Mr.Gregory. I assume it was both. It is an assumption on my part.
Mr.Liebeler. Marina never indicated specifically any difficulty that she had with her relatives?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form any opinion, or did Marina ever indicate to you that possibly she married Oswald to get out of the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Liebeler. And you never formed that opinion?
Mr.Gregory. I never formed that opinion. She seemed quite interested and quite enthusiastic about a new life in America, and she seemed to me that she wanted to take part in it, but she got over here and it was, she was just in one room and never got out, and she always kept saying, "When I learn English, it will be different."
She always expressed a desire to learn English, and, "Do you think I will ever be able to learn it?" And I said, "Yes." And she seemed quite enthusiastic about America.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you think it was strange that she seemed interested to learn English but apparently made no attempt to learn it? Did you discuss that with her at all?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I would always ask her, "What have you learned," and she would say "Nothing." And I said, "Well—" we really never went into it completely why she hadn't. I just assumed that either she didn't want to or else she really didn't have the opportunity to get out, or I can't answer specifically.
Mr.Liebeler. She never indicated a desire to you that you should help her learn English in connection with her attempt to teach you Russian or to improve your Russian?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald the reason, or with Marina,for that matter, the reason why Oswald decided to leave the Soviet Union and return to the United States?
Mr.Gregory. Well, let's see, I have brought up why he was dissatisfied. Well, of course, he didn't get enough food. That seemed to be one of his major things.
And evidently he lived fairly poorly over there. Then I am sure he went over there thinking this would be the heaven on earth, the workers' paradise, and he quickly found out that wasn't so. This might be a personal judgment on my part, but I think he felt that they are making a mess of things over there. Maybe he did believe in communistic principles which I don't believe he understood if he believed in them. But he felt that the present administration like the party boys and the people in power were just making a mess of things, that they didn't know what they were doing. He felt like, he said they were opportunistic. No; he never came out and said, "I left because so-and-so and so-and-so."
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate a desire to have his children raised in the United States?
Mr.Gregory. I can't remember if he did.
Mr.Liebeler. You told us a moment ago that Oswald at one point told you how he had left the Soviet Union and gone through Poland and East Germany. I would like you to tell us everything you can remember about that.
Mr.Gregory. I really can't remember anything specifically. I just asked him how he came out, and he said he was on the train, and something or other happened in Poland, I didn't quite understand it, where there was some incident in Poland where they bought something, or some person sold them something black market and—I can't remember it, but they never gave me a travellogue of their trip out of the Soviet Union.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he eventually went to some point in Holland and boarded a ship and came back to New York?
Mr.Gregory. He did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any recollection about that other than what I have just stated?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you how he got from his landing point in the United States to Texas?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you where he landed in the United States?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know that now?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate any dissatisfaction with the conditions here in the United States other than the ones that you previously indicated that he expressed? That is, that everyone seemed to be concerned about making money? Did he ever indicate that he thought particular institutions ought to be changed in any way?
Mr.Gregory. No; his only objection that he ever voiced to me was about the money everyone was out for themselves, and evidently he never had much money, and I guess he felt persecuted on account of this. I remember one evening I gave him a tour of the town, and I took them to, you know, drove by all the big mansions. I figured they would be interested in seeing that, and it seems like there if he would really have any strong feelings, they would have come out then.
He said something about how horrible it is that here people are living in these big mansions, and I think just before that we had seen a bad part of town where the colored people lived, but he made no comment there. I think he just said, "Well, I never want to be rich like that."
Mr.Liebeler. He indicated no particular animosity toward people of wealth and position?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Going back to his experience in the Soviet Union, did he ever tell you that he had ever been in the hospital there?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you any of the details about his marriage to Marina, as to any difficulties they experienced in getting permission to become married, or anything of that nature?
Mr.Gregory. No; I don't think so. As I remember, it happened quite fast. I believe they were married 2 or 3 weeks after they met.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that he ever told you about his experiences in the Soviet Union that we haven't already covered?
Mr.Gregory. Not at the moment.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever discuss any subject concerning Russian military movements or the presence of troops, concentration of equipment, aircraft and that sort of thing?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Never mentioned it at all?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You told us before that you held a bachelor degree from Oklahoma University and that you majored in economics?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss economics with Oswald?
Mr.Gregory. I never discussed it with him because I don't think he knew anything about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the subject ever come up between you?
Mr.Gregory. He would always say that is my great love, history and economics.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say about it? I am interested in this, because I gained the impression from others that he didn't know very much about it. In my opinion you probably do know more about it than most of the men that I talked to, so I would like to have you tell us as much as you can.
