Mr.Jenner. I wish to call your attention to a couple portions of the letter and ask you a question or two.
In the second paragraph which I have underlined for my notes it reads:
"He has been out of work"—I will read the whole paragraph.
"To my surprise Lee was willing for Marina to come here to have the baby."
That is Irving, Tex.?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. "Even grateful." Then you say, "He has been out of work since August, and their income was $33 a week unemployment compensation, not much."
Now, this letter was written from where and followed what event?
Mrs.Paine. This was written from Irving on September 30, and it followed our arrival in Irving on the 24th of September.
Mr.Jenner. From New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. From New Orleans. I had forgotten that I had heard the sum or the amount of money he was receiving in unemployment compensation.
Mr.Jenner. But this does not refresh your recollection?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It does?
Mrs.Paine. It refreshes my recollection that my mother has shown me the same letter. I registered the same surprise then. I had quite forgotten that sum.
Mr.Jenner. Now, in the next paragraph it says:
"But I feel now that he does want to keep his family together, and will send for them as soon as possible."
That was your feeling at that time?
Mrs.Paine. It certainly was.
Mr.Jenner. After New Orleans?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you will notice in the letter, you say: "I spoke both to Lee and to Marina of my expectation that you would be here February to June. Lee asked how this would affect Marina's tenure, and I said she can have a place as long as they have need for it."
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Now was there, then, at that time, a feeling or expectation that Marina would remain with you possibly for some considerable period of time?
Mrs.Paine. I had not that feeling, as is shown by what is written in the above sentence, that he will send for his family as soon as possible. However, I had made it clear that I was willing for her to stay if that was necessary.
Mr.Jenner. So that the text of that letter was not intended by you to convey the impression that you then expected at least at that time and that Lee also might have expected and Marina, also, that she would be at your home for any considerable period of time?
Mrs.Paine. I did not expect that.
Mr.Jenner. As to your expectation—was that dependent on his securing employment and sending for her, and at that time both of you, meaning Marina and yourself, expected that when he obtained work he would send for Marina and they would be together again?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the second letter, which is dated October 15, 1963, and apparently at your home, it says 2575, it is 2515, isn't it?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. West 5th Street—and it is also a "Dear Mom" letter. Would you look at that and see if you did dispatch that letter to your mother?
For the record, Mr. Reporter, this present letter commences in the middle of page 15 of this document.
Do you recall the letter?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you report the fact the big news as of that day, that Lee had obtained a position.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Was that his position with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You don't mention the place of work in your letter.
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Jenner. You go on to say in the second paragraph of the letter:
"It is likely that Marina will stay on here for some time, perhaps through Christmas or New Year's anyway, with Lee coming weekends as he has the past two."
Had there been some change now that even though he had a position with the Texas School Book Depository, that Marina's joining him was being deferred?
Mrs.Paine. I think that is clear in the next sentence.
Mr.Jenner. All right; read the next sentence.
Mrs.Paine. "He has a room in Dallas at $8 a week currently, that he'd like to save a bit before getting an apartment, I think, and, of course, Marina should be here until she has rested some from childbirth."
We talked for some time of her being there both up to the birth of the baby and then for a time after so that I could help her with the care of the house, and with June.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have an expectation that that stay might be on into the following year?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. 1964?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I notice you say in the last paragraph of this particular letter: "I have mentioned to Marina that I'd like to have you here in February and that I have given up the idea of a trailer."
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, to me that is an indication that you expected that Marina might be with you as late as February 1964. Do I misinterpret? In other words, Mrs. Paine, you were considering the possible difficulties that might arise from the fact that you were expecting your mother.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You hoped she might join you in February of 1964, and that Marina might still be with you?
Mrs.Paine. I feel that mentioning this to Marina was more an indication that it would be difficult for me to have her after February. I didn't make mention of this until such time as it was clear to me they could well get an apartment and support themselves.
Mr.Jenner. And you were thinking in terms that if your mother did come that it would probably be necessary that Marina join her husband?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. In Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. During this period of time, did you have any feeling at all that Lee was—there might be an anticipation on his part that he would not rejoin Marina, or she him, that something might possibly intervene, an action on his part that would keep them separated?
Mrs.Paine. I had no such feeling.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a contrary feeling?
Mrs.Paine. I had a contrary feeling from both, from each.
Mr.Jenner. And what was that?
Mrs.Paine. Marina talked to me of her hopes that what problems they had in the marriage would work out, and Lee appeared to me happy when he was with Marina and June, and glad to see them, and I also felt that Marina remained somewhat uncomfortable accepting from someone else, that she preferred the more independent situation.
Mr.Jenner. State?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But you had no inkling at all or any feeling, the sense on his part either directly from him or through Marina that he might not continue in the position, that is the Texas School Depository or might not continue to live in the Dallas area?
Mrs.Paine. I had no such feeling. My expectation was contrary.
Mr.Jenner. When you read Commission Exhibit 103, which I have described as the Mexico letter that you found on your desk secretary, did you have any feeling after you read that that Lee might have in mind going to Havana or going back to Russia through Mexico, or some other manner or means?
