Mrs.Paine. None that I saw him read.
Mr.Jenner. You have told us all you can recall about Oswald's treatment of Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And any conversations you had with him on the subject?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever discuss or did she ever discuss the matter of his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mrs.Paine. That was never mentioned.
Mr.Jenner. By either she or him?
Mrs.Paine. That is right. Not by either one.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of some of that, were you? You were aware of the fact that he was first honorably discharged and then when he reached Russia and attempted todefect——
Mrs.Paine. Only through reading the paper after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. All I am seeking is, you were aware of the incident at the time that you met the Oswalds?
Mrs.Paine. No; I was aware that he had gone to Russia, but not that he had received an unsatisfactory discharge, whatever the word is.
Mr.Jenner. When did you first learn of that?
Mrs.Paine. From the newspaper after the assassination. Undesirable, the word is.
Mr.Jenner. Undesirable discharge. Did he ever speak of Governor Connally?
Mrs.Paine. Never, to my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Did she?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he ever speak or—well, did he ever speak in your presence of his dreams or aspirations?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Either for himself individually or for his family?
Mrs.Paine. No; he didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us everything about her dreams and aspirations for herself and her family that you can now recall?
Mrs.Paine. I don't believe I have said that she related to me that she would like some day to have her own home and her own furniture.
Mr.Jenner. I think you told us that this morning.
Mrs.Paine. It appears in the Look article, but I don't think I mentioned it.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes; speaking of articles, at any time during the meetingyou had with her on March 9, was anything said about magazine articles—let us say—did you discuss the Life article with her?
Mrs.Paine. We discussed the recent Time cover issue, on which Marina appeared.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, I see. What was said on that score?
Mrs.Paine. She thought it was misleading.
Mr.Jenner. That the article itself was misleading?
Mrs.Paine. Further, she thought it was unkind to her.
Mr.Jenner. Unkind in the sense that it was inaccurately unkind or that some things were recounted she thought ought not to have been recounted?
Mrs.Paine. Inaccurately unkind. And she said something to the effect of judging that the American people or at least portions of the press would have to look that way upon the wife of an accused assassin. With which I disagreed.
Mr.Jenner. Well, what did you say?
Mrs.Paine. I said I thought that was Time Magazine in particular, and had nothing to do with the views of the populace in general, I said I thought that was better reflected by the letters that she had gotten from a great many thoughtful and concerned people who had written to her of their sympathy and support.
Mr.Jenner. Did she respond to that comment on your part?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall any particular thing she said.
Mr.Jenner. Did she evidence any feeling or reaction in your meeting on March 9 to the generosity of Americans who had made these contributions voluntarily?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she did, particularly in response to a comment I made.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us that.
Mrs.Paine. We had been talking about the lawyer and business manager whom she is trying to fire.
Mr.Jenner. That is Mr. Thorne and Mr. Martin?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and I said she has seen the range of kind of people in America—one side the many generous people who sent her thoughtful notes and small checks to help her in her financial difficulty, and on the other side the wolves who wanted to gain money from this situation for themselves. And she concurred in that.
Mr.Jenner. She was aware of that distinction?
Did she indicate an awareness of that?
Mrs.Paine. She thought that was an apt description; yes. I felt that she thought that.
Mr.Jenner. Now, have you told us everything you can recall about Lee Oswald's ability to drive an automobile and operate an automobile, and your efforts to improve that driving capacity, and his efforts to obtain a driver's license? Is there anything at all now that you can recall that you have not told us?
Mrs.Paine. There isn't anything at all.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any conversation any time with respect to Lee Oswald himself returning to Russia, as distinguished from Marina being returned to Russia?
Mrs.Paine. There was no conversation of any sort nor any implication of that to me at any time.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion at any time on the subject of his desiring to obtain or having obtained a passport to Russia in the summer of 1963 or any other time?
Mrs.Paine. There was no discussion of this at any time in my presence.
Mr.Jenner. And were you aware at any time prior to November 23, 1963, that he had obtained or had applied for a passport?
Mrs.Paine. No; and I wasn't aware until later, in fact.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us everything now on the subject of Lee Oswald's efforts with respect to Marina returning to Russia?
Mrs.Paine. All that I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us everything that you can recall respecting President Kennedy and Mrs. Kennedy and any comments or observations onthe part of either Lee Oswald or Marina Oswald with respect to the Kennedys?
Mrs.Paine. I have related all my recollections.
Mr.Jenner. Have you related all your recollections respecting the attitude of either of them toward the Government of the United States?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything you now recall in addition to what you have testified to with respect to the connection of either of them with or contacts, rather than connection—of either of them with the Communist Party in the United States?
Mrs.Paine. I was not aware of any contact by either of them with the Communist Party in the United States.
Mr.Jenner. And the same question with respect to the Socialist Workers Party.
Mrs.Paine. Nor was I aware of any such contact.
Mr.Jenner. Would you now give us your impression of Lee Oswald's personality? Was he a person who sought friends, was he a man who sought his own comfort, his own consolation?
I am just trying to illustrate what I am getting at. Was he a man who, to use the vernacular, was a loner? Do you know what I mean by that?
