Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit the boys out there at any time?
Mrs.Murret. I visited out there with Marguerite.
Mr.Jenner. And that was on what; a weekend?
Mrs.Murret. I think it was. They had a party for the home out there, and the children themselves seemed to be very happy out there. It's an old place, but a very nice place, and it was run by a man and his wife. The children were included in everything, and the doors were kept open. In other words, the children were allowed to go out and play marbles on the outside, and theywent to school, you know, to school in that neighborhood. I mean they weren't confined or shut in, and they seemed to have a good program of discipline. Even though they could go out and play in the immediate area, they would come in when the bell rang for supper, but I mean they were not closed in or kept locked up or anything. She also contributed to that home, I think. I don't think they would keep those boys there free.
Mr.Jenner. You're right. In the meantime she was working; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. What was that?
Mr.Jenner. She was working?
Mrs.Murret. She was working; yes.
Mr.Jenner. In some department store or something like that here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. She at one time, but I don't know whether this was the time, but she worked at a hosiery shop on Canal Street. It might have been one of these Jean's—what they call Jean's Hosiery Shop over there on Canal Street. In fact, she was manager of that store at the time, as I recall, this hosiery store where she worked. I don't know what happened after she left that place. That was the time she married Ekdahl, in between there, and she left New Orleans and went to Texas.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know how long she had known Lee Oswald—that is, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald—before they were married?
Mrs.Murret. Well, John Edward was 2 years old when she married him, so I figured she must have known him about a year or more. Myself, I knew him, because he collected at my house, but I don't know whether she knew him at that time or not.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him before she and her husband, Edward John Pic, separated?
Mrs.Murret. I doubt it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know whether she knew him during the period of the separation and before the divorce?
Mrs.Murret. That must have been it. She must have known him during that time.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your reaction to Mr. Oswald a little more, if you will. What kind of man was he?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he was a very outward man, a man that smiled a lot, I might say. He smiled a lot, and he seemed aggressive.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say he was energetic?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes; very much. He was a good worker for Metropolitan, one of their top salesmen.
Mr.Jenner. And he was an outgoing person, you say?
Mrs.Murret. He seemed to be.
Mr.Jenner. Would you call him an extrovert?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; of course, I don't know what happened at home. I can only tell you from what I noticed when I saw him, you know, but he seemed to be very aggressive and energetic, and they seemed to be getting along all right, so far as I could tell.
Mr.Jenner. During that period of time of her marriage to Lee Oswald, did you have much contact with your sister Marguerite?
Mrs.Murret. No; not very much. Like I said, I had five children myself, and we didn't have a car; so we stayed at home a lot. Mr. Murret is a man who don't care to visit relatives too much, and we didn't visit them. They came over when they would be out riding around; in other words, they might stop by or something like that, but we didn't do much visiting.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband's given name is Charles F.; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; they call him "Dutz."
Mr.Jenner. That's his nickname?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that D-u-t-z?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and they put it in the telephone book that way, because he was in the fight game years ago. He managed some fighters, and they have a lot of contact with sportswriters, and they knew him by the name of "Dutz,"so that's why he went and put it in the telephone book, rather than Charles, so that they would know who he was, I guess.
Mr.Jenner. Does he still use that name?
Mrs.Murret. He does.
Mr.Jenner. Is your telephone listed in that name?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's what I said. It's still listed that way. His uncle gave him that nickname when he was a small child, and I always knew him by the name of "Dutz." I never call him anything else but that, but his family always called him Charles.
Mr.Jenner. What business is he in?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. What is your husband's business again?
Mrs.Murret. He works as a clerk.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything else you can remember about Lee Oswald, the father of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Murret. I don't remember anything else; no. I didn't know anything about him at all other than being an insurance clerk and coming around the house to collect insurance. He sort of maybe seemed to be a little forward maybe, I thought, but, like a lot of insurance men, maybe it helps on the debits, you know.
Mr.Jenner. He was aggressive in collecting the accounts; do you mean?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But not forward in any other respect?
Mrs.Murret. No; not that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. I mean he was a gentleman?
Mrs.Murret. As far as I know.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know anything about his family?
Mrs.Murret. I know nothing about the Oswald family. I only met one brother who was the godfather of Lee—little Lee Oswald, you know—and I think his name was Harvey, maybe. I wouldn't be sure about that.
Mr.Jenner. Harvey?
Mrs.Murret. I believe that's what it was, but that's about all I know about the Oswald family. He's the only one I knew or ever saw.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know where Harvey Oswald is now?
Mrs.Murret. He's dead now. I just saw him one time, and that was after Lee was born. He came over to the house, and I think they were friendly with Marguerite and all, but all of a sudden there was no more friendship. I don't know why.
Mr.Jenner. Did this friendship terminate while the marriage still existed, or was it afterward?
Mrs.Murret. I think afterward. I don't know whether there was any friendship with the Oswald family during this marriage or not. I couldn't say. She never spoke about it, but I do know, after the death of the brother, they had some dissension about something. I don't know what, but that ended that friendship with the Oswalds.