Mrs.Paine. No; I really didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Did you think that letter was by and large something of a figment of the imagination of Lee?
Mrs.Paine. It seemed to me that a goodly portion of it, the part upon which I could judge, was false.
Mr.Jenner. The third of the letters that your mother made available appears on page 16. It is dated October 27. I take it from the context of that letter, it was written by you on October 27, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you recall sending that letter to your mother?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. And it was written after the baby Rachel had been born?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
What? It was written some time after the baby had been born?
Mr.Jenner. Yes, 7 days. One week, as a matter of fact, is that right?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I offer in evidence as Commission Exhibit No. 461 the three letters which I have identified and which the witness herself has identified as having been her letters and having been dispatched to her mother.
(The documents heretofore marked for identification as Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 461, were received in evidence.)
Mr.Jenner. I don't know if I asked you if the second and third had actually been dispatched by you.
Mrs.Paine. They had all been dispatched by me, yes.
Mr.Jenner. During the period of your contacts with each of the Oswalds, was there any discussion between them in your presence or with you directly by either of them respecting his family and members of his family?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I should limit that first to up to November 22, 1963. If so, would your answer be the same?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And what was that discussion? Try and fix the time and places if any particular discussion stands out.
Mrs.Paine. I have already testified to Marina's comment on wishing she could reach her mother-in-law to announce the baby's coming birth. Marina also talked tome——
Mr.Jenner. And that Lee did not give her the telephone number or advise her of means whereby she could reach her mother-in-law?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Did she indicate to you that he, in turn, had indicated he didn't wishher——
Mrs.Paine. She indicated that he did not wish to make contact.
Mr.Jenner. Did it go beyond that, that he did not wish members of his family to know that the child Rachel had been born?
Mrs.Paine. Not that specifically.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. Marina told of having stayed with Lee's brother Robert and Robert's wife in Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. When they first returned from Russia?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct. And of her sorrow that she hadn't been able to talk more, having virtually no English, but that she had liked both of them.
I also learned from her that Robert had been assigned by the same company for which he worked in Fort Worth to a different town, I think in Alabama for a brief period, and then I heard in October or early November that he hadbeen——
Mr.Jenner. Of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that he had been transferred to Denton.
Mr.Jenner. Denton, Tex.?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else?
Mrs.Paine. Part of the correspondence that I have given to the Commission contains a reference by Marina to Lee's brother, to the best of my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Brother Robert?
Mrs.Paine. I can look that up. It doesn't say. But I assumed so.
Mr.Jenner. Are you aware now that Lee had two brothers?
Mrs.Paine. I am now aware of that.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware during their contact with you up to November 22, 1963, that he had two brothers?
Mrs.Paine. I have a vague recollection that Marina had mentioned there being another brother, but I am not certain.
Mr.Jenner. Did anything occur in the way of conversation or otherwise that brought to your attention the fact, if it be a fact, that Lee was avoiding contact with his brother and his mother?
Mrs.Paine. I was under theimpression——
Mr.Jenner. In the fall of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. I was under the impression that he was not avoiding contact with his brother, but that he was avoiding contact with his mother.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware during this fall period that he was employing a post office box, he had rented a post office box and was using it to receive communications?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. At any time during your acquaintance with the Oswalds had anything been said about his renting a post office box?
Mrs.Paine. There was an occasion, I think it must have been after we had been to the bus station on April 24 that he asked to go by the main post office in Dallas to pick up some things. That would have implied a post office box there. But thatwas——
Mr.Jenner. What date was this?
Mrs.Paine. April 24, to the best of my recollection. I can'tthink——
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead.
Mrs.Paine. I recall that I was driving and Lee went into this main post office.
Mr.Jenner. Where? In Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. In Dallas, and the only time I can think it could have been was that day.
Mr.Jenner. Did he come out with any mail?
Mrs.Paine. Magazines, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Were you able to observe what those magazines were?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever speak of his life as a youth and a young man?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or his experiences in the service?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you know or were you aware that he had been in the service?
Mrs.Paine. His two large duffels which I saw a number of times said Marine Corps on them.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion of the fact that he had been in the Marines?
Mrs.Paine. I think it had been mentioned. I don't specifically recall.
Mr.Jenner. But just in passing, not in the sense of his relating any of his experiences in the Marines?
Mrs.Paine. No; I do recall one occasion in late October or early November when Marina said to me in the morning that the two of them had had a long and very pleasant conversation. Lee related things about his past life, for instance his having been in Japan.
Mr.Jenner. Did she elaborate?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Just talked in terms of conclusion, that is, that he had related these events to her and they had talked about it for some time?
Mrs.Paine. The point of her telling me of this was that this was unusual. He didn't usually reminisce and converse in this way.
Mr.Jenner. Have you had a contact with or she with you, a Mrs. Shirley Martin?
