Mr.Liebeler. It was a package which wasn't quite so tapering?
Mr.Paine. Quite so tapered.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that approximately the length of the package that you remember in your garage?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I think that is good. I grabbed it in some way or another, I don't know what he did with this end.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to the "A"?
Mr.Paine. There was a string, there were two strings on it.
Mr.Liebeler. When you estimated the length of the package before, would you have estimated it with the flap of the blanket that is now on the "A" end folded over or extended a little bit as it happens to be in this particular package?
Mr.Paine. I don't think it was—I think the package is still all right if you fold it over, and I would not, the length I was estimating was the kind of length that I would grab there.
Mr.Liebeler. So you think that the length would be more appropriate if you folded this flap over here at "A"?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you measure the length of that package and tell us what it is?
Mr.Paine. That is 41 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after going through the process that we have gone through here, of trying to wrap this rifle in this blanket, do you think that the package that you saw in your garage could have been a package containing a rifle similar to the one we have here?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I think so. This has the right weight and solidness.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you estimate, did you ever estimate, the weight of that package?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell the FBI approximately how much you thought it weighed?
Mr.Paine. Oh, I may have said 7 or 8 pounds. But that was all after the fact. I mean I didn't do it at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with the FBI the question of whether or not the object in the package that you saw, let's assume for the moment that it was a rifle, did you ever discuss with the FBI whether the rifle could have had a telescopic sight mounted on it or not?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember whether I discussed that with the FBI. I haven't thought much about it. I didn't feel in the area of the package where the sight is. In my memory of the tubes, I did picture more than one tube.
Mr.Liebeler. You did picture more than onetube——
Mr.Paine. I didn't picture it anywhere. I assumed there was going to be—there was more than one tube. I hadn't placed it in any picture therefore that itwas——
Mr.Liebeler. When yousay——
Mr.Paine. I think I assumed that, I think, because this line along the top of the package was not straight enough to be the tube I have drawn there. Ishould say, in other words, either the bulk of the package as well as the out in the middle or there could have been a sight there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the FBI or any other investigatory agency of the Government ever show you a picture of the rifle that was supposed to have been used to assassinate the President?
Mr.Paine. They asked me at first, the first night of the assassination if I could locate, identify the place where Lee was standing when he was holding this rifle and some, the picture on the cover of Life.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you able to?
Mr.Paine. I identified the place by the fine clapboard structure of the house.
Mr.Liebeler. By the what?
Mr.Paine. By the small clapboard structure, the house has an unusually small clapboard.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you identify the place as being?
Mr.Paine. The Neely Street address. He didn't drive a car, so to have them over for dinner I had to go over and pick them up.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell the FBI that at first you felt if the object was a gun in the package it did not have a scope on it, but after seeing pictures of the gun and noting the small size of the scope on the weapon used to assassinate the President that the object you lifted could have been a rifle with the scope mounted on it?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember saying that; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by FBI agents Odum and Peggs on November 24, 1963?
Mr.Paine. Well, of course, I have seen Bob Odum frequently. Peggs is an unfamiliar name. It doesn't mean he couldn't have been there. That night I mostly went into the police station, spent much of it at the police station.
Mr.Liebeler. On November 24?
Mr.Paine. Is that a Sunday night or Monday?
Mr.Liebeler. Sunday, the 24th would be a Sunday.
Mr.Paine. I am too confused. Maybe it was on the next night that I spent at the police station.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, let's go back and tell us about as best as you can recall how many times did the FBI interview you starting with the day of the assassination, the 22d of November. Did the FBI interview you on that day?
Mr.Paine. There was someone at the police station, first the police took us to the station and asked us questions and we filled out an affidavit right in there.
Mr.Liebeler. That is the Dallas Police Station?
Mr.Paine. The Dallas police, and after they were finished someone from the FBI, I believe, asked me some questions. It was almost as though he had no—by leave of the police that he could do this.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the name of that agent?
Mr.Paine. Now, I don't believe I met, I was introduced to, Odum prior to the 22d. I do not remember that man, and it is possible that—I don't think it was Odum, but I wouldn't recall that out and I do not remember the name of that man. I don't know what he looks like.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you interviewed by the FBI on Saturday, November 23?
Mr.Paine. I am not going to be able to remember when I was interviewed without being able to have something to hang it on. There were news reporters. First the news reporters were more in evidence, and then the police came out again, and both of them stick in my mind more because they are more objectionable. I mean there ismore——
Mr.Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I mentioned the name of Richard E. Harrison as an FBI agent who interviewed you on November 22, 1963, at the Dallas police station?
Mr.Paine. No. I don't remember the name.
Mr.Liebeler. Reconstruct for us the events of Saturday, November 23 as best you can. And perhaps I can help you if I ask you first, did you stay in your apartment in Grand Prairie the night of the assassination, the night of the 22d?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't think so. No, we had a late supper there. Life reporters were there,and——
Mr.Liebeler. At Irving?
