Mr.Jenner. And you do, don't you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She dislikes it. I like to, certainly, and I don't mind if people tease me. I never get mad you know. It is perfectly all right if somebody teases me.
Mr.Jenner. Are you a member of a group in Dallas known as the Bohemian Club?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about the Bohemian Club. Did you organize it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Mr. Ballen and I organized it together and the occasion arose one day when Mr. Ballen and I were driving back from a well, an oil well we were driving far away from Dallas. It was a long drive and we were discussing our lives in Dallas and a little bit exchange about the sort of boring people we have around in Dallas you know, nothing but Texans. And then by God, says Ballen, "We should do something about it. We should organize—there are some interesting people in Dallas. We should organize a group for free discussion. And also we should put—we all like to eat well. Let's combine it with good eating." And that is how the idea originated.
Mr.Jenner. And you called it what?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. We called it the Bohemian Club, a little bit based on the Bohemian Club in San Francisco. And we invited—we decided to invite people who are sort of unusual and in different professions, and that no business should be discussed during the meetings, that the member whose turn it is to make a speech should also provide the dinner, and either cook it himself or his wife would cook it or he should invite all of us to a restaurant of his choice. This lasted I guess for a year or 2 years you know. We had quite a few meetings, very interesting, controversial meetings, because the main point was that you had to express yourself freely on the subject which is very important to you. Then followed a discussion of all the other members.
Mr.Jenner. On the subject.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. On the subject.
Mr.Jenner. Was it intended that the discussions be provocative or presented in a provocative fashion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. As much as possible, and we had some real lulus there, some very provocative discussions.
Mr.Jenner. Was there an occasion when you had this club at your home or restaurant that you supplied the meal?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; one day I think I made one particular speech that I made on the subject of Vlacsov's Army which are the White Russians and refugees who decided to fight with the Germans against Soviet Russia. They were helped by General Vlacsov who was a Soviet General, and then later on became Commander, was made prisoner by the Germans and then decided to fight the Communists, because obviously he was dissatisfied with the Stalinist regime, and it was quite a large group. I never met any people of that type, but Mr. Voshinin provided me the material on that subject, and I made this little speech and I think everybody was very satisfied with the speech except Lev Aronson who is a Jewish friend, a Jewish friend of mine who was in the German concentration camp and he obviously had met some of those Vlacsov soldiers, and anyway he criticized me quite a lot on that speech.
Mr.Jenner. Did he criticize you during the course of the meeting?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. During the course of the meal?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you accuse anybody of being a Nazi?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Did he accuse?
Mr.Jenner. Did you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Did I accuse anybody?
Mr.Jenner. In the way of provoking the discussion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Of provoking the discussion? I don't remember that. Possibly I had, but I don't remember that. Actually he accused me more or less of being pro-Nazi by giving that speech you see. He accused me of being, which I am not you know, but that expresses my opinion of the difficulty that sometimes the refugees are in when their opinions, political opinions, differ with their own country you see. Those are the people who arefighting their own country because they were deeply inside anti-communists, you see. I didn't say that I was all for them you see. I just described this as an interesting incident because I just read a book on that subject or something you know, and I thought that it was an interesting incident of the last war that occurred.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see Oswald operate an automobile?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I had the impression that he didn't know how to drive and I was quitesurprised——
Mr.Jenner. What gave you the impression that he didn't know how to drive?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I couldn't swear to that, but I think I asked him "Do you know how to drive an automobile? Why don't you buy yourself an automobile?" I remember saying.
Mr.Jenner. Where would he get the money?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know you can buy a car for $20, or $30, some old wreck, and somebody with any mechanical ability could fix it.
Mr.Jenner. What was his response to that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have the impression that he said that he didn't know how to drive, but I couldn't swear to that. And naturally Marina was needling him all the time to buy an automobile.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, she was?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she was.
Mr.Jenner. You have a definite impression?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A definite impression of that. She was needling him.
Mr.Jenner. Apart from an impression, as a matter of fact you were present and knew she was needling him to purchase an automobile?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I could almost swear to that, but again it is so vague I could not recall the exact words, you see.
Mr.Jenner. But you do have a definite impression of that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, I have a definite impression of that. I might have put it in her mind you know. Either my wife or I might have put it in her mind because it is incomprehensible to live in Texas without an automobile. It is not like New York. They were completely isolated where they were living, you see.
