Mrs.Paine. I would certainly hear it.
Mr.Jenner. And does it make enough racket or noise so that it might well awaken you if it's turned on?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; especially that close to morning.
Mr.Jenner. And you were not awakened this morning by any shower?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have a recollection as to whether you noticed, when you performed your own ablutions that morning as to whether the shower had been employed, that is, was the shower curtain moist or wet?
Mrs.Paine. I made no notice such as that.
Mr.Jenner. Is it likely that had the shower been used you would have noticed it?
Mrs.Paine. No; I can't say as it is.
Mr.Jenner. You had, I gather, no sense of his presence that morning and his leavetaking that morning at all until you arose and he was then gone?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. You heard no moving about on his part prior to your awakening?
Mrs.Paine. No moving about on his part at all when I looked when I awoke.
(At this point Counsel Jenner and Agent Howlett took other measurements in the hallway of the Witness Paine.)
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Howlett and I have measured the bathroom and it is 5 feet wide and 8 feet 8 inches long. The hallway running north and south at the entrance to the 2 bedrooms, using the wall instead of the jamb, 9 feet 6 inches long, and 3 feet 4 inches wide.
The living room, which faces on Fifth Street and is to the east of the garage wall and to the west of the hallway, running across to the 2 bedrooms which we have just measured, and which faces out onto Fifth Street, is 13 feet wide by16 feet 8 inches long. Now, Mrs. Paine, I'll stand beside you, if I may, and I am facing toward Fifth Street, am I not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And we are sitting in the dining room portion of the combination kitchen-dining room?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Directly in front of us—I am standing right behind you—on the left is a doorway entering into your living room?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. There is a wall between that wall jamb and another door jamb to the right or west?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that door opens onto what?
Mrs.Paine. It goes into the garage.
Mr.Jenner. Now, John Joe, if you will measure the distance between the outer edge of the door jamb of the living room door and the door jamb of the garage door, however, let's get the outside.
AgentHowlett. It would be 1 foot 2 inches from outside jamb to outside jamb.
Mr.Jenner. So that the spacewest——
Mrs.Paine. That's east, I'm sorry.
Mr.Jenner. The wall spacing and the two door jambs together, separate the two doors and are of the width which has been recited. Now, before I open the door, which you say enters into the garage—by the way, how wide is that?
AgentHowlett. It is a 2-foot 8-inch door.
Mr.Jenner. And how high?
AgentHowlett. It is 6 feet 8½ inches and it would actually be classified as a 6-foot 9-inch door.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, is there a light switch on the dining room wall which lights the light in the garage?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I see a light switch just immediately to the right of the door jamb of the door leading into the garage; what is that switch for?
Mrs.Paine. It lights the light in the dining area.
Mr.Jenner. And on one of the photographs taken by the FBI, that light switch appeared, did it not?
Mrs.Paine. I would expect so.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall that it did?
Mrs.Paine. I don't specifically recall—I recall the shot which included that area.
Mr.Jenner. That light switch, then, John Joe, let us locate it.
AgentHowlett. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor.
Mr.Jenner. It is 4 feet 6 inches from the floor and how many inches to the center of the light switch?
AgentHowlett. It is actually about 6¾ inches to the center of the light switch.
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is that I did see that switch in the FBI photograph.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, when we arrived, what was the condition of the garage door as to whether it was opened or closed? That is, the full door facing onto Fifth Street?
Mrs.Paine. The outside garage door—the large one?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mrs.Paine. It is closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr.Jenner. And the door that is leading into the garage?
Mrs.Paine. Is likewise closed and has been since you arrived.
Mr.Jenner. None of us has been in there, including yourself, since I arrived?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I'm going to open the door and observe that first there is a screen door on the other side of the wall, is there not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Facing the wooden garage door that I have just opened. Now,I have stepped into the garage and would you come over here, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is there a light switch handy to turn the light on in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; there is.
Mr.Jenner. And would you snap it on?
Mrs.Paine. (The witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner and turned on the light.)
Mr.Jenner. And that light switch is immediately to your right as you enter the garage from the dining room area, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And, John Joe, would you measure its height from the floor?
AgentHowlett. It is also 4 feet 6 inches.
Mr.Jenner. And is set with relation to the doorjamb, how many inches?
AgentHowlett. Six and one-half inches.
Mr.Jenner. And that's to the right of the doorjamb as you enter from the dining room area?