Mr.Paine. At Irving, and then they came again early next morning and I was there with the family in the morning so I must have been there at night.
Mr.Liebeler. And the Life reporters came on Saturday morning again?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. The 23d. What happened, how long did they stay and what happened after they left?
Mr.Paine. Well, they left quite early, I think, it might have been 9 o'clock, relatively speaking, 9 or 9:30, talking to Marina Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you do after they left?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember. I think I went over to the Irving apartment, I mean the Grand Prairie apartment, at some time during the day, I don't remember what for. I had in mind, there was something I was trying to do, I can't remember now what it was, I mean something I would have been doing on the weekend. So, between, let's say, they left at 9:30, and about 5 o'clock, I don't remember what happened.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go to your place of business at any time, to the Bell Helicopter plant on that day?
Mr.Paine. Well, my apartment was close by it. I think somebody has asked me this question before and I think at the time I said no, and I don't remember now, that is my closest memory to that occasion.
Mr.Liebeler. Your recollection is that you did not go to the helicopter plant?
Mr.Paine. My recollection now is now fuzzier than ever but I recall previously I thought about it and I said, no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you go to the police station in Dallas on Saturday?
Mr.Paine. Yes. I recall the FBI came, not the FBI, the Dallas police came and took me in their car. We went back via Grand Prairie which was out of the way and the sun was about setting so that was about 5:30.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you come back to Irving after you left the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Paine. Yes, probably 8 or 9 at night.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you stay at Irving that evening?
Mr.Paine. I think I probably stayed Saturday evening and went back, spent Sunday evening in Grand Prairie so I could get to work easily the next morning.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember talking to your wife on the telephone on Saturday, November 23?
Mr.Paine. I may have called her from the police station or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. I am going to unwrap the package with the rifle which was wrapped in the blanket, and I want to ask you if you had ever seen this rifle, Commission Exhibit 139, before?
Mr.Paine. Not to my—the first time I saw a rifle, I didn't realize that he had a rifle. I thought, I knew he liked rifles because he spoke fondly of them in the Soviet Union although he regretted that he couldn't own a rifle, and I supposed that he still didn't have one so I didn't see a rifle until the night of the 22d when Marina was shown a rifle in an adjoining cubicle glass between us.
Mr.Liebeler. You observed through the glass a rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear any of the questions being asked her at that time?
Mr.Paine. No; I couldn't hear.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your wife see this rifle being shown to Marina Oswald?
Mr.Paine. She was in the room with her.
Mr.Liebeler. She was in the room with Marina Oswald?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, after Marina Oswald was shown this rifle, did your wife tell you anything about the questions that were asked of Marina Oswald at that time?
Mr.Paine. Yes; she said Marina couldn't, wasn't able to, identify the rifle. I can't remember now whether she said she knew it was a rifle because she had looked in and seen the butt end of a rifle but didn't—I think this is what she said at the timebut——
Mr.Liebeler. This iswhat——
Mr.Paine. I will say it again. I think Ruth reported at that time, or this is a recollection I have of a report that Ruth made and I think it was at that time, that Marina said she couldn't identify this rifle. She knew that Oswald had a rifle, and she knew that it was in a package wrapped in the blanket in the garage, but that she had only seen it accidentally when she had discovered what it was accidentally when she had looked in the corner of the package and saw the butt end of a rifle but she didn't like rifles, made her nervous or something to that effect so she didn't look at the whole rifle.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Ruth tell you anything that Marina Oswald said about the presence or absence of a telescopic sight on the rifle at that interview with the Dallas police?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember anything that she may have said about that.
Mr.Liebeler. But you are quite clear that your wife told you that Marina had said that she could not identify the rifle that was shown to her as being the rifle that was owned by Oswald?
Mr.Paine. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I want to draw your attention specifically to a sling or a device that serves the purpose of sling on this rifle, which is Commission Exhibit 139, and ask you if you have ever seen anything like that before?
Mr.Paine. I am taking your question to mean did I see it on the rifle, a sling on the rifle I saw that was shown to Marina? I don't think I can truthfully remember.
Mr.Liebeler. I also want you to consider whether you have ever seen adevice——
Mr.Paine. No; I have never seen a sling built like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen any device that looks like this at all whether it was designed for a rifle or for any other purpose? Do you have any idea what this might be?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't recognize it. I have never seen it.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't remember ever having seen anything like this around your own house or garage in Irving?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, we have here the parts of a rifle which is similar to the Commission Exhibit 139, and I will lay these on the blanket, and I will ask the reporter to indicate on the record that the counterpart rifle has been identified by FBI No. C-250. I want to ask you, Mr. Paine, to try to wrap this in the package, the broken down rifle and see if that works out any better or any worse than the attempt we made to wrap the complete rifle.
