Mr.Voebel. You see, he was 14 years old, and I just don't think those thoughts would have occurred to him at such a young age, any more than it would have to me. We were just boys, and we were having a fairly good time, as all boys ourage seemed to do. We would play darts and play pool, and do things like that which didn't cost a lot or anything.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I mean, did he say anything that would have given you that impression?
Mr.Voebel. In fact, I am afraid that some of these impressions that I am giving you may have been developed later, since this assassination occurred. I don't mean that I had all of these impressions back when we were in Beauregard together.
Mr.Jenner. I understand that, but the Commission is interested in the impression you had then of Lee and the impressions you have now as compared to then. We are trying to get the complete background of this man in order to possibly arrive at the motive for this entire tragedy.
Mr.Voebel. It's hard to get what I was thinking of then, and how I think now and separate the two; that's what I mean, because, of course, at that time nothing like this had happened, and I didn't have in mind trying to analyze Lee's personality or anything. You just don't go out looking for something like that unless you have a reason.
Mr.Jenner. You heard the rumor, or read about them at any rate, that Lee Oswald was studying communism when he was 14 years of age, did you not?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see any evidence of that when you were going around and associating with Lee Oswald?
Mr.Voebel. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did you put any credence in that?
Mr.Voebel. No; none whatever. As far as I know, I was the only one that would enter his home, around that age, so I would be the only one to know, and I can say for certain that the only things Lee would be reading when I would be at his home would be comic books and the normal things that kids read.
Mr.Jenner. Were you a voracious reader in those days?
Mr.Voebel. No.
Mr.Jenner. What do you say as to Lee Oswald, if you know?
Mr.Voebel. I really can't say for sure, but he did impress me, in the time that I knew him and associated with him, that he wasn't a great reader. We liked to fool around more than we liked to go to school, I guess you would say.
Mr.Jenner. You would not consider that Lee was a good reader?
Mr.Voebel. No; I wouldn't. I know my studies always came hard to me, even music when I first started with it.
Mr.Jenner. Are you still interested in music?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; I still play music.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say, in looking back to your acquaintance with Lee, that he had a normal curiosity about things, the normal curiosity of a young man of 13, 14, 15, or 16 years old?
Mr.Voebel. I would say that he had a normal curiosity, if I understand then what you mean by that. It's just that he didn't seem to be able to mix with people; that's all.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think that's a basic personality characteristic that has remained in your mind all these years?
Mr.Voebel. Right. It seems to me like he did like things and wanted to do things, but he just couldn't get himself to get with people, you see, and you just can't do too much by yourself. To me, I think that maybe his whole downfall was maybe a lack of communication with people. Of course, I don't know the reason. I am not a psychologist. I can't tell you why, but somehow I have that feeling because I knew Lee, and I knew how he didn't like to mix with people.
Mr.Jenner. I gather from this discussion with you that, up until this horrible tragedy happened, you had at least a favorable impression of Lee, and even though your opinion of his personality and attitude and behavior might have changed since you learned of this tragedy and since his death, you at least, up until that time, had a good opinion of him; is that right?
Mr.Jenner. Right.
Mr.Jenner. You think he was a normal boy, at least in most respects, and he was not what we have referred to as a roustabout or a member of a gang at school, or anything like that?
Mr.Voebel. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. While you were going to Beauregard?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But he did have trouble making friends at Beauregard; right?
Mr.Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, Lee didn't go out and look for friends. He didn't seem to care about having friends. He had a few friends, but I think that was the way he wanted it. At least, that seems to be the way he was best able to cope with things, to just more or less be by himself and go and come as he wanted to.
Mr.Jenner. And you don't think Lee was an outstanding student in his studies at Beauregard? You think he was more or less average; is that right?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; he was just an average student.
Mr.Jenner. How was his attendance at school? Did he miss many days; do you know?
Mr.Voebel. No; I don't think he missed much schooling. I think his attendance was pretty good.
Mr.Jenner. Did you boys ever discuss the Marines?
Mr.Voebel. No; I was not much on the Marines.
Mr.Jenner. Well, my question was did you talk about this subject with Lee?
Mr.Voebel. No; we didn't discuss that.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever talk about his brothers?
Mr.Voebel. No. I think that he mentioned he had one or two, but there was never any talk about them. I don't know anything about his brothers—I mean what they do, how they are, and what their life is. I have no impression of that whatsoever.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have the impression that he probably received his just dues in the world up to that point?
Mr.Voebel. I think I made a statement to that effect, but I can't really say for sure. Maybe it was later that I got that impression. That's hard to pinpoint right now, in looking back at all this.
Mr.Jenner. But did you have such an impression at that time?
Mr.Voebel. No; I had no impression like that at that time. Like I said, I wasn't looking for stuff like that.
Mr.Jenner. Well, sometimes you don't look for that sort of thing because you have a previous impression; isn't that true?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; that's true, but I don't think I had that impression at that time. I'll say this: most of the things about Lee I liked. I think I might have made a statement like that, about him being bitter toward the world and everything, but of course, that would have been my opinion since this happened. I wasn't talking then about when we were going to Beauregard, to the same school.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember making a statement to the FBI that in your opinion Oswald was bitter since his father died when he was very young, and that he thought that he had had a raw deal out of life?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember that statement?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you still carry that opinion, and hold it?
