Mr.Wood. It was a Ford, if I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. About what year would you say?
Mr.Wood. I don't remember. I just knew it was a newer model car.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it a convertible or station wagon?
Mr.Wood. It was a hardtop.
Mr.Liebeler. A hardtop?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. About this other fellow that this guy was with, was he a big man orjust——
Mr.Wood. About the same size this man was.
Mr.Liebeler. How tall would you say this man was?
Mr.Wood. Oh, about 5'9".
Mr.Liebeler. About 5'9"?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now the FBI talked to you about this once before or a couple of times, didn't they?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the FBI ask you now how this fellow left the range?
Mr.Wood. What do you mean by that?
Mr.Liebeler. Did he ask you, did he go and get in a car or did he leave with somebody else?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember them asking you this?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what you told him?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you tell him?
Mr.Wood. I told him they left in a newer model car. He had to go around through the main office because that was 30 yards down and he had to come around and he left in a newer model car with this man, and he wasn't driving.
Mr.Liebeler. That the man who you saw firing was not driving?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI what kind of car it was?
Mr.Wood. I think I told him, I am pretty sure it was a Ford. That is what I remember, because I like Fords and I remember what a Ford looks like.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that this fellow who you saw shooting this rifle left with another man?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You are pretty clear about that?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you also told that the fellow you saw shooting the rifle wasn't driving the car, is that right?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now later on the next week after the President was assassinated, did you see a picture of this man or observe his picture on television or the radio or newspaper, or see him in any other way?
Mr.Wood. Are you talking about Oswald?
Mr.Liebeler. The man that was firing at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. That is what made me notice him.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell us about that.
Mr.Wood. The man out at the rifle range had a mean, stern face. You could tell he was a cold man, and that is what made me look at him more than I did anybody else. So when I saw the picture on television that night, I was sure it was him.
Mr.Liebeler. You spoke to your father about it?
Mr.Wood. Yes; we went to get a paper about the assassination and I said, "Dad, that does look like the man to me." And he said it did, too.
Mr.Liebeler. Did your father mention it to you first, or did you mention it to your father?
Mr.Wood. I mentioned it to him first.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned it to him first?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was your mother there when you mentioned it to him?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; she was out. We had gone out to get a paper.
Mr.Liebeler. The first time you saw this guy's picture was in the newspaper, is that right?
Mr.Wood. Yes; I kept remembering how he looked and I finally told my dad.
Mr.Liebeler. You told your father that this guy you saw at the rifle range looked like Oswald, based on the picture of Oswald in the newspaper?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you ever read in the newspaper anything about Oswald's ability to drive an automobile?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; I didn't read anything about that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether or not Oswald could drive a car or not?
Mr.Wood. I think he could, because my mother told me something about him going to Mexico or something.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you said that your mother told you something about Oswald going to Mexico, is that right?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You never were aware of the fact or heard that Oswald could not drive a car, is that right?
Mr.Wood. Do you mean—I didn't get what you said.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody ever tell you that Oswald couldn't drive a car?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You never heard that?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't know that now?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; I thought he could drive.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this other man that he was with fire a rifle at all?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. He did not?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Sterling, I want to show you some pictures of some men, and these pictures have previously been marked as Commission's Exhibit 451 and 453 through 456, sir. There are five of them. I want you to look at them and tell me if any of the pictures look like the guy you saw at the rifle range that you think was Oswald?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. None of those look like him?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now I want to show you another photograph which has not yet been marked, and ask you to look at it very carefully and tell me if any of the people in that picture look like the boy at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one?
Mr.Wood. That one with the paper in his hand.
Mr.Liebeler. Now I want to show you another picture that has been marked as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B, and ask you, that is the same picture, isn't it?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You pointed out that he has a green line over his head and you say that is the fellow you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Here is another picture that I want you to look at and see if you see anybody that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one is that?
Mr.Wood. That man right here.
Mr.Liebeler. This one right here?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Here is another picture just the same one as the one I showed you.
