The testimony of Warren Caster was taken at 2 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Caster, would you please stand up and take the oath?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Caster. I do.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr.Caster. Warren Caster.
Mr.Ball. And where do you live?
Mr.Caster. 3338 Merrell.
Mr.Ball. What is your business?
Mr.Caster. Textbook publishing.
Mr.Ball. Are you with some company?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I am assistant manager for Southwestern Publishing Co. with offices at 411 Elm Street.
Mr.Ball. You have offices in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Caster. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You rent those offices from the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Caster. The offices are furnished in connection with our work with the Depository.
Mr.Ball. Will you tell me something about yourself, where you were born and where you were raised and educated?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I was born in New Mexico, educated in New Mexico, received my college degrees at New Mexico Highlands University at Las Vegas, N. Mex. I taught school in New Mexico from 1939 until I started to work with Southwestern Publishing Co. in 1952. There was a period of about 2 years that I spent in the U.S. Navy.
Mr.Ball. And have you had your offices since 1952 in the Texas School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Caster. The offices have been in the Texas School Book Depository Building, but not in this particular building here. We have occupied three places since I have been with the Southwestern Publishing Co.
Mr.Ball. Your office is on which floor?
Mr.Caster. Second floor.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever bring any guns into the School Book Depository Building?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. When?
Mr.Caster. I believe it was on Wednesday, November 20, during the noon hour.
Mr.Ball. Whose guns were they?
Mr.Caster. They were my guns.
Mr.Ball. And what kind of guns were they?
Mr.Caster. One gun was a Remington, single-shot, .22 rifle, and the other was a .30-06 sporterized Mauser.
Mr.Ball. Who owned them?
Mr.Caster. I had just purchased them during the noon hour that day.
Mr.Ball. Well, tell us about it—what were the circumstances of the purchase?
Mr.Caster. Well, I left the Depository during the noon hour and had lunch and, while out for the lunch hour, I stopped by Sanger-Harris sporting goods department to look for a rifle for my son's birthday—I beg your pardon, Christmas present—son's Christmas present, and while I was there I purchased the single-shot .22—single shot—and at the same time was looking at some deer rifles. I had, oh, for several years been thinking about buying a deer rifle and they happened to have one that I liked and I purchased the .30-06 while I was there.
Mr.Ball. And did they box them up?
Mr.Caster. They were in cartons; yes.
Mr.Ball. And then you went back to work, I guess?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I picked both rifles up in cartons just like they were, this was during the noon hour, and as I entered the Texas School Book Depository Building on my way up to the buying office, I stopped by Mr. Truly's office, and while I was there we examined the two rifles that I had purchased.
Mr.Ball. Did you take them out of the carton?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Who was there besides you and Mr. Truly?
Mr.Caster. Well, I'm not really sure who was there. I think you were there, Bill, and Mr. Shelley was there—and Mr. Roy Truly. The only people that I know about, in any event, were there; there were workers there at the time, but I'm not quite sure how many. I couldn't even tell you their names. I don't know the Texas School Book Depository workers there in the shipping department.
Mr.Ball. In that office, though, Truly's office, how many were there?
Mr.Caster. We weren't in Mr. Truly's immediate office, we were just there over the counter.
Mr.Ball. In the warehouse?
Mr.Caster. We were there in the hall—just right there over the counter in front of the warehouse; that's right.
Mr.Ball. And did you take the guns out of the carton?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I did. They were removed from the carton.
Mr.Ball. Did you handle them?
Mr.Caster. Yes; I did.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody else handle the guns?
Mr.Caster. Mr. Truly handled them and I'm not sure whether Mr. Shelley had the guns in his hands or not; I'm not positive.
Mr.Ball. How long a time were you there with the guns, and by time, just estimate it.
Mr.Caster. Well, it couldn't have been more than 10 minutes.
Mr.Ball. What did you do with the guns after that?
Mr.Caster. I put them back in the carton and carried them up to my office.
Mr.Ball. And what did you do with them after that?