Mr.Voebel. Like I say now, I think this opinion was formed later.
Mr.Jenner. And you don't think you had those impressions then?
Mr.Voebel. No; I didn't; not back in those days. I formed that later.
Mr.Jenner. What was that embitterment directed toward?
Mr.Voebel. Toward authority, I would say. He didn't like authority.
Mr.Jenner. You noticed that at that time, did you?
Mr.Voebel. I think so. He didn't seem to like to be told what to do, or made to do something.
Mr.Jenner. Is there a Civil Air Patrol unit here?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; I think they have two.
Mr.Jenner. Two?
Mr.Voebel. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Were there two here at that time?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you and Lee have any interest in the Civil Air Patrol?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; I think I got him interested in it. We got to talking about it and I told him as much as I knew about it, and I think he attended maybe one or two meetings, and I think he even subsequently bought a uniform, and he attended at least one meeting that I remember, in that uniform, but after that he didn't show up again.
Mr.Jenner. He just attended two meetings of the CAP?
Mr.Voebel. Two or three meetings, I would say.
Mr.Jenner. And that's all he attended?
Mr.Voebel. Yes. He lost interest after that, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Who was the majordomo of the CAP unit that you attended?
Mr.Voebel. I think it was Captain Ferrie. I think he was there when Lee attended one of these meetings, but I'm not sure of that. Now that I think of it, I don't think Captain Ferrie was there at that time, but he might have been. That isn't too clear to me.
Mr.Jenner. Lee did buy a uniform to attend these CAP meetings and join the unit?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; he bought a uniform and everything, and he seemed to be very interested at the outset. He even got a paper route, I think it was, or something, to get enough money together to buy the uniform; he was that interested, and that's why I thought it strange when he didn't attend any more meetings.
Mr.Jenner. You thought that was strange?
Mr.Voebel. Yes. After all this happened, and, of course, this is my opinion now, I guess—not then, but I think now maybe he liked the uniform to wear more than he did like going to the school, with those classes that we had.
Mr.Jenner. You had classes at these meetings of the CAP unit?
Mr.Voebel. Oh, yes; we had classes, and maybe that was the thing that Lee didn't care for, because after those couple of meetings he just didn't show up any more.
Mr.Jenner. Did these classes at the CAP unit that you attended require some study?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; they did.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee ever talk to you about himself and his history, of his earlier life?
Mr.Voebel. His "history"?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; his background—anything about his family before he ever met you?
Mr.Voebel. Well, he mentioned the fact about his father dying, but he didn't talk about much else; I mean about when he was younger, or anything like that. Maybe he might have mentioned about coming here from Texas, and things like that, you know, at different times, but I don't recall all of that now. I got the impression somewhere that he wasn't born here, and I got the impression that he was from Texas at that time, but, of course, that wasn't correct, as I learned after all this happened. But, I mean, we didn't sit around talking about things like that. We were more interested, I guess, in things at school and things that were going around, more up to date, I guess you would say.
Mr.Jenner. Did he talk to you at all about his life in Texas, or to anyone in your presence, that you recall?
Mr.Voebel. No. I mean, he might have mentioned it at different times, just as a passing remark, or something. You know how that is, but if he did it has just slipped my mind, because it wasn't anything that would impress me so that I would remember it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you attend these CAP meetings once a week or twice a week, or how often?
Mr.Voebel. Twice a week, and now that I think of it, Lee might have actually attended two or three meetings. It seems like he maybe attended two or three of them, but anyway he quit then, all of a sudden. He just quit coming, so I figured he had lost interest in the whole thing.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any idea what made him quit attending those classes?
Mr.Voebel. Well, as I remember, we were having classes then on theweather, and that can be a drab subject, although it is essential, but maybe that's why he quit coming; I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Was this CAP unit coeducational?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Because sometimes that can stimulate your interest too, isn't that right?
Mr.Voebel. Well, to tell you the truth, no. I had no girl friend out there at that time. I had a girl at the school, but that was it.
Mr.Jenner. But there were girls out at this unit, attending these classes?
Mr.Voebel. Yes; but they were kept pretty well separated from us. They might have been in the classes, but the girls out there didn't interest me.
Mr.Jenner. Did they interest Lee?
Mr.Voebel. No; I don't think so. He wasn't very interested in girls.
Mr.Jenner. He was not?
Mr.Voebel. No. At least it didn't impress me that he was. He didn't show any inclination toward girls at all, that I could see.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have any sex deviation of any kind?
Mr.Voebel. None whatever.
Mr.Jenner. From your experience, he seemed to be perfectly normal in that respect?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. He might have been interested in girls, but he just wasn't pushing it at that time if he was, is that about it?
