. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And Boyd is your partner?
Mr.Sims. Yes; Boyd is my partner since 1957.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do over there when you got to Parkland?
Mr.Sims. Well, we arrived at Parkland and we saw that Chief Curry was there in front of the hospital, so he directed us back to the Depository Store, down to the Book Store.
Mr.Ball. Tell me this—what did he say—what did he tell you to do?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember the exact words, but he told us to go back to the store at the triple underpass—I don't remember what it was—I couldn't say for sure.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody tell you at that time that there had been anyone in the Texas Depository Book Building that had done the shooting?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I think at that time it was strictly speculation from where the shot had been fired.
Mr.Ball. He just told you to go back to the scene of the shooting?
Mr.Sims. Yes—as I said, I couldn't say for sure.
Mr.Ball. Did you go back there—back to Elm and Houston?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; we went directly to the Book Store and Sheriff Bill Decker rode back with us.
Mr.Ball. And you went right to the building?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; and pulled up in front of it there—in front of the building.
Mr.Ball. On the way back, did you hear anything over the radio?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; we heard them mention the Book Store.
Mr.Ball. What did they say—what did you hear?
Mr.Sims. Well, now, I don't know.
Mr.Ball. You heard something about it?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; we went there for some reason—I know that.
Mr.Ball. Was it something you heard over the radio that directed you to go there?
Mr.Sims. We went directly to the store and parked there in front.
Mr.Ball. What did you do after that?
Mr.Sims. Well, we took our rifles out of the car and shotgun, and proceeded to the building, went in the building.
Mr.Ball. What door of the building did you go in?
Mr.Sims. The front door.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd and I.
Mr.Ball. Could you tell me about what time you got to the building?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; I got it here—about 12:58—about 1 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. The radio log of that day at 12:36 shows that the following was broadcast from the police radio log: "The witness says shots came from the fifth floor of the Texas Book Depository Store at Houston and Elm. I have him with me now and we are sealing off the building."
Do you think you heard that?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I wouldn't have heard that. We didn't hear about the shooting until 12:40, but we had to have heard something or we wouldn't have went directly to the Book Store like we did.
Mr.Ball. At 12:45, there was a broadcast that stated: "All the information we have received indicates it did come from the fifth floor of that building."
"Which building?"
"The Texas Depository Building at Elm and Houston."
Do you know whether you could have heard that?
Mr.Sims. Well, our radio was on—I could have heard, that; yes, sir. We got to the hospital, I guess, about that time and we did have our radio on.
Mr.Ball. When you went in the front door, who was with you?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz, Boyd, and I.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go?
Mr.Sims. We went directly to the elevator.
Mr.Ball. Which elevator?
Mr.Sims. The main passenger elevator.
Mr.Ball. It was a freight elevator, wasn't it?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I think the passenger elevator goes to about the third floor and then the freight elevator takes over.
Mr.Ball. You went up in the passenger elevator in the front of the building?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And you went as far as it could go, did you?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did you do then?
Mr.Sims. Then, we caught the freight elevator.
Mr.Ball. That would be in another part of the building?
Mr.Sims. Yes; I think it's on the north end of the building.
Mr.Ball. Did somebody direct you where to go to get the freight elevator?
Mr.Sims. I believe—I'm not positive whether they did or not.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go from there?
Mr.Sims. Well, we got off on the third floor and there were officers there, so we went all the way up and we started to the seventh floor, actually, and there was officers on every floor as we went up.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go first?
Mr.Sims. Well, we stopped at the second floor, first.
Mr.Ball. Now, were you on the elevator at that time?
Mr.Sims. No, sir—it was full of officers.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who some of the officers were?
Mr.Sims. Yes; I don't know which ones I can remember, but Lieutenant Revill was there, I believe.
Mr.Ball. At 2:35, you mentioned two officers.
Mr.Sims. Lieutenant Revill and Detective Westphal was over there with us.
Mr.Ball. Are they with homicide?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; they are with the special service bureau.
Mr.Ball. What is the special service bureau?
