Mr.Jenner. Was that obvious to you in her presence when you saw him in her presence?
Mr.Glover. No; it was not obvious. This was only obvious from the description the De Mohrenschildts gave, but I still think this is a very important thing. I don't judge another person by the detailed things he says. I judge a person by the whole style of his life. This includes his relationship to other people, like his wife.
Mr.Jenner. I agree. The reason I pressed you again there was to bring out whether you were relying entirely on what the De Mohrenschildts said to you, or whether you were also relying on your contacts with the Oswalds and the general reputation in that community in which you lived in regard to that. They had views towards the Oswalds, and when I say community, I mean a circle of people.
Mr.Glover. Yes. Well, I have to admit that I have no direct evidence of the two Oswalds having trouble, but it was mentioned by the De Mohrenschildts, and I don't know whether by anyone else, that they didn't get along. And that fact also, along with this, would fit into the picture, as I learned later, he lost his job here in Dallas. And he had apparently lost his job in Fort Worth, and this added to the picture of someone who wasn't able to adjust. And such people who cannot adjust in their own work are very likely to be people who are not happy in their homelife and take it out on people in the homelife.
This is the inference I gave, and the only evidence I have is what De Mohrenschildt told me about that. I cannot say that I observed the Oswalds being antagonistic to each other.
Mr.Jenner. Now this first occasion then was an evening at the De Mohrenschildts, that he called you up without you having any prior notice, that the Oswalds were going to be there, and you went over and met them?
Mr.Glover. No.
Mr.Jenner. You knew in advance?
Mr.Glover. I believe they said when they called that these people were going to be there. I don't know how much notice they gave.
Mr.Jenner. Is there anything about which you haven't testified that struck you about the Oswalds on that occasion?
Mr.Glover. No; I don't believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Did he speak Russian during the course of the evening?
Mr.Glover. I'm not sure.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Or at least a language that was not English?
Mr.Glover. I really couldn't be sure on that point.
Mr.Jenner. Did she take part in the conversation to any extent?
Mr.Glover. Well, she never did take part in the conversation very much.
Mr.Jenner. When was the last occasion you saw the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. This, as I said before, was a few days to a week, I believe, after the time I saw them at the De Mohrenschildts'.
Mr.Jenner. Was that at your home?
Mr.Glover. That was at my home.
Mr.Jenner. Was this a visit or an assembly that you organized?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I was the prime mover in organizing it.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us what motivated you and what you went about doing, and who was there.
Mr.Glover. Well, I didn't get a very good impression of Oswald this first time, because I didn't talk with him. But I talked with Volkmar Schmidt, and we talked with Dick Pierce, who was living with us, and we talked about it. I asked Dick if he would like to meet this fellow, like to see what he was like, because the whole thing seemed rather an unbelievable story that this could happen. It was unknown as far as my experience is concerned. And Mrs. De Mohrenschildt had been pushing the fact that Marina did not have anyone to converse with, and she also said that Lee would not make any effort to help his wife learn English.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, I would like a little more development of that. Who made the statement to you?
Mr.Glover. One of the De Mohrenschildts.
Mr.Jenner. One of the De Mohrenschildts? This was not merely an idle remark, a chance remark made one time, but had they mentioned it several times?
Mr.Glover. I believe so; yes.
Mr.Jenner. In talking to you about the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. I would say so.
Mr.Jenner. They did say collectively—I mean—they did say affirmatively that one of the problems was that Lee Oswald was adverse to his wife Marina, learning the English language, or to use the English language?
Mr.Glover. Certainly that he didn't make any effort to help her.
Mr.Jenner. All right, okay, go ahead about your party now.
Mr.Glover. It so happened at this time that Ruth Paine, who is an acquaintance ofmine——
Mr.Jenner. How did you become acquainted with Ruth Paine?
Mr.Glover. I became acquainted with Ruth Paine either through the Unitarian Church here in Dallas, or through a singing group which had members in it, from the Unitarian Church, I am not sure which. As I remember, it may not be entirely correct, but sometime after '56, I think, '56 to '58 in there, I was more active. I had joined the Unitarian Church sometime after coming to Dallas, and I used to sing some time in the church choir, and my former wife did sing much more than I did. Sometime during that period Michael Paine came to sing with the Unitarian Church. It seems he had been trying out various choirs around the town.
Mr.Jenner. Had you known him prior to this time?
Mr.Glover. I had not and I don't think his wife came there much to the church. I am not sure whether she ever came to the church. I believe she is a Quaker, and I think she came very little to the church. Maybe she did come and sing in the choir. Subsequently it was, as I remember, it was through him that I met her, and probably at a singing group which was organized, in which the majority of the members of the singing group were people who sing in the Unitarian choir.
Mr.Jenner. Was this kind of a madrigal group?
Mr.Glover. Yes. This was what it was called, depending on the membership at any time. They sing all kinds of things.
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead about your party.
Mr.Glover. Okay, so I knew at this time I had seen Ruth Paine on a few occasions in the past 6 months or a year, and I must have been talking with her or seen her somewhere previous to this time of the party, at which time she mentioned that she was going, she thought she was going to teach a course in Russian at St. Mark School; and that she was trying to brush up on the Russian, on—or maybe I am just thinking she said this latter. But she was interested, and I didn't really know—I think at that time I was aware of thefact she had majored in Russian in school, or knew Russian very well, and De Mohrenschildt's wife Jeanne, was trying to find someone who could converse with her, and I thought I would tell Ruth Paine about her, maybe she would be interested in talking with this woman. So I invited her, and she said she would be interested. That is the explanation of how she came.
