Mr.Krystinik. And immediately when the first report came in that the President had been fired at, three or four of us, I forget them, myself, Michael Paine, Ken Sambell, and Clarke Benham all gathered right around the radio like a bunch of ticks and stayed there.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Mr. Noel there?
Mr.Krystinik. Dave Noel, yes; I believe he was. I believe Dave was the one that went to dinner with Michael, if I am correct.
Mr.Liebeler. He went to lunch with Michael?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. As best you can recall, you had not heard anything about the attempted assassination prior to the time Michael and Dave returned from lunch?
Mr.Krystinik. No; we were listening on the radio and heard the report. As far as being shot at, I can't remember exactly whether Michael was there when the very, very first report came in, but he was there when the report came in. He was there when the report came in that he had died.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you and Michael have any conversations about the assassination?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes; we did.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us to the best of your recollection what he said?
Mr.Krystinik. I commented, "Who in the blue-eyed world would do a thing like that?" And if I remember right, Michael didn't make any immediate comment at all about the assassination other than what a terrible thing and what in the world could he gain. We commented, first immediate impression was that possibly the John Birch people would have had a grievance against him, possibly, and we talked about that.
And Michael said he didn't know. He wouldn't expect that the Communists would do it, yet at the same time he wouldn't expect the John Birch people to do it and wouldn't know. Then the first report came through that he had been fired at from Elm and Houston Streets in that area, and at that time Michael commented that, well, that is right close to the Texas School Book Depository.
I did remember prior to the assassination Michael telling me that Oswald had finally gotten a job and he was working at the Texas School Book Depository, and at that particular time right then, I said, "You don't think it could be Oswald?" And he said, "No, it couldn't be him." At any rate, he had the same impression I had, that none of us could really believe it was a person they had met. It was such a big thing that a person doesn't imagine himself having met a person that could do such an act.
Mr.Liebeler. Your first discussion with Michael on the question of Oswald's possible involvement in the assassination came after you had learned that the shots were fired in the vicinity of Elm and Houston near the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes; he commented about Elm and Houston, and he said that is where the Texas School Book Depository is, and the next comment was I commented, "Well isn't that where Oswald works?" And he says, "That is where he works." And I said, "Do you think it could be him?" And he said, "No; he doesn't see any way in the world it could have been him." But it wasn't but just a littlebit——
Mr.Liebeler. Let me interrupt you for a moment. You were the first one to mention Oswald's name in connection with the assassination between you and Michael Paine, is that correct?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir; everyone was standing around.
Mr.Liebeler. Why did you think of Oswald's name in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Krystinik. I guess mainly because the first time I had heard of the Texas Book Depository was, Michael told me Oswald had gotten a job there. And when he said Texas Book, that was perhaps the second time I had ever heard the name. I don't know that I actually knew they had one. And when he said Texas Book Depository, it immediately rang right back. And I said, "That's where Oswald works."
And I didn't think of Oswald shooting the President at that time. I just commented that was where he works. And then my next comment, "You don't think it could be him?" And he said, "No; of course not, it wouldn't be him." And it wasn't but just a little while later that we heard that Officer Tippit had been shot, and it wasn't very long after that that it came through thatthe Oswald fellow had been captured, had had a pistol with him, and Michael used some expression, I have forgotten exactly what the expression was, and then he said, "The stupid," something, I have forgotten. It wasn't a complimentary thing. He said, "He is not even supposed to have a gun."
And that I can quote, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." Or, "Not even supposed to own a gun," I have forgotten.
We talked about it a little bit more, about how or why or what would the reasons be behind, that he would have absolutely nothing to gain, he could hurt himself and the nation, but couldn't gain anything personal, and we discussed it.
That immediately ruled out the John Birch, but why would the Communists want him dead, and Michael couldn't imagine whether it was a plot or a rash action by the man himself. He didn't know which it could be. He said he didn't know. And he called home then to Ruth.
