Mr.Jenner. You said your son, Sergei, had died in 1960.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, in August 1960.
Mr.Jenner. You are sure of that—rather than 1961?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 1960—I am pretty sure.
Mr.Jenner. Well, what I have might be a misprint.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. My wife will tell you. I am not very good at dates.
But I think it is 1960.
Mr.Jenner. You are very good on names, though.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I remember names. Dates I am very poor at. That death, you know, put me in such a terrible condition of despair, that I decided, and I asked my wife to go with me on a trip throughout all of Mexico and Central America, to get away from everything, and to do some hard physical exercise. At the same time I thought I would review the geology of Mexico and Guatemala. And it was an old dream of mine to make a trip like that, but not in such rough conditions as we did it.
Mr.Jenner. I am going to get into that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. If you are interested, go ahead.
Mr.Jenner. I am just trying to recall where we were when I interrupted myself.
At this point, tell me your political philosophies.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. My political philosophy is live and let live. I voted Republican, but—I am just not interested in politics.
Mr.Jenner. I am not thinking of politics in that sense, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I am thinking in politics with a capital P.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I think I am a 100 percent democrat, because I believe in freedom.
Mr.Jenner. Are you talking about individual freedom now?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Individual freedom. And I believe in freedom of expressing myself when I feel like it. I believe in freedom of criticizing something which I think is not democratic.
Mr.Jenner. What is your attitude towards communism?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Towards communism, I wouldn't like to live in a Communist regime, I am not a Communist, never have been one. But if somebody likes it, let them have it. And I get along very well with fellow workers who are Communists. For instance, in Yugoslavia, I got along very well with them. Of course, we didn't discuss politics very much out there. On the contrary, you have to stay away from that subject. But I consider the other person's point of view.
If somebody is a Communist, let them be a Communist. That is his business.
Mr.Jenner. Haveyou——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not try to propagandize him, and I see some good characteristics in communism.
Mr.Jenner. There are some indications that you have expressed that view from time to time during your lifetime while you are in this country, that there are some good qualities in communism.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, there we mean—or what do you mean? What is your concept of communism?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am looking at communism more or less more from the economic point of view. I think it is a system that can work and works, and possibly for a very poor man, and a very undeveloped nation it may be a solution.
Mr.Jenner. A temporary one?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A temporary one, yes—which eventually, and I believe in evolution, and I have seen through my life that communism in certain places has developed into a livable type of an economy, a way of life.
Now, I repeat, again, that I would not like to live there. Otherwise, I would be there. Because I am too independent in my thinking, and I like business to be free.But——
Mr.Jenner. You like individual freedom and free enterprise?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Which you find in the United States?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And while you can see some benefits in communism as to persons of limited means, and poor countries, for initial development, you think that for a higher level of economic or cultural development communism is not good?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Is that about it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. I don't want to put words in your mouth.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Exactly.
Now, I am very much influenced by a book called "Poor Countries and Rich Countries," by the editor of the Economist in London, which expresses my ideas on economics of the world as it is today.
It is a book which says that—which is available any place here—which says that the world today is divided into poor countries and rich countries, and that the question of communism and socialism is for ignoramuses. That freedom can exist in both types of economies—could exist eventually.
But the main problem of countries today is the richness and the poorness. Now, the rich countries are all of Western Europe, the United States, Canada, all of the satellite countries of Soviet Russia, Soviet Russia, Australia, and so on. Those are the countries which are producing more than they can eat—you see what I mean? And they develop the tools to produce industrial goods.
While the other countries, the rest of the world, is falling down in the morass of poverty, and becomes poorer and poorer as time goes on. You see what I mean?
Right now, I am living in one of those countries temporarily, Haiti, which is in terrible economic condition because people eat more than they can produce. Now, what can save those countries?
Either a tremendous injection of money from the capitalist countries, or a Communist regime, or a Socialist regime. What else can they do? So that is something to think about and worthwhile reading.
Mr.Jenner. But, on the other hand, as far as your political philosophy is concerned, the thing that stands major with you is individual freedom?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Naturally, you can see from all my life that I believe in individual freedom, and I could not live without it.
Mr.Jenner. Sometimes to excess.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. To excess; yes. The big discussions I had in Yugoslavia was always about the freedoms. And I remember that I was attacked one day by a group of Communists in Yugoslavia about Governor Faubus, in Arkansas—saying "What happens there? Is that an example of democracy in Arkansas?" And I told them, yes, it is an example of democracy. I told them that you can imagine in your own country that the Governor would object to the order from the President, and the President had to send troops to make the Governor obey. And that made an impression on them. A few examples like that.