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The man that you pointed out as being the individual that you saw at the rifle range has a green mark over his head. There are two different marks. It looks like an "X," but it is two marks as opposed to one mark over here.
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you say that is the man you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to show you a picture that has been marked "Pizzo Exhibit 453-C," and ask you if that looks like the fellow you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you seen that picture before?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. One like it?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; not unless it's been in the paper. I think there has been one like that in the paper.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the FBI show you a picture of Oswald?
Mr.Wood. They showed me a picture with his gun in his backyard.
Mr.Liebeler. And you recognized that picture as being the man you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you two pictures that have been previously marked as Exhibits 3 and 4, on the deposition of Mr. Greener. Tell me whether that is the rifle the man had?
Mr.Wood. It does look like the rifle, but the scope looks a little funny to me.
Mr.Liebeler. What looks funny about the scope?
Mr.Wood. Because I seem to remember when I got a glance, it seemed to get bigger at the end and get smaller as it went along.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you say that is not the scope that was on the rifle?
Mr.Wood. I am not too sure, but I would say that looks like a foreign made scope.
Mr.Liebeler. The one in this picture does?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You are pretty sure in your own mind that the scope that was on the rifle at the range was not an American scope, is that correct?
Mr.Wood. Yes; it looked Japanese.
Mr.Liebeler. Sterling, you noticed how the sling is mounted on this rifle?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. It is mounted on the side on the butt, is it not? And on the side of the rifle, also?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the way the sling was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. I am not too sure. It was either mounted underneath or on the side. I am not sure.
Mr.Liebeler. You wouldn't remember one way or the other?
Mr.Wood. I think it was mounted on the side. I am not too sure. I wouldn't want to be positive.
Mr.Liebeler. Now do you remember that the FBI showed you a picture of a rifle?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is this the same picture?
Mr.Wood. As I remember, it looks like the same picture.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell the FBI that the weapon in the picture that they showed you was not the one you observed out at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. I said that was not the one. It didn't have this background in it. It's a picture that he showed me.
Mr.Liebeler. This is not the same picture the FBI showed you?
Mr.Wood. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, the FBI did show you a picture of a rifle?
Mr.Wood. Yes; it was an enlarged picture.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell them that that was the rifle that the man you think is Oswald had, or was not the rifle?
Mr.Wood. I told them that was not the rifle.
Mr.Liebeler. You told them that was not the rifle?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. The rifle in this picture, is this the same rifle? Can you tell, or a different rifle that was in the picture that the FBI showed you?
Mr.Wood. You mean to say—I don't know what you said.
Mr.Liebeler. The FBI agent showed you a picture of a rifle?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is the rifle that he showed you, the picture that he showed you, the picture of the same rifle as is in the picture we have here on the desk, or were they different rifles or can you tell?
Mr.Wood. I think they were the same rifles, except the rifle that he showed me didn't have that scope. I told them that that wasn't the scope.
Mr.Liebeler. That is what you told me just now?
Mr.Wood. Yes; so it would be a different rifle.
Mr.Liebeler. My question is this. Note that I am not asking you now whether this rifle is the same as the one that the fellow at the rifle range had, or whether or not the rifle that the FBI showed you, or the picture that the FBI showed you, was a picture of the same rifle that Oswald had on the rifle range—I just want to know now whether you can tell me whether the picture that I am showing you now is a picture of the same rifle as the FBI showed you.
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. It is?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you still say now that the scope on this rifle doesn't look like the scope the guy at the rifle range had?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. But this is the same scope as in the picture that the FBI showed you?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the FBI ask you about the sling mount on the rifle?
Mr.Wood. I think they did.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you tell them about that?
Mr.Wood. I think I told them it was mounted on the underneath, I am not too sure. I wasn't too positive then when I told them that.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are not sure now?
Mr.Wood. I am not sure now, because I didn't have that long of glance.
Mr.Liebeler. How did the FBI agent talk to you? Did he try to convince you that it wasn't the same rifle, or just show the picture and let you tell?
Mr.Wood. Let me tell.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't try to convince you one way or the other?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; he didn't try to force me one way or the other.
