Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me how many times, up at your house, you were interviewed either by yourself or when your mother was there?
MissMurret. I think the FBI was there twice primarily for my mother, and I talked to one of the Secret Service men once myself. My mother was there, I mean, but he was talking to me.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your recollection that is all, the only time that either the Secret Service or the FBI have been in touch with you?
MissMurret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. If you can't think of anything else that you want to add at this point, I don't have any other questions. I would like to thank you very much for the cooperation that you have given to us. I want to express on behalf of the Commission our thanks for coming here and being as cooperative as you have been.
The testimony of Charles Murret was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Charles Murret, 757 French Street, New Orleans, after first being duly sworn testified as follows:
Mr.Jenner. You are Charles Murret, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you live at 757 French Street in New Orleans, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Murret, Mr. Rankin, general counsel of the Commission, transmitted to Mrs. Lillian Murret, who is your wife, a letter in which he enclosed Senate Joint Resolution 137, authorizing the creation of a Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; Executive Order No. 11130 of President Lyndon B. Johnson, appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and duties, and a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take testimony before the Commission and also by way of deposition, such as this one. Did she receive those?
Mr.Murret. Yes; she did.
Mr.Jenner. And did you see them, and read them?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. You did read them?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., member of the legal staff of the Commission, and the Commission is now performing its duties of making inquiries of the various people such as you, who, during their lifetime, came into contact, in the ordinary course of their lives, with various people who are part of this ball of wax. We are looking into the background of Lee Harvey Oswald in an attempt to determine if possible the motive for this tragic event which occurred November 22, 1963, which of course was the assassination of the President. In that connection, we would like to ask you a few questions about what you know, if anything, in that regard.
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. First, do you have a nickname?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is that nickname?
Mr.Murret. Dutz.
Mr.Jenner. Dutz?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How do you spell that?
Mr.Murret. D-u-t-z. That's a name that my uncle gave me years ago and it caught on, with me being in the fight game and all, and it just stuck with me.
Mr.Jenner. You say your uncle gave you that nickname?
Mr.Murret. Yes; he was the one that gave me that name, and it stuck.
Mr.Jenner. Did you do much prizefighting?
Mr.Murret. No; oh, I had a couple of bouts, but I never did make a career of it, or anything.
Mr.Jenner. How old a man are you?
Mr.Murret. 63; just made 63.
Mr.Jenner. You were born and raised in Louisiana?
Mr.Murret. Yes; in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. And your family were all born Americans?
Mr.Murret. Right.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, you have a fine family.
Mr.Murret. Thank you very much.
Mr.Jenner. Your wife and your children are very proud of you, by the way.
Mr.Murret. Thank you.
Mr.Jenner. How many children do you have, four or five?
Mr.Murret. Five.
Mr.Jenner. You have one who is studying for the priesthood, is that right?
Mr.Murret. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And he's over in Mobile studying, is that right?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. He finished law school before he entered this institute in Mobile, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes. He enrolled in the service. He had this 1-A hanging over him, so he just went in and put in his 2 years, and came back, and to my surprise he never took a leave, but he went on back to college, and he got all kinds of honors in college, and then he decided to be a priest and enrolled with the Jesuits over at Mobile.
Mr.Jenner. And you have another son who is, I believe, with the Squibb Co., is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes; that's John. He's with Squibb & Co. now.
Mr.Jenner. And I understand that he is also a pretty good baseball player, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have three boys and two girls, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes; three boys and two girls.
Mr.Jenner. Were all three boys interested in athletics?
Mr.Murret. Well, yes.
Mr.Jenner. All interested in baseball?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had baseball equipment, like gloves and things?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What are your boys, right handed or left handed?
Mr.Murret. They are all right handed.
Mr.Jenner. Did they ever loan their equipment, particularly gloves, to Lee Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Not that you know of?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think it's no secret that Mrs. Murret, your wife, did lend one of their gloves to Lee Harvey Oswald one time to play ball when he was in high school; did you know that?
Mr.Murret. Well, she could have.