AgentHowlett. Right.
Mr.Jenner. So, Mrs. Paine, it is within very easy reach—it's less than a hand's length away, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we have entered the garage. Let's measure the garage in the presence of Mrs. Paine, John Joe, and I will now take one end to the far end of the garage facing onto Fifth Street, and place the tape against the inside facing of the garage door opening out onto Fifth Street. What is the length to the dining room wall?
AgentHowlett. It is 21 feet 8 inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, let's get it across.
AgentHowlett. It is 10 feet 6 inches wide.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, I notice that in the northwest corner of your garage there appears to be a small storage room, I would describe it.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And that small storage room is completely enclosed except for a small opening which does not have a door or cover; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And the storeroom is 4 feet 8 inches wide, measuring from east to west; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
AgentHowlett. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And it is how many feet and inches deep?
AgentHowlett. Three feet one inch deep.
Mr.Jenner. Meaning the distance from the back of the dining room area wall and the outside portion facing of the south wall of the storeroom?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And this storeroom, Mrs. Paine, runs all the way from the floor to the ceiling, does it not, of your garage?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it does.
Mr.Jenner. And I judge—well, John Joe, we might as well measure that while we are at it, with the door open, to the floor of the grass to the ceiling?
AgentHowlett. From the ceiling to the floor of the grass is 8 feet 3 inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we will measure the opening into the storage room. The opening itself is 1 foot 8 inches inside wide, and 5 feet 11 inches tall.
Mrs. Paine, in your testimony last week in referring to the blanket-wrapped package, you located it in two places in your garage, which I will review with you in a moment; could the package at any time have been placed in the storeroom?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I suppose so.
Mr.Jenner. And if placed in the storeroom, it would not have been open to view unless you climbed back in there to see; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; there is nothing I normally get in the storeroom—well, no; that's not strictly so. I hid birthday presents for—my little girl's birthday party was on the 16th of November—in there in the storeroom.
Mr.Jenner. All right, that's an interesting development. When you hid the birthday presents of your daughter, anticipating her fourth birthday on the 16th of November 1963, did you notice at that time the blanket wrapped package in the storeroom?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. And, in secreting those presents would you reasonably, necessarily have noticed that blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom?
Mrs.Paine. I think I would have noticed it.
Mr.Jenner. When did you remove those secreted birthday gifts from that small storeroom?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection some were removed on Friday evening the 15th, and some on Saturday the 16th.
Mr.Jenner. Was the blanket wrapped package which you have described last week, in that storeroom on either of those occasions?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. And would you have noticed the blanket wrapped package in that small storeroom had it been there?
Mrs.Paine. I surely would have.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Agent Howlett has called my attention to the fact that there is an opening in the ceiling of your garage which leads up to, as I see it now, crawl space above the garage which extends, I take it, the length of your house?
Mrs.Paine. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And, John Joe, what is that—2 feet by 2 feet?
AgentHowlett. Roughly—yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Has that crawl space opening been without a cover for some considerable period of time?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall its ever having had a cover.
Mr.Jenner. And did you haveoccasion——
Mrs.Paine. There was a fan in it for a while—is there now?
AgentHowlett. There's an edge of a fan sticking out.
Mrs.Paine. It has been more recently moved over.
AgentHowlett. It's actually 1 foot 9 inches.
Mr.Jenner. Rather than 2 feet by 2 feet. Was that fan in place in the fall of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection it was—yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, however, that that fan is a movable fan?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which you can push up and slide over easily?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Are you able to do it yourself?
Mrs.Paine. I never have.
Mr.Jenner. So, you don't know its heft or weight?
Mrs.Paine. I can lift it from the floor, I know that about it, but I have never tried to lift it with my arms up.
Mr.Jenner. And is it a fan made for that particular spacing?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. Or, is it really a floor fan that you sometimes use in your home itself and then sometimes place over that opening to draw the heat out, I guess it would be, wouldn't it?
Mrs.Paine. It's a portable fan.
Mr.Jenner. It's a portable fan, and is it your recollection that on the morning of the 22d of November that fan straddled the opening in the ceiling?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. You have no recollection one way or the other?
Mrs.Paine. None.
Mr.Jenner. Since it is portable, it might have been moved back and, if moved back, the blanket wrapped package could have been stored up there, correct?
Mrs.Paine. It could have been.