Mr.Jenner. When you were in Yugoslavia, then, you did have debates with the Communists?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Occasionally—after a few drinks, you can talk to them. But they were engineers and geologists—they were not people active politically—they were not big shots.
With the big shots you cannot discuss it. But with smaller people, you can discuss.
Mr.Jenner. Are you interested in debate?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very much so; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are you inclined in order to facilitate debate to take any side of an argument as against somebody who seeks tosupport——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is an unfortunate characteristic I have; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that leads you at times to not necessarily speak in favor of, but to take the opposite view of somebody with respect to communism?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; sometimes it annoys me to have somebody who does not know anything about conditions anywhere else in the world attackwhile he is himself actually a Communist. You see what I mean? A Communist to me, in a bad sense, is somebody who does not believe in free discussion. So it annoys me that somebody Bircher will tell me, "George, we are for freedom here." I said, "Just the opposite, you are not for freedom."
Mr.Jenner. That is, you have taken the position that the Bircherites are not for freedom?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't like that movement personally. I dislike it very much. I have run into trouble lately in Texas before I left with some of my clients who were very much inclined in that direction.
For instance, they object to the United Nations. They put words in my mouth. I remember one day they said, "George, would you believe in abolition of the Army in the United States and creating an international force?"
I said, "No."
He said, "Well, that is what the United Nations stands for."
Mr.Jenner.Well——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I get sometimes into heated discussions and sometimes I say things which maybe you don't think. But I may have insulted some other people's feeling, because I don't have a hatred against anybody. I don't hate communism—hell, let them live.
Mr.Jenner. You don't hate it for somebody else, but you don't want it yourself?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't want it myself; no.
Mr.Jenner. Your whole stay in Yugoslavia, however, was in connection with the International Cooperation Administration?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I am glad that you reminded me of that. I developed an idea, being in Yugoslavia, of forming a joint venture to use Yugoslav workers and American equipment.
Mr.Jenner. What workers?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yugoslav workers, who are very good and very inexpensive, to do some drilling in Arabic countries, and using American equipment. One of my clients is John Mecom in Houston, who, among other things, controls Cogwell Oil Well Equipment Co. in Wichita, Kans. And he has been having a hard time selling his equipment lately. So one day we were discussing in Houston what could we do to promote the use of his equipment. And we came to a conclusion that it might be a good idea to form a joint venture, American-Yugoslav joint venture, using cheap Yugoslav labor, and very good labor, to drill in Arabic countries, because there is a great future of doing this, you see.
And John Mecom sent me to Yugoslavia in 1958 to look at the possibility of forming such a venture.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. Was this the same year you were in Yugoslavia for theInternational——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; the next year. This was in 1958.
Mr.Jenner. Were you then married?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You had married your present wife?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I think so. I hope I am right on my dates. Yes—I think we were married then. Anyway, I went by myself to Yugoslavia.
Mr.Jenner. I think you married your wife, Jeanne in 1959, did you not, in the summer?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You are probably right. Maybe I was not married at that time. Now, don't take those dates 100-percent sure. I can correct them later on when I look at the papers. My mind was so busy with Oswald that I don't keep my mind on the dates of marriage.
Mr.Jenner. I haven't reached Oswald yet.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I know. It will be a long discussion. I think I expressed my point of view pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. I do want you to get into this 1958 Yugoslav venture.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us more about it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. All right.
John Mecom said, "George, you go to Yugoslavia and fix a contract for meto use the American equipment in conjunction with Yugoslav labor, and possibly use some Yugoslav engineers, to drill in Arabic countries—especially in Egypt." This is a little bit beside the point. But Marshal Tito is very close to Nasser, and it is very easy to send Yugoslav workers to Arabic countries today, and they actually do it all the time. They send the workers there, they do some jobs there. And they use German equipment, and sometimes Italian equipment. So why not use American equipment?
I heard about the very big deal in Egypt that could be gotten with that type of combination. However, before going to Yugoslavia I went to see the ex-head of ICA here in Washington. He was Ambassador in Yugoslavia when I was there. Riddleburger. And I told him about this project. And I asked him, "Do you think it will be workable? Will it be acceptable in Washington?"
And he said, "I think that sounds like a good idea."
It is nothing terrible to form a joint American-Yugoslavian venture—form a corporation.
I went to Yugoslavia and did get a contract of that type, a contract in the form of an agreement to be signed later on, just a project.
I came back to Texas, discussed it with Mr. Mecom, and he said, "George, I have changed my mind. I don't think I would like to do business with those damned Communists."
So the project fell through. And eventually quite a few corporations of that type were formed, between the French and the Yugoslavs, Germany and Yugoslavs, and Italians and Yugoslavs.
Mr.Jenner. You were in Ghana in 1957, was it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think later than that. I think 1960, probably, or 1959.