Mr.Liebeler. Now the scope that we have here on this rifle is enlarged at the forward end, is it not?
Mr.Wood. It is big towards the muzzle of the rifle; yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the way the scope was on the rifle that you saw at the rifle range, too?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir; but it was the same size as that, and it got smaller as it came to a point, but it was a big point.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, this one here is big at the back and it gets smaller in the middle, and then gets bigger at the front end. Now tell me the difference between this one and the one that you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. This was bigger and it got smaller as it went along.
Mr.Liebeler. It didn't get bigger at the forward end?
Mr.Wood. No; I didn't get that good a glance, but what I saw is what I told you.
Mr.Liebeler. All right, you are pretty sure in your own mind that that was Lee Oswald that you saw at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Kenney Longley?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he out there that day?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he see this guy?
Mr.Wood. I don't know if he saw him or not.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to him about it?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir; I think I did, because I was standing, he was waiting in a booth to shoot. They all were filled up, and he stood back there and was noticing it, too. He noticed the fire coming out of the gun.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, have you talked to Kenney Longley about this fellow at the rifle range since the assassination?
Mr.Wood. I haven't seen him.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anybody else out there at the range that day that you knew?
Mr.Wood. A friend of mine, Charles McDowell, but he was busy gathering shells.
Mr.Liebeler. And he didn't see this guy, as far as you know?
Mr.Wood. I don't know if he saw him. I don't think so. Maybe he did.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you talked to McDowell about it since the assassination?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ask McDowell whether he saw this fellow?
Mr.Wood. No, sir; but I am pretty sure, because he was right next to him, and he was down under the booth gathering shells.
Mr.Liebeler. You said that you have talked to McDowell about this guy at the rifle range?
Mr.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you talk to him about?
Mr.Wood. I talked to him about, I told him that very same night I talked to my daddy, and I called him on the phone and told him that I saw that man out there, and we talked about the President's death, and that was all. He said he remembered him, too, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell him that you thought that the fellow at the rifle range was Oswald?
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say?
Mr.Wood. He didn't know, and he wasn't too sure, but he wasn't as close as I was to him.
Mr.Liebeler. Where does this fellow live?
Mr.Wood. McDowell?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Wood. Marsalis, the first street over from where I do. I don't know the address.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, Sterling, I don't think I have any more questions that I can think of right now, but I want to say this: If you can think of anything else about this fellow that I haven't asked you about, or that you think you should tell me, I want you to tell me now so we can get it on the record.
Mr.Wood. Well, I remember we went down to look at our target, and he left after I did. Because I went down there real quick and I remember looking at his, and as I was leaving, he came down to look at his target and was looking at how accurate it was, and that is about all I have to tell you.
Mr.Liebeler. He was a pretty good shot?
Mr.Wood. He was the most accurate of all the targets that I noticed.
Mr.Liebeler. Okay, Sterling, I want to thank you very much. You have been very helpful. I hope we weren't too hard on you. The Commission wants you to know that it appreciates the cooperation you have given to us.
Mr.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you very much.
Mr.Wood. All right.
The testimony of Theresa Wood was taken at 4 p.m., on April 1 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you rise and raise your right hand, please. Do you swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Wood. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Please sit down. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a staff attorney on the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. Mr. Rankin wrote a letter to your husband and your son last week, telling them that he wanted to question them. I have just concluded questioning both of them. I would like to ask you a couple of questions about some points that came up during their statements.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your full name, for the record, please?
Mrs.Wood. My married name?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; your married name.
Mrs.Wood. Theresa Wood.
Mr.Liebeler. You are the wife of Dr. Homer Wood, are you not?
Mrs.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And the mother of Sterling Charles Wood?
Mrs.Wood. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall that sometime after the assassination of the President, your husband saw a picture of Oswald either in the newspaper or on television and said something to you about it? Do you remember that?
Mrs.Wood. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me what happened, and the circumstances and what you saw?
