The testimony of Colin Barnhorst was taken at 11:40 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Albert E. Jenner, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Robert T. Davis, assistant attorney general of Texas, was present.
Mr.Jenner. Please stand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Barnhorst. I do.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Barnhorst, I am Albert E. Jenner, Jr., a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission which was authorized to be created by Senate Joint Resolution 137, and President Johnson in Executive Order 11130, appointed the Commission and specified its powers pursuant to the legislation I have just identified to you. The duties of the Commission are to investigate the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy on the 22nd of November 1963.
And that entails our inquiry into various facts and circumstances and incidents, some of them involving a man known as Lee Harvey Oswald. We understand that Mr. Oswald was a guest at the YMCA here in downtown Dallas, and we would like to ask you a question or two in that respect.
Mr.Jenner. What is your age, by the way?
Mr.Barnhorst. Twenty-one.
Mr.Jenner. Are you employed by the downtown YMCA here in Dallas?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That is located where?
Mr.Barnhorst. 605 North Ervay.
Mr.Jenner. When did your employment commence?
Mr.Barnhorst. October 14.
Mr.Jenner. What year?
Mr.Barnhorst. 1963.
Mr.Jenner. State the nature of that employment and your hours?
Mr.Barnhorst. Desk clerk and mainly checking in and out guests—that is the primary duty and my duties involve making change and the usual reports and things like that. My hours are from 4 to midnight 4 nights a week.
Mr.Jenner. 4 in the afternoon until midnight 4 nights a week?
Mr.Barnhorst. Then on Friday night—midnight to Saturday morning 8 a.m. every week, and every other week from midnight to 8 a.m., on Thursday night, so I alternate 6 days and 5 days. The particular week of all this I had worked Thursday night also.
Mr.Jenner. Were you on duty at any time so as to bring to your attention the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was or had become a guest at the YMCA?
Mr.Barnhorst. You mean at thetime——
Mr.Jenner. At the time.
Mr.Barnhorst. Well, I wasn't working there when he was a guest. I know when he was there, but I wasn't working there.
Mr.Jenner. That's right. Have you personally examined the records of the YMCA in that respect?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And those records are of what character?
Mr.Barnhorst. They are a daily report on transients in and out with permanents in and out and the number of rooms, and a copy goes to the residence manager and a copy stays at the household and a copy is sent to and, well, it is placed on our desk copy.
Mr.Jenner. And have you examined those records for both the years 1962 and 1963?
Mr.Barnhorst. No; only the month of October 1963.
Mr.Jenner. Only the month of October 1963. In examining that month did you examine each day of the month, that is, the records relating to each day of that month?
Mr.Barnhorst. Originally—yes, and I have looked at them also, actually, I guess for September, because I had stayed there one night and I had looked back to see which room I was in and I was just curious and in looking back—later on—I saw there was a Lee H. Oswald. He was in room 601, because I looked at it last night after the man called me and it is still on the desk.
Mr.Jenner. He occupied the room 601 when?
Mr.Barnhorst. Until the morning or early part of the afternoon of the 4th of October. I say that because the clerk who was on was Eva Marshall. Her name was beside the checkout. So, she was the one who would have checked him out and she works on the day shift and at that time she was working day shift and that would have been about 10 days, I guess, before I went to work there and she was filling in there because the clerk had quit, which is why they hired me. I don't know who the clerk was. I only found the checkout, I didn't ever see the check-in—I think I did see it one time. And I think it was October 3, the day before.
Mr.Jenner. The check-in was October 3?
Mr.Barnhorst. I remember that from sometime ago, but I just happened to see the checkout.
Mr.Jenner. Tell me what kind of records you keep—you keep a receipt?
Mr.Barnhorst. Well, maybe I can describe these when he checks in to see step by step what happens, because there is a little blue card with a stub on it and we call this a transient register card. He fills in his name and the phone number and membership, if any, and a number of other details, if it has anything to do with such as when his membership expires, if he is in the service, his service number or some other things, and then we fill out a triplicate receipt for his room rent. In this case he paid for 1 night and then we give him a receipt and a receipt stays in the register and a receipt goes in the drawer and, of course, we fill out the rest of the stub—the receipt number, the amount paid, and we fill out his name and his room number on the stub and the price of it and so forth for the operator to put his name up on the board, and he came in fairly early on the 3d, because theoperator——
Mr.Jenner. What is the board you mentioned something now about? You mentioned something new.
Mr.Barnhorst. This is a board we have for locating anyone in the building at that time, who is staying in the building. It is a PBX machine and is in the nature of a board up on the wall and it has several sections. It is a flip-type board and you put a little narrow slip of paper with their name and room number on it. That's for the telephone operator.