Mr.Sims. Well, it's a combination of vice, narcotics, and undercover work.
Mr.Ball. Now, you got, you said, up to the third floor?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go then?
Mr.Sims. Well, let's see, we got off—we stopped at the second floor and went to the third floor and some officer there had a key to a room and we made a hurried search of it and there was a bunch of officers on that floor and we went on to the fourth floor, and I don't know if we got off at the fourth or not, but anyway, we got off at the seventh floor—each floor as we passed would have officers on it, and we hadn't been on the seventh floor very long—for just a while—until someone hollered that they had found the hulls on the sixth floor, so we went back to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. Someone on the seventh floor told you they had found the hulls?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; someone hollered from the sixth floor that the hulls had been found.
Mr.Ball. And you could hear them?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; you could hear them.
Mr.Ball. Did you go down the stairway?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; we went back down the elevator, as well as I remember.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go when you got off of the elevator?
Mr.Sims. We may have had to climb the stairs from six to seven—I don't remember how high that elevator goes. I know we went back to the sixth floor.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go when you got off at the sixth floor?
Mr.Sims. We went over to the corner window there.
Mr.Ball. Which corner?
Mr.Sims. It would be the one on Houston and Elm, that corner there—it would be the southeast corner.
Mr.Ball. It was the southeast corner?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you see?
Mr.Sims. We saw the boxes stacked up about—I don't know—three or four stacks high and found three empty hulls laying there next to the wall of the Elm Street side of the building, the front of the building.
Mr.Ball. Who was there when you saw them?
Mr.Sims. Well, there was two or three officers was there when we got there, and I believe the officer that found them was still there. I have his name here someplace.
Mr.Ball. Was he a deputy sheriff?
Mr.Sims. Yes, he was a deputy sheriff.
Mr.Ball. And who else—Luke Mooney?
Mr.Sims. Yes—there was two or three officers there besides us—I don't know who all.
Mr.Ball. And did Luke tell you whether or not he had moved the hulls or not?
Mr.Sims. He said he had left them like he had found them.
Mr.Ball. Did you take a picture of those hulls?
Mr.Sims. Lieutenant Day did, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Was he there right at the time?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; he didn't get there until a few minutes later.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the picture taken of the hulls?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You saw Day take the pictures, did you?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He was the cameraman, was he?
Mr.Sims. Well, there was another one there too. Actually, it was Detective Studebaker that works for him.
Mr.Ball. Studebaker and Day?
Mr.Sims. I believe it was Studebaker.
Mr.Ball. Did they both have cameras?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember if they both had cameras or not.
Mr.Ball. You saw one of them at least take a picture?
Mr.Sims. Yes; I know pictures was being taken.
Mr.Ball. When the picture was taken, were the hulls in the same position as when you had first seen them?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; they were.
Mr.Ball. What else did you see that day?
Mr.Sims. Well, someone then hollered—we started a search of the sixth floor then, going from east to west—all the officers, and someone had found the rifle over by the stairway.
Mr.Ball. That would be in what corner of the building?
Mr.Sims. That would be in actually the northwest corner of the building.
Mr.Ball. And what happened then?
Mr.Sims. Then, we went over to where the rifle was found.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the rifle?
Mr.Sims. Yes; I saw the rifle.
Mr.Ball. Where was the rifle?
Mr.Sims. It was laying there near a stairway, partially covered by some paper.
Mr.Ball. Did you see any pictures taken of that? Of the rifle at that location?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Ball. Who took that picture?
Mr.Sims. Well, it was either Studebaker or Lieutenant Day.
Mr.Ball. Who saw the picture taken—did you?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And then what did you do?
Mr.Sims. Then we finished there and went—started to go to the city hall.
Mr.Ball. You said you finished there, did you see anything of significance there besides these hulls and the rifle?
Mr.Sims. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see a paper bag?
Mr.Sims. Well, we saw some wrappings—a brown wrapping there.
Mr.Ball. Where did you see it?
Mr.Sims. It was there by the hulls.
Mr.Ball. Was it right there near the hulls?