Mr.Voebel. I think he was more bashful about girls than anything else. I think that was probably it.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that you can think of from your acquaintance with Lee, from what you knew about him then, that you could tell us that would be helpful to the Commission, aside from what I have asked you?
Mr.Voebel. No; I can't think of anything else.
Mr.Jenner. Now, in taking these depositions, you have the privilege of reading and signing your deposition, or you can waive that privilege and let the reporter transcribe the deposition, and it will be sent on to Washington. However, if you want to read and sign it, it will be transcribed, and the U.S. attorney will contact you and let you know when you may come in and read and sign it. What is your preference in that regard?
Mr.Voebel. Well, I don't have to read it and sign it. I have just told you what I know about it.
Mr.Jenner. You prefer to waive that then?
Mr.Voebel. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Thank you for coming in.
The testimony of William E. Wulf was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
William B. Wulf, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Wulf, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you lastweek——
Mr.Wulf. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Advising you that I would be in touch withyou——
Mr.Wulf. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. With respect to the taking of your testimony, and I understand that he enclosed with his letter copies of the Executive order and the joint resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure relating to the taking of testimony.
Mr.Wulf. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. You did receive the letter, et cetera?
Mr.Wulf. Correct.
Mr.Liebeler. We want to inquire of you concerning possible knowledge that you have of Lee Harvey Oswald during the time that he lived in New Orleans during the period 1954–55. Before we get into the details of that, however, would you state your full name for the record.
Mr.Wulf. My name is William Eugene Wulf. No junior.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address?
Mr.Wulf. 2107 Annunciation Street, this city.
Mr.Liebeler. Where and when were you born, Mr. Wulf?
Mr.Wulf. I was born in New Orleans, September 22, 1939.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you presently employed?
Mr.Wulf. No. I am a student at Louisiana State University at New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. What are you majoring in?
Mr.Wulf. History.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been attending LSU?
Mr.Wulf. Four and a half years. I am a senior at this time.
Mr.Liebeler. You obtained your primary education and secondary education here in New Orleans?
Mr.Wulf. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you obtain that education, what schools?
Mr.Wulf. My primary education was obtained, up until the seventh grade, at Redemptorist Grammar School. For high school I attended De La Salle High School in 1956, and in 1958 and 1959 I attended Cor Jesu High School in New Orleans and graduated there in 1959.
Mr.Liebeler. And then from there you went to LSU?
Mr.Wulf. LSU, right.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been in the Army or any branch of the military service?
Mr.Wulf. No. I am exempted at this time.
Mr.Liebeler. The Commission has received information to the effect that you were the President of the New Orleans Amateur AstronomyAssociation——
Mr.Wulf. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Sometime during the year 1955. Is that correct?
Mr.Wulf. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, or what was it at that time?
Mr.Wulf. It was at that time an organization of mainly high school students in the city, mainly at De La Salle at that time, interested in astronomy, who owned telescopes, did observation, etc.
Mr.Liebeler. Is the group still active?
Mr.Wulf. No. We are still listed as active in the membership rolls of the national association, but we are not active due to the fact that most of the members are out of town, either in the military or in college.
Mr.Liebeler. In connection with your activities in the New Orleans Amateur Astronomy Association, did there ever come a time when you were contacted by or met a person who you either now believe or know to be Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Wulf. I believe it was. The one person who could have confirmed this in my behalf was Mr. McBride, P. E. McBride, who is in Florida at this time.
Mr.Liebeler. That is Palmer McBride?
Mr.Wulf. Right. But I had met Oswald through McBride. He contacted me on getting into the Astronomy Club at that time, and it was—I had originally believed it was 1953, but on recapitulating the time and all, probably it was September or August in 1955.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember how Oswald got in touch with you?
Mr.Wulf. Not exactly. It was either one of two ways. I believe he hadtalked to McBride or McBride had talked to him during the time they were working together at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and I believe he got in touch with me on the telephone about getting into the group and I told him—he asked me could he come over to the house one time, and I believe he soon did. I don't remember the time that elapsed between what I believe was the phone call and then the actual visit.
Mr.Liebeler. This fellow that called you and then came over to your house did work at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that correct?
Mr.Wulf. Most definitely; yes. That is what gave me reason to associate Oswald with this particular person.
Mr.Liebeler. This association was made by you at some time subsequent to the assassination. Is that correct?
Mr.Wulf. Yes; subsequent. I believe it was either the Saturday night following the assassination or Sunday morning before I got the call from the Federal Bureau of Investigation.
Mr.Liebeler. You had read in the paper that Lee Oswald had been employed while living here in New Orleans by Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory, and then you associatedOswald——
Mr.Wulf. No; not actually. I had remembered he had lived in New Orleans, and then I tended to associate the name too and the picture, and then I subsequently found out—I confirmed it when I asked the FBI agent did this particular person at one time work for Pfisterer's, and he said he believed he did, and that to me confirmed it was the same person.
Mr.Liebeler. So you had already associated in your mind the name Lee Oswald with this fellow that called you, and also the pictures that you saw in the paper?
Mr.Wulf. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And then as a result of that association, you asked the FBI whether this man had been employed by Pfisterer's?