Now, he must have come in fairly early on the 3d, if he came in in the evening, because in fact, he did come in in the evening. Mr. Barker checked him in because I know the evening operator typed his name in and so that would place him coming in in the evening sometime before 10 o'clock, because that's about when she leaves, and after that they are typed up by the—either the night clerk or the next operator in the morning. Then, in the evening, it is put on a ledger sheet and we have two types—we have one for the permanent guests for theirpersonal account, and for just general transients that pass through, we have a group account. We just put the last name and the amount paid and whether or not they paid a membership fee. And, I might mention he didn't pay a membership fee when he came in. There is only two ways a person can pay that and that is either be in the service or have a membership card and I don't think he was registered as a member. He may have tried to pass himself off as a serviceman, but that's just in passing—that's not on the record—but—then, we make this daily report which is what I saw his name on last night. That is a long sheet and it has a list of room numbers in numerical order and then the name of the person who checked into that room that day and anybody who checked out of the room that day, and any transfers.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Hulen, when he testified a few moments ago, testified with respect to his having checked over receipts showing payment for lodging and he assembled a list and he is going to obtain photostatic copies of them and return them this afternoon and return with them. Are you returning to the YMCA after you leave here?
Mr.Barnhorst. No, I can—it's just across the street.
Mr.Jenner. Well, I would appreciate it if you would speak with Mr. Hulen who made copies of the entries from the records—I would like to have in addition to the copies of the receipts, photostatic copies of the registration card you have mentioned.
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And this is a check-in card, did you call it a check-in card?
Mr.Barnhorst. A transient register card, and do you want the daily report?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Barnhorst. How about this one in our ledger book?
Mr.Jenner. I would like that as well.
Mr.Barnhorst. Because the clerk would be Mr. Michaels, depending on what night of the week it was. Probably Mr. Michaels—chances are it was he that made out that report. He is not with us now, but he didn't report any membership fee paid at the time.
Mr.Jenner. And that would indicate that none was paid?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is there a difference in charge or rate for a room depending upon whether you are a member of the YMCA or a serviceman?
Mr.Barnhorst. From what I know, Mr. Oswald—he should have paid $3.75 or $2.25 for a room, 50 cents for membership and $1 for the key deposit. No doubt he paid the room rent because that's on the record and the key deposit or else he wouldn't have gotten a room, but the key deposit isn't listed in the ledger at all. It is a separate account because we refund it and in the ledger we list memberships and we separate that from the key deposits. Because it is in a separate account. Now, I didn't see any membership fee by his name.
Mr.Jenner. But does an ex-serviceman receive this reduced rate?
Mr.Barnhorst. Not if he has been out a minute or more, at least I never give it to him. Now, I always check the ID cards. Mr. Barker, I believe, does not, but of course any serviceman could rattle off his service number 20 years after he got out and I found that out quite early so I have been checking them and I have had several fellows who were trying to get away with it—they usually had forgotten it or say they would be back in a minute and they don't come back and it was embarrassing to me, and Mr. Barker has been there a long time. He wouldn't write up a membership unless he was a serviceman.
Mr.Jenner. These registration cardsshow——
Mr.Barnhorst. They don't show which one it is.
Mr.Jenner. Would they show the address that the guests gave?
Mr.Barnhorst. We always ask for an address, try to get an address from them. Occasionally we don't. Occasionally they just sort of don't put it on there and you say, "Well, I would like to have an address on there." And they will say, "I plan to stay here." It should show an address on there of some kind.
Mr.Jenner. And among the papers I have asked to have photostated will that appear?
Mr.Barnhorst. If he gave an address, it will be there. Now, I came across one fellow—I told a couple of the FBI men, because so many of them were over there to talk to me—there's always around the YMCA somebody who knows a little about everything, you know these kind of people, but in this case there is a fellow down there who claims that he knew Lee in New Orleans. Now, he is a little character and his IQ matches his height. I'm not making personal opinions, you understand, but this fellow was no end of trouble to me. He did come by and he, I believe, stayed on the same floor, if I remember right.
Mr.Jenner. He was a guest?
Mr.Barnhorst. He was a permanent resident and he was one of these fellows who bounced from job to job every few days but he just happened to bounce in the same town all the time.
Mr.Jenner. What is his name?
Mr.Barnhorst. Joseph R. Hummel.
Mr.Jenner. [Spelling] H-u-m-m-e-l?
Mr.Barnhorst. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Is he still a guest there?
Mr.Barnhorst. No; he moved out 2 or 3 months ago. We have a forwarding address, I believe because his mail isn't here any more—that would indicate a forwarding address. In fact, I believe I put the forwarding address in the box. It's over there and I can probably get it for you.
Mr.Jenner. I wonder if you would do that and also give that to Mr. Hulen and tell him what you told me about that so he can explain it to me.
Mr.Barnhorst. The night watchman over there told me one time—I mentioned "Little" Joe, or heard "Little" Joe talking about it one night and I wouldn't put much stock in it because the night watchman says he has seen fellows come in there from some of these towns and "Little" Joe recognized them and called them by name, and evidently he has been in New Orleans possibly about that time, so if I didn't know that, I would just say the guy was a glory hound, but something like that sometimes a glory hound might be in the right place at the right time. So, the FBI—I don't know whether they did anything about it or not, but I just told them at that time that that wasn't the only person around that I know of that remembers knowing Oswald or when he was there, and if we didn't have the official records to show it.
Apparently he just passed unnoticed, because from the pictures I have seen, he's like a hundred and one guys I have checked in over there, and the only reason I would watch him if I suspected he might be a homosexual or something because in a transient hotel of any kind we watch for them and try to see if they are going to—to see the people they associate with, you know, what is going on and we do watch that. I don't think anyone has said that he associated with anyone, because it has been talked about some.
