Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went by bus—to Texas by bus. But what actually helped me was that my sister-in-law, my wife's sister, had a very, very close friend in Louisiana, Mrs. Margaret Clark—Margaret Clark Williams, who had large oil properties, large estates in Louisiana. That is about the year 1939.
I got to Louisiana, as the guest, I remember—with my sister-in-law's aunt, Mrs. Edwards. And then I looked the situation around in New Orleans and decided to apply for a job with Humble Oil Co.
Mr.Jenner. In New Orleans?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No. They had a branch office in New Orleans, but I had to apply for a job in Houston. So I went to Houston, and I applied for a job with Mr. Suman, who is vice president of Humble Oil Co. Also I met the chairman of the board of the Humble Oil Co. through mutual acquaintances.
Mr.Jenner. Did you return to Louisiana and do some work there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I worked in Terebonne Parish, on a rig.
Mr.Jenner. You worked on a rig. This is physical work?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Physical work, yes; lifting pipes, cleaning machinery.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, starting from the ground floor?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. If there is such a thing in the oil business.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Absolutely.
Mr.Jenner. Whatever the bottom was, you were doing it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir. Very well paid, by the way—a very well paid job, but very tough—at the time, you see, what good pay was at the time.
Mr.Jenner. I think we might at this time see if I can describe you for the record.
You are 6'1", are you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And now you weigh, I would say, about 195?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Back in those days you weighed around 180.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You are athletically inclined?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you have dark hair.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No gray hairs yet.
Mr.Jenner. And you have a tanned—you are quite tanned, are you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you are an outdoorsman?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I have to tell you—I never expected you to ask me such questions. I also tried to get various jobs otherwise. I went to Arizona.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. De Mohrenschildt, one of the things I am trying to do isget your personality into the record, because many people have described your personality.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very different, probably.
Mr.Jenner. I wouldn't say very different. But you would be surprised the kind of things that are said about you. I don't know that you would be surprised.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I know that I have friends, I have enemies.
Mr.Jenner. Well, everybody has.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I also went to Arizona, I remember, and tried to get a job as—I don't know if it is after this experience with Humble Oil Co.—probably—over—to get a job as a polo instructor at the Arizona Desert School. Since we played polo in the military academy, I know how to play polo. I am not an expert player, but I do know how to play polo, and I am a good rider, and was a good rider. So I tried to get the job in the Arizona Desert School for Boys. And for some reason I could not get this job. There was a job available. I don't remember what the circumstances were. I never got this job. But I think it is after my experience with Humble Oil Co.
Mr.Jenner. You worked in the Louisiana oil fields as—what did you call it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A roughneck, or roustabout, it is called.
Mr.Jenner. And you pursued that how long?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think 3 or 4 months.
Mr.Jenner. We are still in 1939?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Probably in 1939. And I got amoebic dysentery in Louisiana, and got very sick. I had an accident on the rig, was badly cut up—something fell on my arm, and then I got dysentery. And, frankly, I do not recall whether they fired me or I resigned myself. I do not remember. Maybe both—resigned and mutual agreement. But I remained very good friends with the chairman of the board of the company, Mr. Blaffer. And he gave me the idea already then to go in the oil business on my own. He says, "George, a man of your background and education, you should be working for yourself," and he explained to me the fundamentals of the oil promotion, if you know what I mean—drill wells, get a lease—drill a well, find some money to drill that well.
Well, I said, "Mr. Blaffer, frankly it is a little above me to go in so early in my experience in the United States—to go into that type of business. I don't think I am capable enough to do that."
Mr.Jenner. Well, you didn't have the capital at that time, did you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I didn't have the capital. But he said you could do it without capital.
Mr.Jenner. All right. When you left the Louisiana oil fields, what did you do?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Went back to New York, recovered from my amoebic dysentery. And I don't remember whether it is then that I tried insurance or not. It is possible then that I was trying to work at this insurance broker's deal. And then this friend of my sister-in-law's, Margaret Clark Williams, died, and left all of us a certain amount of money. My sister-in-law, Mrs. Edwards, myself—I don't remember what it was, $10,000 I guess, each. And what happened then—yes, then comes the draft time in the U.S. Army.
