Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mrs.Hall. I really don't know. It is such a hard question. Only one thing I could tell, that he was such a quiet and such a—I don't know how to express myself—person, that I never thought he could do something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Like shoot the President, you mean?
Mrs.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you prior to the time of the assassination that he was dangerous or mentally unstable in any way, did it?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that he had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs.Hall. Very much so.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with your friends about it then?
Mrs.Hall. In fact, when I was watching TV and I saw all the shooting, after a few minutes Mrs. Clark called me and said, "Elena, did you hear? Lee Oswald—Did you hear Lee Oswald's name?"
I said "No." She said, "I heard it on the radio, and I think it was Lee Oswald's name."
And I couldn't believe it. After an hour or so, they told that it was Lee Oswald, and everybody was very surprised.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that most all of your friends in the Russian group were very surprised that Oswald was involved in this?
Mrs.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever express within your hearing, or did you ever hear him having expressed resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever express resentment that it had taken a long time for him to come back to the United States after he decided to return from Russia?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear him mention President Kennedy or talk about President Kennedy in any way?
Mrs.Hill. No.
Mr.Liebeler. How about Governor Connally?
Mrs.Hall. No; never.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever mention Richard Nixon?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You never heard of any displeasure that Oswald might have had with Mr. Nixon?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. What about General Walker, did you ever hear any discussion about him?
Mrs.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Think about it now. Do you think of anything now, Mrs. Hall, that you can remember about the Oswalds about your relationship with them, that you think the Commission should know about that I haven't already asked you about? Can you think of anything that you should add at this point?
Mrs.Hall. I wish I knew more.
Mr.Liebeler. You think we pretty well covered everything?
Mrs.Hall. Yes; that is all, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. I have no more questions at this point. Thank you very much, Mrs. Hall.
The testimony of John Raymond Hall was taken at 4 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise, please, and I will swear you in. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth in the testimony that you are about to give?
Mr.Hall. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Hall, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress 137.
Copies of those two documents and also of the Commission's Rules of procedure governing the taking of testimony have been sent to you, I believe, in a letter from Mr. Rankin in which he indicated that I would contact you this week to take your testimony.
Have you received copies of those documents?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. We want to examine you briefly concerning whatever knowledge you might have of Lee Harvey Oswald as a result of contacts that you had with him after his return from the Soviet Union.
Mr.Hall. So that this doesn't overlap what my wife would say, would you like for me to just completely eliminate anything except when just he and I were together, or would you, if it overlaps, does it make any difference?
Mr.Liebeler. I think I want you to tell generally the contacts that you had with Oswald, but I will bring that out. What is your full name?
Mr.Hall. John Raymond Hall.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Hall. 4760 Trail Lake Drive, Fort Worth.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your employment?
Mr.Hall. Self-employed. Dental laboratory.
Mr.Liebeler. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the name of your company?
Mr.Hall. Crown & Bridge Prosthesis.
Mr.Liebeler. You are a native born American?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born?
Mr.Hall. Birmingham, Ala.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr.Hall. I was born in 1928 and moved in approximately 1931.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you move to Dallas?
Mr.Hall. I beg your pardon, I moved to Garland. From Birmingham to Garland in 1931. And in 1946, we moved to Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Then did you move to Fort Worth?
Mr.Hall. Then I went into the service after going to college in 1948. And then in 1956—in 1955, the latter part of 1955, I moved to Fort Worth.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr.Hall. 1928.
Mr.Liebeler. 1928?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you married?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your wife's name?
Mr.Hall. Elena Hall.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you married to Mrs. Hall?
Mr.Hall. In 1959. September the 11th, 1959.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you were subsequently divorced?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Then you were subsequently remarried?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you remarried?
Mr.Hall. In November of 1962.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you made the acquaintance of Lee Oswald?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances surrounding that?
Mr.Hall. The first time was during the latter part of these marital difficulties with my wife whom I was divorced with at the time.
I had started my business in Odessa, Tex., and I believe this was in about August of 1962, when I was making many trips from Odessa to Fort Worth, for the purpose of seeing my wife. And the first time, I believe it was in August of 1962, that I met Oswald, was about—when I made one of these weekend trips. I came in on Friday night or Saturday, and she, through her friends, mostly foreign born, George Bouhe and Gali Clark, although Gali wasn't involved inthis——
Mr.Liebeler. Your wife was born in Russia?
Mr.Hall. She was born in Tehran, Iran. Her mother and father were born in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Does your wife speak Russian?
Mr.Hall. Yes; her mother and father moved to Iran when they were in their middle 20's, so actually my wife is Iranian.
All right, then when I met Oswald is on one of these weekend trips. As I understood my wife when I came in that weekend, this ex-GI and ex-marine and his Russian-born wife have some difficulties along the line of finding jobs and so forth, and getting along. We went over to their apartment near Montgomery Ward in Fort Worth with George Bouhe, and I forget the people's names, they were over there from Dallas—De Mohrenschildt's daughter and her husband, I believe that is.