Now, Mr. Barker, the one who checked him in is the one clerk we have over there who the roof could fall in on—just so it didn't fall in over the part that was his desk—it wouldn't matter.
Mr.Jenner. It wouldn't matter to Barker?
Mr.Barnhorst. No.
Mr.Jenner. Is he still working there?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; he's about 79. He just lives and lets live. He checks them in and checks them out. Somehow, maybe it's better that way but I have never heard him, of course, say anything one way or the other, about it.
Mr.Jenner. What hours does Barker have?
Mr.Barnhorst. He works the same hours I do—four to midnight except he works the three nights of the week that I don't and then works on Saturday and Sunday from 8 a.m. to 4 p.m. He and I share the weekend pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. All right, Barker checked in Oswald, according to your records?
Mr.Barnhorst. According to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. On those records?
Mr.Barnhorst. Right. And Eva Marshall is the one who checked him out, and I am personally pretty positive it was Mr. Barker because the telephone operator that was on with him said that that is true.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Barker signed the receipt of payment of $3.25, for this day on October 3 and 4?
Mr.Barnhorst. It was $3.25 then?
Mr.Jenner. It says $3.25.
Mr.Barnhorst. It should have been $3.25, you see.
Mr.Jenner. And Mr. Barker apparently charged him out on the 18th of October 1962, and he paid $2.25 for the last day of that 4-day stay in October 1962. Mr. Burge apparently checked him in because the receipt is signed by Mr. Burge, on the 15th of October.
Mr.Barnhorst. If they still do the same thing as they did then that would pinpoint the time when he came in. Mr. Burge relieves us in the evening for our lunch hour, which is usually half an hour and that falls invariably between 5 and 7 because the cafeteria closes at 7:30.
Mr.Jenner. So, with Mr. Burge checking the man in, that would indicate that was at night or in the evening?
Mr.Barnhorst. In the evening.
Mr.Jenner. It would be sometime after 4 in the afternoon?
Mr.Barnhorst. Sometime after 5, because he wouldn't come in until 5.
Mr.Jenner. And if Mr. Barker either checked somebody in or checked somebody out, that would appear, wouldn't it?
Mr.Barnhorst. It depends on the day of the week. If it was on the weekend, it would be between 8 and 4. It would—if it was on a weekevening, I mean a weekday, it would be in the evening. That's presuming, of course, I'm pretty sure he worked the same shift then as he does now. Of course I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Well, October 15, 1962, was a Monday?
Mr.Barnhorst. A Monday—well, then, that meant that he was very possibly working the shift I am working now, because he's off Monday and Tuesday now, but that would still be in the evening. I am presuming that he wasn't working full time for us then.
Mr.Jenner. But if he did work, it was at night?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes. I'm pretty sure it would be. I don't think he was ever a day clerk.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I appreciate very much your coming in. You have been helpful and if you will relate to Mr. Hulen my desire for these additional records, photostatic copies, I would appreciate it. He said he was going to return about 2 o'clock this afternoon.
Mr.Barnhorst. All right.
Mr.Jenner. If he has those, you might speak with him—you see he is in the health department.
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I don't know just how familiar he is with these records, but he may be able to explain them.
Mr.Barnhorst. He might and he might not be. He probably might not be familiar with the midnight reports. We make these daily reports where his name would be at the desk.
Mr.Jenner. Where the guest's name would appear at the desk?
Mr.Barnhorst. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Jenner. The name of the guest.
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; it would be, on a permanent form. We have a sheaf of papers—we have a stack this high [indicating] and it goes back, that goes back to Noah and if we had Noah, it would be on that. It had everybody's else's name on there and it would go back oh, I know of course it covers Oswald because I saw it on there.
Mr.Jenner. You actually saw it?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As a matter of fact as late as last night?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; and I remember it was "Lee H." Now, it doesn't necessarily mean on that report that the card was filled out "Lee H." It could have been filled out in the whole name, we abbreviate the names for space.
Mr.Jenner. Now, that room 601, was the room he occupied on the 3d of October 1963, or was it the room he occupied in 1962?
Mr.Barnhorst. In 1963. I didn't see the one in 1962.
Mr.Jenner. Whatever room number he occupied on his earlier stay in 1962—appears on these records you have described?
Mr.Barnhorst. Well; I would say it would be there unless it had been mutilated, and it's double checked by this Mr. McRee's secretary. He is the resident manager. It is double checked by her to see that all the stubs are matched by name on the check-in and all of the blue cards are matched by the name on the checkout, just in case there are two of them stuck together.
Mr.Jenner. I hesitate to press you but in view of your great familiarity with the records, if you would not be horribly inconvenienced, it would be helpful to me if you would return with those registration records, because you know how to explain them, at 2 o'clock, with Mr. Hulen.
Mr.Barnhorst. The photostats or the originals?
Mr.Jenner. The photostats.
Mr.Barnhorst. At 2 o'clock?
Mr.Jenner. Please, and you would be in a position to say that the photostats that you produce are actually photostats of the records and cards that you personally saw in the YMCA.