Mr.Jenner. Did you tell Ruth Paine about the Oswalds, to the extent that you knew about them at that time?
Mr.Glover. I am sure I did.
Mr.Jenner. Did she indicate whether she had any acquaintance or knowledge of the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. Well, it never occurred to me to question this until it was brought up by the FBI. As far as I know, this was completely new to her.
Mr.Jenner. Your reaction at that time, in any event, was, as far as Mrs. Paine is concerned, your knowledge of her, she knew nothing about the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. That's right, completely new to her. Dick Pierce came. At the time, Dick kept company with a girl who works at the laboratory, Betty MacDonald, and she came along. I believe he invited her to come.
Mr.Jenner. Did she speak Russian?
Mr.Glover. No; she did not.
Mr.Jenner. All right, then you had Pierce accompanied by Betty MacDonald?
Mr.Glover. Right.
Mr.Jenner. And you had Ruth Paine. Was she accompanied by her husband?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. She was accompanied by her husband on that occasion?
Mr.Glover. I am pretty sure that he was there. Again I am not a hundred percent sure. I think we talked about this, the three of us, that were living together. I am sure he was there.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware that Mrs. Paine and her husband were separated?
Mr.Glover. I was.
Mr.Jenner. As of that time?
Mr.Glover. I knew about that situation; yes. I don't think I invited him particularly, although I may have mentioned him, but I invited her because of the Russian.
Norm Fredricksen was in the office next to me, and I told him about the situation and asked him if he would be interested in coming, and he said he would come and he came.
Mr.Jenner. Is he a married man?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did he bring Mrs. Fredricksen?
Mr.Glover. He brought Mrs. Fredricksen; yes, sir. I had the impression at that time that Norm had been the most studious of the three that had taken Russian and he was continuing. He was going to graduate school and he wanted to make it a major language. At least that was the motive he presented to me. I was interested in someone who could speak Russian and could hear both these people talk, so I invited him.
I think that is all the people that were there. I know that when I talked to the FBI, I omitted Betty MacDonald's name in my statement.
Mr.Jenner. At least for the moment this exhausts your recollection as to who attended your party?
Mr.Glover. I believe so. I don't call it a party.
Mr.Jenner. I think you mentioned the De Mohrenschildts. Did they drop in?
Mr.Glover. Yes; for a few minutes, and went somewhere else. They were going somewhere.
Mr.Jenner. Did the discussion take place—were there any discussions during the course of that evening with Lee Oswald which dealt with his political views?
Mr.Glover. Yes; there were discussions.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about them.
Mr.Glover. Again I have to give an overall impression I got. This may be partly as a result of questioning from some of the people present, but among the things that came out was that, and again I mentioned this before in connection with the other meeting, it is an overall impression—he was apparently a Marxist.
Now I am not sure that I can say that he said exactly these words himself, or whether this was repeated to me after by Schmidt or Pierce or Mrs. Paine or someone, but as I say, I pay less attention to what a person says in detail than to the overall impression of what their style is; but I do remember specifically that he or someone else present said he was aMarxist——
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have of the distinction, if any, between Marxism and Communism?
Mr.Glover. Well, with reference specifically to the so-called Communist regime, the impression I got was that he was a Marxist theoretically, but he did not like what he saw in Russia. He didn't like it and came back, but apparently this did not satisfy him.
Mr.Jenner. He had theories, but what he saw in Russia didn't measure up to those theories?
Mr.Glover. Apparently so.
Mr.Jenner. His so-called ideals?
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, he had—what he had come back to here in America didn't measure up to whathe——
Mr.Glover. Apparently. He said so.
Mr.Jenner. Would you put that in your own words. What did he say on this occasion?
Mr.Glover. Again I have to qualify this. Maybe it is one of the impressions I got from other people talking afterwards, but I feel he said that he did not think that the Russian system measured up at all to his idea of what the society should be like, and obviously he didn't think the American system measured up or he wouldn't have gone there in the first place, and I am sure he said he did not think the American system measured up to his ideals.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion about his life or their life in Russia?
Mr.Glover. Yes; there was considerable.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mr.Glover. Well, the thing I remember was that he was working in some kind of a trade. I don't remember what trade he was working at. And I don't remember really too many strong impressions.
The strong impression I got of things that he talked about were the—was the fact that his wife was not treated very well in Russia after she married him. She was apparently looked down on. This was the impression I had from listening to Oswald, either Oswald or conversation with his wife.
Mr.Jenner. That occurred at this meeting at your house?
Mr.Glover. I believe so, yes.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, how did you get the Oswalds there? Did you call them directly, or did you have somebody intervene for you? How was that arranged?
Mr.Glover. I talked with the De Mohrenschildts as to where they lived. By this time he was living in Dallas. He had gotten a job in Dallas and they were living in Dallas.
Mr.Jenner. Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall?
Mr.Glover. I don't know the name of the company, but I asked them (De Mohrenschildts) about where he lived, and they gave me his telephone number at the place where he worked. I still have his telephone number and I called him and asked him if he would come over to the house to meet some people, some such words as that, and he said, he would. I believe he gave me the address. It might have been the De Mohrenschildts who gave me the address originally. I have that address and had it on a slip of paper in my purse, and when I was about to throw away the slip of paper on which I accumulated a lot of addresses, I copied it down in my address book. I just in—I just had a feeling I ought to record this.