Mr.Caster. I left at the end of the working day, oh, around 4 o'clock and took the guns in the cartons and carried them and put them in my car and carried them home.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever have them back in the Texas School Book Depository Building thereafter?
Mr.Caster. They have never been back to the Texas School Book Depository Building since then.
Mr.Ball. Where were those guns on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Caster. The guns were in my home, 3338 Merrell Road.
Mr.Ball. I think that's all. This will be written up and you will be asked to come in and it will be submitted to you for signature and you can correct it if you wish.
Mr.Caster. That's all right.
Mr.Ball. Any corrections you make, make them in pen and ink and initial it and sign it. I want to thank you very much for giving this testimony.
Mr.Caster. I thank you very much.
The testimony of Eddie Piper was taken at 4 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. You understand since this is a continuation of your deposition you are under oath still?
Mr.Piper. Thank you; I appreciate it.
Mr.Ball. Your deposition has been taken?
Mr.Piper. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Ball. I'm going to just ask you a few questions.
Mr.Piper. Sure, that's all right.
Mr.Ball. You told us that after the shooting you came out onto the floor?
Mr.Piper. That's right.
Mr.Ball. And the first people that you saw on the floor after the shooting was who?
Mr.Piper. Mr. Truly and some fellow—I really don't know who it was; like I say, it was some fellow that was with Mr. Truly.
Mr.Ball. Some fellow; how was he dressed?
Mr.Piper. Oh, I don't know.
Mr.Ball. Was he an officer?
Mr.Piper. Yes; I believe he was an officer.
Mr.Ball. A police officer?
Mr.Piper. Yes; a police officer.
Mr.Ball. Did he have a white helmet on?
Mr.Piper. No; I don't think so. I didn't pay any attention to it. I was already excited over the shooting or something when he came running into the building.
Mr.Ball. And what did Truly and this—some fellow do?
Mr.Piper. Well, Mr. Truly and this fellow run up the steps. He just hollered for the elevator and I said, "I don't know where it is at," and I'm still standing over there by that table and he ran up—on up the steps with this police officer—him and another fellow and I was standing there and the people began swarming out and around—different ones coming in, but it was where nobody could come out.
Mr.Ball. They were the first ones to go up the steps?
Mr.Piper. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Had anybody come down the steps before they went up the steps?
Mr.Piper. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. They weren't the first ones to come down?
Mr.Piper. Yes; and when the elevators come down—I really don't know who brought the elevators down, but I know nobody ever come down the steps.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see Vicki Adams come down the steps?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I don't know about that, if she said she did, it was after I got over here and walked over to the back door.
Mr.Ball. Did Vicki Adams come down before Truly and the man went up the steps?
Mr.Piper. No, sir, no, sir; she didn't do it.
Mr.Ball. Did you at anytime after the shooting miss Lee Oswald—did you notice he wasn't around?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I didn't notice it until the lineup. You know, I just figured all the people was there.
Mr.Ball. You did notice it at the lineup, did you?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Tell us about that.
Mr.Piper. I did notice it in the lineup.
Mr.Ball. What do you mean by the lineup?
Mr.Piper. I mean, when they lined us all up and told us to give our name and address and just to go home.
Mr.Ball. You say "they"; who do you mean?
Mr.Piper. The detective—whoever it was.
Mr.Ball. The police?
Mr.Piper. Yes; they had the building all surrounded. They went to locking the doors back and front and told us to all come up and then go home, and I told him, I says, "I've got to go down in the basement and get my clothes," and he said, "You can go down and get your clothes and come on back up here, but give me your identification and your name and tell us where you are staying," and everybody heard me say that, I guess, and he let us out of the building, one by one, and I went on out the front door.
Mr.Ball. Did you say something to anybody about not seeing Oswald there?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I didn't say it, but I just saw he wasn't in the lineup—I didn't tell anyone because I didn't see him.
Mr.Ball. Just tell us what did you notice?
Mr.Piper. I noticed he was not in the lineup.
Mr.Ball. You noticed that he was not in the lineup?
Mr.Piper. Yes.