Mr.Jenner. Did you enter that crawl space at any time in the fall of 1963?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. And, in particular, did you examine it on the afternoon of the 22d or any time on the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs.Paine. No; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. When the police came here on the afternoon of November 22, did they climb up and look in the crawl space above the ceiling of your house?
Mrs.Paine. I did not see anyone do that.
Mr.Jenner. I am only asking while you were present—while you were present, did the police look in the storage room we have now described?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection they did.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the length of the garage extends from the Fifth Street side back to your dining room area, does it not?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And the width of the garage runs from the wall of the living room to the wall of the house on the west?
Mrs.Paine. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you please go out in the garage and in our presence put your foot in the spot—and the two places—that you noticed the blanket wrapped package, as you testified last week?
Mrs.Paine. All right.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
The blanket was lying approximately here from about here—in front of the work bench, halfway to the band saw.
Mr.Jenner. Will you listen to me please: We are approximately in the center of the lengthwise plane of the garage and there is on the west wall a work bench. On the work bench is a drill, a South Bend drill, a heavy industrial type drill, with a number of packages, and then underneath the work bench is a small desk—is that a child's desk?
Mrs.Paine. No; a student desk.
Mr.Jenner. And in the knee hole in the center of that desk on the left and right of which are sets of two drawers is what; what is that?
Mrs.Paine. That's an ice chest.
Mr.Jenner. Was that ice chest there on the 22d of November?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is the desk underneath the work bench and is the work bench also—are all these things now in the position they were on November 22d?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, are they in the position they were substantially from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. They are in the same position.
Mr.Jenner. The work bench I have described is at its top 8 feet 1 inch in length and 2 feet 3 inches wide or deep, extending out from the west wall into the garage. It's a good substantial work bench, though it is piled high with various boxes and cartons. Is the top of the work bench in approximately the same condition now as it was on November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. A little fuller.
Mr.Jenner. And is it in approximately, in that respect, the condition it was from October 4, 1963, to and including November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I will now measure the distance east and west from the outside leading edge of the work bench to the east wall of the garage.
AgentHowlett. It's 7 feet 9 inches.
Mr.Jenner. The south edge of the work bench is 8 feet 5 inches from the inner side of the overhead garage door, which is now in place.
There is a band saw to the south of the work bench also against the west wall of the garage. It stands—it looks like a pretty solid piece of equipment and it stands 5 feet 7 inches high from the floor and the band saw, Mrs. Paine, is a solid piece of equipment—metal, that is, resting on the garage floor itself, is it not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. And it is, John Joe, how wide a space?
AgentHowlett. One foot five inches.
Mr.Jenner. It's a powermatic band saw that has an identification plate "Machinery Sales" and the like on it.
The distance from the south edge of the bench to the north edge of the band saw is what, John Joe?
AgentHowlett. Two feet eight inches.
Mr.Jenner. Would you measure off 45 inches on that—we have taken a piece of corrugated box board, measured off 45 inches in length, and I will ask Mrs. Paine to take that piece of corrugated box board and place it in the position in which the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs.Paine. That's it.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, complied with the request of Counsel Jenner.)
Mr.Jenner. Now, may I describe for the record, Mrs. Paine has placed that 45-inch corrugated box board in the position she recalls it was when you first saw it, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. No; that's the second time—it's where it was on November 22.
Mr.Jenner. This is where it was on November 22d and one end is how many inches from the base of the band saw, Mr. Howlett?
AgentHowlett. It's 8 feet from the base of the band saw.
Mr.Jenner. Is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. As I recall—yes.
Mr.Jenner. And, it extends in a northerly direction 45 inches and ends up how many inches north of the south edge of the work bench, Mr. Howlett?
AgentHowlett. One foot eight inches.
Mr.Jenner. And Mrs. Paine has placed that, is that correct, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I'm not sure but it wasn't somewhat more to the north. My recollection is not that clear.
Mr.Jenner. But have you placed it approximately as you can best recall, and that is all we can ask you to do now?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. How many inches is it out from Mr. Howlett, the front of the desk underneath the work bench?
AgentHowlett. The center of it is about 3½ inches.
Mr.Jenner. Don't get the center, because the package was wider than that piece is.
Mrs.Paine. I'll place it where—where the outside edge is—where the outside edge of the package was.
AgentHowlett. The inside edge?
Mr.Jenner. Which do you say is inside?