Mr.Jenner. He lived on Elsbeth Street?
Mr.Glover. He lived on Elsbeth, that's right. The only thing I remember about the place at work was that I think he worked in the photographic department of some, apparently something to do with a printing plant. Then I called him and I asked him if he would come over, and he didn't have any transportation, and I offered to come over and pick him up. My wife remembers that Iwas down at the ice rink skating. I went down there early and picked him up on the way back home.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said during the time that you knew Oswald or had any contact with him as to whether he was able to drive an automobile and operate an automobile?
Mr.Glover. I do not recall anything said about that.
Mr.Jenner. I ask you to state the discussions that occurred at this party in your home, or gathering, let's put it that way. Would that be a better description? It was a gathering rather than a party?
Mr.Glover. Well, of course, one's immediate reaction to being associated with any dastardly act or event is of course so painful that I shrink away from him. It wasn't a party. It was a gathering for a fairly specific reason, to look at this fellow and let some other people look at him and see what they made of him, so I call it a gathering.
Mr.Jenner. I think that that is a fair statement of it, in any event. Tell us what he said his life in Russia was like, his views, if he expressed any views, and then I am going to ask you after that your impression of the man.
Mr.Glover. Well, I don't really recall anything that he said specifically. Seems like his conversation was of the type where he did not initiate very much himself. He answered questions, and maybe it is partly hindsight, now, I don't know, and it is hard to say, one has the impression that he wasn't very candid at all. He was not the open type of person who one might have hoped for. Maybe it was too much to hope, but I believe it has happened of people who have done, say, something like he did in the direction of Russia, and have realized how wrong it was and have come back to the fold, and have been candid about their experiences, and of people who have gone in a Communist direction certainly, and who have retraced their steps and come back to realize the truth of the matter and have been very candid about it.
And he was certainly not a candid person. I do not remember specifically anything he said. It is hard really to get a very good impression of things. It seems like he was trying to go along with things. He was enjoying being asked questions by people, and he was going along with the questioning. That was the impression I got. I remember this discussion of what he was doing (for work), but I don't remember what it was. I remember his discussion of the—it might have been his wife, I am not sure of which one it was, the uneven man to woman ratio in Russia. And I don't know that that occurred that night or sometime previous on another occasion. It might have occurred on another occasion with his wife only present, but that fact was brought out about the uneven ratio, and I got the impression that might have been one of the reasons that she jumped at a chance to marry someone.
An FBI man pointed out to me that this was not very logical because of the differences in the age. She is very young, and the people were—who were killed off in World War II would be in my generation of 40 or 50 years old and there might not be much competition there. But that was the impression I got. Then there was also something mentioned about the treatment of the Cubans. It seems they lived near a place where there were Cubans.
Mr.Jenner. It seems what?
Mr.Glover. It seems they were living at or near a place where Cubans who had been brought from Cuba by the Communist regime were being indoctrinated.
Mr.Jenner. This is while they were in Russia?
Mr.Glover. This is while they were in Russia, yes.
Mr.Jenner. Then it must have been in the town, at least they knew of some Cubans being in Russia?
Mr.Glover. I used the words "being indoctrinated," because I assume this is what was going on. I don't think he used that word.
Mr.Jenner. Did he indicate that he had any contact with them?
Mr.Glover. Nothing specifically that I remember was said about having actual contact with individuals, but quite a bit was said about the treatment. Actual contact, I don't know whether he said that, but it didn't stick in my mind that he had any actual contact, but they did talk about the way they were treated, and he gave the impression they were really treated well.
Mr.Jenner. The Cubans were?
Mr.Glover. The Cubans were really treated well and given everything they wanted, and lots of girls for them, and the girls all fell for the Cubans, as it were, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Did Oswald express views with respect to Castro and the Cubans?
Mr.Glover. I could not remember any specific view about them, but I got the impression from his description of the Cubans who were there, that he might have been trying to create the impression that the Cubans were very much accepted by the Russians. Apparently, in all this conversation, I believe he was being very cagey about making statements, but he would give the impression that these people must have been pretty nice. They were being treated so by the Russians. Actually, he gave it as a matter of fact that they were being treated very well. I don't remember him having said anything specifically about his liking or not liking the Cubans or Castro.
Mr.Jenner. Anything else that occurred that evening with respect to conversation and his political views and life in Russia that you now recall?
Mr.Glover. No; I don't think there is anything that I recall right at the moment.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine take part in these discussions?
Mr.Glover. Yes; she talked to both Oswald and she talked to his wife very much.
Mr.Jenner. When she talked to Marina, in what language did she speak?
Mr.Glover. Well, I believe what she said, she said in Russian. I don't believe Marina was able to converse in English.
Mr.Jenner. Did she translate for Marina?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I believe she did.
Mr.Jenner. Did Oswald translate for her?
Mr.Glover. Marina, I cannot be sure about that. I don't remember that he did.
Mr.Jenner. This was in a house or in an apartment?
Mr.Glover. It was in a house.
Mr.Jenner. Did the women kind of move around and the men gather together, or would, as sometimes happens at meetings of this nature, were you all gathered generally in the same room or the same general vicinity and everybody take part in the social intercourse and interplay?
Mr.Glover. Well, I don't remember any particular pattern. The only person who would talk very much to Marina was Ruth Paine, because she was the only woman.
Mr.Jenner. What about the De Mohrenschildts? Did they just drop in and leave right away?
Mr.Glover. They stayed a very brief time.
