The testimony of Mrs. Viola Peterman was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. Viola Peterman, 1012 Bartholomew Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr.Jenner. This is Mrs. Mildred Peterman, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. No; that's Milfred.
Mr.Jenner. Milfred?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; that's M-i-l-f-r-e-d. That's my husband's name.
Mr.Jenner. It's Mrs. Milfred Peterman?
Mrs.Peterman. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. What is your given name, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs.Peterman. Viola.
Mr.Jenner. Is that V-i-o-l-a?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You received a letter recently from Mr. Rankin; is that correct?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. The general counsel of the Warren Commission?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. There was enclosed with the letter three documents, weren't there?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. One was the Senate joint resolution authorizing the creation of the Presidential Commission to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy; another was the Executive order of President Johnson appointing that Commission and fixing its powers and its duties, and the other was a copy of the rules and regulations under which we take depositions, such as this one, and have testimony before the Commission; is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Do you understand from those documents, Mrs. Peterman, that the Commission is directed by the President to investigate the facts and circumstances surrounding the assassination of President Kennedy?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. In that connection, we of the Commission's legal staff, in addition to presenting evidence before the Commission itself, are deposing various people around the country whose lives came into contact with Lee Harvey Oswald and with other individuals involved, or possibly involved, in the assassination, and we understand that you have some information that might be helpful to us; is that right, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, I can only tell you what I know.
Mr.Jenner. That's all we ask, Mrs. Peterman. First, let me ask, are you a native of this part of the country?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; New Orleans, La.
Mr.Jenner. You were born here?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And was your husband likewise born here?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what is his business or occupation?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, he's retired now. He was taking care of the building and things over at LSU, but he retired last year.
Mr.Jenner. He retired last year?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; since March last year.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I understand you were acquainted with Marguerite Oswald, mother of Lee Oswald; is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; she lived right next door to me, at 1010 Bartholomew. I live at 1012 Bartholomew, but, gee, that was 23 years ago that they lived there.
Mr.Jenner. She lived at 1010 Bartholomew, right next door to you?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How long have you lived at 1012 Bartholomew, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, let's see—I moved there in 1941; that's been 23 years ago that I moved there.
Mr.Jenner. Was she already living there when you moved there?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; she was there, I would say, well, it couldn't have been more than a month before we moved there, because both of the houses was soldat the same time, but we bought ours after she did, because she was in there first.
Mr.Jenner. Were these relatively new houses?
Mrs.Peterman. No; they were old places.
Mr.Jenner. They had been lived in before?
Mrs.Peterman. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you say you lived next door to each other, was that across the street from each other, or right next door, on the same side of the street?
Mrs.Peterman. Right next door. There were three single homes on two lots, you see.
Mr.Jenner. Three single-family dwellings on two lots?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; on two city lots.
Mr.Jenner. Are they identical houses?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, they were when we bought them, but everybody fixed theirs up different, you see.
Mr.Jenner. Describe those houses for me.
Mrs.Peterman. What do you mean?
Mr.Jenner. Were they four-room, five-room, or six-room dwellings, and so forth—give me just a general idea of how they were composed, and how large.
Mrs.Peterman. Well, they had four rooms and a bath is all; just straight houses.
Mr.Jenner. Four rooms and a bath?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Of what construction; wood?
Mrs.Peterman. Wood; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any children, Mrs. Peterman?
Mrs.Peterman. I had four children.
Mr.Jenner. What were their ages around that time?
Mrs.Peterman. When she moved there and we moved there; right around that time, you mean?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Peterman. Well, let's see; my oldest girl was 21; my boy was 12; my next girl was 10; and the other one was 8.
Mr.Jenner. Your eldest child was a boy or girl?
Mrs.Peterman. A girl.
Mr.Jenner. And her present name?
Mrs.Peterman. She's a Herrmann now. She married Felix Herrmann.
Mr.Jenner. How do you spell that—Herrmann?
Mrs.Peterman. I think it's H-e-r-r-m-a-n-n.
Mr.Jenner. What's her first name?
Mrs.Peterman. Marian is her first name.
Mr.Jenner. Does she still live in New Orleans?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, she lives down in Chalmette.
Mr.Jenner. Is that near here?
Mrs.Peterman. That's down in St. Bernard; below, in St. Bernard.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a city?
Mrs.Peterman. What, Chalmette?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Peterman. I wouldn't call it a city; it's a different part of St. Bernard.
Mr.Jenner. But it's in the vicinity of New Orleans?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. She's now what; 45?
Mrs.Peterman. No; she's going to be 46, I think; I am pretty sure she will be 46.
Mr.Jenner. Was she living at home at that time?
Mrs.Peterman. You mean when Marguerite was living next door to us?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; she was.
Mr.Jenner. Your next was then 12 years old; is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was that a boy or girl?