Mr.Liebeler. Would that be Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr.Hall. Yes; we discussed what was going to happen, and in this Oswald was going to move to Dallas and try to locate a job. In the meantime, since my business was in Odessa, financial difficulties they already were having, Marina would move in with my wife and live there while Oswald came to Dallas and got a job and got himself settled.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether Oswald had any job at that time?
Mr.Hall. At that time he did not have a job, and George Bouhe and I discussed this.
That afternoon I called my father, who is with the Murray Gin Co. here in Dallas, because they have a machine shop and such. Oswald told me that he worked in sheet-metal work in Russia, and so I called dad, and dad said that he didn't think they had anything. And I told George Bouhe that if he would check with personnel in the morning—that was on Saturday—if he would check with them on Monday morning and see, we would like to give this guy a job.
It turned out that George called my father and dad talked to the personnel manager and there wasn't anything available at the Murray Co. Then through hearsay, actually Oswald came to Dallas and got a job through the Texas Employment Commission, and that was that for the time being.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember who told you that Oswald got a job through the Texas Employment Commission?
Mr.Hall. George Bouhe, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. When you went to Oswald's apartment in Fort Worth this first time with Bouhe and the other people that you mentioned, did you then meet Oswald?
Mr.Hall. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you speak to him, and did he speak to you?
Mr.Hall. Yes; we talked at length.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me generally what he said and what you talked about?
Mr.Hall. Maybe it is the whole pattern, but he had just gotten back from downtown Fort Worth, walking. On the way over there my wife was telling me how destitute they were. This was my first impression.
So when I walked in, he had just been to town to buy this 50-cent magazine on Russia, which of course I thought, to myself, here they are destitute and he is spending 50 cents on a magazine, especially about Russia.
We visited that afternoon. We were there for an hour or so, and nothing really important was said, that I can think of.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about his trip to Russia?
Mr.Hall. Not a whole lot at this time. We were sort of impressed by his trip to Russia. The emphasis was on getting him moved to Dallas and getting him a job, so actually that was the main concern and talk at that time, and most of it really went on by George Bouhe and myself and this Taylor fellow.
Do you mind if I smoke?
Mr.Liebeler. Certainly not.
Go right ahead.
Did you and Oswald at any time ever discuss his trip to Russia in any detail?
Mr.Hall. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me approximately when that was?
Mr.Hall. Yes; the first time which wasn't really much in detail, several weeks later my wife had an automobile accident and I flew in from Odessa on Wednesday or Thursday morning.
I believe she had the accident on Wednesday, and I flew in on Thursday morning. I went straight to the hospital and saw she was all right, and spent most of the day there.
And because Marina was staying at our home at that time, and this was the period during the divorce, I stayed in a motel, the Landmark Lounge.
The next couple of days Gali Clark, Mrs. Max Clark, took me by the house to get some clothes or something, where I was there just a few minutes and only Marina was there. That was the only contact I had with Marina, Thursday or Friday.
Then Oswald was in Dallas during this period of time on Saturday, and I was going back and forth from the motel to the hospital.
Then on Saturday Oswald came over, and his wife, who was staying at our house, as I mentioned, Marina fixed borsch, Russian soup, for Mr. and Mrs. Clark, Lee Oswald, and myself, and I ran out from the hospital and ate with them.
And during this period of time we had gotten on this thing about Russia a little bit, Max and Oswald and myself, and the conversation was really led by Max.
He was questioning Oswald as to the whole pattern, the whole system of government, the way it was really operated, as to the communistic principles and how jobs were secured and how people lived, and so forth.
This was about all that was said there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the question come up as to why Oswald went to Russia in the first place?
Mr.Hall. Not then. At this time I just ran out and ate soup, and they were still in conversation when I left to go back to the hospital, so I only stayed possibly an hour. Maybe 45 minutes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald, or ever participate in a discussion in which the question as to why he went to Russia came up?
Mr.Hall. Just generally. The next time I saw Oswald after—this was the car wreck; then my wife and I went to New York, and then we came back and we remarried November 17, I believe—we didn't see Oswald again until Christmas when my wife fixed a little present, I think, for the baby and we came to Dallas, and we had been to church, it seems like. I think we spent the night at the Cabana Motel and went to church at the Greek Orthodox Church, St. Stephens, and then visited them on Sunday afternoon.
Wait a minute, no, I am talking about Christmas. That would have beenduring the week—anyway, we came over and visited them at Christmas time and brought the little baby girl, June, a Christmas present.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember where Oswald lived then?
Mr.Hall. Yes; over in Oak Cliff at the first location in Oak Cliff, Elsbeth Street. I believe it was on the corner in the red apartments.
Mr.Liebeler. At that time did you discuss with them the reasons as to why he went to Russia?