Mrs.Paine. Mrs. Shirley Martin came to visit me at my home, accompanied by her four children, and dog, some time in January–February, I don't know just when.
Mr.Jenner. Late January or early February?
Mrs.Paine. I would guess so.
Mr.Jenner. Of this year?
Mrs.Paine. Of 1964; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please relate that incident to us?
Mrs.Paine. She telephoned to ask if she could come out.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known her?
Mrs.Paine. I had not known her. I had heard her name from the New York Times correspondent in Dallas, who said he had received a letter from her.
Mr.Jenner. All right; proceed.
Mrs.Paine. She came out, told me that she had been in Dallas going over the route which Lee Oswald is supposed to have taken from the School Book Depository to his rooming house, and thence to the place where he was arrested, and she was in a hurry at that point to get back to suburban Tulsa, Okla., but wanted to ask me a few questions, and I answered whatever she wanted to know.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall what her questions were?
Mrs.Paine. I don't specifically recall; no.
Mr.Jenner. Have you had any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs.Paine. I have answered one of her letters by writing in the margin the answers to the questions that letter posed, and sending the whole thing back to her.
Mr.Jenner. So that you do not have a copy of any correspondence with Mrs. Martin?
Mrs.Paine. She has sent more than one letter. I said I had answered one and sent it back on that letter. I have perhaps four—no; perhaps as many as eight letters from her now that, some are directly typed and some are just carbons of something she has said to a large group of people. We have also had some communication by telephone.
Mr.Jenner. May I see those letters when I am in Dallas Monday and Tuesday?
Mrs.Paine. You can certainly see them.
Mr.Jenner. Would you summarize generally what the inquiries of Mrs. Martin have been and the subject matter and the nature of your responses? Telephone, or otherwise?
Mrs.Paine. I do recall in the initial visit when she was in my home I asked her if she thought Lee Oswald was not guilty of the crime he is alleged to have committed and she said, well, that she couldn't say that, that it would be foolish at this point in the inquiry to say that, but that she was not satisfied with the evidence that led to a public conclusion that he was guilty.
Mr.Jenner. Did you express any opinion on your part?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. On that subject?
Mrs.Paine. I said that I thought he was guilty of the act.
Mr.Jenner. You did not know Mrs. Martin prior to the time she came to your door?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. And your acquaintance with her in the interim has been limited to what you have testified?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you are not working with Mrs. Martin in her campaign or crusade or whatever it may be?
Mrs.Paine. No; I answer any questions she has just as I do answer questions of newsmen or other people who wish to inquire about what I know.
Mr.Jenner. Would you please give me your impression of Lee Oswald's personality, what you think made him tick, any foibles of his, your overall impression now as you have it sitting there of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. My overall impression progressed through several stages.
Mr.Jenner. Why don't you give those. I think it would be helpful to us if you would. Start at the beginning.
Mrs.Paine. In the spring what I knew of him was that he wanted to send his wife away back to the Soviet Union, which she didn't want to do, that he would not permit her to learn English or certainly didn't encourage it. I knew that he had lost his job and looked unsuccessfully. I formed an initial negative opinion about him, on really very little personal contact. I saw him very briefly the evening of the 22d of February, the evening of the second of April, and the afternoon of the 20th of April, and again on the 24th of April and so as far as I remember that is virtually all of the contact I had had directly with him.
And this impression stayed with me throughout the summer and throughout my visits to various friends and family on my trip of August and September 1963, and I undoubtedly conveyed to the people I talked to during that time that impression, which I carried at that time.
When I saw him again in New Orleans, beginning the 20th of September, I was impressed quite differently.
He seemed friendly. He seemed grateful, as reported in this letter to my mother, even grateful that I was offering to have his wife in my home and help her make arrangements at Parkland Hospital to have the baby there, at a fee adjusted to their income. He appeared to me to be happy, called cheerily to Marina and June as he came in the house with a bag full of groceries. He, as I described, washed the dishes that evening that Marina and I went down to Bourbon Street. And particularly in parting on the morning of September 23 I felt he was really sorry to see them go. He kissed them both at the house as we first took off and then again when we left from the gas station where I had bought a tire.
And I felt, as expressed in this letter that you just showed me to my mother that he hoped to have his family together again as soon as he could.
Then, of course, the impression enlarged as I saw him in my home on the weekends beginning October 4, and I have read into the record one letter I wrote to my mother during that period, which shows that he tried to be helpful around the house, that he played with my children, that he, it appeared to me, was becoming more relaxed and less fearful of being rejected, and I had sensed in him this fear earlier. It was because I had sensed in him in the spring this insecurity and feelings of inadequacies that the thought once crossed my mind as expressed to Mrs. Rainy that he could be guilty of a crime of passion if he thought someone was taking away from him his wife, something valuable to him. Clearly he valued Marina. She was his only human contact, really, and I thinkwhile——
Mr.Jenner. His only human contact?
