Mr.Jenner. He's not antagonistic to religion but she is?
Mr.Voshinin. She is. Yeah. But the only time she came—and she cried in the church.
Mr.Jenner. Now, which church is this? Here in Dallas or in Haiti?
Mr.Voshinin. Here.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Voshinin. When they came back, you see, from there, Brightman died after—pretty soon, and they came to the church—which puzzled our pastor very much, Father Royster—and they asked for a church service.
Mr.Jenner. They asked to have a mass said for the deceased Mr. Brightman?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. So, after that, when he came already he said he would like to look for another assignment.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Was there anything said when they came back, or reports that when they were in Guatemala that they occupied a home there of some people, I think, from Arizona—Hilton or Tilton?
Mr.Voshinin. No—not that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. Or a name of that character? And they stayed in Guatemala while the Cuban refugees were being trained?
Mr.Voshinin. No; I didn't hear about that.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't? All right.
Mr.Voshinin. You see, they didn't write us from their trip.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. What we heard from their trip, we heard actually from Mr. and Mrs. Ballen.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] B-a-l-l-e-n—Sam Ballen?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Sam Ballen is a friend of theirs?
Mr.Voshinin. Sam Ballen was then a friend of theirs and Sam Ballen was a friend of the boss, Mr. Rogatz, my wife's boss. That's how we came to know Mr. Ballen, through Mr. Rogatz. Mr. Ballen was there almost every day in Rogatz' office.
Mr.Jenner. But Ballen was a particular friend of De Mohrenschildt; is that correct?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; I would say so. Ballen had some kind of admiration of George—which I can't share too well. I think George is a very interesting fellow, I enjoyed talking with him—taking, of course, 30 or 40 percent off of what he says. But still the rest of it was always interesting because, you know, a man who travels, always travels, always tells something interesting about the country. And George had a certain talent of observation.
You know, he is writing a book about his travels to Panama and he has it written day by day; and now he wants to sell this book. He read us a few pages from that book.
Mr.Davis. Is that George Bouhe?
Mr.Voshinin. No; George De Mohrenschildt. George Bouhe is an unusually dumb person. And then he finally got this Haiti assignment, of course.
Mr.Jenner. And he left Dallas for the Haiti assignment when?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, somewhere in the spring last year.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. What did he tell you about that assignment, if he told you anything?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, he showed us a newspaper again.
Mr.Jenner. What newspaper?
Mr.Voshinin. From Haiti.
Mr.Jenner. And to what effect was the article in the paper?
Mr.Voshinin. It was more than a page.
Mr.Jenner. More than a page?
Mr.Voshinin. It may—it was more than a page and it was the official newspaper of the Government of Haiti—which was a contract between the Government of Haiti and George De Mohrenschildt Co., Inc.—not George De Mohrenschildt himself—to make a magnetic survey of Haiti for the sum of—I don't remember exactly—about $300,000; in which it said that Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company will, according to specification, make a magnetic survey and also work on discoveries of minerals—oil and other minerals.
Mr.Jenner. In Haiti?
Mr.Voshinin. For the country of Haiti—and I think the contract is for 2 years.
I also saw another newspaper, which she showed to everybody—Mrs. De Mohrenschildt—in which it was said that a contract was signed between our country and Mr. De Mohrenschildt's company and Mr. De Mohrenschildt is an American businessman who is just visiting now our country with his wonderfulwife. And she liked that, of course. And it was few more words written about how wonderful she was—so she told—showed it to everybody. Well, that's only human—"They say I'm a wonderful woman!"
Mr.Jenner. These two newspaper accounts were shown to you by the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. While they were here in Dallas before they left for Haiti?
Mr.Voshinin. No; they were in Haiti before they finally left there. It was on a short trip to sign the contract.
Mr.Jenner. They took at least one or more short trips toHaiti——
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Until they had these contracts signed?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And then they left permanently for 2 years?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. And that was in the spring of 1963, that they left?