Mrs.Paine. Let me take more packages—I'm trying to refresh my memory as to where this was. I do recall standing on it, and whether it was when I stood here or here?
Mr.Jenner. When she says, "Here," she is standing, are you not, Mrs. Paine, facing north with your hand on the southeast corner of the work bench?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you are standing rather near to the work bench?
Mrs.Paine. I'm trying to recall where I saw it on the 22d, but anyway, that would be the width of the package between those two boards.
Mr.Jenner. What is the distance from the bottom of the desk underneath the work bench to the nearest edge of the package?
AgentHowlett. Four and one-half inches.
Mr.Jenner. And the distance from the bottom of the desk to the outside edge, or most easterly edge of the package?
AgentHowlett. One foot two and one-half inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, did I ask you, and I just want to make certain, when was it that you observed the blanket-wrapped package on the floor the second time?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I recall the package was on the floor on the 22d, and that it was not the first time I had seen it there, but I cannot answer just when I first saw it in that position—I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Your testimony was, as I recall, that to the best of your recollection the blanket-wrapped package occurred in two places in the garage.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. When you noticed it at any time from the 4th of October to and including the 22d of November 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you have now located it as where you saw it—it will be better for you to tell us where it was located when you first noticed it.
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is—I first noticed it somewhere in the vicinity of the rotary saw.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we have a rotary saw which is pushed up against the east wall of the garage and is located really, on that wall, but between the south edge of the work bench and the north edge of the band saw; am I correct about that?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; that's correct.
Mr.Jenner. And it is a Craftsman saw—it is also a substantial piece of equipment. The saw plane or table is how long?
AgentHowlett. Three feet four inches.
Mr.Jenner. And how wide?
AgentHowlett. One foot nine and one-half inches.
Mr.Jenner. And that stands how many feet from the wall, Mr. Howlett?
AgentHowlett. The saw table is 3 feet 2½ inches.
Mr.Jenner. And the distance from the floor to the top of the saw itself, that is, all of the saw instrument itself?
AgentHowlett. It is 4 feet 7 inches.
Mr.Jenner. And what is the distance of extension of the saw table, measuring from the east wall of the garage to the westerly most portion of the saw table?
AgentHowlett. It is 2 feet 7½ inches.
Mr.Jenner. Have I located that saw, Mrs. Paine, in your presence so that the locations I have given are as you have observed accurate?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The south edge of the saw table is how many feet and inches, Mr. Howlett, from the inside facing of the overhead garage door, which is down in place?
AgentHowlett. It is 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, would you please locate—take the 45-inch package and relocate it where you first saw it?
Mrs.Paine. I don't think there is any point in my doing that—I can't remember whether it went east or west or north or south.
Mr.Jenner. Well, regardless of how it was facing, whether east or west or north or south, where was it when you saw it?
Mrs.Paine. Well, I can recall distinctly that the area between the saw table and the two chests of drawers was filled with boxes of belongings of things that belonged to Lee and Marina Oswald. The package was either under the saw table or out in front of those boxes some way.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I will locate the things you have described.
The saw table, the height of which has been stated into the record, is suspended from the floor by 2 by 4 braces, which angle from the east wall of the garage up to the underside west end of the circular saw table, and except for those two braces running up from the floor and the saw to the underside of the circular saw table, there is nothing underneath there.
Was that the condition in which that space was when you noticed the package on the floor earlier—the first time?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection it was for the most part—it was.
Mr.Jenner. The witness has mentioned two—what do you call those?
Mrs.Paine. Chest of drawers.
Mr.Jenner. They are located 1 foot 6 inches south of the south edge of the saw table. They are themselves how wide?
AgentHowlett. Two feet one inch.
Mr.Jenner. They are 2 feet 1 inch wide and extend out from the joist of the garage wall on the east garage wall how many feet, Mr. Howlett?
AgentHowlett. Two feet five inches.
Mr.Jenner. The south edge of the set of chests, did you say these were?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The south edge of the set of chest of drawers is 2 feet 1 inch to the inside portion of the overhead garage door, which is in place. Now, would you with that description again state where the package was when you first saw it, first was the space you said was filled with the goods and wares of the Oswalds located in the space between the south edge of the saw table and the north edge of the chest of drawers?
Mrs.Paine. With some overlapping of the area of the saw table.
Mr.Jenner. With that in mind, tell us where the blanket-wrapped package was.
Mrs.Paine. I do not have a distinct recollection of where it lay on the floor.