Mrs.Peterman. Boy.
Mr.Jenner. His name?
Mrs.Peterman. Emile.
Mr.Jenner. Where does he live now?
Mrs.Peterman. He lives, I think it's 13 St. Claude Court.
Mr.Jenner. St. Claude Court?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Is that in New Orleans?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Then your next was a 10-year-old; right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was her name?
Mrs.Peterman. Myra; another girl.
Mr.Jenner. Myra?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Myra is now married; is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What's her married name?
Mrs.Peterman. Davis.
Mr.Jenner. What's the name of her husband?
Mrs.Peterman. Eddie.
Mr.Jenner. Edward?
Mrs.Peterman. No, Eddie; E-d-d-i-e is how they spell it.
Mr.Jenner. Does he work here?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; at Public Service.
Mr.Jenner. Where do they live?
Mrs.Peterman. They live on Cedar Avenue—713 Cedar Avenue, in Metairie.
Mr.Jenner. Metairie?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that part of New Orleans?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; that's in Jeff Parish, but it's part of New Orleans. It runs into it, I mean.
Mr.Jenner. All right; and then your youngest?
Mrs.Peterman. Let me explain about her.
Mr.Jenner. Go right ahead.
Mrs.Peterman. She wasn't really my own. She was my husband's sister's child. I didn't adopt her, but I raised her. The father and mother both died, and I raised her from 5 years old. She went by her own name.
Mr.Jenner. What was that?
Mrs.Peterman. Her name was—when she was single, Welbrock, but she married, and now it's Kushler.
Mr.Jenner. And that's the one that you said was 8 years old at the time?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; at that time, yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was her first name?
Mrs.Peterman. Cecelia.
Mr.Jenner. And she's married, and her name is now Kushler?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And they reside where?
Mrs.Peterman. 3207 Rabbit Street, Gentilly.
Mr.Jenner. Rabbit Street in Gentilly?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Is that a part of New Orleans?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; it's the part out by the lake.
Mr.Jenner. Which lake?
Mrs.Peterman. Lake Pontchartrain.
Mr.Jenner. All right; now, Emile; how old is he now?
Mrs.Peterman. Emile?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Peterman. He will be 34; no, 35. He will be 35 in September. He's 34 right now.
Mr.Jenner. He's 34 now?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And Myra will be how old?
Mrs.Peterman. She made 32 in February.
Mr.Jenner. And Cecelia?
Mr.Peterman. She will be 30 this month—I mean, in May—May 15.
Mr.Jenner. So at that time, Emile, Myra and Cecelia were attending elementary school, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did they all attend the same school?
Mrs.Peterman. They went to Washington, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Washington Elementary School?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where is that?
Mrs.Peterman. St. Claude and Alvar.
Mr.Jenner. And your son Felix; had he graduated from both elementary school and high school at that time?
Mrs.Peterman. Who is that?
Mr.Jenner. Oh, I'm sorry; your daughter Marian. Did she graduate from high school?
Mrs.Peterman. No; she went through Washington, and then she went to high school 3 weeks or thereabouts.
Mr.Jenner. You became acquainted with Marguerite Oswald immediately when you moved into those houses, I assume; did you?
Mrs.Peterman. No, I wouldn't say that. She was a person that kept to herself, and I did the same. She must have lived there about 3 years, maybe a little less, but I didn't bother her and she didn't bother me. I had my hands full with my children, and she had three little ones herself, so she had her hands full. We would speak, but that was about all.
Mr.Jenner. But you did become acquainted with her?
Mrs.Peterman. Oh, yes; I would say that.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware that she had three children?
Mrs.Peterman. Three boys, yes. The oldest one was John Pic, because she married his father before she married Oswald. She told me that herself, but now whether she was divorced from him or whether he was dead, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, one of her boys was John Pic, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, P-I-C-K.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think it's P-I-C, and her second boywas——
Mrs.Peterman. Robert.
Mr.Jenner. And the third?
Mrs.Peterman. Lee.
Mr.Jenner. Lee was the third one?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, at this particular time John and Robert were about within the age range of your three younger children; that's Emile, Myra and Cecelia; is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, they were more around Cecelia's age.
Mr.Jenner. Around Cecelia's age?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Lee, however, was considerably younger, was he not?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes. He must have been not quite 18 months when she moved there, maybe less; that's 23 years ago, you know, and it's hard to recall all of that, to be exact.
Mr.Jenner. That's all right. We want you to just give us the information as you recall it. Now, Robert was about what age at that time?
Mrs.Peterman. I really couldn't say, but I imagine about 4 or 5. I really don't know to be exact on that.
Mr.Jenner. And John?
Mrs.Peterman. He must have been at least 7 or 8, because he was going to school.