Mr.Ball. But you didn't mention it to anybody?
Mr.Piper. No, sir; I didn't mention it but I knows he wasn't in the lineup, and Charles—I don't know whether he was, but he went out for lunch.
Mr.Ball. Was Charles Givens there?
Mr.Piper. I couldn't remember seeing him. He went out for lunch and I don't remember whether he come out from the building again or not because I was getting dressed to get out of there myself.
Mr.Ball. That's all.
Mr.Piper. Thank you, Mr. Chairman.
The testimony of William H. Shelley was taken at 3 p.m., on May 14, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Shelley, you have been sworn and this will be a continuation of your deposition. You are still under oath, you understand that?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you recall seeing a couple of guns in the Texas School Book Depository Building on the 20th of November 1963?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Shelley. Just outside Mr. Truly's office on the will-call counter.
Mr.Ball. And how did they get there?
Mr.Shelley. Mr. Warren Caster had just purchased them and brought them in and stopped by to see us.
Mr.Ball. Did you handle the guns?
Mr.Shelley. I held the .22.
Mr.Ball. And was there another make of gun too—there was, wasn't there?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; I believe there was a .30-06 Mauser that had been converted. It was a foreign make converted to a .30-06
Mr.Ball. Did you handle that?
Mr.Shelley. No.
Mr.Ball. What happened to the guns?
Mr.Shelley. Well, we looked them over, like you do any new toy, and he puts them back in the box and goes out of the door.
Mr.Ball. And did you ever see them again?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen any guns in that building before that date?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see any guns in that building between that date and the time the President was shot?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, the day the President was shot, when is the last time you saw Oswald?
Mr.Shelley. It was 10 or 15 minutes before 12.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Shelley. On the first floor over near the telephone.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him again?
Mr.Shelley. At the police station when they brought him in.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him in the building at anytime after 12?
Mr.Shelley. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you at anytime after the President was shot see Oswald in the building?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you at anytime after the President was shot tell Oswald to go home?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did you tell anybody to go home?
Mr.Shelley. No.
Mr.Ball. You didn't tell anybody to leave the building at all?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, you recall going up to the sixth floor after the shooting, do you?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you go over to the southeast corner of the building where there was a window open?
Mr.Shelley. Not all the way; they had it blocked off.
Mr.Ball. Did you at a later time go over there?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; not for several days afterwards.
Mr.Ball. Did you several days afterward go over there?
Mr.Shelley. After they released us to go back to work in the corner. We kept out for several days.
Mr.Ball. When you went back there, were there two Rolling Readers on top of a larger box?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; those were carried in by the local authorities. The boxes—the Rolling Readers were there.
Mr.Ball. They were?
Mr.Shelley. But the boxes that they were originally packed in were gone—they had been carried up to the police station.
Mr.Ball. You have seen pictures of the window, haven't you?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, yes.
Mr.Ball. With the larger box on the floor and two Rolling Readers on the top?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. One Rolling Reader resting in the sill of the window?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, the Rolling Readers were stacked three aisles away, I believe you testified, haven't you, before?
Mr.Shelley. I'm not sure how many aisles we moved all that stock now, but it was at least three aisles.
Mr.Ball. Away from the southeast corner?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; they were at least half way across the building from this corner.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever instructed anybody to take two Rolling Readers over there?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Would it have been unusual for two Rolling Readers to be out of the stack and over there?
Mr.Shelley. Very unusual, because they are different size cartons from everything else.
Mr.Ball. You mean from everything else in the southeast corner?
Mr.Shelley. Well, from any box on that floor.
Mr.Ball. They were?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; they were little boxes. The rest of them are pretty good sized.
Mr.Ball. You had had a special place for the Rolling Readers?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Then, the two Rolling Readers that were over in the southeast corner were out of place, were they?
Mr.Shelley. They sure were.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen them out of place before?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen those Rolling Readers in that corner before?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Now, we have seen pictures of a large box on the floor.
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize that?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What is that?
Mr.Shelley. You mean the one under the Rolling Readers?