Mr.Hall. At this time, being Christmas and so, and I am not real strongly religious—I mean not to any extreme, but I have my firm beliefs, and I believe in God and the fundamentals of our Christianity—I am a Baptist—I mentioned to Oswald—this is what touched the whole thing off—they didn't have a Christmas tree. We wondered why, because you can buy a Christmas tree for 39 cents, probably a little one, and my wife, I think, asked why they didn't have a Christmas tree, and Oswald said he didn't want a Christmas tree, that he didn't believe in this sort of thing, that it was commercialized, and so forth.
When he mentioned this, it got me interested in his thinking. This was actually the first time I think that—this is the third time that I saw him—I think this was the first time I felt he was odd, because when he crossed me on religion, I mean just general religion, not anything specific—when he crossed me on religion, then I was offended mentally.
I might not have seemed that way—I didn't get mad or anything, but I didn't like it, and I asked him about, since he didn't have a car, I asked him if Elena, when we went to the Greek Orthodox Church here in Dallas, if we might stop by and pick him up and take him with us.
And he said, "Oh, no, he didn't believe in Christianity, that this Marxism, Leninism, this book, whatever the name itwas——
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have a book there?
Mr.Hall. I didn't see it if he did. He had a lot of Russian literature, I saw, but I never really thumbed through it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any specific books or periodicals that he had?
Mr.Hall. No; I really don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Go ahead.
Mr.Hall. Well, we differed on religion. So then he told Elena that he didn't believe in Christianity and so forth, he said, "If you want to come by and pick up Marina and take her to church, that is all right, but I am not going to go."
About that time we left. The conversation wasn't interesting, and we had gone over to take this little present to the baby, and we had accomplished the purpose, so we left.
Mr.Liebeler. When was it that you discussed with Oswald the reasons why he went to Russia?
Mr.Hall. The next time was Easter, if I am getting all this straight. I hadn't been in business long for myself. I was real strong for the system of free enterprise, and I asked Oswald how he was getting along down at the printing place, and he said, "Well, he was doing as well as could be expected, except the fact was that he didn't have security in his job and didn't like the whole setup."
And I wondered why. And he said, "He didn't have security."
And I told him, "Well, nobody has security actually. We have to work and keep up with what is going on and keep getting ahead, and that it seemed to me like he could stay down there for 2 or 3 or 4 years and learn what had to be learned and open his own shop, and that he would be bettering himself and making more money and having more niceties of life.
And so the point is, with this system of free enterprise which I was real strong for, because I was trying to get ahead, and so Oswald, he told me that he was, he had already been discontent with the United States, that he didn't have security, and he really didn't know where his next job was coming from, and he heard through these theories that everything was controlled by the State in Russia, and that that was the reason he wanted to go, so to speak, and that is about it, inasfar as he was just unhappy with all of our systems.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you that he had any desire to return to Russia?
Mr.Hall. Yes; and even at this time—in fact, I don't remember, I don't know, it was probably at Easter, he said that he wanted to go back.
And I know this to be real definite that—I don't know how you want that—because when we first heard, when my wife and I first heard from the Clarks that Oswald was in New Orleans, when he was down there word got back, I don't know how it got back, but the Clarks told us he was in New Orleans, and when we found this out, I told my wife that I knew that he was down there to catch a ship and go to Russia.
So I don't know how he said this, but he left the impression with me, or told me directly—I think it was more directly, because I know at that time he wanted to go back to Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. You have a recollection that he said that to you in so many words?
Mr.Hall. Yes; I am sure of this, because my wife, when Gali Clark told her, and we found out he was in New Orleans, I was sure he was on his way to Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think he told you that at the time you met him at Easter of 1963?
Mr.Hall. Yes; because this is really what impressed me on religion, but things got stormy in this Easter meeting. I pushed him a little bit harder at that time than I had before.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he talk to you about his experiences in Russia during the time that he had previously been there?
Mr.Hall. Yes; he explained to us about living in Minsk, about working in the sheet metal factory, about how food was rather short, and about the terrible expense of shoes and clothes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how much money he was paid at the factory?
Mr.Hall. Max Clark asked him this at this soup luncheon, and I really don't remember. I have read this in the newspapers, but I don't remember what it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you in any way that he was receiving income while he was in Russia from any source other than his job?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you about any hunting trips that he might have gone on in Russia?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know that Oswald owned a rifle?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with him any aspect of hunting or the use of firearms?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't speak Russian, do you, Mr. Hall?
Mr.Hall. No, sir; this was a big disagreement at the first time we met. I know I just didn't enter into the discussion, so it was just about not wanting to teach his wife English. I was really upset about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he didn't want his wife to learn English?
Mr.Hall. He wanted to perfect his Russian. He thought it more important for him to further himself in the Russian language than for her to learn English.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form an opinion as to whether or not Marina Oswald did understand any English, or to what extent she understood English?
Mr.Hall. All the time, every meeting we had, I didn't feel like she could understand anything further than hello.