Mr.Jenner. What led you to go to Ghana?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have clients in New York by the name of Lehman. The first name is Rafael Lehman, who owns the Lehman Trading Corp. I have done some work for him in Texas. A wealthy man of American and Swedish origin, who owns, among other things, stamp concessions all over Africa. They have rights to issue stamps for the Government. And this is one of those ventures that are very profitable, because they practically give the stamps gratis to the Government, and sell the stamps to the philatelic agents. And he has, I think, about 11 African countries under contract to produce stamps for them. And one of them is Ghana.
And while there—he travels around Africa all the time—he found out that there were some oil seeps in the northern part of Ghana, indications of oil. And he asked me to go there and investigate. And eventually we took a concession in the northern part of Ghana. We still are supposed to have it, this concession.
Mr.Jenner. Was it published when you went to Ghana that you were a philatelist?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. When we arrived in Ghana?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Sure.
Mr.Jenner. Explain that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That was a trick, because I was representing the philatelic agency, Lehman, but we did not want to let it be known to Shell Oil Co. that I was a consulting geologist.
Mr.Jenner. Don't you think Shell Oil Co. would know that George De Mohrenschildt was an oil geologist?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, we didn't want it to be known, anyway, because I even didn't go through—I didn't spend any time in Accra. I went right away to the northern provinces. How did you know that I went as a philatelist? You have to say that sometimes in the oil business you use certain tricks. But that was intentional on the part of Mr. Lehman, because Shell Oil Co. is supposed to have the real entry to all those countries, as far as concessions go.
Mr.Jenner. Did this venture of yours in behalf of Lehman Trading Corp. have anything—was that political in any nature, and I say political with a capital P.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; of course they have to be friendly with Nkrumah,because they produce stamps for him. But that is the only affiliation they have with him.
Mr.Jenner. So this venture in Ghana had no political aspects whatsoever?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. It was entirely and exclusively business, as you have explained?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A hundred percent business.
Mr.Jenner. Except that you were working for the International Cooperation Administration when you were in Yugoslavia first, that had no political, capital P, implications whatsoever?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; it was purely business.
Mr.Jenner. And your second venture in Yugoslavia for the Cardwell Tool Corp., that was strictly business?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. No politics involved?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever been in any respect whatsoever an agent?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never have.
Mr.Jenner.Representing——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never, never.
Mr.Jenner. Any government?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You can repeat it three times.
Mr.Jenner. Any government?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No. I could take what you call the fifth amendment, but, frankly, I don't need to.
Mr.Jenner. I should say to you, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, that any time you think that your privacy is being unduly penetrated, or that you feel that your constitutional rights might be invaded, or you feel uncomfortable, you are free to express yourself.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You are more than welcome. I have never been an agent of any government, never been in the pay of any government, except the American Government, the ICA. And except being in the Polish Army—$5 a month.
Well, maybe I made a mistake. Maybe I am working for the Haitian Government now. It is a contract. But it has no political affiliations.
Mr.Jenner. Subject to that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Again, no political angle to it.
Mr.Jenner. What I am driving at—whether you work for a foreign government or not, whether you ever have in your lifetime—have you at any time had any position, which I will call political, in the capital P sense, in which you sought to advance the interests of a movement or a government or even a group against a government?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never have. Never was even a Mason. Never part of any political group.
Mr.Jenner. And any views you have expressed during your rather colorful life have been your personal views?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Personal views; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Not induced or fed or nurtured by any political interests, with a capital P, on behalf of any group?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. Sometimes I criticize things, like in Texas—I criticize the lack of freedoms that the Mexicans have, the discrimination, and things like that. But nobody pays me for that. I say what I think.
Mr.Jenner. Whether they pay you ornot——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have never been a member of any group of any kind. My life was too busy, as you can see, in order to be involved in anything like that.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we covered your two Yugoslav ventures, your Ghanian venture—the time that you had the company when you were a young man in Europe, traveled around Europe.
We covered all your employments in the United States, from the time you came here in May of 1938.
I think we have reached the point of your great venture which you started to tell us about, and I had you hold off—your trip down into Mexico and theCentral American countries—tell us about that in your own words, how it came about, and what you did.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I started explaining that already, that it is not a new idea for me. I said before that 20 years before, Roderick MacArthur and myself set out on a limited trip of this type, when we were both young men in Mexico.
And I have always been interested in Mexico as a very rich country mining wise, and I thought that it would be very interesting and useful for me to take a trip along the old trails of the mining of the Spaniards as they went through Mexico during the days of the Conquistadors.
You see, the Spaniards went to Mexico for the purpose of finding mines, and the routes they made in Mexico and through Central America are all directed toward certainly logical prospects, certain mines. And I started collecting through the years—I started collecting information on routes of the Spaniards in Mexico.