Mr.Gregory. He never said anything, and that is the reason I got the impression he didn't know anything about it, because if he knew, he would want to talk about it. I never approached the subject because he seemed to not want to get into it. I thought from an interview with him, when they were having all this on TV, that they asked him a question, something about comparative economics, and he gave some kind of stupid answer and more or less confirmed my opinion that he didn't know too much about it. But we never did have a specific discussion about economics.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss with Oswald any contacts between him and agents of the Soviet Government in connection with any attempt on their part to recruit him as an intelligence agent or as open activity of the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever discuss it with anybody else?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it ever occur to you that Oswald might be an agent of the Soviet Union?
Mr.Gregory. No; I was always fairly positive that he wasn't, because I figured that if the Soviets wanted to get someone, they could get someone a lot more reliable. They would have a lot more sense than to get him, because I think he was, personally had a bad temper, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. What makes you say that?
Mr.Gregory. Well, he would always, he never really didn't get mad, but he would—I never did figure out if he and Marina were arguing or just talking, but he would always shout, and I remember one evening that we went out, were going to the grocery store, and Marina had June in her arms and she stepped over and fell off the porch, and boy he got mad. You know, the baby fell on the ground. He really got mad. And that was the only time I ever saw him real mad. I guess maybe he had reason to be mad, because Marina had dropped the child.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she fall out of her arms?
Mr.Gregory. They both fell. She hurt her back. I thought she had.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he do?
Mr.Gregory. He went over and picked up the baby.
Mr.Liebeler. Then what did he say?
Mr.Gregory. He got real mad, and then they ran in and they had the medical book written in Russian about baby care, and they went through it and I think the baby had a cut on its head, and Marina had a cut on her knee or something, and everything quieted down and we went out again, but it was a real hot moment.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than the fact that you noted, is there any other reason why you said you thought he had a bad temper?
Mr.Gregory. I heard afterward, after the last time I saw him, I heard reports about him beating her, from the Dallas acquaintances.
Mr.Liebeler. You never saw any evidence of that yourself?
Mr.Gregory. No. One time I went over and she had a black eye. At this time I had no suspicion, that—but possibly I never asked her where did you get the black eye.
Mr.Liebeler. And you never had any reason to thinkthat——
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. That he had been mistreating her, based on your own experience?
Mr.Gregory. Later when I heard about this in Dallas, well I thought maybe it could have happened back there then.
Mr.Liebeler. Are there any other reasons on which you base your opinion that he had a bad temper?
Mr.Gregory. No, just personal judgment. He seemed to be a small person that is always ready to flare up. We always had very good relations. We were very friendly.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than the fact that you think he had a bad temper, is there any other reason why you think the Soviets would not recruit him as an agent?
Mr.Gregory. As I say again, I don't think he was very smart.
Mr.Liebeler. Are there any other reasons?
Mr.Gregory. No. Then, of course, his animosity which he expressed toward the Soviet.
Mr.Liebeler. Towards the members of the Communist Party?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. He didn't quite enjoy life over there, and it just didn't enter my mind that he could have been.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it ever enter your mind?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. It is only after the assassination that you considered this question; is that correct?
Mr.Gregory. Even then I never considered it seriously.
Mr.Liebeler. But my question is: When did you consider it at all?
Mr.Gregory. Only after, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. After?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. I think this might be important. More or less his philosophy, which I think came out, is that at the time I was interested in going and studying in the Soviet Union in our exchange program. We have an exchange where our University sends over students and they send over to ours, and I was interested in seeing how it was, how life would be, see if it would be too hard, and he says, he told me, "Just go over there. Don't get on a waiting list. You will never get there."
He said, "If you want to do something, go ahead and do it. You will get involved in red tape." And I think that was possibly the way he thought about everything.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever form an impression of Oswald, based on your association with him, form an opinion prior to the time of the assassination that he was mentally unstable, too, in any way?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not? He did not appear to be that to you?
Mr.Gregory. Let's say, I wouldn't classify him as—evidently he was, but at the time I didn't think he was. I just thought he was, as I say, fairly hot tempered and not extremely brilliant.
But I never did think of him as mentally deranged. Maybe I saw him mixed up. He must have been mixed up to do what he did, as far as the assassination, but just going over to the SovietUnion——
Mr.Liebeler. Did you consider this question prior to the assassination? The question is, tell us in your own words what opinion you formed of Oswald and what you thought about him at the time you knew him in 1962?
Mr.Gregory. I never minded him. I always enjoyed being with him. I enjoyed Marina more than Lee. She was a very pleasant person, very pleasant to be with, interesting. I can't say that I disliked Lee. He had bad qualities, but I mean, when we were together, I think he more or less put on his best front, because I think he considered me someone he could talk to. Because I think he considered other people beneath him, and he thought that everyone was judging him.
I think he felt that his brother—this is a personal opinion—that they were sort of taking him in out of the goodness of their hearts.