Mr.Wulf. That is correct. One other thing made me come to the association, other than—I must stipulate at this time that when I had met him he spoke of communism and communistic association that he would like to achieve, and this also aided in this conclusion that I came to.
Mr.Liebeler. Now how did it come to be, if you know, that the FBI interviewed you?
Mr.Wulf. I have no idea.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not contact the FBI?
Mr.Wulf. No; I did not, because I was not absolutely sure, and it was a Sunday, either a Saturday night or Sunday, and during the chaos on the situation, and I believe I was personally affected by it as everyone else was personally affected by it, and I really did not think that the little knowledge I had would be important. I was even surprised that I got your letter from the Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. The agent that interviewed you didn't indicate in any way as to how they had been led to you?
Mr.Wulf. In no way whatsoever. As far as I know, the only person that knew that I had met Oswald, and that it was Oswald, was Palmer McBride, so I concluded that he probably got in touch with the FBI on the subject, or someone got in touch with them, and then that is how they got this particular knowledge.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first make McBride's acquaintance? Do you remember?
Mr.Wulf. Yes. I will have to clarify that. I can get the records from the Astronomy Club, but I believe it was 1954—that is a rough date—probably towards the end, probably—let's see—I am trying to associate it with the Astronomy Club dates—towards the end of the school year 1954–55, so that would probably be in—oh, March and April, around that.
Mr.Liebeler. Of 1955?
Mr.Wulf. Of 1955, yes. It is sketchy. I really cannot say for sure. I could probably get it from the Astronomy Club's records,but——
Mr.Liebeler. The occasion of your first meeting was that he came to join the AstronomyAssociation——
Mr.Wulf. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. With McBride. Did become closely acquainted with McBride and become a friend of his after that?
Mr.Wulf. Oh, yes. I still, up until about 9 months ago kept in contact with him, and I still know of his whereabouts, and when he comes to the city I still see him.
Mr.Liebeler. McBride at that time was working at Pfisterer's Dental Laboratory? Is that right?
Mr.Wulf. Yes, sir. I believe he was a delivery boy or a runner. I don't know the exact title of his position.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever spoken with McBride about Lee Oswald?
Mr.Wulf. Only at the time that—two occasions or possibly three—I think it was two occasions that I met Oswald, and I got some of Oswald's beliefs, and I told—McBride had always told me that he wanted to get into the military service as a career, especially rocket engineering and rocketry—like we all were nuts on rocketry at the time—and I told him, I said, "This boy Oswald, if you associated with him, could be construed as a security risk, and especially if you want to get into a job position where the information you know could be of a security nature or of a type that could be of a security risk nature."
Mr.Liebeler. You told that to McBride some time back in 1955? Is that correct?
Mr.Wulf. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What led you to make that statement to McBride?
Mr.Wulf. I made that statement to McBride after my second meeting with Oswald when we got into a discussion—I being a history major and always been interested in history, some way or another we got around to communism. I think Oswald brought it up, because he was reading some of my books in my library, and he started expounding the Communist doctrine and saying that he was highly interested in communism, that communism was the only way of life for the worker, et cetera, and then came out with the statement that he was looking for a Communist cell in town to join but he couldn't find any. He was a little dismayed at this, and he said that he couldn't find any that would show any interest in him as a Communist, and subsequently, after this conversation, my father came in and we were kind of arguing back and forth about the situation, and my father came in the room, heard what we were arguing on communism, and that this boy was loud-mouthed, boisterous, and my father asked him to leave the house and politely put him out of the house, and that is the last I have seen or spoken with Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you indicated that your argument was rather loud and boisterous?
Mr.Wulf. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald generally impress you as a loud or boisterous person?
Mr.Wulf. Well, he impressed me as a boy who could get violent over communism, who, if you did not agree with his belief, he would argue with you violently over it. This, as you know, was the period right before he moved, I believe, to Dallas. I did hear that he had moved to Dallas. I got that from McBride. And he struck me as a very boisterous boy and very determined in his way about communism.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he strike you as boisterous in any other respect, or strongheaded about other things?
Mr.Wulf. Generally a strongheaded boy that knew his own mind, thought he knew his own mind, and would do his own will. He wanted his way, in other words.
Mr.Liebeler. Then there never was any question ofphysical——
Mr.Wulf. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Contact over this thing?
Mr.Wulf. No, no.
Mr.Liebeler. It was just a strongly presented argument?
Mr.Wulf. No. My father just took him by the arm, and when he started hollering about communism and all, and my father had gone through Communist affairs in Germany in the 1920's, and did not agree with him violently, and he asked him to leave the house.
Mr.Liebeler. Is your father a native of Germany?
Mr.Wulf. Hamburg.
Mr.Liebeler. And he had been involved in some political activities with or opposed to the Communists?
Mr.Wulf. Not that I know of. What I mean, he came back from Germany following the war, 1919–20, when it was all upheaval. The Democratic Party was fighting the Communist wing and all. He remembered that and he just—well, as most Germans, a lot of Germans, do, they just don't like Communists.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember anything about the details of your first meeting with Lee Oswald?