Mr.Jenner. As far as you know or were advised, that was never repaired, was it?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. Your sister married Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And your recollection of that event is what?
Mrs.Murret. What do you mean?
Mr.Jenner. What do you remember about that incident?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't know anything about the marriage at all, other than what you have told me about it. I only met Mr. Ekdahl one time, and they were about to be married about that time it seems like, and they say that Mr. Ekdahl was a sick man and had a bad heart, and he was a little older than she was, and she didn't seem very enthusiastic about marrying Mr. Ekdahl, and that's when his sister came down here and she liked Marguerite a lot, and she said, "Why don't you go ahead and marry him? He is lonesome," and so forth, so she just decided, I guess, to marry Ed.
Mr.Jenner. His name was Edward Ekdahl?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; his name was Edward Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. And it is your best recollection that you met him once before the marriage?
Mrs.Murret. That's all I saw him; yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had your sister talked to you about him prior to the marriage?
Mrs.Murret. She spoke to me about him, I think. He was a high salaried man, that I know, and he did research work for Texas Electric, I think, and of course I don't think things worked out maybe too well for them, I mean, about his way of giving her money and so forth.
I guess she thought things would be different after their marriage. You see, he was sort of tight, I think, with his money. She would go to the grocery store, but he would hold the money, and of course she didn't like that part of it, I guess you know, so then she went around with Mr. Ekdahl in his travels for the company and she also took Lee with her wherever she had to go. And then Lee became of school age, and she had these other two boys in the Chamberlin-Hunt College in Mississippi.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a military school?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and it's a high-priced military school, with beautiful uniforms and so forth, and she used her own money for these boys to go to military school. Mr. Ekdahl didn't take on that responsibility. He didn't take on any obligation like that at all, as far as I know. She said he didn't even take Lee as an obligation.
Now, whether this was all her idea or not, I don't know, because she is very independent about things. I don't know, but that's the way I understood it was, so then anyway, Lee traveled with her all over until he became of school age.
During the summertime she rented a place at Covington so that she could have her other two boys with her on vacation.
Mr.Jenner. Where is Covington?
Mrs.Murret. Covington is right out of New Orleans, not too far away, over the causeway. People more or less use it as a summer resort, and they rent homes there, just like at Biloxi and Gulfport, and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, it's off in that direction?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; so she rented a place over there, and she stayed there with the boys in the summer.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this was when she was married to Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; she was married to Ekdahl then.
Mr.Jenner. Did they visit you once in a while?
Mrs.Murret. With Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. No; never. She was living in Texas at that time, but this was during the summer that she stayed at Covington.
Mr.Jenner. Where was Mr. Ekdahl during the summer when she was at Covington?
Mrs.Murret. Mr. Ekdahl was traveling for the company, but she couldn't travel with him because she had the boys during vacation time, and then Lee became of school age and he had to go to school. Now, at that time houses were hard to get, and even hotel rooms, I mean, when you were traveling and so forth, so she agreed to stay over in Covington and send Lee to school in Covington rather than go back to Texas. Now, whether she stayed with Lee when he went to school or not, I don't know.
The next I heard, well, she was back in Texas. Now, I don't know about that, how that came about, but she had this duplex. Now, if she had bought this duplex or not at one time herself, I don't know, but she had spoke something about buying a duplex.
Mr.Jenner. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. No; in Texas, Fort Worth. So it seems like—this is what she told me; that's how I knew so much of her family life, from what she told me. So then, she told me that when they left Covington, they went back to Texas to this duplex, and now, she lived either in the upper or lower part of this duplex, but anyway, one morning she was outside in the yard and this lady who lived either in the upper or lower, whichever way it was, came out into the yard and my sisterintroduced herself as Mrs. Ekdahl, and this lady answered instead, "You are not the Mrs. Ekdahl that I know."
Well, you can put two and two together there. Now, I am only repeating what she told me, so then she got sort of scouting around, you know what I mean, and she found out different things around there, and she accused him of having someone in this house while she was over in Covington. So then she got after him and he denied everything about that, so then she said, "Well," and she just kept eyeing up the situation, you know, and one time she found something in his pockets. He had a train ticket to go on one of his trips, and she called the place and found out that he had gotten two tickets, so she told him that she would drive him to the train station, and he insisted that she not drive him, that he could go alone, but she said, well, no, she wanted to take him, and he said, no, that that would be too much trouble and silly. Well, anyway, I think she did drive him there, and when they got to the train station, I think she thought that whoever it was holding the other ticket had already picked it up, this other ticket, and was already on the train, so Mr. Ekdahl picked up his ticket and went on, and I guess she always thought he wasn't true to her after that, you see, so she said one night she followed Mr.Ekdahl——
Mr.Jenner. Who?