Mr.Jenner. That is right; 1941.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you are in New York City.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am in New York City. I am called to the draft, and they found I have high blood pressure.
Mr.Jenner. With the advent of the war in Europe, didyou——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I forgot to tell you.
Mr.Jenner. Did you volunteer?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I was mobilized by the Polish Army in 1939—since being a candidate officer, I was mobilized by the Polish Army, got the papers in 1939 that I have to return to New York, and I did return to New York in 1939. That was just exactly after my Texas experience with the Humble Oil Co.
Mr.Jenner. Your Louisiana experience?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Louisiana, Texas, the same company. And it was just—I was intending to return to Poland, because my father was there—I had very close connection with my father. Somehow I felt maybe it was my duty to be in the Polish Army.
And it was too late. The last boat, Battory, which took the people—I never arrived in Poland.
I reported to the Polish Embassy here in Washington. It was too late to join the Polish Army. Maybe all for the best, because I probably wouldn't be alive today.
Mr.Jenner. You havesome——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You have to refresh my memory, because, as I say, I never expected questions like this. Sometimes if I make a mistake, it is not my intention.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I don't suggest you are ever making a mistake. You are calling on your own recollection.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; I am doing my best recollection.
Mr.Jenner. At this particular time, did you have some, oh, let me call it, tenuous connection with some movie business?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. Facts, Inc.?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. That is another venture I went into.
Mr.Jenner. This was 1941?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What was it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have a distant cousin by the name of Baron Maydell.
Mr.Jenner. Now, he was a controversial man, was he not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A very controversial person.
Mr.Jenner. In what sense?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In the sense that some people considered him pro-Nazi.
Mr.Jenner. He was accused of being, was he not, during this period, a German spy?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No. I don't know that. But he had been an officer in the Czarist Army. He was a White Russian. And having lost everything through Communism, he saw the future of his return to Russia, back to his estates, through German intervention. Like many other White Russians. He possibly was more German than Russian—although he had been a Russian citizen, officer of the Czarist Army, and so forth and so on. A controversial person, no question about it. But I liked him. And he offered me to learn something about the making of documentary movies.
Mr.Jenner. Documentary?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes—which is Facts—what was it called? Film Facts Incorporated.
Mr.Jenner. Film Facts I think is the name of it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And he had a very interesting movie there of the Spanish revolution which he made. And this movie was shown all over the United States and was backed by—this, again, is my recollection, because it almost escaped from my mind. This movie was backed by quite a number of people here. I remember most of them—by Grace, who is president of Grace Lines today. So we decided with Maydell that we could make another documentary movie on the resistance of Poland. This is already—Poland had already been occupied. The movies were made in Poland, I think, by Americans. I don't recall that exactly—by Americans who were there during the occupation of Warsaw. And Maydell had these movies in his possession, and we decided to make a movie for the benefit of the Polish refugees.
Mr.Jenner. Resistance movement?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. And collected money to that effect, small amounts of money from the sympathizers of Poland. To me it was actually a very pleasant experience. I tried to do my best, number one, to make some money; number two, to help the Polish cause.
So I went to the Polish Consulate, made arrangements for the consul to be a sponsor of this movie. And we eventually made this movie, put it together. It was about 45 minutes long—a very interesting movie, very moving picture of the resistance. But financially it was not a success. I don't even recall why. Either Maydell never gave me any money or something. Anyway, we broke up our partnership.
The movie did make some money for the Polish resistance fund. I think they used it showing around the country. The Polish organizations in the United States used that movie to show and collect money for their own purpose.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I remember the picture was called "Poland Will Never Die." It was an assembly job.
Mr.Jenner. Now, your interest was a business interest?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; we also cut it together. We put the music together. I learned a little bit about the technical end of it. We did not own the studio, but we used the studio on the west side in New York to have the technical facilities. Not very complicated. But we did it all together.
Mr.Jenner. Was your grandfather born in this country?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; great grandfather, or great, great grandfather.