Mrs.Paine. I have heard the word used a great deal.
Mr.Jenner. A man who preferred his own company, or at least appears to prefer his own company, and does not seek out others, does not seek to make friends, or even has an aversion to the making of friends, that he is reticent, retiring.
Mrs.Paine. I think it was here this morning that I described him as a person whom I thought was fearful of actually making friends, and, therefore, reticent, who did keep to himself in fact a good deal.
But I think he did enjoy talking with other people—at least some of the time. He did watch television a great deal of the total time that he was at my house.
And he would finish the evening meal earlier than the rest of the people at the table and leave to go back to the living room to read or watch television, and not just stay to converse. He would eat to be fed rather than as a social event.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Just to make sure we have the record clear on this—because it is of interest in other sections of this investigation—except for the one or two instances you have related, his habit was to remain in your home the entire weekend whenever he visited?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any occasions in which he related or recounted, or she, of his having made any friendships in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. He never mentioned anyone he knew.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about what he did after hours, after work hours in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. Only the reference I have already related, of having been to the National Indignation Committee meeting.
Mr.Jenner. That was the only occasion? What was your impression of what he did, from all you heard and saw in your home when he was there, or any conversations you had with Marina, as to how he occupied his time after work hours, during the week when he remained in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. My impression, insofar as I have one, is that he spent evenings at his room, and he had mentioned, as I have said, that the room he had moved to had television privileges, and I, therefore, guessed that he made use of that opportunity.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the impression, or what impression did you have on this score—as to whether he was a man who had—who somewhat lacked confidence in himself, or might have been resentful that he was not generally accepted as a man of capacity?
Mrs.Paine. I think he had a combination of a lack of confidence in himself and a mistaken, as I have said, overblown impression of himself, these operating at the same time.
I think he felt that he wanted more skilled work than he was doing at theSchool Book Depository. But the major impression I carry about his feeling of work at the School Book Depository was that it was income, and he was glad to have it.
I recall Marina's saying that Lee Oswald looked upon his brother Robert as a fool in that he was primarily interested in his home and family and that his interests in the world didn't really step beyond that. Marina commented then herself on this, and said she thought those were very legitimate interests.
Mr.Jenner. In his presence?
Mrs.Paine. No; not in his presence. She was telling me what Lee had said when he was not there.
Mr.Jenner. What is your impression of Robert Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Well, as I have testified, I have very little impression of him, having only met him twice. I might add to that that he seems a nice guy, as far as I can see—fairly regular, plain person. But that is my guess. I cannot say I have a clear impression of my own.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall an occasion when Marina had a conversation with Mrs. Gravitis?
Mrs.Paine. By telephone. Oh, no; we went over one time, I think.
Mr.Jenner. And there was a conversation that went back and forth about their life in the United States up to that point?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; some of that conversation went back and forth faster than I could follow it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, do you recall an incident in the course of that conversation in which Mrs. Gravitis made a remark that anyone could get work in that locality, and that there was plenty of construction work going on, to which Marina responded that construction work was beneath the dignity of her husband?
Mrs.Paine. No; I recall a conversation of this nature, or you have just recalled it to me, that Mrs. Gravitis thought that jobs were available if you were willing to do the work. I don't recall just what Marina's reply was. I do recall her saying that he found his work at the Minsk factory more physically heavy than he was easily able to handle, and the reference to—I don't recall her objection to the mention of construction, but if there was one I would guess it was more this nature, than indicating being above such things.
Mr.Jenner. That he might find heavy construction work or construction work generally physically difficult?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; this from my recollection of what she said about the Minsk job, not from my recollection of this conversation.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall during the course of that conversation some comments in which Marina implied that when they were in Fort Worth, at least, that, arising out of her experience there, that both of them rather did not want further contact with the people in Fort Worth because her husband Lee did not agree with them personality wise?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall anything of that nature.
Mr.Jenner. Do you ever recall her saying during the course of that conversation that her husband was an idealist?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall that, either. I have been trying to recall whether the name of Peter Gregory came up in any conversation with Marina. I have earlier testified today that it was my impression that I had not heard his name until the 22d of November. I have a vague impression that he was mentioned, or that this name was known to me. But it is very hard for me to get a hold of.
Mr.Jenner. To recall, you mean?
Mrs.Paine. To recall; yes. At some point, and it might have been that afternoon of the 22d, or it might have been earlier, there was a conversation which has left me with the clear impression that Marina admired and thought highly of Peter Gregory.
Mr.Jenner. Peter is the father or the son?
Mrs.Paine. Peter is the father. But, as I say, my recollection is vague on this, and I don't know when that conversation might have taken place.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever say to your sister that you were of the opinion that Lee Oswald was a Communist?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Does the group known as the Women's International League for Peace and Democracy—is that a group with which you are familiar?
Mrs.Paine. I have heard the name. I can't recall whether I have ever joined or not. I wouldn't think so. But I just don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Your best recollection at the moment is that you cannot recall having had any contact with that group?
Mrs.Paine. Except possibly some literature.
Mr.Jenner. Between the 1st and the 5th of November 1963, did you make any effort to obtain the address of Lee Oswald in Dallas?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. How tall are you, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Around 5 feet 10 inches.