Mr.Paine. I guess all that happened was I lifted up the thing in the same fashion. I don't think that is going to help the problem. It makes the package a little bit shorter but that other package—I wouldn't have got the sense of pipe.
Mr.Liebeler. The witness indicates that because of the stock and the rifle barrel are separate when the rifle is broken down, it seems natural, does it not, Mr. Paine, to place the barrel and action of the rifle directly over the top of the stock when wrapping it this way?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. If you do that, you would not have the sense of grasping the muzzle of the rifle or of a pipe when you picked up the package?
Mr.Paine. And this, putting the barrel below the stock, doesn't leave, offset the package in the way that gave me the problem with the folding shovel in there. The symmetrical shovel if I wrapped that in some fashion. Also it mustn't rattle. He is going to have to tie it firmly with string not to have it as monolithic or solid as it had been. The barrel, I must have just felt the barrel, I felt a pipe, and the barrel had to be sticking out beyond the stock.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that because the barrel of the rifle had to be sticking out behind the stock and because when the rifle is placed in the package in two different pieces, it is difficult to tie it tightly enough to keep it from rattling and you would infer that the rifle was put together when it was in the package in your garage, assuming that there was a rifle in the package in the garage? Did you ever tell the FBI that you were sure in the light of recent events that you were sure it was a rifle in the package?
Mr.Paine. I told the FBI the description or the suggestion of a rifle as the object brought together these loose pieces or loose concepts on the offset bulk which was the butt end, and the pipe, the 30-inch pipe I drew in the picture, so it made sense. The picture jelled when the rifle was suggested as an object.
Mr.Liebeler. And so you concluded that it was likely that there was, in fact, a rifle in the package?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I thought that was so.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you Commission Exhibit 364, which is a replica of a paper sack or package which was found in the School Book Depository, after the assassination. I point out to you that Commission 364 is merely a replica of the actual sack that was found. The actual sack that was found is Commission Exhibit 142, and it has now been discolored because it has been treated by the FBI for fingerprints.
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. But there is a part of the package that has not been treated, and I ask you if that part of 142 that has not been treated is similar to Commission Exhibit 364 as far as color and texture are concerned. I want you to examine both of these pieces of paper in any event.
Mr.Paine. Well, it looks to me as if 364 is a more usual kind of paper, the difference is pretty slight.
Mr.Liebeler. You do not notice a difference between the two papers, however?
Mr.Paine. Yes; is seems to me that is unusually crisp; yes, I would say there is a difference.
Mr.Liebeler. And you note that the difference is, 142 is more crisp than 364?
Mr.Paine. Yes. It seems to me this is the kind of paper, it seems to me this is more common.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to 364?
Mr.Paine. 364, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you think that is a more commonly observed type of paper?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that is an unusual paper. You don't find paper bags made of that.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to 142. Now, examine, after examining both 142 and 364, did you have any paper of that type as far as you know in your garage or at your home in Irving?
Mr.Paine. Well, most of the things that are paper have been added to the garage since I moved out, so I am not very familiar with them. We stored some rugs in, I think, in polyethylene, but I am not sure all of them were in polyethylene, and there were some curtain rods or something like that which are still there. I don't know how they came.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of curtain rods?
Mr.Paine. These expanding rods thatare——
Mr.Liebeler. And you have no idea where they came from?
Mr.Paine. Let's see, no, those came down from—I think those were in the house, I guess they weren't bought. I think Ruth took them down because the children were allergic to something, and she was taking them down, took down the curtains, and left only shades. Bought shades, I guess, she bought curtain shades to go up, new shades. That is a question, well, of course, paper could have been—I don't remember any particular, I didn't have any rolls of this kind of paper or a supply of it, wrapping paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's go back to the curtain rods for just a minute. You say they were in the house at the time in Irving when you purchased the house.
Mr.Paine. Yes, curtain rods came to my mind recently because they are junk that I try to keep propped up on the shelves or above the work bench, and I think they were in our house and there were curtains on them and she took the curtains down to get rid of the fabric that might be holding dust and put up instead some new curtains, new window shades in the bedrooms.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately when did she do that, do you remember?
Mr.Paine. You will have to ask Ruth herself. She put down a new floor,also, getting rid of the old rugs for the same purpose, and I thought it was in the fall, but I can't place when it was.
Mr.Liebeler. In the fall of 1963?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you say the curtain rods are still in the garage?
Mr.Paine. Yes, I think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately how long are they?