Mr.Jenner. And you were suggesting it.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I might have suggested it.
Mr.Jenner. Because of that.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Or my wife.
Mr.Jenner. What impression, if you have any, do you have with respect to his sexual habits? Did you ever have any thoughts?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As to whether he was a homosexual?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. He was not in your opinion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't think so, I think he was an asexual person, asexual, and as I told you before, Marina was bitterly complaining about her lack of satisfaction. This is really the time that we decided just to drop them you see. One of the reasons you see we decided not to see them again, because we both found it revolting, such a discussion of marital habits in front of relative strangers as we were, see.
Mr.Jenner. And this occurred more than once?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. You see this occurred probably in the first period when we knew Oswald. You know there was a first period when we knew them, until about October. Then we didn't see them any more, and I think it was caused by many factors you know. We just got tired of them. We didn't like them. We did not like this particular remark about sex life, and other things you know. We just were not interested in them, and then the fact that she returned back to Oswald, see what I mean, after we had taken her away from him, that she went back to him that disgusted us.
We told her, "Now we helped you. We are not going to do anything more about you." And we didn't see them in October, November, December, see.
Mr.Jenner. Except for this party?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Except for the party, and then Christmas came andwe thought well, the Oswalds all by themselves you know. It is Christmas time, we should take them out. For that period they were completely out of my mind you see. Then we decided to take them out, and I think it was in January after this party that we took them again to meet Everett Glover.
Mr.Jenner. I will get to that in a moment.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think actually there were two parties that we took them to. One at Ford's and the other at Everett Glover's. No, pardon me, I made a mistake. We took them also, both of them one afternoon, and I think it was still in the first period of us knowing them, to the house of Admiral Bruton who is a friend of ours, and a retired U.S. Admiral who works in Dallas and has; both he and his wife are good friends of ours. And they are very kind people.
Mrs. Bruton loves the children. She is a grandmother, and we told her that here we have that miserable couple with a child, could we bring them to the pool 1 day? And she said "fine, bring them along." And we brought them to the pool, and no sooner the admiral saw Oswald you know, and heard a few words from him, he said "take this guy away from me." This Bruton was quite a hero in the war you know, and he immediately sensed that Oswald was a revolutionary character you see, and no good. He sensed that, being a military man you see. I think he asked him a few questions "is it true that you were in the Marine Corps?" And Oswald made kind of a sour face about the Marine Corps. So it was very short and very unpleasant interview because the admiral left you know, and his wife, being a kind person, stayed there for a while you know, and then we took the Oswalds back again.
Mr.Jenner. You never did use the pool?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They never used the pool because I don't think Oswald liked swimming. And just recently I got a letter from Mrs. Bruton in Paris saying "is that the same man that you brought once to my house?" She has been reading the story of Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. When you went over to pick up the Oswalds to take them to that Christmas party did you enter their home?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It is just vague to me. I don't remember how we got them. Whether I did or my wife did—I do not recall how it was done.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to ask you whether you noticed if they had a Christmas tree or any indication of celebration of Christmas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have some vague recollection of some kind of celebration but I do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion with him as to whether he did or didn't believe in Christmas?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember. I assumed that he did not. Marina was naturally interested in Christmas.
Mr.Jenner. She was?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She was.
Mr.Jenner. Did the Oswalds, either together or separately, come to your home frequently or several times and spend the day with you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I was trying to pin down how many times we saw them in all, and it is very hard you know. I would say between 10 and 12 times, maybe more. It is very hard to say.
Usually they were together.
Mr.Jenner. She come alone?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Sometimes she came alone; yes. I don't recall his coming all by himself. I don't recall any incident.
Mr.Jenner. There was some testimony to the effect—I want you to pause before I ask you another question, exhaust your recollection on this.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions when they came in the morning and stayed all day?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Marina might have stayed all day you see, or 3 or 4 hours you see. My wife will remember, will have a better recollection of that, because I was at that time busy on three projects, and really my mind was on something else, you see.