Mr.Jenner. I will ask you this general question. I take it, Mrs. Paine, that your study of and interest in the Russian language did not emanate in any degree from any interest on your part in associating yourself with any activities which were in turn to be associated with Russia and the Communist Party or Communist interests.
Mrs.Paine. It certainly did not stem from any such interest.
Mr.Jenner. And your continued pursuit of it does not stem from any such motivation?
Mrs.Paine. No; it does not.
Mr.Jenner. I think I have asked you this, but I want to make sure it is in the record. You are a pacificist?
Mrs.Paine. I consider myself such. I don't like to consider myself as rigidly adhering to any particular doctrine. I believe in appraising a situation and determining my own action in terms of that particular situation, and not making a rigid or blanket philosophy dictate my behavior.
Mr.Jenner. But you are opposed to violence?
Mrs.Paine. I am.
Mr.Jenner. Whether it be violence for the overthrow of a government, or a chink in the government, or physical violence of any kind or character?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I consider it to be—violence to be—always harmful to the values I believe in, and just reserve the right to, as I have said, appraise each situation in the light of that initial belief.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you have read a number of newspaper articles and also various magazine articles dealing with the tragedy of November 22, 1963, and the Oswalds, and even of yourself. Do you have an overall reaction of any kind to those articles and newspaper stories, particularly with respect to their accuracy, you knowing what you do as to what the actual facts were and are?
Mrs.Paine. There are several things I might say in reply to that.
First, I have thought about someday teaching a course in high school on the subject of newspaper and magazine accuracy, using this particular story of the assassination of President Kennedy as source material.
I have been impressed with both the inaccuracy of things I have read and my inability to judge inaccuracy when they do not—when the story does not refer to things I personally know about.
On the whole, my feeling has been that the press has been pretty accurate in reporting what I have said. I have by no means seen all of what was reported of what I said.
I might say in this connection, but in a slightly different department, that you will see a large stack of newspapers on a table in my house when you come. They represent the newspapers I have notyet——
Mr.Jenner. Perused?
Mrs.Paine. More than that—not yet found courage enough to read. They are the newspapers of late November and of December. And while I have tried to read them, I usually end crying, and so I have not gotten very far.
I might say, just to be perfectly clear, that my problem is my grief over the death of the President. That is what brings me to tears—much more than my own personal touch with the story—although this just makes more poignant my grief.
Mr.Jenner. I will read some listings that appeared in Lee Oswald's memorandum or diary or address book, and ask you whether they were mentioned during the period of your acquaintance with the Oswalds, or whether you mighthave heard about them otherwise. The Russ.-Amer. Citizenship Club, 2730 Snyder Avenue.
Mrs.Paine. I have never heard of the organization, and I am not certain where such a street might be.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I am not, either. I am just reading all of the entry there is in the diary.
Mrs.Paine. And I am to simply say whether it rings any bell?
Mr.Jenner. That is right. Russ. Language School, 1212 Spruce.
Mrs.Paine. I know the Spruce Street is in Philadelphia, but, otherwise, that rings no bell.
Mr.Jenner. Russian Lan., and then Trn.—216 South 20th.
Mrs.Paine. I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. I assume that means Russianlanguage——
Mrs.Paine. Training?
Mr.Jenner. Trn.
Mrs.Paine. Probably. It is not familiar to me.
Mr.Jenner. Next, Russ. Groth. Hos. Organ.
Mrs.Paine. Could it be hospitality?
Mr.Jenner. It might be. I will read it in full. Russ. Groth. Hosp. Organ, 1733 Spring.
Mrs.Paine. This organization is not familiar to me.
May I say each street appears in Philadelphia. In other words, Snyder, I recall as being in Philadelphia, and Spring is.
Mr.Jenner. This is Spruce.
Mrs.Paine. Spruce was the first one I recall. The last you mentioned was Spring; is that right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. None of those entries awakens anything in your mind in any respect?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. During these weekends in the fall period, when Marina was living with you, I take it your husband visited at your home?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did he visit on other than weekends?
Mrs.Paine. Occasionally. It seems to me he often came on Tuesday evening. And then he came on Friday, and sometimes on Sunday afternoon, as I have testified.
Mr.Jenner. He would visit Friday evening and then return to his quarters. And he would visit reasonably often on Sunday and return to his quarters?
Mrs.Paine. Every now and then on Sunday, I would say. And then sometimes during the week on a Tuesday or Wednesday.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, if you had become aware prior to November 22 of the fact, if it be a fact, that there was a rifle in the blanket wrapped package on the floor of your garage, what do you think now you would have done?
Mrs.Paine. I can say certainly I would not have wanted it there.
And that my pacifist feelings would have entered into my consideration of the subject. I cannot say certainly what I would have done, of course. And, as I have described myself and my beliefs, I like to consider the situation that I am in and react according to that situation, rather than to have doctrine or rigid belief.
I can certainly say this. I would have asked that it be entirely out of reach of children or out of sight of children.