Mrs.Murret. She did in her car, or somebody's car, and John, and I don't know if it was one of John's friends or Robert's, but anyway they followed Mr. Ekdahl, and they saw him go into this house, and she waited a few minutes on the outside, and then she had one of the boys run up the steps, and he hollered, "Western Union," and when he hollered, "Western Union," this woman opened the door, and when she opened the door, pushed the door back, Mr. Ekdahl was sitting in the living room. When he left her, he was fully dressed, but his coat and tie and shirt was off, and he had his athletic shirt on. He had his coat and top shirt off and so forth, and he was sitting in there, so she questioned him about that, and he said he was there on business, which was absurd, because you know you don't disrobe yourself on business, so that's what started off the Ekdahl case, and then of course she wanted to get a divorce from him right away, you see, and that's why I say she's quick, you see, because I would not have gotten a divorce. I would have got a separation, because he was making a big salary, and so forth, but anyway, she wanted a divorce it seemed like, but it seemed like he had connections and he must have gone to get the divorce before she could get it, or whatever it was. She had gone to her pastor and told her pastor about it, and her pastor told her that if she would press this case against Ekdahl, that he would have a heart attack and that would make her a murderer, that she would be the cause of him dying, so he was in the hospital, I think, so she went to the hospital to see him, and I think they had a roarup there at the hospital. I don't know what that was all about because, you see, I don't know anything about all of that except what she told me. So then she got a divorce from Mr. Ekdahl, and she settled for not too very much and it wasn't very long before Mr. Ekdahl died, so that was the end of the Ekdahl affair.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, let me take you back to the beginning now for a few moments, if you will. We had Lee over at the Bethlehem orphanage after he left the house; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He was there when he was five years old, and he stayed there until she married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, he was in the home awhile first. I mean, he was at my house, I would say, between 1½ and 2 years, and then I couldn't keep him any more. I guess there must have been some dissension or something.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of dissension?
Mrs.Murret. She got angry or something, and I might have told her to take her child, you know, or whatever it was, so she put him in with the other two boys in the home then.
Mr.Jenner. She was quick tempered, would you say?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that's what I mean; yes.
Mr.Jenner. She would flare up in a moment; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; you see, she was always right. She couldn't take anythingfrom anybody, in other words, or you might say she was not reasonable, and especially in some things that are right, because you can keep doing and doing and doing, but then you get to the point where the other party never seems to be doing anything.
Mr.Jenner. She didn't seem to exhibit a full measure of appreciation that was warranted, is that what you mean?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I didn't keep the child for anything like that. I kept him for himself and for the love of God, and so forth, and we liked the child, but of course we had our own obligation with our own children, and this was her life. She made her own life.
Of course, I do say that maybe she made it, and then she didn't make it, because you see, it's just the way things happened. Now, whether she was the cause of these things happening or not, I don't know, but she seemed to be a victim of all these circumstances.
Mr.Jenner. But they kept repeating themselves, a number of them; isn't that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they kept coming along; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, she then married Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you had met him only once, I believe you said?
Mrs.Murret. Once; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Were you at the wedding?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, no; I didn't go to the wedding. They were married in Texas.
Mr.Jenner. Were you advised that she was about to marry him?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think I knew that she was about to marry him; no, sir. I just received a picture of her and Ekdahl on their wedding trip, and she had written on it, "Happily married," and she sent a picture of the house that they lived in. It was a very nice place, and they seemed to be doing O.K., you know.
Mr.Jenner. Were they married here in New Orleans, or were they married in Texas?
Mrs.Murret. I imagine they were married in Texas. Mr. Ekdahl was a divorced man. I guess he was a divorced man. He had to be. I don't know, but I don't think he could get married without being divorced. He had a son.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I know he did, and his people were Boston people, were they not?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. I know she met his sister. It was her, his sister, that sort of persuaded her that she ought to go ahead and marry him. She went up to see them, I think.
Mr.Jenner. In Boston?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You think his sister influenced her a lot?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Jenner. But she was somewhat disappointed in Mr. Ekdahl insofar as his handling of the family funds was concerned; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I imagine she was.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I don't want you to imagine. What impression did you get from what she said to you?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she just said that she thought things would be different, that since he was a high-salaried man, she didn't think she would have the kind of life she was living, like pinching pennies, and having to ask him for everything that she wanted. I think she was under the impression that he would give her so much, or I don't know anything about the amounts, you know, but that's what I gathered from what she told me.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, I think you said that he did not assume responsibility for any of the three children; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's what she said.
Mr.Jenner. And she told you when she placed her two boys, John and Robert, in the military school, what was the name of that?
Mrs.Murret. Chamberlin-Hunt Academy.
Mr.Jenner. That she was assuming the responsibility of paying their way?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she did. She always had a lot of character. That I cansay about her, you know, for a woman alone. She would have never done anything she wasn't supposed to do, even though she was in dire circumstances, and so forth, but one thing would come on like that, and she would just act up very quickly, like I told you, if she didn't like something happening or something you did or said, something like that. Of course, there are always two sides to every story, and I don't know the other side. I only know one side.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that Lee lived with you from about 1939 to 1941?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I guess it was along in there. It's hard to remember those dates exactly, that's been so long ago.