Mr.Paine. Well, I think this is, when they expand, I guess the curtain rods themselves are 32½ inches to 3 feet, but the two of them slide together to make a pair, this expanding type just of rod metal.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately how long are they, would you say, when they are fitted together and in their collapsed state ortheir——
Mr.Paine. As I say, those came out of the house or she would not have, I was trying to think of some of the paper she might have had that resembles this, but the thing she bought new would be the shades, the window shades to go in place of those curtain rods.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember seeing any paper in the garage that might have been a package in which those shades came?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't recall any.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have a conversation with your wife about these curtain rods in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Paine. No. I think we did both read that he had said he was, to Frazier, that he was carrying, maybe it was curtain rods or something to do with windows in my mind.
Mr.Liebeler. But your wife didn't mention to you that Oswald ever mentioned to her anything about the curtains rods?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, place yourself in the garage on or about November 21, 22, 1963, or shortly before that time, and tell me everything that you can remember as being in that garage.
Mr.Paine. Well, there is a bench along, in front of, a fiberglass window panel. That bench is generally covered with boxes, there are boxes underneath that bench. On the end of the bench is a drill press. My recollection is confused by the fact I am much more familiar with it now that I have moved back and I have moved my stuff into that garage, so it is fuzzy in my memory.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you present on November 22 when the police or the FBI or any other authorities searched the garage?
Mr.Paine. No, I wasn't.
Mr.Liebeler. What time did you get to the Irving house on the 22d?
Mr.Paine. I think just about 3 o'clock.
Mr.Liebeler. 3 o'clock on Friday afternoon?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What were the circumstances under which you first heard of the assassination on that day?
Mr.Paine. I was eating lunch in the bowling alley, and the waitress came and told me. I thought she was joking, and we went and listened to somebody's transistor, and then I went back to the lab.
Mr.Liebeler. At that time you had heard only that the President had been shot, is that correct?
Mr.Paine. Yes, that is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. There was no connection with Oswald?
Mr.Paine. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. And the assassination at that time?
Mr.Paine. That is right. Went back to the lab andthen——
Mr.Liebeler. Before you get back to the lab let me ask you this, who was with you at the first time you heard the assassination?
Mr.Paine. Dave Noel.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Mr. Krystinik with you?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear during this first period of time when you first heard of the assassination, that the President had been shot near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe so. I think, I heard that he had been shot, I listened over some of the crowd's shoulders, a little cluster of people listening to a transistor radio thereby knowing it was no joke, so we went back to the lab where there is a radio. So I didn't hear it until I got back to the lab. As soon as I got back to the lab it was not very long after that that it was mentioned, that the Texas School Book Depository Building was mentioned, and then I mentioned to Frank Krystinik that is where Lee worked, and then in the course of the next half hour Frank and I were discussing whether to report to the FBI that Lee worked there,and——
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me what you said and what he said.
Mr.Paine. He was urging me to do it, and or asking whether I didn't think we should do it, and I was torn but I came up with the decision no, the FBI already knows he works there. Everybody will be jumping on him because he is a black sheep, and I didn't want to join the hysterical mob in his harassment. So I decided I wouldn't call, I didn't say that I couldn't but I said I wasn't going to call the FBI on it.
Mr.Liebeler. And you told him that?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say?
Mr.Paine. Well, I think he accepted it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it occur to you at that time that Oswald had in fact had anything to do with the assassination?
Mr.Paine. Yes, of course, it did, I am sure it made by heart leap to hear that building mentioned. But I thought—I didn't see how it helped the causes that he presumably was concerned about, so I thought it unlikely on that account alone.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think he was capable of doing that at that time?
Mr.Paine. We heard or somewhere I read or heard a report, and an eye witness, presumably eye witness, report saying the man who was shooting the President took his good old time or, in other words, fired with deliberateness. This seemed in character.
Mr.Liebeler. With Oswald?
Mr.Paine. With Oswald, yes. I don't think he was a person with compassion, or—the only reason I didn't think he was because I didn't see how it fitted in with his philosophy or how it was going to forward his causes, not because it seemed—not because it was not possible to his nature or his character.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you call Ruth after you learned of the assassination and prior to the time that you heardOswald——
Mr.Paine. Yes, I did call her.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you say and what did she say?
Mr.Paine. We said very little. That must have been, I guess I called her immediately getting back to the lab, so she would be watching and listening and getting clued in to the news, start watching the news. That must have also been before the Texas Book Depository Building was mentioned because I would have mentioned that I didn't. I just—we said almost nothingexcept——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to her after you learned that the TSBD was involved, but before you learned that Oswald was suspected of being involved?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't believe I called her again.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you subsequently learn that Oswald had been arrested?
Mr.Paine. Yes. As soon as I heard his name mentioned, then I went home. His name, of course, was mentioned not in connection with the Texas Book Depository Building but simply as a person caught in the theatre. But that was enough connection for me.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you knew he did work at the TSBD?