Mr.Jenner. Sergius Von Mohrenschildt, born somewhere in Pennsylvania, later went to Russia, entered the oil business?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I will be darned. I didn't know that.
Mr.Jenner. I am not saying it is so.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. We have in the family some Baltic Swede, an ancestor of ours, who was an officer of the Independence Army. But his name was not Mohrenschildt. He was Baron Hilienfelt. My brother knows of that, because he is more interested in it. He became an officer in the Army of Independence, took the name of Ross. He was an officer in the Army of Independence, and then went back to Europe and died there. And somebody was telling me there was on his tomb in Sweden, I went later on to Sweden, and I was curious and inquired about it. It was said he was a lieutenant or captain in the American Army of Independence. So my brother, I think, because of that, being an older member of the family, had the right to be—what do you call it—adescendant——
Mr.Jenner. Of the American Revolution?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. He told me either he became a member of it, or could become a member of it. I have to ask him about that.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Did you once describe your work in the insurance business as the lousiest, stinkingest, sorriest type of business possible?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that wine company—was that the Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I also was doing some selling of wine in Vintage Wine, Inc.
Mr.Jenner. On a commission?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you have mentioned the Shumaker Company.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is the name Pierre Fraiss familiar to you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is one of my best friends.
Mr.Jenner. Is he still alive?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What business was he in then?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He was then chief of export of Schumaker and Company.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mr. Fraiss have any connection with the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you become involved with him in that connection?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, it was just probably in 1941, I presume, in 1941.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, we collected facts on people involved in pro-German activity,and——
Mr.Jenner. This was anti-German activity?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On behalf of the French intelligence in the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was never an official member of it, you see, but I worked with Pierre Fraiss, and it was my understanding that it was French intelligence.
Mr.Jenner. And did that work take you around the country?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think we went to Texas together again and tried to contact the oil companies in regard to purchases of oil for the French interests.
Mr.Jenner. Were the Germans also seeking to obtain oil?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that is right.
Mr.Jenner.And——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We were trying to out-bid them. I think the United States were not at war yet at the time.
Mr.Jenner. That is right.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And so the French intelligence devised a system whereby they could prevent the Germans and Italians from buying oil by outbidding them on the free market. We went to Texas. We had some contacts there with oil companies. And also in California. There we met the Superior Oil people of California and other people, too, whose names now I have forgotten.
Mr.Jenner. When was that work completed?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I could not tell you exactly, but I think it is about—it was not completed. We just somehow petered out.
Mr.Jenner. Were you compensated?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No—just my expenses, traveling expenses, and daily allowance. It was handled by Mr. Fraiss. But no salary.
Mr.Jenner. Hadyou——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think this whole thing, when the United States got into war there was no more activity on their part, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, there was no need to outbid the Germans, because they could not buy oil here anyhow.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. So that is how it ended.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned a Mrs. Williams. Was that Margaret Williams?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she made a bequest to you of $5,000, wasn't it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes—I think $5,000—I thought it was $10,000, frankly.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember being interviewed in February 1945?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. By whom?
Mr.Jenner. Some agents of the Immigration and Naturalization Service.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In 1945?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They interviewed me a couple of times.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you have been interviewed more than once.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Well, at that time you are reported to have said that Mrs. Williams left you the sum of $5,000, and I suggest to you that your recollection was better in 1945 than it is now.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, at or about the time that you were doing work with Mr. Fraiss, did you meet a lady by the name of Lilia Pardo Larin?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She was in this country, was she?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, boy. Do you want to have everything about me? Okay. I met her through a Brazilian friend of mine.
Mr.Jenner. What was his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The King of Bananas of Brazil—his name will come back to me. Dr.—I forgot his name. Anyway, a rich Brazilian, medical doctor, very wealthy man, who traveled between Brazil and New York. Just recently I was talking about him with the Brazilian Ambassador in Haiti, and he says he is still alive and doing very well.
Dr. Palo Machado, Decio de Paulo Machado. An enormously wealthy Brazilian, who calls himself the banana king, who liked American girls, the good life, and very good businessman at the same time.