But I never thought I would really be able to do it, until came the time in 1960 when my boy died, and I was in very—practically out of my mind, because this was my only son. And I said to hell with all that—I had some money saved up, and I said I am going to stay away from my work and from the civilized life for 1 year, and I am going to follow the trails of the Spanish Conquistadors, all throughout Central America, and possibly all the way to South America.
And to do it the hardest possible way, because I believe in physical therapy for your mental problems.
And my wife, fortunately, also, loves the outdoors, and agreed with me that that is something we should do.
We gave up our apartment, I gave up my office, and we set out from the ranch on the border of Mexico and the United States.
Mr.Jenner. What ranch?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. This was—that is the ranch which belongs to a friend of ours. It is called the—it is Piedras Negras. It is on the Mexican side of the U.S. border. On the American side you have a little town called Eagle Pass. On the Mexican side you have Piedras Negras.
There we have some very close friends who own a big ranch. Their name is Tito and Conchita Harper. They have—they are half Mexican, half Americans. They live on the ranch nearby, and in Piedras Negras.
By the way, when I was visiting them, at the time I was visiting them, a few months before, we heard about the death of my boy, right in their house. We were sitting in their house when there was the long distance call from Canada that my boy had died. They are very, very close friends. They also advised me that it would be a good thing for me to take a trip like that, knowing my interest in Mexico and my interest in the outdoor life.
And that is what we did. We started off at the first 200 kilometers—Tito took us in a plane to cross the first range, a very difficult range, and the rest of the trip was made on foot, all the way to the Panama Canal.
Mr.Jenner. All the way to where?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The Panama Canal.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me what countries you passed through.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We passed through the whole of Mexico, in the longest trajectory you can have. Then the whole of Guatemala, the whole of San Salvador—El Salvador, rather, Honduras, Nicaragua, Costa Rica, and Panama.
And on the way there we stopped occasionally in towns, received our mail, through the American Embassy and consulates, visited some of the friends we have out there. In other words, we led a life close to nature for a whole year.
Mr.Jenner. Were you in Mexico City during this trip?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; because our route kept us away from Mexico City.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during that trip was Mikoyan in Mexico?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes. That I have to tell this incident; that is interesting. This is completely a different incident.
I went to Mexico City, I guess, with—a year before that, on behalfof——
Mr.Jenner. Just a minute.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. This is another consulting job.
Mr.Jenner. When did you make your walking trip through Mexico?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That was the end of 1960 and 1961—all of 1961.
Mr.Jenner. That took about 8 months?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Almost a year.
Mr.Jenner. So you would return in the late fall of 1961?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 1961.
Mr.Jenner. November, I believe.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember that.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the occasion when Mikoyan was in Mexico was some other occasion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A different occasion; yes.
Mr.Jenner. As long as we have raised it at this point, we might as well complete it. Tell us about that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. About this Mikoyan incident?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I went to Mexico City on behalf of Texas Eastern Corp., which is a gas company in Houston, which has a contract with the Mexican Government for the purchase of gas. In other words, this corporation is buying gas from Mexico at the border.
Mr.Jenner. We talk about gas here—we are talking about natural gas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Natural gas; yes. And this contract was in jeopardy—somebody else wanted to take it. And Texas Eastern, which is the corporation, a very large powerplant corporation which has the Big Inch from Texas to the east—through their vice president, John Jacobs, asked me to go to Mexico, since I am familiar with the country, and try to figure out in which way we can keep that contract. And while in Mexico, we had to entertain all the officials of the Mexican Government.
Mr.Jenner. You say "we."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. My wife went with me.
Mr.Jenner. Your present wife?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When did this take place?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It was—I think it was in 1959. I cannot swear you about the dates. But about 1959. Or early in 1960—one or the other. I went to Mexico on other jobs before, many times. But this particular job, since you are interested in the Mikoyan deal, which you call it, was thisparticular——
Mr.Jenner. Did I say deal or incident? I think I said incident.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Incident. Anyway, one of our friends in Mexico is the pilot of the president—the personal pilot of the President Mateos of Mexico. He also took the Russian group, the Russian engineers, with Mikoyan, on the tour of Mexico, at the same time I was there.
By the way, our proposition of the Texas Eastern was to provide some financing for Pemex in exchange for this contract—which is the Mexican Oil Co. And the Russians were offering the same thing to the Mexicans.
Mr.Jenner. So you were then really competing with the Russians?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Competing with the Russians. And through my contacts with this pilot, and with the Mexican officials, I knew exactly what the Russians were offering. We did not make any particularly big fight about it, but we knew what they were offering, and we knew what we could offer for our contract. It was one of the most interesting jobs I ever had.