Mr.Voshinin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. In that interim period preceding their leaving is when you saw the newspaperaccount——
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Printed in the Haiti paper?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah—in French.
Mr.Jenner. In French?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah.
Mr.Jenner. Which you and your wife, and others in this community we've been talking about, saw?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. Well—after they left, that's it.
Mr.Jenner. That's it. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. And since then, we have received, I think, a short card from them and the Christmas greeting—that was all.
Mr.Jenner. That's about all?
Mr.Voshinin. That's about all.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, when they made the trip from the United States-Mexican border to Panama, was there anything said to you by them, or was it the reputation in the area, about something about their meeting Mikoyan when they were on that trip?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, this was before that trip.
Mr.Jenner. It was? Tell us about that, please.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, they made a trip before that trip by foot—they made a trip to Mexico City and back, just a short trip.
Mr.Jenner. That was by more conventional means of transportation?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; yes. That was either by car or by plane. I don't know. I think they mostly traveled by car.
I know that they went to New York and they came back from New York and then went to Mexico City and then came back to Dallas.
And we heard—I don't know from whom we heard—that they met Mikoyan. I imagine we heard that from the Ballens. I think—I imagine so. But then I asked her about that, because I didn't like it, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't like the fact that they had met Mikoyan?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. I wouldn't meet Mikoyan—being a top Communist—Mr. Mikoyan is a top Communist and a butcher of the Stalin times. So, whatever he talks now, I wouldn't meet him anyhow.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, you wouldn't have anything to do with Mikoyan?
Mr.Voshinin. No, sir; so, I asked her what is the whole story about? And she told me that it was just meant as a joke—namely that at that time there was a Soviet exhibition of somekind——
Mr.Jenner. In Mexico City.
Mr.Voshinin. In Mexico City. And that's why Mikoyan was present there. And one day—and she said Mikoyan was always guarded by Mexican securityand Soviet security—and it was one moment he was televised—you know, when he was televised—she just jumped out of the crowd through the security men, you know, and said, "Hello, hello, Mr. Mikoyan. What are you doing?"
And she said, "He was terribly embarrassed and afraid perhaps I'll kill him."
But, so, he said, "Who are you?"
And she said, "I'm a Russian living in America."
And he asked, "What you want?"
And she said then the security agent came and asked her to leave—and she left.
So, she says that's all that it was—she said.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. Because, you know, I wanted to make sure of what the thing is about.
Mr.Jenner. You wanted to know?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. I wanted to know from her—because if she would go, you know, make some deals with Mikoyan, then I wouldn't like to talk with her at all.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. But a joke—well De Mohrenschildt and his wife—they are peculiar people, always doing something which nobody else does.
Mr.Jenner. Were they unconventional people?
Mr.Voshinin. They are the most unconventional people I ever have seen.
Mr.Jenner. Are they unconventional in dress as well as in habits and things they do?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes; oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us a little about the unconventionality of dress.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, for example, she always goes around in trousers, a very tight trouser, with some kind of a tight bosom top, you know, trying to imitate, you know, 15-year teenager girls, you know. And he goes out very often without a tie or open breast—completely open breast. And he may drop in somebody's party in this state—and without shoes, you know. He may do things like that. Another time, you may see him perfectly dressed.
Mr.Jenner. He's unpredictable?
Mr.Voshinin. He is absolutely unpredictable—and I think even he knows he's unpredictable, because I understand he even had a psychiatrist to whom he went. My wife told me about that.
Mr.Jenner. From all this, do you have an impression of the De Mohrenschildts—either one of them—as to their possible connection with any Communist or agencies, Party, or what not? Or do you think they are just extraordinarily unconventional? In other words, do you think it's deeper than the lack of conventionality?
Mr.Voshinin. It may be; it may not be. I'm not—you know, now all of us are looking back and trying to talk it over and find one way or the other. This is a thing which, you know, is discussed at all times.
Mr.Jenner. You're rationalizing at the moment?
Mr.Voshinin. We are rationalizing—all of us—at that moment. Of course, we do not have any proof whatever one way or the other.