Mrs.Paine. Really, so far as I could see, the only friend he had, and while he did quarrel and was petty with her on many times that I saw, he, I felt, valued her, and, of course, it is also true, as I have reported, that I never saw him physically violent to her or cruel, so that my impression of him, which I carried with me throughout my trip during the summer, changed, and my impression of him up to thetime——
Mr.Jenner. Of the assassination?
Mrs.Paine. Of the assassination, was of a struggling young man who wanted to support his family, who was having difficulty, who wanted to achieve something more in life than just the support of his family and raising children, who was very lonely, but yet could meet socially with people and be congenial when he made efforts to be.
Mr.Jenner. Was that effort confined largely to his immediate family?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I recallspecifically——
Mr.Jenner. And to you and your children?
Mrs.Paine. And I think I told you this, but that it is not in the record, that Mrs. Ruth Kloepfer with her two daughters—no; I mentioned that to the record—came over to their house in New Orleans in September, and he was a genial host on that occasion, and he was, I felt, enjoying being the center of interest for four or five people at this initial party when I first met him.
Mr.Jenner. That was in the spring? That was February of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Right; so that it is in this period when he was coming out weekends in the fall to my home that he seemed to me a man striving, wanting to achieve something, a man without much formal schooling nor much native intelligence, really, but a striver, trying hard, and I never felt any sense during that period that he might be a violent person or apt to break over from mild maladjustment to active violent hostility towards an individual.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any feeling or impression that he in turn felt frustrated, that the ideals and objectives toward which he was reaching were unattainable, and he was having that feeling that they were unattainable, or at least that others were not accepting him in the concept in which he regarded himself?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and I think I have testifiedthat——
Mr.Jenner. Was that fairly distinct in your mind?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was quite distinct. I don't believe he felt successful.
As I have said, I didn't talk much with him about what his aims were. But it seemed to me, and Marina expressed to me her feeling, that he had an overblown opinion of himself, and of what he could and should achieve in the world.
Mr.Jenner. What is your impression of him as his being introspective or an introvert or an extrovert? Did he seek friends or did he avoid social contact? What are your impressions in those areas of him?
Mrs.Paine. I would say that he was a combination, that the man within was an introvert, preferred the company of the television set or a book, but that he could, as I have said, be a genial host or go to a meeting of the American Civil Liberties Union with my husband, and I understand that he made a fairly good impression upon some of the people there.
And I have also heard that he was making a fairly good impression where he was working at this last place.
Further, it is not the sign of an introvert to blow off on little things to your wife, as he did. I felt that he exercised the safety valve of expressing irritations early. He didn't save them up. They came right out. I mightsay, also, I felt that he was primarily an emotional person, though he talked of ideology and philosophy, that what moved him and what reached him were the more emotional qualities of life, and that he was really unusually sensitive to hurt.
Now, some of this is hindsight, and I would like to label it as such, but I want to say that I was not at all surprised reading after the assassination that he took a little puppy to his favorite teacher as a gift, and then came over to see this puppy very often. This was in the fourth grade or so. As an effort to make a warm contact and show feeling.
Mr.Jenner. That is, if this incident did in fact take place, it was something that you could understand?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Understand in the sense that it might besomething——
Mrs.Paine. In terms of what I saw.
Mr.Jenner. That Lee Oswald would have done, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. As a child.
I did feel that very likely he took fewer and fewer risks making friends as he grew up than he perhaps had as a child, but I was guessing at that, the risk of being close, in other words.
Mr.Jenner. Took fewer and fewer risks?
Mrs.Paine. I think he was fearful of being close to anyone.
Mr.Jenner. Or being hurt?
Mrs.Paine. Because he could, therefore, be hurt, right.
Mr.Jenner. Not being accepted?
Mrs.Paine. If he allowed himself to be friends or be close, then he opened the possibility of the friend hurting him, and I had this feeling about him, that he couldn't permit or stand such hurt.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell us of your feelings toward Marina? You liked her? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I like her very much. I felt always that what I wanted to say and what I was able to understand of what she said was hampered by my poor Russian. It improved a good deal while with her, and we did have very personal talks about our respective marriages.
But I felt this was just a developing friendship, not one in full bloom, by any means. I respected what I saw in her, her pride, her wish to be independent, her habit of hard work, and expecting to work, her devotion to her children, first to June and then to both of the little girls, and the concentration of her attention upon this job of mother, and of raising these children.
I also respected her willingness and effort to get on with Lee, and to try to make the best of what apparently was not a particularly good marriage, but yet she had made that commitment and she expected to do her best for it.
Mr.Jenner. What is your present reaction, and even as you went along, of her feeling or regard for or with respect to you?
Mrs.Paine. I felt she liked me. I felt she tended to put me in a position of Aunt Ruth, as she called me, I have already said, to Junie, almost as aunt to her rather than a mother as she was equal, in other words, she was a young mother and I was a young mother equal in age and stage in life.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, you were of her age, were you?
Mrs.Paine. No; I am older than she. I am 31.
Mr.Jenner. You are 31 and she is what?
Mrs.Paine. Twenty-two. But our children were fairly close in age, and our immediate problems were fairly similar therefore.