Mr.Jenner. So she had Lee, who was a baby infant, you might say, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And another child who was not yet of school age, and that would be Robert?
Mrs.Peterman. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And John, her eldest. Was John attending Washington Elementary at that time?
Mrs.Peterman. I am almost sure he did, but I wouldn't swear to that; I am not positive.
Mr.Jenner. So as I get it, during the 3 years that they lived there, Robert eventually entered Washington Elementary School, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, I couldn't say that. In fact, I think she moved before that, because she didn't stay there long. I don't think it was 3 years.
Mr.Jenner. About 2 years maybe?
Mrs.Peterman. Maybe along in there; she moved before 3 years, I know.
Mr.Jenner. You say she was inclined to keep to herself most of the time?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, she was.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't regard that as strange, did you?
Mrs.Peterman. No; I am a person like that myself. I don't bother much with the neighbors.
Mr.Jenner. I take it from what you have told me, Mrs. Peterman, that Marguerite Oswald was unmarried at the time, that she had just divorced her husband, or been divorced by him, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, the first one I don't know, but the second one was dead. He died and left her a widow. She told me that herself when she moved there. Now, her first husband, I didn't know whether he was dead, living, or what. She never mentioned him.
Mr.Jenner. When did you say you moved into that house?
Mrs.Peterman. In 1941.
Mr.Jenner. You moved there in 1941?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Well, in any event she was unmarried at that time, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know how she supported herself?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, at first I don't. I know she told me that she sold her house, where they came from, but how much that was or anything I don't know. She might have had insurance from him; I don't know. Then later she opened a little dry goods store.
Mr.Jenner. A dry goods store?
Mrs.Peterman. I won't say a dry goods store—more like a grocery store, I guess you would say—just a small place there in the front room. She sold bread, milk, candy, and things like that.
Mr.Jenner. Where was that?
Mrs.Peterman. In her front room.
Mr.Jenner. The front room of her house?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; it was a little grocery store.
Mr.Jenner. Would the local city ordinances permit that?
Mrs.Peterman. I don't know about that, but she did operate it for a short time—not too long. Finally she gave that up, but as far as I know that was the only money she had coming in at that time.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your impression of Mrs. Oswald, would you please; what kind of person she was.
Mrs.Peterman. Well, like I said—I don't know how to explain it, but she was a person who was not overfriendly, and she wasn't no snob either. I can't say that, but I don't know. She was the kind of a person that—I don't know how to say it. I mean, I had no trouble with her, and she was a good mother to her children.
Mr.Jenner. She was?
Mrs.Peterman. That she was, and she would always keep, like I say, to herself. She didn't do much talking, that is, to me; but now whether she did to the other neighbors, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't regard her conduct as strange?
Mrs.Peterman. No; nothing like that. Like I told you, I am the kind of person who keeps to myself too. I have been right now 23 years in that neighborhood, I—there are some people living around there right now that I couldn'ttell you their name. I am always inside. I never go out, you know, but I have nothing to say against her in any kind of way.
Mr.Jenner. She seemed to be industrious and a good mother, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir; she was good to her children, and she kept them all, you know, nice and clean, but I don't know anything about her business at all.
Mr.Jenner. What was your reaction to the two older boys, John and Robert?
Mrs.Peterman. Well, they were like all kids, I guess, you know, having a good time, but I will say that they were not running like the kids do today.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean by that?
Mrs.Peterman. I mean children back in those days were not like children are today, and I know, because I have grandchildren now, and they are altogether different now. Even Lee, he was a good little child, and he didn't do things like the boys do today. That's why I just can't see how this all came about. I can't understand it. We didn't even know anything about it until the man found me, you know. We all thought maybe it was Lee, but we just, you know, couldn't believe it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the names of any other children in the neighborhood who were about the ages of Robert and John?
Mrs.Peterman. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. Would your daughter Cecelia still have a recollection of those boys, do you think?
Mrs.Peterman. I doubt it, because she was only 8 then. She was small. My older ones might remember them.
Mr.Jenner. That would be Myra and Emile?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes; Myra and Emile.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Is there anything else that occurs to you that might be helpful to the Commission that I haven't asked you about, either because I don't know about it or I have neglected to ask you about it, or anything you might want to contribute?
Mrs.Peterman. No; if there was anything else, I would be glad to tell you about it. Like I say, he was such a little bitty fellow, and after she moved away we lost track of them.
Mr.Jenner. After they moved away from there, you never heard of them and you never saw them until this tragic event occurred, is that right?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And even then you didn't believe it was them until, as you said, the man found you?
Mrs.Peterman. I really didn't. Lee was a good little child, and Marguerite took good care of him.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I very much appreciate your coming down with your husband to talk to us.
Now, these depositions that we are taking will be sent by the U.S. attorney back to Washington, and you have the privilege, if you wish, to read over your deposition and to sign it.