I can tell you what she told us.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. She told us that her first husband was a former Communist.
Mr.Jenner. Her first husband wasthe——
Mr.Voshinin. Bogoiavlensky.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Who is now in a mental institution in California?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And that he was a Communist?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; in his young days.
Mr.Jenner. Well, when you say "Communist"—an active member of the Communist Party?
Mr.Voshinin. I think of the Communist Youth Organization. Because it was not in Soviet Russia; it was in China.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. But of some kind—I don't know what the official name of the organization may be—but it was some kind of Communist Youth Organization.
So she said when she married him that the situation what it was and they did not want to stay in China and they debated the question of whether to go to Soviet Russia or to go to United States. And she said that it's her influence was to break up—that he break up all his ties with the Communists. And come to the United States.
Mr.Jenner. That was her desire?
Mr.Voshinin. She said that was her desire. And she said that's what her first husband did—that they broke off with the Communists and come over to the United States. And she said, "Since then, neither my husband or me have anything to do with the Communist Party."
That's her story.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. On the other hand, she was always praising the Chinese Communist regime—because she was saying that they do a lot of good developing her beloved native country.
Mr.Jenner. China?
Mr.Voshinin. China.
When she said—mentioned that in my presence, I said, "This is pure Communist propaganda. You should know better than tell that."
On this she repeated very, you know angrily, she say, "You should not tell me that I spread Communist propaganda—because they shot my father."
That's what she said.
But that argument of whether the Communists do anything positive for China or not was, you know, coming back and back.
Mr.Jenner. Repeated?
Mr.Voshinin. Repeatedly when we met. And sometimes, especially my wife and her were so angry with each other that we wouldn't talk with them, you know, for several months. But somehow you meet these people again somewhere in the same social circle, then you talk to them again.
Mr.Jenner. There was a violent difference of opinion between your wife and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt on this subject?
Mr.Voshinin. On this subject.
But where the Russian Communists are concerned, she always said that they are too nationalistic for her. She doesn't like—she didn't like that.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Mrs. De Mohrenschildt didn't like that.
She said, "I don't like anything about Russia." She didn't like Russian music, she wouldn't stand a record in Russian language, or even anybody, you know, whistling a Russian tune. She would get so angry I don't know what.
And she would say, "I am against nationalism of any kind. I am for the world government." She was very much for the world government, you know, and things like that—international institutions and—uh; but, on the other hand, when you start, you know, pressing her against the wall, you say, "Well, stop that. That's kind of communistic talk,"—she would immediately bring into the thing that "They killed my poor father. I just want to be objective, you know, and say what's bad, what's good." And she said, "you are all one-sided reactionaries," and so on, and "what do you think?" "I would praise the killers of my father?" And so on. "I just want to be objective."
Well, you know, I don't like to argue with, you know, too much with women; so I just stay away from that argument. But my wife will probably tell you.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, did you become acquainted at anytime——
Mr.Voshinin. May I say something in addition?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. Because that's what I said about her.
What his concern—I never heard about him praising Chinese or Russian Communists but he was praising the Yugoslav Communists. He was there and he came there and he was very enthusiastic about what the wonderful things they are doing. You know, I lived in Yugoslavia myself and I tried to explain him that this country was pretty good country before and there was nothing just to save it from.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. But, of course, he didn't see it and he was very enthusiastic and—about mountains and so on. I tried to persuade him they were there before, you know, that they were wonderful before—and that Communists did not build them—but he would somehow always, was always enthusiastic about that.
Mr.Jenner. About Yugoslavia?
Mr.Voshinin. About Yugoslavia and the Yugoslavia regime.
Mr.Jenner. And its regime as well?
Mr.Voshinin. Its regime as well. That's true.
About China, he said he doesn't know anything; he'll let his wife talk.
So, anyhow, these people are, of course, leftist people.
Mr.Jenner. The De Mohrenschildts are leftists?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. But she much more than him. Because he was, on the other hand, boasting, you know, that he never voted for a Democrat.