And then one day, Mikoyan was with that group—the rest of them were technicians. One day Mikoyan was leaving. I remember we had dinner the night before with this pilot of the president. And he said, "George, why don't you come with me to meet Mikoyan tomorrow at the airport?"
I said, "By God, that sounds like an interesting idea. I would like to meet the character."
He had such a publicity of being an excellent businessman, I wanted to learn something from him.
So I said, "All right, I will go with you."
And my wife said, "George, you better not go, because your people at Texas Eastern will look at it—they may look at it in a very peculiar manner, if youappear with Mikoyan"—and the Texas Eastern people—they are very conservative Texas people—if I appear in public with Mikoyan, I will not get any jobs from them.
Mr.Jenner. Particularly having in mind your Russian background?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; particularly my Russian background. So she says, "I better go instead of you."
Mr.Jenner. Your wife?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; so the next morning she went with the Mexican major, the pilot of the president—he still is a pilot for the president today, and he is married to an American—he is not a Communist, believe me. And he and Jeanne went together to the airport.
It was full of security officers—the Russian security officers and the Mexican officers. And the Mexican pilot let her go through all that mess.
Here was the Russian plane, and Mikoyan was making a speech. After that, the pilot took Jeanne, for the hell of it, and said, "I will introduce you to Mikoyan."
And Jeanne went to him and said in perfect Russian, "How are you, Comrade Mikoyan? Nice to know you." And he almost collapsed, because it was such a surprise for him that somebody went through all that security officers without being detected—because she was right there in that group. So she said—he asked her where she is from, and she says, "I am from Texas."
"What do you mean from Texas?"
She said, "Yes, I am from Texas." She said, "Why don't you come and visit us in Texas and I will give you a Russian dinner."
And Mikoyan said, "Thank you very much, some day I will come and see you."
So here was the Mikoyan incident.
Mr.Jenner. That is all of the circumstances of the so-called Mikoyan incident?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. It was pure happenstance and a bit of fun?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you, in fact, declined the same invitation?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I declined to go—purely for business reasons—because I didn't want my clients to think that I was buddy buddy with Mikoyan.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this trip of yours down through Mexico, and the Central American countries—wasn't that about the time of the Bay of Pigs invasion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It was indeed; yes. And we didn't know anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We didn't know anything about it.
Mr.Jenner. Your trip had nothing whatsoever to do with that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Nothing to do with it—except I remember we arrived in Guatemala City, and by God you know we walked on the street, we were trying to get some visas to get to the next country—you have to get visas and permits to carry guns. We had to carry a revolver with us to protect us, because we were going constantly through a jungle. We did not follow any roads. We were all the time following the trails.
Mr.Jenner. The old Conquistador trails?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; we carried two revolvers and a shotgun with us, And to be able to cross the border you had to get permit each time. That took us in Guatemala City quite some time. We were walking around the town trying to get a permit to Nicaragua, and to San Salvador, and to Honduras. And as we were walking on the street we saw a lot of white boys, dressed in civilian, but they looked like military men to me.
And I said to Jeanne, "By God, they look like American boys."
The consulate—we received our mail through the American consulate.
Mr.Jenner. In Guatemala City?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Everywhere—Guatemala City, San Salvador—not Honduras, but in San Jose—everywhere we received our mail through the consulate or the Embassy. And I was asking the help of the consul there—could they help me to get a permit to go to Honduras and carry my shotgun there.
He said, "I am too busy today, I cannot do anything for you."
And then we left Guatemala City—2 days later—we read the paper on the road about the Bay of Pigs invasion. That is all we knew about it.
Mr.Jenner. What did you do on your trip through Mexico and the Central American countries?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, we took—I took—we walked and found our way by the map, spoke to the people, collected samples.
Mr.Jenner. Samples of what?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Samples of rocks, of various rocks that seemed tohave——
Mr.Jenner. How did you carry it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We sent them back—we carried—all the stuff we carried on the back of a mule. We had a big mule that could carry 150 pounds. This whole thing is recorded in a book I have written. It is a manuscript I have—600 pages—day for day description of our adventures. If you are interested, I will give it to you. The publishers don't seem to be interested. It is now in the hands of a publisher in France, and they may publish it.
Mr.Jenner. I had heard about that. I heard if it had a little more color it might be salable.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It is a little bit too dry. It is day by day—that is what I could do. Someday when I have more time, I will make it a little bit more colorful. But as it is now, it is a diary of our trip, day by day.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You see, that took quite some time each day to record what I saw, to record the geology, to record the observations I had of each place. Because we went to places that no white man has ever been in before, in many places. And certainly no geologist had ever visited before. We had some fascinating adventures. We were attacked many times. We were robbed. But we always came out all right.