Mr.Jenner. Locate it the best you can.
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection it was partially under the saw table or out towards the front of their boxes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see the blanket-wrapped package upended in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. No.
Mr.Jenner. I notice a ball of string which I have just taken from a box, which is on the surface of the work bench.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You have testified that the blanket-wrapped package was in turn tied or wrapped with string?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. You think perhaps, around in four places?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was the string of the weight and character of that which I have in my hand, that is, this ball of string?
Mrs.Paine. It could have been that weight or it could have been as heavy as this other short piece that's on the floor.
Mr.Jenner. The short piece which Mrs. Paine has picked up and has exhibited to me, we will mark "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 270," and we will cut a piece of the other twine or string and mark that as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 271."
(Materials referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibits Nos. 270 and 271," for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. For the purpose of the record, Mrs. Paine, and John Joe, Exhibit No. 271 is the lighter and thinner of the two pieces of string which the witness has identified, is it not?
AgentHowlett. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. I will state, and will everybody agree with me or disagree with me, if I misstate the facts that it would be utterly impossible to get an automobile into this garage in the condition that it is now, is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. It would be utterly impossible.
Mr.Jenner. And, is its condition now in that sense substantially the same as it was on October 4 and from thence forward through November 22, 1963, Mrs. Paine?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it is.
Mr.Jenner. Now, as I understand it, Mrs. Paine, you, Marina, and the policeman came out into this garage on the afternoon of November 22?
Mrs.Paine. That's right?
Mr.Jenner. Did you lead the procession into the garage, or did Marina, or someone with the policeman?
Mrs.Paine. I recall saying that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage, and I don't recall whether it was a policeman or myself who first entered. I would guess it had been myself.
Mr.Jenner. Had there been some conversation before you entered the garage on the subject of whether Lee Oswald had a rifle and was there a rifle located in the home?
Mrs.Paine. There was no such discussion before we entered the garage.
Mr.Jenner. What was the purpose of your entering the garage on that occasion and the circumstance as to why you entered the garage with the police, and I take it Marina was with you, was she?
Mrs.Paine. Marina followed. They had asked to search—I told them that most of the Oswalds' things were in the garage and some were in the room where Marina was staying.
Mr.Jenner. Now, trying to reconstruct this situation and to stimulate your recollection, would you walk into the garage and tell us as you walk in, what occurred and when the first conversation took place, if any took place, about a weapon in the premises? Would you start back here at the garage entrance?
(At this point the witness complied with the request of Counsel Jenner, entering the garage.)
Mr.Jenner. I take it, Mrs. Paine, you and Marina, and how many policemen were there?
Mrs.Paine. Two or three.
Mr.Jenner. Two or three policemen walked into your garage?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And for what purpose?
Mrs.Paine. To see what was in it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, for you to point out to them where the Oswald things were in your garage?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you entered then and walked east toward the overhead garage door?
Mrs.Paine. That's south instead of east.
Mr.Jenner. That's south, I'm sorry; you are right.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Was that garage door in place on that occasion?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; it was.
Mr.Jenner. The four or five of you, depending on how many policemen there were, walked to the place that you have now heretofore described to us as where the Oswalds' things were located in the main part, however, the blanket wrapped package was not atthat——
Mrs.Paine[interrupting]. We didn't get as far as the area where most of the Oswald things were located.
Mr.Jenner. All right. You got about what—halfway into the garage facing south?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then, what happened?
Mrs.Paine. Then, one of the officers asked me if Lee Oswald had a rifle or weapon, and I said, "No."
Mr.Jenner. This was in the presence of Marina?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And you were then—at that point you were standing where?
Mrs.Paine. I was at that time standing here [indicating].
Mr.Jenner. And would you remain there—Mrs. Paine is now standing at the corner of the—southeast corner of the work bench about a foot away from the work bench; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Go ahead.
Mrs.Paine. The officer asked me if Oswald had a rifle and I answered, "No," to him and he turned to Marina who was standing atthe——
Mr.Jenner. Now, would you move to where Marina was standing?
Mrs.Paine. Right here in the middle ofthis——
Mr.Jenner. I'll get that out of yourway——
Mrs.Paine. Let's just move that across there. She was standing here facing south.
Mr.Jenner. She was facing you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes, she was.
Mr.Jenner. And the witness is now about a foot in from the north end of the work bench and to, necessarily, the east work bench.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She was standing there facing and looking at you?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; she was.