Mr.Paine. Yes, of course, Frank and I were having this heart-wrenching discussion about the right thing to do. And justification for my action was based on the thought that he was probably not the one and, therefore, it was a cruelty to be adding to the harassment that he would inevitably encounter because anyone who knew him for very long surely knew his views. That is he would, he would be a black sheep in any crowd of Americans.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's go back to the question of this paper. Do you have anyrecollection of ever seeing any paper like either one of these two samples in front of you, 142 and 364, in or about your place in Irving, Tex.?
And in connection with this question consider also the gummed wrapping tape with which the packages are reconstructed?
Mr.Paine. We have a roll of gummed wrapping paper at home but this is 3 inches wide and we have 2-inch wide. Do you have a ruler here? Yes, this is 3-inch tape.
Now I don't remember for certain what the tape is we had at home, but I had the impression it was a 2-inch tape.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection that the authorities inquired about this question before?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't recall that question at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you still have that tape?
Mr.Paine. Yes, we do.
Mr.Liebeler. I would like to have you make sure that it doesn't get lost when we come down to Dallas within the next week or two. We will ask you some more questions about it.
Mr.Paine. All right. Do you want me to make a note of it?
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, I will ask you if you would, when you return to Irving, if you would take a sample of that tape and mail it to me at the Commission so that between now and the time I come to Texas the FBI will have an opportunity to examine it and compare it with the tape which has been used in making bags. Do you recall whether that tape was at your premises on November 22?
Mr.Paine. I think so. It has been there for quite a long time. That is presumably. I don't think it has been used up. I was using it fairly recently. I didn't use much so it would still be there, and I think it had been a big roll and now it is a small roll. We don't use much.
Mr.Liebeler. Where was it located on the 22d of November, do you remember?
Mr.Paine. Yes; there is a drawer which it is possible he knew of. The desk—I think he helped us move the furniture around at that time the desk was moved to its present position, which is right beside the garage door. There is a kitchen-dining area and from that the door leads into the garage and it is right beside that door in the bottom drawer.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the paper. Do you think that there is any possibility that Oswald could have gotten the paper from which he presumably made this bag at your place?
Mr.Paine. Well, I don't recognize that paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to 142?
Mr.Paine. Or as I say, this looks more common or cheaper grade of paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Referring to 364.
Mr.Paine. And I don't remember paper of either kind, of course, in the garage itself.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of the authorities inquiring about the presence or absence of paper like this at your place?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussions about any questions which the FBI or the other authorities may have asked your wife about this question?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember anything on it. One way or the other about that.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your recollection the subject has never been mentioned between yourself and your wife?
Mr.Paine. I am certain that I have never discussed tape with anyone. I did know it was reported in the paper that Lee went to work that morning with something wrapped in brown paper, curtain rods, I guess he did call it. Whether we, had some discussion or I think it is—we may have had some discussion. I just don't remember the burden of it.
Mr.Liebeler. I have a list of names of people who I think lived in the Dallas and Fort Worth area and I want to ask you whether you know them or whether their names are familiar to you. Mr. and Mrs. Peter Gregory?
Mr.Paine. The name has been mentioned. Ruth, I think. Russian speaking people, Ruth has mentioned the name.
Mr.Liebeler. You have never met them?
Mr.Paine. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection of what Ruth told you about them?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe she had met them either. No, I don't recall what she said about them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you that she had called Mr. Peter Gregory in connection with some work she wanted to do in the Russian language, subsequent to the assassination?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember the context in which she mentioned Peter Gregory's name.
Mr.Liebeler. Max Clark.
Mr.Paine. That is an unfamiliar name.
Mr.Liebeler. Gali Clark?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't know that.
Mr.Liebeler. Elena Hall, Mrs. John Hall?
Mr.Paine. No, I don't remember that.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. George Bouhe?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Anna Meller?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Anna Ray?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. And that is Mr. and Mrs. Frank Ray?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Paine. It was, the name there is familiar. I don't believe I have met them. They were friends of Everett Glover and then Everett Glover moved to their house later.
Mr.Liebeler. Moved into De Mohrenschildt's house?
Mr.Paine. Yes; they were, they had been in Haiti for a while, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mr. Glover tell you that?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You never met De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Paine. I have—Everett gave some parties to which we went, it is possible that I—for practical purposes I had not met them.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't know anything about them?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever speak of them?
Mr.Paine. I think he did, yes, yes; he did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what he said?
Mr.Paine. I remember, I don't remember what he said about them. I was—it is possibly because he said the name twice and I didn't catch it until after the second time he had spoken of it or it didn't ring a bell, De Mohrenschildt didn't ring a bell, or he didn't pronounce it with such clarity or something. So it didn't really register and I didn't connect it up with whatever he was saying at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Gary and Alexandra Taylor?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Tatiana Biggers?