Mr.Jenner. You liked American girls, too, didn't you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am not queer, you know. Although some people accuse me of that even—even of that. Not as much as some other people, you know—because this girl really was the love of my life—Lilia Larin. Anyway, both Machado and I fell in love with this girl. She was a divorcee.
Mr.Jenner. She wasn't divorced as yet, was she?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She was divorced already once. But she had a husband some place in the background, who was a Frenchman.
Mr.Jenner. Guasco?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. With whom I got into a fistfight. Well, anyway, the best man won, as it goes in the book, and Lilia and I fell in love—I just got a discharge from the military service in the United States, 4-F, and she invited me to come with her to Mexico. This was my experience with the FBI. Really, it is so ridiculous that it is beyond comprehension.
Mr.Jenner. Well, on your way toMexico——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Around Corpus Christi—really, if we didn't have a sad story to discuss, the death of the President, you could laugh about some of the activity of the FBI, and the money they spend following false trails.
Mr.Jenner. Well, they don't know they are false when they are following them.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I don't know whose advice they followed.
But, anyway, here we were about ready to enter Mexico and stopped for awhile in Corpus Christi. And there we decided to go to the beach, from Corpus Christi. I think my visa was not ready yet.
Mr.Jenner. You stayed at the Nueces Hotel in Corpus Christi?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and we went to the beach.
On the way back from the beach, all of a sudden our car was stopped by some characters.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. You went to Aransas Pass?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And when you were in Aransas Pass, what did you do?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We swam; and probably stayed on the beach enjoying the sunshine.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. What do they say we did?
Mr.Jenner. Did you make—take some photographs when you were in Aransas Pass?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Possibly; of each other.
Mr.Jenner. You took no photographs of a Coast Guard station at Aransas Pass?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't recall that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make any sketches?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes—because I like to sketch. By the way, I forgot to tell you, I like to sketch. I sketched the dunes, the coastline, but not the Coast Guard station. Who gives a damn about the Coast Guard station in Aransas Pass?
Mr.Jenner. I can tell you that is what got you into trouble.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Is that so? Well, you know, you are the first one to tell me about that.
Mr.Jenner. I want to know this. This interest that you say you have, which I will bring out later, in sketching, in painting, water colors, and otherwise—youand this lady with whom you were in love were down at Aransas Pass, you went down there for the purpose of having an outing?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I even have those sketches today, of the Bay of Corpus Christi, of the seashore near Aransas Pass.
Mr.Jenner. You apparently were not aware of the fact this country was then at war.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. But nobody told me there was any military installations around Aransas Pass.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you were seen sketching the countryside.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that aroused suspicion.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. That is the whole thing.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you were driving cross-country, were you not, with this lady friend of yours?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And on the way back then from AransasPass——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Some characters stopped the car and came out of the bushes, and they said, "You are a German spy." They said, "You are a German citizen, you are a German spy." It was very strange. Here is my Polish passport. So—they never said anything about sketching. I thought they were from some comedy actors.
Mr.Jenner. Didn't they identify themselves?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think they said they were from the FBI.
Mr.Jenner. They might have been from some other government service.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Maybe some other government service. But I have the impression they told me they were from the FBI, and they followed me all the way from New York—all the way from New York.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, five men stopped you at that time, searched your car?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Searched the car, found absolutely nothing, except the water colors, the sketches. I still have the sketches.
Mr.Jenner. With that experience, did you proceed on into Mexico?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner.And——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They were very insulting to this Mexican lady, very insulting. And I think she made a complaint about them later on to the Mexican Ambassador. And being a vicious Mexican girl, she doesn't forget that. I think she told them they stole something from her. That I do not recall exactly.
Mr.Jenner. As near as I can tell, she never made any such complaint officially.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think she told me she will complain officially.
Mr.Jenner. She complained, but she never complained anything was stolen.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You reached Mexico City?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And—with this lady.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you remained in Mexico how long?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, that is 5 months, 6 months—until they expelled me from Mexico.
Mr.Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection—that you made a statement in 1945 when you were questioned that you remained in Mexico City for approximately 9 months, not doing much of anything except painting and going around with Lilia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. I did something. I invested some money in a sugar factory there. I visited a sugar company there, and the manager of the sugar company told me to invest some money in that outfit, because it was going to—the stock was going to go up, which I did. I made some nice money out of that investment.