Mr.Sims. As well as I remember—of course, I didn't pay too much attention at that time, but it was, I believe, by the east side of where the boxes were piled up—that would be a guess—I believe that's where it was.
Mr.Ball. On the east side of where the boxes were—would that be the east?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; it was right near the stack of boxes there. I know there was some loose paper there.
Mr.Ball. Was Johnson there?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; when the wrapper was found Captain Fritz stationed Johnson and Montgomery to observe the scene there where the hulls were found.
Mr.Ball. To stay there?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That was Marvin Johnson and L. D. Montgomery who stayed by the hulls?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; they did. I was going back and forth, from the wrapper to the hulls.
Mr.Ball. Was the window open in the southeast corner?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were there any boxes near the window?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; there was enough room for someone to stand between the boxes and the window.
Mr.Ball. Were there any boxes anywhere near the window ledge?
Mr.Sims. Yes; there was, I believe, I'm not positive about this, a couple of boxes, one stacked on the other right at the left of the window and then there was a stack of boxes directly behind the window about 3 or 4 feet high, I guess.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anybody take a picture of the boxes in the window—what position they were on the window ledge?
Mr.Sims. Well, Lieutenant Day took a picture of all the surrounding area there.
Mr.Ball. How long were you on the sixth floor of the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Sims. Well, sir; let's see—at the time the hulls were found, I think the hulls were found about 1:15, so we were down there just a minute or two. Let's see—we got back to the city hall at 2:15 and we went over and talked to Sheriff Decker 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Ball. Now, when you left, you say that Captain Fritz told Johnson and Montgomery to stay near the place where the hulls were located?
Mr.Sims. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was that after the picture had been taken of the hulls?
Mr.Sims. I believe it was during—before Lieutenant Day got up there, I believe.
Mr.Ball. And it was after that that you went to the place where the rifle was found?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then did you go back to the place where the hulls were located on the floor?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That's when the picture was taken?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; he was making pictures during that time.
Mr.Ball. Who picked up the hulls?
Mr.Sims. Well, I assisted Lieutenant Day in picking the hulls up.
Mr.Ball. There were three hulls?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, what kind of a receptacle did you put them in?
Mr.Sims. He had an envelope.
Mr.Ball. Did he take charge of the hulls there?
Mr.Sims. I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Did he take them in his possession, I mean?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember if he took them in his possession then or not.
Mr.Ball. But you helped him pick them up?
Mr.Sims. I picked them up from the floor and he had an envelope there and he held the envelope open.
Mr.Ball. You didn't take them in your possession, did you?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't believe I did.
Mr.Ball. When the rifle was found, were you there?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; we we still on the sixth floor where the hulls were, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Did you see anyone pick the rifle up off the floor?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; I believe Lieutenant Day—he dusted the rifle there for fingerprints.
Mr.Ball. And did you see Fritz do anything?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; he took it and ejected a live round of ammunition out of the rifle.
Mr.Ball. Do you know who took possession of that live round?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Now, you left the building about what time?
Mr.Sims. Well, we arrived at the city hall around 2 o'clock—I'll have to look at the record—on this—about 2:15—we left there evidently about 2 o'clock.
Mr.Ball. You and who?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz and Boyd.
Mr.Ball. Then where did you go?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz went over and talked to Sheriff Decker. He sent word he wanted to talk to Captain Fritz, so we talked to the sheriff and then we went to the city hall.
Mr.Ball. Where was Decker when he said he wanted to talk to Fritz?
Mr.Sims. Well, I didn't go inside the sheriff's office—I stayed out in the corridor there.
Mr.Ball. The sheriff's office is just a half a block from the Texas School Depository Building?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; it's across the street.
Mr.Ball. And the city hall where your office, the police offices are located, is how far from the corner of Elm and Houston?
Mr.Sims. Well, that's the 500 block there and the city hall is, let's see, in the 2000 block, I believe, so it would be 15 blocks.
Mr.Ball. A couple of miles—a mile and a half?
Mr.Sims. I don't know what it is.