You don't have to do that unless you wish, but I would appreciate knowing what you prefer to do, because if you wish to read your deposition and to sign it, then we will have to have the reporter write it out promptly and have the U.S. attorney call you in and then you may come down and read your deposition and sign it.
Mrs.Peterman. Well, as far as I can; I have told the truth about everything, you know, as much as I remember. Like I said, about the ages of the children and all, I am not positive. This was so long ago.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think you were pretty close.
Mrs.Peterman. After 23 years you can't remember like just yesterday, or the day before.
Mr.Jenner. Well, all right then, as far as you are concerned, you would just as soon waive the signing of the deposition, is that right? You don't want to read it over and sign it?
Mrs.Peterman. Yes, sir; I waive it.
Mr.Jenner. Very well, and thank you again for coming down, Mrs. Peterman.
The testimony of Mrs. Myrtle Evans was taken on April 7, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. Myrtle Evans, 1910 Prytania Street, New Orleans, La., after first being duly sworn, testified as follows:
Mr.Jenner. You are Mrs. Myrtle Evans, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And your husband is Julian Evans, and he accompanied you here today, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He is waiting outside until you complete your deposition?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Evans, are you a native of New Orleans?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And your husband?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; he was born in New York, but he was raised in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. And you were born here?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I was.
Mr.Jenner. And you have no family, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. That's right. Well, I have no immediate family. I have brothers and sisters, but I don't have any children.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Are you acquainted with a person named Marguerite Oswald?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; she was a very good friend of mine.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first become acquainted with her?
Mrs.Evans. In about 1930.
Mr.Jenner. About 1930?
Mrs.Evans. Something like that.
Mr.Jenner. She was then about 26 or 27 years old, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I guess that's about right.
Mr.Jenner. She is either 56 or 57 right now.
Mrs.Evans. Well, yes; she was about that then, I guess. I had met her between 1925 and 1930, about that time. I played cards with her.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of cards? Bridge?
Mrs.Evans. We played bridge, yes.
Mr.Jenner. How did you become acquainted with her?
Mrs.Evans. Well, through a friend, a mutual friend—hers and mine, and we used to play bridge together.
Mr.Jenner. Was she married then?
Mrs.Evans. She was separated from her first husband.
Mr.Jenner. Where did she live then, do you know?
Mrs.Evans. I think at that particular time she had a little apartment on North Carrollton. I never did visit her residence, so I don't know much about that. At that time she was living with her sister that lived right off of City Park, but it seems she had a basement apartment on North Carrollton. I don't think she was living there at that particular time. She did move in with her sister later, and from time to time she was with her, but at that particular time I don't think she was.
Mr.Jenner. What's her sister's name?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, I forget.
Mr.Jenner. Murret?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; Mrs. Murret.
Mr.Jenner. Lillian Murret?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; her first name is Lillian; yes, that's right.
Mr.Jenner. Did that acquaintance continue for some years?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I sort of quit playing cards, and I went and took an accounting course and went back to work, and I had not seen her for a while, and she remarried—to Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. You learned of that, did you?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; to Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see her from time to time in that interim?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I wasn't playing cards during that time or anything, but I might have run into her—I imagine I did, on the street, but I lost contact with her, sort of, and then—it was either just before Lee's birth or just after his birth; I can't remember; it has been so many years, but I met her on the corner of Canal and St. Charles. I think that was after Lee's birth. I think her husband had died, and I think she had just taken the baby to the doctor, or something. I think she told me they had wanted to have a little girl, but I can't remember all of that just the way it happened, you know. That's been such a long time ago, but I can remember meeting her; I just can't remember though if it was after her husband died, or if she was expecting a baby, or if she was the one that wanted a little girl. I can't remember if that was after the child was born. Most likely it was that she hoped they would have a little girl. Now, a lot of this was told to me after we became friends again, as to what happened.
I didn't attend her husband's funeral or anything, and I didn't start seeing a good deal of her again until—let's see; she finally went to work downtown, and I happened to run into her, or something like that. She was working for, I think, Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co., and I was a widow and she was a widow, and we again sort of regained our friendship.
Mr.Jenner. Your husband in the meantime had died?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I am married now to Mr. Evans.
Mr.Jenner. Your first husband, was he also a native-born American?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; now, I met Lee's aunt one day at a card party.
Mr.Jenner. That's Mrs. Murret?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, Lillian Murret, and I hadn't seen her in years. I am Catholic and she is Catholic, you see, and so they had this card party or some kind of an affair over at the Fontainebleau Motel, and a number of ladies were present, and it was for charity, and we played bingo and canasta and things, and she was selling aprons, and so she said, "Oh, Myrtle, did you hear about Lee; he gave up his American citizenship and went to Russia, behind the iron curtain," and I said "My God, no," and she said, "Yes."