Mr.Jenner. You had funds when you went into Mexico, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You had some letters of credit?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would that amount to around $6,000?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Probably.
Mr.Jenner. Did you travel to various places in Mexico during this 9 months with this lady?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I had an apartment on my own in Mexico City, on Avenue De—the main street of Mexico City. I don't recall the name. Paseo de la reforma.
Mr.Jenner. Towards the end of that 9 months you ran into some difficulty in Mexico, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Boy, did I get in difficulty.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a man by the name of Maxino Comacho?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. General in the Mexican Army.
Mr.Jenner. And as a result of—just give me that in capsule form.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think he wanted to take my girl friend away from me. We were going to get married.
Mr.Jenner. You were serious about that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very serious. She was getting a divorce. I think by the time she got to Mexico—she already got a Mexican divorce. I am sure she did. She was already free.
Mr.Jenner. She had a Mexican divorce, but there was some question about whether it was good in the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right; something like that. Anyway, she was getting a divorce. She was an exceedingly beautiful person. We thought about getting married. And then this character intervened and had me thrown out of the country.
Mr.Jenner. I am not interested in his accusation, but he made some accusation?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He did, really?
Mr.Jenner. I am asking you.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; no accusation. He said, "You are persona non grata in Mexico." I actually went to the American Embassy, as far as I remember, and said, "I am a resident of the United States, and why am I being thrown out of the country?" I don't know if they have done anything about it. Anyway, they suggested for me to leave, and go back to the States.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't leave immediately, did you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I went into hiding for a few days, because some Mexican friends tried to have it all fixed. I remember the names of those Mexicans who tried to help me.
Mr.Jenner. Manuel Garza; was he one of them?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And your attorney?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and Cuellar, another attorney. He is still a good friend of mine.
Mr.Jenner. You then returned to the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They said, "That is the best way for you, to leave, because you cannot fight against the constitutional forces of Mexico."
Mr.Jenner. While in Mexico, you engaged in no espionage for anybody?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. You were in love with this lady?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you saw her frequently, and her friends and other friends, and did some traveling around Mexico?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you get the money to do that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, $6,000, you know. And then we shared alike. And I told you that life in Mexico was very cheap at the time. You could live on a hundred dollars a month. One of my best friends there at the time was a young MacArthur boy.
Mr.Jenner. General MacArthur's son?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Nephew, the son of MacArthur, the playwright. He was also living in Mexico, very close friends. We made some trips together. The son of John MacArthur.
Mr.Jenner. You eventually returned to America, to the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You went back to New York?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. By train?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As a matter of fact, you went by chair car?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That I didn't remember. How did you know that? I don't remember, frankly. Those FBI people are excellent in following a chair car. But, believe me, they are veryoften——
Mr.Jenner. Was it about this time when you returned that you started to work on your book, "A Son of the Revolution"?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we are in what year—about 1942, 1943?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, about that.
Mr.Jenner. 1942, I think.
Now, upon your return to New York, what did you do?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I was working on that book. I sold that interest in the sugar company—that is, the Mexican outfit I told you about—and then I remember once I went to Palm Beach.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. What else did I do then?
Mr.Jenner. When you reached Palm Beach you met the lady who became your first wife, Dorothy Pierson?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me who was Dorothy Pierson?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Dorothy Pierson was an attractive girl, the daughter of a local real estate man whose mother was married to an Italian, Cantagalli, Lorenzo Cantagalli, from Florence. And the mother and daughter came back to the United States during the war. She was the daughter of Countess Cantagalli by the first husband, who was an American. That is why her name was Pierson. And, anyway, Dorothy and I fell in love with each other and got married.
Mr.Jenner. She was quite young, was she not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very young.
Mr.Jenner. About 17 or 18?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you subsequently married where?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In New York.
Mr.Jenner. In New York City?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. New York City.
Mr.Jenner. And that marriage subsequently ended in divorce, did it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. About a year later.
Mr.Jenner. You were married just a short time?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Just a short time. A child was born.