Mr.Ball. The one under the Rolling Readers.
Mr.Shelley. It was a carton of "Think and Do" books, first-grade level.
Mr.Ball. "Think and Do" books?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Of the first-grade level?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Those cartons were larger than the Rolling Readers, aren't they?
Mr.Shelley. About four time as large.
Mr.Ball. Can you describe their size in inches?
Mr.Shelley. I would say they are around 22 long, 18 wide, and 20 tall, approximately.
Mr.Ball. What would you say is the size—was the size of the Rolling Reader?
Mr.Shelley. It's about 12 inches long—6 by 6.
Mr.Ball. Now, was there a place where things and those books were usually stacked on the sixth floor?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Where?
Mr.Shelley. Along the west wall all the way across.
Mr.Ball. You had been doing work up there that day, had you?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; I mean the east wall; I'm sorry.
Mr.Ball. Had they ever been in the west wall?
Mr.Shelley. No, sir; when we moved in that building we put them on the west wall.
Mr.Ball. On the west wall?
Mr.Shelley. On the west wall; I mean the east wall.
Mr.Ball. Then, the "Think and Do" books were on the east wall?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And piled how many cartons high?
Mr.Shelley. Well, there were some of them as high as eight high.
Mr.Ball. Then, this carton of "Think and Do" books that was on the floor, near the window, under the two Rolling Readers, was stacked—would have been stacked along the east wall?
Mr.Shelley. No; that was a new title and we didn't have a place for it and it had been set up on the west wall and when we started laying the floor, we had to move all of the stock over there, including that particular type.
Mr.Ball. Then, when you moved the stock, where did you move these "Think and Do" book cartons?
Mr.Shelley. They are on the south side—along the south side of the building. We just had a big line of stock, you know; the first thing that was pulled out, we would roll it onto the southeast corner, and then the row went right on back toward the west wall.
Mr.Ball. Along the west wall?
Mr.Shelley. We started rolling it east and then it went back west and as you fill in an order, it goes back west, you see.
Mr.Ball. There was also a carton of books where they found some handprints and they cut a piece out of the top; do you remember that? Don't you?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you recognize that carton?
Mr.Shelley. That was another carton of "Think and Do" books—sixth grade.
Mr.Ball. Where were those cartons usually stacked?
Mr.Shelley. They were stacked in the southeast corner on the east wall.
Mr.Ball. About where that was found, was it not?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, the "Think and Do" books for the first-grade level, that was underneath the two Rolling Readers; was that out of place?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How far away from the place where those books were usually stacked?
Mr.Shelley. Where they were previously stacked was over near the west wall.
Mr.Ball. But where you had rolled them to; how far was it?
Mr.Shelley. Oh, about 3 feet.
Mr.Ball. About 3 feet?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And the "Think and Do" books, sixth-grade level, where the piece had been cut out to examine for his palmprint, was it in its proper place?
Mr.Shelley. Well, all that stock was stacked clear to the south wall on the east side and some cartons had been moved and stacked on top of some more. There was an empty spot there and this one particular carton was sitting on it there.
Mr.Ball. By itself?
Mr.Shelley. Yes; by itself. By the side where the rest of them were.
Mr.Ball. Now, Lee Oswald was a checker, wasn't he?
Mr.Shelley. An order filler.
Mr.Ball. An order filler?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And do you recall that when he came to work he used a clipboard to put his orders on; is that correct?
Mr.Shelley. Yes, sir; all of the boys do.
Mr.Ball. All the boys use clipboards?
Mr.Shelley. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Do you know where Oswald got the clipboard he used?
Mr.Shelley. Well, it was a piece of cardboard, actually, with a clip on it and it was homemade—he could have made it himself.
Mr.Ball. You don't know who made it?
Mr.Shelley. No; I'm not for sure.
Mr.Ball. Were you present when the clipboard was found on the sixth floor?
Mr.Shelley. It was Frankie Kaiser that found that and came down and told me and I told Mr. Pinkston with the FBI.
Mr.Ball. Did you go up and look at it?