Mrs.Wood. He thought he was the same man they saw out at the gun range. In fact, he was sure of it. And he asked Sterling, and Sterling said, "Yes, daddy, it is the same man." And they were very, very sure of it at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, was Sterling in the room? Did your husband first see Oswald's picture on the television or in the newspapers; do you remember?
Mrs.Wood. I don't remember exactly. I think it was the newspapers or somewhere. They had three pictures of him. I think it was in the newspapers. Could have been on television.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, was Sterling there at the time your husband first spoke of this to you?
Mrs.Wood. No, I don't think so. I think he later asked Sterling.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether he asked Sterling, or whether Sterling mentioned it of his own accord without any prompting from his father? Do you remember how that happened?
Mrs.Wood. No, I don't remember exactly. I know they were both talking about it. They were both pretty sure that he was the man.
Mr.Liebeler. But you have no recollection at this point that your husband first saw a picture and said to you, now, in substance, that this looked like the man he saw on the rifle range and he wanted to wait and see if Sterling recognized him also, and that he purposely did not mention it to Sterling, but waited to see if Sterling would come forward with the same idea? Do you remember that happening?
Mrs.Wood. No; my husband was very, very sure. In fact, he was positive. And there was a friend that they met at the range. I think it was the same day. He called him to see if he thought, or if he had recognized Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. What was that friends name?
Mrs.Wood. It was Kenny Longley.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't talk to Longley, did you?
Mrs.Wood. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Your husband did?
Mrs.Wood. I think my husband called, but he never did talk to the boy. The boy was in school.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know if he ever talked to the boy about it afterward?
Mrs.Wood. I don't think so. Kenney Longley though was a good ways off or something, and I don't know whether he really saw him. According to my husband, he said he could have.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of anybody else that was out at the rifle range that your husband or your son knew who might have seen this fellow?
Mrs.Wood. No.
Mr.Liebeler. That is about all I wanted to ask you. Thank you very much for your cooperation.
The testimony of Glenn Emmett Smith was taken at 9:10 a.m., on April 1, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am a member of the legal staff of the President's Commission to investigate the assassination of President John F. Kennedy.
I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
I understand that Mr. Rankin wrote to you sometime last week advising you that I would be in touch with you to take your testimony. I understand also that he included with his letter a copy of the Executive order and resolution just referred to, together with a copy of the rules of procedure for the taking of testimony which have been adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution described above.
Did you receive the letter from Mr. Rankin?
Mr.Smith. I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Those documents were enclosed with it, were they not? Three different documents in that letter?
Mr.Smith. [Hands papers to attorney.] I'd better let you look, for I don't know what is in there.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; they are. The general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent killing of Lee Harvey Oswald. We want to inquire of you today concerning any knowledge you may have about the alleged sale of a rifle by an individual thought to be Lee Harvey Oswald to one Robert Taylor. We would also like to get from you any information that you have about Oswald's associates in Irving, Tex.
Before we get to the details of that testimony, would you state your full name for the record?
Mr.Smith. Glenn Emmett Smith.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live, sir?
Mr.Smith. 1604 Argentia, apartment C.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that in Dallas?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Where are you employed?
Mr.Smith. At Jack's Super Shell, Rock Island and Story Road, Irving.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you been employed there?
Mr.Smith. Since the 25th of April of 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. In what capacity do you work at the Shell station?
Mr.Smith. I am a drive attendant. I work the driveway.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you do prior to the time that you went to work for the Shell station?
Mr.Smith. I was an income tax consultant.
Mr.Liebeler. Worked in Dallas?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long were you engaged in that?
Mr.Smith. Just through the tax months, from January 1 to the 15th of April.
Mr.Liebeler. What do you usually do? Do you usually work service stations?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are you, sir?
Mr.Smith. Fifty-three.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you a native of Texas?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you lived all your life in Dallas?
Mr.Smith. No. I have been here since 1936.
Mr.Liebeler. Where did you live prior to that time?
Mr.Smith. Shawnee, Okla.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you born in Oklahoma or born in Texas?
Mr.Smith. Born in Texas.
Mr.Liebeler. Then moved to Oklahoma?