Mr.Jenner. Did he live at any time at 1010 Bartholomew Street in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; they did. That's the house I was trying to recollect that she bought, I think, after she left this Alvar Street residence. She bought this house on Bartholomew.
Mr.Jenner. And she lived there about a year; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know how long she lived there.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall her living at 2136 Broadway in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. What street?
Mr.Jenner. Broadway.
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. 2136 Broadway?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. That was just a month, about the middle of August to about the 10th of September 1942.
Mrs.Murret. I know nothing of that.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall their residing at 227 Atlantic Avenue in Algiers?
Mrs.Murret. No, I don't. That's possibly where the boys were over there. Is that an orphanage, or whatever it was?
Mr.Jenner. I don't know. Is there an orphanage over at Algiers?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That's not the Bethlehem place, is it?
Mrs.Murret. No, I don't know what orphanage that was, but they were over there in Algiers, and then they were transferred from Algiers to Bethlehem down here in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Where is Bethlehem located, this Bethlehem institution?
Mrs.Murret. It's way down off of St. Claude Street somewhere, way down on the other end of town. I don't think it's there any more. It could be. It was a very old place.
Mr.Jenner. I have said that she married Mr. Ekdahl in 1948. I am afraid I am wrong about that. I think that was 1945 that she married him, which squares more with your recollection.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, I think so, because that's what I thought. Lee was around 5, and you had him down as 8, and I couldn't recollect having him at 8 years old.
Mr.Jenner. You were right in your recollection. Now, what town in Texas was it that they moved to?
Mrs.Murret. I think it was Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. They moved to Fort Worth?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor? Does that refresh your recollection on that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she lived a couple of places, you know. Do you mean after she married Mr. Ekdahl and moved to Texas, to Fort Worth?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. I don't know the address at that time. I just don't recollect that address, because she lived in some other places too. I really don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall whether she ever lived in Dallas?
Mrs.Murret. I never knew she lived in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Is the town of Benbrook, Tex., familiar to you?
Mrs.Murret. No; you see, I hadn't heard from her. You see, she went from New York to Texas. That was about 2 years later, I think. I just don't know that. I remember her saying that she bought some property some place in Texas, and she couldn't keep it up, and she probably mortgaged it to this man on arental basis, or something like that, and they had some trouble with that; I don't know. Don't you get tired listening to this merry-go-round?
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Murret, lawyers don't get tired.
Mrs.Murret. It would be too bad if you did.
Mr.Jenner. We are under the impression that they moved to Dallas, Tex., first and lived on Victor Street, 4801 Victor Street, in 1945 up until 1946, and then they moved to Fort Worth.
Mrs.Murret. Oh.
Mr.Jenner. I am not attempting to give you information, now; I am just asking if you recall that, or if you ever knew that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that could be; yes, sir; but I thought they had gone to Fort Worth myself. That's what I thought.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't hear much from her during that time, did you?
Mrs.Murret. No; during those years I didn't hear much from her. Maybe she would send a card or a picture or something like that, but we didn't correspond.
Mr.Jenner. You say she sent you a picture of the house where she was living with Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; and she sent me a picture of herself and the boys around Christmas time, and that's about all.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any pictures of the family, album pictures or snapshots of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Murret. Of Lee Harvey?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. Or Mr. Ekdahl.
Mrs.Murret. I have her picture with Mr. Ekdahl when they were married.
Mr.Jenner. I wonder if you would give that to your husband and let him bring that in the morning when he comes in?
Mrs.Murret. The snapshot?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; and will you look hard and see if you have any other pictures with your children taken when they were small with Lee, and that sort of thing? (The snapshot of Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl was produced by Mrs. Murret and was marked and admitted in evidence on her affidavit as Lillian Murret Exhibit No. 1.)
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't have any of my children with Lee when he was living with us. I have Mr. and Mrs. Ekdahl. She sent that picture, where she wrote on it, "Happily married." Like I say, I can't recollect her living in Dallas, in that home in Dallas. I always thought it was Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. It appears now that at least during or sometime in 1946, she lived in Covington, La., at 600 West 24th Street, and at 311 Vermont Street in Covington. Now, your recollection of that is that this was in the summer of 1946; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And she brought her three boys together with her there; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At this time, her husband Ekdahl had not joined her, had he?
Mrs.Murret. Not that I know of. I assume he was out on his business, you know, while they were spending the summer over there. He came in periodically every 2 weeks, or every week, or whatever it was; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. It was your impression that he was a research man for what company?
Mrs.Murret. A sick man?
Mr.Jenner. No; a research man.
Mrs.Murret. He did research for Texas Electric, and she told me his salary was over $1,000 a month.
Mr.Jenner. Which is a substantial amount of money; right?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, I imagine so, but sometimes you can get along on $250 better than $1,000.