Mr.Ball. When you went back to your offices, was Fritz there at that time?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; he went back with Boyd and I.
Mr.Ball. After you left Decker's?
Mr.Sims. He went back with Boyd and I.
Mr.Ball. What happened when you went back to your office?
Mr.Sims. Well, sir; we got to the office and, of course, it was full of people and Ithink——
Mr.Ball. You say it was full of people?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You mean the floor was full of people?
Mr.Sims. Our office was—I don't remember about the people.
Mr.Ball. What people?
Mr.Sims. Officers—police officers, I don't know who all was up there, all I know is that there was a lot of people.
Mr.Ball. Had the press moved in and the television cameras at that time?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember what time they had moved in—I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what happened when you got back?
Mr.Sims. Well, sir, I think he talked to a detective then—he's a lieutenant now—Captain Fritz talked to Baker and said, "While we was up in the Book Depository Store we heard Officer Tippit had been shot," and so Baker, I believe, told Captain Fritz that they had the man that had shot Officer Tippit, in the interrogation room.
Mr.Ball. Who was that Baker?
Mr.Sims. He was a detective then, but he's a lieutenant now. He has been in the office there for several years.
Mr.Ball. Baker told Fritz that Tippit had been shot?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; that we had heard that on the sixth floor of the Book Store, but he told Captain Fritz that the man that shot Officer Tippit was there in the interrogation room, or something to that effect.
Mr.Ball. What happened then?
Mr.Sims. Well, I don't know, let's see, we took Oswald at 2:20, Boyd and I, took Oswald from the interrogation room to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Ball. You and Boyd?
Mr.Sims. Yes.
Mr.Ball. At 2:20 took Oswald—that's the first time you saw Oswald?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; that's right, he was there in that interrogation room.
Mr.Ball. And who was in Fritz' office at that time?
Mr.Sims. Well, let's see, during the interrogation, there was Mr. Bookhout, that's Jim Bookhout, and Mr. Hosty, and Boyd and I and Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Did you make notes of what was said at that time?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Did your partner, Boyd, make notes, do you think?
Mr.Sims. I don't know if he did or not.
Mr.Ball. Do you have anything from which you can refresh your memory as to what was said in that interrogation?
Mr.Sims. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. You have some memory of what was said, don't you?
Mr.Sims. Well, not the exact wording or the exact questions.
Mr.Ball. Give us your memory of the substance of what was said there at that time.
Mr.Sims. Well, I couldn't say that. I know that it consisted of his name and where he lived and things of that nature, and where he worked.
Mr.Ball. Now, tell us all you can remember, even though it is not complete, just tell us as much as you can remember?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember—I know, like I say, he asked him his name and where he worked and things of that nature.
Mr.Ball. Did they ask him whether or not he had killed Tippit?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; I believe he did.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Sims. He said, "No."
Mr.Ball. Did they ask him if he had shot the President?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember now what—I wouldn't want to say for sure what questions he did ask him.
Mr.Ball. Who did the questioning?
Mr.Sims. Captain Fritz.
Mr.Ball. Did anyone else ask him questions?
Mr.Sims. Well, I don't know if they did or not.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him any questions?
Mr.Sims. No, sir.
Mr.Ball.Well——
Mr.Sims. Not at this time here, I didn't but I talked to him later on that evening.
Mr.Ball. But you didn't ask him any questions at the time you were there then?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I never did actually do any interrogation myself then.
Mr.Ball. Was he handcuffed at that time?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember if he was or not.
Mr.Ball. Wasn't he handcuffed with his handcuffs behind his back, and didn't he ask to be more comfortable?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember any incident where Oswald said he would be more comfortable if he could get his hands from behind his back, or something of that sort?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember changing his handcuffs at any time so that he could put his hands in front of him.
Mr.Sims. Of course, when he took the paraffin cast of his hands, he wasn't handcuffed?
Mr.Ball. But that was late that evening?
Mr.Sims. Yes; it was around—it was after dark, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Now, I'm talking about—only about the interrogation that commenced about 2:20 in the afternoon of November 22.