Mr.Jenner. Well, when the FBI agent interviewed you on November 1, had you known of the existence of the rifle on the floor of the garage, what is your present thought as to what you might have done with respect to advising the FBI of its existence?
Mrs.Paine. I would seriously doubt that I would have considered it of significance to the FBI. I know that a great many people in Texas go deer hunting. As one of the FBI agents said to me after the assassination, he surmised that every other house in the street had a rifle, a deer rifle.
I would have simply considered this was offensive to me, but of no consequence or interest to them.
Mr.Jenner. You see what I am getting at. Would the existence of yourknowledge of the rifle on the floor of your garage, connected with Lee Oswald's history as you knew it up to that point, and some of the suspicions that you voiced in your testimony with respect to Lee Oswald, have led you to be apprehensive out of the ordinary as to the existence of that rifle on the floor of your garage?
Mrs.Paine. I don't believe I would have assumed that this rifle was for any other purpose than deer hunting.
Mr.Jenner. Did the FBI, any of the FBI agents inquire of you prior to November 22, 1963, as to whether there were any firearms in and about your home?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did any FBI agent inquire of you as to whether you thought there was any suspicious—anything suspicious about Lee Harvey Oswald that caused you any concern with respect to the safety of the Government of the United States or any individual in it, in that Government?
Mrs.Paine. No; they made no such inquiry.
Mr.Jenner. And I would repeat this line of questioning with respect to Marina as well as Lee. Would your answers be the same if I did?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; they would be the same.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, Marina testified of her impression that when Lee returned to Dallas, and then to your home on the 4th of October 1963, that he—when he came to your home he had a valise or a suitcase.
Mrs.Paine. Marina testified, did you say?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. What impression do you have in that respect?
I realize that when you reached your home he was out on the front lawn.
Mrs.Paine. On what day?
Mr.Jenner. Fourth of October 1963.
Mrs.Paine. No. He arrived at my home before I did on the 4th of October.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I said that.
Mrs.Paine. But it was on the 21st of November that he was out on the front lawn when I arrived. My recollection isthat——
Mr.Jenner. Please. I am referring back to the time that he came from Dallas initially. That was the 4th of October.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any recollection as to any luggage of any kind or character that he might or did bring with him on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. None whatsoever. Did you ever see him take any luggage out of your home anytime after he had come to your home on October 4?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. And, as I believe I have testified, it is my impression that I took him to the bus station in Irving on the 7th of October, and then he carried both shirts over his arm freshly ironed, and this green zipper bag. But this is my impression.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, at no time from October—including October 4 to November 22 did you see him have in his possession any luggage other than the green zipper bag?
Mrs.Paine. That he was carrying?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. My statement is correct?
Mrs.Paine. I have no recollection of any other kind of luggage being used by him.
Mr.Jenner. Did the subject of abortion—was the subject of abortion ever one discussed between you and Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. And I think I have so testified. When—part of our first meeting, as we talked in the park, or close to the first meeting, after having left her apartment in March, and walked to the park—she told me that she was going to have a baby, and she said that she didn't believe in abortion.
Mr.Jenner. Is that when the discussion occurred on birth control?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was that discussion on birth control directed towards her avoiding a larger family?
Mrs.Paine. Future pregnancies; yes.
Mr.Jenner. It was devoted solely to that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Representative Ford has left with me some questions. I think probably I might have covered them all.
Would you give us, please, your views with respect to what you understand to be the Russian system or philosophy—that is, I am not seeking your views as to what it is, but as to either your sympathy or empathy or aversion to it.
Mrs.Paine. I am of the opinion that—saying the Russian system is rather a larger statement than saying the Communist system. But it may be that the question was intended to speak about the Communists, or governmental system.
Mr.Jenner. I think that probably is the thrust of Representative Ford's inquiry.
Mrs.Paine. Well, as I have already testified, I dislike deception in any form. I might go on to say that I think the people of Russia on the whole have very little choice about their leaders at electionsor——
Mr.Jenner. It is the antithesis of democracy?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is certainly a dictatorship.
Mr.Jenner. And that is abhorent to you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, then, far from having any sympathy with or admiration for communism or what we might call the Russian system or philosophy, you have an aversion?
Mrs.Paine. I have an aversion.
Mr.Jenner. Have you ever studied Karl Marx?
Mrs.Paine. No; not in the sense of studied. I think one history course in college included a few readings from Karl Marx.
Mr.Jenner. Your readings of Karl Marx's writings have been confined to your work at Antioch College as a student?
Mrs.Paine. Yes. And they were very brief.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever read the Manifesto?
Mrs.Paine. The Communist Manifesto?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. That was part of the same course.
Mr.Jenner. But there, again, your studying of it or reading of it was limited to the college course?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you did not pursue it thereafter?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. And if I asked you the same question with respect to Das Capital, would your answers be the same?
Mrs.Paine. I have seen the size of the book, and I certainly would not want to read it.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, you have not read it?
Mrs.Paine. I have not read it.
Mr.Jenner. Even in connection with a college course?
Mrs.Paine. Even in connection with a college course. I think I would have fudged on that assignment, had it been assigned.
Mr.Jenner. I gather from your testimony you certainly do not consider yourself a Communist.