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And if you will return, then I will not close your deposition now, but I will wait until 2 o'clock. Thank you very much. I appreciate your coming in.
Mr.Barnhorst. Well, I realize this is just details that you have to have.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; that's right.
Mr.Barnhorst. I'll be back at 2 o'clock.
Mr.Jenner. All right, thank you.
(At this point the witness Barnhorst was excused from the deposing room and returned to same at 2 p.m. on this same day, April 1, 1964, and his deposition was continued as follows:)
Mr.Jenner. Now, the balance of Mr. Barnhorst's deposition. You thought you might be able to obtain some records for me, Mr. Barnhorst.
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, sir; I was not able to obtain the blue card record. The FBI has that. That's the notice from Mr. McRee in his handwriting.
Mr.Jenner. "The FBI"—I am reading the note, "The FBI has the register cards for October 3, 1963. 1962 has been destroyed and we didn't keep them that long."
Mr.Barnhorst. This is a sample register card just for your own information.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Barnhorst has given me a sample of the blue "transient register card," which he described this morning. The card is entitled, "Transient register card." It has a stub entitled "Transient," and is light blue in color. We will mark it Hulen Exhibit No. 8.
Mr.Barnhorst. And that Toro, Calif.—I can identify that as a Marine base, I believe, you've probably heard the name of it.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Barnhorst. That would have appeared as an address on the blue card in October 1963, because that's the only place where Mr. Barker could have gotten the information.
Mr.Jenner. The receipt as to that occasion which I have described in the record, dated October 3, 1963, Lee H. Oswald, opposite the word "address," does have "Toro, Calif." So, in the normal course, I take it that that address would have been furnished to the registration clerk, and in this case, Mr. Barker?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; it would be on the blue card.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; the blue card, the sample of which you have furnished me?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; also, Mr. McRee, the resident manager, says that Mr. Oswald produced an identification card, which is not hard to believe because he could have simply claimed to have lost it, his ID, when he was in the service, and had them make him another one and turn in the one he had made. I've seen fellows do that quite often. It is usually used for getting into PX's and USO's. This is from our ledger sheets, these I have here that are dated in the red left-hand column—everywhere there is a red checkmark on there, Mr. Oswald's name appears with a receipt number, the amount paid, his last name, also that he never paid any membership fees, but only the room fees.
Mr.Jenner. All right, you have handed me three cards from the original records of the downtown YMCA—they are three sheets.
Mr.Barnhorst. Written on both sides.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; written on both sides. I will mark them commencing with the earliest date on the exhibits, as Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9, 10, and 11. Would you identify the sheets? What are they, what kind of record?
Mr.Barnhorst. They are original ledger sheets for a transient guest and they are for the purpose of recording temporarily that the registrar has paid certain fees, because oftentimes they lose their receipts. They come down and we copy into this register—which is placed in a file, the amount that they paid. It is to guarantee that there is no confusion on the amount that is paid.
Mr.Jenner. And do these three register cards that I have in my hand cover all the month of October 1963?
Mr.Barnhorst. No, sir; they don't.
Mr.Jenner. I'm sorry, do they cover the month of October 1962?
Mr.Barnhorst. I don't know whether they do—I doubt it—I think they would only cover the days before and after the time which you are interested in. They cover from October—October 15th through October 19th.
Mr.Jenner. May I call your attention to the last of the cards, which is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 11, the first entry on which is dated October 2, 1963, and that is for 1963, I'm sure?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; the 1962 cards, marked Hulen Exhibits Nos. 9 and 10, respectively, run from October 15th through October 19th.
Mr.Jenner. And they consist of two sheets?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. In selecting these two sheets covering the 15th through the 19th, did you examine the ledger sheets for the balance of the month?
Mr.Barnhorst. No, sir; Mr. McRee did.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. McRee did so?
Mr.Barnhorst. And he told me those are the only cards that have Mr. Oswald's name on them.
Mr.Jenner. So, they were selected from the ledger cards for October 1963, those which had some entry thereon with respect to Oswald?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes. It was done by the receipt numbers, also.
Mr.Jenner. It was doublechecked, so that there appears a—on the third line of the 1962, card commencing with October 15th, an entry under date of October 15th, reciting item No. 18198 and the name, "Oswald," and $2.25 and under the column, "balance," there is a strike line, and—indicating nothing due.
Mr.Barnhorst. Pardon me, that balance is not used for the purpose of something due. We substitute for that a membership fee. That strike line means he did not have a membership fee.
Mr.Jenner. There is a similar entry for the 16th, the 17th, and the 18th. These records then are for the recording of the fact that Oswald was a guest on those days, and that he paid the amounts of money recorded on the ledger sheets, which in turn correspond with the receipts which Mr. Hulen brought in?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. The third of these ledger sheets—the first entry is opposite a date in 1963—October 2, 1963. I take it this ledger sheet was selected from among all of the ledger sheets for the month of October 1963, because it records the name Oswald on October 3, 1963, item No. 15593, $2.25—is that correct?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes. I have seen all of the ledger sheets for October 1963.
Mr.Jenner. And this is the only one that has any entry on it with respect to Oswald?
Mr.Barnhorst. That's the only one.