Mr.Jenner. Having exhausted your recollection, there is testimony to theeffect, about Marina, that "we used to come early in the morning, and leave at night. We would spend the entire day with them. We went by bus."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. By bus? My wife will remember that better. Possibly I was not at home you see. I was running around doing business, my business you know.
Mr.Jenner. You came to their home for short visits?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I came to their home for short visits, and sometimes would find Marina alone, maybe twice, something like that you see, would find Marina alone, and ask her, "How are you getting along? Goodbye."
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever visit them and bring some foodstuffs?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. My wife will remember that better than I do.
Mr.Jenner. Does this refresh your recollection in any degree, testimony that "the De Mohrenschildts visited us, they usually came for short visits. They brought their own favorite vegetables such as cucumbers. George likes cucumbers."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I like cucumbers, and I am sure that my wife will remember that, because it was her idea, not mine. She was in charge of food you know. If they did spend the whole day with us, it is possible it was at the very beginning when my wife took Marina to the doctor, you know, and then brought her back again, something like that. I don't remember seeing them in the house all day long.
Mr.Jenner. But they might have been there all day long when you weren't around.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They might have been, might have been. My wife will remember that, you see.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions when they had meals at your house?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; I think so. I think so. I don't remember the exact occasion but I am sure that we fed them quite often, because they were hungry.
Mr.Jenner. As a matter of fact you went out of your way to see that they were fed?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; I think so. My wife did, not I.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion on your part with Oswald with respect to his family, his mother, his brothers?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this is very interesting. I remember distinctly that Marina especially told me that they had lived with the brother, and that he told them to leave the house. Now we assumed that itwas——
Mr.Jenner. Recapture your recollection a little more about this.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It is something to that effect, you know, and it was a little bit surprising to me, and then after seeing her for a little while, I realized why they did, because she was incredibly lazy you see. She wouldn't help anybody.
Mr.Jenner. Who was incredibly lazy?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Marina, very lazy, wouldn't help anybody with anything. When she stayed for instance with the Mellers, and the baby you see, Mrs. Meller told us that she wouldn't help her at all, you know, around the house.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Would sit there and smoke and do nothing. Now I have a recollection, a vague recollection of Lee telling me that he didn't get along with his mother. Actually it was surprising how little he spoke about his family. It was just something completely that was not discussed you know.
He didn't talk about it. But I have a vague recollection that he disliked his mother. He didn't get along with his mother, and Marina disliked the mother.
Mr.Jenner. Marina disliked the mother also?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Marina disliked the mother also.
Mr.Jenner. You have a definite recollection of that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I have a recollection of some kind, not in any exact words, but that is the impression I had.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion or did you become aware that they had lived also with the mother as well as the brother?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that.
Mr.Jenner. But you have a definite recollection that Marina had met the mother and had a reaction to her?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Oh, that she met the mother, definitely. I assumed that you knew.
Mr.Jenner. And that reaction was an unfavorable one?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Unfavorable reaction, and possibly my wife will remember more than I do.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get any reaction as to how Oswald felt with respect to his brother?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Again a vague idea that he did not get along with his brother.
Mr.Jenner. Did you become aware that he had two brothers?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I didn't even know he had two brothers.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any occasion when it came to your attention that there was any alarm on Marina's part with respect to Lee possibly inflicting some harm on Vice President Nixon, or former Vice President Nixon?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. That doesn't ring a bell at all?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It doesn't ring a bell at all. But what I wanted to underline, that was always amazing to me, that as far as I am concerned he was an admirer of President Kennedy.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to ask you about that.
Tell me the discussions you had in that connection. Did you have some discussions with him?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Just occasional sentences, you know. I think once I mentioned to him that I met Mrs. Kennedy when she was a child you know, she was a very strong-willed child, very intelligent and very attractive child you see, and a very attractive family, and I thought that Kennedy was doing a very good job with regard to the racial problem, you know. We never discussed anything else. And he also agreed with me, "Yes, yes, yes; I think it is an excellent President, young, full of energy, full of good ideas."