Mr.Jenner. Did the De Mohrenschildts take part? There wasn't anybody other than Mrs. Paine, or possibly Lee Oswald, to translate for Marina, is that a fair statement?
Mr.Glover. That's right. The De Mohrenschildts did not come in at the beginning of the evening. They came sometime, if I remember, around 9 o'clock and stayed a short while and left.
Mr.Jenner. Did your guests press Oswald as to his political views?
Mr.Glover. Yes; he had been in Russia. He didn't think very much of that. He didn't think much of the United States' system, but what it was about the system, he didn't know.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, they pressed him so they backed him in a corner, to use the vernacular, and he had no real answers?
Mr.Glover. That's right. I think they ascertained that pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. He just reiterated, "I am a Marxist," or "I believe in communism," or I have these ideals, but I haven't found the ideal site anywhere? So far, that is a fairly general statement?
Mr.Glover. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. Since I said so much about it, is there anything you want to elaborate on in that connection?
Mr.Glover. No; I think what you said I agree to, that he was essentially more on the defensive. They asked him, as I just stated, what is the answer, and he essentially stated he didn't know the answer.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any impression as to why, if you had an impression at all, why this man did not want his wife to learn English? And if so, what was that impression?
Mr.Glover. Well, the impression I had was simply one of maybe wanting to control her, but I did not think of anything beyond the usual situation which can happen with a man and his wife, where one person of the two is much, is very much the dominating person.
Mr.Jenner. Did you feel he was the dominating person in the couple?
Mr.Glover. I certainly did, because in the first place, the story I heard was they were trying to find a place for Marina where she could get away from him, but this later time they appeared to get along, so I assumed she was staying with him.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have of him then and subsequently, as to whether he was a stable person?
Mr.Glover. I did not think of stability at all, because he was fairly well behaved at the times I saw him. It is true, I did not think he was very candid, but Ifelt——
Mr.Jenner. You did not think he was very candid?
Mr.Glover. I did not think he was very candid, no; but I felt that whatever he was doing, he was able to get along in some way. But I had the impression of his being a ne'er-do-well sort of fellow, who would go from one place to another, never making adjustments very well. I did not get the impression, as I stated before, I did not get the impression of him being violent, which later came out,and——
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impression as to whether he was a man who was well-adjusted, poorly adjusted, or otherwise?
Mr.Glover. Well, in the sense that if a person's whole philosophy of life, what he lives by, is very much in doubt, I would say from that point of view, he was poorly adjusted. From the point of view, possibly of his ability to get along in some fashion, he had one job and he had another job—I mean he apparently worked in Fort Worth and then he got a job in Dallas, and after he left here he went to New Orleans and got a job, and he was able to get along in some fashion, but obviously he was poorly adjusted as far as his whole living was concerned.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have an opinion of how much maturity, a person lacking in maturity, or what view, if any, do you have in that connection, or did you acquire?
Mr.Glover. Well, in the sense that a person is not mature until he discovers what he is living by, he certainly was very immature. He apparently never did develop any set rules by which he lived by, in spite of his purported Marxism. Apparently the dominating thing in this—in his life was that he had grown up in a poor environment, and I am getting this from what I have read in the newspapers. It is sort of hindsight.
Mr.Jenner. Try to keep that out as much as possible. I am trying to get your impression gleaned from the times you met the man.
Mr.Glover. Well, I would say that I didn't really have any impression of great instability. But I had the impression that he didn't know what he wanted at all.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impression that he was not capable of knowing what he wanted? I don't mean mental operation. I mean a man whose background was so shallow, and education so limited, that he really had no capacity for determining in any reasonable capacity since, what his regions of reaching and desires were?
Mr.Glover. Well, I would guess, I thought at the time that a person in his situation who had done the things he did, it looked like if he had never discovered what he wanted to live by by that time, that he probably never would discover what he was going to live by—of course I didn't keep contact with him after this meeting—and, consequently, had no further chance to observe him.
Mr.Jenner. I am going to talk about that in a moment.
Mr.Glover. Okay.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get any impression of him as to whether he felt the world had treated him poorly and he had any grudge as to the world, his lotin life, if not directed toward any person, that he decided he would rationalize to avoid self-analysis?
Mr.Glover. I didn't get a very strong impression of that at all at the time. I think he was particularly well behaved when we met him, because I think he was pretty much flattered that someone else would take an interest in him, and I think he ate this up to be questioned about something by somebody who might have some status in society where he didn't have any. But I didn't get the impression that he was terribly bitter about this. I got the impression he was very unsatisfied and unadjusted, maladjusted. He didn't make any adjustment.
Mr.Jenner. During the conversation, did he make any remarks, that you recall, concerning the United States?
Mr.Glover. No; he did not make any remarks, except the remarks about the system not being a satisfactory one.
Mr.Jenner. Was President Kennedy mentioned?
Mr.Glover. I do not believe so.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything as to whether he was involved in or supporting any particular political causes?
Mr.Glover. No; he did not say anything about that at all.
Mr.Jenner. You got no impression that evening as to whether he might or could be or was—might be or could be or was a person given to violence?
Mr.Glover. No; I did not get the impression that he was given to violence, except for the fact that he had mistreated his wife, apparently, according to the De Mohrenschildts. They led me to think that he might take out his aggression, as a psychologist might say, but certainly not the violence of the type of the assassination or something like this.
Mr.Jenner. That is the last occasion that you saw the Oswalds?