Mr.Jenner. She could have, and you wouldn't have known about it?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. But all of those gloves would have been gloves for boys who are right handers then, isn't that right, since all three of your boys are right handed?
Mr.Murret. Yes, that's right. They are all right handers.
Mr.Jenner. Then the gloves were for the left hand, is that correct?
Mr.Murret. Yes, that's correct, the left hand.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know Marguerite Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Oh, yes, I know her. I never could get along with her.
Mr.Jenner. You couldn't get along with her?
Mr.Murret. No; she was quite a bit younger than my wife.
Mr.Jenner. You're talking about Lillian Murret, your wife, and Marguerite's sister, now, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know a man by the name of John Pic, or Ed Pic?
Mr.Murret. Ed is all I knew him by.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see him once in a while?
Mr.Murret. Oh, I saw him just by chance.
Mr.Jenner. But you did see him once in a while over the years, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Oh, yes and I still do, as a matter of fact, but not very often. He has been with T. Smith, Stevedores, for many, many years.
Mr.Jenner. Does he have a responsible position with T. Smith?
Mr.Murret. Oh, I imagine, because he has been there for so many years.
Mr.Jenner. Was he ever a stevedore?
Mr.Murret. I think he has just been an office man, to my knowledge, but his firm is in that line of business.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember his marriage to Marguerite Claverie?
Mr.Murret. Well, I didn't attend the wedding.
Mr.Jenner. But you knew they were married?
Mr.Murret. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And do you know that some difficulty arose eventually in that marriage?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. They didn't get along?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And they separated?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Since your wife has given us most of that information, we will just skip some of that, but that marriage did end in divorce, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes, it did.
Mr.Jenner. They had one child, John Edward Pic, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them once in a while during this period?
Mr.Murret. Yes; they lived close in the neighborhood, so I would see them pretty often.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember her divorce from John Pic and subsequent marriage to a man by the name of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What business was he in?
Mr.Murret. The insurance business.
Mr.Jenner. Was he an insurance collector?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He was not an insurance salesman?
Mr.Murret. No, he was a collector. He collected premiums for his company.
Mr.Jenner. You do remember that Marguerite married Lee Oswald, and a couple of children were born of that marriage, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Robert Lee and Lee Harvey, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember the birth of Lee in 1939?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall when they lived on Alvar Street?
Mr.Murret. Alvar? Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You do remember that?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I think that's where they were living when he died.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; our records show that he died in August 1939, and Lee was born a couple of months after he died; do you remember that?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I don't know the exact month, but I remember it was right after he died.
Mr.Jenner. What did she do after her husband died, after she had the child? Did she go to work, or what?
Mr.Murret. I couldn't swear to that. I don't know if she inherited anythingfrom the insurance, from Lee dying, or not. It wasn't any of my business, so I didn't ask about that.
Mr.Jenner. You mind your own business?
Mr.Murret. That's right; that's what I did then, too.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall her living in and around New Orleans then, after Mr. Oswald died?
Mr.Murret. Well, yes; I imagine so, but then she moved to Texas, and I think she married this man over there sometime after that, by the name of Ekdahl, or something like that. It's a hard name to pronounce.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever meet Mr. Ekdahl?
Mr.Murret. No; never in my life.
Mr.Jenner. There has been some evidence in these depositions about a picnic that was held over at Covington, La., which was attended by Marguerite and her three children and Mr. Ekdahl; do you remember that?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. You don't know anything about that?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of a boy was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Well, I'll tell you: I didn't take that much interest in him. I couldn't tell you anything about that, because I didn't pay attention to all that. I do think he was a loud kid, you know what I mean; he was always raising his voice when he wanted something from his mother, I know that, but I think a lot of times he was just the opposite. He liked to read, and he stuck by himself pretty much in the apartment the way I understand it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and Marguerite get along all right?
Mr.Murret. Not too well.
Mr.Jenner. Not too well?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. What was the reason for that?
Mr.Murret. Well, it was due to her disposition, more or less. She always thought she was right, and she would get aggravated at anybody that disagreed with her, and things like that.