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever indicate any resentment of Mr. Kennedy's wealth?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is definitely a point there, you know. He did not indicate, but he hated wealth, period, you see. Lee Oswald hated wealth, and I do not recall the exact words, but this is something that you could feel in him, you see. And since he was very poor, you know, I could see why he did, you see. I even would tell him sometimes, "That is ridiculous. Wealth doesn't make happiness and you can be poor and be happy, you can be wealthy and be very unhappy; it doesn't matter." I met a lot of wealthy people in my life and found that quite a few of them are very unhappy and I have met quite a few poor people and they are very happy. So it is nothing to be jealous of.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss with him Governor Connally?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never discussed it with him.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever express any opinion with respect to Governor Connally?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never had a word about it. You see, I was not familiar with the fact that he did have a dishonorable discharge.
Mr.Jenner. That is another subject.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You were not familiar with that at all? It was never discussed?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It was only in the papers that I read after the assassination that I read in the papers that he had a dishonorable discharge. I assumed that he had an honorable discharge. I assumed that.
Mr.Jenner. There was never any discussion in the Russian colony on the subject that he had not had an honorable discharge?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall that. I do not recall. But I was again probing in my mind whether I heard anything about this dishonorable discharge or not.
Mr.Jenner. As you are sitting there, you are probing your mind?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, my mind, thinking about it, now you know, and it is impossible to say because I read in the paper that he had a dishonorable discharge, after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. And you don't want to rationalize?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not want to.
Mr.Jenner. Now let us turn to the party at the Glovers.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You were acquainted with Mr. Glover, were you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Everett Glover?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Everett Glover.
Mr.Jenner. Who is Everett Glover?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Everett Glover is a chemist at Magnolia Laboratories, Standard Oil of New York Research Laboratories.
Mr.Jenner. Now, had Everett Glover met the Oswalds prior to this party at his home?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He might have, I don't recall. He might have met them, either Marina or both of them, for a short time.
Mr.Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection on that subject?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. My wife may remember this more distinctly.
Mr.Jenner. But have you exhausted your recollection?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Does this serve to refresh your recollection?
Mr. Glover has stated that he had met Marina previously.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. At your home several times?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It could be; yes.
Mr.Jenner. It could be?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It could be; yes.
Mr.Jenner. And had been invited to your home several times because she was a Russian-speaking person who was having marital difficulties with Lee Oswald?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, very possible. Now I recall even this, since you mention this. I suggested that they might live with Everett Glover, this couple.
Mr.Jenner. You made a suggestion?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. To whom?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. To Glover. "You have an empty house. Why don't you let them live with you and pay you so much per month?" And I think he declined that.
Mr.Jenner. He did organize this party, however?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Who? Everett?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now he says it was on February 23,19——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. 1963.
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is about it.
Mr.Jenner. Does that refresh your recollection?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I was placing it around January or February; at that time.
Mr.Jenner. Did you attend that party?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; as far as I remember, I did.
Mr.Jenner. And Jeanne as well?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Who else was there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. At this party was a lot of friends of Everett Glover's whose names I do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes; definitely. We called him Messer Schmidt. He is a German; very intelligent, young Ph. D. in sociology who also works at the same laboratory as Everett Glover.
Mr.Jenner. Magnolia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Magnolia Laboratory.
Mr.Jenner. And was living with Glover at that time?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Was living with Glover at the time, I think.
Mr.Jenner. He was present?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. He is a bachelor?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A bachelor.
Mr.Jenner. And who else?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think we invited our neighbors, Mrs. Fox who lived right next door to us, to that party.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Fox?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What is her first name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Mary Fox.
Mr.Jenner. What is her husband's name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She is a widow, I think, but it might have been a different party, but I have the impression that she was there.
Mr.Jenner. Anybody else?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think we invited our landlord also.
Mr.Jenner. Who is your landlord?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I forgot his name. Anyway he is my landlord. I forgot his name. My wife has a better memory of names.
Mr.Jenner. Anybody else that you recall?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And Ruth Paine.
Mr.Jenner. Ruth Paine?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Had you ever met Ruth Paine before?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I think that was the first time we met Ruth Paine.
Mr.Jenner. You have never been in any singing groups with her?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Of which she was a member?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No, no.
Mr.Jenner. You did engage in some singing groups, did you not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; but a different type of singing. I was engaged only in the church choir singing and I think she engaged in some sort of classical music singing.
Mr.Jenner. Madrigal?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Jenner. Madrigal?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Madrigal; that is right. There is a group in Dallas to which Everett Glover belongs, you know, who I think spent some time singing in the madrigal.