Mr.Jenner. There was a child born of that marriage?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that child's name was Alexandra?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Is she still alive?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I will deal with her subsequently, if I might. The divorce took place—well, we might as well close up with Lilia. You never married her?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. When you got back to the UnitedStates——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We pursued correspondence, and I intended to marry her, and go back to Mexico. But there is no way of getting back to Mexico.
Mr.Jenner. The records indicate that you made some effort here in Washington to obtain reentry into Mexico, and you were unable to do so.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And that Lilia attempted to assist you.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And she attempted to come into this country?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. She also was persona non grata at the moment, is that right?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She had two sons?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. One of them was in Racine, Wis.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Both of them were in military academy—young boys.
Mr.Jenner. And in any event, that eventually petered out?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you met Dorothy Pierson in Palm Beach, Fla.?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you subsequently married her in New York City, on the 16th of June 1943?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is the date. The dates of my marriage are very vague now in my mind. I am taking your word for it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I don't want you to take my word for it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It is probably correct. You must have it some place.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall your daughter's birthday—it was on Christmas Day, was it not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. 1943?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. During the period you were married to Dorothy in New York City, what did you do, if anything, other than work on your proposed book?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I had an exhibition of my paintings.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I want to get into that. While you were in Mexico, did you do some painting?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I did a lot of painting—a whole tremendous file of paintings in Mexico.
Mr.Jenner. And did you subsequently exhibit those paintings?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Newton Gallery, New York, 57th Street.
Mr.Jenner. And did those paintings receive comment from the critics?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The newspapers wrote about them, that they were original, but the sales were hardly successful, if I may say so.
Mr.Jenner. Do you still have some of those paintings?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; some I have given away, but I still have some.
Mr.Jenner. They are water colors?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Water colors, washes; yes. But no military installation—the tropical jungle. Girls, tropical jungle, Mexican types—I am very fond of Mexico. Roderick MacArthur and I tried to make a trip at the time through the wilderness of Mexico together in an old Ford which belonged to him; the road did not exist yet, so we went together in this old broken down Ford, drove, drove and drove a couple of days with no roads, and finally oneevening——
Mr.Jenner. This is in Mexico?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; during that time.
Mr.Jenner. During the 9 months you were there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we hit a steel pole sticking out in the middle of the trail, and the whole car disintegrated under us. So we walked back acouple of days in order to get back to Mexico City. We left the car right there.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. If you see him in Chicago—I will write to him again; and I hope to see him.
Mr.Jenner. You came to Texas in 1944, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 1944.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall making a loan atthe——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Russian Student Fund?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. After my divorce I decided that I am still interested in this oil business, and all my pursuits in various directions are not too successful, so I should go back to school and study geology and petroleum engineering.
Mr.Jenner. Had you made inquiry at the Colorado School of Mines?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Tried Colorado School of Mines, Rice Institute, and University of Texas.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You are now about 33 years old, somewhere in that neighborhood?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. During these years you led sort of a bohemian life, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Well, you see—bohemian and trying to make a buck, as you might call it.
Mr.Jenner. I am trying to bring out your personality.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. But you see the main reason I actually came to the United States is to look for a country which did not have—which was a melting pot, because I am a melting pot myself, as you can see. I changed from one country to another, a complete mixture. So I thought that would fit me right. And eventually it did. It took a long time to get adjusted to it. The first five years are very difficult in the United States. I didn't speak English very well. And it was just tough going. Fortunately I had friends, acquaintances, and a lot of relations. But, otherwise, I probably would have starved. And it did actually happen that I did starve occasionally. So I decided togo——
Mr.Jenner. You were young and full of energy?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. While working for the Humble Oil Co. I said that a man without the education in that particular field—I did not have the background of geology or petroleum engineering, except that I kept on studying by myself. I didn't have much chance to succeed. I was wrong, by the way. I should have followed Mr. Blaffer's advice and gone in the oil business, and I would have been a multimillionaire today.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you might still be.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I probably will be. But really that was—he was the man, the only man who gave me the right advice—of all my friends and acquaintances. He said, "George, go on your own and try to speculate on oil leases and drill wells on your own," which is the basis of the oil industry. "We will give you a lease, you can promote some money to drill on it, and here you have it." And that is what happened. That is the origin of many, many of my friends in Texas who are very wealthy.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You came toTexas——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Came toTexas——
Mr.Jenner. 1944.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was following your divorce from Dorothy Pierson?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Got a loan.