Mr.Jenner. He had never voted for a Democrat?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. He was always an Eisenhower man, a Republican—and they argued between themselves the whole time.
Mr.Jenner. That is Mr. and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes. And the way they argued on politics among themselves—because she was somehow bitterly left, and he sometimes tried to, you know, get her be a little more objective.
Mr.Jenner. Induce her to be a little more objective?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. But she was always bitterly to the left.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever meet either Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr.Voshinin. No, sir; thank God!
Mr.Jenner. Did a time come when you heard about Lee or Marina Oswald?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us the circumstances.
Mr.Voshinin. I read in the newspaper, Dallas Herald, about them.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, when they came to this country. There was a short article about an American defector to the Communists, that he finally came back with a Russian wife.
Mr.Jenner. That was in June of 1962—just to orient you. You saw that item in the newspaper?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a subject of discussion in the community among the people you've told us about?
Mr.Voshinin. No; not in the beginning. Except that we heard—we visited Mr. and Mrs. Clark.
Mr.Jenner. Is that Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mr.Voshinin. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. An attorney in Fort Worth?
Mr.Voshinin. In Fort Worth. And she is of Russian descent, as you know; and they told us that they met this couple which came from Soviet Russia and they didn't like them. And they said he was very unpleasant and bitter fellow—and they wouldn't like to see him again—something like that. So, we decided already there that we wouldn't like to meet them either, you know—and especially, you know, you don't like any kind of defector, you know, or any kind of unpleasant, "bummish" people, you know. That's a Dallas expression. That's polite for bum—as he was described to us. He—Oswald.
So, later, we heard that Mr. Bouhe, of course, in lack of other prospects for help, started helping the Oswald family. But as far as our relations with Bouhe nowadays, already for many years, are just very, very occasional; we had no direct contact with him except we really need something, you know, an address or some information of that kind. So, Bouhe wouldn't bring them to us. He knows that—better than bringing to us anybody.
But, as I understand, the De Mohrenschildts met with the Oswalds and the De Mohrenschildts told us that there are two poor, very poor and young people here, Mr. and Mrs. Oswald, and they need help and she has a toothache and they are bringing her to the dentist, and so on—they don't have a penny andnobody gives them a job, and things like that. And "would you like to meet them?"
Well, after reading, you know, what we read and after hearing from Clarks, who these people are, I say, "No, George; I don't like to meet him." And my wife said, "Oh, no; we don't like to meet with that kind of people."
So, I said that very insistently—so the De Mohrenschildts knew better than acquaint us. So, never we met them. Of course, it could have happened, you know, if we would have just dropped in sometime. There was always a possibility of that kind. But, thankGod——
Mr.Jenner. But it never happened?
Mr.Voshinin. It never happened. So, we always were hearing about them from De Mohrenschildts and other people but we never met them actually.
Mr.Jenner. You had the impression, did you not—or did you—that the De Mohrenschildts saw the Oswalds frequently and were attempting to assist them?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; he was—only one time he was very bitter about Oswald when he beat up his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, once we saw De Mohrenschildt and his wife and he said, "Well, he doesn't behave like he should. What does he think he is, beating his wife?" But Mrs. De Mohrenschildt said, "Well, don't just judge people without knowing what's behind them." She said, "You always, George, you jump to conclusions. We don't know what happened."
I understand that she liked Lee much more than he did.
Mr.Jenner. That Mrs. De Mohrenschildt liked Lee much more than George did?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
This fellow De Mohrenschildt, was he a type of person to provoke arguments?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, yes; he liked that. Yes; sure.
Mr.Jenner. Describe him physically. Is he a handsome man? A big man? Athletic?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; he is a big, athletic man, a permanent tennis player—always played tennis and liked all kinds of sports, you know; and he would go to the ice arena there in the Fair Park, you know. And he devoted always a lot of time tosports——
Mr.Jenner. And was Mrs. DeMohrenschildt——
Mr.Voshinin. And she tried to do it, too.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. What else can I tell you?