Mr.Jenner. Now; would you give me your reaction to Robert?
Mrs.Paine. I have very little reaction to Robert, of course, having met him only at the police station and said very little to him there, and equally little when he came with Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin to pick up Marina's things at my house a few weeks after the assassination. That is the sum total of my contact, so that what impressions I have have been formed from what people said and not directly formed.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, you had so little contact with him that you really have formed no particular opinion with respect to him?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any impression at all or any knowledge, if you have knowledge, of his impressions of you and of your husband?
Mrs.Paine. No; I have no knowledge of his impressions of me or my husband.
Mr.Jenner. And do you have any impressions apart from knowledge?
Mrs.Paine. No; I have some impressions about what Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin are.
Mr.Jenner. What are they? Who are the two men you mentioned—Mr. Martin?
Mrs.Paine. Mr. Martin acted as business advisor for Marina and she lived at his home for some time after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have some contact with him?
Mrs.Paine. I met him on the 21st of December at his home, came to the door and he recognized and asked me in. I don't know I had met him before because I didn't know he had been one of the men who had come with Robert to pick up the things for Marina, but he said he had been on that occasion.
(Brief recess.)
Mr.Jenner. We were talking about Mr. Martin. Go ahead.
Mrs.Paine. We had a short but fairly cordial talk and I left with him a package of letters that had come to my address but were really for Marina, containing notes and checks of donations.
Mr.Jenner. How did you become aware of what the contents of those were?
Mrs.Paine. They were addressed to me in my name, so that I opened them and then these were enclosing a check asking me to deliver it to Marina, this sort of thing.
And also brought, I can't remember, some items, things I found in the house that belonged to her very probably that we hadn't noticed when Robert had come to get the remaining items.
From a call to the Secret Service headquarters in Dallas I had gained the impression that I shouldn't try to see Marina Oswald at that time, and while I was under the impression that she was at Mr. Martin's home it was not my particular intention to see her.
I wanted to meet him if I could and learn anything that would give me some more impression of how things were going for her at that time, and with this small collection of donations for her that I was taking, I wrote a short note to her, a Christmas greeting, and returned home.
I came—perhaps I should interrupt here.
Talking about my contact with Mr. Martin and Mr. Thorne is really best done in connection with the letters I wrote to Marina, and these are—since the assassination, and these are in Irving. It might be better to do the whole thing as part of the deposition there.
Mr.Jenner. When I come to Irving this coming week?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What feeling do you have as to the reason why, if you have any at all, there appears to have been this sudden, if it is sudden, at least lack of contact between you and Marina commencing with the last time you saw her some 10 days or 2 weeks ago? When was that?
Mrs.Paine. The morning of the 23d of November.
Mr.Jenner. And you have had no contact with or from her from the 23d to some 10 days or 2 weeks ago, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. You recall I said that I had talked with her by phone the evening of the 23d and then again around noon of the 24th.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Then there was one call from her to me, telephone call from the motel where she was staying for a couple of weeks after the assassination. It was brief, but she expressed her gratitude to me.
Mr.Jenner. Her gratitude for what?
Mrs.Paine. For things that I had done, for having had her at my home. I said, either said or she asked that Michael was staying at my home now, and she said, "Well, maybe something good can come of even this terrible thing." I said that I was writing an article with a fellow for Look Magazine.
Mr.Jenner. And that is the article we put in evidence yesterday?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and she expressed her feeling that that was a good thing,really her feeling that she hoped I might get some financial remuneration from it. I think she always felt terribly indebted to me in a way she couldn't resolve. I said I had talked by telephone with Mrs. Ford the previous day. This telephone call between myself and Mrs. Ford was the first time she and I had talked.
Mr.Jenner. The first time you and Mrs. Ford had talked?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and Mrs. Ford called me. And I had taken Mrs. Ford's number that day, and gave this number to Marina over the phone. Mrs. Ford and I had talked about whether Marina should be encouraged herself to write something just from the aspect of her financial need, and that this might ease the finances, and I was hopeful that Mrs. Ford, more fluent in Russian than I, would help Marina in a decision relative to this matter. Marina said to me, "They don't know that I'm telephoning you."
Mr.Jenner. They don't know?
Mrs.Paine. That is all she said, and I didn't know to whom the "they" referred. But, because of that, I did not mention to the press or to friends that she had called, with the exception of Michael, feeling that in time she would certainly contact me again.
Mr.Jenner. Has she?
Mrs.Paine. Well, she wrote me a Christmas card with a few sentences on it.
Mr.Jenner. We have that in evidence, have we?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, no; that is part of the postcorrespondence I didn't suppose you cared about. You can pick that up in Irving.
Mr.Jenner. May I see it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, you certainly may see it, and I'll translate it for you.
The card conveys greetings to me and my family for Christmas, thanked me again for all my generosity. I felt overthanked because I didn't feel I had done very much. And said she was sorry that our friendship had ended so badly.
Mr.Jenner. She said this in the note? The answer is yes?