Mr.Jenner. That's right. Now, let me delve into that a little bit. If it was $1,000 a month, she at that time regarded it as a very substantial income; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you people as well would regard that as a substantial income; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. We people?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, the Murret family.
Mrs.Murret. My family?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; we would think we were millionaires if we had that much money, but still I think we always did a lot with our money. Our main reason was for our family. That's why my husband wanted to educate his children. That was his main reason, because he knew how tough it is in the outside world, so he wanted them at least to have that much. Of course, these are children who liked to go to school and who liked to study. You take this girl out there, she is studying all the time.
Mr.Jenner. You mean your daughter who is outside waiting for you now?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; she is still studying, and Gene he is still studying. Like I said before, we all worked together to see that everybody got his chance. John was a top athlete in school, and then he went to St. Louis U.
Mr.Jenner. St. Louis?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he was one of the few boys that ever got a scholarship to St. Louis U. for basketball, but he only went there for about a year, and they wanted him to play at Loyola, and they kept after him when he came here on a visit, so he left St. Louis and went to Loyola.
Mr.Jenner. Loyola of Chicago?
Mrs.Murret. No; Loyola of New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mrs.Murret. St. Louis University, the coach there wouldn't let him play baseball, and baseball was his love. He was a very good basketball player too, but he loved to play ball. He even played with the St. Louis Cardinals on a farm team, but he saw he would never really get anywhere as an outfielder, so he quit.
Mr.Jenner. But he was good enough to play on one of the St. Louis Cardinals farm teams; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. He was a good athlete. He was good at ball, baseball and basketball, and in fact, he went to Murray, Ky. He was one of the boys selected from the South. They had a North and South game, and he was selected from the southern section. It was an all-star game of some kind. He just won a trip to Rome with the Swift Co.
Mr.Jenner. He works for the Swift Co. now?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. He and his wife are leaving this Saturday.
Mr.Jenner. How nice.
Mrs.Murret. He earned it. I mean, he didn't win it; he earned it.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you say that while Marguerite was in Covington with the three boys in the summer of 1946, that Mr. Ekdahl continued in his travels in connection with his business?
Mrs.Murret. I assume he did; that's what he said. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. At least he wasn't there with her and the boys?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. That was your information, that she had her boys at Covington in the summer of 1946, during vacation, but that her husband Mr. Ekdahl was not in Covington that summer; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I don't think he was. I can't say whether he was or not, because I don't know, but she said he wasn't. I assume he was on one of these trips he made in his business, and that's why she was over there with the boys, but I don't know any of that myself. I don't think I even knew she was in Covington until I met her 1 day in town.
Mr.Jenner. Here in New Orleans?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was that during that summer vacation period?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she told you then that they were in Covington?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had she not tried to reach you in the meantime?
Mrs.Murret. No; she had not.
Mr.Jenner. Is Covington very far away?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. How far away is it?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, about 100-some-odd miles. It isn't very far away.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything to you at that time as to how she was getting along with her husband?
Mrs.Murret. Nothing. She just mentioned the boys being on vacation over there, and Lee becoming of school age, and she thought she would just stay there while he went to school.
Mr.Jenner. You mean the fall term, when she would put him in school in Covington, La.?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did she do that?
Mrs.Murret. I couldn't say whether he went to school there or not. The next I heard is when she left Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. When she left Ekdahl?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then to summarize her life with Ekdahl, she married him and she took the boys out, the two older boys, out of the orphanage and put them in military school in Mississippi; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At her own expense?
Mrs.Murret. So she said.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; so she said. That's what she told you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She kept Lee with her; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was he at that time around 5 years old?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Or maybe a little older?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she had accompanied her husband at least for a time in his travels; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she had the boy Lee with her and Mr. Ekdahl; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. It is your impression that Ekdahl did not support Lee, but that she had to support him; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. I thought, at least she told me, that he did not support Lee either. I thought she told me that. I may be wrong on that.
Mr.Jenner. Was Ekdahl a man of formal education beyond grammar school?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know anything about Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. You don't know?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. But it was your impression that he was previously married and had a son; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She met him here in New Orleans; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You don't know under what circumstances, though, do you?
Mrs.Murret. I don't know; no, sir.
Mr.Jenner. She spoke to you nothing about the fact that he had a bad heart?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, she told me that. She said he had a bad heart; a very bad heart, I believe she said.
Mr.Jenner. And the man's sister had come down from Boston, and she approved of Marguerite, and she urged Mr. Ekdahl to marry her; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And they did marry?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. No children were born of that marriage?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't think she was married to him very long.
Mr.Jenner. They were divorced in 1948, I believe; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't know about the date on that.
Mr.Jenner. But they weren't married very long, and that marriage was not, as far as you know, an entirely smooth one, was it?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I only know what she told me. She told me what went on.
Mr.Jenner. And you have already told us about that.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that was the reason for the divorce.
Mr.Jenner. Had she sold her house that she had here in New Orleans at the time she married Ekdahl?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think she did. She sold the Alvar Street home and moved into the Bartholomew Street home, which was a small house. It was a very low-priced residence.