Well, I know that he—the way he talks, you know, he talks for and against anything. You know, probably, about his famous lecture in the Bohemian Club?
Mr.Jenner. I'll get that in a minute. Did you say that he was argumentatively inclined so he would take the opposite side of any argument?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah, he was usually taking the opposite side of whatever anybody would say.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; and was he provocative in his argumentation?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; and I think he enjoyed it.
Mr.Jenner. He was extreme in his argumentation?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; that was his famous lecture, of course, which was some kind of a thing which was talked very much in Dallas about when he made a lecture in the Bohemian Club.
The Bohemian Club is a group of about 30 people—Dallasites—who like to argue. And he was the soul of the whole thing. And you know probably who is in there. It's Sam Ballen, and L-e-v A-r-o-n-s-o-n [spelling], Bill Hudson—I don't know, a lot of other people I have never met.
Mr.Jenner. Were you a member of the Bohemian Club?
Mr.Voshinin. No; I was not. But I was invited by George to go to the Bohemian Club. He will give a historical lecture.
Mr.Jenner. You were present on that occasion?
Mr.Voshinin. I was present on that occasion.
And George discussed the question, you know, about the Vlassov army. Thatwas an army composed of Russian—Soviet Russian prisoners of war who wanted to fight the Communists.
Mr.Jenner. What was the name of this army?
Mr.Voshinin. Vlassov [spelling] V-l-a-s-s-o-v.
And he told the story of the Vlassov army but, in between, he injected a lot of praise for such people like Himmler.
Mr.Jenner. Heinrich Himmler?
Mr.Voshinin. Heinrich Himmler. He said, "After all, I came to the conclusion that Himmler wasn't a bad boy at all."
You know, that's typically George.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think that this was sincere or do you think that he was just attempting to provoke shock?
Mr.Voshinin. I think he was attempting to provoke shock. Especially there were, at least, three Jewish people there present—Sam Ballen and Lev Aronson. I saw that Lev Aronson almost didn't—was, became red, terribly red in his face. I was afraid that the poor guy, you know, would have a stroke, You know. And George was looking into the face of Aronson and, you know, continued praising the Nazis and look what effect it has on Lev, who is a close friend of George. Of course, Lev was terribly bitter—and I understand, after that, Lev and him went to drink vodka the whole night. So, well—that's the type of person you have.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, Mr. Voshinin, I think my questioning is about concluded, but I do want to ask this general question in any event. Is there anything you think factually that hasn't been brought out that occurs to you that might be of assistance to the Commission in its investigation?
Mr.Voshinin. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Would you state it, please?
Mr.Voshinin. I think, first of all, there are persons which you did not question and which knows De Mohrenschildt, I think, much better than I do.
Mr.Jenner. Who is that?
Mr.Voshinin. For example, Mr. Basil Zavoico.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now give us that full name and spell it, please?
Mr.Voshinin. [Spelling] B-a-s-i-l—that's the first name. Second is Z-a-v-o-i-c-o—or k-o—I don't know. And he lived in Texas before and he's living now in Green Farms, Conn., his house being called Cronomere.
Mr.Jenner. Spell that, please?
Mr.Voshinin. [Spelling] C-r-o-n-o-m-e-r-e. And why I know Mr. Zavoico because his wife lived in Yugoslavia before the war and me and my wife we were close friends with her. And I think that Mr. Zavoico knows George De Mohrenschildt many years before we did, and he once even warned us against him.
Mr.Jenner. Warned you against De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; he said, "Don't be too close with De Mohrenschildt," he said, "because, who knows what he is?" He says, "He sometimes talks so much to the left, I'm not sure what he is."
And I think that he knows a lot about his life before the time we came here. I think in that time there will be a lot of things to your interest.
I don't know whether you questioned another person—it's Mr. Paul Raigorodsky.
Mr.Jenner. You've mentioned him before—at the first of this deposition?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; because Paul Raigorodsky is the first Russian immigrant that—whoever came to Dallas. And he knows absolutely everybody and he knows these people much longer time than we did.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. And he knows George pretty closely. He also lived in the Stoneleigh Hotel—and still living there.