Mr.Jenner. And you in turn—your back was to the overhead garage door, which was in place?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And you were facing north?
Mrs.Paine. Yes—I translated the question, asking Marina if she knew if Lee had a rifle, and she said, "Yes"—she had seen some time previously—seen a rifle which she knew to be his in this roll, which she indicated the blanket roll.
Mr.Jenner. When she said that, did she point to the blanket roll?
Mrs.Paine. She indicated to me in her language. My best recollection is that she did not point, so that I was the one who knew and then translated.
Mr.Jenner. Now, she said she had seen a rifle in the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Which you had already noticed some time prior thereto?
Mrs.Paine. And as she described this, I stepped onto the blanket.
Mr.Jenner. The wrapped package?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; and then translated to the police officers what she had said.
Mr.Jenner. And when you stepped on the blanket wrapped package, did you feel anything hard?
Mrs.Paine. It seemed to me there was something hard in it.
Mr.Jenner. At that time when you stepped on it?
Mrs.Paine. At that time.
Mr.Jenner. Did it seem like something hard in the sense of a rifle or a tent pole or anything as bulky as that?
Mrs.Paine. I think I would say nothing as irregular as a rifle.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, as I recall your testimony, one of the policemen stooped down and picked up the blanket wrapped package about in its center, having in mind its length?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And when he did that, did the blanket remain firm and horizontal?
Mrs.Paine. It wilted.
Mr.Jenner. It drooped?
Mrs.Paine. It folded.
Mr.Jenner. It just folded, and from that you concluded there was nothing in the package?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. In the blanket?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Is it your recollection that the four string wrappings were still on the blanket?
Mrs.Paine. That's my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. And you heard no crinkling of paper or otherwise?
Mrs.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, you testified last week before the Commission that you keep a supply of wrapping paper?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Where do you normally keep it?
Mrs.Paine. (At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, left the area of the garage and returned to the kitchen-dining room area.) I keep it as I explained at the Commission hearings, in the bottom drawer of a large secretary desk in the dining area.
Mr.Jenner. And you have just leaned down and taken a tube of what looks like wrapping paper from that drawer, have you not?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I have.
Mr.Jenner. And, is that the remains of the tube of wrapping paper that you had in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. No, this is a new one, similar to the old one.
Mr.Jenner. Did you purchase it at the same place that you purchased the previous wrapping paper?
Mrs.Paine. I purchased the rolls at some dime store.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Howlett, would you measure that wrapping paper?
AgentHowlett. It is 2 feet 6 inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, would I have your permission to take about a yard of this?
Mrs.Paine. Take all you want.
Mr.Jenner. I would like to take enough of it so I will get a sheet that is longer than it is wide. What did you say it was wide?
AgentHowlett. Two feet 6 inches.
Mr.Jenner. All right, would you hold one end of that, Mr. Howlett, please. We will now measure this.
AgentHowlett. That is 3 feet 1 inch.
Mr.Jenner. And now, Mrs. Paine, do you have a scissors, and would you please cut this?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I do.
(At this point the witness, Mrs. Paine, cut the paper referred to.)
Mr.Jenner. We will mark the sheet of wrapping paper which we have just cut from a roll of wrapping paper as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272." Would you mark that, please, Miss Reporter?
(At this point the reporter marked the paper referred to as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 272," for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, all I have to say is that this paper is startlingly like the wrapping paper that I exhibited to you in the Commission hearing last week.
Mrs.Paine. It is wrapping paper for mailing books and other such articles.
Mr.Jenner. It is a good weight. You have, I notice, now in your hand, some sealing tape or paper sticky tape, am I correct?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. From where did you obtain that?
Mrs.Paine. From the same bottom drawer.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a supply of that sticky tape in your home on November 22, 1963?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; this is the remainder of that.
Mr.Jenner. This is the remainder of a roll you had at that time?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Would you cut a slip of that for us?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Off the record.
Miss Reporter, would you mark the strip of sticky tape I now hand you as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273"?
(Paper referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 273," for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Paine, you now have that bottom drawer of your desk secretary open, and I see the remains of a ball of string.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Two balls of string, one dark brown string and one white string?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As I recall your testimony with respect to the wrappings on this package—the string was white string and not the dark brown string?
Mrs.Paine. That's my recollection.