Mr.Jenner. And that one entry that does have, corresponds with the receipt on that date, produced by Mr. Hulen?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. May we have these photostated and then returned to you or did you make photostats?
Mr.Barnhorst. We do not keep this for any great length of time. Mr. McRee said we might turn this over to you.
Mr.Jenner. Thank you very much.
Mr.Barnhorst. As with all of the records.
Mr.Jenner. All right, we will retain them. Do you have other papers?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; these are the daily report sheets you requested. This is October 1963. These are for the specific dates at the top.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Barnhorst has now produced and handedme——
Mr.Barnhorst. You see, the carbon was in the thing backwards when it was typed, so, they didn't do it over on the third copy, they just stapled a sheet behind it and attached it to the copies you read it through from the top because an error was made in putting it in the typewriter.
Mr.Jenner. The front of each of these two sheets, for the purpose of identification in the record consist of two sheets stapled together back to back and in the typing the sheet was reversed and must be read from back to front. The first, or facing sheet, is marked Hulen Exhibit No. 12, and it is entitled "Resident's Hall Report, Thursday, October 3, 1963." The left-hand column is headed "Permanent-in." The right-hand column is headed, "Transients-out continued." This records, as I look at it here, the registrations in and out on October 3, 1963, is that correct?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes; approximately. It may include one or two who came in just the night before or who checked out, or men who would have been there and checked out the following day—would be on the next day's report.
Mr.Jenner. Is there an entry on this sheet with respect to Lee Oswald?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, room 601, on the "Transients-out," and I believe on the "Transients-in," I'm not sure. On this one it is the "Transients-in," room 601. He isn't on this sheet on "Transients-out." I don't recall it.
Mr.Jenner. Room 601—and he is shown checked in by Mr. Barker?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And from your knowledge of the hours Mr. Barker worked, that check-in was either late in the day or early in the evening of October 3?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. The second set of papers you have produced consists of three sheets, each entitled, "Resident's Hall Report." They are dated at the top right-hand column as October 4, 1963, October 15, 1962, and October 19, 1962. They are marked respectively, Hulen Exhibits Nos. 13, 14, and 15.
Mr.Barnhorst. Hulen Exhibit No. 13 is for the day following October 3, 1963.
Mr.Jenner. That would be the same report for the following day, and is there an entry on this that relates to Mr. Oswald?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, sir; "Transients-out, Room 601."
Mr.Jenner. Under "Transients-out," Room 601, appears the name "Lee H. Oswald." Then, at the end of the line there there is a word that is apparently a name (spelling)E-v-a——
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Who is that?
Mr.Barnhorst. Mrs. Eva Marshall.
Mr.Jenner. What does she do?
Mr.Barnhorst. She is the day clerk. She was probably substituting at the time for the clerk who quit.
Mr.Jenner. All right, and this indicates then that he checked out on the 3d of October and that the lady you have identified handled that checkout?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And the fact that she did it would indicate to you what, as to the time of day he checked out?
Mr.Barnhorst. It would probably be morning, but it also could be early afternoon.
Mr.Jenner. Exhibits 14 and 15 cover the period October 15–19, 1963?
Mr.Barnhorst. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I offer the exhibits.
I think that's all we have with respect to you. You overheard what I said to Mr. Hulen with regard to reading the deposition. That applies to you as well. If you will check with Mr. Sanders, this ought to be ready next week. It is rather late in the week to have it ready. You may sign the deposition if you wish or you may waive that. If there are any errors in it, we would like to know. Thank you very much.
Mr.Barnhorst. OK.
The testimony of Mrs. Arthur Carl (Gladys J.) Johnson was taken at 3:40 p.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Joseph A. Ball, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Ball. Come in, Mr. and Mrs. Johnson, and sit down. My name is Joe Ball and Mrs. Johnson, I think we will start with you. Will you stand up, Mrs. Johnson, please, and hold up your right hand?
[Complying.]
Mr.Ball. Do you solemnly swear the testimony given before this Commission will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Johnson. I certainly do; yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Mrs. Johnson, my name is Joe Ball and I am a staff counsel for the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. You have received a letter from us, did you not?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, I did.
Mr.Ball. Asking you to appear today and you are appearing voluntarily?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You will be asked questions concerning certain facts of which you have knowledge that have to do with our investigation of the assassination of the President, and particularly your knowledge of Lee Harvey Oswald and his place of residence and various things that you might know concerning Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Ball. What is your address?
Mrs.Johnson. 1026 North Beckley.
Mr.Ball. How long have you lived there?
Mrs.Johnson. 21 years.
Mr.Ball. And you live there with your husband?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr.Ball. What is his name?
Mrs.Johnson. Arthur Carl Johnson.
Mr.Ball. First of all, before I ask you any more questions, can you tell me something about your background, where you were born, where you went to school?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. How long you've been married and everything.
Mrs.Johnson. I was born in 1902 in Cherokee County at Alto and I was married to my first husband in 1920 and he is deceased. I had two children by him and he is deceased and I have been married to this Mr. Johnson will be 18 years in August.
Mr.Ball. You are a housewife by occupation?
Mrs.Johnson. No, I have a restaurant. I have a little restaurant of my own for 28 years, 1029 Young Street, Johnson's Cafe.