Mr.Paine. Everett had—Biggers doesn't sound like the right name. At one time Everett was—had a ballet dancer that had some kind of a name like that. He introduced me to a—I think we met at a theater and he introduced me to some—let's say no; I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. The name previously mentioned, Mr. Everett Glover, is he a close friend of yours?
Mr.Paine. We have known him a long time since we have been in Dallas. We met the Glovers at madrigal singing, we liked to sing madrigals, and he was part of the group and his wife used to sing at the Unitarian Church in the choir where I sing, and they were separated two years ago probably and I have seenhim only occasionally when he would go to the madrigals and once I went skating with him. Occasionally we have met also at the theater center. He has been there also. Occasionally also I have stopped by—there is a—he showed up once or twice at a single adult party dance of the Unitarian Church.
Mr.Liebeler. He doesn't work with Bell Helicopter, does he?
Mr.Paine. No; he works for an oil company, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. He is a geologist?
Mr.Paine. He may be something of that sort.
Mr.Liebeler. Richard Pierce?
Mr.Paine. Yes; he lived with Everett Glover.
Mr.Liebeler. How well do you know him?
Mr.Paine. I know him much less than Everett. When we visited Everett's house for a sing or something, I think I would meet him, and he also would come to these single adult parties—but I don'tknow——
Mr.Liebeler. What about Mr. and Mrs. Norman Fredricksen?
Mr.Paine. That name doesn't ring a bell either.
Mr.Liebeler. Volkmar Schmidt?
Mr.Paine. He is in that same category with Mr. Pierce living with Everett and occasionally showing up at the stag parties.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a Mr. and Mrs. Thomas Ray?
Mr.Paine. I don't think I know Ray.
Mr.Liebeler. Ilya Mamantov?
Mr.Paine. I suppose that is Mr. Mamantov whom I recognize by sight but I may have shaken his hand.
Mr.Liebeler. How do you have occasion to recognize him by sight?
Mr.Paine. Well, he is the son-in-law, if Ilya is the right name—I don't know, I know him as Mr. Mamantov, Ruth's tutor, I have forgotten his name at this time.
Mr.Liebeler. Dorothy Gravitis?
Mr.Paine. That is right. And I have seen him around SMU and he was an interpreter at the police station.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know anybody by the name of Harten?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Warner Kloepfer?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't think so.
Mr.Liebeler. Has Ruth ever spoken to you of the Kloepfers?
Mr.Paine. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Liebeler. My understanding is they lived there in New Orleans.
Mr.Paine. Oh, then I don't know them. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a Charles Edward Harris?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Florence McDonald?
Mr.Paine. I know Elizabeth MacDonald, I think it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is she?
Mr.Paine. She was a friend of—she would come to these madrigal groups and I think she a a friend of either of Everett or of Pierce or something like that. It was in connection with the madrigal sings and I think they were the ones who brought them into circulation.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Col. J. D. Wilmeth?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't know him. A colleague at work lives nearby who shares a well with him and keeps it repaired.
Mr.Liebeler. Who does?
Mr.Paine. Clark Benham, another colleague at work, uses the water from Colonel Wilmeth's well and has to keep the well operating so I hear stories about Mr. Wilmeth and he lives with his old, ancient mother. I haven't met him myself, I don't believe.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned that—did you mention that he called you at your office at one time?
Mr.Paine. Yes; I think he has, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us the circumstances of that event?
Mr.Paine. Well, he wanted to see Marina, I think, he wanted to hear, I think he said he wanted to hear the native tongue spoken or spoken by a native. Andso he was quite eager to meet both Ruth and Marina and called me to ask how and when and what not. So, he may have called me more than once on that subject.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea why he called you at work? In order to contact these women?
Mr.Paine. It seemed very appropriate. Maybe Clark, Clark, of course, sees him quite frequently, and maybe Clark told him that Marina was living with us. I cannot—I could be clued in. I remember at the time there was a reason for it. I mean it seemed appropriate, it wasn't out of the blue, but I can't—unless it was that I had been talking about Marina with Clark and then Clark told it to him.
Mr.Liebeler. You never have met Colonel Wilmeth?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Ruth ever tell you that Colonel Wilmeth had come to call on her and Marina?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that call or one or two calls he made to the lab to me was asking me if I would make it possible for him to meet them and so I told Ruth, and either Ruth called or I told her that he was, he would like to come on the weekend or something or he would call, I forget, but anyway I was a go-between to help in a polite way to meet Ruth.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Ruth tell you about the meeting when he came?
Mr.Paine. She did; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us about it.
Mr.Paine. I think she said she had a good time, I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any of the details of what she said?
Mr.Paine. I don't remember the details; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Clifton M. Shasteen?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. He is a barber in Irving, Tex.
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you ordinarily get your hair cut in Irving?