Mr.Jenner. Have you exhausted your recollection now as to everybody who was present?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. There were quite a lot of people there, but if you mention the names I will say yes or no.
Mr.Jenner. I want you to exhaust your recollection first.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am not so sure. I think my daughter was there.
Mr.Jenner. Alex?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Alex. I don't remember if Gary was there.
Mr.Jenner. That is her husband?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Her husband.
You see, we showed our movie quite a few times.
Mr.Jenner. Did you show it that night?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think we showed the movie that night.
Mr.Jenner. Were Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen present?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That name is familiar to me but I couldn't identify them.
Mr.Jenner. Were these people interested in meeting the Oswalds?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think Oswald mentioned to me—Glover mentioned to me that Mrs. Paine was a student of the Russian language, that she would like to meet somebody with whom she could practice. That is my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Did the people engage in conversation with both of the Oswalds?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They were surrounded by the whole group. I do not recall what happened, because I was busy making the description of our trip while the movie was being shown. That movie, by the way, did not interest Oswald at all. He was not interested.
Mr.Jenner. The Mexican trip movie?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; he was not interested. Neither Marina nor Oswald were interested.
Mr.Jenner. Neither one?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. Why was that, do you think?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. They were not the outdoor-type people who would appreciate that sort of thing, not sufficiently outdoor-type people, not sufficiently sophisticated to appreciate that sort of a thing. At least that was my impression.
Mr.Jenner. Did any of these people inquire of Oswald as to his life in Russia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think so. I think after the movie there was quite an animated discussion there asking many questions and many answering. He was there very happy you see, because he loved to be asked questions. He loved to be the center of attention, and he definitely was the center of attention that night.
Mr.Jenner. That night. What about Marina?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, you know that she couldn't speak English.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. There were people there who could speak Russian, weren't there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think she was talking mainly to Mrs. Paine, and I noticed immediately that there was another nice relationship developed there between Mrs. Paine and Marina.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have some acquaintance with Mrs. Paine afterward; you and Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Never saw them again. Never saw them again as far as I remember. That in my recollection was the only time I saw her. I remember her distinctly because she is a very interesting and attractive person.
Mr.Jenner. Do you remember a Richard Pierce and a Miss Betty MacDonald attending that party?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I remember now Betty MacDonald. I don't remember whether she was at the party but I think she was the librarian at the Magnolia Research Laboratory.
Mr. Pierce is another friend of Everett's who also works at Magnolia, who eventually became his roommate, or maybe he was already a roommate at the time. I think he became a roommate later on.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything that occurred at that meeting that you think might be significant that you would like to tell us about?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I really do not remember anything significant.
Mr.Jenner. Did you remain throughout the whole evening, or did you leave before the party was over?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. I take it you did not bring the Oswalds to that meeting?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall either. I think they possibly have come by themselves. Maybe somebody else brought them. Maybe, Everett brought them.
Mr.Jenner. Either that or Everett?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; somebody else might have.
Mr.Jenner. It was not your party?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. You assisted him, however, in arranging it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; exactly.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall anything said at that meeting with respect to their eliciting from Oswald his views with respect to Russia, and in particular the former government in Russia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I remember quite a vivid discussion going on, you know, because all those people are highly intelligent, and, very intellectual groupof people interested in what goes on in the world, and as far as I know none of them has ever seen a Russian, and it was just like a new specimen of humanity, you see, that appeared in front of them, both Marina and Oswald, an American but who had been to Russia. But I don't remember any particular discussion or disagreement or agreement. I think probably Oswald was talking most of the time.
Mr.Jenner. Oswald was pretty proud, was he, of his ability to speak Russian?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. He was proud of it, yes; because it is quite an achievement for a man with a poor scholastic background to have learned the language. It is surprising to me. It was an extraordinary surprise for my wife and myself that he was able to learn to speak it so well for such a short time as he was supposed to have stayed in Russia. As I understand it, he stayed there some 2 years, I gather.
Mr.Jenner. That is all.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. And it is amazing.
Mr.Jenner. In speaking of that, as I recall, you noted he had a conversational command of the language.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But that he did not speak a refined Russian.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No, no; not a refined Russian.