Mr.Liebeler. You first met them, as you said, in Fort Worth in the fall of 1962, and the last time you saw them was at Easter of 1963?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you maintain that opinion about Marina's ability to use English throughout that entire time, is that correct?
Mr.Hall. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever express any resentment against the U.S. Government for any reason that you can remember?
Mr.Hall. Not specifically. Just feeling. Like on capitalism, and I don't know if this is related to the time Max Clark and I were together with Oswald,and I don't know, Oswald didn't say this, somebody told me like George Bouhe, that Oswald felt—and we are just middle-income people—but he felt he didn't like us, because he felt like we were true capitalists, and that was just because we had a television set in the bedroom and one in the living room.
This was bitter to him. He didn't like that fact and didn't like electric can openers and things like that.
Mr.Liebeler. He expressed that, a general resentment of the social system?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear him say anything about President Kennedy?
Mr.Hall. Never.
Mr.Liebeler. What about Governor Connally?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever tell you why he decided to come back to the United States and leave Russia?
Mr.Hall. I really don't think so. The only reason I hesitate there is because, of course I read this in the paper, but he was talking about wanting to go back to Russia, and again I say I am not sure that he told me directly that he wanted to go back to Russia, either Christmas or Easter, or both because it was so firm in my mind that he wanted to go back to Russia.
And after I read in the papers that after he had only been to Russia about a year, he was trying to come back to the United States, I wondered why.
Mr.Liebeler. But he never did tell you, and you never asked him about it?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever form an opinion about Oswald during the time that you knew him, based on your acquaintance with him and the times that you saw him?
Mr.Hall. Well, the first time we met him of course we all thought he was so-called egghead, or whatever words you want to use.
And I am sure that if it hadn't been for the fact that we had feelings for his wife, we felt sorry for them because some friends of ours gave my wife some clothes to give to Marina, and, of course, wanted to help her.
Mr.Liebeler. Who were they?
Mr.Hall. Mrs. I. J. Flere. She gave some clothes, and I don't know, I think there were several people. My wife would know.
Mr.Liebeler. Gave clothes to Marina?
Mr.Hall. Yes; as well as George Bouhe. I think he gave $10 or $15 to my wife to buy some groceries for her and these things happen where people contributed to help. But I think I formed an opinion of him the first 5 minutes I met him when he came back from town with this magazine, because I couldn't figure wasting the money on literature. I had a definite opinion, and it got worse and worse, and the only reason we went back Christmas and Easter was because the baby, Elena wanted to take her an Easter bunny.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't as of then like Oswald particularly?
Mr.Hall. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr.Hall. I never really thought of this at the time. Looking back on it now, he was certainly abnormal, in the way we are raised.
Mr.Liebeler. But you had no thoughts at the time before the assassination that he was mentally unstable in any way?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You never regarded him as being a dangerous individual in any respect, did you?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you really consider or question, or you just never thought of it?
Mr.Hall. Just never thought of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of any other thing that you might know about Oswald as a result of your acquaintance with him that your wife wouldn't know, that you think you should tell us about at this point? I am correct in understanding, am I not, that your wife is really more familiar with the Oswalds than you are, is that correct?
Mr.Hall. She is more familiar with Marina. As far as our meeting likeChristmas and Easter, I did the talking in a conversation with Oswald, and Elena and Marina were back in the bedroom talking as women do.
Mr.Liebeler. During that period of time that you knew Oswald, did you become aware of the fact that he and Marina were having difficulties with their marriage?
Mr.Hall. We heard that she was living with someone else at one time, I don't know who. My wife can probably tell you. And we also heard that he beat her up one time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see any indication that he had beaten her up?
Mr.Hall. I didn't; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it your impression that the Oswalds were having marital difficulties at the time Marina lived in your house or in Mrs. Hall's house in Fort Worth?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The only reason that Marina lived there at that time was because Oswald didn't have an apartment in Dallas, is that correct?
Mr.Hall. To give him a chance to get settled; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you help the Oswalds move?
Mr.Hall. No. My wife moved Marina from their apartment there at Montgomery Ward to our home in a pickup truck that she borrowed from her employer at that time. But she didn't move, or neither of us helped him move to Dallas. We were in New York when they moved to Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall when you went to New York?
Mr.Hall. Well, we got back—we were married on the 17th.
Mr.Liebeler. Of November?
Mr.Hall. Yes; I believe. We left about 2 weeks earlier than that, which would be about, say, November the 1st, 2d, or 3d, and I came back and—a week later, and went directly to Odessa, finished my business, and moved back to Fort Worth, met my wife at the plane on the 16th, and we were married on the 17th.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember how long Marina had been living with your wife before you went to New York? In other words, when did Marina first move into the house with your wife?
Mr.Hall. Well, she would have moved in in the late, the latter part of October, because since she left during the week that my wife actually came back from New York—you see I came back a week earlier than she did, and she moved out during the last week that my wife was in New York, and that was the middle of November. It would mean that since she stayed in our home about 3 weeks, she moved there the latter part of October, and moved out the middle of November. We don't really know what day, I don't think.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you weren't there when she moved out?