Mrs.Paine. The answer is yes. And I was surprised and a little hurt at the implication of its being over. I have already said that I went out to Robert Oswald's home in an effort to inquire of him and his wife what my best role might be as a friend towards Marina, or trying to express friendship to Marina at this time. I felt that possibly she was being advised not to contact me or that it was more difficult for the Secret Service to keep her location unknown if I had any contact with her or that they thought so at least. In fact, of course, I knew where she was anyway. And I also recalled something I will put in here that occurred as we were watching the television set after it was announced that the President was shot. I said, "and it happened in our city. I am going to move back east." And she knew, of course, not only because of this statement but because of the many things I have done which I have reported at that time that I was terribly grieved at Kennedy's death. And I wondered if she wouldn't possibly feel that I couldn't forgive her for simply being the wife of the accused assassin. So that I wanted to somehow convey to her that I didn't hold her guilty or carry any animosity toward her. And in the situation I just didn't know how to convey this. What I did was to write her letters talking about normal things, but requesting a reply, and I didn't get a reply.
Mr.Jenner. You did not?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a feeling that left uninfluenced and free to do as she might wish to do, that Marina is still friendly with you and regards you well and would be in contact with you?
Mrs.Paine. I have a feeling that left uninfluenced, she would have certainly remained friendly to me. If she suddenly now became uninfluenced, and perhaps she has become uninfluenced, it doesn't erase a period of influence that may have affected and may continue to affect her feelings toward me. I don't know what she has said or what was suggested about me to her, and we didn't get into anything of this nature at the one brief meeting on March 9. I didn't feel it appropriate. But a lot has passed. She was, after all—it has already been longer that I have not seen her, had no contact with her during a very trying and significant period in her life. That period was longer than the whole period she stayed with me. So much has happened, and I just don't know.
Mr.Jenner. When you visited her on March 9, was it at her present home in Richardson, Tex.?
Mrs.Paine. No. I had asked Mrs. Ford if I could come and make a tape recording at her house with her reading a Russian beginning reader text onto the tape so that I could use this to improve my pronunciation and to use it with my one Russian student, and she said she would be glad to help me with that recording, glad to help any time when someone wanted to learn Russian. We neither one could do it that week, but she called me back a week later and said that she thought it would be nice if Marina made the recording, sinceMarina——
Mr.Jenner. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford?
Mrs.Paine. This was volunteered on the part of Mrs. Ford and she suggested that I come to her house on March the 9th and we would go from her house to Marina's house and make a recording and, of course, I was pleased with the opportunity to see Marina whether or not it involved making a recording that night.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. This was at night?
Mrs.Paine. It was in the evening; yes. As it turned out, we stayed at Mrs. Ford's. We did not go to Marina's house. Marina said tome——
Mr.Jenner. Marina was at Mrs. Ford's when you arrived?
Mrs.Paine. Was at Mrs. Ford's when I arrived and we stayed there the entire time during the visit. Marina explained she didn't have her furniture yet in her house and she would like to wait and invite me when she had her own home as she wanted it, and this, I think, is quite accurate. She likes things to look nice. I think she was pleased to have a home of her own.
Mr.Jenner. Did you girls have a general conversation apart from your immediate objective of having a recording?
Mrs.Paine. We had primarily a nice visit. We did then do a recording, also. As it turned out, Mrs. Ford did the reading, because Marina really needed to take care of June, who was there, also.
Mr.Jenner. Was your impression of Marina at that time that she was friendly or at least that she was not averse?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. She was friendly. She said she was fearful that I might be angry with her for her not having answered my letters, and by making reference to the content of several of the letters I answered my own unspoken question as to whether she had received them. She had.
Mr.Jenner. She has?
Mrs.Paine. She recognized each of those things to which I referred.
Mr.Jenner. Things she mentioned during the course of this meeting?
Mrs.Paine. Indicated that she had received my letters.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; indicated to you that she had received them.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and she said she was fearful that I would be angry with her for not having answered. But she said that Mr. Martin had advised her not to write to me or reply, and that she hoped I had understood that something of this nature was affecting her, and that this was why she was not writing. I asked about the change from having Thorne as a lawyer and Martin as a business advisor, to Mr. McKenzie as a lawyer, and she thought that was a good and necessary change, was relieved that this was being done. I said that I had talked with Mr. Thorne.
Mr.Jenner. When was that?
Mrs.Paine. It was the first Friday or Saturday in January.
Mr.Jenner. Of this year?
Mrs.Paine. Of 1964, and I asked him whether she, whether Marina, had delegated power of attorney to anyone, and Mr. Thorne told me no.
Mr.Jenner. Why did you make that inquiry?
Mrs.Paine. Why did I make that inquiry?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. At that time? I was concerned. I had no idea what sort of men these were or what arrangements they had made, and it seemed to me I had heard that Thorne had told me himself that he conducted all his business with Marina in English, and I thought this cannot be very detailed, because I knew her English to be quite poor.