And I never expressed any judgment on it or even asked him or faced the matter as to why he had done what he did. Therefore, our relations were always good. But still I classified him as hot tempered, not very smart, and slightly mixed up. And I am sure about a good many other examples, but I am not a psychiatrist or psychologist.
Mr.Liebeler. When you are saying not very smart, are you talking about what your impression of what his intelligence or what his level of education?
Mr.Gregory. I am thinking of academic sense, inability to grasp things.
Mr.Liebeler. Basically a function of his IQ rather than his formal education?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you ever interested in his formal education, or make any inquiries on that?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; I was interested in it as to whether he finished high school, and that he had expressed to me desire to go on in higher education.
Mr.Liebeler. We have already covered that.
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever indicate to you, or did you ever form the opinion, that he was capable of violent acts?
Mr.Gregory. No; I didn't think he was. I would say maybe I could only picture him getting into a fight or something. Judging from the type of person he was, if someone would insult him, I think he would get into a fight, but as far as the major violent act, I couldn't picture him doing.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you consider that question prior to the time of the assassination?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. It just never occurred to you?
Mr.Gregory. No. Just an automatic judgment like I make, a general judgment about all people, I figured he was the type person, if you go downtown with him and someone would say, would insult him, he would probably get into a fight or something like that. That is just my general judgment of him. He never did in my presence, or nothing ever happened. It is just a general judgment.
Mr.Liebeler. The kind of judgment you would make about many people, is it not?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. There never was anything peculiar about Oswald that caused you to form a peculiar judgment about him or think he was peculiar in any way?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. But he was the kind that easily flared up, although he never did it in your presence, he was the type that would, and you did think that about Oswald?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. But as far as any violence, I couldn't picture him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald ever indicate to you that the world situation was not due to the people in the world, but was caused by the leaders in the various countries?
Mr.Gregory. I think so. Once or twice he made that exact statement, and I can't remember if it was Marina or Lee. That is the exact words.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that translated into any animosity against the leaders of the two countries, either Khrushchev or Kennedy?
Mr.Gregory. I could not say. I would not think so, because of what I have already said about the fact that Lee had expressed admiration of Khrushchev and had expressed that positive feeling toward Kennedy.
Mr.Liebeler. Now that I have called to your attention and you recall that either Lee or Marina did make a remark about the world troubles being caused by the leaders and not the people, does that cause you to reflect on your prior testimony?
Mr.Gregory. No; I don't think so. There was no animosity in the statement. It was more orless——
Mr.Liebeler. Philosophical opposition—no personal animosity expressed at all?
Mr.Gregory. No; no such animosity.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between Lee Oswald and Jack Ruby?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any knowledge of Oswald's drinking habits, as far as alcoholic beverages are concerned?
Mr.Gregory. He never drank in my presence.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know whether or not Oswald was interested in any other women during the time that you knew him?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear that he was?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ever express an interest in guns to you?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever observe any firearms in his presence?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Or in his possession?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Or discuss the subject of firearms?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. During these lessons that you received from Marina in the Russian language, was Oswald usually present or usually absent?
Mr.Gregory. Usually present. In fact, he was always there. The first time I was ever over was the time that he was away somewhere, and he came back, say, 10 minutes after the lesson started.
Mr.Liebeler. That was the time he had been to TCU?
Mr.Gregory. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of any attempt on Oswald's part to commit suicide?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. The same question as to Marina?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know James Martin?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You never met James Martin at any time?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you meet him in Oklahoma?
Mr.Gregory. No; I never met him in Oklahoma.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know anyone by the name of James Martin?
Mr.Gregory. The only persons I ever met in Lee's presence are his brother, and Thanksgiving when I went to pick him up there was another half brother and his wife.
Mr.Liebeler. The name was Pic, was it not?
Mr.Gregory. Yes. I learned that after the assassination.
Mr.Liebeler. After the assassination did you learn that there was a man by the name of James Martin who became Marina's business manager?
Mr.Gregory. I believe I read the name in the paper.
Mr.Liebeler. But you never met him either in Fort Worth or Norman or any other place?
Mr.Gregory. Never heard of him.
Mr.Liebeler. Just never met him—any individual, who appeared to beMarina's business agent, whether or not his name was James Martin or anything else?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any conversation with Lee or Marina about Marguerite Oswald?
Mr.Gregory. No. He never mentioned the fact that he even had a mother.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever observe Lee Oswald driving an automobile?
Mr.Gregory. No. I asked him if he could drive. He said, "Yes." But if we ever went anywhere, I drove.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember anything more about that? Was that just a simple statement?
Mr.Gregory. I just simply said, "Do you know how to drive?" And he said, "Yes."
Mr.Liebeler. When did you ask him that?
Mr.Gregory. I don't remember whether we were going out to some grocery store or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. But you never saw him drive a car?