Mr.Liebeler. Before we get into that, you specifically remember that Michael said that Oswald was not even supposed to have a gun?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir; I remember that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember those exact words?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes. He could have said, "Oswald doesn't own a gun." That could be. That could be. The exact thing is cloudy a little bit.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your best recollection on the point?
Mr.Krystinik. My best recollection is, "He is not supposed to have a gun," or something in that vicinity. That is the best I remember right now.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have theimpression——
Mr.Krystinik. Now that you mentioned to me that he isn't supposed to own that gun, it is possible that he did say that, but the way I remember is that he said "He is not supposed to have a gun."
Mr.Liebeler. Did you get the impression at that time that Michael had any foreknowledge of Oswald's possible involvement?
Mr.Krystinik. None at all. I felt it hit him as a big shock.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you said that you were the first one to mention Oswald's name?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The basic reason you mentioned it was because you had associated his name with the Texas School Book Depository?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is there any other reason why you thought of Oswald in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Krystinik. Oh, it might possibly be; I can't really tell you, it was all just everything was going that way, and it was a trying thing of oppression and worry at that particular time.
It may be that he is the only Communist I have ever been introduced to, that I knew was possibly a Communist or Marxist, or whatever they are, and he was the only villain I could think of at the time, possibly. And I didn't really feel that he was a villain. I didn't really feel it was him, but he was the only person I knew connected with the Communist Party, and if the Communist Party should be associated with something, his was the name that came to my mind, possibly.
I feel the correlation came through the fact that Michael had told me about him getting a job at the Texas School Depository, and when I heard the name again, I feel that was the correlation that brought his name to my mind. A lot of these things, I don't know where or how they come to mind.
Mr.Liebeler. After you heard that Oswald had been apprehended in connection with the slaying of Officer Tippit, did you and Michael Paine then associate Oswald with the assassination of the President?
Mr.Krystinik. I did, and I feel that Michael did also.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you and Michael say to each other just very shortly after the word had come through?
Mr.Krystinik. I can't really remember. Michael said that he felt that he should be going home, that Ruth and Marina are both going to be muchly upset and there was going to be people at the house asking questions, and he felt he should be there to answer them. He did say, if I can answer, "I feel I should be there."
Mr.Liebeler. He said that prior to the time that Oswald had been publicly connected with the assassination, is that correct?
Mr.Krystinik. I just really don't know. Prior to Oswald's being apprehended, there was a description of the man on the radio, if I remember correctly, and the shot had been—it had been reported that—can we go back just a little bit?
Mr.Liebeler. Sure.
Mr.Krystinik. More of this is coming back.
Mr.Liebeler. Surely.
Mr.Krystinik. At the time the radio had commented that the shots had come from the vicinity of the Texas School Book Depository, and they put out a description of a young man. After I had asked Michael about the possibility of Oswald, well, he commented that that is where Oswald works.
Then they put out the description of the young man, and I said that fits him pretty good, to the best of my memory. You don't think it could have been him? They did put out the description prior to his arrest and prior to his having shot Officer Tippit.
Mr.Liebeler. The description seemed to fit Oswald?
Mr.Krystinik. The description seemed to fit Oswald, and they did at that time, if I remember, comment on him being about 25 years old. I think that was the age they gave, weighing about 160 pounds, and being sandy head, and if I remember right, they said a fair complexion. I don't remember that part of it. And shortly, just a little while after that, they commented on Officer Tippit having been shot and Oswald having been arrested in the Texas Theatre.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss with Michael the possibility that the description given fitted Oswald?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes; I did. I said it sounds like him. Do you think we should call the FBI. And he said, "Let's wait a little bit." And at that particular time he said that he didn't see any way in the world it could be Oswald at all. Besides, the man was in Oak Cliff, and Oswald was—works in the School Book Depository.
They commented on the radio there was a man fitting this description and having shot Officer Tippet in Oak Cliff, and being shot. They commented on Tippit, and they were after him, and it was after they arrested him in the Oak Cliff Theatre.