Mr.Shelley. I went up with him and he got it.
Mr.Ball. Did you see a name on it?
Mr.Shelley. I think it had Frankie's name on it—Frankie Kaiser's name. He said he thought that might have been one he had made before—he was all times making them.
Mr.Ball. I believe that's all. Your other deposition is going to come down here and you can sign it at the same time you sign this one.
Mr.Shelley. OK; I was coming back up the next day and we were awful busy down there is the reason I didn't.
Mr.Ball. Anyway, it will come down for your signature and you can look it over and, if you have any corrections to make, correct them and initial them. That's all, and thank you.
Mr.Shelley. All right; thank you.
The testimony of Edward Shields was taken at 4:25 p.m., on May 14, 1964, at the Texas School Book Depository Building, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Shields. I do.
Mr.Ball. State your name.
Mr.Shields. Edward Shields.
Mr.Ball. Where do you live?
Mr.Shields. I live now at 1432 Stirling. I was living at 414 Cleaves Street.
Mr.Ball. What is your occupation?
Mr.Shields. I work in the shipping department, but some guy put it down that I worked as a shipping clerk. I do receiving and shipping with the shipping department.
Mr.Ball. Of what company?
Mr.Shields. With the Texas School Book Co. at 1917 North Houston, at the warehouse.
Mr.Ball. That's how far from the building that is at the corner of Houston and Elm?
Mr.Shields. Well, I'd say about three blocks down to this old building.
Mr.Ball. How long have you worked for the Texas School Book Co.?
Mr.Shields. It will be 14 years the 14th of August.
Mr.Ball. But you work in the warehouse?
Mr.Shields. I do.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, 1963, were you out watching the parade pass by?
Mr.Shields. I was.
Mr.Ball. For what time?
Mr.Shields. I'd say from about 5 to 12 to about 10 after 12; I mean, about 5 to 12 to 10 after 12—I heard the shooting.
Mr.Ball. The shooting was at 12:30.
Mr.Shields. It was—that's when we was standing there watching the parade when it came through.
Mr.Ball. How did you get around to see him before?
Mr.Shields. We just got on the parking lot there because we go up there and sit down there and talk with James Tracey.
Mr.Ball. Who is James Tracey?
Mr.Shields. He was the manager of the lot—there's somebody else there now.
Mr.Ball. That lot is where?
Mr.Shields. It's near Record and Elm.
Mr.Ball. Near Record and Elm?
Mr.Shields. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You say you go up there to a parking lot?
Mr.Shields. Well, we go over there every day at noon and talk to the fellow that ran it, but that's not the same fellow there now.
Mr.Ball. But had you, prior to November 22, 1963, had it been your custom of going over there to see him at noon?
Mr.Shields. I had been going by there every day at noon.
Mr.Ball. What about Givens?
Mr.Shields. I would be going some days when he wouldn't go, but I would see him—James Tracey—every day at noon.
Mr.Ball. On November 22, did you go over there?
Mr.Shields. I was there—yes; I was there.
Mr.Ball. Approximately what time?
Mr.Shields. That was around 5 to 12—that would be to 5 after 12.
Mr.Ball. What about Givens?
Mr.Shields. He was there at noon after he had eaten his lunch, I mean, he come on up there.
Mr.Ball. Did you see the President's motorcade?
Mr.Shields. I sure did.
Mr.Ball. Where was it when you saw it?
Mr.Shields. I was just standing right around there at Mullendorf's Cafe.
Mr.Ball. At what address?
Mr.Shields. On Record and Main.
Mr.Ball. Who was with you?
Mr.Shields. Givens.
Mr.Ball. And did you hear any shots?
Mr.Shields. Yes; I heard the shots.
Mr.Ball. And what did you and Givens do after you heard the shots?
Mr.Shields. I said, "The President has been shot"; we walked back to the lot and where Tracey was. I heard one shot and then a pause and then this repetition—two shots right behind the other, and I thought it was backfire from a car and I said, "Someone shot the President."
Mr.Ball. You said, "Someone shot the President"?