Mr.Glover. Essentially that is the last. I hedge a little bit on this because I faintly recollect that De Mohrenschildt came by the house where I was living once, and he may have had Oswald with him, but it was nothing but a passing meeting. If it existed, I am not quite sure. It was nothing of significance that existed.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see or meet, or were you present at any time subsequent to this meeting when Marina was present?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I was present at one time. Let's see now, the sequence of events after that were, De Mohrenschildt left for Haiti sometime in early May. I am not really sure whether it is before they left. I guess it might have been before they left, or right after they left. I had a record player which they had loaned me.
Mr.Jenner. From the De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Glover. The De Mohrenschildts had loaned me, and when Pierce and Schmidt moved in, they had record players, and they (De Mohrenschildts) wanted to give the record player to Marina.
Mr.Jenner. The De Mohrenschildts?
Mr.Glover. Yes; I had the record player, so one night when Pierce and I were going to visit a friend for dinner, a fellow by the name of Bob Tabbert, who I used to work with, we brought the record player with us and left it off at Marina's place.
Now at that time I knew where they lived, because I picked them up before at Elsbeth, and this time it was in the evening and we drove up by the apartment where they lived, and just as we drove up, Marina was wheeling her baby on the side of the road, and it was obvious she was going somewhere else, and it was difficult to communicate with her, but apparently she knew about the record player, and she pointed up to a house, and we drove and waited in the street until she went to a door in the house, and we understood she lived there, and it was somewhat of a ramshackled house, and it was around the corner, I don't know the name of the street, I could find it, I'm sure, it was thefirst——
Mr.Jenner. Neely Street?
Mr.Glover. I don't remember the name. I could find the street, because it was the first street on the left going north on Elsbeth.
Mr.Jenner. In any event, this was an apartment building or home different from the one in which you picked them up in February of 1963?
Mr.Glover. That's right. So I gave her the record player.
Mr.Jenner. Gave it to her?
Mr.Glover. That's right. That is what De Mohrenschildt asked me to do.
Mr.Jenner. Lee Oswald did not appear on the scene at that time?
Mr.Glover. No; he was not there.
Mr.Jenner. Did you know he was not there?
Mr.Glover. No; I didn't know he was not there; no. Well, I am not sure about that. Seems to me, yes, that I asked if her husband was there, because the record player had been standing waiting to be taken over there for sometime when we were going, and it had fallen off and had the arm damaged, and I could not converse with her, and I tried to explain, and I asked if her husband was there, and I had the impression he wasn't there, and I am not sure about that.
Mr.Jenner. Then what we have referred to was the last contact you had with Marina?
Mr.Glover. That was the last time I saw her.
Mr.Jenner. Did Mrs. Paine ever talk to you about Marina at any time thereafter?
Mr.Glover. The Paines, either one or the other, talked to me after that time. On one occasion I got a call on the telephone, I am not sure whether it was Mr. or Mrs. Paine, in which they said the record player—I believe it was the same one I had given or taken over to her that belonged to the De Mohrenschildts, was there at their house, and that she—first of all, the events after that went like this.
The De Mohrenschildts left and they told me Oswald lost his job and had gone to New Orleans. Then I believe it was only later through the Paines that I learned, I believe it was a telephone conversation, that Marina was staying there with them, or had been staying with them, and also left to go to New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. This was in the spring of 1963?
Mr.Glover. This was sometime after the first of May. And I think at this time I learned through them that Marina had gone to join him in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. Was anything said about Mrs. Paine having taken Marina to New Orleans?
Mr.Glover. Nothing was said about her taking her to New Orleans, but I do believe I knew at that time that Marina had stayed with her. I think I learned it through conversation with them. I don't remember having heard from or seen the Paines since the time they were at my house until the time that I have learned Marina had gone to New Orleans and had previously stayed with Ruth. And until the time that Mike came over and delivered the record player. I think Mike was the one who brought the record player, and I don't remember the circumstances on that, but I believe it was he. I am not sure I was home. I am not sure about that.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, that letter that De Mohrenschildt wrote you from Haiti, does this refresh your recollection more exactly as to his remarks about what you have testified:
"It is interesting, but before we began to help Marina and the child, we asked the FBI man in Dallas or in Fort Worth about Lee, and he told us he was completely harmless?"
Mr.Glover. Yes; he used the word harmless, but I wasn't sure I was quoting what he said.
Mr.Jenner. Are you recounting a sequence of events with respect to Marina?
Mr.Glover. Yes; so I learned, at the time they brought the record player, that she had gone to New Orleans.
Then the only other connection I had with them was that later than that, and now again I am not quite sure about the date, but it seems it must have been after I was married and I was still living on Southwestern, but I got a call from one of the Paines saying they had records that the De Mohrenschildts had given Marina. These were for Russian speaking people learning English, I believe, that they had, and what to do with them?
And I said, bring them over here and I will store them. And I remember talking, and I remember Michael Paine brought the records over to me and came in the house, and I talked with him a little bit. At this time Michael Paine told me the last information I had about them. He told me that, I amnot sure whether he said they were back, Marina was coming back, or Marina had already come back to Dallas, that Lee had lost his job and that Lee was coming back, and that was in the time Ibelieve——
Mr.Jenner. Was coming back to live or was visiting?
Mr.Glover. Well, was coming back. Presumably he lost his job and was coming back here.
Mr.Jenner. Lost his job in New Orleans?
Mr.Glover. Right; and he was coming back here to live. That is the last I heard of them until the event of November 22d.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, is there anything Mr. Glover, that has occurred to you that you would like to add to the record that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy and any of the people about which I have questioned you, and—or anything else that you think might help the Commission in the task of ascertaining the basic facts and truths with respect to that tragic event?