Mr.Jenner. He is?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. And he saw George every day where we saw him only occasionally. A third person which I would suggest would be Mrs. Graff.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] G-r-a-f-f?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; Mrs. Theodore Graff—who worked for George as a secretary mostly in the time that George was in Yugoslavia. He still was, one partof the time, maintaining his office in the Republic Bank, and Mrs. Graff worked there. And I think that Mrs. Graff knows a lot about De Mohrenschildt's business. You see, my wife only worked there 2 or 3 weeks so she doesn't know much. But I understand that Mrs. Graff was there and she read a lot of his files, you know, sorting them and having no other things to do. Especially, I think that George had written his autobiography and she has seen it. I understand she has seen it. It is some kind of a novel about himself which he wanted to sell.
Then, I think you should also question a Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie who know him. Mrs. Leslie and her stepdaughter, Miss Leslie.
Mr.Jenner. Are they residents of Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. They are residents of Dallas. Yeah. Mrs. Graff is now living in Birmingham—you know, near Detroit.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes; I know. It's a suburb of Detroit. My daughter attended school in Birmingham.
Mr.Voshinin. Mrs. Graff is from Connecticut otherwise, but she was here with her husband. He was working here in Republic Bank—and that's where George's office was. She was at one time, you know, his secretary—part-time, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Where do Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie live?
Mr.Voshinin. Mrs. Leslie and Miss Leslie on Hanover.
Mr.Jenner. Hanover Street?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; Hanover Street.
Mr.Jenner. Here in Dallas?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes; they are Russian.
Mr.Jenner. They are?
Mr.Voshinin. But Miss Leslie's father was of British descent—but his wife was Russian. And I think these people, they don't know much about the De Mohrenschildts, but it's also from the same circle, you know, and all that.
Mr.Jenner. They may know something about the Oswalds, too?
Mr.Voshinin. I don't know. I don't know one way or the other.
Mr.Jenner. But they moved in this circle that you've described?
Mr.Voshinin. They moved in that circle. Now, there is one thing which always strikes me peculiar—I just talked last night with my wife about that. The last 2 years, you know, the De Mohrenschildts were going to Houston about every 4 weeks, and De Mohrenschildt was always saying, "I have to go to Houston on business." And he would say—of course, you don't ask people, you know. George didn't like to talk about what his business is you know. Never told anybody about the details and nobody, of course, asked him.
And he would say, "You know, I have to go—you know, all my business goes through Houston." On the other hand, he would say he was, you know, getting his jobs through a 5 percenter in Washington—and here he was always going to Houston, like reporting to somebody; every 4 or 5 weeks, he was always going to Houston. And as far as me and my wife heard about his business, he has no oil interest there or no business there whatsoever. But as far as he was always interested only in foreign assignments, why should he go to Houston? In other words, even before, you know, the late President was killed, you know, we were once talking this with my wife and wondering—what in the hell is he doing in Houston?
You don't get foreign assignments through Houston—not that we know about, but always he was going to Houston. And, I don't know, he never mentioned to who he goes to Houston. But, it may be possible that I can give you a name of a Russian professor in Houston who may know—may not know but may know—who knows something because ProfessorJitkoff——
Mr.Jenner. Spell it, please.
Mr.Voshinin. [Spelling] J-i-t-k-o-f-f.
Mr.Jenner. And at what institution is he a professor?
Mr.Voshinin. Rice Institute. The head of the department of the Rice Institute.
Mr.Jenner. What department?
Mr.Voshinin. The Russian Department. He can't stand George De Mohrenschildt. And I know about De Mohrenschildt being in Houston—I know, that,too, from Professor Jitkoff, which is a very, very respectable family man, a very respectable anti-Communist. As anti-Communist as could be, you know. And they told us several times that George and Jeanne dropped in—which is not her name. Her name is Eugenia. But, you know she's French. That's her baptized name, you see.