Mr.Jenner. Were you troubled about her understanding of what was being done?
Mrs.Paine. I was troubled about her understanding of what she had signed, and I wanted to know what powers she had delegated to someone else. Therefore, I asked specifically about power of attorney, and he told me, no, she had not delegated that.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a sense of responsibility in this area?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. But this was not mere curiosity or meddling on your part?
Mrs.Paine. I felt that it was possible that she was being protected from her friends, and that had noone——
Mr.Jenner. You mean isolated from her friends?
Mrs.Paine. All right; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you really mean that, isolated rather than protected from?
Mrs.Paine. Well, that someone may have thought she should not talk to me.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. And, further, I learned that she hadn't spoken at an earlier time, at that time, to Mrs. Ford. I did not know of anyone who spoke Russian except for official translators for Secret Service or the FBI who had been to see her, and this seemed to me wrong. So I was concerned. And when I reported this conversation with Mr. Thorne to Marina, she said, "Well, that is a lie" and Isaid——
Mr.Jenner. Shesaid——
Mrs.Paine. That is a lie. She had delegated power of attorney, and I knew that at this time I was reporting the conversation to Marina on the 9th of March because I had read it in the paper.
Mr.Jenner. You had learned it in the meantime?
Mrs.Paine. Had learned in the meantime that she had delegated power of attorney.
Mr.Jenner. I have been seeking all that occurred in your visit with Marina and Mrs. Ford in the Ford home on March 9. Have you completed that? Is there anything you would like to add?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I would like to add that Mrs. Ford was out for a brief period. She went to the washerteria to pick up some clothes that had been at the drier so that for a time Marina and I were alone perfectly free to say anything we wanted.
Mr.Jenner. And during that period was your conversation, your visit with Marina pleasant?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, indeed; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Free and open? What reaction did you get during the period you were alone with her as to her feeling or regard or how she felt about you?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I felt she was certainly friendly, but I felt the strain of wanting to avoid any reference to her husband or to the events that were so painful to us both. And I didn't want to ask directly anything about why she hadn't written or confront her with that. She did say as I was working at the tape recorder later, and Mrs. Ford was reading from the book, we came to a break in the recording and Marina commented, she had been sitting across the room watching, my profile was very like her mother's, and this is not the first time she has made the connection to my physical build and that of her mother. I don't give this much significance, but I do have the impression that there are many feelings and mixed feelings in us both. It is not a simple relationship.
Mr.Jenner. Do you anticipate the possibility of, I will use the word, renewing, it may not be the right word.
Mrs.Paine. I think that would be right. There has been a distinct break.
Mr.Jenner. Of this cordial friendship and relationship with Marina?
Mrs.Paine. I would like that if it comes about.
Mr.Jenner. And do you have a feeling that there is a possibility of that arising out of your contact with her on March 9, having now talked with her face to face?
Mrs.Paine. I think there is that possibility. I would like her to do some of the initiating, if not most of it at this point. I said I was going to Washington. I had just heard that same evening before going to the Fords. Mrs.Ford said that she and her husband were to go to Washington, and when. And I said when I would be back home, and Marina implied that she might try to contact me then. I am hopeful that she will. I don't have any particular plans to attempt to contact her.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any feeling other than charity in your heart for Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes; certainly. I like her very much as a person. This doesn't mean that I understand her, that she is a person to whom I feel automatically kindred. She was raised in Soviet Russia. She has a background very foreign to my own. I am not even aware of some of the kinds of differences this may cause. I do think that she is a good thinker and a free thinker and that she thinks for herself. I was interested to note what I have put into the record, I believe, yesterday evening about her comment to Mr. Hosty, the first time he came to the house, that she thought Castro was not getting an entirely fair press or not being pictured well in this country, to present a contrary opinion in this situation, and an independent opinion, possibly, clearly unpopular, or she could well suspect it would be unpopular with the FBI agent showed a certain amount of independence and courage and self-confidence, I felt, more what I would expect of an American than of a person raised to be fearful of secret police and state domination.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have anything you want to add in this connection?
Mrs.Paine. Just the observation that her view of herself and of what she should do now that her husband has been accused of assassinating the President of the United States must be very strongly affected by the fact that she was raised in Soviet Russia, not here, but the fact that she is an emigre hopeful of staying, but by no means native.
Mr.Jenner. Did she ever talk to you, I think you mentioned before that she was hopeful of staying. Did she express that to you?
Mrs.Paine. On several occasions.
Mr.Jenner. And of ultimately becoming a citizen of the United States?
Mrs.Paine. She didn't mention that, but I assumed it.
Mr.Jenner. You assumed it from the nature of the conversation?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I didn't hear anything specifically stated about that until I read it in the paper after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to limit it first not to what you read in the paper and your being influenced thereby, but from your contacts with Marina, and the conversations that you had, there must have been many, many of them.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In your home. Do you have a feeling that she has a hope or desire or an intention eventually to become a citizen of the United States?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall that specifically. I recall on several occasions thatshe——
Mr.Jenner. I am seeking only your impression now.