Mr.Jenner. At 1010 Bartholomew?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. And then she sold that at a profit; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that's what she said, and that was something else about her; she started sort of getting into the business of buying property and selling it and making money off of it and so forth, but things don't just work out the way you want them to sometimes, the way you would like them to work out.
Mr.Jenner. Did she also undertake to sell insurance at one time?
Mrs.Murret. She said she did. The last time she was here, she said she was selling insurance, but whether or not she did I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You mean last fall; when she was here last fall?
Mrs.Murret. I guess it was in the fall that she was here; yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was before the assassination?
Mrs.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. She said then that she was selling insurance?
Mrs.Murret. Yes. That was after we hadn't heard from them for a very long time. I didn't even know that Lee was in the service, and so forth, and then one day he called me up from the bus station here, but during that time we hadn't heard from them until he called me from the bus station here and said he was in town and wanted a place to stay. Now, my daughter's husband was going over to Texas to a coaching school, I think to coach at Beaumont High, so we asked him if he would call them when he got over there and maybe visit and find out how they were getting along, and he did telephone, but he wasn't able to go out to the house, but they told him that there had been an accident; that she had been working in a candy shop and a glass jar fell on her nose, and that she had sustained other injuries. So he told us about that, and I wrote to her, and I sent her money, and I made up a box of clothing of whatever I thought she might need and so forth, a lot of things, and sent them to her, and every week I would send what I could, $5, $10, or whatever it was.
Mr.Jenner. When was that, Mrs. Murret? Was that in 1962 or 1963?
Mrs.Murret. That was while he was in the Marines, still in the Marines, because she said at that time she was trying to get Lee out of the Marines, but his time was nearly up, and she was pleading a hardship case, to get Lee out so he could give her some support. Now, that was over the telephone, I think.
Mr.Jenner. That was a telephone conversation you had with her?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was this then in this spring; the late spring of 1959?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Because he got out of the service in September of 1959.
Mrs.Murret. That's right, because after he defected here, she visited here. Now, when I talked to her over the telephone, and she told me what it was costing her financially and everything, that's when they let him out of the service, right after that, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; in September of 1959.
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir, and so then Lee came home, and she was living in this one room; so Lee stayed there 1 or 2 days, whatever it was, and then he said, "Well, this is not for me."
Mr.Jenner. Who said that?
Mrs.Murret. Lee said that. Lee had money that he had saved. He had saved over $1,000 or $1,400—I don't know the amount—but after he got home and stayed there 1 day, he said, "Well, this is not for me; I'm leaving."
Mr.Jenner. Lee said that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; so he left. She thought he was coming to New Orleans; so she called me and she said that he had left by bus, and that she thought he was coming to New Orleans, and that he had worked as a runner when he was here for a while for Tujague's, and she thought he might be coming here for that reason, and that he may stop at my house, but not to tell him that she had called me, but Lee never did stop at the house. If he did, I didn't know it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he call you?
Mrs.Murret. No; he didn't call. I never heard from him, and I was waiting, and I have always felt that if he had only stopped at the house, you know, this might not have happened.
Mr.Jenner. What do you think would have happened if he had stopped by or called?
Mrs.Murret. I think we might have been able to help him get a job, or maybe we couldn't have done anything; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you would have tried, anyhow.
Mrs.Murret. Yes; anyway, we didn't see Lee, and I had to go out that afternoon and I was under the impression, I thought maybe he did come, you know, pass by, and I asked some children in the block if they had seen somebody in the house and they said yes, that they saw someone with a small suitcase, but afterward I thought it was the Fuller brush man. I thought that afterward. So then I didn't know anything any more about Lee.
Mr.Jenner. Could we stop there a minute and go back over this? After the divorce from Ekdahl, did she continue to live in Texas?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, and that's another thing. We felt that if she could have gotten along with Ekdahl, that they would have all been together. Lee would have had someone to look up to as a father, and so forth, and things might have been different, but you can't go by what could have happened. I guess sometimes you make your own troubles.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, after Ekdahl left and they were divorced, then she remained in touch with you, but she didn't return here?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. And then, at that time, she would have had her son, Lee, and her son, John, and her son, Robert, with her; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All living in in their home in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What, if anything, did Marguerite tell you about the way she brought Lee up; I mean with regard to whether he was to stay in the house after school, and things like that?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she told me that she had trained Lee to stay in the house; to stay close to home when she wasn't there; and even to run home from school and remain in the house or near the house. She said she thought it would be safer to have him just do a few chores in the house, like taking the garbage cans out and things like that, than to have him outside playing when she wasn't there. She figured he wouldn't get in any trouble in the house. Maybe she thought she was making it safer for him by doing that, rather than being out with other children, but I don't know. I guess that's what happened. He just got in the habit of staying alone like that. That's probably the time that he got like that; he was with himself so much.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, however, you heard from your sister from time to time?