Mr.Paine. I used to get my hair cut, and I don't think that is the name of the person or where it used to be done but for the year that I was living in Grand Prairie, I found a barber I liked better over there and I had it done over there all the time, almost all the time. I guess I haven't in months. I had another barber down in Irving and got a bad haircut.
Mr.Liebeler. How much does a haircut cost in Irving?
Mr.Paine. I think more frequently it is a dollar fifty; when I get it over in Grand Prairie it is a dollar and a quarter.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there a standard price so far as you know for barber shops in Irving?
Mr.Paine. I would suppose a dollar and fifty was.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever know Oswald to associate with any young boys? There has been a report that he was seen in the presence of, in the company of a 14-year-old boy. Do you know of anyone fitting that description?
Mr.Paine. I don't know of anyone with whom he associated. I didn't—I was aware of not asking him how he spent his free time.
Mr.Liebeler. There has also been a report from Mr. Leonard Edwin Hutchinson who apparently runs Hutch's Supermarket in Irving that Oswald came in there on a certain day and asked to cash a two-party check for $189. Have you ever heard anything about that?
Mr.Paine. No; I haven't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Mr. Hutchison?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't believe I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know, are you familiar with Hutch's Market, Supermarket?
Mr.Paine. I am trying to think of the name of the market that is on Storey Road, not Storey, Shady Lane—Shady Grove Road or Lane, that is, if he isn't on that address then I don't know where it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever take Oswald to any supermarket?
Mr.Paine. I didn't; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever use your automobile?
Mr.Paine. Not to my knowledge. Presumably he couldn't drive. He couldn'thave used my automobile very well because I don't believe he knew where my second key was, and I would always have the key.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of an automobile do you own?
Mr.Paine. It is a French Citroen.
Mr.Liebeler. What model?
Mr.Paine. 1959; year 1959.
Mr.Liebeler. Not a 2CV?
Mr.Paine. No; it is an ID-19, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the only automobile that you own?
Mr.Paine. While they were here I bought a second automobile; an Olds, '55 or '56 Oldsmobile, '56, I believe.
Mr.Liebeler. When was this?
Mr.Paine. During the time, sometime between September and November, I bought a secondhand '56 Oldsmobile.
Mr.Liebeler. For your own personal use?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So that you then had two cars?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And Ruth has a station wagon, doesn't she?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And that is her own car?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the only automobile that she owns?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What model is that?
Mr.Paine. '55.
Mr.Liebeler. Chevrolet station wagon?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald used that?
Mr.Paine. Ruth took Oswald to practice driving in a parking lot.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you about that?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did she tell you?
Mr.Paine. I can't remember whether she has told me so much more since November 22 and I can't remember whether she may have said before that. She was telling me how he was persistent, diligent in trying to learn, not very particularly skilled, and apparently quite pleased at the whole process. He was grateful to her and one of the nicest kinds of communication she had with him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she say anything about his ability to drive a car?
Mr.Paine. She thought it was pretty crude. He was having trouble operating the clutch, and over-controlling the stick, or the steering wheel. Those are my words. She didn't use "over-controlling" but put it in some other way.
Mr.Liebeler. The station wagon has a straight transmission.
Mr.Paine. No; it is an automatic transmission, power brakes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he practicing on the station wagonor——
Mr.Paine. Yes; over-controlling the stick, I was thinking of an airplane.
Mr.Liebeler. I thought you mentioned the clutch.
Mr.Paine. Maybe it was the brake; did I mention the clutch?
Mr.Liebeler. At any event she wasn't overly impressed with his ability to manipulate the controls?
Mr.Paine. She was impressed with how much a person has to learn when they learn to drive a car.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever lend Oswald any money?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever give him any?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether your wife did?
Mr.Paine. I don't believe she gave Lee any money. She gave Marina pocket money.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea of how much she gave Marina?
Mr.Paine. Generally she would pay for things that Marina needed, medicinesand things like that. I think she also gave her pocket money. It may have been five dollars a week or something like that. It could have been ten dollars a week. I doubt if it would be that much.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any knowledge of Oswald spending any money for bus fare from Dallas, between Dallas and Irving or anywhere else?
Mr.Paine. He would come out and I suppose by bus to Irving. I do remember that he came out a couple of times, and then wanted somebody to pick him up there.
Mr.Liebeler. At the bus station in Irving?
Mr.Paine. At the bus station in Irving.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say it was just twice that he did that?
Mr.Paine. I think that is about all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea what the bus fare from Dallas to Irving is?
Mr.Paine. No; I don't have any idea.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald spent any money for telephone calls?
Mr.Paine. I never saw Oswald spend any money.
Mr.Liebeler. For anything, under any circumstances at any time?