Mr.Jenner. Does your now seeing the remains of the additional string you have uncovered from the bottom drawer of your secretary serve to refresh your recollection, even further, as to whether that was about the weight of the string on the blanket wrapped package?
Mrs.Paine. It looks rather thin to me, rather thinner than the string on the package, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. We will take a sample of that, and that will be marked "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274."
(String referred to marked by the reporter as "Ruth Paine Exhibit No. 274," for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. You also have something that is really rope in your hand now. Did you obtain that from that drawer?
Mrs.Paine. Yes; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Would you say that was too heavy or heavier?
Mrs.Paine. I would say it is heavier; yes.
Mr.Jenner. All right, we will not bother with that in the record.
Mrs. Paine, you recall your testimony with respect to what I called the Mexico note.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I forget the Commission exhibit number, but that will identify it. It is a note you found one Sunday morning.
Mrs.Paine. That's right—having already noticed it but not having read it the previous day.
Mr.Jenner. And, is this the secretary to which you made reference, the desk secretary—the piece of furniture from which you have obtained the wrapping paper, the sticky paper, and the string I latterly described?
Mrs.Paine. No; it is not.
Mr.Jenner. Where is that desk secretary located?
Mrs.Paine. That desk secretary is in the living room.
Mr.Jenner. Is the desk secretary in the position now as it was on that Sunday morning?
Mrs.Paine. No; it is not.
Mr.Jenner. Would you locate in your living room where that desk secretary was, if it is not here?
Mrs.Paine. It was in the middle of the space between the—the middle of the north wall of the living room.
Mr.Jenner. Now, the north wall of the living room presently has a sofa or a couch?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. I take it, therefore, that sofa or couch was not in that position?
Mrs.Paine. That sofa has exchanged places with the small desk secretary.
Mr.Jenner. And the desk secretary is now on the east wall of your living room; is that correct?
Mrs.Paine. That's correct.
Mr.Jenner. Please tell me where the television set was on the afternoon of the day—on the afternoon of November the 22d when the police called at your home?
Mrs.Paine. It was then where it is now.
Mr.Jenner. And it is now located against the south wall of the living room between the picture window facing on Fifth Street and the doorway entering into your home?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, you testified as I recall, that you and Marina were sitting on the sofa looking at television. Where was the sofa located at that time?
Mrs.Paine. On the 22d, the sofa was where it is now, as is true of all the other furniture in the room.
Mr.Jenner. So, that, therefore, I conclude that from the time on the Sunday morning that you looked at the Mexico note and made a copy of it and November 22, you had rearranged your furniture?
Mrs.Paine. I rearranged it on the evening of the 10th of November—that same day that I read the note.
Mr.Jenner. That was a Sunday?
Mrs.Paine. That was.
Mr.Jenner. And Lee Oswald and your husband, Michael, assisted you?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. As I recall your testimony was that before they began to move the furniture at your request you saw the Mexico note on top of the secretary and you put it in one of the drawers of the secretary?
Mrs.Paine. I opened the flip front and put it in there.
Mr.Jenner. Consequently, on the afternoon of November 22, 1963, when you were looking at television, you and Marina were facing out—facing toward Fifth Street?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were the drapes on your picture window which I see on the south wall, drawn back?
Mrs.Paine. They were not closed.
Mr.Jenner. They were not closed?
Mrs.Paine. They were covering perhaps a foot of the window on each side.
Mr.Jenner. Were you so intent, you and Marina, from looking at the television that you did not notice the police come in to your door?
Mrs.Paine. I think we could not have seen them coming to the door.
Mr.Jenner. Why not?
Mrs.Paine. We were sitting here. I was in the middle of the sofa and Marina was to the west.
Mr.Jenner. She was to your right?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. And you say you could not have seen them?
Mrs.Paine. Well, there were several times—Idon't——
Mr.Jenner. Well, at the instant of time they came, had you noticed them coming?
Mrs.Paine. No; I had not.
Mr.Jenner. You say you could not have seen them because, I take it [at this time Counsel Jenner with the assistance of the witness, Mrs. Paine, drew the living room drapes so that they no longer covered the living room windows]—because they approached the house from the driveway side, which is on the west?
Mrs.Paine. Right, and as I recall, both of the cars that came in were parked to the west of my driveway.
Mr.Jenner. So, they would have come at an angle, which assuming the door wasclosed——
Mrs.Paine. As it was.
Mr.Jenner. The door opening onto Fifth Street?