Mr.Glover. I don't believe there is anything else I have of any value to add.
Mr.Jenner. Now you understand the Rules of the Commission. You may, if you wish, read over your testimony, and it will be available to you next week if you wish to do so. If not, you have the privilege of waiving that right should you so desire. You also have the privilege of signing the deposition, if you prefer to do that. That is, read and sign it. And you also have the privilege of waiving that right. Do you have any reaction on either of those subjects at the moment?
Mr.Glover. I don't have any reaction. I consider this as, because I don't know very much about the legal aspects, I consider this to be a technicality. Maybe I should ask someone.
Mr.Jenner. Frankly, it is not anything of great moment, but if you wish to, if you prefer—that you read your deposition over it will be available to you next week, should you so desire.
Mr.Glover. I believe so. I think I would like to read it.
Mr.Jenner. I would think that it would be about Tuesday. If you will call here and ask for me or ask for Mr. Liebeler, your transcript will be available. And if you have any changes or corrections call them to our attention and we will make them either on the face of the deposition or ask you to be resworn and then you state the corrections or additions.
Mr.Glover. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. With this I have no further questions. I have only this to say, that I appreciate your appearing here voluntarily and inconveniencing yourself, and to the extent I had to inquire into your personal life, I hope you realize that it is part of my job and nothing personal on my part.
Mr.Glover. I have something to say also. I think that it is not a question of my doing anyone a favor. I consider it a duty to tell what I know about such a situation.
Mr.Jenner. All right, that is where we are at the moment.
The testimony of Carlos Bringuier was taken on April 7–8, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Carlos Bringuier, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy.
Staff members have been authorized to take testimony of witnesses, including you, by the Commission, pursuant to authority granted to the Commission byExecutive Order No. 11130 dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you last week, stating that I would contact you in connection with the taking of your testimony. I understand that he sent with his letter a copy of the Executive order and resolution to which I have just referred as well as a copy of the rules of procedure of the Commission relating to the taking of testimony of witnesses.
Did you receive Mr. Rankin's letter?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir; I received it.
Mr.Liebeler. And you received copies of the documents that I have referred to?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right. I received.
Mr.Liebeler. The Commission is interested in learning from you, Mr. Bringuier, about the contact that you had with Lee Harvey Oswald while he was present in New Orleans in the summer and early fall of 1963. Before we get into the details of that testimony, however, will you state your full name for the record.
Mr.Bringuier. Carlos Bringuier.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your address, Mr. Bringuier?
Mr.Bringuier. Excuse me one moment. May I explain to you? In Cuba we use a long name with a lot of middle names. Do you want the whole middle name too?
Mr.Liebeler. No; I think that is enough.
Mr.Bringuier. It is enough? O.K.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mr.Bringuier. I live in 501 Adele Street, Apartment F.
Mr.Liebeler. Here in New Orleans?
Mr.Bringuier. Here in New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born?
Mr.Bringuier. I was born in Havana, June 22, 1934.
Mr.Liebeler. How long did you live in Havana?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, I was living in Havana until May 4, 1960. I left Havana to Guatemala and Argentina, and I came to the States in February 8, 1961.
Mr.Liebeler. You came then to New Orleans, is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That day I arrived to Miami, Florida, and I was in Miami for 10 days, and I came to New Orleans in February 18, 1961.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you been here in New Orleans ever since?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. You are a Cuban national, is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you presently employed?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. What do you do?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, I am a salesman, retail clothing store with the name of Casa Roca, 107 Decatur Street. I am a salesman and manager of the store.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been so employed?
Mr.Bringuier. I started to work in that store in October 1, 1962.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you been employed here in New Orleans prior to that time?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir; I was working for 1 year in Ward's Discount House, 708 Canal Street.
Mr.Liebeler. You worked there as a salesman also?
Mr.Bringuier. As a salesman also.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your educational background?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, I was attorney in Cuba and assistant secretary for the criminal court in Havana. I got my degree in 1957.
Mr.Liebeler. Your degree in what field?
Mr.Bringuier. Law.
Mr.Liebeler. In law?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. So you then were trained as a lawyer inCuba——
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Prior to the time that Castro came to power? Is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. And did you actually practice law in Cuba?
Mr.Bringuier. Not actually, no. I didn't practice law, because I was working, as I told you, in the criminal court, and in Havana, in Cuba, when you was employee of the criminal court, you could not practice law.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you become a member of the bar in Cuba or do some act that is similar of becoming a member of the bar here in the United States?
Mr.Bringuier. No; I didn't do any act to become here in United States member of bar.
Mr.Liebeler. But in Cuba?
Mr.Bringuier. In Cuba, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You actually were a member of the bar in Cuba?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. It is my understanding that you have been active in the Anti-Castro Movement here in New Orleans. Is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in understanding that you left Cuba because of your feeling against the Castro regime and your opposition to that regime?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct. I did not believe in it, I did not agree with the Communist regime in Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. As a result, you left Cuba and came to the United States? Is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Has your family joined you here in the United States?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, when I went to Argentina, I went with my wife and the three kids at that moment, and after I came to the United States alone, and 2 months later they met me here in the States. I want to explain that I am not in the States as a Cuban refugee but as an immigrant, as a resident.
Mr.Liebeler. And as an immigrant from Cuba, or from someother——
Mr.Bringuier. From Cuba [producing document].