Mr.Jenner. But you avoided open controversy with her, is that correct?
Mr.Murret. Oh, yes; I didn't want to run head-on into anything like that. For that reason I always did pretend like everything was all right, but I never did think a house was big enough for two families, to that extent.
Mr.Jenner. Did there come a time then when they left New Orleans?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where did they go?
Mr.Murret. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. To Texas?
Mr.Murret. I imagine so, but I don't know where they went.
Mr.Jenner. But they did leave your house?
Mr.Murret. Yes; they sure did.
Mr.Jenner. And you didn't hear from them for a while, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Well, my wife might have heard from them, and she might even have told me, but I didn't take any interest in that after they left.
Mr.Jenner. You just didn't follow that?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did there come a time, along in 1954, in the winter of 1954, about January or something like that, that they returned to New Orleans? Do you remember that?
Mr.Murret. I don't remember what year it was, but they came back to New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. They did come back to New Orleans; you remember that?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Lee was a young man then—a teenager, is that correct, sir?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And 13, 14 years old?
Mr.Murret. About that, I guess.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember him being about that age when they returned to New Orleans?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And he started high school here, I believe, is that right, or do you know?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I think so. I mean, I can't fix the year and all those details, but they did come back here, and he went to high school.
Mr.Jenner. What do you remember about him as to his personality when he returned?
Mr.Murret. Well, couldn't remember the first one, to compare it to the second time. I mean, I couldn't say he actually changed in any certain way, because I couldn't remember how he was the first time.
Mr.Jenner. They lived with you for awhile when they returned to New Orleans, didn't they?
Mr.Murret. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. You don't remember that?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember, or were you conscious of the fact, that they were living in New York City before they returned to New Orleans on that occasion?
Mr.Murret. Well, I couldn't swear to that, but judging from what the wife said, I mean, that's probably what happened. She had told me that they were in New York; I remember that.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember when they returned here from New York that they lived over on St. Mary Street, or Exchange Alley?
Mr.Murret. I remember Exchange Alley. I remember 1 day in particular, and I think it was on carnival, or somewhere in the carnival season. I don't know the date any more. They went back to Texas from there.
Mr.Jenner. At any rate you remember that they left and went to Texas, right?
Mr.Murret. Let me put it this way. I think they did, but I lost contact with them.
Mr.Jenner. But they did leave New Orleans again, after living at Exchange Alley, didn't they?
Mr.Murret. Yes; they went back to Texas. Do you mean the second time?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. Do you remember that?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I recall my wife telling me that—that they had moved back to Texas, but I don't know the date or anything like that.
Mr.Jenner. When was the next time that you saw either of them?
Mr.Murret. Well, the next time was when he came to New Orleans, and stayed at our house. That was just a year ago in May, I think. I don't remember what month, but it was about that.
Mr.Jenner. About a year ago or in that neighborhood?
Mr.Murret. Yes. That's when Lee came to town, and wanted to look for an apartment, and said he was going to get a job, and that he would like to stay with us until he found something.
Mr.Jenner. All right; now, tell us about that.
Mr.Murret. Well, when I walked in the house, he was standing in the kitchen.
Mr.Jenner. That was after you came home from work?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. You were surprised to see him?
Mr.Murret. Yes; that's right. I was surprised all right.
Mr.Jenner. All right. What happened then?
Mr.Murret. My wife said, "Do you recognize who this is?" and I said, "Yes," and I said, "It looks like he has grown up or something." Of course, he looked older, but he hadn't changed too much in appearance, I don't think.
Mr.Jenner. Of course, this was Lee Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The same boy, but you say he had grown up a little more, is that right?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Physically, at least?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Had you heard anything about him in the meantime?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Not a thing?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. What did he tell you on that occasion?
Mr.Murret. What did he tell me?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; didn't you help him put some stuff in your garage? Didn't you go to the bus station and get his luggage and things and bring them to the house?