Mr.Hall. No; we were in New York.
Mr.Liebeler. She was gone when you got back?
Mr.Hall. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea where Oswald was living in Dallas during the time his wife was living in your house?
Mr.Hall. We understood—this is hearsay from George Bouhe, I guess—that he was living at the YMCA.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as you knew, he moved directly from the YMCA to the apartments on Elsbeth Street, is that correct?
Mr.Hall. The next time we heard of him, he was living on Elsbeth.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know of any other place he might have lived in Dallas before taking that apartment?
Mr.Hall. Then he moved around the corner, around the corner from Elsbeth to an upstairs apartment in a white house, whatever the address on Neely Street.
Mr.Liebeler. N-e-e-l-y?
Mr.Hall. I don't really remember the name, but it was upstairs, and it was Easter, so they had moved between Christmas and Easter.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever lend any money to Oswald?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether your wife ever lent any money to them or gave any money to Marina?
Mr.Hall. I don't know about money. She bought groceries for them, for Marina, but as far as money, I don't think she ever loaned them any.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife buy groceries for Marina only during the time that Marina lived in your house, is that right? Or did she buy groceries for the Oswalds at other times?
Mr.Hall. No. I believe they did receive, the women contributed, and George Bouhe bought some groceries over to their place by Montgomery Ward.
Mr.Liebeler. Prior to the time that Oswald moved to Dallas?
Mr.Hall. Yes; I believe so. I am not sure of it.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any idea how much groceries were given to the Oswalds during that period of time, do you?
Mr.Hall. No; my wife would probably have a good idea of this in dollars.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his military service?
Mr.Hall. I can't remember a thing being said, about his military service.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you might know about Oswald that your wife wouldn't be able to testify about, that you think the Commission should know?
Mr.Hall. No, sir; I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever indicate a desire to go to Cuba or to Mexico?
Mr.Hall. Not to me; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of his indicating such a desire to anybody else?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you heard that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Hall. Not at all.
Mr.Liebeler. You weren't surprised?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Why not?
Mr.Hall. Well, exactly our feelings, Mrs. Clark called my wife and said that they had arrested Oswald, and we had the television set in our laboratory—at that time we were watching television and were on the wrong channel and didn't get this until 5 or 10 or 15 minutes later. We did get it, and when they mentioned it was Oswald, they were sure it was Oswald, then all of us—I am talking about my wife and Mrs. Clark and Max and ourself, subsequently talking, we said, "I am not surprised at all. That is the kind of guy that would do something like that." And this was generally the feeling among all the people we knew that knew him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any opinion, or was any opinion expressed during these conversations as to why Oswald would have done this, and if he did it, what his motive was?
Mr.Hall. Well, we felt like he was not mentally disarranged. I actually thought Oswald was pretty sharp with his words. I mean the way he talked, he didn't talk like he was stupid. He was pretty sharp. If he had the right training in the right direction, he could have done something with his life. But I always thought he was just completely out in left field in politics, that he didn't come close to us, so this is actually my feeling, because he was so intent on his ideas of this book that related to the Marxism theories, he was so intent and so set—in other words, when you talked to him about this, you just didn't have any idea at all that you were going to change him. Even though I was trying to convince him that our system was a tremendous enterprise, was the best, when I started talking to him, I didn't feel like I had a chance to change his thinking.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that these political attitudes of his were somehow related to his involvement in the assassination?
Mr.Hall. Say that again?
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think that these political attitudes or economic attitudes that Oswald had provided him a motive to want to assassinate the President? Or were related to it?
Mr.Hall. My—this is just my personal feeling, but I definitely feel that hethought that he was going to destroy the middle of our economic way of life by doing that.
Mr.Liebeler. You thought it was sort of a technique for him to express his resentment against the structure of our society that he disproved of? Is that a fair statement of your thinking?
Mr.Hall. Exactly.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have the feeling that Oswald desired recognition for his abilities and for his ideas? Recognition from people generally?
Mr.Hall. No; I didn't think of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have a feeling, or did you think about this before the assassination?
Mr.Hall. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't think he was different from anybody else in that respect? You just never thought of it, or it never came to your mind prior to the assassination, is that correct?
Mr.Hall. I felt just the opposite on the recognition part.
Mr.Liebeler. He really didn't care what people thought about him?
Mr.Hall. No; maybe he was saying this wrong to me, what he really believed. But from my thoughts, I thought that he would be happy if he had this so-called job like he was talking about in Russia and had complete security. And I thought this is just what he was looking for in life, was complete serenity and happiness, no problems, no money problems, no rent problems—you see what I mean, just a middle-of-the-roader.
Mr.Liebeler. So you didn't think he had any desire to stand out or be excellent at things?