Well, after that I didn't hear any more about it. I lost contact.
Mr.Jenner. When was this, 1959, 1960?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I would say 2 to 3 years ago, about 3 years ago, because I have been to those affairs, I think, twice since.
Mr.Jenner. Was that the first you knew or had become aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was living in Russia?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; now, it was undoubtedly in the newspapers and on TV, but I sometimes get to doing a million things, and I don't get a chance to read the newspaper. I just skip it. And if I don't get around to it, I skip the news on TV too, even the late news. So a lot of times I don't know what's going on, but she said, "Did you hear about Lee?" and I said, "No, what about Lee?" and she said, "You didn't see it in the paper? Lee has done gone and given up his United States citizenship," and I said, "Poor Marguerite; that's terrible; I feel so sorry for her."
Mr.Jenner. You knew Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I knew him very well. I knew his mother before he was born, and I knew him since he was a little tyke. Lillian took care of him for a while, you see. She had two boys, one by her first marriage, and it wasn't her fault that they got a divorce. He didn't want the child, and he wanted her to destroy the child.
Mr.Jenner. When you say she had two boys, you are talking about Marguerite Oswald, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; Marguerite had a terrificly sad life, and she was just a wonderful, gorgeous wife. She married this John Pic and had his boy, and he didn't want any children at all, and so she left him and went to live with her sister, and Oswald, I think, was a Virginia Life Insurance salesman. He collected insurance from the sister. They lived right off of City Park, and so one day Margie was strolling with Robert in front of City Park, and Oswald bumped into them, and he asked them how about him riding them home.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say to him?
Mrs.Evans. Well, she let him. You see, he had been collecting insurance at the house, and had spoken to Margie.
Mr.Jenner. At whose house?
Mrs.Evans. At the Murret house, and he had played with the baby. No, let's see, John was the baby at that time, and she was separated or divorced from her husband. I forget which now. But he supported John.
Mr.Jenner. You mean Mr. Pic supported John? You are talking about John Pic now?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; he continued to support him and he sent a baby crib, and he did everything like that, but he didn't want to live with her because of the child, so John never did see his father until he was, oh, about 18 years old, or something like that, so that's why those two boys were so close in age, you see, because she met Oswald, and he started taking her out. He asked her if she would go out to dinner with him, and she had been away from her husband for a year and a half or 2 years, and so she did, and then she married him, and she had this baby right away, which is Robert, and they bought a home out around Alvar somewhere. She never told me all this now; some of it I heard from other sources, like her sister and others, but she did tell me a lot of it, because we got to be real good friends.
She bought that home, and they had the two boys, and they were very happy, and then one day he was out mowing the lawn, and he had this terrific pain, and she was several months pregnant with Lee. She called the doctor right away, but before the doctor could get there, the man was dead. He had a blood clot, so he left her with two babies and one on the way.
Now, he left her with $10,000, I think, in insurance, so she sold her home, and by that time her two boys were old enough, so she put them in this home—Evangeline, I think it is, but I'm not sure about that, and she bought a home over on—what's the name of that street back off of St. Claude?
Mr.Jenner. Bartholomew?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I guess that's it. Now, she put the boys in this home.
Mr.Jenner. The Bethlehem home?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, Bethlehem; that's it. That's when I became friendly with her again. She was living with her sister for a while, and Lee was with her, and the two older boys were at the home. She was paying her sister board. But now after her husband died, she went to work, and she had a woman taking care of the little boy.
Mr.Jenner. You mean Lee?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Why did she live there, do you know?
Mrs.Evans. You mean on Bartholomew Street?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Evans. Well, it was cheaper. She bought a cheaper home. She had lived on Alvar after she married Oswald. But after Oswald's death she moved to Bartholomew. Wait a minute—I might be getting those streets confused. No, I guess that's right. Anyway, when Oswald died he left her this $10,000 in insurance, and now I don't know whether the home was completely paid for or not, but she immediately put these boys in that home and went to work.
Mr.Jenner. Is it your information that she immediately went to work rather than try to live for a while without working?
Mrs.Evans. She might have lived for a month or two, or something, without working, because I wasn't in contact with her, you see, but she had got this couple to come and stay with Lee, and someonesaid——
Mr.Jenner. What couple was that?
Mrs.Evans. I don't know what couple it was—somebody; she had put an ad in the paper or something—some young couple. I don't know their names. She said people told her that when Lee was in the high chair, that he used to cry a lot, and they thought they were whipping little Lee, so she came home unexpectedly one night, and the child had welts on his legs, and she told them to get out and get out now.
So then from there she bought another house and sold that, and—now, this iswhat she told me; she told me that she bought this little double house, and she ran a sweet shop for a while in the front room there.
Mr.Jenner. She told you that she sold that house and bought a double?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, as I recall, she did.