Mr.Liebeler. You have shown me an identification card from the Department of Immigration and Naturalization, indicating that you were admitted to the United States as an immigrant on February 8, 1961. Is that correct?
Mr.Bringuier. That is correct.
(Document returned to witness.)
Mr.Liebeler. I am correct in understanding, am I not, that you have been involved to one degree or another in Anti-Castro activities here in New Orleans since your arrival?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir; soon after I arrived here to New Orleans, I founded a Newsletter for the Cubans with the name of Crusada. That was my first work here in New Orleans. After that I joined, at the beginning of 1962, the New Orleans Delegation of the Cuban Revolutionary Council, and I was working as Secretary of Publicity and Propaganda here in New Orleans for the Cuban Anti-Castro. That was, I believe, June or July—June 1962. After that, I resigned, and in July 1962 I was designated New Orleans delegate of the Cuban Student Directorate, and I am in that position from that time to now.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Bringuier. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time when you met Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us when that was and the circumstances of the event.
Mr.Bringuier. Well, the first day that I saw Lee Harvey Oswald was on August 5, 1963, but before we go deeper in this matter about Oswald, I think that I would like to explain to you two things that I think will facilitate the Commission to understand my feeling at that moment.
Mr.Liebeler. That is perfectly all right. Go ahead.
Mr.Bringuier. And you see, in August 24, 1962, my organization, the Cuban Student Directorate, carry on a shelling of Havana, and a few days later when person from the FBI contacted me here in New Orleans—his name was Warren C. de Brueys. Mr. de Brueys was talking to me in the Thompson Cafeteria.At that moment I was the only one from the Cuban Student Directorate here in the city, and he was asking to me about my activities here in the city, and when I told him that I was the only one, he didn't believe that, and he advised me—and I quote, "We could infiltrate your organization and find out what you are doing here." My answer to him was, "Well, you will have to infiltrate myself, because I am the only one." And I want to put this out, because after the assassination of Mr. Kennedy, when I was interviewed, I told something that some part of the press or some persons now are trying to use to tell that maybe Oswald was a man from the FBI or the CIA. I will go into that later on.
After that, after my conversation with de Brueys, I always was waiting that maybe someone will come to infiltrate my organization from the FBI, because I already was told by one of the FBI agent that they will try to infiltrate my organization.
Next thing is this: On August 2, 1963, I receive in my store—I have over there the office of the delegation too, the visit of two Cubans, who told me that they had already desert from one Anti-Castro training camp that was across Lake Pontchartrain here in New Orleans. Until that moment I did not know nothing about that Anti-Castro training camp here in the city, and they told me that that Anti-Castro training camp was a branch of the Christian Democratic Movement—that is another Anti-Castro organization—and they told me that they had the fear inside the training camp that there was a Castro agent inside that training camp.
A few days before, too, the police found here in New Orleans about 1 mile from that training camp a big lot of ammunition and weapons and all those things, and when Oswald came to me on August 5 I had inside myself the feeling, well, maybe this is from the FBI, or maybe this is a Communist, because the FBI already had told me that maybe they will infiltrate my organization, but that feeling—I only had that feeling on August 5, because 4 days later I was convinced that Oswald was not an FBI agent and that he was a Pro-Castro agent.
When I told that to the press after the assassination, I saw in some magazines that I was not sure if he was an FBI or not, and that is not the truth, because on August 9, 3 months before the assassination, I was sure that he was a Pro-Castro and not an FBI. I want to have that clear.
Mr.Liebeler. To summarize your statement, when Oswald came to see you on August5——
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. You were suspicious of him on two different counts?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. One, that he might possibly have been an infiltrator working for the FBI?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. And you were worried about this because of what Agent de Brueys had said toyou——
Mr.Bringuier. A year ago.
Mr.Liebeler. Almost a year prior to that time?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You were also concerned about the possibility that Oswald might have been a Communist or a Castro agent of some sort, who was trying to infiltrate your organization on behalf of that group?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right. Now that day, on August 5, I was talking in the store with one young American—the name of him is Philip Geraci—and 5 minutes later Mr. Oswald came inside the store. He start to look around, several articles, and he show interest in my conversation with Geraci. I was explaining to Geraci that our fight is a fight of Cubans and that he was too young, that if he want to distribute literature against Castro, I would give him the literature but not admit him to the fight.
At that moment also he start to agree with I, Oswald start to agree with my point of view and he show real interest in the fight against Castro. He told me that he was against Castro and that he was against communism. He toldme—he asked me first for some English literature against Castro, and I gave him some copies of the Cuban report printed by the Cuban Student Directorate.
After that, Oswald told me that he had been in the Marine Corps and that he had training in guerrilla warfare and that he was willing to train Cubans to fight against Castro. Even more, he told me that he was willing to go himself to fight against Castro. That was on August 5.
I turned down his offer. I told him that I don't have nothing to do with military activities, that my only duties here in New Orleans are propaganda and information and not military activities. That was my answer to him.
He insisted, and he told me that he will bring to me next day one book as a present, as a gift to me, to train Cubans to fight against Castro.
Before heleft——
Mr.Liebeler. Was Geraci present throughout this entire conversation?
Mr.Bringuier. Pardon?
Mr.Liebeler. Was Mr. Geraci present throughout this entire conversation that you had with Oswald?
Mr.Bringuier. I think so, yes, sir; yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there a Mr. Blalock there?
Mr.Bringuier. Who?