Mr.Hall. When I said middle-of-the-road, he had these firm ideas which couldn't be changed, as far as I am concerned, and he would go off in the other direction. So that doesn't lead him to be a middle-of-the-roader. He is, from my thinking, a rebellious-type person. He is going to do it the way he thinks right, and nobody is going to change him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear, or did you ever take part in any discussion with anyone on the question of whether or not Oswald was possibly an agent of the Soviet Union.
Mr.Hall. This came up after the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. There was no discussion about that prior to the assassination, that you can remember?
Mr.Hall. As an agent for Russia before, no, no.
Mr.Liebeler. And it never occurred to you at any time prior to the assassination that Oswald might be a Russian agent?
Mr.Hall. We didn't figure he had sense enough in that respect.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you consider the question after the assassination and you did discuss it?
Mr.Hall. Just enough to think, "Do you think it was possible." In that—and my firm thoughts about it is that, of course, that is just my thinking, but I don't see how there could be any connection. He is not responsible enough to have authority above him. In other words, he couldn't have anybody above him really telling him what to do. He couldn't take the orders.
Mr.Liebeler. You have a feeling that Oswald was resentful of authority, generally speaking?
Mr.Hall. I say that, but if he lived in Russia, with their system, he must have had a lot of authority above him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you in any way that he was resentful of authority?
Mr.Hall. I don't know about our system of government in authority. He was just resentful of, in my thinking, I don't know, well, he was just resentful of our way of government. I don't know of anything to judge him on, how resentful he was of his superior officers in the service or anything like that, but he was resentful of our way of life. Not just our government. He was resentful of our whole way of life.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever tell you specifically, as far as you can remember, why he was resentful of it?
Mr.Hall. Insecurity, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. As far as jobs were concerned?
Mr.Hall. Basically, that's right; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. If you don't have anything else that you want to add at this point, we shall terminate your deposition. Thank you, Mr. Hall.
The testimony of Mrs. Frank H. Ray (Valentina) was taken at 4:10 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Ray, before we start, I will swear you as a witness. If you will rise and raise your right hand,please——
Mrs.Ray. Surely. (Complying.)
Mr.Liebeler. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Ray. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Please be seated. Before we start I would like to advise you that my name is Wesley J. Liebeler and I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff counsel have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137. I understand Mr. Rankin wrote you a letter last week?
Mrs.Ray. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. With which he included copies of the Executiveorder——
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And congressional resolution and also a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission concerning the taking of testimony.
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You received the letter and copies of the documents?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Our questioning of you today will be concerned basically with the knowledge of the Oswalds which you might have gained as a result of your association with them in 1962. Before I get into that, I would like to have you state your full name for the record, if you would.
Mrs.Ray. Mrs. Frank H. Ray.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mrs.Ray. I live 4524 Alta Vista, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born, Mrs. Ray?
Mrs.Ray. In Stalino, Ukraine.
Mr.Liebeler. That is in the Ukraine; it is the Soviet Union?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mrs.Ray. June 9, 1927.
Mr.Liebeler. How did it come about that you came to the United States?
Mrs.Ray. When I was 14 years old Germans occupy my part of Ukraine and they take me to Germany as slave labor. I work for Germans from 1942 until 1945, then Americans occupy part of Germany where I live.
Mr.Liebeler. What part of Germany?
Mrs.Ray. Dusseldorf on Rhine; in March of 1945, Americans occupy that part of Germany and I went to work for Americans and then I married an American and came over here. This was in 1946, July 18.
Mr.Liebeler. What was his name?
Mrs.Ray. Henry W. Bahlkow.
Mr.Liebeler. He was a member of the U.S. Army?
Mrs.Ray. Yes, 36th Division and he was—I don't know what outfit at thetime but I know it was field artillery. I can give you present address if that help.
Mr.Liebeler. Is he living in St. Louis?
Mrs.Ray. No, Hicksville, Long Island?
Mr.Liebeler. What is his address?
Mrs.Ray. I forget number—Evelyn Street. Evelyn Street—it would be easy to look it up and he works for Sperry Gyroscope. He is an electrical engineer over there.
Mr.Liebeler. You were taken from Russia at the age of 14?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you work for the Germans after that time?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. I imagine that kind of interfered with your formal education?
Mrs.Ray. Let's say it stopped it completely.
Mr.Liebeler. What formal educational background do you have?
Mrs.Ray. I finished seventh grade over there in Russia but I think—I don't know whether it is a little bit more or not. I had already gotten into algebra, geometry, and physics and I don't know how you compare schools here to school over there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any formal education other than that?
Mrs.Ray. When I came over here I went to International Institute in St. Louis for about 2 years to learn to speak English and then I went to Roosevelt High School, St. Louis, finished school and Washington University 2 years to study American history and English for my citizen papers and I became citizen 1949.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you move to Dallas?
Mrs.Ray. I moved in Dallas June of 1954. See, I married in June of 1954; I remarried.
Mr.Liebeler. What does your present husband do?
Mrs.Ray. He is in advertising; it is specialty advertising by the name of Pollock and Ray.