Mrs.Murret. What's that?
Mr.Jenner. You heard from your sister from time to time during all of this period, didn't you?
Mrs.Murret. Well, every now and then, but after she had left Ekdahl, I didn't hear from her too much. I don't know what went on. I think Robert worked at some supermarket, and so forth. He had to support the family, orwhatever it was, and then I believe he graduated from high school, Robert did, and then I think he was in love with some little Italian girl who was a crippled girl, and she told me that the family liked Robert a lot and they were trying to get the two together to get married, but she wanted to break that up because the girl was crippled, but Robert said he loved the girl, but she was thinking that he was young and he just thought he loved the girl, and maybe if he did marry her he would find out that he didn't like her because of her being handicapped, and all that happened in there. I don't know all the details, but, anyway, Robert went in the Marines, and that ended that. He went in the Marines on his 17th birthday, as I recall.
Mr.Jenner. The same as Lee Harvey?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; that must have been right after graduation. Robert was sort of a nice-looking boy, I think, but, anyway, she told me that these Italian people were trying to make a marriage between Robert and this handicapped girl. That's what she said. I don't know anything about that, really; so then Robert went in the marines, and she got a job in New York. They went to New York about that time, and she got a job with the same people that she had been working for here.
Mr.Jenner. Hosiery?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; it was the same people, but Lee didn't want to go to school over there; so he was a sort of a problem by not going to school, and one day when she was at work they came to the apartment and they got him and they took him off and put him in this place, and she had to get a lawyer, and the lawyer got him out of the place, and he told her that she had better get out of New York as fast as she could with this boy, and that's all I know about that story. And then it must have been on the way back—I didn't even know she had went to New York, but anyway, on the way back she must have come looking for a place to stay here in New Orleans, and she came to my house and we put her up for I don't know how long. It was during that time that Robert was getting out of the marines, because Robert met her at my house after she had been staying there a couple of weeks or a month, or whatever it was, and they all went back to Texas, and I didn't hear from them for a while.
Mr.Jenner. Let me interrupt you here a minute, Mrs. Murret. I will get back to that again in a moment. According to your story, when Ekdahl died, they remained in Texas until they went to New York; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I imagine that was after she separated and after Robert graduated from high school. I assume that was the time she went to New York. I don't know if I'm right on that or not.
Mr.Jenner. Does the late summer of 1952 refresh your recollection as to when she went to New York?
Mrs.Murret. 1952?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; 1952, when she went to New York.
Mrs.Murret. Well, she was living here—let'ssee——
Mr.Jenner. Well, she was living in Fort Worth before going to New York, I believe. Do you think that would have been in the summer of 1952?
Mrs.Murret. I can't recollect that. Maybe if you give me a lead, I might remember.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name of Ewing Street in Fort Worth, Tex., familiar to you?
Mrs.Murret. No; I don't know that one.
Mr.Jenner. Does Eighth Avenue refresh your recollection any as to an address where they lived in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Murret. I never heard from her at that address, unless that was the house that she bought, and she was having trouble with the party that bought it.
Mr.Jenner. You mean she was having trouble with the purchaser?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; he was supposed to pay rent to her. You see, she always wanted to do everything herself, and he wasn't paying her the rent, and I don't think they was paying the other, and they lost out on the deal.
Mr.Jenner. She reported that to you?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she told me about that. Now, I don't know if that's thesame place, the same house or not, but that was one house that she spoke about.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name Mrs. Beverly Richardson familiar to you?
Mrs.Murret. I never heard of her.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Llewellyn Merritt?
Mrs.Murret. I never heard of her.
Mr.Jenner. Patricia Aarons?
Mrs.Murret. I never heard of her.
Mr.Jenner. Herman Conway?
Mrs.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Thomas W. Turner?
Mrs.Murret. I never heard of him.
Mr.Jenner. While Mr. Ekdahl was living with her, of course, he was supporting the family, but after he left, then that was left up to her; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. What?
Mr.Jenner. She had to support the family when Mr. Ekdahl left; is that right?
Mrs.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. She got some assistance from her sons, did she?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I think Robert was working at a supermarket, and she had to make him give her his salary, and I don't know whether John was in the Coast Guard at the time or not. I don't think he contributed anything—John, but I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Was it your impression that about that time she was becoming increasingly despondent with life?
Mrs.Murret. I wouldn't say that. She seemed to be a person, or rather, she was a person who adjusted very easily to situations.
Mr.Jenner. She adjusted easily?
Mrs.Murret. She knew she had to do something about these things; that she had to get out and work, and so forth, to buy these boys things that they needed and to keep them going. Of course, I guess it was hard, naturally. It's hard for any woman, you know, to try to support three boys, and I don't think they ever appreciate what you do for them.