Mr.Murret. Did I help him?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Murret. I don't remember that. I don't remember helping him with any luggage, not that day.
Mr.Jenner. The next day?
Mr.Murret. No; I don't believe it was even that next day. It was a couple of days afterward.
Mr.Jenner. All right; it is your recollection that it was a couple of days later, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you take him with you to pick up his luggage at the bus station?
Mr.Murret. No; I don't remember that.
Mr.Jenner. You don't remember that?
Mr.Murret. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. Are you sure now?
Mr.Murret. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Would it be possible that you did that, but you just don't remember it?
Mr.Murret. You mean gone to the bus station with him?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; and picked up his luggage for him, and perhaps you don't recall it at this time?
Mr.Murret. I might have. I just don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. Now, tell me what you recall his luggage consisted of at that time?
Mr.Murret. Well, I'll tell you; it might have been a duffelbag, or something; I'm not sure of that. I don't remember what all it was.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have a Marine duffelbag, like soldiers use—that sort of thing?
Mr.Murret. Well, it was a bag; I guess it was a duffelbag.
Mr.Jenner. Did it have a name on it?
Mr.Murret. I didn't see any.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember going in your car to the bus station to get his luggage?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I remember doing that.
Mr.Jenner. And you drove?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I drove.
Mr.Jenner. Could Lee drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr.Murret. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever drive a car, to your knowledge?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him driving an automobile?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. How many duffelbags were there?
Mr.Murret. I think there were two of them.
Mr.Jenner. What else did he have?
Mr.Murret. That's all that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have any cardboard boxes?
Mr.Murret. Not that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have any suitcases?
Mr.Murret. Not that I saw; I don't think he had any suitcases.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you put this luggage in your car, didn't you?
Mr.Murret. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did he do that?
Mr.Murret. Yes; he put them in my car.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see him doing that?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I saw him.
Mr.Jenner. Did you stay close to the locker in which this luggage was contained?
Mr.Murret. No; I don't believe I did. I sat at the wheel of the car. I asked him if he wanted a lift, but he said no, but I know he had two duffelbags at least. I sat at the wheel of the car, to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. All right; you reached home, right?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was the car unpacked then?
Mr.Murret. Yes; by Lee.
Mr.Jenner. Lee did the unpacking?
Mr.Murret. Yes; he didn't want any help, so I didn't help him.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Lee then, after he had appeared at your house after all those years?
Mr.Murret. Well, I don't know, but I just couldn't warm up to him, but he said he wanted to find a job and get an apartment and then send for his wife in Texas, so I wasn't going to stand in his way.
Mr.Jenner. Did he get an apartment?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where was that?
Mr.Murret. Oh, that was out on Magazine Street, but as far as the number is concerned, I don't know it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember Lee's wife?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Marina?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When he got the job, did he call his wife on the phone and have her come over?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did she come over with a Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Murret. Yes; they drove on into New Orleans, and I met them, and I told the lady, I said, "I'm glad to have met you," but if she would walk in this door now, I wouldn't recognize her.
Mr.Jenner. By the lady, do you mean Mrs. Paine?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right; what happened after Marina and Mrs. Paine arrived?
Mr.Murret. Well, after we greeted them and everything, we decided to go up to the apartment on Magazine, and I had Lee ride with me, I think, and the others rode in the station wagon behind us.
Mr.Jenner. Lee rode with you?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was the station wagon pretty packed with the luggage and everything?
Mr.Murret. Yes; it was pretty loaded, because Mrs. Paine had her two children with her.
Mr.Jenner. While they were living on Magazine Street, did they come and visit you or your family at your home?
Mr.Murret. Well, if they did, it was while I wasn't there. They must have come in the daytime.
Mr.Jenner. Now, tell me about the trip over to Mobile; who went over?
Mr.Murret. My daughter Joyce, her two children, and Marina and the baby, and Lee.
Mr.Jenner. How did this come about?
Mr.Murret. Well, her brother being in the seminary, he heard that Lee was here and he wanted to see him. He wondered if we could bring Lee up there to visit him, because he said he would like to see him.