Mr.Gregory. No. He would walk great distances without thinking about it. I mean, what is in our estimation a great distance. And then he rode the bus quite a bit. But I never saw him drive a car or heard of him driving a car.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you surprised when you learned that Oswald had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Gregory. Very.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us something about your state of mind at that time?
Mr.Gregory. Well, my first impression was, I saw him on television when they first brought him in, and they didn't mention his name. And later they said the first suspect being brought in is Lee Oswald. I felt sure he had not done it. I felt that they probably brought him in because of his record in the Soviet Union and thought maybe he would be a likely person, but I did not think he had done it.
The only time I decided he may have done it was when the Secret Service talked to me and said the evidencelooked——
Mr.Liebeler. Talked to you?
Mr.Gregory. Yes; it was on a Saturday after the assassination, and said it looked like he was the one. And my—I more or less reoriented my thinking that he was the one.
Mr.Liebeler. Who from the Secret Service talked to you; do you remember?
Mr.Gregory. I can't remember. Real nice fellow. Oklahoma City.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Nielsen?
Mr.Gregory. I think that was it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he outline the evidence to you relating to Oswald's alleged guilt?
Mr.Gregory. No; he just said something that, I think something came over the radio that the chief of police said he was the one, and then he made a phone call and he said it looked like he was the one, or something like that. Something that he identified the gun or, I can't remember the exact words.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember any organizations of which Lee Oswald was a member during the time you knew him?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear of any organizations to which he belonged?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of the names of any people with whom he associated?
Mr.Gregory. No; besides his brother and myself. That is it. Oh, then the Dallas Russians who I have mentioned.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a gentleman by the name of Gary Taylor?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know George De Mohrenschildt?
Mr.Gregory. I think I heard my father mention the name De Mohrenschildt. I think he is from Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. But you do not know him personally, however?
Mr.Gregory. No.
Mr.Liebeler. I have no further questions. If there is anything that you would like to add to the record, we would like to have you do it.
If there is anything you think I should have asked you about that I haven't, I would like to have you mention it and we will put it on the record now.
Mr.Gregory. No; I think you have covered it.
Mr.Liebeler. In that case, we will terminate the deposition. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Gregory, for driving all the way from Norman to Dallas to give us your testimony. The Commission appreciates it very much.
The testimony of Mrs. Helen Leslie was taken at 3:20 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Jenner. This is Mrs. Helen Leslie of 4209 Hanover Street, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mrs.Leslie. Not Fort Worth—Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Leslie, would you stand and hold up your hand, please?
Mrs.Leslie. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Do you solemnly swear that in the testimony you are about to give you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Leslie, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., and I am a member of the legal staff of the Warren Commission. The Warren Commission was created pursuant to a Senate joint resolution creating the Commission to investigate the assassination of the late President, John Fitzgerald Kennedy.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes, I know what it is.
Mr.Jenner. And all the circumstances surrounding it.
Pursuant to that legislation, President Lyndon B. Johnson appointed the commission, of which the Honorable Earl Warren, Chief Justice of the United States, is chairman.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And that Commission has the assignment I have indicated to you in the legislation. We are seeking on behalf of the Commission to inquire into all pertinent facts and circumstances relating to that assassination, and particularly to people who might or could have had any contact with or knowledge of one Lee Harvey Oswald and his wife, Marina Oswald.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. In the course of some depositions that I have been taking here in Dallas, mention was made by some of the witnesses of you.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And possibly you might have some information. I do want to assure you that all the references to you were in a complimentary vein and I have sought to have this privilege of talking with you and taking your deposition, because I think perhaps you might be helpful to us.
Mrs.Leslie. I will be glad to—as much as I can.
Mr.Jenner. You just sit back and relax and nothing is going to happen to you.
Mrs.Leslie. I don't think I know very much; actually it is very little.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you appear voluntarily.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes. Now, you want to know if I met the man and his wife?
Mr.Jenner. Maybe I can take it by easy steps, if you will let me.
Mrs. Leslie, you live in Dallas?
Mrs.Leslie. I live here in Dallas. I can start for you from where I was born, how I came here?
Mr.Jenner. All right, do that, will you?
Mrs.Leslie. I am not young girl. I was born in Moscow in 1900. This year on April 30, I will be 64 years old. I came to Dallas only 3 years ago.
Mr.Jenner. 2 years ago?
Mrs.Leslie. In 1960—it's only 3 years ago. I am a widow, my husband died in 1947, whom I married—I married in 1923, so I am a widow about 17 years.
Here in Dallas, actually, I was going from Florida to California, but my step-daughter, which is a daughter of my husband's first wife, asked me if I wanted to stop here in Dallas and maybe we can live together. So, I did and I arrived Dallas and I bought a house, so I settled here and on Hanover Street. It is my own house, in my name, and where I met a few Russians here, but deep regret—there was not a real Russian church, which I miss very much. It is in English language which certainly is not the same as your own language, the church has to be a Russian church on Newton Street.