Mr.Wulf. Very little. If I remember correctly, the main thing was that he asked—we talked about astronomy, and I drew from that, from the conversation, that he knew very little about astronomy, and it struck me that he wanted to join the group, because I expressed to him at the time that anyone with a little knowledge of astronomy was hampered in the group and mostly everybody in the group knew astronomy and we were not very much interested in teaching some fledgling all this data we had already gone through over the years, and he would actually be hampered in belonging to the group, and I actually discouraged him from joining the group for that reason. That is all I can remember of the first contact, because it was kind of late, it was probably 2 or 3 o'clock in the morning.
Mr.Liebeler. This was at a meeting of the association?
Mr.Wulf. No; this was at my home. McBride had brought him to my house. It must have been 10 o'clock at night or 11 o'clock at night, something like that, and we got into a conversation on astronomy in general and just a general topical conversation as far as I can remember. It is somewhat hard to remember, you know, after all these years.
Mr.Liebeler. There wasn't any discussion of politics or economics at that time?
Mr.Wulf. Not at that time; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Now can you remember anything else about the second meeting with Lee Oswald that you haven't already told us?
Mr.Wulf. Not specifically. All I can repeat is that we discussed communism in general and that Oswald showed himself to be a self-made Communist. I don't think anybody got to him, if you want to put it that way. He just learned it on his own. At that time I knew very little about communism, and he was just—actually militant on the idea, and I can repeat he expressed his belief that he could be a good Communist, he could help the Communist Party out, if he could find the Communist Party to join it, and at that time he expressed that he couldn'tand——
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate in any way that he had actually tried to find a Communist organization?
Mr.Wulf. Definitely. That is one thing that made me associate the name Oswald with this particular person, that he definitely was looking for a Communist Party to join and he was very disgusted because hecouldn't——
Mr.Liebeler. Couldn't find one?
Mr.Wulf. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald ever discussed matters such as this with McBride?
Mr.Wulf. Now this would be hearsay. Yes; I believe he had. McBride and I had discussed Oswald a few times between the second visit when we threw him out of the house or asked him to leave and his subsequent leaving for Dallas. I continually tried to get McBride to stop associating with Oswald, and he did actually, as far as I know, except for, you know, working hours.
Mr.Liebeler. And McBride told you that Oswald had also discussed communism with him?
Mr.Wulf. Oh, yes, yes; that he discussed it constantly when they were on the job and, you know, delivering dentures, and in their social association. It might be of importance to point out that both boys struck me as lonely boys. McBride was working at that time, he had quit school and was working and going to a correspondence school, and I think they tended to associate becauseof that reason, because they were just plain lonely, not knowing too many people.
Mr.Liebeler. This was true, in your opinion, both of Oswald and McBride? Is that correct?
Mr.Wulf. On this particular point, yes; that they were both—well, for one thing, I think that would lead a boy to get the type of job that they held at the time. I think most of the boys who held that job were that type of boy who were fighting education, except for McBride—he wasn't fighting education, because he was fighting the need for more money. You know, a young boy like that, his family was quite large and not of very great income, and I think this made Oswald and McBride associate probably with each other, but I do know that he told me after this second visit that—we discussed Oswald, and I discussed Oswald specifically as a security risk. The reason why I was knowledgeable on this was that my father was in the Merchant Marine and on a Navy Reserve ship that did require some security clearance, and I was quite conscious of it, and also during the war, because we were German and I was quite conscious of security matters and all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether McBride ever expressed any interest in communism or ever expressed any interest in Communist organizations?
Mr.Wulf. Not really; no, no. As far as I know, definitely not. He was strong-willed, but never, as far as I know, ever expressed really any belief in communism.
Mr.Liebeler. (Exhibiting photograph to witness) I want to show you two pictures which have previously been marked "Pizzo Exhibits 453-A and 453-B."
Mr.Wulf. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. I ask you if you recognize any of the individuals in those pictures?
Mr.Wulf. Well, yes; Oswald marked "1" on the top picture, "Pizzo 453-B," and, of course, Oswald again marked with the "X" in green on "Pizzo 453-A."
Mr.Liebeler. You recognize that as Oswald?
Mr.Wulf. Yes. That is one of the things. I saw these films on TV and I subsequently saw them at the station. That is Oswald, as far as I can associate.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say "these films," you are inferring that these pictures that I have shown you are still photos taken outof——
Mr.Wulf. Yes. These are 16 mm. prints—I can tell by the grain—and they are either 16 mm. or 32 mm., probably 16 mm. prints, and these are the ones, as far as I know, that WDSU had. I don't believe that is what you want though. That is the only one I can associate on there. I do not associate the other manmarked——
Mr.Liebeler. Do you identify this man as Oswald based on your observation of him at the times you have mentioned, and not from having seen his pictures at other places in the newspaper?