Mrs.Paine. I will try to answer it by giving these impressions. She expressed many times her wish to stay in this country. She wanted to raise her children here. She was interested in June's learning English and was very concerned that June be able to speak English before she entered school. Indeed, I felt she was not enough concerned that June maintain a bilingual background. She wouldn't have cared if June only learned English, whereas, I, here struggling hard to learn Russian, thought that June could have a chance to learn it easily, but her expression of interest was in June's learning English and not any particular desire to maintain a bilingual quality.
Mr.Jenner. I would share your feeling. I wish I had the command of more than English. I would like very much to do so. I took a lot of Spanish, but it is completely gone now.
Mrs.Paine. It is very hard to be truly bilingual. Few children have the opportunity.
Mr.Jenner. I have just a couple technicalities on the diary and on your address book, so I can establish them for the record. I would like to go through Commission Exhibit 401, which is the calendar. The entry on page 3 of the exhibit in reference to Lawrence Hoke—that is your brother-in-law? Oh, that is your nephew?
Mrs.Paine. He was born last April 14, 1963, and I wrote it down.
Mr.Jenner. Nothing to do with the Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. The next sheet is blank, of course. Now, to the calendar itself, are there any entries in January that have reference to Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. February?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Pick them out according to dates.
Mrs.Paine. Well, you must understand that some of these were written at the time and some were put in later.
Mr.Jenner. All right; distinguish between them, please.
Mrs.Paine. I wrote down on February 15, June's birthday, 9:55 a.m., Minsk. That was written in later.
Mr.Jenner. That is, she was born on February 15. Did you put the year in there?
Mrs.Paine. The year does not appear. I, of course, know it.
Mr.Jenner. And that was the previous year?
Mrs.Paine. She was born in 1962.
Mr.Jenner. 1962. Any other reference or entry in the month of February that has relation to the Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. At the top is written "Marina last period February 5" crossed out "or 15th." This refers to menstrual period trying to figure when the baby would be due, and it was an inaccurate notation I learned later. Then there is a note written at the time, the only one on this page that refers to the Oswalds that was written at the time, and that says, "Everett's?"
Mr.Jenner. Entered where?
Mrs.Paine. On the 22d of February, and fromthis——
Mr.Jenner. And you have already testified about that?
Mrs.Paine. From this I deduced that was when I first met them.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I turn to March, and I direct your attention to the upper left-hand corner of that card, and it appears to me that in the upper left-hand corner are October 23, then a star, then "LHO" followed by the words "purchase of rifle." Would you explain those entries?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. This was written after.
Mr.Jenner. After?
Mrs.Paine. This was written indeed after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mrs.Paine. I heard on the television that he had purchased a rifle.
Mr.Jenner. When?
Mrs.Paine. I heard it on November 23.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. And went back to the page for March, put a little star on March 20 as being a small square, I couldn't fit in all I wanted to say. I just put in a star and then referring it to the corner of the calendar.
Mr.Jenner. That is to the entry I have read?
Mrs.Paine. Put the star saying "LHO purchase of rifle." Then I thought someone is going to wonder about that, I had better put down the date, and did, but it was a busy day, one of the most in my life and I was off by a month as to what day it was.
Mr.Jenner. That is you made the entry October?
Mrs.Paine. October 23 instead of November.
Mr.Jenner. It should have been November 23?
Mrs.Paine. It should have been November 23.
Mr.Jenner. And the entry of October 23, which should have been November 23, was an entry on your part indicating the date you wrote on the calendar the star followed by "LHO purchase of rifle" and likewise the date you made an entry?
Mrs.Paine. On the 20th.
Mr.Jenner. This is the square having the date March 20?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. I might point out that I didn't know Lee had a middle name until I had occasion to fill out forms for Marina in Parkland Hospital.
Mr.Jenner. That is when you learned that his middle name was Harvey and his initial was H?
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Any other entries in March relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Identify it, please, first as to date.
Mrs.Paine. And this written at the time—it happens to be also on March 20, it says, "Marina," and I judge that this was the time we had scheduled for me to come to her, and I believe it is the date referred to in one of the letters as "until the 20th."
Mr.Jenner. You have already testified about this incident?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Any others?
Mrs.Paine. Not for the month of March.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, dropping down on that same page to the calendar for April, are there any entries relating to the Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Written at the time there is an entry for Tuesday, April 2, "Marina and Lee, dinner" and it looks like "7 o'clock" above the word "dinner." That has been testified to.
Mr.Jenner. You have testified about that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. Then there is an entranceon——
Mr.Jenner. An entry?
Mrs.Paine. An entry, yes, sorry; on April 8 where Marina's name appears, this time written in Russian.
Mr.Jenner. You have testified about that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, and there is a similar entrance for the 10th of April with an arrow.
Mr.Jenner. Entry, you mean again?
Mrs.Paine. I am sorry, an entry pushing it over to the 11th, which would indicate to me that the actual meeting took place on the 11th.