Mr.Jenner. Did you make movies of that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We have a movie made of it, which I have here with me, because I would like to show it—I showed it to many friends in Dallas and in New York. It is an 8 millimeter movie which has about 1,200 feet—three big reels. This movie seemed to be quite interesting to people who like the outdoors. It gives you a complete sequence of our trip.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get pretty native in the course of that trip?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, we became completely native. We ate only what the natives ate. We drank what they drank. And we returned to civilization only once in awhile when we were in towns, in the big cities. Otherwise, we lived exactly like the natives. And that is how we were able to make a trip like that. We looked like Indians. They thought that we were Indians from somewhere. We were poorly dressed. All our cameras and equipment was covered by a piece of old rag, on top of that mule. In other words, we did not want to show to the people that we had money with us—we did carry money with us.
Mr.Jenner. Where did that trip end?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The trip ended exactly at the Panama Canal. At the end of the trip, we went to say hello to Mr. Farland, the U.S. Ambassador there. And we also met Mr. Telles, our Ambassador in Costa Rica. They know all about our trip. And there were many articles written about our trip in the local papers.
Mr.Jenner. You mean local in Dallas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Local in Dallas—and local papers in Central America, small local papers. It was a purely geological trip, plus a desire to be away from civilization for a while because of the death of my son. That, I think, is sufficient reason.
Mr.Jenner. It has no political implications whatsoever?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No political implications. I am not interested at all in politics. Naturally, when I was going there I could not help seeing what was going on. The dictatorship in Honduras, the civil war in Panama, the guerilla fights. But it is all recorded in my book.
But I had nothing to do with it.
Mr.Jenner. You went from Panama to where?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We just arrived from the border of Texas to Panama. We performed one big chunk of—we covered a big chunk of territory which is about 5,000 miles, on foot. And, believe me, not many people can do it, you know.
Mr.Jenner. When you completed thattrip——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. When we completed this trip, we were very tired, and we decided to go and take a rest in Haiti.
Mr.Jenner. Why did you select Haiti?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, as I said before, I had been there many times as a tourist. I have a very close friend of my father's who lived in Haiti. I speak French. And I like the country. I said we are going to visit this old man, a friend of my father's.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Breitman; Michael Breitman. He used to be a very wealthy man in Russia—also involved in the oil industry in Russia, and in Czarist Russia—a friend of my father's. And I discovered that he lived in Haiti sometime in 1946 and 1947 when I went as a tourist there. And we became very close. He considered me almost like his son.
We went to visit him—I was worried that he might die, and he died very soon after our trip. And we stayed there for 2 months, relaxing, taking it easy. And I started preparing my contract with the Haitian Government at the same time.
Mr.Jenner.Now——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Already then.
Mr.Jenner. Then you already had in mind the venture you are now—in which you are now engaged?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I already started then, you see. I made the first step. I received a letter—I still have it—the letter from the Minister of Finance—that they are interested in my project, which the project is to review all the mining resources of Haiti. They don't have anybody to do that. And we kept on working on it, working and working and working, corresponding back and forth, until finally there was the contract in March 1963. In other words, it took me 2 years to get that contract.
Mr.Jenner. Here, again, this is all business?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Purely business.
Mr.Jenner. No political or like considerations?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. You have never been a member of any subversive group?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; never have.
Mr.Jenner. Of what groups have you been a member? And of what groups are you a member?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am not a member of any group. Maybe that is something against me, because I am not a member of any group. I am not a member—I am not interested. I am too busy.
Mr.Jenner. You are a member of the Petroleum Club in Dallas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. If you call that a group; yes.
Mr.Jenner. It is a group.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me all the societies or groups, whether you call them political or otherwise, of which you have been a member.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. None political. You call the Dallas Petroleum Club political?
Mr.Jenner. No.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I am a member of the Dallas Petroleum Club. I used to be a member of the Abilene Country Club. I used to be, because I don't live there any more.
I am a member of American Association of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the American Association of Mining Engineers. I think my dues are due. Maybe they expelled me by now.
I am a member of the Dallas Society of Petroleum Geologists.
I am a member of the Abilene Society of Petroleum Geologists. I am a registered petroleum engineer in Colorado. That is about it.
Purely professional organizations.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever participated in the affairs of—whether you have been a member of—irrespective of whether you have been a member of, I should say—any political action group, even such things as the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; never even knew that it existed. I never even knew it existed.
You can see very clearly, I did not have time to do that. I am not interested in it. I told you before, I am not interested in politics, except when I want to improve something in our way of life.