Mr.Jenner. Youentered——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Entered the University of Texas, and School of Geology, and Petroleum Engineering as my minor—major in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering. And with a fantastic effort and speed I succeeded in getting my master's degree in petroleum geology and minor in petroleum engineering in 1945, I think.
Mr.Jenner. You received your master's in 1945, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And in petroleum geology?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; with minor in petroleum engineering.
Mr.Jenner. Did you pursue your studies further?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; well, I wrote a dissertation. I pursue my studies as the time goes by. But that was the end of my education in American schools.
Mr.Jenner. Now, while you were at the University of Texas, did you serve as aninstructor——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In French.
Mr.Jenner. You had no tenure there? You were not a professor?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; an instructor in French, to make some additional money.
Mr.Jenner. When did you complete your work at the University of Texas—all of your studies?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In the fall of 1945.
Mr.Jenner. How long were you at the University of Texas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think about 2 years.
Mr.Jenner. Now, following your obtaining your master's degree at the University of Texas, did you enter into business?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I got a job waiting for me in Venezuela, the Pantepec Oil Co. in Venezuela.
Mr.Jenner. What was the nature of that work?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I worked as a field engineer.
Mr.Jenner. In Venezuela?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Very good salary; pleasant conditions. But eventually fought with the vice president.
Mr.Jenner. What?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Eventually I got into some personal trouble with the vice president, and this time was not kicked out but through mutual agreement it was decided between Warren Smith, who was my president, and a close friend, that I should resign andalso——
Mr.Jenner. When did you leave that position?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Some time in 1946.
Mr.Jenner. I interrupted you. You were going to add something.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Some time in 1946. And also I wanted to come back to the States to renew my citizenship paper application, because I would lose my citizenship papers by staying in Venezuela too long, you see.
It was an American company all right, but I think it was incorporated in Venezuela.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have to have a passport to get to that position in Venezuela?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; well, I think I still have my Polish passport. But I had a reentry permit to the States.
Mr.Jenner. So you returned to the United States in 1946?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then what did you do?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I arrived back through New York, but stayed a very short time, and went to Texas again.
Mr.Jenner. What town?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. To Houston. To look for a job. I did not want to be in a tropical part of the United States, in a hot part. I was trying to find a job somewhere in the northern part of the United States. And then I heard that there is a job available as an assistant to the chairman of the Rangely Field Engineering Committee.
Mr.Jenner. At Rangely, Colo.?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what was the field engineer's name? He is now dead, is he not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Joe Zorichak.
Mr.Jenner. There was an assistant. What was his name? There were two of you assisting the chairman?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember the other assistant's name. I was the only one in the office. Later on—we were part of the group of all the oil companies operating there. But we were the only ones actually working for the committee. I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. I will find it here in a moment.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You see, this committee was a consulting organization set up by, I think, 8 or 10 oil companies operating in Rangely Field, which is the largest field in Colorado, in the Rocky Mountains. It still is.
Mr.Jenner. Does the name James Gibson sound familiar to you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; Gibson—James Gibson; yes. But he was not in our outfit. He was an engineer for Standard Oil of California. But he worked very close to us. In other words, he was an employee of the Standard Oil of California.
Mr.Jenner. Does the name J. M. Bunce sound familiar to you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Who is he?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He was a representative of a pumping outfit from California who sold oil well pumps.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this Rangely Engineering Committee was formed by the various oil companies?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And they were operating in the Rangely, Colo., oil field, is that correct?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And for the purpose of compiling statistics and engineering data for the entire field?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No, yes; this and also to allocate production to various wells in the field, because we didn't have any regulatory body in Colorado at the time. We actually applied a certain formula to each well to see how much each well would be allowed to produce. This was our main job, you know.