Mr.Jenner. Then it wasn't at Lee's request that this trip was made over to Mobile?
Mr.Murret. Oh, no.
Mr.Jenner. Did you drive them over?
Mr.Murret. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. How long were you there?
Mr.Murret. Oh, just from Saturday morning to Sunday evening.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee give some kind of an address to the students over there?
Mr.Murret. Yes; but it was just for the faculty and the school over there.
Mr.Jenner. Just for the boys and the faculty at the school?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you there?
Mr.Murret. I was there—not to listen to the speech now, but we were on the grounds.
Mr.Jenner. But you didn't listen to the talk Lee gave at all?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. How about Marina?
Mr.Murret. No; Marina and my wife—none of us went in.
Mr.Jenner. So you returned to New Orleans the next day, is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pay all the expenses of that trip?
Mr.Murret. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Was Lee Oswald making very much money at that time?
Mr.Murret. I don't remember that. I didn't ask him that, how much he was making.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression?
Mr.Murret. My impression was that he didn't have money to pay for the trip or the motel or anything.
Mr.Jenner. You paid it?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see any communistic literature or leaflets or pamphlets relating to communism, or anything like that that could be termed subversive in any sense of the word, in Lee Oswald's apartment?
Mr.Murret. Well, I saw a picture in his apartment, a picture of Castro, on the mantel there.
Mr.Jenner. On the mantel?
Mr.Murret. Yes; it was there after he was arrested.
Mr.Jenner. Last summer?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In August it was there?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see Lee in a television interview here?
Mr.Murret. Well, no; but I heard him over the radio.
Mr.Jenner. The radio?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me about that.
Mr.Murret. Well, he called up my wife and told her that he was going to be on television, so we turned on the television, but he was on the radio instead.
Mr.Jenner. You did hear him on the radio; did you listen to the program?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir; not all of it, but enough of it.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Murret, did you ever try to teach Lee how to drive an automobile?
Mr.Murret. No; I didn't try to teach him that, but I tried to teach him to talk American to his little child.
Mr.Jenner. What was your discussion with him on that?
Mr.Murret. There was no discussion. I just told him, I said, "Why don't you teach your child how to speak the English language?" But he didn't give me an answer to that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have a discussion with him as to why he left Russia?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to his political views in connection with Russia, as to what he thought of Russia?
Mr.Murret. No, I didn't. To tell you the truth, after he defected to Russia and went there to live and everything, I just let it go out the window. Ifigured, "What's the use?" and then after he came back here and got into this radio thing about Castro, and communism, and these leaflets and all, I didn't worry myself any more about him. My main concern was keeping peace in the family and seeing that he didn't disrupt anything around there.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, you sort of gave up on him?
Mr.Murret. I sure did, but now, Marina, I asked her how she liked America, and her face broke out in a big smile, like a fresh bloom, and she said, "I like America."
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mr. Murret, did anything occur that I haven't asked you about that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of all the circumstances and facts surrounding this matter?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe your testimony, and it will be forwarded to Washington. What do you prefer to do in that respect?
Mr.Murret. I will waive it.
Mr.Jenner. You wish to waive the reading and signing of your deposition?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. All right, thank you for coming in, Mr. Murret; that's all the questions I have.
Mr.Murret. He was a hard one to get to know. You just couldn't get to know him at all, and I don't think he had much consideration for anyone, especially for his mother.
Mr.Jenner. You arrived at that opinion over the period of time that you had contact with him?
Mr.Murret. Yes; and the thing that was so odd to me was that he seemed to always be trying to prove himself, that he was so independent. For example, he wouldn't let me help him with the luggage, and things like that. He wanted to do it all himself.
Mr.Jenner. So you let him do it by himself, right?
Mr.Murret. Absolutely. It didn't matter to me, if he wanted to go ahead and do it that way. I just, you know, lost all interest in him after all these things happened. You just couldn't figure him out.