Mr.Jenner. On what street?
Mrs.Leslie. On Newton Street.
Mr.Jenner. Is that St. Nicholas?
Mrs.Leslie. No, St. Seraphim.
Mr.Jenner. The sermon is preached in English, is it not, at St. Seraphim?
Mrs.Leslie. In English—Father Dimitri is preaching there. By the way, Father Dimitri christened the daughter of this Oswald. His wife came there to christen the daughter June, I heard.
Now, I was introduced to a few Russian people here.
Mr.Jenner. When you came here?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes; my daughter, she was here, and she is a ballerina and she was visiting Dallas a few times and she knew some people here. She is a ballerina—a dancer. She met here many people—mostly connected with ballet, artists, so she introduced me to the Voshinins, that's Igor and Natalia Voshinin, and then she introduced me to Mr. and Mrs. Ford.
Mr.Jenner. To Mr. and Mrs. Declan Ford?
Mrs.Leslie. Declan Ford and then to the Mellers.
Mr.Jenner. The Mellers, M-e-l-l-e-r [spelling]?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes; and then George Bouhe, and I think there are some Russians in Fort Worth—those Fort Worth Russians—the Clarks.
Mr.Jenner. Max Clark—Mr. and Mrs. Max Clark?
Mrs.Leslie. Those are all the Russians which I knew here.
Now, I don't remember which year it was, it seemed to me it was in 1961, when George Bouhe called me on telephone and told me there was one couple, a young couple came from Soviet Union and if I am interested to hear something about there, you know, the conditions in Soviet Union, he invites me to his house to meet them. He invited them and a few Russian people all interested in the conditions in the Soviet Union, which I left in 1924, and never corresponded with my own mother since that, and my own sisters. I don't know what happened to them, but I lost completely all trace of my own blood family. I never wrote them, because I was advised not to contact them, so I went to this George Bouhe's apartment.
Mr.Jenner. Now, Mrs. Leslie, the Oswalds returned from Russia on the 12th of June 1962.
Mrs.Leslie. 1962—so, it was in 1962. As I said, I am not sure which year it was—it was so long ago. Since that I have never seen him—I just have seen them once.
Mr.Jenner. This was a meeting at George Bouhe's house?
Mrs.Leslie. At George Bouhe's house—where he lives—I could be wrong.
Mr.Jenner. Was it during the daytime or the evening?
Mrs.Leslie. No, sir; it was in the daytime, you know, but I don't know exactly—I can't mention what hour it was, but it was in some entertainment, you know, some wine and a few things, and there was this couple with their baby, which was Oswald and his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Who was there in addition to yourself and Mr. Bouhe?
Mrs.Leslie. Mrs. Meller. From there we went to Mrs. Meller's house for dinner, so I presume it was something—3 o'clock or 4 o'clock that we were over at Mr. Bouhe's place, and then we went to Mrs. Meller's place for dinner.
Mr.Jenner. And who was present on that occasion?
Mrs.Leslie. There was a few people which I didn't know actually, I tell you—when I was introduced to Oswald—I didn't catch his name, his last name. They called them Lee and Marina, you know, and he didn't impress me very much.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes—he didn't impress me, you know, but the only thing—the only one thing impressed me—he was talking quite fluently Russian language. He was making some mistakes, grammar mistakes, in very good Russian language, because I was born there and raised there, but he was talking fluently. Everything he was talking in Russian language, but sometimes he was—he didn't use grammar things or something, he wasn't quite good in grammar. I think he was doing some mistakes, not in pronunciation but in grammar.
Mr.Jenner. What about Marina?
Mrs.Leslie. Marina impressed me as not so like people was saying—they have an education or something, she was quite wise and she was a pharmacist. I think as I understood after, she was a pharmacist, I think I understood after from some Russian, she took course of pharmacy and was working in Leningrad as a pharmacist, you know, so I will tell you—this Mr. Bouhe, he is a very kind man. He always liked to help everybody he can. So, he was born also in—Petrograd, before the Russian revolution it was, and she was born there, and when he heard she's from his hometown, that's why he took such an interest in this couple. He wanted to help them.
Now, she impressed me as a wise person, for her age, you know, and she was talking very good Russian language, which I rarely ever heard even on television, you know, sometimes when there was some talk of Ambassadors. It was a different language they use now—so many new words which I do not recall in our language. She was talking nice Russian language and that's all I remember.
Mr.Jenner. Did she speak good grammatically?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes, she probably finished school, you know, there is a different systems of school and a special course of pharmacy because she knew all terms, the Latin terms—something that not many people know, because she was educated in this field.