Mr.Ball. You still operate it?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; I still do.
Mr.Ball. You said you had lived at this place,1026——
Mrs.Johnson. About 21 years.
Mr.Ball. North Beckley?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mrs.Ball. You and your husband own that property?
Mrs.Johnson. I do; I owned it before I married. I don't own it. I am paying for it but I had bought the property before I married Johnson.
Mr.Ball. What size house is that, how many rooms?
Mrs.Johnson. Well, it has about 20-odd—22 rooms.
Mr.Ball. 22 rooms?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. In October, last October, November, 1963, who lived there?
Mrs.Johnson. October?
Mr.Ball. Yes, October and November last year; you and your husband lived there?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; my husband and I; that's our home.
Mr.Ball. Anyone else live there with you?
Mrs.Johnson. I had a housekeeper.
Mr.Ball. What is her name?
Mrs.Johnson. Earlene Roberts.
Mr.Ball. Anyone else live there?
Mrs.Johnson. That's all except tenants.
Mr.Ball. Then you rented out rooms?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; I rent out bedrooms, don't give board, just bedroom and living room privileges.
Mr.Ball. How many tenants did you have in October last year?
Mrs.Johnson. You know, I'm sorry I didn't bring my register. I couldn't tell you exactly; I imagine I had about 10 or 12.
Mr.Ball. Was it full?
Mrs.Johnson. No; I don't—I most always have vacancies.
Mr.Ball. You do?
Mrs.Johnson. I have had more even since this happened.
Mr.Ball. Oh, you have?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; I have; people are funny about things like that, you know.
Mr.Ball. Well, now, you knew Lee Oswald, didn't you?
Mrs.Johnson. Well, I just knew him when I seen him. I knew him as a renter, that's all.
Mr.Ball. Where was he when you first met him, at what place?
Mrs.Johnson. At my home—I was between serving hours and I come home for relaxation and to kind of help out. I cooperate in keeping the house and seeing after it, too, and I had returned home that afternoon and he seen the room for rent sign—the first time that he came by, I happened to have just rented the last room that one time. Occasionally, I will have them full and then they just go vacant; people just come in and out, stay a week and then are gone, anyway, at that time, I didn't have a room.
Mr.Ball. The first time he came to see you?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes: that's something about 3 weeks before he came back.
Mr.Ball. This was 1026 North Beckley?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. He talked to you?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; the first time and the last time; the first time, he told me he wanted a room and I told him I was very sorry, I just rented the last room and he said he was very sorry, he wanted to get near his work and he didn't have a car and it being on the bus line, he was sorry he missed it. I said, "You noticed the sign." I hadn't had time to take the sign up and I told him, "I will take the sign up and if you notice the sign up again, you might stop by and I will have a room" and sure enough, he came by this second time and so this tiny, little room—it was at one time my library; that's what it was built for, and he came by and I said I only have this small room at the present time. I run an ad, it seems like, at that time, and I said I only have the small room and he looked at it and said, "I will take this room with the understanding I can have a larger room at the time you have one go vacant" and I said to him that's agreeable, so, at the time, I had other vacancies which in just 2 or 3 days I had two or three more accommodations go vacant, so I told him I had other accommodations that are larger and he said, "I find this room to be light and comfortable." It was four windows on the outside wall; it was all light. He said, "I find it to be light and comfortable and worth the money, if you don't mind, I will remain in this room," so he didn't even look at the other rooms. He just remained in that room, what I call my library. When I utilized it into a bedroom, my father-in-law lived with a family of people on a farm and they went to Arkansas to live and he was getting old and he didn't want to be that far away from his son, so he wanted to come and make his home with us and I fixed this little library room—it was off and private from the other roomers—for "Pappy" to sleep in and the living room for him to sit in and he was—that's about 9 years before he was deceased.
Mr.Ball. Do you remember the date Oswald rented the room?
Mrs.Johnson. October 14.
Mr.Ball. What time of day did he come by?
Mrs.Johnson. It was between 4 and 5 o'clock, I do know that because I was home that day when he came back by and I said, when he came by, I said, "You did come back by."
Mr.Ball. Was your sign out at that time?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; it was; he seen the sign.
Mr.Ball. How much did you charge him?
Mrs.Johnson. $8 a week, refrigerator and living room privileges.
Mr.Ball. The refrigerator was located where?
Mrs.Johnson. In my kitchen—he wanted to know if he could put milk and lunch meat in my refrigerator and I told him he could.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you what his name was?
Mrs.Johnson. O. H. L-e-e [spelling].
Mr.Ball. Did he sign anything with that name?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; I have it in my purse.
Mr.Ball. May I see it?
Mrs.Johnson. I will be glad to—I don't want you to keep it. I want you to—I brought it for your information. I knew you was going to ask that.
Mr.Ball. Now, is this in his handwriting?
Mrs.Johnson. This "O. H. Lee" is in his handwriting and this other is in the housekeeper's handwriting—Mrs. Roberts.
Mr.Ball. And these are the rates you gave him?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. I would like this marked as an exhibit to this deposition. Mark this Exhibit A.
[Exhibit so marked.]