Mr.Wulf. No; I base that picture on—when I first saw those films originally, when it was originally shown on TV, I had a slight inkling that it was the same person, as far as I know. I mean, like I said, it was many years ago, it was—oh, 8 years ago, 8 or 9 years ago. He was younger, he was a little bit heavier then, in the face especially, but he seems to me to be the same person.
Mr.Liebeler. And that identification on your part is reinforced by the logical stepsthat——
Mr.Wulf. Right, the logical association. Yes; I admit this.
Mr.Liebeler. And that logical association is the association that we have already described throughout this record?
Mr.Wulf. Right, right; and also the time factor when he was in New Orleans, the association with Pfisterer's Laboratory, and that I know for a fact that in October of that year or early in the winter of that year that he did move to Dallas, because McBride told me that his mother and he had moved to Dallas. Also I knew a little bit about him. McBride had discussed with me a little of his family situation. I had asked him about it because of his attitudes and such.
Mr.Liebeler. How do you mean "his family situation"? You mean his mother?
Mr.Wulf. Yes; I asked McBride specifically how come this boy was like this, mixed up and all, and he said he lived with his mother—this is hearsay, of course, through McBride—that his mother didn't associate with him too much and the boy was pretty much on his own and a loner as such.
Mr.Liebeler. And this was a discussion that you had with McBride in 1955–56?
Mr.Wulf. Right, 1955.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to McBride about this thing since the assassination?
Mr.Wulf. No, I have not. I have only corresponded with McBride once, and that was about a month ago. I sent him an amateur radiogram requesting the address of a mutual friend in New York, but I got no answer, and we were wondering where he is.
Mr.Liebeler. I can't think of any other questions at this point. If you can think of anything else that you know about that you would like to add or that you think would be helpful to the Commission, I would appreciate it if you would add it.
Mr.Wulf. Not that I know of. The only thing I can—I don't know how many people have told you of this period of his life—I amplify that at this time Oswald was definitely Communist-minded, he was violently for communism, and this is what struck me as so odd for a boy so young at the time. I believe we were both 16, and he was quite violent for communism. His beliefs seemed to be warped but strong, and one thing that did hit me, he seemed—I told this to McBride at the time—he seemed to me a boy that was looking for something to belong to. I don't think anybody was looking for him to belong to them, and it may have been a problem, but he was definitely looking for something to associate himself with. He had very little self-identification, and at the time he hit me as somebody who was looking for identification, and he just happened, I guess, to latch on to this particular area to become identified with. That is about all I know of him at that time, and following that period, after he moved from New Orleans and went to Dallas, I knew nothing of him until I saw what I thought was him at the time, but I was not sure, the films that you showed me.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't have any other questions at this point. I want to thank you very much for coming in and cooperating with us to the extent that you have. The Commission appreciates it very much.
Mr.Wulf. That is quite all right. I am glad we could help.
The testimony of Mrs. Bennierita Smith was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mrs. Bennierita Smith, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Smith, my name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Staff members have been authorized to take the testimony of witnesses by the Commission pursuant to the authority granted to the Commission by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and Joint Resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week indicating that I would be in touch with you concerning your testimony.
Mrs.Smith. Yes; he did.
Mr.Liebeler. And that he enclosed with his letter a copy of the Executive order and of the resolution to which I have just referred, as well as a copy of the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission concerning the taking oftestimony of witnesses. Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter and those documents?
Mrs.Smith. Yes; I did.
Mr.Liebeler. One of the areas of inquiry of the Commission relates to the background and possible motive of Lee Harvey Oswald, the alleged assassin of the President. We understand that you knew Lee Oswald at some point while he was living here in New Orleans. Before we get into the details of that, however, I would like to have you state your name for the record, if you will.
Mrs.Smith. Bennierita Smith.
Mr.Liebeler. You are married? Is that correct?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. What was your name before you were married?
Mrs.Smith. Sparacio. My maiden name?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Smith. Sparacio, S-p-a-r-a-c-i-o.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mrs.Smith. 3522 Delambert in Chalmette.
Mr.Liebeler. Where and when were you born?
Mrs.Smith. I was born in New Orleans the 20th of January 1940.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you outline for us your educational background, please.
Mrs.Smith. Starting from kindergarten?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Smith. Well, I went to St. Dominic's. That is on Harrison Avenue in Lakeview. Then I went—it was either the third or fourth grade I transferred to Lakeview School, and then when I finished Lakeview School I went on to Beauregard, and from there to Warren Easton, and that is all the schooling I have had.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you graduate from Warren Easton High School?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you graduate?
Mrs.Smith. 1958.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you attended Beauregard Junior High School at the same time that Lee Oswald did?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know Lee Oswald at the time you both attended Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs.Smith. Well, I knew him from seeing him walk around school, and well, I guess I could remember him so much because he was always getting in fights with people, but as far as really knowing him well outside of school, you know, seeing him, I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now you mentioned that he was always getting in fights?
Mrs.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you tell us what you know about that?
Mrs.Smith. One fight really impressed me, I guess because there was this boy—he wasn't going to Beauregard, this boy he had the fight with, and he was a little guy. I think his name was Robin Riley. He hit Lee, and his tooth came through his lip.