Then, we went to dinner and she had the trouble there with her baby, you know, changing diapers and so on like always, but this first baby it was. It wasn't the second baby then.
Then, I never met them—sometimes I was getting calls—how was this Russian couple getting along, and they tried to find for them new work for him—he was not satisfied with what he was doing. I think too little and always not enough money and Bouhe was trying to help them financially.
Mr.Jenner. Bouhe solicited money from you and others?
Mrs.Leslie. No, I didn't give. He was just helping because he is a quite wealthy man. He is alone and he doesn't have any limitation or anything. He always takes interest in some poor people. He sends money and he is supporting some old people. I do not know exactly which they are and so on.
Mr.Jenner. This interest of Mr. Bouhe, and this course of conduct that you have related was, as far as you are concerned, there was nothing extraordinary about it, it was something you normally would expect of a man like George Bouhe?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes, and I will tell you now, even now I do not meet with Mr. Bouhe and there is a completely different reason why. He is a temperate man, a little bit—he can tell you—insult you sometimes without thinking, and I am a little bit older than he is, a few years, so it was a case which probably will interest you because it was one of the finest things which happens.
When I was a child and close with my mother, I saw a photograph of my mother which was taken by some artist that was collecting Russian costumes of art, you know, peasant's costumes and her brother was in an academy, he was a painter, and this painter came from London and he wanted to help to make a book about Russia as an artist. So, he wanted to take photographs of the girls in these costumes and my mother was pretty, very pretty when she was young. She was 17 then—she was very pretty then, but that was long ago, that was 70 years ago, so they took her photograph in the costume and whenI was 5 years old, I sold this photograph to a man, nothing else, you know, just a photographer and I forgot about it, and already being in America, I was living in Boston with my husband. I visited one of my friends and she was collecting Russian things, embroideries and books and she showed me some books and it was art books and I was looking at those costumes and then I see a portrait of my mother.
It was, you know, very big thing for me because being already 13 years out of Russia and I find a portrait of my mother in America and it was a very rare case.
I was asking this lady to give me the name of this book so I could find it, and she put this book so well on the shelf and after a few years finally, she sends me the name of this book, and when I met Mr. Bouhe, I told him I would like to buy a book, which is a very old edition, maybe 60 years ago, which now probably they wouldn't make it any more. He said, "That's what I like to do. I like to do everything. I don't have too much to do," and you know, he has nothing much to do and he says that he will find it. Finally, he found these two books, one for $60 and one for $20. So, I said, "I don't care about the book, I care only about my mother, the picture of my mother. I will pay for it $20." And, at 7 o'clock in the morning he calls me and he says, "I have this book—or rather it has arrived. Which one is portrait of your mother?"
There were about 20 portraits of different girls in costumes and how can I tell him which one is my mother and I said, "You bring me book and I will show you. I cannot tell you."
And he said, "Oh, how can you not tell about your mother, how she looks and so forth?'
I said, "I cannot tell you. Come and I will show you, and why do you call me at 7 o'clock in the morning. I have to rush to my job and I have no time to talk now." So, he hung up. Then, in the evening I found the book in the threshold of the house. So, indeed, after my job I called him on the telephone and I told him, I wanted to thank him for it and ask him, "Why didn't you come in the evening so I can show you where is my mother?" And he told me, "I don't want to know you any more. You were so rude to me, you didn't want to tell me which one is your mother so I don't want to know you any more and I am not interested in it." I said, "That's your privilege. I cannot force myself on you, if you don't want to know me." So, that was a break, you know, so since that—it was about more than 1 year I have lost track of it.
After this I was not at his house. So, I meet him socially sometimes at Mrs. Ford's house and shake hands with him, but I not invite him. He says he doesn't want me to know him—he doesn't want to know me, so I do not invite him to my house, he does not invite me to his house; and that's the situation, and I didn't meet him since—since this case, but I have nothing against him, but I was expecting from him some apology. I am an older woman and, after all, he is a man and I am a lady and when he told me he doesn't want to know me, so that's his, you know, duty to excuse me. I was a little bit rough, or something, and that's the end, but he didn't, so I'm stubborn too, so that was the end with Mr. Bouhe, and I never met him one time, and when I meet him, I say, "Hello, how are you," and that's all.
Mr.Jenner. How did these people, Lee Oswald and Marina Oswald act toward each other on the occasion when you saw them?
Mrs.Leslie. I will tell you something—I don't know if Bouhe told you or others too. When she was out at a place—she had a black eye and she has her tooth out, one tooth was out, so a second man it was raised a question how she had this black eye and so on, and she said, "Oh, I hit the kitchen door. The baby was crying and I didn't want to make a light, the door was open and I hit it—the kitchen door."