Mr.Jenner. He had trouble with his grammar?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were there occasions when you knew them in which Marina would correct his grammar and there would be an altercation between them or something?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes; there was bickering all the time. There was bickering all the time. I don't remember whether it was especially on the point of grammar, but there was bickering between them all the time.
But as I said before, the bickering was mainly because Marina smoked and he didn't approve of it, that she liked to drink and he did not approve of it. I think she liked to put the makeup on and he didn't let her use the makeup. My wife will explain a little bit more in detail what was going on between them, you see, because she was a confidante of Marina's, you see. I was not.
Mr.Jenner. Would you elaborate, please?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Well, my wife being a woman was interested in a woman's problems, you see, Marina's, in the baby and in her makeup, in the way she dressed and the way she behaved, you see. She tried to correct her manners, correct, teach her how to be a human being, you see, which Marina did not know very well. She was doing her best to learn. She wanted to, but she really had a very poor background, you see.
Mr.Jenner. You made a comment that you just said your wife had confidence in Marina, but you didn't. What did you mean by that?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Confidence from what point of view?
Mr.Jenner. I don't know.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I mentioned that because I don't like a woman who bitches at her husband all the time, and she did, you know. She annoyed him. She bickered. She brought the worst out in him. And she told us after they would get a fight, you know, that he was fighting also. She would scratch him also.
Mr.Jenner. She would scratch him?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She would scratch him also.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall the time?
I will put the question this way in order to draw on your recollection, rather than mine.
There was an occasion, was there not, that Marina left Lee by herself?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Without being taken?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I have a recollection of that.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that. When did it occur?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't remember when it occurred.
Mr.Jenner. Does October 1963 refresh your recollection?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Very possible, but that was the period when we were very busy with our cystic fibrosis campaign.
I do recall that one day I was in Fort Worth and I decided to come to see Mrs. Hall, with whom Marina was staying.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware of the fact that Marina was at Mrs. Hall's?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware of how she had gotten there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall how it happened, but I was aware, somebody told me that, that she was staying at Mrs. Hall's.
Mr.Jenner. The Halls were separated at that time, were they not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; and Mrs. Hall had the boy friend who was a friend of mine.
Mr.Jenner. What was his name?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. A long name, German name, but he was of Polish extraction. He was in the plastic business. Now, his name, Doctor—he worked for some plastic company in Fort Worth. Kleinlerer, Alex Kleinlerer. That is the name.
Well, I had a very hard time finding the house where Mrs. Hall lived. I think Mr. Clark told me. That is probably it.
Mr.Jenner. Max Clark.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Max Clark probably told me that Marina is there.
Mr.Jenner. Is that 4760 Trail Lake Drive?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; Trail Lake Drive. That is the place. And I drove over and here was Marina, Mrs. Hall and Alex Kleinlerer. I don't remember what we were talking about, what we discussed at that time. It was a friendly visit to say how are you.
Mr.Jenner. What I was getting at, Mr. De Mohrenschildt, was that this was an occasion when Marina had left her husband?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And come to the Halls?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is, it is an occasion distinct from the one in which you took Marina?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Away from her husband. And this occasion we are now talking about at the Halls occurred subsequently to the time that you had taken her to the Mellers?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes. I think it was after our taking her away to the Mellers.
Mr.Jenner. When you arrived there, what did you discuss in respect to why Marina was there?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I think I was discussing, I was talking to Alex Kleinlerer and to Mrs. Hall.
Yes; something vaguely comes to my mind that Mrs. Hall was saying that Marina should leave their place.
Mr.Jenner. Should leave the Halls?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Should leave the Halls. The husband is coming back or something like that, something to that effect.
Mr.Jenner. Her husband is returning?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; something to that effect.
Mr.Jenner. And did Marina leave?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That I do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. You don't recall that she then went somewhere else?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I do not recall. If you could refresh my memory I may remember better. Again, I want to underline that all this is history for me, you see.
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that, and I must avoid trying to put things in your mind also.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which is what I am attempting to do.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right. As I remember, take Mrs. Hall—yes; I remember what we were talking about.