The testimony of John M. Murret was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
John M. Murret, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I want to give you a copy of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, and also a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission governing the taking of testimony of witnesses. (Producing documents and handing to witness.) Those rules provide that technically a witness is entitled to 3 days' notice before he is required to testify before the Commission or to give testimony to a staff member. I know that you didn't get 3 days' notice. Witnesses are entitled to waive the notice requirement, and I hope and assume that you will be willing to do that since you are here, and we will go right ahead with the testimony. Are you willing to waive the 3 days' notice?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you. We want to inquire of you briefly this morning concerning your contact with Lee Oswald while he was here in New Orleans during the summer of 1963. Before we get into the details of that, however, will you state your full name for the record.
Mr.Murret. My full name is John Martial Murret.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mr.Murret. 6622 Louis XIV Street, New Orleans, La.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you employed?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. By whom?
Mr.Murret. E. R. Squibb and Sons.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you worked for them?
Mr.Murret. Approximately 4 years.
Mr.Liebeler. What do you do for them?
Mr.Murret. I am a pharmaceutical sales representative.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you are Lee Harvey Oswald's cousin?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You are a brother to Marilyn Murret and the son of Mr. and Mrs. Charles Ferdinand Murret?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Charles Murret is also known as Dutz Murret, is he not, D-u-t-z?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you born here in New Orleans?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you obtained your primary and secondary education here in the New Orleans school system?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you go to school?
Mr.Murret. Holy Rosary primary and St. Aloysius High School and St. Louis University and Loyola University.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you hold a degree from Loyola University?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. A Bachelor's Degree?
Mr.Murret. A Bachelor's Degree.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you major in?
Mr.Murret. Secondary education, minor in chemistry.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have occasion to see Lee Oswald during the summer of 1963?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us about that, starting with the first time you saw him. Tell us the circumstances under which you met him, the conversations that you had. Tell us about the various times that you did see him during the summer of 1963, what you did during that period of time, as far as Oswald is concerned.
Mr.Murret. Well, actually there was not too much contact that I did have with him. Since I did live in the house anddid——
Mr.Liebeler. At 757 French Street?
Mr.Murret. 757 French Street. The first contact I think I had with him, we ordinarily—sometimes when I am working in that particular neighborhood, I would come home for lunch, and he was there at this particular occasion with his little bag and so forth.
Mr.Liebeler. Now can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr.Murret. Tell you the truth, I can't recall, but as you mentioned, you know, during the summer. Evidently it was during the summer. I am not too sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it have been some time in May perhaps of 1963, or can'tyou——
Mr.Murret. I can't recall. I could have recalled then, but I am kind of confused now on it.
Mr.Liebeler. So you came home to lunch on this particular day and Oswald was there?
Mr.Murret. He was gone to the grocery. When he came back, that is when, you know, well, like my mother said, she said, "Guess who was here," and I think I guessed it, you know, and he went to the grocery to get a loaf of bread, I think it was, and he just came back. But there was no particular other contact that I could say I had with him other than—you know, he talking about maybe Russia or something, but mostly, you know, the food and drink and, you know, different environments that they have. That is the only thing I can say about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that he did talk about his time in Russia, and that basically it was in terms of the kind of living conditions that they had and the way the people live their lives in Russia?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you in any way that he had received better treatment while he was in Russia than other Russians, or did you gain an impression about that?
Mr.Murret. No, I couldn't you know, actually say that, but—in fact, I couldn't, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you at all why he went to Russia in the first place?
Mr.Murret. No. In fact, I didn't inquire or feel that it was any of my particular business why he did, but the only thing I can say, he just went. I just didn't want to pry into his business, you know, or anything like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you anything about his experiences in Russia, other than in general terms as far as living conditions and that sort of thing is concerned?
Mr.Murret. Well, his experience working in the factories where he had gotten work. Other than that—that is the only particular.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of a factory he worked in?
Mr.Murret. I really don't recall if it was a photographic factory or something, you know, similar.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he was working in the field of photography?