Mr.Smith. Moved to Oklahoma.
Mr.Liebeler. Then moved back to Texas?
Mr.Smith. Moved back to Texas.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know one Robert Taylor?
Mr.Smith. I think I do.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you known him?
Mr.Smith. Since I went to work, since the 25th of April 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. Is Mr. Taylor also employed at the Shell station where you worked?
Mr.Smith. Well, I don't know if he is going to be let out or not. He is off sick, and I understand that Mr. Smith has hired another man, which I know he got a man working. I don't know if he is going to let Robert come back.
Mr.Liebeler. But Mr. Taylor did work at the Shell station from at least April of 1963, up until sometime when he became ill, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. He was working there when I went to work, and he worked there steadily.
Mr.Liebeler. He became ill?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately when did he get sick?
Mr.Smith. He has been off a week and a half now. He went home sick Saturday a week ago.
Mr.Liebeler. He hasn't been at work since that time?
Mr.Smith. Well, he come back and worked 3 hours last Friday and had to go home again.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of work does Mr. Taylor do at the station? He is—is he a driveway attendant?
Mr.Smith. No; a mechanic.
Mr.Liebeler. You actually have a shop there at the Shell station?
Mr.Smith. We do minor repairs, no major, just minor repair.
Mr.Liebeler. How old is Mr. Taylor, do you know, possibly?
Mr.Smith. I think he is 49. I believe he told me he is 49.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever have any discussions with Mr. Taylor about a man who Taylor thought might be or was Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I did not. I heard Mr. Taylor, if I may tell youthis——
Mr.Liebeler. I want you to tell me what you know about it.
Mr.Smith. There was an FBI man called out and talked to us, and I heard Mr. Taylor tell him between customers now, I was just catching little words, and not enough to make very much sense, but I did hear him tell that he had traded a rifle or bought a rifle or something from Oswald.
Now I didn't know Oswald. He showed us his picture, but I didn't know him. He had been through there but I didn't recognize him.
Mr.Liebeler. The FBI showed you Oswald's picture?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you didn't recognize him?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
You see, sir—to my knowledge, I have never seen he or his wife.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear Mr. Taylor discussing this rifle that he bought from this fellow, before the FBI fellow talked to him?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember when the FBI man came to the station? Would that have been in about the middle of December of 1963?
Mr.Smith. I'd be afraid to commit myself. I don't remember when he was there. It's been about 2 or 3 months ago or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember the man's name?
Mr.Smith. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that his name was Morris J. White? Do you remember that was his name or don't you remember?
Mr.Smith. I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Don't you remember that you told the FBI agent that you had heard conversation that Taylor had purchased a rifle from some customer, and that that customer was thought by Taylor to be Lee Harvey Oswald? Didn't you tell that to the FBI agent?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; absolutely not. I am absolutely positive.
Mr.Liebeler. The first time you ever heard anything about this rifle that Taylor was supposed to have purchased was when the FBI agent was interviewing Taylor, isn't that your statement?
Mr.Smith. That is right.
Mr.Liebeler. You never heard anything about it from Taylor or anyone else prior to that time?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss this question of the rifle with Taylor after the FBI agent was there?
Mr.Smith. Nothing more than he told me that let's see now, Bob said he had traded a rifle, and that is about all. We were busy, and he said he traded a rifle, and that was the day that he showed the picture to me, the picture that the FBI man showed me, and that was all that was said about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Taylor told you afterwards that the FBI agent had showed him a picture and this picture was supposed to be a picture of Oswald?
Mr.Smith. He showed both of us the picture.
Mr.Liebeler. He showed both of you the picture?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And Taylor told you after the FBI agent left that the picture that the FBI agent showed you was a picture of the man from whom Taylor had purchased the rifle, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. He told the FBI man that. He didn't tell me that after he left, but he definitely told him that in my presence. I heard him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussions with Taylor after the FBI agent left about this question?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussions with anybody else about it?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see the rifle that Taylor supposedly purchased from this man?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Taylor ever tell you what kind of rifle it was?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And you never heard from anybody what kind of rifle it was?