Mr.Shields. That's right, I did. I didn't know what had happened.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Shields. Well, Givens run down here—right down here.
Mr.Ball. He ran down here to this building?
Mr.Shields. He ran down to the next corner.
Mr.Ball. And what was the next corner?
Mr.Shields. That was on Elm and Houston.
Mr.Ball. Did you come with him?
Mr.Shields. No; I did not—he had me to stay there at the lot.
Mr.Ball. And they all ran down there?
Mr.Shields. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Givens again?
Mr.Shields. Yes; we came back to the building—he and Tracey.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Shields. We came back down to the Texas School Book Depository Building here and tried to get in the building and they wouldn't let no one in—he couldn't get in and I went on back to the warehouse.
Mr.Ball. What did Givens do?
Mr.Shields. Well, they came and got him because he was working here and I was at the warehouse.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him leave with the police?
Mr.Shields. No; I didn't. I was at the warehouse and he had come here.
Mr.Ball. I believe that's all. This will be written up and you will be asked to sign it and to make any corrections that you wish, you may make them in your own handwriting, and somebody will call you from the U.S. attorney's office and let you know when to come up.
Mr.Shields. OK.
Mr.Ball. Thank you very much.
Mr.Shields. OK.
The testimony of Sam Guinyard was taken at 10:15 a.m., on April 2, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Will you stand up, Sam, and hold up your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give before the Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Will you state your name and address for the record?
Mr.Guinyard. Sam Guinyard.
Mr.Ball. That's [spelling] G-u-i-n-y-a-r-d, and what is your address—where do you live?
Mr.Guinyard. 2815 South Ervay Street.
Mr.Ball. Where were you working on November 22, 1963?
Mr.Guinyard. On East Jefferson—501 East Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. Where is that?
Mr.Guinyard. Harris Motor Co.
Mr.Ball. A used-car lot?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What kind of work were you doing?
Mr.Guinyard. Porter.
Mr.Ball. How old are you, Sam?
Mr.Guinyard. I am 28.
Mr.Ball. And where were you born?
Mr.Guinyard. In Ennis.
Mr.Ball. Ennis, Tex.?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Guinyard. Ennis and Hillsboro.
Mr.Ball. And how far through school did you go?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, I got to the sixth grade.
Mr.Ball. What have you done since then, what kind of work have you done mostly?
Mr.Guinyard. Compress work.
Mr.Ball. What is that?
Mr.Guinyard. Press cotton—pressing cotton.
Mr.Ball. When did you come to Dallas?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, I have been back in Dallas ever since 1957. I lived in Plainview about 13 years.
Mr.Ball. At—what kind of work have you done since you came to Dallas?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, a porter in a carlot.
Mr.Ball. A porter in a carlot?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Have you ever been in any kind of trouble in your life?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir; nothing but a little poker fines that otherwise I paid and I got a couple of tickets in my life.
Mr.Ball. Now, on the day of November 22, 1963, that's the day the President was killed, what were you doing?
Mr.Guinyard. Working there.
Mr.Ball. And you heard about it, that he had been shot? Didn't you?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; at the time I did.
Mr.Ball. What were you doing and where were you then when you heard that?
Mr.Guinyard. In Oak Cliff at 501 East Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. What were you doing?
Mr.Guinyard. Polishing and waxing a station wagon.
Mr.Ball. And did something else happen that day that you remember?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. What?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, this was when Oswald shot the policeman.
Mr.Ball. Tell me what you heard—I just want to know what you were doing and what you heard?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, he was about—Iguess——
Mr.Ball. Now, wait a minute, were you polishing cars when you heard something?
Mr.Guinyard. When I heard a shot.
Mr.Ball. You heard a noise?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And it sounded like shots?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. How many?
Mr.Guinyard. I heard three.
Mr.Ball. Where did the sound come from?
Mr.Guinyard. Right behind me, north of me—behind me.
Mr.Ball. What street is north of you?
Mr.Guinyard. Tenth.
Mr.Ball. You were on what street—your carlot faces what street?