Mr.Jenner. In our own way.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. In our own way of life, then I start criticizing. But I certainly am not interested in somebody's political organization, because I am sufficiently independent to do it by myself.
Mr.Jenner. And even when you become interested, as you suggest, in improvement or change, that has been largely an individual activity on your part?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. Occasionally I write letters to Congressmen—if you call that political action. I do. I write, I bitch very often. I write letters to the Congressmen and complain. I know the Congressman from Texas here, and I know—I write letters to people in Washington when I want to have something done about something.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, you spent 2 months in Haiti.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you returned to the United States.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Returned to the United States.
Mr.Jenner. Where did you land?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We landed in—we came by Lykes—Lykes Line ship directly from Haiti to Louisiana, I think Port Arthur, La.
Mr.Jenner. Lake Charles?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Lake Charles.
And the friends met us there and drove us back to Houston and then to Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Who were your friends that met you there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The friends there were two employees of Kerr-McGee Oil Co., by the name of George Kitchel, vice president, and Jim Savage, engineer.
Mr.Jenner. You had known Jim Savage for some time?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you had known Kitchel for some time?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. We are now into 1962, are we?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In the early part of the year?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you returned to Dallas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We returned to Dallas. We took another apartment in the same place—very close to the same neighborhood we used to live—6628 Dickens Avenue. I felt an urge to write a report on our trip. I sat down and worked like hell writing this report. My wife started working—because we were getting short of money. We spent all the money on our trip—including this Haiti stay. And at the same time I started pursuing my profession and making oil deals like we do, doing consulting work, in Dallas.
Now, I should repeat again—I am glad you reminded me of some of those dates, because you have them written down, and I don't.
So I cannot vouch for some of the dates.
Mr.Jenner. Well, as a matter of fact, I have most of them in my head at the moment.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You have a better memory for dates than I do.
Mr.Jenner. Now we have you in 1962. Your wife went back to workfor——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She had broken her contract with a very large manufacturer. She had a very good contract—to come on this trip with me. She gave up a job of $15,000 or $20,000 a year, to go on this trip with me. And she had a very hard time reestablishing herself in her profession of designer.
So we went through a rather difficult time there for a year, and she startedworking in the millinery department of Sanger-Harris in Dallas. It is a large department store in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this brings us to the summer of 1962.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, in due course you met Marina and Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, before we get to that, what I would like to have you do for me is tell me about what I will describe in my words, and you use your own, the Russian emigre group or community or society in Dallas at or along about that time.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. There I knew them all, because both my wife and I like to speak Russian, and we like Russian cooking, mainly. This is our main interest in Russian society. They are all of the same type—in other words, they are all people who carry memories of Russia with them, and who became, I think, perfect American citizens.
Some of them are a little bit to the left, others are a little bit to the right, but all within the limits of true democracy.
One of them is, I think, leaning towards excessive rightist tendencies.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He is a geologist, for Sun Oil Co. His name is Ilya Mamantov.
I know them all very well. They are very decent people, all of them.
He, I think, is a little bit too much again on this Birch Society group, because he works for a large company.
Mr.Jenner. To refresh your recollection as to some of these people. Voshinin. What is his first name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Igor.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Mamantov's mother-in-law, Gravitis—Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I just met her once or twice—hardly spoken to her.
Mr.Jenner. The Clarks?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I know them very well.
Mr.Jenner. Max Clark?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, Max and his wife, Gali.
Mr.Jenner. Gali is of Russian derivation?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Russian descent, born in France of the upper society in Russia—she was born Princess Sherbatov. They are families better than Cabots and Lodges here in the States.
Mr.Jenner. What about Mr. Clark?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Mr. Clark is a Texan of an excellent background, who is a lawyer, as you know.
Mr.Jenner. A lady by the name of Khrystinik?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That I don't know. I don't know her. Maybe you don't pronounce correctly her name.
Mr.Jenner. That may well be.
Paul Raigorodsky?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He is another Russian who is very successful in business, a Republican, a good friend of mine, I think. For years and years.
Mr.Jenner. Let me see some others that come to my mind.
Mr. De Mohrenschildt, I made a mistake with respect to one name. I said it was Khrystinik. I was in error. It is Lydia Dymitruk.
You are acquainted with her?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very slightly.
Mr.Jenner. What I am directing my attention to now, sir; is people forming part of the Russian, what I call, community in the Dallas, Fort Worth, Irving area.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Ray. Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray, and Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think she is Russian.
Mr.Jenner. Which one?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Either one of them—the one who is in the advertising business.
Mr.Jenner. George Bouhe.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. He is a leader of the community, is he?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. John and Elena Hall?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is their history?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, sheis——
Mr.Jenner. I mean derivation.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He is American.