And then, later, I heard from Mrs. Meller that he beat her, he was beating her, that he was always beating her and everybody was sympathetic with her. Frankly now, it is understandable. She was Russian, you know, it is some kind of a feeling of a Russian toward a Russian and they were mad at him and how he could beat his wife—this is not proper—to beat his wife.
Mr.Jenner. Well, now, we don't approve of that in America.
Mrs.Leslie. No. All I say now is what other people like Mellers and likeFords told me that once he beat her so hard and threw her out in the street, so she took her baby as a result in just a little blanket—she didn't know where to go and she came to Mellers and she said, "I don't know where to go," that she wasn't talking good English and he wanted to talk Russian at home, so she didn't know what to do and the Mellers are very nice people, so they took her in their house and she stayed there a few days until they found a place for her. I don't remember, but they said, "Oh, the awful things," and they took her—I think, you know, that she was staying with them.
I didn't know she was staying with Fords. I didn't know when, because I lost trace of her and so that's all I know about Oswalds. Actually, I didn't see her until when she was on television.
Mr.Jenner. Now, I want to ask you about a certain George De Mohrenschildt.
Mrs.Leslie. I do not know him very much, he is a friend of my daughter's and he is in Haiti.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I know that.
Mrs.Leslie. And he was patronizing Oswalds.
Mr.Jenner. What kind of fellow was George De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Leslie. You know, my daughter is ballerina and so even I have pictures somewhere with her. He was taking her out, you know, courting her. She is a very beautiful girl, my daughter—Nattialie Krassooska of the stage, and she is a very, very attractive girl and a very prima ballerina many, many years and he was courting her. They were going together, swimming together, and I don't know where—that's why she invited me to come here. She said, "I have here some friends," but when I came, he already married this Jeanne.
Mr.Jenner. Jeanne?
Mrs.Leslie. She's Russian—I don't know her maiden name, Jeanne or Jane or something in Russian, but I could not tell what her maiden name is and he was married four times and she was married, I don't know, a few times, and then they took this trip, a walking trip in South America or somewhere, you know, they walked.
Mr.Jenner. From the Mexican border down to Panama?
Mrs.Leslie. I don't know exactly, so they was walking and what were the arrangements he made—with some Life Magazine, or something, but he is a geologist anyway. She took this job in Haiti also make geologist, and when I came here he already was married, but it happens like so, once he lost his little boy from another wife and he was very much grieving about this boy, so my daughter, being his friend, she sympathizes with him and wrote him a little letter. She wrote him a letter of sympathy because he lost his little boy and then his wife, Jeanne, called my daughter and said that they was not meeting since he was married and she said she would like to meet her and since then, occasionally, we was meeting them at Fords and other houses and then once at Christmas time she invited them to come to our house, so they were once at our house. Now, I didn't know them before and I will tell you something—that what many people were afraid of, his wife is atheist. She doesn't believe in God.
Mr.Jenner. This is Mrs. De Mohrenschildt?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes—his wife, and he wasn't, when he was going with my daughter, which is very religious, he was going to church, even singing in chorus of church. After he married this Jeanne he became atheist too, you know, so I don't know—maybe he always is under the influence of somebody, but it is hard to tell, but I cannot judge them. I don't know how to judge the characters that they are, but everybody says, "Well, he is under influence of this Jeanne." That's all they say about him.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything extraordinary about him in his dress and his attitude?
Mrs.Leslie. You know, after this trip, they are very—they don't like to dress. You can invite them for Christmas and he will come in slacks, dirty, and in sweaters, you know, his appearance always shocked me a little bit. You know, when you invite people for dinner, you expect them to be more or less decent dressed, and she, too, and they was saying when they were making this trip to Mexico or South America, or I don't know, they was walking in bikinis and practically naked and there was dogs and a mule, and you know, so I don't knowwhat kind of people—whose influence was this and was he the same before or not, I cannot tell.
I never was interested in that, in this family, you know, close, so that's all I know about De Mohrenschildts.
Actually, now, it's already a long time, and my daughter doesn't either. The De Mohrenschildts are more or less friends with—and I don't know who knows them best, but I think—whether the Mellers do or not—I don't know who is friends, but I heard that he took interest in these Oswalds and Oswalds was in his house many times, but what they was talking about, if he knew about his point of view or if he knew he is a Communist, you know, many people was thinking that probably she didn't broke with the Soviet Union when she left, why he left, you know, why they let him out, you know, but nobody knows, you know, it is so hard to leave from there—his wife and child, why they let them out.
Mr.Davis. Did this occur to you?
Mrs.Leslie. It has occurred to everybody—how—he was so poor and Bouhe was helping him and he has no decent job and at the same time he took a trip to Mexico and he took a trip to New Orleans—he was taking these trips—who supplied him with money—nobody knows. You know, that's a thought everybody was thinking—how he went there and how—it's strange things, but nobody can answer these questions.