Mr.Jenner. What's a "double"?
Mrs.Evans. That's really two houses, side by side; you have a door here and a door here, two entrances. They call them flats or duplexes some places, but we call them doubles.
Mr.Jenner. O.K. I just wanted to make sure the record is clear on that.
Mrs.Evans. She bought that little house, and they moved in there with her three children.
Mr.Jenner. Was that over at 831 Pauline Street?
Mrs.Evans. Well, that sounds like the address. I never went there myself. I don't even know where Pauline Street is, to tell you the truth. It's downtown some place. Then she left there, and Lee, I think, still was with the aunt, and the two boys were down at the other place—that home, and she got this job managing the hosiery store on Canal Street, and that's when I started seeing her again, and that was between 1939 and 1940, somewhere in there; around in there—the early 1940's, I would say.
Mr.Jenner. At that time she was living where now?
Mrs.Evans. She was living with her sister then, I think, and Lee was with her, and the two boys were boarding at the Bethlehem Home. She would go down on Sundays to see her two boys.
Mr.Jenner. How long did she remain with her sister?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I don't know how long she had been with her sister, but after she took this position, she finally went to Texas, and I don't know—I couldn't tell you how long, because I just started seeing her, well, we would see each other on Saturday afternoon or Sunday, something like that, you know, just go around a bit together.
Mr.Jenner. How old was Lee at about that time, about 3 or 2, or what?
Mrs.Evans. He was 3 or 4 years old then.
Mr.Jenner. He eventually was placed in the Bethlehem Home also, wasn't he?
Mrs.Evans. Well, she might have finally got him in, because her sister, as you know, had a big family of her own, and I think maybe she might have finally put him in there too.
You see, they only take them at these places after a certain age, generally about three, I think. They have to be trained and all, and that's why Lee was always with her before that, and all her love, I think, she dumped on Lee after her husband died.
You know, she felt awful sorry for Lee, because he never knew his father. He was born after his father died, and he was his baby, and she always sort of felt sorry for Lee for that reason, I think, and sort of leaned toward Lee. She felt sorry for Lee because he never knew his father, I think, just as any mother would.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we have information that from sometime in 1939 to 1941, she resided on Alvar Street in New Orleans; does that square with your recollection?
Mrs.Evans. Well, Alvar, that was where she had her home, wasn't it, on Alvar?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Evans. I was told it was in that subdivision.
Mr.Jenner. And do you recall her selling that house?
Mrs.Evans. No; she told me she sold it, but I wasn't too friendly with her at the time, and I didn't know anything about that. I was working, and I didn't play cards then, you see.
She was a friend of a friend of mine actually, that I played cards with, and I wasn't too friendly with the girl at first, but only through cards, but at the time I was sorry for her when I first learned what her husband had done to her, but later on I lost contact with her all the way up till just about the time she went to Texas, or maybe it was about a year before she went to Texas. It'shard to recall those dates, to tell what year this happened and what year that happened.
Mr.Jenner. That would have been around 1945, or 1944, somewhere in there?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; along in there.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall her living on Atlantic Avenue in Algiers, La.?
Mrs.Evans. Atlantic Avenue?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Evans. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. But you do recall a period when her two older boys, John and Robert, were in the Bethlehem Orphans School?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; I went there once with her, in fact.
Mr.Jenner. At that time she was with the Murrets, is that right, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Then she moved to Texas?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With her children, of course?
Mrs.Evans. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. What occurred about that time?
Mrs.Evans. She married again.
Mr.Jenner. She married, and was that why she moved to Texas?
Mrs.Evans. That's why. She married a very, very fine man.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall what his name was?
Mrs.Evans. You know it; I will give it to you—Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know how to spell that, Ekdahl?
Mrs.Evans. I don't remember, but I knew her during that period all right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you become acquainted with him, Mr. Ekdahl?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of man was he, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs.Evans. He was very high caliber, a very fine man, and he had a very fine position. The papers said she was dragged from pillar to post, but that wasn't true. It was his work that took them to places. That's why she went to New York, because of his position. He didn't drag her from pillar to post at all. I don't know what happened to them then, because I didn't see them again. He died, and that's when she moved back to New Orleans, and they stayed in my apartment building. Now, I visited her in Dallas, and I knew Eddie Ekdahl.
Mr.Jenner. Did you know Mr. Ekdahl before he married her?
Mrs.Evans. I did.
Mr.Jenner. That was his second marriage, isn't that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; so she said. He had been separated from his wife for many years, but had never gotten a divorce, I don't think, so then he did get a divorce and married Margie.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember where he was from originally?
Mrs.Evans. Boston, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Is it your recollection that they moved to Dallas, Tex.?
Mrs.Evans. They did.
Mr.Jenner. Did you visit them in Dallas?