Mr.Liebeler. Through the upper part of his lip?
Mrs.Smith. Oh, gee, I don't know whether it was abottom——
Mr.Liebeler. But it actually tore the lip?
Mrs.Smith. Yes; it actually tore the lip, and I remember—what is that boy's name?—the blond fellow that was on television that knew him so well?
Mr.Liebeler. Are you thinking of Edward Voebel?
Mrs.Smith. That is him.
Mr.Liebeler. V-o-e-b-e-l?
Mrs.Smith. He took him back in school, and I guess they kind of patched his lip up, but he was—he more or less kept to himself, he didn't mix with the other kids in school other than Voebel. He is the only one I remember. And they had this little boy—I think it was Bobby Newman—he used to take around with, but I don't remember too much about him either. I can remember he was little, he was short.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was?
Mrs.Smith. Bobby Newman.
Mr.Liebeler. Bobby Newman?
Mrs.Smith. But he was, I guess, the studious type. Well, it seemed to me. He was always studying, you know, reading books, and that is as far as—I don't know what his grades were, but as far as him mixing with other people, he didn't. You know, like when you go to school, more or less everybody has their own group. Well, there wasn't anybody he hung around with, except, like I said, Edward Voebel.
Mr.Liebeler. How well do you know Mr. Voebel?
Mrs.Smith. Not well at all, I mean just from seeing him in school. I knew his parents had owned the Quality Florists on Canal Street. Well, I knew his sisters.
Mr.Liebeler. You knew Voebel's sister?
Mrs.Smith. Yes; he has got two, they are twins, Doris—and they call the other one Teddy. I don't know what her real name was.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear what this fight was all about, the one you described in which Oswald had his lip cut?
Mrs.Smith. No; I really didn't. I just saw people standing around and knew there was a fight, and, you know, went over to see.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you get the impression that Oswald started the fight or that the other guy started the fight?
Mrs.Smith. I really don't know. I didn't know what happened. Well, I know this boy was, I guess, a kind of a smart alec, this guy he had the fight with, this Robin Riley. Well, he was always hanging around school but he didn't go there, you know, hejust——
Mr.Liebeler. Was this Riley boy older, do you know, or about the same age as the rest of the students?
Mrs.Smith. I think he was older, because he had a sister that went to Warren Easton with me and she was older, she was a grade ahead of me, and I am almost sure he was older than her.
Mr.Liebeler. This fellow didn't go to Beauregard Junior High School?
Mrs.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know if he went to school somewhere else?
Mrs.Smith. No; I sure don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the only fight that you can recall in which Oswald was involved?
Mrs.Smith. That is all.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see the television program that was played over WDSU shortly after the assassination in which Voebel appeared?
Mrs.Smith. Yes; I did see that. Larry Lala and Bob Jones had come to my house. Well, I knew Larry. He knew I went to Beauregard, and he called me up and asked me if I had remembered Lee Oswald, and when I thought about him, you know, things started coming back. It had been such a long time. And he asked me if they could come over, that they were writing this story on him, and I told him to come over if he wanted but I didn't think I could really help him, because it wasn't anything I knew about him.
Mr.Liebeler. This person that called you was a newspaper reporter?
Mrs.Smith. Well, he works for WWL. He takes the news films for them. And when he came in the house, I thought he would come with a pad and pencil, and he walks in with cameras and lights. He picked up one of my girl friends, he brought her over, and this other girl I went to school with, she was at my house, she had spent the day with me. It just so happened she was there. And then they just asked us questions, but I told Larry about that fight. Well, he had remembered the same incident.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you appear in the television program?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You did?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir; the three of us.
Mr.Liebeler. Three of you would be yourself—and what were the names of the other two girls?
Mrs.Smith. Anna Alexander Langlois and Peggy Murphy Zimmerman.
Mr.Liebeler. Now these two boys that you mentioned were classmates of yours at Beauregard Junior High School? Is that right?
Mrs.Smith. Larry and Bob?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Smith. No; Larry—I met Larry—gee, I don't even remember—I guess maybe at a school dance or something—and I went out with him, and he knew I went to Beauregard, you see. That is why he called me to see if I had remembered Lee, because I guess they were trying to get some—well, more or less a story together.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the other boy?
Mrs.Smith. Bob Jones?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Smith. Well, he broadcasts the news.
Mr.Liebeler. He works for the television station?
Mrs.Smith. And he just came. Well, he asked us questions and then we just answered him, but I didn't know him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what you told him at that time? You mentioned this fight to him?
Mrs.Smith. I mentioned that, and then he just asked us how well we knew him, and we told him we didn't really know him as far as—like we would know him from seeing him walk through the halls at school or in class, but as far as knowing him outside of school, well, we didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know where he lived?
Mrs.Smith. No; I didn't, not until, well, I read it in the paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your other two girl friends remember any more details about Lee Oswald than you did?