Mr.Guinyard. It faces Jefferson and 10th.
Mr.Ball. And 10th Street is north?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; and I was in the back—I was about half way right in the back.
Mr.Ball. The cross street is Patton Street?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you do when you heard the shots?
Mr.Guinyard. I raised up trying to see where they were coming from, where the sound was coming from.
Mr.Ball. Then what did you do?
Mr.Guinyard. I was looking—trying to see and after I heard the third shot, then Oswald came through on Patton running—came right through the yard infront of the big white house—there's a big two-story white house—there's two of them there and he come through the one right on the corner of Patton.
Mr.Ball. Could you see down to the corner of 10th and Patton to the house?
Mr.Guinyard. I seen him when he come between the two houses, come around in front of the last house to get on Patton Street to come out to Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. Where were you when you saw this?
Mr.Guinyard. Where was I?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Guinyard. I was there at the back, right at the alley back there about as far from Patton Street as—about twice as far from here as to that window.
Mr.Ball. Then, you were about 10 feet from Patton Street?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. So that you could look up Patton Street?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. North on Patton?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And you saw a man, did you?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you see him doing?
Mr.Guinyard. He came through there running and knocking empty shells out of his pistol and he had it up just like this with his hand.
Mr.Ball. With which hand?
Mr.Guinyard. With his right hand; just kicking them out.
Mr.Ball. He had it up?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; he had it up just like this.
Mr.Ball. How was he kicking them out?
Mr.Guinyard. He was rolling them with his hand—with his thumb.
Mr.Ball. Rolling them with his thumb?
Mr.Guinyard. Checking them—he had the pistol up just like this [indicating].
Mr.Ball. Did he use his left hand any?
Mr.Guinyard. No; I never did see him use his left hand.
Mr.Ball. He didn't?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. And where was he with reference to the corner of Patton and 10th when you saw him?
Mr.Guinyard. Where was he?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mr.Guinyard. Just as he come around the corner on Patton, he cut through the yard and missed the corner on 10th and Patton and cut through the yard.
Mr.Ball. He cut through the yard of the house on the corner of 10th and Patton?
Mr.Guinyard. That's right.
Mr.Ball. That would be the southeast corner, wouldn't it?
Mr.Guinyard. The west—southwest corner—the southeast corner is where he started across, but he come out on Patton on the southwest corner.
Mr.Ball. In other words, when you first saw him he was cutting across the yard of the house on the southeast corner?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. That's the white house?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; the big two-story white house.
Mr.Ball. Did he cross Patton?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir; he come down Patton until he got to about 5 feet from the corner of Jefferson and then he turned across and went across to the west corner on Jefferson.
Mr.Ball. What side of the street did you see him coming down on?
Mr.Guinyard. He was on the left side—when he come down—it would be the east side.
Mr.Ball. Did you see Mr. Callaway there?
Mr.Guinyard. We was together; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. You were together?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir; he was at the front and I was at the back.
Mr.Ball. You and Callaway were standing at the alleyway?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. The alleyway that runs along the north side of the lot?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Now, where was Oswald when he passed you going south toward Jefferson?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, he was between the alley and the driveway coming off Patton.
Mr.Ball. And he was across the street from you, wasn't he?
Mr.Guinyard. No; he was on this side of the street.
Mr.Ball. You were on the east side of the street?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir; and he was too—he was on the east side of the street until he got across our driveway and then he got onto the west side.
Mr.Ball. How close was he to you when you saw him?
Mr.Guinyard. I guess he was about 10 feet from me—maybe.
Mr.Ball. About 10 feet?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Mr. Callaway has told us and we measured it with a tape measure, that Oswald was on the west side of the street, and we measured it and he figured it was about 55 feet from him when he passed.
Mr.Guinyard. Well, he crossed over after he crossed the driveway.
Mr.Ball.Well——
Mr.Guinyard. Mr. Callaway followed him, you see, we was together—he was my boss at that time and he followed him.
Mr.Ball. Callaway?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; trying to see which way was he going.