Mr.Sims. I just don't remember.
Mr.Ball. You don't remember changing the handcuffs?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Ball. How long was he in Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Sims. Well, let's see, we first went in there at 2 and we stayed in there evidently—this says here that the Secret Service and the FBI took part in the interrogation of Oswald with Captain Fritz, and we took him down to the first showup at 4:05.
Mr.Ball. Then, would you say he was in Captain Fritz' office from about 2:20 until 4 o'clock?
Mr.Sims. Well, he had to be either in Captain Fritz' office or the interrogation room—that's the only two places that he was kept.
Mr.Ball. All right, do you have any memory of how long he was in Captain Fritz' office the first time for the interrogation?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't recall if he stayed in there from 2:20 until showup time at 4:05 or not. He may have stayed in there all that time or he may have been put back in the interrogation room, which is right next door.
Mr.Ball. Where is the interrogation room from Captain Fritz' office?
Mr.Sims. It's in the same office, but just a different room—there's just a hall separating them.
Mr.Ball. And in the interrogation room, were you with Oswald?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You and Boyd?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. When he was in the interrogation room for the first showup, did you ask him any questions?
Mr.Sims. Yes; we talked to him.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember what you said to him?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't remember—it was just—I know I asked him about his—later on I asked him about his life in Russia and about him being in the service and things of that nature.
Mr.Ball. Did you ask him that at this time? Before the first showup at 4:05?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember what time it was.
Mr.Ball. There was sometime then that you asked him about his life in Russia?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Are you able to tell us about what time that was?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I sure don't know what time it was.
Mr.Ball. Could it have been after he had been in Captain Fritz' office and and before the first showup?
Mr.Sims. It was after he had been in Captain Fritz' office; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And it was in the interrogation room?
Mr.Sims. I—well, I don't know—I have talked to him both places, and I don't know—I know he wouldn't talk at all about the assassination of the President or of Officer Tippit, but he would talk about his life in Russia and some things over here and about his family and things.
Mr.Ball. Now, you say he wouldn't talk about the assassination of the President, what do you mean?
Mr.Sims. Well, he would just deny knowledge of it.
Mr.Ball. And you say he wouldn't talk about Officer Tippit's death, what do you mean by that; what would he say, if anything?
Mr.Sims. Well, he would make some remark and he just wouldn't talk about it.
Mr.Ball. Well, did he ever deny that he had anything to do with it?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He did?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of Officer Tippit's death?
Mr.Sims. Not at all; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever make any admission to you that he had any knowledge of the shooting of the President at all?
Mr.Sims. None at all.
Mr.Ball. When he did talk to you about his life in Russia, what did you say?
Mr.Sims. Well, I would ask him where he lived and he told me.
Mr.Ball. What did he tell you?
Mr.Sims. Well, I've forgotten the name of the town he said he lived in.
Mr.Ball. Irving, Tex.?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; in Russia.
Mr.Ball. Oh, in Russia—I see—what did he say?
Mr.Sims. Well, it was some town I didn't know about it, but he did say he lived in Moscow, I believe it was.
Mr.Ball. Anything else?
Mr.Sims. Well, he said he worked in a factory and he liked everything over there except the weather.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember anything else he said?
Mr.Sims. Well, no, sir; we talked about—just a general discussion about the cars over there and the appliances, and just talked to him about it.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you about his wife?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What did he say?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember what he said about his wife—he wouldn't talk about her much.
Mr.Ball. Or his children?
Mr.Sims. He said he had some children; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he say anything else except he had some children?
Mr.Sims. I believe he said he had—I don't know if he told me he had a brother or not.
Mr.Ball. There was one time there that you learned that he had a room at 1026 North Beckley—when did you learn that?
Mr.Sims. I don't know when that was, now, that was found out that first day, I believe. Another officer went out and searched his room and also went to Irving, I believe.
Mr.Ball. The officers went out and searched the room sometime that afternoon, around 3:30.
Mr.Sims. That's right, I believe so.