Mr.Smith. I never heard anything about it at all.
Mr.Liebeler. How well do you know Taylor?
Mr.Smith. I never knew him until I went to work there. Just by working with him, that is all.
Mr.Liebeler. You never associated with him outside of work?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I hadn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever formed any opinion as to Taylor's truthfulness or his reliability?
Mr.Smith. I think he is truthful, and I think he is reliable.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't think he would tell the FBI agent that he got a rifle from this fellow if he didn't in fact get a rifle from this fellow?
Mr.Smith. I don't. I sure don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know where 2515 West Fifth Street is in Irving, Tex.?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever been there?
Mr.Smith. I have taken a lady home that lived there, to bring a car back to service it.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember approximately when that was?
Mr.Smith. Oh, we serviced her car quite often. What I mean, washed it and greased it, and she comes in occasionally now, but not like she used to.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you gone to her house more than once to bring the car back to the station?
Mr.Smith. To the best of my knowledge, I believe three times.
Mr.Liebeler. Were all of these times prior to the assassination?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you remember approximately when the first time was that you took this lady home to her house and brought the car back to the station?
Mr.Smith.Well——
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember now that you first started to work for the station in the last of April 1963? Can you remember approximately how long after that it was when you first went to this address on Fifth Street?
Mr.Smith. I sure don't.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no idea?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. A month, or 2 months, or just don't remember?
Mr.Smith. Possibly 2 or 3 months, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Ever have any conversation with this lady during the time that you drove with her back to her house?
Mr.Smith. Nothing more than just passing the time of day. The only thing, she made the statement one time, the first time I took her home, that she got a little child and she said the baby, he could speak Russian better than he could English. That is the first time I knew there was any Russian blood there.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you they were Russian, or just told you the little child could speak Russian?
Mr.Smith. That is all she told me.
Mr.Liebeler. That the child could speak Russian better than English?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever see anyone other than this lady and her children at the house on Fifth Street in Irving?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you actually go into the house on any occasion?
Mr.Smith. I helped her. I carried some groceries in her house one time. She had a carload of groceries, and I helped her put them in the house.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember how many children were with her at that time?
Mr.Smith. Three, I believe.
Mr.Liebeler. Three children?
Mr.Smith. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you make any judgment as to approximately how old they were? Did it appear to you that they were all her children, or weren't the ages so that it seemed to you that maybe one was the child of somebody else?
Mr.Smith. I had an idea they were all hers. They were approximately, looked like spaced out about a year or year and a half apart, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember which child this lady said could speak Russian better than she could speak English?
Mr.Smith. The baby.
Mr.Liebeler. The youngest one?
Mr.Smith. The youngest one.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember hearing this young baby speaking Russian?
Mr.Smith. I did, but I didn't know what she was talking about. I couldn't understand it, and that is the reason she told me that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did anybody else speak Russian to the child?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you hear the lady speak Russian?
Mr.Smith. No, I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the other two children speak Russian?
Mr.Smith. They didn't do no talking.
Mr.Liebeler. In either English or Russian; is that right?
Mr.Smith. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you describe this lady for us?
Mr.Smith. She is a slender woman, tall, slender woman; has very nice personality, and that is about all that I can say for her. She didn't do much talking either.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she ever make a statement to you that she was Russian herself?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. She just indicated to you that the little baby spoke Russian better than English, is that right?
Mr.Smith. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she tell you how it came to be that baby spoke Russian?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't ask her?
Mr.Smith. I didn't ask her.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you curious about that?
Mr.Smith. Yes; I was. I went back to the station and talked to the boss about it. I told him, "I believe those people are Russian people living down there," and he said why, and I told him about the lady telling me the little fellow spoke Russian better than English. And they were curious about it, but nothing was ever said. We didn't say anything to her, because she just come in and got gas and that was all. She never did talk much or anything.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever learn what this lady's name was?
Mr.Smith. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't know what it is today?
Mr.Smith. I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this child a boy or girl, or could you tell?