Mrs.Evans. I did.
Mr.Jenner. Was that address 4801 Victor?
Mrs.Evans. I don't remember that, because I went there with a friend of mine, to the Baker Hotel, I think it was. I used to go around with this friend of mine. She was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and Margie was living there with her husband at the time, and the two children, when I visited her.
Mr.Jenner. Her husband and her two children?
Mrs.Evans. Well, her three children, I mean, were with her.
Mr.Jenner. Including Lee?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I went and stayed a few days with her, but the address I don't remember. We didn't correspond during those years, but that could have been the address. It was a duplex, I know, and she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr.Jenner. At that time Lee was around 6 years old, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; just about at the kindergarten stage. Let's see—yes, she lived downstairs, and she rented out the upstairs.
Mr.Jenner. When you visited there, were the two boys, John and Robert, living at the home?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; they all lived together.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee, too?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The nature of Mr. Ekdahl's work was such that he had to travel, you say?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; he had to do a lot of traveling. I think he was a geologist; that's what my husband said he was. He was with some big company that he was top man with, and he was a good deal older than Margie, and a very fine, handsome, big man, but he had a blood clot, and that's how they got to be married as quick as they did, because of that. You see, he was at the Roosevelt Hotel, and he had nobody, and he had this blood clot and everything, and at that time he was taking Margie out, and he wasn't too well a man because of this blood clot and all, but he wanted to marry Margie, and so she married him, and they went from Dallas to, I think, San Antonio, and then I think they went to New York, and sometime after that, of course, Margie came down here, and she took an apartment with me.
Mr.Jenner. Before we get into that, Mrs. Evans, if you don't mind, let's go back a bit and see if I have this clear in my mind. You say you visited them once in Texas, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Other than that visit, you had no contact with her, that is, visually, in person, while she was in Texas?
Mrs.Evans. No; I didn't. Now, after she was married to Ekdahl and went to Covington, she had her other two boys with her. This was in the summertime, of course. She had them in the boarding school over there, even after she married Ekdahl, this was. She kept Lee with her all the time she was married to Ekdahl, of course, so that they would all three be together on these business trips he had to take, and they would stay in the best hotels, of course, and they had the best of everything, but that didn't seem to work out too well, having Lee with them all the time like that.
Mr.Jenner. This was when she was married to Mr. Ekdahl, that she had the boys over at Covington?
Mrs.Evans. Yes. Her two older sons were in boarding school, and in the summer they would all be together over at this place in Covington.
Mr.Jenner. Was this in 1946?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I don't know just what year that would have been, but I would say it was around there. I don't remember the exact years for a lot of this stuff, but I can just tell you the way I remember it happening.
Mr.Jenner. That's all right. Just go on the way you have been. The pieces will all fit together eventually, and that's what the Commission wants before it brings this investigation to its conclusion.
Mrs.Evans. I have had so many people pass through my life, it would take something to remember all of those details.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see the boys during that period?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; she would visit me for about 3 or 4 days, I remember one time, and Lee was about 7 years old then. He was a little fellow.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression of Lee as of that time, Mrs. Evans?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I would say Lee was a spoiled little boy, because naturally his mother kept him, and I think Margie would have had a better life if she had put him in boarding school with the other two boys, because then she would have lived with Ekdahl. I understand they were separated and divorced before he died, but you know how a mother can throw her entire life on a child and spoil that child and let the child ruin her life for her, and Margie clung to Lee regardless, but in that respect she was a wonderful mother. You couldn't find a better woman. Of course, when she married Ekdahl, she didn't want him to support her children. She tried to support them herself.
Mr.Jenner. That was her own decision?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; it was her decision. She wanted Ekdahl to takeher and Lee, and she kept Lee with them all the time, and I think that's one of the things that contributed to their divorce. She was too close to Lee all the time, and I don't guess Ekdahl liked that too much.
Now, when Margie lived in Dallas, she kept her three boys with her, but after she married Ekdahl, she put the two boys in boarding school, and she still kept Lee with them. Of course, they had to leave Dallas on these trips that Mr. Ekdahl made in connection with his work, but Lee would be with them every time, and like I said, it hurt their marriage because they never could be alone. Lee was spoiled. He was just a spoiled boy. I'll put it this way: He was her baby, and she loved him to death, and she spoiled him to death. One of the older boys, or maybe both of them—I don't remember, but I think they both went into theMarines——
Mr.Jenner. Well, one of them went into the Coast Guard.
Mrs.Evans. Well, they went into the service, and both of her older boys were very, very fine boys. John Pic was a lovely boy, but of course he never did see his father. His father never did care to see the child, the way I understand it, and at 18 I think he quit supporting him, or something like that. Now, when Margie decided to come back to New Orleans, I think she came here from San Antonio or Fort Worth, one of those places, and she went to hersister's——
Mr.Jenner. Would you wait a minute now, ma'am? Was Marguerite working at that time, either in Texas, or did she go to work after she came back to New Orleans?