Mrs.Smith. No. Bob asked us how he dressed, and we told him, you know, that he always wore these sweater vests—they are more or less in style now, I guess, than they were when we were going to school—it was just like wearing your father's sweater or something, but, you know, maybe he was outstanding in that way. But that is all we told him. My girl friend told him about that, and—I am trying to remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee wore the sweater vests, or was that something that one of your girl friends remembered?
Mrs.Smith. Well, she mentioned it, and then, well, we did remember him dressing that way.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one of your girl friends was it mentioned this first?
Mrs.Smith. I think it was Peggy.
Mr.Liebeler. Peggy?
Mrs.Smith. Peggy Zimmerman.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anything else that the three of you were able to recall about Lee Oswald, either at the time you were questioned by the television people or after that?
Mrs.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this the only fight, the one we talked about? Was this the only fight that any of you had ever remembered Lee Oswald being involved in?
Mrs.Smith. That is the only one I remembered. Somebody had said he was in a fight with Johnny Neumeyer.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that one of your girl friends who mentioned that?
Mrs.Smith. I am not sure if it was them or if it was Anna's brother who told her.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether Lee Oswald dated any girls at the time he went to Beauregard?
Mrs.Smith. Not that I know of, not in school.
Mr.Liebeler. It was your impression that Lee Oswald didn't have any close associates or close friends while he was at Beauregard, with the possible exception of Mr. Voebel? Is that right?
Mrs.Smith. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now aside from your recollection about Lee's wearing a sweater vest, can you remember anything else about the way he dressed?
Mrs.Smith. He wore levis, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that different from what the other students wore?
Mrs.Smith. Yes. Well, they more or less wore slacks, you know, pants or khakis.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Lee ever criticized or given a hard time because of the way he dressed or the wayhe——
Mrs.Smith. No; not that I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that Lee was ever bullied or pushed around by the other boys for any reason?
Mrs.Smith. No; not that I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. There isn't anything that stands out in your mind about Lee Oswald that really would set him apart from the other students, is there,or——
Mrs.Smith. Well, I can just remember him walking, like down the hall in school, and he would just walk like he was proud, you know, just show his back and—but there isn't anything other than that fight. I think that is what made me remember him the most.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether people thought that he was peculiar or arrogant because of this way in which he carried himself and the way in which he walked?
Mrs.Smith. No. He never did mingle with anyone, you know. I guess they just more or less left him alone, unless if he ever started a fight with themor——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of Lee starting a fight with anybody?
Mrs.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know how thisfight——
Mrs.Smith. I don't know how this fight started, I really don't. Like I say, I saw a group of people standing around, and when I went to see, they were fighting, but Ireally——
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to Voebel at all about this?
Mrs.Smith. No, sir; I haven't seen him—gee, I guess since I graduated from Beauregard.
Mr.Liebeler. Now where is Beauregard Junior High School located?
Mrs.Smith. On Canal Street, but I don't know the address. It is near the end of the streetcar line, near the cemeteries, across the street from St. Anthony's Church.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it near the downtown section of Canal Street, or is it out farther?
Mrs.Smith. No; well, it is further down.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately how far would it be from where we are now?
Mrs.Smith. Oh, it is all the way down at the other end of Canal Street. I mean, you know how it is? The river is down here [indicating]. Well, it is on the other side of town.
Mr.Liebeler. Quite a way from here?
Mrs.Smith. Oh, yes, sir. I mean, you take the streetcar and you ride practically to the end of the line.
Mr.Liebeler. Before you got to Beauregard?
Mrs.Smith. It is about three blocks from the end of the line, the end of the streetcar line.
Mr.Liebeler. So it would be several miles from here, would it not?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir; I guess—let's see—it must be about the 4000 or 6000 block, something like that, of Canal Street.
Mr.Liebeler. In the 6000 block?
Mrs.Smith. I think so. I am not sure.
Mr.Liebeler. This is Beauregard we are talking about?
Mrs.Smith. Beauregard; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell me the area the people that went to Beauregard Junior High School came from? Was it just the area surrounding the school, or did they come from all parts of New Orleans, or just how did they decide who was to go to that high school?
Mrs.Smith. Each high school has its own district, so that the people that lived in Lakeview went to Beauregard. If you lived in Gentilly, you couldn't go to Beauregard unless you got a permit from the school board.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of neighborhood was it? What kind of a district was it that Beauregard drew its students from back in 1954, and 1955?
Mrs.Smith. Well, it's a nice neighborhood, it still is today.
Mr.Liebeler. Has it changed much since then?
Mrs.Smith. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say that it draws from an upper-middle class or middle-class neighborhood?
Mrs.Smith. Middle-class neighborhood.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't have any idea where Lee Oswald lived during the time that he went to Beauregard, do you?
Mrs.Smith. No; sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever know that he lived in Exchange Alley?
Mrs.Smith. No, sir; not until I seen it in the paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record a minute.
(Discussion off the record)
Mr.Liebeler. You said that after you graduated from Beauregard Junior High School you went to Warren Easton High School? Is that correct?
Mrs.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now does Warren Easton High School also draw from a particular district, or is that operated on a different principle than Beauregard?