Mr.Jenner. He is a native American. And sheis——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She is a Russian, I think of Persian origin, or brought up in Persia. I am not so sure where she was born. But she speaks very good Russian. She is I think Greek Orthodox, which means of Russian parentage.
Mr.Jenner. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. The name sounds familiar to me, but I don't think I know it.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Teofil Meller?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Peter Gregory and his son, Paul?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I know only the father, Peter Gregory, not the son.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I know them.
Mr.Jenner. Does my calling your attention to the few people I have named refresh your recollection as to others who are part of the Russian community?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, there are others.
Mr.Jenner. I am thinking primarily of the Russian group who met the Oswalds.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't know who of them might have met the Oswalds.
Mr.Jenner. What about Sam Ballen?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he knows a few Russians. And he met Oswald just once, I guess. I think he is a good friend of Voshinin—of mine, and probably knows the Fords. I don't think he knows the others. Maybe he does. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Having in mind this group ofpeople——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, then the priest must know them all—the Russian priest.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He is an American, but he is a Greek Orthodox priest there.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Father Dimitri.
Mr.Jenner. Father Dimitri—he is from Houston, is he not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No, he is the one who is in charge of the Greek Orthodox Church in Dallas, and he is also a professor at SMU, professor of Spanish at SMU.
Mr.Jenner. In that connection, there aretwo——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I know that he knows Marina.
Mr.Jenner. There are two Greek Orthodox Churches, are there not, or sects or groups, in Dallas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me how that developed.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, it is just some sort of schism in the Greek Orthodox Church. I am not too interested in religion, so I could not tell you how it originated. But anyway, one church seems to be purely Russian, and the other one seems to have a lot of Americans in it. The one that Father Dimitri is the head of—he is an American and quite a large membership of Americans—they have converted. And the services are in English, although the others—some services are in Russian also.
Sometimes he has visiting priests. But I don't know why they are segregated into two groups.
Mr.Jenner. Mr Raigorodsky is interested in the old guard group, let us call it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; probably, that is right.
Mr.Jenner. And also Mr. Bouhe?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but Raigorodsky supports also the other group.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; he does.
Now, are the acquaintances largely formed, when new people come into Dallas, through these church groups?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; most of the time I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. Now, at least during the time—I don't know what your propensities are at the moment, but you were somewhat irreligious when you were in Dallas, were you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I actually contributed to this church, to the formation of that first church, that Raigorodsky was interested in, the old guard church.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And I actually organized even a choir. But then I got less interested in it. I didn't like the priest, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't like Father Dimitri?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; the previous one.
Mr.Jenner. What was his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I forgot his name. He is in South Africa now. It was some time ago. It was 10 years ago maybe. He was sent to South Africa. Let them convert the Negroes there, in South Africa.
Mr.Jenner. It has been said or reported by—from a few sources, during the course of your lifetime that you were an atheist; is that correct?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I am more or less an agnostic. I would not call myself an atheist; an agnostic. I do not believe in organized religion. Sometimes if I see a group like that, like the Russian group there, I wanted to help them a little bit to be together. And it is amusing to meet those people. So I contributed a little money and a little bit of my time for the services—for instance, as I said, to sing in the church. But I do not go for going every Sunday to church, if that is the answer.
Mr.Jenner.Well——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And especially I do not believe in trying to convert people—constantly they push to convert people. But I go occasionally—on some holidays I go to church, to be with them, and to see the group, because I like many of those people.
Mr.Jenner. That attitude on your part, of agnosticism, whatever you have explained it to be, I take it does not arise out of any interest or belief in communism?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Communistsare——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Communism is a religion, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that is what they say, in any event. They seek to stamp out religion as we understand it in Russia, do they not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, I understand that the Greek Orthodox Church is prosperous in Soviet Russia, quite prosperous. Maybe that is the schism that they have in the church, the schism between the two—maybe one of those churches is closer to the Communist Greek Orthodox denomination.
Mr.Jenner. But this is speculation on your part?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is speculation on my part. I don't know for sure.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you are an ebullient person, you like to mix with others?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; not always, you know, because I can stand for a year to be in the jungle.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. But when you are in, let us say, Dallas or other towns, and in your own community, you are an ebullient person, you are gregarious, you like to be with people?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; exactly.
Mr.Jenner. It is suggested by some people you are also unorthodox in your social habits.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; probably. What do they say—what do they mean?
Mr.Jenner. Well, you are prone to be alittle——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Shock people.
Mr.Jenner. Shock people; yes. That is generally so?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And why do you do that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, it is interesting to see people's reaction—if you shock them, it is amusing to get people out of their boredom. Sometimes life is very boring.
Mr.Jenner. And get you out of your boredom, too?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Maybe my boredom also.