Mrs.Evans. Well, she might have tried her hand at real estate at one time, and of course she had worked in different department stores, and at the time I caught up with her and ran into her, I think she said she was working then for the Pittsburgh Plate Glass Co. She said she answered a blind ad in the paper, and she got this job, and she opened Jean's Hoisery Shop, and that's when we would meet and go to lunch on a Saturday afternoon, and we got to be friendly.
Mr.Jenner. And you were working at that time also?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, sir; I was in the government then. I am an accountant, and I was with the government. We would meet, like on Thursday evenings and have dinner, and shop around, and on Saturday afternoon, usually at those times, and we became pretty friendly again, but then of course she went back to Texas.
I used to travel with this friend of mine who was with Mary Douglas Perfumes, and she traveled out of California, and she was going to be in Dallas for a show—some kind of display show, I guess it was, and I went with her, and during that trip I guess I stayed about a week with Margie.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of housekeeper was Margie?
Mrs.Evans. A very good housekeeper, very tasty; she could take anything and make something out of it, and something beautiful. She had a lot of natural talent that way, and she was not lazy. She would work with things by the hour for her children, and she kept a very neat house, and she was always so lovely herself. That's why, when I saw her on TV, after all of this happened, she looked so old and haggard, and I said, "That couldn't be Margie," but of course it was, but if you had known Margie before all this happened, you would see what I mean. She was beautiful. She had beautiful wavy hair.
Mr.Jenner. What about Lee?
Mrs.Evans. Well, Lee was a smart boy. He was no dummy. He was a bit of a bookworm, I would say.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me more about that.
Mrs.Evans. Well, he had hair like his mother for example, but he was a loner. That's what the children all said, but of course, I didn't pay too much attention to that, but he didn't bring boys in the house, I mean, and he would always seem to prefer being by himself.
Mr.Jenner. He wouldn't bring boys into the house?
Mrs.Evans. No; he never did, that I know of. He would come home, and he would get his books and his music, and then when he wanted supper, or something to eat, he would scream like a bull. He would holler, "Maw, where's my supper?" Some of the time Margie would be downstairs talking to me orsomething, and when he would holler at her, she would jump up right away and go and get him something to eat. Her whole life was wrapped up in that boy, and she spoiled him to death. Lee was about 13 about that time, I think, along in there.
Mr.Jenner. Was this while he was living with his mother at one of your apartments?
Mrs.Evans. Yes, this was the last time I knew anything about Lee, when they lived at my apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Was this after or before she had gone to New York City?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, this was all after her trip to New York. She wasn't with Ekdahl any more when she came back here.
Mr.Jenner. I wonder if you would hold that for a minute now. I would like to have you give me your impression of Lee up to the time they returned from New York?
Mrs.Evans. Well, I couldn't give you too much about the child, because I didn't know him too much. He seemed just like a normal boy. I mean, he didn't seem to be any different than his brothers, as far as that goes, but the way he kept to himself just wasn't normal, I don't think. I guess that's why they called him a loner, because he was alone so much. He didn't seem to want to be with any other children. Now, when she was over in Covington in the summer months, she would be there the full 3 months, I think, and they seemed to be a very happy family. They would go swimming and eat watermelon, and they had a couple of dogs, I think, in the backyard, and they would just have a good time. I would say they were really a happy family in those days.
Mr.Jenner. They were a happy family?
Mrs.Evans. As far as I could see, they were very happy, very closely knit, very much in love with each other, and these boys knew that their mother was putting them through school, and giving them what they needed, as best she could. She was a very good provider for her children, and a very decent woman. I mean, she wasn't a loose woman at all. She was very decent, a very fine woman.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that squares with everything we have found. I don't think any mother could do more than she did for them, as far as we have been able to find out.
Mrs.Evans. That's right. Nobody could have done any more for their children than she did, I mean, with what she had to work with. She was never well off, I mean, financially. She always worked and saved and made do the best she could.
Mr.Jenner. When she moved to New York City, did you lose touch with Margie then?
Mrs.Evans. Yes; I lost complete touch with Margie.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear from her while she was in New York?
Mrs.Evans. No; I don't think so. She might have written me a postal card or something, but I don't think so.
Mr.Jenner. Then the first time that you again began seeing her was when she came back to New Orleans, is that right?
Mrs.Evans. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear from her or hear about her while she was living in Texas, before she went to New York?
Mrs.Evans. Oh, yes; like I said, I was over there in Dallas with her for a week, and I kept pretty well in touch with what she was doing. For a time she lived—what's the name of that little town?
Mr.Jenner. Do you mean Benbrook?