Mr.Jenner. But the interest of Mr. Bouhe and the Fords and the Mellers and the De Mohrenschildts and others was an interest growing out of good heartedness?
Mrs.Leslie. I hope so—I think so—I hope so. Mostly, you know, I cannot tell about De Mohrenschildts. She's Russian and he is Russian. I don't know—he's from Estonia or something, you know, De Mohrenschildt.
Mr.Jenner. On the Baltic Sea?
Mrs.Leslie. Yes; but she is Russian. Now, you know, it is natural that Russians wants to meet Russians to talk their own language, and not to forget it, so they met them somewhere and invited them to their place, and if they helped them, I don't know, but they met, which I know—they was meeting them—somebody told that the FBI was looking for De Mohrenschildt here, and I think they found he was in Haiti, and I think in 6 months he will come back and it will all be over, after this is over. Probably he will come back into the United States.
Now, I cannot tell any more. Yes—I wanted to tell this—so, when this naturally occurred, I was watching television because President Kennedy was coming to Dallas and, the man, you know, he was nice, and there was Mrs. Kennedy, the First Lady, and then there was a bullet and a shot and he was shot and later they show a picture of Oswald. They presume that it was Oswald who is killer, you know, and I look at this Oswald, and then they showed Marina with the child and I did not recognize her; you know, I have not seen them in a couple of years and I didn't know his last name, the name Lee and Marina didn't meant to me everything, and then they said "Russian born," but didn't occur to me that I met them, and then I went to church on Newton Street and then there was a friend of mine, Igor Voshinin and Natalia Voshinin and she said, "Did you hear who killed President Kennedy?" I said, "I don't remember his name. They named it on television but I don't remember his name."
They said, "It's Oswald, you know him." I said, "I know him?" And they said, "But yes; you met him." I said, "Well," and then I said, "Oh, yes; I met him." And then I stopped to look at the pictures more closely and I recognized him then, but at first even I didn't recognize him, because when you are not expecting—I didn't know his last name and such a common face he has, and such a—you couldn't remember his face very closely—it is just one person you can recognize him, and that's how it happened that I knew him and his wife. Oh, I feel so bad; I shaked his hand—I didn't remember if I did or not. I shaked his hand, and I said, "Oh, I shaked hands with the killer of the President," and I felt dirty and I touched something I didn't want to touch, you know, but actually I'm very sorry about Marina, his wife. I am sorry.
Mr.Jenner. Have you seen her since the occasion you met her?
Mrs.Leslie. No, no; I think she is now helped by Mr. and Mrs. Ford. It wascorrect that they was helping her because she received so much from the donations and money, and somebody took advantage of it and they was providing her money and she could not get for herself anything and they was investing it or something—I don't know the situation, but she is now—they asked her—as Russian—to watch over her. I don't know what she does—I never meet with her; I never invited Marina Oswald to my house and I do not intend to. I just don't want to—I don't know, but, you know, I have such a feeling that it is better to—I don't know, maybe I am wrong and have to be more Christian.
Mr.Jenner. Well, Mrs. Leslie, we appreciate very much your coming in, I know, at an inconvenience to you.
Mrs.Leslie. But if I can help with something I want to.
Mr.Jenner. You were helpful to us and we appreciate it very much.
Mrs.Leslie. Thank you very much.
Mr.Jenner. Miss Oliver will write this up and if you wish to read it, you have that liberty and that right to do so, and if you would prefer to do that, we will make your transcript available to you to read.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes; you will mail it to me?
Mr.Jenner. If you call in here to Mr. Barefoot Sanders, the U.S. attorney's office, he will have it.
Mrs.Leslie. I have to write his name.
Mr.Jenner. And he will know when your transcript is ready.
Mrs.Leslie. He will call me on the telephone?
Mr.Jenner. You had better call him because there are so many witnesses. Call him sometime next week and then you may come in and read it and sign it.
Mrs.Leslie. Yes; I will be glad to because everything I told, I told it under oath and it is completely true and I didn't try to hide anything.
Mr.Davis. That's the name and the phone number.
Mrs.Leslie. Sir, I will call him and ask him—what I have to ask—is my deposition ready?
Mr.Jenner. If the writeup of your deposition is ready for you to read?
Mrs.Leslie. To read—all right; thank you.
Mr.Jenner. You give him your name and he will tell you.
Mr.Davis. Let me give you another name to call since Mr. Sanders may be hard to get. You might call Martha Joe Stroud, who is an assistant attorney here and she is actually in charge of those, and she might be the one you could reach and she would be at this same number.
Mrs.Leslie. All right; I will do it.
Mr.Davis. I would say about Tuesday or Wednesday of next week. Thank you so much, Mrs. Leslie.
Mrs.Leslie. Thank you.