Mr.Ball. Could we make a copy of this and return this to you, Mrs. Johnson?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; I have been told that I could sell this and I haven't gotten any money. I think about $30 is what I have received, all the trouble and all I've had and I've had to take the rugs up once or twice. People like to have driven us crazy before we asked for any information what to do. I hated to be rude to people. I didn't know what to do but they gotso——
Mr.Ball. We will make a picture of this and give it back to you.
Mrs.Johnson. May I have something to erase this November 13, 15—I got that wrong, anyway. I was looking at the calendar and this, I was thinking it was November 13 that he left—he left my place on a Wednesday before this assassination on Friday.
Mr.Ball. That was the last time you saw him?
Mrs.Johnson. Yeah; the last time I saw him was on a Wednesday but my housekeeper seen him on a Friday morning right after this assassination, he came by the house hurriedly.
Mr.Ball. Were you at home at the time?
Mrs.Johnson. No; I wasn't. I was at my restaurant, so I got this copied wrong. It was November 20; the assassination was on the 22d and he left my house on the 20th and then didn't return until right after this assassination.
Mr.Ball. By this, you mean the last time you saw him was Wednesday, the 20th?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. He did not come home on Thursday night?
Mrs.Johnson. He did not; no, sir.
Mr.Ball. The 21st?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Friday, the 22d, you did not see him, either?
Mrs.Johnson. No; I didn't. The housekeeper did.
Mr.Ball. We will make a copy of this and give the original back to you and we will mark this "A." Did he sign that "O. H. Lee" in your presence?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. On that day?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; the day he rented the room, they sign the register—they sign the register before I accept any money.
Mr.Ball. I'm talking about this "O. H. Lee" signature on this document; he signed that on that date?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he give you the money?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. $8?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever know his true name was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Johnson. No; not until we saw his picture flash on the television as the officers were out. Those particulars was found in his pocket after he killed Tippit, after his arrest. So I came from the restaurant, I guess 1 or 1:30, and these officers were there 1:30 or 2, something like that, anyway, it was after this assassination, and as I drove in, well, the officers were there and they told me that they was looking for this character and I told them I didn't think I had anyone by that name there but we went through the register carefully two or three times and there was no Oswald there and I had two new tenants, rather new tenants, so we had carried them around the house to show them and we was going to start in the new tenants' rooms and my husband was sitting in the living room and seen this picture flash on the television and he said, "Please go around that house and tell him it was this guy that lived in this room here"; and it was O. H. Lee.
Mr.Ball. That is the first time you learned his name was Oswald?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. You knew him as O. H. Lee?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; I knew him as O. H. Lee.
Mr.Ball. The first time you knew the man to be Lee Harvey Oswald that you had known as O. H. Lee?
Mrs.Johnson. That's right.
Mr.Ball. Were you there when Oswald brought his clothes into the room?
Mrs.Johnson. No; what do you mean?
Mr.Ball. Now, you rented the room to him on the 14th?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. Did he move in on that same day?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; and he had his clothes with him.
Mr.Ball. He had his clothes with him?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; he just had a little old bag of clothes, these little bags you get when you are in the service.
Mr.Ball. A duffelbag?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes.
Mr.Ball. That's all he had?
Mrs.Johnson. That's all he had.
Mr.Ball. He was there only—you say he rented it on the 14th of October?
Mrs.Johnson. He rented the 14th of October.
Mr.Ball. Then he paid his rent every week until when?
Mrs.Johnson. Every week, every week, I tell you, when he rented the room, he told me that he was—I told him the rules of the house before I accepted any renter I rent to, I tell them the rules of the house.
Mr.Ball. What did you tell him?
Mrs.Johnson. That we definitely do not entertain in bedrooms, strictly the living room, and, too, they cannot come in intoxicated. If they drink, they must sober before they come in and I do not allow drinking at the home. That's the rules of the house and he accepted it.
Mr.Ball. He was there a little better than a month?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Five or six weeks?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; he was.
Mr.Ball. Did he eat any of his meals there at the home?
Mrs.Johnson. He had sandwiches and had milk. He drank about a half gallon of sweet milk a day. He kept a half gallon of sweet milk in my refrigerator a day and he kept lunch meat.
Mr.Ball. Anything else?
Mrs.Johnson. Jelly and preserves, something like that.
Mr.Ball. Did he eat in the evening after work?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; he did, most every afternoon.
Mr.Ball. He ate where, in his room?
Mrs.Johnson. Sometimes take it in his room, but he was just spotless with it.
Mr.Ball. Did he eat in the kitchen with it sometimes?
Mrs.Johnson. Occasionally, if there was no one in the kitchen, he would sit in the kitchen, but if there was anyone in there, he would take it in his room and every bit of that was put in the trash can. He never kept anything cluttered, never kept anything outside, no papers, books, or nothing.
Mr.Ball. Did you see him eat anything but lunch meat?
Mrs.Johnson. I never did, just lunch meat, all he ever put in there and preserves, I think he had some preserves and milk; but he put about a half gallon of sweet milk in that box each day.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him eating his evening meal?
Mrs.Johnson. Well, I don't think I had seen him but I have seen him come in and get the lunch meat and carry it into his room.
Mr.Ball. Did he go out nights, any?