Mr.Liebeler. The description of this individual was given out after Officer Tippit had been shot, is that correct?
Mr.Krystinik. It seems that someone had seen him shoot Officer Tippit. I don't remember that for sure, the description was on the radio.
Mr.Liebeler. What did Michael say when you suggested that he call the FBI?
Mr.Krystinik. He said, "If it is him, there is nothing they could do right now. It seems they are right after him. He didn't see in any way in the world it could be him. He didn't believe that it could be him."
And then just a little bit after that, I can't remember time spans, that was a pretty bad day—when I first heard about it having been Oswald, to the best of my recollection, the thing he said was that, "He is not even supposed to have a gun." He may have been meaning to the best of his knowledge, he didn't know that he owned a gun. That would have been what he meant.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it seem strange to you at the time that Michael didn't want to advise the FBI?
Mr.Krystinik. No; it didn't at all. We had talked about—Michael is a little, I couldn't call him an odd duck, but he is very different. He doesn't like to intrude on anyone's personal privacy at all, I mean, the least little bit.
I can be making a telephone conversation to my wife or to the company on business, and he is very careful not to come into the office, and he will see me on the telephone and turn around and go back. He is very careful to afford to other people all the privacy that he can.
At the same time, we commented before when I had seen a fellow taking movies of the Chance Vought FAU 3 Crusader from the road above a railroad embankment just north of the naval air station, of the 11735 and I was a little bit wrangled about it and accosted the man did he—if he couldn't readsigns, that that was an—that was a United States Government reservation and no photographs permitted, and he said he was recording the historical information of the aircraft for the future.
It seems that no one is actually doing this and he was claiming this date and time that the FAU 3 was a fairly new airplane. And I don't know that taking that picture would hurt. There have been pictures of it in Aviation Week. It still wrangled me that someone would be taking pictures when there were signs up saying not to, and I accosted him, and I got his name. And I felt that he was probably lying to me, and I got his license number of his car, also.
The next day while they were discussing the situation at work, and Michael said, regardless of the signs there, that he was standing in a public right-of-way, and anything that could be photographed from the public right-of-way he could technically, regardless of what the signs said on the fence.
If it is something super secret, they should maintain a security check and faithfully check it out.
I asked him if he thought I should go ahead and call the FBI or the security officer at the naval air station. He said, I could do what I wanted. He certainly wouldn't tell me not to. Yet at the same time it was entirely possible that the guy was a nut and doing exactly what he said he was doing, and we might cause him a lot of inconvenience and a lot of unhappiness by hollering wolf when the man had done nothing wrong. He said it would be better had I gone ahead at the time and had him arrested on the spot.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that Michael's attitude toward calling the FBI in connection with Oswald's involvement was similar to the attitude that you explained in the situation you have just described?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes; and at the same time it still is his attitude. A fellow ran into the back of his Citroen and damaged it. And I said, "Well, you got his name, serial, license number and so forth?" And he said, "No, the man said that he would pay for it." I said, "Did you call the police in the event he sues you for a broken neck?" He said, "No, I take a man at his word."
He exhibited that several times to assume him to be honest until you have good reason or absolute proof positive. He would have to see in his mind that the man had done it before he actually would bring forth civilly, because he would feel that the man was actually going to sue him before he would take measures to even protect himself. As it worked out, I don't know whether the man ever paid for fixing the back end of his car, because he drove it that way for a long time.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to Michael since he returned from Washington?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss the testimony that he gave the Commission?
Mr.Krystinik. Only in that he said that he felt that he didn't give them anything that was news to them, that he said he told them about the same thing he told the FBI and other people that had talked to him. He felt that he hadn't earned his plane ticket.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't discuss any of the details of the testimony?
Mr.Krystinik. No, sir; none of the details.
At any rate, I did call the Security Officer and the naval air station in Dallas, and as it worked out, the fellow had been working for himself—seems he is out every Saturday and Sunday and that he had been checked out and is apparently a nut, rather than a Communist.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you think of anything else that you think the Commission should know about in connection with the assassination?