Mr.Murret. Well, I know he was trying to acquire positions here in the city of New Orleans either as a photographer or working in a photographic shop or as a draftsman. I had known that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he mention anything about any hunting activities that he might have engaged in while he was in the Soviet Union?
Mr.Murret. In the Soviet Union?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he decided to come back to the United States?
Mr.Murret. No, not directly. Maybe my mother tried to get it out of him, but he just said he was back, and he got married and so forth and wanted to come back to the States.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't go into very much detail as far as his experience in Russia? Is that correct?
Mr.Murret. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. As I understand it, he stayed at the house at 757 French Street for about a week? Is that right?
Mr.Murret. Actually stayed there? I couldn't recall offhand, you know, how long he stayed there, even though, you know, I lived there, but I can't recall whether it was a week, 2 weeks, 3 weeks, or what it might be.
Mr.Liebeler. During this time, he was looking for a job?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether he found one?
Mr.Murret. Well, it was kind of hard for him, you know, finding a job. I do know that he did find a job. He was working. It was indicated that he did work for a coffee factory on Tchoupitoulas or Magazine Street or some place around there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he was having trouble finding a job?
Mr.Murret. Well, no. In fact, I was interested in actually him finding ajob, to be truthful, and I would have thought, personally, you know, even the way he was dressed, it was kind of difficult for him finding a job the way his appearance looked, you know, when he first came back, with no clothes and so forth looking for a job. It was sort of impossible for him to get a job. There is no doubt about it.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't make too good an appearance?
Mr.Murret. No, sir; he could have, but he just didn't have the clothes, evidently the money, for him to make the appearance. That is all.
Mr.Liebeler. Now did you ever go over to the apartment that Oswald apparently rented on Magazine Street?
Mr.Murret. I knew where he lived. In fact, possibly I had drove Marina and Lee to the apartment, but I have never stepped out of the car or actually been in front of the particular home or inside the home.
Mr.Liebeler. The Commission has some information to the effect that you tried to teach Oswald how to drive a car. Is that correct?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us about that.
Mr.Murret. Well, like I say, he was always home, you know, on 757 French Street looking at TV or whatever it may be. It just so happened sometimes I work late, come home maybe 5:30 or 6 o'clock, and I didn't have any time during the day to teach him, and this one particular night—I had told him, you know, I was going to take him out, that he should learn how to drive and so forth, that it may be helpful to him on getting a job.
Mr.Liebeler. He told you that he didn't know how to drive a car?
Mr.Murret. I can't directly say, you know, that he did, but the impression was—I could actually say that he did not know how to drive a car before he got behind the wheel. I actually had to tell him how to start the car and so forth, what to do on it.
Mr.Liebeler. Now on this particular night that you took him out in the car, would you tell us how he handled the car and just what you and he did, where you drove the car, how you practiced with it.
Mr.Murret. Well, this was at nighttime, as I was saying. I forget—I guess it was after supper. And I drove him to City Park, which is the city park here in New Orleans. It was by the golf driving range where they have these little parking partitions, yellow lines for parking places for the golfers, and I had brought him here.
Mr.Liebeler. You had driven the car from your house on French Street over to the parking lot in the park?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir; and I was actually trying to teach him how to back up. It was a pushbutton car, a Dodge, a 1960 Dodge, a rather big car, no power steering or anything, and I was just trying to tell him, you know, how to go into the parking lanes and also backing into the parking lanes, and he was awkward, I mean as far as learning is concerned. You could see that he had never driven a car before. That is my impression of this. So after—we stayed there awhile and then I let him drive the car, you know, through the park and back home again.
Mr.Liebeler. You let him drive the car back to the house on French Street?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir; it was through the park. There was no traffic or anything. Nobody was in the park.
Mr.Liebeler. It was just a drive through the park?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How did he seem to handle the car at that time?
Mr.Murret. Well, I had to stay next to him, tell you the truth. Evidently he could handle the car—I mean just steering—because it was just regular gas and brake. That is all it is, you know. There is nothing to that. But in traffic, I really couldn't say how he could have handled it, you know, the car.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go out with him again after that with the car?