Mrs.Paine. I certainly do not.
Mr.Jenner. And quite the contrary.
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us what your activities—you are a member of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs.Paine. I am.
Mr.Jenner. What have been your activities in connection with that organization?
Mrs.Paine. Primarily to send in my membership fee each year. I have been a member for some years prior—that is to say, going back to the time prior to my marriage. I have recently, perhaps a year ago, became on the membership committee for the local chapter in Dallas. That chapter, I might say, only just opened a year and a half ago.
Mr.Jenner. And have you, as part of those activities, sought to enlist others to become members of the American Civil Liberties Union?
Mrs.Paine. I have talked to perhaps half a dozen people, to encourage them; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss this organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Have you told us in your testimony up to this moment all of your discussion of that organization with Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have. I call your attention to my testimony of a conversation with Lee over the phone saying that I thought that if he was losing his job because of his political views, that this would be of interest to the Civil Liberties Union.
Mr.Jenner. Did any of those discussions embrace the question of what possible help this organization might be to him if he got into trouble eventually?
Mrs.Paine. My judgment is that he took that statement I have just referred to as an implication of the possibility of help from that organization to him personally.
Mr.Jenner. With reference particularly to the possible need at any time for counsel?
Mrs.Paine. He may have assumed such a thing. My understanding of the Civil Liberties Union is that they are not interested in just defending people, but in defending rights or entering a case where there is doubt that a person's civil liberties have been properly upheld.
Mr.Jenner. Or might be?
Mrs.Paine. Or there might be such doubt; yes. I wouldn't know whether Lee understood that.
Mr.Jenner. At least your discussions with him do not enable you to proceed to the point at which to enable you to voice any opinions in this area or subject than you have now given?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware of the name John Abt before you received the telephone call you testified about from Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No; I had not heard that name.
Mr.Jenner. And, therefore, you never suggested it to Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No; that is right.
Mr.Jenner. You are a modest person, but could you indicate for us how fluent you are or you think you are in the command of the Russian language? Please don't be too modest about it. Be as objective as you can.
Mrs.Paine. It is a very hard thing to describe, but I might start by saying that I have perhaps an 8 or 10-year-old's vocabulary.
Mr.Jenner. You are using as an example the vocabulary of a native Russian citizen of the age of 8 to 10 years old?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do not have that much fluency. If the subject I am talking about is something in which I have developed a vocabulary—and these subjects are mostly in terms of home or the things that one does—then I can proceed with an ability to convey my meaning. If it gets into anything technical which would use terms such as insurance or taxes, I have to look it up. I approach any writing of a letter with some dread, as it is difficult for me. I might say in this connection that I presume to teach Russian, not because I am fluent, but because I think my pronunciation is particularly good for a nonnative, and because I have gone the route of the beginning student and know how to do this, and have thought a great deal about what helps a person to learn. I would not presume to teach English to people who didn't know the language, though I am fluent in it.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; you are.
You used a 10-year-old comparison as to vocabulary. What would you say as to your Russian grammar—that is, command of the technicalities of grammar? Would it be superior to an 8-to 10-year-old?
Mrs.Paine. Myvocabulary——
Mr.Jenner. I mean sentence construction.
Mrs.Paine. An 8-to 10-year-old would do better than I do in actual conversation, but would not be able to give you the names of parts of speech as I canin Russian. I have a book knowledge of grammar in Russian. But this doesn't prevent me from making more mistakes than an 8-or 10-year-old would make if he grew up native to the language—many more mistakes.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that is true of your writing—that is, when you compose a letter?
Mrs.Paine. My writing would be with fewer mistakes, because I can think about it more in putting it down, but still very many mistakes occur in it.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say your fluency in the command of the Russian language as of the time you first met the Oswalds in February of 1963 was comparably about the same as your fluency with that language now?
Mrs.Paine. I have improved, particularly over the period of 2 months that Marina was at my home—I have improved my ability to converse, and certainly increased my vocabulary very markedly.
Mr.Jenner. Your experience with Marina has served to improve your command both of vocabulary and of the use of the language generally?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. How fluent was—I will put it this way. How would you judge the command of Lee Oswald of the Russian language, both as to vocabulary and as to sentence construction, and grammar generally?
Mrs.Paine. He had a larger vocabulary than I do in Russian. He had less understanding of the grammar, and considerably less regard for it.
Mr.Jenner. He was not sensitive to the delicacies of the language?
Mrs.Paine. He didn't seem to care whether he was speaking it right or not, whereas I care a great deal. He did read—he certainly subscribed to the things that I have described. And my impression is that he did read them some, and that he did not shy away from reading a Russian newspaper as I do. I find newspaper reading still very hard, and magazines, also. I have to do a great deal of dictionary work to get the full meaning of a magazine or newspaper article.
Mr.Jenner. Do you think that is because you are a sensitive perfectionist as far as the language is concerned? You wish to read it and use it in its finest sense, and you avoid what I would call, for example, pigeon English use of Russian?
Mrs.Paine. I would rather communicate than avoid pigeon use, and I have to use broken Russian to communicate. In reading, I would say what I have described as my reading—it is just that I don't have a very large vocabulary—not that I want to understand every nuance of the words that I am reading. I just can't get the meaning reading it off.