But they may know perhaps with whom they are associated in Houston. There is a vague possibility of that—because that always sounded peculiar to us, that Houston trips. Well, I think these people they live on Locke Lane [spelling] L-o-c-k-e—in Houston.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we can reach him if he is a professor at Rice Institute.
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. And they knew the De Mohrenschildts, of course, before we ever came here.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else occur to you?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I also heard from her that she wanted to sell her fashions to the Soviets. And that they went to New York to the Soviet consulate and she was asking whether they can sell any fashions to them—but, as I understand, they say they turned them down, they are not interested. And that was just before their trip to Mexico City. So, there is a slight possibility—but this is just speculation on my part—that they probably tried the Soviet consulate in Mexico City also to sell them some fashions—though I don't know, but this is possible, you know. You know, most of the Russian immigrants, like us, you know, wouldn't deal with the Soviets at all.
Mr.Jenner. You just don't want any part of them at all?
Mr.Voshinin. We don't want any part of it. Our only dealings, you know, is going there to buy dictionaries—you know, and things like that. And that we would prefer not to do in the Soviet store in New York, but rather through an immigrant store who buys it from them, you know. But the De Mohrenschildts they wouldn't have any hesitation, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Of going directly?
Mr.Voshinin. Of going directly to deal with all of them, you know.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to ask you about the Houston trips. Did the Houston trips take place during the years 1962 and 1963, up to thetime——
Mr.Voshinin. Up to their departure. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Up to the time the De Mohrenschildts left for Haiti?
Mr.Voshinin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Jenner. And it is your distinct recollection, which we can confirm, of course, or try to, that these periodic 4- to 5-week trips—a trip every 4 or 5 weeks to Houston, took place in 1962 and 1963, to the time they left, and even might have been prior to 1962?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, yeah, they may; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. When did you and your wife become quite conscious of the fact that the De Mohrenschildts were making periodic trips to Houston?
Mr.Voshinin. After Professor Jitkoff started complaining that the De Mohrenschildts became a nuisance.
Mr.Jenner. All right. And that was when?
Mr.Voshinin. And then we started recollecting about the De Mohrenschildts telling, "Oh, we have to go on business to Houston." So, that probably was late 1962.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Voshinin. You see, we go to Houston usually two times a year to visit the Jitkoffs who are dear friends of ours.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether or not these trips to Houston were being made in September of 1963?
Mr.Voshinin. In September of 1963, they were not here.
Mr.Jenner. So, they weren't here then?
Mr.Voshinin. No; they left—I don't know which month they left for Haiti—but I think they left way before September.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Do you know whether either of the De Mohrenschildts had been in this country since they left Dallas in the spring of 1963?
Mr.Voshinin. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. You don't know whether they have or haven't been?
Mr.Voshinin. I have no knowledge, no; no information about it. And I have seen, you know, Christina and her husband. You know who they are—Kirken.
Mr.Jenner. Spell it, please.
Mr.Voshinin. Or whatever he calls himself—that's Mrs. De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband. He calls himself Kirken. K-i-r-k-e-n [phonetic]; Americans call himKirten[phonetic].
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] K-a-r-t-o-n?
Mr.Voshinin. [Spelling] K-i-r-k-e-n—or o-n—I don't know. They dropped in when they came from Haiti.
Mr.Jenner. They were here recently?
Mr.Voshinin. They were here recently. They dropped by our house and they said they are on bad terms with the parents and he said they left—they couldn't stand that.
Mr.Jenner. Did either of them say anything about whether or not George De Mohrenschildt had made any statements to the effect that the FBI was responsible for the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mr.Voshinin. Oh, I heard that story; yes.
Mr.Jenner. From whom did you hear it? And give us your recollection of it.
Mr.Voshinin. I think that—uh—well, I heard it from my wife, to tell the truth.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I'll talk to her about that.
Mr.Voshinin. And she heard it, I don't know, from the Ballens, maybe—or maybe from the children.