Mrs. Hall had had an accident, and she had either a broken leg or a broken arm, something like that, and she was in a cast. That is it. So we were talking about the accident most of the time, you see, what happened.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that is a fact.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; she had an accident. I remember now.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any discussion or do you have any opinion with respect to Marina's religious belief, whether she had any, any religious feeling?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I had a vague impression—I don't remember because I do not discuss religion too often—that she had religious beliefs of some sort, you see. She was a Greek Orthodox and did have some sort of religious belief.
Mr.Jenner. What about Lee, on the other hand?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Lee, I think religion did not exist for him.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't believe in God?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. God, I don't know, because I didn't ask him a straight forward question, but I know that he did not believe in any organized religion. That is for sure. But he never was militantly against religion as far as I remember.
Mr.Jenner. But you have no recollection of any discussions or any impression on your part about Marina going back to Russia at any time?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely goes on in my head.
Mr.Jenner. Oswald trying to get her to return to Russia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Something vaguely goes on in my mind, but I do not recall. Very possible, you see, that something was mentioned like that. I didn't pay any attention, in other words.
Mr.Jenner. Did Oswald express views with respect to individual liberty and freedom of the press?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I don't think he understood the freedom of the press, and individual liberties. I think he was too stupid to understand the advantages we have of the free press and the free speech. Not too stupid, I mean, but too uneducated to understand the great advantages we have in free press and free discussion and in individual freedoms.
Like many native-born Americans, he did not appreciate the advantages you get in this country, you see. You have to be a foreigner to appreciate it a little bit more. Many Russians, all the Russian refugees appreciate that, you see, but many who are born here don't appreciate it. Not all of them.
Mr.Jenner. What about Marina and her politics?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Marina was definitely more appreciative of life in the United States.
Mr.Jenner. Was she inclined to discuss politics?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Not too much; no. That was Lee's main point, you see, to discuss politics.
Mr.Jenner. What was her attitude toward Lee's views in that respect?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. She more or less considered him a crackpot, as far as I remember, you see. A few times she said, "Oh, that crazy lunatic. Again he is talking about politics."
This is one of the reasons we liked her, because that was a very intelligent attitude, you see, but it was very annoying to Lee.
Mr.Jenner. That was another source of annoyance between them?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; there were so many sources of annoyance, as you know, that it was just an unhappy marriage.
Mr.Jenner. You have stated at one time Oswald gave you something to read that he had written.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; I don't remember at what particular time, but he gave me to read his typewritten memoirs of his stay in Minsk.
Mr.Jenner. Was it in the form of a diary?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes, more or less the form of a diary, not day by day, but just impressions. And as far as I remember, I read through these typewritten pages, I don't remember how many of them there were, and made comments on it, you see. But I don't think they were fit for publication.
Mr.Jenner. Were they political in nature?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; not political in nature, but there was nothing particularly interesting to an average person to read. It was just a descriptionof life in a factory in Minsk. Not terribly badly written, not particularly well.
Mr.Jenner. Not good, not bad?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Not good, not bad. Nothing that I really remember too well. I don't remember too well what was written there.
Mr.Jenner. I will show the witness pages 220 through 244, Commission Document No. 206. Would you glance through those pages and tell me if it has the material he showed you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember seeing that beginning.
Mr.Jenner. Let's get over to the area in Minsk.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; that is not at all familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. The witness is now looking at page 232.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Starting here at the bottom of page 232 it looks familiar to me. How many mistakes he makes here, it is terrible. It does not look familiar to me. I think it was something else that he showed me. I do not recall that. That I definitely do not remember.
Mr.Jenner. What?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I would have remembered that sentence, you know.
Mr.Jenner. You are now on page 235:
"I am having a light affair with Nell Korobka."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I would have remembered something like that, you see. Again another sentence I do not recall.
Mr.Jenner. "My conquest of Anna Tachina, a girl from Riga."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Do you want me to glance through that? It does not look like the same document.
Mr.Jenner. If it is not the samedocument——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't think it is the same document.
Mr.Jenner. Now I will have the witness look at pages 247 through 301. This is a composition entitled "The Collective" and "Minsk, Russia," with a foreword, an autobiographical sketch of Oswald.