Mr.Jenner. Yet you found that Lee was inclined to plunge ahead, as near as you can tell?
Mrs.Paine. I gathered so.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina ever say anything about Lee Oswald's command of the Russian language, or his use of it?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she did. Let me preface my answer by saying she did not correct him, or at least not very often. She commented at one time in the fall, after Lee came to the house on a Friday, that his Russian was getting worse, whereas mine was getting better, so that I spoke better than he did now. It embarrassed me, is the only reason I recall her saying it.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say it in his presence?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she did. That is why I was embarrassed. I did not know whether it was correct or not, and she had intended it as a compliment, but it was at the same time unkind to him. So this is why I was embarrassed.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us everything you learned about Oswald's sojourn in Russia, first from direct statements you heard him make—and this will be in addition to anything you have already told us.
Mrs.Paine. I can't recall anything that hasn't appeared in my testimony. And there is very little that has appeared in my testimony.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I appreciate that. Did he ever say anything about—I think you did testify a little bit about this yesterday—his efforts to obtain a passport to return to the United Slates, and his difficulties in that connection?
Mrs.Paine. My recollection is that it was she who told me of this.
Mr.Jenner. And she rather than Lee?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Calling upon your recollection, is there anything you have not testified to on that particularsubject——
Mrs.Paine. Of things he had told me himself?
Mr.Jenner. That is right. That emanated from him.
Mrs.Paine. I don't think of anything.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I will then ask you the same question as to Marina—that is, tell us everything else you can think of that you have not already told us that you learned about Lee Oswald's sojourn in Russia, that you might have learned through Marina.
Mrs.Paine. Well, I did learn that they applied for a passport for all of them, that it was a long time coming—no particular length of time mentioned. That they went to Moscow first and then by train, I gather, to Holland, and then by boat to New York City, stayed there a day or less, and came directly to Fort Worth. She mentioned to me, as I testified, that they had borrowed money for the payment of their steamship passage.
Mr.Jenner. Borrowed it from the State Department?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall that she mentioned from whom. Just that they had borrowed it and paid it back. She said that Lee had an apartment by himself in Minsk, which was unusual.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say it was unusual?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she said it was unusual. That, in fact, it caused a little bit of resentment from those who didn't have so much privacy. And I gather that she moved into it after they were married.
Mr.Jenner. That is a fact, at least according to her testimony.
Mrs.Paine. I have spoken to some extent of her aunt and uncle—that she lived there. Is this relevant to your question?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; it is relevant to Representative Ford's question, which I ghosted to you.
Mrs.Paine. She liked her aunt very much, and commented to me several times that it was interesting that this particular aunt was no blood relation at all—it was the uncle that was the blood relation. But that this aunt was her favorite aunt. And they had many good conversations. Marina would go out on a date, and then come back and tell the aunt all about it. Marina commented that the aunt did not work, which she also said was unusual.
Mr.Jenner. Unusual in what sense?
Mrs.Paine. That most women in Russia both did work and had to financially.
Mr.Jenner. Was that—did you infer from that that her uncle had a position in Russia that enabled him to supply funds so that his wife did not have to work?
Mrs.Paine. That was the impression it left me with, yes.
She also said of her aunt that her aunt kept her floors spotless, and her whole house beautiful all the time. You want all the recollections I have of their time in Minsk?
Mr.Jenner. Anywhere in Russia.
Mrs.Paine. Including her family background?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Well, I knew because I had filled out forms for her at Parkland Hospital that she was born at Archangel. From conversation with her, I know she was born 2 months early.
Mr.Jenner. She was a 7-month baby, somewhat premature?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and her mother had bundled her up in great swaths of clothing to bring her from Archangel to Leningrad, when she was a tiny baby. I learned that the grandmother had been with her, I judge later in Archangel, when they lived there again, and was part of her upbringing. Her mother had some medical job—I never did understand.
Mr.Jenner. You mean job in the sense of position?
Mrs.Paine. Position. I never did understand how responsible this was—whether she was a medical doctor or what her position was. Marina described the time when her mother died of cancer, and that also her grandmother died before the year was out of cancer, also.
Mr.Jenner. Did she ever speak of her father?
Mrs.Paine. She said that her father had died when she was very tiny, that she did not know her father, that she was raised by her mother and stepfather, and she did not know until it came out from something a neighbor let drop, when she was already in her early teens, that this man she thought to be her father was not in fact her father but her stepfather. This came as a shock to her. I knew that she had a younger brother and sister, Tatyana, I think, Tanya would be the diminutive. I don't recall her brother's name. It is my impression that she liked Leningrad, was proud of it.
Mr.Jenner. Did she ever say why she went from Leningrad to Minsk, or the circumstances under which—which surrounded her going from Leningrad to Minsk?
Mrs.Paine. No; she never did. She did say that some people commented to her that it was strange to be leaving Leningrad, because there were many people who wanted to work in Leningrad who evidently didn't have the necessary priority or permission to get into the city to work there. She having been brought up there had the right to live there and work there. But this was the first I knew that you could not just move from one city to another in Russia if you wanted to look for work.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a discussion with her from time to time about the fact that you could move about in Russia only by permission.