Mr.Liebeler. That is located in Dallas?
Mrs.Ray. 3508 Dickason.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time you met Lee Harvey and Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; I am not sure about the month. I mean closest I could come to it, I imagine, would be early November 1962. She had been staying at Mrs. Ford's house.
Mr.Liebeler. Marina had?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me up and said would I please see if I could keep her at my house a little while since she was going to have company. I said certainly she was welcome. She was alone with baby at the time and she came to my house on a Saturday. I am not sure about the date; all I know is the day; spent 1 day with me and since I have no baby bed she went back to Mrs. Ford's house. Sunday I moved her completely over to my house with baby clothes and crib and that Sunday afternoon, Lee called about 4 in the afternoon and he asked me if he could come see his baby and wife and I said certainly he can come out. He asked me "How I could get." I told him what bus to take and my husband picked him up at corner filling station on Preston and Forest.
He came out and they went in bedroom to talk. At the time they had some kind of separation, I understand, and they talked for about an hour in the room by themselves and by that time it was getting to be suppertime so I invited them to stay and have something to eat with us. He ate and she decided to go back with him. He told her he rented an apartment so my husband packed everything back up in the car and took them to an apartment, I believe, at Elsbeth Street at the time and then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months. Then I didn't see him for about 3 or 4 months, maybe 2 months. I had gathered a lot of baby clothes from my neighbors and friends and took them down to Elsbeth Street and stayed about a half hour, had a cup of coffee and I left.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Lee there then?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; he was there at that time and I felt uncomfortable because the more I talked the quieter he got and I felt a little out of place and in a half hour I picked up and left. I brought all these clothes for the baby. They didn't have anything in the house. He didn't seem to be ungrateful but looked like"We don't need it." He didn't say it but that look was on his face. Marina thanked me for the clothes.
Mr.Liebeler. Lee did not thank you for the clothes?
Mrs.Ray. Didn't say a word. I hardly exchanged two words with him. I talked with him that the baby was beautiful, small talk is all it was.
Mr.Liebeler. Going back to the time that Lee came out to your house and talked with hiswife——
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You said Lee had told Marina he rented an apartment?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have an impression they did not have an apartment prior to that time?
Mrs.Ray. I got impression that they did not.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember how you got that impression?
Mrs.Ray. Because I asked Marina, you know, where he going to take her. He said he had rented apartment. I said "What kind of apartment?" She didn't say. She sounded to me like she didn't know what apartment was going to be. She had never lived in that apartment. Later on when I talked to her on everything she described apartment—"I have living room, bedroom, kitchen, and bathroom"—so I am almost certain that is the impression I am stuck with. I didn't know she had apartment. He just rented to get them back. I have no idea how long she had been with her friends after that day they fight. I know she was at Anna Meller's and then Mrs. Ford's and then my house and prior to that I had no idea where she has been.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to Mrs. Ford about the reasons for the Oswalds marital difficulties?
Mrs.Ray. I asked her what was matter and she said he was mean to her; he beat her up and she left him because of that. I felt terrible sorry for her because Mrs. Ford described to me she could not speak English and didn't know anybody there. That's the only reason given to me that he struck her or beat her up.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Ford didn't go into any greater detail as to what reason for beating her up?
Mrs.Ray. No, no; when Marina came to my house I hated to butt in since she was only with me 1 day and 2 days and didn't spend night. I don't like to question somebody right away what is trouble, why did you leave—I am not that nosey.
Mr.Liebeler. This was the first time you met Marina when you went to Mrs. Ford's to pick her up?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard about her prior to that time?
Mrs.Ray. Yes, about a year before from Mrs. Ford. She said there is a new girl lives in Fort Worth; she just got here from Russia and, see, I am not sure about that time, year, 6 months, and I said "I would very much like to meet her to see how things are in Russia since it has been almost 20 years since I left Russia" at that time. Of course, I was very curious to find out if conditions had changed and what is going on now. I think it is no more than normal curiosity on my part.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversations with Anna Meller about why Marina came to stay with her or what the circumstances were?
Mrs.Ray. None with Anna Meller, not about Marina's circumstances at all. I came to Mrs. Meller one time to pick up few things that Marina left over there and that was the same time when I went over to take the clothes to Marina's house. I picked up a few things at Anna Meller's house but she had company at the time so we didn't have a chance to talk. I just said hello, picked up the things and went to Oswald's place on Elsbeth.
Mr.Liebeler. At the first time that you met Oswald himself was on the day that he came out to your house to talk toMarina——
Mrs.Ray. Yes; at my house.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you recall and tell us to the best of your recollection what Oswald said at that time and what the conversation was?