Mr.Murret. No; that was the only time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever let him take the car by himself?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether he ever took your car by himself without your permission?
Mr.Murret. No, sir; I always had the car working.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have access to any other automobiles while he was here in New Orleans, as far as you know?
Mr.Murret. To my knowledge, no; not of my family's possessions.
Mr.Liebeler. You have a brother who is studying to be a Jesuitpriest——
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. In Mobile, Ala., do you not?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time in the summer of 1963 when Lee Oswald went to Mobile, Ala.?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go along?
Mr.Murret. I was supposed to. I was in Houston at the time, we had a sales meeting in Houston, and I didn't make the trip.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not go?
Mr.Murret. No, sir; I did not go.
Mr.Liebeler. Who all went on that trip? Do you know?
Mr.Murret. As I recall, it must have been my mother and father and Marilyn, and that is it, and Lee and Marina and the baby.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked with your brother, the Jesuit student, since that time?
Mr.Murret. I have; yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about Oswald's appearance at the seminary?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You never discussed that particular event?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk about Oswald at all?
Mr.Murret. I did. In fact, the next time I had seen my brother was at my wedding. You see, he doesn't come in New Orleans at all. And I had asked him what kind of talk he gave, because I was interested in what kind of talk he did give and what impression he made on the Jesuits, and, like he said, you know, he didn't speak other than what the conditions were, you know, in Russia, and how he lived and the food and drink and so forth, and I think the other boys were asking him questions or trying to ask him questions. He may be evading the questions, but other than that, that is the only connection I had with my brother, you know, just asking him about it.
Mr.Liebeler. This was at your wedding? Is that right?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the date of that?
Mr.Murret. That was October 5, 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. 1963?
Mr.Murret. Sixty-three, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your brother indicate—did your brother, Eugene, indicate his opinion of Lee Oswald to you?
Mr.Murret. Well, his mind was—as far as his thinking was concerned, there is no doubt but that he thought in the wrong direction.
Mr.Liebeler. That is what your brother thought?
Mr.Murret. That is what my brother thought; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Your brother, of course, is studying to be a Jesuit priest?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever talk to Oswald about religion?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now other than the first time that you saw Oswald when he was there at 757 French Street on that day when you came home forlunch——
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And the contact that you had with him at 757 French Street until he moved out, did you have any other contact with Oswald during the summer of 1963?
Mr.Murret. No, sir; just only when, you know, he came to the house some Sundays maybe to eat or something on that order.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you meet Marina Oswald?
Mr.Murret. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to her?
Mr.Murret. Not in clear English, but made signs and so forth, and I actually didn't want to, you know, get involved, but I actually couldn't speak to her, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina could speak English?
Mr.Murret. No; I don't think she could, and I was amazed how fast that she did pick it up, you know, when she was on television and so forth.
Mr.Liebeler. After theassassination——
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You observed a distinct and surprising improvement in her use of the English language, did you not?
Mr.Murret. Definitely.
Mr.Liebeler. From the time that you saw her in New Orleans here in the summer of 1963 until the time that she appeared on television after the assassination?
Mr.Murret. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have occasion to observe Lee Oswald and Marina together?
Mr.Murret. Around the television; yes. I think that is about the only time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion as to how they got along with each other?
Mr.Murret. To me they got along pretty well, they got along pretty well. In fact, they had a television program on one day—I forget what it was, on a Friday night—pertaining to a circus, and it was in Russia, and they were pretty well enthused about it being it was Russian, and it was the first time they had ever seen something like that. In fact, I think they had either the Olympics or some sort of sporting event in Russia at the time, and they were quite impressed, because it was the first time they had ever seen something like this, but other than that, it seemed like they got along pretty well. I didn't see anything out of the ordinary, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. There was never any indication of strain or hostility in their relationship, as far as you could tell?
Mr.Murret. No, sir; not that I could see.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discusspolitics——
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. With Oswald at all?
Mr.Murret. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Or Governor Connally?
Mr.Murret. No, sir.