Mr.Liebeler. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k. Do you remember him?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, there was another young boy. What was his name did you say?
Mr.Liebeler. Blalock, B-l-a-l-o-c-k.
Mr.Bringuier. I could not tell you, because I don't remember the name of the other boy who was there, but I think that I saw him just one time in my life. Geraci was with another person over there, another young boy,and——
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald mention during this conversation that he could easily derail a train, for example, by securing and fastening a chain around the railroad track? Do you remember him mentioning something like that?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, you see; I do not exactly remember all the details, because we were talking for about—I believe about 1 hour, something like that, and at that moment I didn't know what was going to happen and I didn't pay too much attention to all the things that was being telling over there, but the result of the conversation were this that I am telling to you. Maybe he mentioned that. I could not tell to you that he mentioned that, because I am not—I don't remember. He could have mentioned that, because he was talking about the experience that he had in guerrilla warfare in the Marine Corps.
Before he left the store, he put his hand in the pocket and he offered me money.
Mr.Liebeler. Oswald did?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How much did he offer you?
Mr.Bringuier. Well, I don't know. As soon as he put the hand in the pocket and he told me, "Well, at least let me contribute to your group with some money," at that moment I didn't have the permit from the city hall here in New Orleans to collect money in the city, and I told him that I could not accept his money, and I told him that if he want to contribute to our group, he could send the money directly to the headquarters in Miami, because they had the authorization over there in Miami, and I gave him the number of the post office box of the organization in Miami.
And after that, I left the store, because I had to go to the bank to make the deposit, and Oswald was in the store talking to my brother-in-law—that is my partner in the store—Rolando Pelaez.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that P-e-l-a-e-z?
Mr.Bringuier. That is right. Oswald was talking to him for about half an hour, and later on when I came back from the bank I asked to my brother-in-law, "Well, what do you think about this guy who was here?"
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you his name was Lee Oswald?
Mr.Bringuier. Yes; he told me that his name was Lee Oswald, and he told me one address in Magazine Street, but I didn't remember at that moment the number, and when I asked to my brother-in-law that, he told me that Oswaldlooked like really a smart person and really interested in the fight against communism, and he gave to my brother a good impression, and I told my brother that I could not trust him, because—I didn't know what was inside of me, but I had some feeling that I could not trust him. I told that to my brother that day. Next day, on August 6, Oswald came back to the store, but I was not in the store at that moment, and he left with my brother-in-law a Guidebook for Marines for me with the name "L. H. Oswald" in the top of the first page. When I came back to the store, my brother-in-law gave to me the Guidebook for Marines. I was looking in the Guidebook for Marines. I found interest in it and I keep it, and later—I forgot about that just for 3 days more—on August 9 I was coming back to the store at 2 o'clock in the afternoon, and one friend of mine with the name of Celso Hernandez came to me and told me that in Canal Street there was a young man carrying a sign telling "Viva Fidel" in Spanish, and some other thing about Cuba, but my friend don't speak nothing in English, and the only thing that he understood was the "Viva Fidel" in Spanish. He told me that he was blaming the person in Spanish, but that the person maybe didn't understood what he was telling to him and he came to me to let me know what was going on over there.
At that moment was in the store another Cuban with the name of Miguel Cruz, and we went all three with a big sign that I have in the store in color. The sign is the Statue of Liberty with a knife in the back, and the hand, knifing her in the back, has the initials of the Soviet Union, and it said, "Danger. Only 90 Miles from the United States Cuba Lies in Chains." We pick up the sign and we went to Canal Street to find the guy.
We were walking all Canal Street to Rampart Street, but we could not find him. We were asking to different people in the street, but nobody saw him, nobody told us, Yes, I saw him, or, He went to this side. I decided to get a Canal streetcar to search for him, and we went in the Canal streetcar until about the 2700 block of Canal Street, and we came back in the Canal streetcar, but we could not find him at that moment.
I went back to the store, but just 3 or 4 minutes later one of my two friends, Miguel Cruz, came back running and told me that the guy was another time in Canal Street and that Celso was watching him over there.
I went over there with the sign another time, and I was surprised when I recognized that the guy with the sign hanging on the chest, said, "Viva Fidel" and "Hands off Cuba," was Lee Harvey Oswald. Until that moment I only knew Oswald as a guy who was offering his service to train Cubans, and when I saw that he was with a sign defending Fidel Castro and praising Fidel Castro, I became angry. That was in the 700 block of Canal Street just in front of the store where I was working my first year here in New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that the International Trade Mart?
Mr.Bringuier. No; Ward Discount House. He make another appearance in the International Trade Mart, later, and I will go into that, too.
When I saw that was Oswald and he recognized me, he was also surprised, but just for a few seconds. Immediately he smiled to me and he offered the hand to shake hands with me. I became more angry and I start to tell him that he don't have any face to do that, with what face he was doing that, because he had just came to me 4 days ago offering me his service and that he was a Castro agent, and I start to blame him in the street.
That was a Friday around 3 o'clock at this moment, and many people start to gather around us to see what was going on over there. I start to explain to the people what Oswald did to me, because I wanted to move the American people against him, not to take the fight for myself as a Cuban but to move the American people to fight him, and I told them that that was a Castro agent, that he was a pro-Communist, and that he was trying to do to them exactly what he did to us in Cuba, kill them and send their children to the execution wall. Those were my phrases at the moment.
The people in the street became angry and they started to shout to him, "Traitor! Communist! Go to Cuba! Kill him!" and some other phrases that I do not know if I could tell in the record.