Mrs.Paine. The door was closed.
Mr.Jenner. May the record show, and I will ask Mr. Howlett if he agrees, that under those circumstances, with the officers approaching from the west, that the ladies sitting on the sofa or couch could not have seen them as they approached from the west?
AgentHowlett. No.
Mr.Jenner. So, the first time, I gather you were aware that the police had arrived or come, was when the doorbell rang or they knocked on the door?
Mrs.Paine. The bell rang and I was first aware of them when I opened the door.
Mr.Jenner. Now, we will get you, Odell, to come in here.
(At this point the reporter proceeded to the point designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr.Jenner. I will proceed to describe here your lawn and if you, John Joe, will come out and check me on it and will you stand in the doorway, Mrs. Paine, and would you check me, Mrs. Paine, as I recite these facts?
Mrs.Paine. All right.
(At this point the persons heretofore mentioned assumed the places designated by Counsel Jenner.)
Mr.Jenner. That your home is well set back, we'll measure it in a moment, from the street, and it is a rather generous lawn with some bushes, the bushes are not solid as a screen, but they are up close to your home. The lawn area is entirely open except for the oak tree which I have heretofore described as being as a large generous shade tree about 2 feet in diameter. We will measure the circumference in a moment. John Joe, could we measure the distance from the south wall of the home to the sidewalk?
AgentHowlett. There is no sidewalk—there is a curb.
Mrs.Paine. Yes; there is.
AgentHowlett. 42 feet.
Mr.Jenner. Will you come in, John, and recite in the presence of the reporter what that distance is?
TheReporter. I have it in the record from his statement—42 feet.
Mr.Jenner. There is a roof or canopy over the porch entrance, the depth of which from the south wall to the south edge of the roof area is what, Mr. Howlett, to the south edge of the roofed area?
AgentHowlett. It would be 11 feet.
Mr.Jenner. And it is how wide from east to west?
AgentHowlett. Seven feet three inches.
Mr.Jenner. Now, is it not true that except for the porch canopy we have just measured, that the entire front lawn is open?
Mrs.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And unobstructed except for the tree?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Now, in your testimony you stated that on the late afternoon of November 21 when you came home, you approached your home from what direction?
Mrs.Paine. From the east.
Mr.Jenner. From the east and so you were driving west?
Mrs.Paine. I was.
Mr.Jenner. And is it not true, as I look facing east now, I can see some considerable distance of a good block down the street?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And I am standing at the doorway entrance to your home?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. About where you were when you first noticed to your surprise as I recall your testimony, that Lee Oswald was on the premises?
Mrs.Paine. To the best of my recollection, I had just entered this block—that's across Westbrook.
Mr.Jenner. Across the cross street which is to the east of your home, which is named Westbrook?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that's how far?
Mrs.Paine. Three houses down.
Mr.Jenner. Three homes down, and out on the lawn was Marina and June, their child?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then Rachel, I assume, was in her crib or somewhere in the house.
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. But she was not out on the lawn?
Mrs.Paine. She was not out on the lawn.
Mr.Jenner. You pulled up in the driveway?
Mrs.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Paine, off the record, I would like to go into that a little bit.
(Discussion between Counsel Jenner and the witness Mrs. Paine off the record at this point.)
Mr.Jenner. All right. On the record. You came home that evening, you sighted your home and saw Lee Oswald out on the lawn, the front lawn, late in the afternoon of November 21, 1963, and you swung—you came to your home, pulled up in your driveway as is your usual custom and parked your car?
Mrs.Paine. That's right.
Mr.Jenner. Had Lee Oswald noticed you then as you pulled in the driveway?
Mrs.Paine. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And did he come over to your automobile?
Mrs.Paine. I don't recall.
Mr.Jenner. Did you greet him in any fashion?
Mrs.Paine. My best recollection is I was already out of the automobile when we actually exchanged greetings.
Mr.Jenner. And did you express surprise that he was home that evening?
Mrs.Paine. I did not express it.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything indicating he knew he was there by surprise or at least unexpectedly?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. Did he do so at any time during the course of the evening?
Mrs.Paine. No; he did not.
Mr.Jenner. Did Marina?
Mrs.Paine. She expressed surprise to me, yes; and apologized.
Mr.Jenner. Apology for what?
Mrs.Paine. For his having come without asking if he could.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression as to whether she was surprised?
Mrs.Paine. My impression is she was surprised.