Mr.Krystinik. Nothing in connection with the assassination.
In connection with Michael, I would almost stake my reputation on his apparent honesty. I feel he is as good, I think, in his heart as he is on the surface.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think he had anything to do with the events leading up to the assassination?
Mr.Krystinik. I don't feel that he had anything to do with it. I think if he had been of a more suspicious nature, he could possibly have avoided the President being shot.
He told me after the President was killed and after it had come out thatthe rifle had possibly been stored at his home, that he had moved in his garage some sort of heavy object about this long wrapped up in a blanket, and he had the impression when he moved it this was some sort of camping equipment, and that it was considerably heavier than camping equipment he had been dealing with, and it never occurred to him it might be a gun or rifle that had been broken down.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you indicate approximately how long the package was?
Mr.Krystinik. He said something about like that [indicating].
Mr.Liebeler. How long would you say that was?
Mr.Krystinik. Looking at it, I would say 26 or 28 inches. Maybe 30 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. [Measuring]. The witness indicates a length of approximately 27 inches.
Mr.Krystinik. Michael might have had his hands up 2 or 3 inches different from that.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your recollection, Michael indicated the length of about 27 inches?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He told you that he did not suspect at any time prior to the assassination that this package contained a rifle, is that correct?
Mr.Krystinik. That's correct. Or a gun. He didn't state rifle in reference to the weapon.
Michael had commented briefly that he had never had a gun or would not have a gun in his house. He is opposed. I would assume he is opposed to killing men. I know he is opposed to killing animals, and he doesn't believe in violence at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Aside from this remark that you made about Michael Paine, is there anything else that you can think of that you would like to tell us in connection with either the assassination or Michael Paine at this point?
Mr.Krystinik. Nothing I can think of now. I have taken enough of your time. I can't really think of anything that is concrete from beginning to end that I feel would help you. I don't know of anything that is important.
Mr.Liebeler. How well do you know Ruth Paine?
Mr.Krystinik. We have been to her house once. We have been to the Dallas Dollar Concert with he and Ruth one time. We have had her at our house twice. Actually I can't say that I know her real well. I feel that I know Michael fairly well.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't really know Ruth well? Well enough to make any judgment about her character?
Mr.Krystinik. Only when I have talked to her, I had an impression I have been talking to an extremely sincere and very warm person.
I felt that if she had done something, she is of such a type she would say, "I did it." That is the impression I have about her. I don't know her well enough to make judgment upon her. I don't know Michael well enough to judge him. All I know of him is the association I had with him at work and the little bit I have had with him in my home. I don't actually know what he does on his off time, but in my association with him at work and what I know of him at home, I have actually come to love him as much as I love my brother.
Mr.Liebeler. Based upon your knowledge of both of the Paines, you have no reason to suspect them of any involvement of any kind in the assassination, do you?
Mr.Krystinik. Only as victims of a very cruel twist of fate, that is all I can say, and that they are in that position because of their charity. I think it is a vexatious, cruel reward for charity, to be associated with the people, or to harbor the wife of the assassin—I won't say harbor—I don't say she had anything to do with it. Michael told me that Oswald visited the Paine residence on weekends.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't have any more questions at this time. Unless you have something else you want to add we shall terminate the questioning. Thank you, Mr. Krystinik.
Let me indicate that the witness is willing to waive signature of the transcript, is that so?
Mr.Krystinik. Yes, sir.