Mr.Paine. Yes. Of course, that shouldn't be—you construe that as you please, but if you think it is penny-pinching it may be. But I saw him at home and not in any position to spend money. He didn't have any money jingling in his pockets that I recalled.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether Oswald owned any cameras?
Mr.Paine. I wasn't aware of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether he ever bought any records, musical records?
Mr.Paine. Well, they made some records for us, I thought they were Marina's records. We played some records for them and they wanted to play some for us or something, so they were records that were Russian singing or something, I can't remember what it was. It was rather poor fidelity so I didn't enjoy listening to them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know whether Oswald received any periodicals or mail at your address in Irving?
Mr.Paine. Yes. The Daily Worker, or it is not the Daily Worker now but the Worker, what is it called now?
Mr.Liebeler. The Worker.
Mr.Paine. Would come. Ruth said he received all his, The Militant also there. I don't remember, recall, seeing The Militant there but generally, I didn't see the mail very much. She would put my mail apart, I had half my mail or more than half my mail would come to that address, since I didn't feel the one at Grand Prairie was a permanent address, so I didn't see most of the mail. She would separate my mail into a separate pile and I would pick it up.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussion with Oswald about these periodicals?
Mr.Paine. Yes. He said in regard to, I think, the Worker or at least it was the Worker he gave me to look at as the result of his conversation, he told me if you knew how to read the thing and read between the lines a little bit you could see what they wanted you to do.
Mr.Liebeler. He said that?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. When did he say that?
Mr.Paine. I think that was a week or two after he came, pretty soon after coming back. I talked to him rather less and less as the weeks rolled by.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask him what he meant by that remark?
Mr.Paine. Well, I certainly wish I had, no; I didn't. I took the issue he gave me just to make my eye go over it. I thought to myself instead here is a person who is pretty, well, out of it again if this is the way he gets his communications from headquarters.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us everything that you can remember about that conversation.
Mr.Paine. That wasn't much of a conversation. It happened in an afternoon. I am afraid I can't remember anything more about it. I remember only the thoughts, I sort of smiled to myself when he said this.
Mr.Liebeler. Why?
Mr.Paine. Thinking of the kind of person—what it said about him so it suggested to me he wanted to be a party to something or a part of a group that had objectives. In other words, he wanted to be an activist of some sort. And he wasn't aware of—it seemed somewhat childish to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Why do you say that?
Mr.Paine. Well, it would have seemed more competent to have more explicit communication clandestine, if it would have to be clandestine. And if you had more explicit communication of some sort you wouldn't mention receiving your directions from the newspaper, reading between the lines of a newspaper.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever say anything to you that would indicate that he had ever received more explicit instructions from anybody regarding any subject in the political field?
Mr.Paine. No; he didn't, and it was these various—there weren't many occasions. Another time at the ACLU, in this talk that he had with Frank or this argument that he had with Frank and a third person on the way home he asked me if I knew that third person and whether I thought he was a Communist, and he said he thought he was a Communist, Lee thought the third person was a Communist, and he gave me some reason and I think it had to do with a receptivity to some words spoken about Castro. And I thought that was such a feeble reason or explanation of a Communist that again I thought to myself he must be out of it if that is the way he has to find his fellow travelers.
Mr.Liebeler. When you use the expression "out of it" do you mean to convey the idea that he was not closely associated with any Communist group or he just had a very tenuous grip on reality?
Mr.Paine. No; I mean in this case he was not associated with a cell or a Communist group. This I didn't know. That was the impression and thought in the back of my mind from the things he had said.
Mr.Liebeler. When he made this remark about the person at the ACLU meeting being a Communist how was the remark made, did he seem to indicate to you some desire to reach out and to know this person, to meet this person, to associate with him or was he just making a general remark or were you thinking in the perjurative sense, how did he speak, what impression did he give you?
Mr.Paine. I had the impression that he hoped he would be a Communist and he would like to meet him again, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you notice the person, this third person?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he an elderly person?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a Reverend Helligas?
Mr.Paine. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. This was not him?
Mr.Paine. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you observe Oswald speak with Reverend Helligas that evening at the meeting?
Mr.Paine. No; I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever learned the identity of this third person?
Mr.Paine. No; I haven't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen him again?
Mr.Paine. I think that is the last ACLU meeting I have been to. They convene very infrequently.
Mr.Liebeler. By that do you mean you have not seen this person again?
Mr.Paine. Therefore, I have not seen him again. I expect he is a registered member of the ACLU. I had the impression he was an ACLU member. He is rather softspoken, a quiet man.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you recognize him again if you saw him?
Mr.Paine. I probably would.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed him with anybody else in the ACLU?
Mr.Paine. I joined Frank to the ACLU now.
Mr.Liebeler. You discussed him with Frank?
Mr.Paine. Yes; that is Frank Krystinik.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you attempted to identify this third person?
Mr.Paine. No; I never, I have not.