Mr.Jenner. What makes you say that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she told me that the boys weren't helping out, I mean, John. Now, I don't know if John was married right about then or not, but I don't think he was helping out at home at all. If it had been my son, I know he would have stayed with me. He wouldn't have run out. Of course, maybe John had a family and maybe he couldn't help, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Did she talk to you about that, or seem despondent because her children didn't help her?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; she told me about it. Now, after Robert got married, she stayed with Robert for a while, but I think there was a little friction between her and his wife, or something. I don't know about that, except what she told me. Of course, there are always two sides to every story. I don't know. You can only repeat what one party tells you. In a way, I don't think those children showed the proper respect for their mother, and I don't think that's right regardless of the hard time she was having raising them, because I guess she was a little demanding on them at times, and I think children should have the proper respect for their parents. I know no matter what my children did, I would still love them. Mr. Murret is a good family man too, and there's nothing he wouldn't do for his children, and I have heard him tell them that no matter what happens don't you ever talk about anybody's mother, and things like that.
Mr.Jenner. Was it during this period before she moved to New York that she told you she had, as you put it, trained Lee to stay in the house?
Mrs.Murret. Well, I don't know exactly when you would say that was, but I think that's one reason why I know that Lee was so quiet; he was so much by himself, without playing with other children. She did tell me that she told Robert to come right home from school and things like that, because she thought it would be safer than being outside playing, but I don't know exactly when it was she was telling me that. I think that was while they were livingover in Fort Worth, but anyway, she was having a hard time of it over there, and she either wrote me or called me—I don't remember which, but anyway, I told her that I would help her out, to send Lee down here for a while, and she sent Lee by train over here, and the train was about 2 hours late.
Mr.Jenner. Where did he come from at that time, from Texas?
Mrs.Murret. From Texas; yes, sir, and I asked him, I said, "Lee did you meet anyone on the train? Did you talk to anybody?" And he said, "No, I didn't talk to anybody. My mother told me not to talk to anybody." Of course, that's a good thing sometimes, not to talk to strangers, but I guess that was one of the reasons he was so much by himself. Anyway, he stayed with us for a while.
Mr.Jenner. For how long?
Mrs.Murret. About 2 weeks, 3 weeks, maybe more, until she got on her feet, and we took Lee out to ball games and bought him things, and we tried to make him happy, but it seemed like he just didn't want to get out of the house. I mean, he wouldn't go out and play. He would just rather stay in the house and read or something.
Mr.Jenner. He wouldn't want to go out and play with the other children?
Mrs.Murret. No, he wouldn't. We didn't have a television. Even though I had a husband, my sister always seemed to have more than I had. She was working, and somehow she had an automobile and a television and things that I didn't have. It was years after television had come out before we had one. We did have a radio, and Lee would take it in the back room and listen to the radio and read. He would read funnybooks and I would try to get him to go outside and play with the other children, but he wouldn't go out, so finally I just made him get out, so he did for a day or so, but then he came right back in and would go right back to reading and listening to the radio, and I practically pushed him out again, because I didn't think it was healthy for him to stay in the house all the time, just to stay in that room by himself, but finally I decided that that was what he wanted, that that was his way of life, what he wanted to do, and there wasn't much I could do about it.
We took him out after that, but he didn't seem to enjoy himself, so finally I told her to come and get him, that we didn't like for him to be there any more, because we had tried to do all we could for him. Now, maybe she thought we didn't like him, but that wasn't it. It was just that he wouldn't go out and play, and he wanted to be alone in that room all the time, and he wouldn't even talk to the other children, and he was obviously very unhappy, but anyway she came down and got him. In fact, he told her to come and get him.
Mr.Jenner. How do you know that?
Mrs.Murret. Because I saw the letter.
Mr.Jenner. He wrote a letter to her asking her to come and get him?
Mrs.Murret. Yes; I wasn't supposed to see the letter, but I did.
Mr.Jenner. You saw the letter before it was mailed?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And he expressed in that letter some discomfort in being at your home, did he?
Mrs.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he was under the impression that you didn't like him?
Mrs.Murret. I guess so, because he wrote and told her that nobody around there liked him, and here everyone was knocking themselves out for him.
Mr.Jenner. Where was your sister living at that time, in Fort Worth?
Mrs.Murret. I think so; yes.
Mr.Jenner. On the occasion that she came from New York and stopped off in New Orleans, did she stay with you for a few days?
Mrs.Murret. Well, she stayed with me until she found an apartment.
Mr.Jenner. That was in your home at 757 French Street?
Mrs.Murret. Yes, sir; and that address was changed to 809 French Street.
Mr.Jenner. How was that?
Mrs.Murret. Well, it was the same house, but they changed the numbering of that block, but it was the same residence. They changed it to the 700 block.
Mr.Jenner. And how long did she stay with you on that occasion?
Mrs.Murret. Well, that must have been 2 weeks, 3 weeks. She was looking for a place to stay, and Robert was coming out of the service, and so that's when she found this place over on Exchange Alley before Robert came in, and she met Robert at my house, and they went right over to the apartment at Exchange Alley that she had found, but Robert left. He wouldn't stay in New Orleans.