Transcriber's NotesPunctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.Some simple typographical errors were corrected.Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none changed."Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on page447.Page1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.Page16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.Page23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; changed here.Page25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not changed.Page28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.Page43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; changed here.Page52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be "apolitical".Page56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".Page61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as "kidnaped"; changed here.Page63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.Page64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was misprinted as "huband"; changed here.Page72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not changed.Page74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed here.Page85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.Page89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed here.Page103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.Page103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.Page104: One or more lines after "Mr.Mamantov. Or way of government." appear to be missing from the Testimony.Page111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; changed here.Page116and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as "Manantov"; all have been changed here.Page131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".Page148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as "expresed"; changed here.Page162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.Page179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; changed here.Page195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".Page215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and capitalized that way.Page248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.Page269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.Page291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.Page320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.Page311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".Page320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you know".Page331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg.Page363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in that position.Page420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.Page433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.Page438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed here.Page440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".Page441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".Page447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".Page449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".Page458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.
Text uses "Le Gon" and "LeGon", possibly deliberately; not changed.
Text uses "door jamb", "doorjamb", "doorjam", "jamb", and "jam"; none changed.
"Exhibits Introduced" lists Exhibit No. 364 on page 93, but it is on page447.
Page1: "The Commission to investigate" was printed that way.
Page16: "quite a field" was misprinted as "quiet"; changed here.
Page23: "De Mohrenschildt Exhibit No. 5" was misprinted as "Exhibt"; changed here.
Page25: "Yours sincerly," was printed that way in quoted material; not changed.
Page28: "And your last name is" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.
Page43: "Have you seen him at any time" was misprinted as "see"; changed here.
Page52: "who was at that stage a political" probably should be "apolitical".
Page56: "banding about" possibly should be "bandying".
Page61: "we were kidnapped from the Germans" was misprinted as "kidnaped"; changed here.
Page63: "You joined your husband here" was misprinted as "you"; changed here.
Page64: "The husband would not take them to the hospital" was misprinted as "huband"; changed here.
Page72: "see if they're any corrections" was printed that way; not changed.
Page74: "assistant cameraman" was misprinted as "camerman"; changed here.
Page85: "seemed to be person of" was printed that way; not changed.
Page89: "I think they were located" was misprinted as "thing"; changed here.
Page103: "one of the other of us" probably should be "or"; not changed.
Page103: "And prior to 1952" was printed with that date.
Page104: One or more lines after "Mr.Mamantov. Or way of government." appear to be missing from the Testimony.
Page111: "on that particular morning" was misprinted as "partciular"; changed here.
Page116and elsewhere: "Mamantov" occasionally was misprinted as "Manantov"; all have been changed here.
Page131: "I lived until 1950 in Ventspils" probably should be "1915".
Page148: "always expressed what I would interpret" was misprinted as "expresed"; changed here.
Page162: "when I was 5 years old" is an unlikely age in this context.
Page179: "was eventually expropriated" was misprinted as "eventally"; changed here.
Page195: "ex-nephew" was printed as "exnephew"; changed here for consistency with other compound words beginning with "ex-".
Page215: "and a shotgun with us, And to be able" was punctuated and capitalized that way.
Page248: "Or the use of any weapons or his right to have weapons when he was in Russia?" is shown as dialog spoken by Mr. De Mohrenschildt, but probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.
Page269: "Zitkoff" is spelled "Jitkoff" elsewhere in this text.
Page291: "Four little kinds" probably should be "kids"; not changed.
Page320: "Yoico" should be "Yaeko"; not changed.
Page311: "so boldy" probably should be "boldly".
Page320: "little Japanese girl now, you now" probably should be "you know".
Page331: The Index referenced in Footnote 1 may not be available at Project Gutenberg. The other volume referenced in that footnote probably is Volume III, which is available at Project Gutenberg.
Page363: "registered a false, positive" was printed with the comma in that position.
Page420: "comittee" is misprint for "committee"; not changed.
Page433: "a year. IN the early winter" was printed that way.
Page438: "that was too symmetrical" was misprinted as "two"; changed here.
Page440: "I though it was" probably should be "thought".
Page441: "Commission Exhibit 148" possibly should be "140".
Page447: "Yes; is seems to me" probably should be "it".
Page449: "it made by heart leap" probably should be "my".
Page458: "but I though it said" probably should be "thought".