I don't know. I think that Kirken said that George is behaving ridiculously and he said, "My father-in-law is behaving ridiculously—he talks nonsense." And he says, "We just decided to shorten our stay there because, otherwise, it would come to very unpleasant scenes."
Mr.Jenner. He was of the opinion that these fulminations or statements by George De Mohrenschildt were nonsense?
Mr.Voshinin. Sure. George talks, you know, a lot of nonsense usually about anything; but sometimes, you know, as Kirken says, he says he became quite unpleasant with his nonsense and he says he couldn't stand it. And Kirken and his wife are, I think, good Americans.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. They are okay.
Mr.Jenner. Now, is there anything else that occurs to you that you would like to add in the record that you think might be helpful or pertinent?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, not that I know at the present time,but——
Mr.Jenner. If you think of anything, we're going to be back next week and the weekafterwards——
Mr.Voshinin. Could you give me a telephone or anything?
Mr.Jenner. Well, you just call the U.S. attorney's office here and somebody representing the Commission will be here. Either I will or some other person. So all you have to do is ask for the U.S. attorney, Mr. Sanders—BarefootSanders——
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah; I know.
Mr.Jenner. And he will know, and he will put you in touch with one of us.
Mr.Voshinin. Okay. Probably my wife will recollect a lot of things.
Mr.Jenner. Now we've had some discussions off the record, is there anything we discussed off the record that I have failed to bring out that you think ought to be on the record?
Mr.Voshinin. Of what, for example?
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything we discussed that I failed then to ask you about so it would get on this transcript that the reporter is making?
Mr.Voshinin. Not that I know, unless you recall something.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything which was stated byyou——
Mr.Voshinin. You know De Mohrenschildt has here a brother?
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes. His brother—he's a professor, according to your information where?
Mr.Voshinin. Dartmouth.
Mr.Jenner. At Dartmouth College?
Mr.Voshinin. Yeah. I think he's perfectly okay—a very serious person.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, you know his three wives—his former wives?
Mr.Jenner. I've asked you about that.
Mr.Voshinin. Well, his first wife, I think lives in Paris.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Voshinin. And his second wife, I think, was a dancer or an artist of some kind; his third wife was a medical doctor and now his fourth wife.
Mr.Jenner. And his fourth wife is his present wife, is that correct?
Mr.Voshinin. Yes. I think he has a litigation going the whole time about seeing his little daughter, who is very sick. And I think the judge forebade him to see her. That's the rumor I heard.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mr.Voshinin. Well, I don't know. You ask—perhaps youhave——
Mr.Jenner. I have exhausted myself at the moment. These suggestions you have given me may provoke my having you come back and, if we do, I'll let you know.
Mr.Voshinin. Will you write my telephone number perhaps? Or, I'm just across the street you can call me any time.
Mr.Jenner. What we usually do is to have the Secret Service call you.
Mr.Voshinin. They're in the same building—two floors higher than me. They can just call me up two stories up.
Mr.Jenner. All right. We'll close this deposition now.
You have the right, Mr. Voshinin, to read your testimony when it's typed up, if you wish to do so. Perhaps there might be, when you read it over, something you either wish to add or something you want to modify in some fashion or other. It takes time to write these up. This young lady has been busy every minute. We would hope to have this perhaps written up during the course of the next week.
If you will call in—and also talk to Mr. Sanders—he will know when, and when your transcript is ready it will be available to you for examination.
Mr.Voshinin. Can I take it home and read it or do I have to come here?
Mr.Jenner. No. You may take it home only in this sense. You have the right to purchase a copy of the transcript from this young lady at whatever her usual rates are, if you want a copy.
Mr.Voshinin. I think I would like a copy and put it with my pictures and for my records to have at home.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You make arrangements with this young lady.
Mr.Voshinin. My wife will make an arrangement on that. Okay—and if there is any way I can help, please—I'd just tell everything I know without any hesitation.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I tried to pick your brain for everything I could think of.
Mr.Davis. We do appreciate it—and thank you, sir.