Mrs.Ray. My talk with him mostly just on—what did I talk to him about?I am trying to remember. It really wasn't anything. We just sort of talked about the children, small talk as I remember but he did get into a conversation with my husband which was more on economics. He could not understand how he have to work for somebody and man made all the money and gave so little in return. Anyhow it was something about workers and capitalists. As I can imagine my husband said some things because, well, he worked hard all his life and had men work for him. That was said at the house, then they had another conversation in the car when he took to apartment. I was not present so I do not know what they talking about. It was still on economics and my husband just came in huffing, puffing, said he never met anybody dumber in his life, doesn't understand simple economics or how anything works in this country. He considered him a complete idiot. He didn't know how in the world I got tied up with stupid people like that but I had very little to say to Lee Oswald that evening he was at the house.
Mr.Liebeler. When you spoke to Marina did you speak to her in Russian or in English?
Mrs.Ray. In Russian at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know whether Marina could understand English?
Mrs.Ray. At the time she could not understand but maybe few words like simple words like if I say bread or—I would say she did not understand maybe more than 2 dozen words and that would be simple things you use every day in the kitchen, not any English at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with Oswald the question of why he did not try to teach Marina English?
Mrs.Ray. No; but who did I ask about that? I believe I asked Marina why she didn't speak English with Oswald all the time. No; I did ask Oswald that, I'm sorry, but that was not that evening. I asked him that when I went to Elsbeth Street; I asked how come he didn't speak English to her so she would learn. He said so he wouldn't forget his Russian.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you say in response to that?
Mrs.Ray. I said after she learns English they could speak Russian all time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald make any response to that?
Mrs.Ray. None whatsoever. It was very hard to talk to him. He was absolutely—you could ask him question, if you lucky, you might get answer. He did not say one word.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald drank at all?
Mrs.Ray. When he came over my husband and I sit down and had a drink. I asked him if he would like to have something. He said "Thank you, I don't drink," so I don't know whether it was just that day or period but from the way he said it, I got the impression he did not drink because he would have said I don't care for any today or something.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything more about the conversation that occurred that first Sunday when Oswald came over?
Mrs.Ray. No; I don't think so; all was small talk. We talked about my cat, how children behaved, things that had no meaning, just to keeping the conversation going and he was so hard to talk to, why, I could not find anything he was interested in and I did not know him well enough to discuss anything else.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Marina tell you anything about her background in Russia, where she was born, where she was raised?
Mrs.Ray. Sir, I don't know who told me that; it is so hard to remember where I got the information from. I understand that she was raised by her mother until mother die and she lived either with grandmother or aunt, I am not sure. I think it is an aunt she said that raised her and the first time—like I said, information was from everybody; it gets to so and so and by that time, it got to me—first I heard about was she was only child and later on I found out she has sister and brother in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. She told you that?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; she did; she has sister in Russia.
Mr.Liebeler. When did Marina tell you that?
Mrs.Ray. This was about 2 weeks ago when I visited her but from what I understood before, she was only child. After her mother died she lived withher aunt. Now, I don't know if Marina told me that or I got that information from Mrs. Ford or some of the other people that I know.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say you are a friend of Mrs. Ford's?
Mrs.Ray. I have known Mrs. Ford for a long time. I would say yes. I mean she is not my very closest friend but she is a friend; yes. I see her now and then three or four times a year maybe sometimes more. She is the first Russian I met here in Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you at the Ford's party between Christmas and New Year's, 1962?
Mrs.Ray. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember seeing Oswald there?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; I do. I got there early because I had to bring some hor d'oeuvres for the party and they walked in and I was very much surprised to see them. I just said "Hello, how's the baby?" She said "Fine" and then I went and started immediately with the other people. He is so hard to talk to and this was a party and I did not want to spend my time drawing it out of him and thought I would go where there is better conversation going on and I did and in about an hour or so, it seems like they were gone. I just spoke that one time "Hello, how is the baby" and made few comments. They did not stay very long and I think that is the first time she ever left baby with baby sitter; somebody was talking care.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know how Oswald came to the party?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; later on"Katya"——
Mr.Liebeler. That is K-a-t-y-a [spelling]?
Mrs.Ray. Katya told me—that is Mrs. Ford—George De Mohren—it's something; I don't know him very well at all.
Mr.Liebeler. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Ray. Yes; they brought them to the party.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear any conversation about the Oswalds after the Oswalds left the part?
Mrs.Ray. None.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you present at any discussions over this weekend or during the period following the Ford party in which the question of whether or not Oswald was an agent of the Soviet Union was discussed?
Mrs.Ray. No; in fact, I have not seen anybody after the party for—normally, I don't see any of the Russians that were at the time of the party. We usually see each other maybe once, twice year; one time at "Katya's" house and maybe I give one, so I did not see anyone since that party except Mrs. Ford and we did not discuss anything about Oswald at all. I might have mentioned what is he doing, where he's work and she did not say. I really have no information after that party. I did not discuss them with anybody that I can remember and I know I never discussed about him being an agent, and neither have I heard it from anybody. Nobody said to me or implied he was connected in any way, you know, with Russia in any way at all. Nobody ever mention it to me and I have never discussed it with anyone.