Mrs.Paine. Well, she mentioned—and I think I have said so—that you don't go to a different city in Russia without its being known. You have to register immediately upon coming to the city, show all your papers, and then the government assigns you your quarters—hotel or apartment or any room. You cannot get a place to spend the night if you don't sign in. Which is certainly a far cry from our situation in this country.
Mr.Jenner. Did she indicate any reaction on her part to the difference—that difference in America as compared with Russia?
Mrs.Paine. It was not overtly stated. She did make clear to me that she thought the consumer goods here were superior to those in Russia. She said that very likely this was in part due to the fact that people are not sure of their jobs. In Russia you can do a bad job and still remain employed; whereas here she said a person had to produce good work or they didn't stay on the job.
Mr.Jenner. This was a comment on her part on the difference in the system? Russia from that in the United States?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did she indicate any reaction to that?
Mrs.Paine. She thought the system here produced much better goods, and she was pleased with that. She also commented that things were much more available in this country than they were in Russia. She was impressed, for instance, with the fact that my neighbor offered to loan things for the baby, and my friend Mrs. Craig offered to loan things for the baby. She said that in Russia people were not so sure that they could replace things that they had loaned or given away. You could not go to the store when you needed to have baby clothing and necessarily find it there. So there was much less—for that reason, and others—there was much less loaning and sharing of things than she found here.
Mr.Jenner. Did she say anything about the period when Lee was hospitalized in Russia?
Mrs.Paine. No; I don't recall it.
Mr.Jenner. And her visiting him every day?
Mrs.Paine. I have no clear recollection. I do, of course, recall her description of her own pregnancy, and the birth of June in the Minsk hospital. That Lee was in the hospital rings very faintly. I cannot think of anything he was in there for. I have completely forgotten any reference to it—I am not sure I remember now.
Mr.Jenner. Have we exhausted you on that subject?
Mrs.Paine. I am exhausted.
Mr.Jenner. What is your reaction on the subject of Marina's reaction in turn to her husband? Did she love him? What was her opinion of him?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I think it has already appeared pretty thoroughly in mytestimony that she both asked herself did she love him and did he love her, and proceeded with the feeling that she had committed herself to this, and would try to do her best for the marriage—not without occasionally wondering whether this marriage would last, or should.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any opinion or reaction on this subject—as to whether she had perhaps at times contributed to some degree or had been at fault to some degree in provoking what outbursts there were on Lee's part and his sometimes crudeness and abruptness with respect to her?
Mrs.Paine. Well, as I think I have testified, she didn't try, or certainly did not try all the time, to avoid a confrontation or an argument or disagreement. But she did argue with him and uphold her own views, rather more forcefully, at least in her skill in the language, than Lee, on some occasions. I would say that if he had been a more relaxed and easy-going person, somebody that was not so touchy, that her behavior would not have been any difficulty to the marriage. Rather it was a healthy thing.
Mr.Jenner. There is an opinion at large, at least among some of us here in the United States who have pursued Russian literature and published works on the Russian people and the Russian character, that there is a tendency or an element on the part of the Russian to exaggerate and to present the bizzare. Do you have any feeling or opinion on that subject with respect to Marina Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No; I do think that there is such a thing as a personality formed by the Russian background, and it is a different influence, but also operating, the Soviet system. But it is hard for me to describe what that is. And I would not have included the statement you just made of attempting to exaggerate or bizzare—is that the way you put it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. Rather I would say it is a moodiness and a quality of enigma. Not the open-faced, glad-handed Texan or frontier American, but much more subtle. And I also do think that there is much more tendencies to—among Russian emigrés to suspect underlying motives, and things going on beneath the surface that are not evident on the face of the situation, a tendency among them more than among Americans.
Mr.Jenner. Do you find in Marina any of these tendencies you now relate?
Mrs.Paine. I find her moody. I would say she was contrary to this that I have described, of some Russian people, of a quality of suspecting things going on under the surface.
I found this quality rather in the head of the Russian school at Middlebury, who picked up my tape recorder and took it to his office one time when I had left it in the hall. He evidently thought I had bad use intended for it.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that—give us your opinion as to Marina's sense of the truth, of telling the truth, having a feeling of the truth?
Mrs.Paine. That is difficult to say, because what questions I have about her telling of the truth have all arisen since I was with her personally.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I wish your opinion now, as of this time.
Mrs.Paine. You wish my opinion now?
It is my opinion that this sense of privacy that I have described interferes with her being absolutely frank about the situation, and that she may, because of this lack of frankness, describe a situation in a way that is misleading, not directly false—but misleads the hearer. And this, I would say, not always in conscious design, but some of it happening quite without preplanned intent. I conclude that from the fact that I think she must have known that Lee had been to Mexico, judging from the materials I have already described were picked up by Mr. Odum and myself from the dresser drawer.
Mr.Jenner. From that, you conclude what?
Mrs.Paine. Well, that she was willing to mislead by implication. And I would judge that she knew about the application for a passport, and this was never mentioned. All the times that she mentioned that she might have to go back to Russia, the implication was that she alone was going back. And this doesn't appear to have been fully the case.