Mr.Smith. I don't know. I never paid any attention to it. I don't know if it was or not.
Mr.Liebeler. You couldn't tell whether it was a boy or girl?
Mr.Smith. Well. I didn't know, because I didn't notice. I didn't pay any attention whether it was a boy or girl.
Ordinarily, when I take a car home out there, I try to get there and back as fast as I can and I don't pay any attention other than the house number and what time it is supposed to be delivered.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of car did this lady have?
Mr.Smith. It is a station wagon. I believe a Plymouth.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately what year?
Mr.Smith. About a '53 or '54.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you sure it is a Plymouth, or could it be some other car?
Mr.Smith. No; I am not positive. It is either a Plymouth or a Chevrolet. I am not positive.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen this lady at any time other than when she brought her car to the gas station to have it serviced, or when you took her to her house?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there ever anyone with this lady other than the children at any time?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever meet this lady's husband?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear anything about him?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever hear that they were separated from each other?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. When you went into the house this first time to take the groceries in, as I understand it, that was the time when the youngest child was speaking Russian, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. When you went into the house, you brought the groceries into the kitchen, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. No; I set them down in the living room. She told me to put them on the coffee table, and I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you at that time see anything that would indicate to you that there was someone else in the house?
Mr.Smith. The house was awfully dirty. Boy, I never saw such a mess in my life. Things were on the floor, clothing and papers and everything else.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any idea when you went into the house with her that there might be someone else in the house or was someone there in the house when you came in?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you tell one way or the other? You didn't see into the bedrooms, did you?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There could have been someone else in the bedrooms and you wouldn't have seen them?
Mr.Smith. There could have been.
Mr.Liebeler. The lady didn't speak to anybody or call out when she came into the house to anyone else?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. This lady never indicated to you that this child that spoke Russian was not, in fact, her own child, did she?
Mr.Smith. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You always assumed it was this lady's child?
Mr.Smith. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to show you five different pictures that have been marked in a previous procedure as Commission Exhibits 451, 453, 454, 455, and 456. I want you to look at them and tell me if you have seen the individuals depicted in these pictures at any time?
Mr.Smith. [Looking] No, sir; I sure don't recognize him.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't recognize any of these?
Mr.Smith. I don't ever remember seeing him.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you another photograph which has been marked previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-B. It is a picture of several people, but one of the individuals has been indicated by a green mark on the face of the photo and I ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I do not recognize him.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you another photograph which has been marked previously as Pizzo Exhibit 453-C and ask you if you have ever seen that individual, to the best of your knowledge?
Mr.Smith. No, sir; I haven't.
Mr.Liebeler. I asked you before, did I not, whether you have ever seen this rifle that Mr. Taylor told you he had purchased?
Mr.Smith. I have not seen it.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Smith. If you can think of anything that you know that you think the Commission might beinterested in, whether I have asked you about it or haven't asked you, I would appreciate it if you would indicate that.
Mr.Smith. Well, I don't think I have a thing in the world, because actually I didn't know Oswald or his wife, either one. I don't ever remember seeing them.
And I do want to tell you this. At the time President Kennedy was assassinated, I thought this woman who lived on Fifth Street, right after it happened, I thought that was his wife simply because of her saying that this child spoke Russian and the police arrested Oswald, and I figured in my own mind that this was his wife, but it turned out differently, and that is the only thing that I learned about.
Mr.Liebeler. You learned that it wasn't this lady's husband that was involved, by reading the newspapers, is that correct?
Mr.Smith. Yes, sir; and as far as if this lady that lived on Fifth Street had a husband, I have never seen a man around there at all, and I have never seen a man with her. Ordinarily, just human nature would cause a man and his wife to be together sometime.
Mr.Liebeler. But you have never seen this lady with her husband?
Mr.Smith. I have never seen her with a man.
Mr.Liebeler. I want to thank you very much, Mr. Smith, for coming in, I appreciate it.
Mr.Smith. I wish there was something I could do, but I don't know a thing in the world I could help you with, I believe.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you. I appreciate it very much.