Mrs.Johnson. I just really never did see that man leave that room.
Mr.Ball. After he came back from work?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; he stayed very closely but he did tell me he would be leaving to go home over weekends—no; he didn't say "home," he said, "I will leave to go to Irving over weekends and won't return until Monday."
Mr.Ball. Was he gone almost every weekend?
Mrs.Johnson. Every weekend but one and that was the weekend previous to the assassination.
Mr.Ball. What did he do that weekend?
Mrs.Johnson. Well, I actually didn't see him leave the house but I know he did because I heard some of the renters say they seen him leave and I also heard—remember something that he went to the rifle range—I read he was at the rifle range.
Mr.Ball. You say you did not see him leave. Were you there over the weekend?
Mrs.Johnson. I surely was.
Mr.Ball. But you did not see him leave?
Mrs.Johnson. That's right.
Mr.Ball. You say you heard some people say that; who said that?
Mrs.Johnson. I have read.
Mr.Ball. Don't tell me what you read.
Mrs.Johnson. I actually read it in the newspaper; I just don't remember.
Mr.Ball. Is there anybody that you know of at your house that you say saw Oswald leave the house the weekend before the assassination?
Mrs.Johnson. I'm trying to think. I just don't believe that I remember anyone who said definitely that they seen him leave.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody tell you that lived in your house there?
Mrs.Johnson. They could come in and out that door and we never would notice it because the house is large and we stayed a lot in the back of the house.
Mr.Ball. You mentioned rifle range. Where did you get information that Oswald went to a rifle range?
Mrs.Johnson. I read it in the paper.
Mr.Ball. Did anybody in your house tell you he went to a rifle range?
Mrs.Johnson. No.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him go to a rifle range?
Mrs.Johnson. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever tell you he went to a rifle range?
Mrs.Johnson. No, sir; that man never talked; that was the only peculiarity about him. He would never speak. If we would speak to him and some of the men renters he would speak to the housekeeper and I everytime we would speak and we would speak to him just most every time we would meet him and, of course, he would speak after we would speak, but he would come in and watch television maybe 30, 40 minutes at a time and never speak to a man.
Mr.Ball. He would watch television sometimes?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; watch television with the other men renters and hewouldn't speak to them. Maybe they would speak to him but he wouldn't speak.
Mr.Ball. Did you ever see him with a rifle?
Mrs.Johnson. Never did; and he never brought that rifle in my house; I just know he never had that rifle in there. He could have had this pistol, I don't know, because they found the scabbard.
Mr.Ball. The pistol holster is what they found?
Mrs.Johnson. Pistol holster is what I'm trying to say.
Mr.Ball. They found that after the assassination?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes sir; I seen the holster.
Mr.Ball. Had you ever seen it before?
Mrs.Johnson. No, sir; he kept that packed away. We never go through people's personal things. I instruct my housekeeper never go through people's personal things. We are not in a position to do that and it's rude and we do not.
Mr.Ball. How is this room furnished that Oswald rented?
Mrs.Johnson. A very small room; it had an old fashioned clothes closet that had a place to hang your clothes and drawer space for your underwear, your socks and everything, and then it also had a cabinet space anyone could have stored food or, well I mean bundles of things, you know, and then I had a dresser and a bed and a heater and a little refrigerated unit.
Mr.Ball. A refrigerating unit?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; a window unit.
Mr.Ball. You mean it cooled the room?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; and it had curtains and venetian blinds.
Mr.Ball. What kind of curtains did it have?
Mrs.Johnson. Well, it just had side drapes and panels.
Mr.Ball. Were the curtains on curtain rods?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. They were in the room when he rented it?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did Oswald ever talk to you about redecorating his room?
Mrs.Johnson. No, sir; never mentioned it.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever talk to you about putting up new curtains in his room?
Mrs.Johnson. No, sir.
Mr.Ball. Did he ever tell you he was going to get some curtain rods?
Mrs.Johnson. No; he didn't.
Mr.Ball. The room had curtain rods on the window when he came in there?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir; sure did.
Mr.Ball. Also curtains?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there one weekend when he was gone in which he didn't return on Monday but he came back the next day, on Tuesday?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes, sir.
Mr.Ball. Was there?
Mrs.Johnson. Yes; there was one and it must have been on Labor—no——
Mr.Ball. Armistice Day?
Mrs.Johnson. Armistice Day; it was on Monday, was it not?
Mr.Ball. Yes.
Mrs.Johnson. That was Monday he wasn't home. He didn't come home until Tuesday; that's the first time and only time he failed to pay his rent when it was due. It was due on Monday.
Mr.Ball. When did he pay it?
Mrs.Johnson. I would say the next 5 minutes after he walked into the house from work.
Mr.Ball. What time did he come home from work on Tuesday?
Mrs.Johnson. Something like 5 o'clock, 4:30 or 5—5, I think.
Mr.Ball. Did he tell you where he had been?
Mrs.Johnson. No, no; he didn't tell us anything; no; we didn't ask.
Mr.Ball. Now, in the next weekend, that would be the weekend before the assassination, he stayed there?
Mrs.Johnson. He remained there.
Mr.Ball. Did you or did you not see him go out any that weekend?