I will direct your attention to some of these headings, "Description of Radio Factory," "Quota Conditions," "Description of TV Shop," "Background of Shops," "Individual Workers," "Controls of Collectives," "Demonstrations in Meetings," "Factory Makeup," and "Peoples," "Layout of City of Minsk," "Tourist Permits and Tourist Passports," "Collective Farms and Schools, Vacations."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember this document, but I think I remember something, "Layout of City of Minsk," because that would have attracted my attention.
Mr.Jenner. All right, let's find that spot.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That looks familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. First there is a heading, "About the Author." I call your attention to a statement which says, "Exotic journeys on his part to Japan and the Philippines and the scores of odd islands in the Pacific." Did he ever discuss that with you?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. He was at Subic Bay in the Philippines?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I don't remember him mentioning that to me.
Mr.Jenner. Now the witness is looking at part 1, which is on page 248.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; this looks slightly, vaguely familiar, starting from page 248. That looks vaguely familiar. I am not going to read all this because it looks very boring to me. I mean it is something that doesn't interest me. It looks vaguely familiar.
Mr.Jenner. Does it also refresh your recollection of discussions you had with him before his life in Russia?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That looks familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. This whole division?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. This whole division looks familiar to me. As I said before, I did not look carefully when I originally saw this document, and I think this is the same one, because it looks familiar to me.
I just glanced through. I realized that it is not fit for publication. You can see it right away. Who is interested to read about comrade this and comrade that, you see?
But it is a factual, it seems like a factual report on his conditions of life of a worker.
Mr.Jenner. It is horrible grammar.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Horrible grammar.
Mr.Jenner. And horrible spelling.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But it could be reworked by somebody?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Let's get to the next division here.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Here is something that I remember we discussed.
Mr.Jenner. You are now at page 262.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I think here he talks about those meetings.
Mr.Jenner. That he did not like?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That he did not like.
Do I have to read that? Frankly, it isvery——
Mr.Jenner. No; you don't. We are trying to find out whether this is the paper he showed you.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Here is something.
Mr.Jenner. I now direct your attention to page 269.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. This is something that is much more familiar to me because I was interested in the town itself.
Mr.Jenner. And this is the paragraph beginning, "The reconstruction of Minsk is on an interesting story reflecting the courage of its builders."
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Yes; that was something that interested me because I lived in my childhood in this town and I remembered some of the buildings. I remember asking Oswald about what happened to this street and that street, you see. But I forgot the names. I just described them. What happened to this street and that street?
He gave me some sort of an answer that now it is full of big buildings, you see, and I remember it as being full of small provincial houses, you see. And again I cannot swear to the fact that that is the same paper I saw.
Mr.Jenner. But this seems to you more familiar?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. More familiar maybe because I paid more attention to the city than I paid to something else.
Mr.Jenner. This is quite a long diatribe.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It couldn't be the same document because that wasn't as long as that.
Mr.Jenner. It was not?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No.
Mr.Jenner. I now exhibit to the witness a series of five untitled compositions on political subjects appearing in the same exhibit I have already identified, the first of which is at page 304.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. This is definitely not familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. And runs through page 309.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. I am just glancing through but it doesn't look familiar to me. Maybe I just didn't pay any attention.
Mr.Jenner. The next commences on page 310 and runs through to page 312. It is a short one.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; that doesn't look familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. The next commences at page 313 and concludes at page 315.
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. It does not look familiar to me. As I said before, I have the impression that the pages he showed me were only about the city of Minsk and the TV factory there, but not about his life.
Mr.Jenner. Were they typewritten or in longhand?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Typewritten.
Mr.Jenner. The balance is on pages 318 through 329. Would you glance through those, please?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. Oh, that is definitely nothing that I have seen before, because it has the name of General Walker in it.
Mr.Jenner. And you had not seen it?
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. No; I had not seen it. Now, the publication, notthe publication, the document I saw was, as far as I remember, not political, but a very simple account of his life in Minsk, and in the TV factory.
Mr.Jenner. I think we had better call Mrs. De Mohrenschildt and tellher——
Mr.De Mohrenschildt. That she is ready for action?
Mr.Jenner. No; that we are going to run you well into the afternoon. I have got a couple more pages of notes here. Maybe around 3:30 will be closer.
If you think it would be better to release her for the afternoon or find out where she is going to be.
(Whereupon, at 12:55 p.m., the proceeding was recessed.)