Then, of course, our job was to coordinate the technical advances in that field and promote the new methods of drilling producing, to cut down expenses in the field. Among other things, we introduced diamond drilling there, drilling with diamond bits, which eventually became very, very successful.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this was what—1947?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 1946, 1947. I stayed there, I think, about 3½ years, something like that. 3 years, maybe.
Mr.Jenner. Now, at this time you met and married your second wife, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Phyllis Washington?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, tell us about that a little bit.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I went on a vacation to New York, met a very pretty girl, and she was willing to follow me in the wilderness of Colorado, which she did. She was young and a little bit wild. But very, very attractive and adventurous. And she came with me to Colorado—without being married.
Her father was with the State Department, Walter Washington.
But I didn't know him.
Mr.Jenner. She was an adopted child?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Her name originally was Wasserman?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; something like that. And she was a beautiful girl who decided to come to Colorado with me. She stayed with me, we fell in love. She created a terrible confusion in Colorado. Imagine an international beauty with bikinis. I don't know if it is for the record. With bikinis, walking around the oil fields. But she was a wonderful girl, wonderful girl. She gave up the possibility of going to Spain, where her father was appointed charge d' affaires at the time. She decided she would rather stay with me in Colorado in the wilderness.
And I will tell you, that was a terrible place. That was the last boomtownin America. Rangely, the last boomtown in the United States. We lived in shacks, we lived in 40-degree below zero temperature, mud. It is the roughest place you ever saw in your life.
Mr.Jenner. You eventually tired of Rangely, Colo., and moved over to Aspen, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I didn't move to Aspen. I just had a little cabin in Aspen. I had a cabin in Aspen, and would go there on weekends. But then I became chairman.
Joe Zorichak resigned his position and moved to Dallas as assistant president of the American Petroleum Institute, assistant to the president of the API. And I was appointed to replace him.
Mr.Jenner. Was it about this time that you took residence in Aspen?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, no; about that time. I would say—I didn't take residence. I just had a cabin in Aspen.
But I commuted between Rangely and Aspen.
Mr.Jenner. That is quite a commutation. It is 165 miles, isn't it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Nothing for the oil field.
Mr.Jenner. But it takes a long time to get 165 miles.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 3 hours. But naturally I would go there on the weekend and come back. Probably they accuse me of spending all my time in Aspen. But, anyway, what finally happened is, good or bad, we decided to sever connections with the Rangely Engineering Committee. They decided to stop completely the Rangely Engineering Committee.
Mr.Jenner. You had some difficulties with them before they decided to break it up, didn't you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember too much of a difficulty.
Mr.Jenner. Was there something about your spending too much time over at Aspen, and notbeing——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, they never told me that. But possibly.
Mr.Jenner. The severance of your relationship was mutual?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I think so. I don't think—you may call it I was fired, but I don't think so. As far as I remember, we just got together with the manager of Texaco in Denver and he told me, "George, we are just going to stop the operation at Rangely Field of the Engineering Committee."
I was the only one left, you see. So I said fine, stop it.
Mr.Jenner. And this was about when?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I forgot to tell you. Since you are interested in my character—is that it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, of course.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. At Rangely. Colo., it stopped being an operating oil field, and it became a statistical job. When I moved there first it was the greatest boomtown and the greatest drilling place in the United States. We had 30 rigs going. It was very interesting.
Every day we had new problems. It was a very active life. Then at the end of my stay there was no work practically except to compile the statistical report. So naturally I started going to Aspen more often. I don't think I ever had any complaint against me.
Mr.Jenner. You were interested a great deal initially when the field was being developed.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. When it degenerated, if I may use that term, into a statistical assembly, you lose interest, spent more time over at Aspen, and there were some disagreements about that, a difference of opinion, and your employers questioned it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any problem about your savoir-faire, for example, attitude with respect to keeping expenses?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Maybe so. But you know, our salary was very small there, and so we had to show certain expenses. They never questioned me. But possibly they considered my living expenses were too high. But I was the only one to do the job, instead of two. I kept the budget, more or less, at the same level, maybe lower.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you terminated your employment in January 1949, did you not?