Mr.Jenner. What leads you to say that—it wasn't fully the case in what sense?
Mrs.Paine. Well, in the sense that Lee had at least applied for a passport to get him to Russia.
Mr.Jenner. You are rationalizing from the fact that you know now that he applied for a passport?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. You conclude from that that she must have known of that application and the fact that he received it?
Mrs.Paine. And, of course, that is rationalization.
Mr.Jenner. That is the only basis on which you make that statement? That is what I am getting at.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I think that is all.
Mr.Jenner. What is your opinion as to whether Marina Oswald would tell the truth and the whole truth under oath in response to questions put to her?
Mrs.Paine. I would expect that she would make a dedicated attempt to tell the truth. Just looking at the amount of time I have testified, as opposed to the amount of time she testified, relative to the amount of things she knows and the amount of material that I have that is of any use to the Commission, she could not have yet told the whole truth, just in terms of time.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that may be affected—of course, you must understand—by the questions put to her and the subjects that were opened on her examination.
Mrs.Paine. Right.
Mr.Jenner. But subject to that, it is your feeling that she—there isa——
Mrs.Paine. Subject to that, I really cannot answer. I don't know what her attitude is towards her situation, which is a rather remarkable one in this case. I would guess that it is helpful to her telling the whole truth that Lee is now dead. I might say I am affected in that judgment by having been present when she could not positively identify her husband's—what was thought to be his rifle at the police station, whereas I read—and perhaps it is not so—but I read that she positively identified it here at the Commission.
Mr.Jenner. But you were present when she, in your presence, was unable to identify with reasonable certainty that the weapon exhibited to her was her husband's rifle?
Mrs.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. And you attribute that largely to the fact that his now being deceased has in her mind released her, so that she may without fear of implicating him, were he alive, to speak fully her opinions on subjects such as that?
Mrs.Paine. That would be my opinion.
Mr.Jenner. I see. Did she ever express any fear of Lee Oswald?
Mrs.Paine. No; she never did.
Mr.Jenner. Did she ever express to you any fear that he might do something, and I use the vernacular again, crazy?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I think we have covered this, but to be sure, did she ever mention to you that Lee had anything to do with the Walker incident?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. That she suspected it?
Mrs.Paine. Absolutely nothing.
Mr.Jenner. Now, since you are now aware of what has come out with respect to that, does that also affect your opinion as to her sense of truth or sense of frankness?
Mrs.Paine. Well, it affects my opinion on how close we were as friends. I never asked her to be frank or discuss such a subject, of course, because I would not have known to bring it up. Not telling me about something is quite different from telling me something that is misleading to the whole truth of the situation.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, are you seeking to imply that her failure to mention the General Walker incident and Lee Harvey Oswald part in it, if he had any part, that that was understandable to you—that would be understandable as of that time, having in mind your relations with her?
Mrs.Paine. No; it is not understandable to me. I feel it is only explained—the only explanation I can find, when I look for one, is that she did not feel terribly close to me, or did not know just what I would do with such information. She may well have suspected that I would feel it necessary to take immediateaction, and I would have felt that necessary if I had known this. She may have felt that Lee would not make such an attempt again, and that there was therefore no need to bring it up. I don't know whether your accounts of what the FBI has put down of their conversations with me include one meeting with Bardwell Odum, right after the newspapers had indicated something of a shot at Walker, before there was any corroborative details, such as the content of a note.
I was very depressed by the feeling that here—not to me, but to someone, this man had shown that he was violent and dangerous, and the information had been so close to me and not available to me—and I deeply regretted that I had had no warning of this quality in him.
And I further went on to say that I felt that it was a moral failing on her part not to speak to someone about this, because I thought she would surely realize that this was an irrational and extremely dangerous act on his part—that he needed help and/or confinement.
Mr.Jenner. What is your personal attitude towards the Castro regime?
Mrs.Paine. I have very few opinions about it. I suspect that the press is correct, that it is used as a jumping off ground for people, for Communist deputies going to Central American countries, trying to stir up trouble. That I object to strenuously. That the people of Cuba had Castro as a leader is not of any particular offense to me. I do think that he has rather more popular support than his predecessor.
Mr.Jenner. Batista?
Mrs.Paine. Yes—which is not saying a great deal.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I think Representative Ford might have had more in mind as to whether you share or do not share or have an aversion to what you understand to be the Castro regime.
Mrs.Paine. I think the regime is clearly dictatorial, that it seeks to perpetuate itself, and to do so at all costs; and that I certainly object to.
Mr.Jenner. Now, do you consider the Castro regime as you understand it, that it is liberal or reactionary?
Mrs.Paine. I don't know as I can put a term on it.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any thoughts and assumptions on your part as to what Lee Oswald was doing after Marina returned with you from New Orleans? You have already testified that you thought from what he said about seeking employment in Houston and Philadelphia that he was engaged in that immediately following period in attempting to secure employment in Houston.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the extent of your impression as to that period—that is the period from the time you left on the 23d of September and the time he showed up without advance notice on the 4th of October?