Mr.Ball. And then, which way did he go after he got to Jefferson?
Mr.Guinyard. He went west on Jefferson—on the right-hand side—going west.
Mr.Ball. And what did Callaway do?
Mr.Guinyard. He turned around and run back to the street and we helped load the policeman in the ambulance.
Mr.Ball. He ran back up to 10th Street, did you say?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you go with him?
Mr.Guinyard. Right with him.
Mr.Ball. Did you see a police car there?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. What did you see besides the police car?
Mr.Guinyard. The police that was laying down in the front of the car.
Mr.Ball. A policeman?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Was he dead or alive at that time?
Mr.Guinyard. He looked like he was dead to me.
Mr.Ball. What did you do?
Mr.Guinyard. Helped put him in the ambulance.
Mr.Ball. You stayed there until the ambulance came?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Were you there when the truck came up that was driven by Benavides?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He came up right after this?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; he came up from the east side—going west.
Mr.Ball. And then what did you do after that?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, we stood there a while and talked and I called him Donnie, he picked up all them empty hulls that come out of the gun.
Mr.Ball. Who did—Benavides?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you pick them up—any of them?
Mr.Guinyard. He picked them up—I didn't pick them up—I was there with him.
Mr.Ball. You were there?
Mr.Guinyard. I was there with him.
Mr.Ball. You were there when he picked them up?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Where were they?
Mr.Guinyard. Laying across the yard as he kicked them out all around the sidewalk.
Mr.Ball. Were they anywhere near the bushes?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir; there was just this little old shrub that was in the yard just laying down through the yard—that little old shrub that was there.
Mr.Ball. Later that day, did you go down to the police department?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir; I went down that night.
Mr.Ball. That same night?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Whom did you go down with?
Mr.Guinyard. Me and Ted.
Mr.Ball. You and who?
Mr.Guinyard. Ted—Ted Callaway.
Mr.Ball. Ted Callaway?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes.
Mr.Ball. And where did you go when you went to the police station?
Mr.Guinyard. I went to the identifying office.
Mr.Ball. You went into a place where there were police officers?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And how did you identify him—tell me what happened to you, what you saw?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, I just saw him.
Mr.Ball. Well, were you in a big room?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes—in a big room.
Mr.Ball. With police officers?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. And what did you see?
Mr.Guinyard. I don't understand you.
Mr.Ball. Did you see some men up ahead of you?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes—four men.
Mr.Ball. Four men?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes—four men—handcuffed together.
Mr.Ball. What did you say?
Mr.Guinyard. They was handcuffed together.
Mr.Ball. They was handcuffed?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes; all four of them.
Mr.Ball. Were they of different sizes?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, they was pretty close together—there wasn't much difference in size.
Mr.Ball. In height—they were about the same?
Mr.Guinyard. About the same.
Mr.Ball. Were they all about the same color?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.
Mr.Ball. All about the same color?
Mr.Guinyard. No, sir; they wasn't all about the same color.
Mr.Ball. Did you say anything to any police officer there after you saw them?
Mr.Guinyard. I talked to one—with the detective—after he came out there.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him—I mean in this room—as you saw these four men up there?
Mr.Guinyard. He just asked me reckon I could identify them and I said I sure could.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him?
Mr.Guinyard. I just told him I sure could.
Mr.Ball. What did you say to him about it?
Mr.Guinyard. Well, I didn't say anything—I was just waiting on them to bring them in.
Mr.Ball. After they brought them in and after you looked at them, what did you tell the police officers?
Mr.Guinyard. I told them that was him right there—I pointed him out right there. That was him right there.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember where he was standing in the lineup—what number he was?
Mr.Guinyard. I don't know what his number was, but I can tell you where he was standing at.
Mr.Ball. Where was he standing?
Mr.Guinyard. He was standing—the second man from the east side, and that lineup was this way [indicating] and he was the second man from that there end.
Mr.Ball. And did you tell any police officer that you thought that was the man?
Mr.Guinyard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Whom did you tell; what police officer was it?