Mr.Ball. Can you tell me whether or not you are the one that found out he had a room at 1026 North Beckley?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Ball. He didn't tell you that?
Mr.Sims. No, sir; I don't believe he did.
Mr.Ball. All right. Did he tell you that his wife lived in Irving, Tex.?
Mr.Sims. I don't remember if he told me that or not.
Mr.Ball. Now, the first showup was at what time?
Mr.Sims. At 4:05.
Mr.Ball. How did you conduct that showup?
Mr.Sims. Well, we took Oswald down with us with the two police officers.
Mr.Ball. What two police officers?
Mr.Sims. Clark and Perry.
Mr.Ball. You say you took him down—where was he when you took him down?
Mr.Sims. He was in our office, Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Ball. That would be on the second floor?
Mr.Sims. Third floor.
Mr.Ball. On the third floor?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And where did you take him?
Mr.Sims. Well, we walked out of our door and turned left, and you go a few feet and go to the elevator—where the waiting room for the elevator is—it's a locked door, and then go from there to the basement of the city hall and then go from the elevator there to the holdover room next to the stage, the showup stage.
Mr.Ball. You have a special place for showups, do you?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And would you describe it?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; in front of it is the detail room, where the officers get their assignments every day before they go out in the squads, and the platform is a raised platform—I guess it's 2 or 2½ or 3 feet raised above the floor and it has got a black—some type of a cloth screen with floodlights at the top and down at the bottom.
Mr.Ball. Is it a cloth screen betweenthe——
Mr.Sims. Between the suspects and the witnesses we have.
Mr.Ball. The stage and the outer part of the room?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Are there seats in the room?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What kind of seats?
Mr.Sims. They are just a regular chair—with a long desk, something like this here.
Mr.Ball. You say you took Oswald down with a couple of the officers?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; two of the officers went with us—Perry and Clark.
Mr.Ball. And they are Dallas Police Department officers, are they?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And why did you have to have them come down with you?
Mr.Sims. I don't know why they did.
Mr.Ball. Who instructed them to go with you?
Mr.Sims. I don't know that. I know they said they were there for the showup so we went with them.
Mr.Ball. During the showup, were they part of the showup?
Mr.Sims. Yes; they participated in the showup; they were with Oswald and this jailer.
Mr.Ball. How were they dressed?
Mr.Sims. I believe one of them pulled his coat off, and I don't know how they were dressed, but one of them pulled his coat off—I know.
Mr.Ball. Were they handcuffed?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. They were handcuffed together?
Mr.Sims. Yes; all of them was handcuffed.
Mr.Ball. Now, there were four of them altogether?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. In the showup?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What were their names?
Mr.Sims. They were—well, it would be Clark and Perry and Oswald.
Mr.Ball. Give their full names, if you will.
Mr.Sims. All right.
Mr.Ball. And what their position is with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Sims. No. 1 was Bill Perry, W. E. Perry, he was No. 1, with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 2 was Lee Harvey Oswald, and No. 3 was R. L. Clark with the Dallas Police Department, and No. 4 was Don Ables, who is a civilian jail clerk.
Mr.Ball. And who selected Don Ables to be in the showup?
Mr.Sims. I don't know who selected him.
Mr.Ball. Does he have his office in the jail?
Mr.Sims. Well, yes, sir; the jail office—he works in there.
Mr.Ball. Can you give me just a general description of what these fellows look like?
Mr.Sims. Yes, sir; W. E. Perry, he is 34 years of age, 5'10 1/2" and about 170, I believe and that's a guess, now. He has brown hair, blue eyes, and dark complexion. Richard L. Clark is 31, 5'9 3/4", 170, has blond hair, blue eyes, and ruddy complexion.
Now, these weights could be different now—I don't know. Don Ables is 26, 5'9", 165, and brown hair.
Mr.Ball. What kind of complexion does Don Ables have?
Mr.Sims. I don't have that here—I believe he's just ruddy complexion, I believe.
Mr.Ball. Now, in the showup, where were you, on the stage or in the audience?
Mr.Sims. I was on the stage.