Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And there is a telegram dated October 11, 1963, transmitting $150 to James McGinley, is that right?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Also for the record we better indicate who sent these telegrams. The telegram to Mr. McMurray was sent by Mrs. Mildred McMurray in Plainsfield, N.J.; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The telegram to Mr. Robinson was sent by Mrs. S. R. Robinson, of Charleston, S.C.; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The telegram to Mr. McGinley was sent by Cornelius McGinley of Chicago; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There is a telegram dated October 15, 1963, to Mr. Jack Burge from Rosalie A. Burge, Tulsa. Okla., transmitting $10; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There is also a telegram dated October 19, 1963, to John A. Casber from John Casber of Midland. Tex., transmitting $35?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. A telegram dated October 28, 1963, to Gary Aue from Mrs. G. C. O'Quinn, Ft. Morgan, Colo., transmitting $65.
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There is a telegram dated October 31, 1963, to Stanley S. Qupiec from Stayea Houston of Ware, Mass., transmitting $50; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. There is also a telegram dated November 22, 1963, to Welton Hayes from Louis W. Hayes, of Rome, N.Y., transmitting $25; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And a telegram dated November either 27 or 28.
Mr.Wilcox. It would be November 7. This is a transmission, November 7.
Mr.Liebeler. 1963 to John M. Brandes, Jr., from Helen Tuttle, San Antonio, transmitting $20; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And one dated November 22, 1963, to Frank or Grace Fitzell, from the Akron Dime Bank in Akron, Ohio, transmitting $200; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And one dated November 28, 1963, to George McMurray from Mildred McMurray, Plainfield. N.J., transmitting $6; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And the addresses in each case were located then at the YMCA on North Ervay in Dallas; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Those were the only money order telegrams to individuals at the YMCA that you were able to find in the search of your records, and you are satisfied that those are the only money order telegrams in existence addressed to people in the YMCA during that period; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, Mr. Lewis' statement of December 4, 1963, mentions that the individual with whom he had difficulty in paying the money order was a man of Spanish descent, is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Lewis about that?
Mr.Wilcox. We may have had it at the time we read this statement, but I don't recall anything specific.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any discussion with Mr. Lewis as to whether he recognized this individual with whom he had difficulty in paying the money order, as Lee Harvey Oswald, from pictures of Oswald which appeared in the newspaper?
Mr.Wilcox. I asked him about that and he said he couldn't describe or associate the party to the extent that he could associate it with Oswald's picture or anything like that.
Mr.Liebeler. He just had no recognition?
Mr.Wilcox. Other than that he had some difficulty in paying a money order.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, as a result of these events that followed Mr. Hamblen's statement to the newspaper reporter and the subsequent investigation that was requested or instigated by the FBI and the Secret Service and other investigatory agencies, you conducted certain searches of certain files in your office in an attempt to locate any money orders that Oswald might have received, or any telegrams that Oswald might have sent during certain periods; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes; I can give you those dates.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me show you Exhibit 3001, which is a memorandum from Mr. Semingsen, and ask you if that memorandum accurately sets forth the dates and the checks that were made of the files in the Dallas and Irving, Tex., offices of your company to determine whether or not Oswald had received or sent any telegrams?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Semingsen testified this morning that the paying office—that is, the office through which a money order is delivered, maintains a chronological record or file of all money orders passing through that office; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. It is my understanding that you caused the files for both Dallas and Irving to be searched for the periods indicated in Exhibit 3001?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You were unable to find any money order payable to Lee Harvey Oswald or O. H. Lee or Alex James Hidell; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it possible that money orders could be sent to someone just by using initials or some shorthand name?
Mr.Wilcox. No; you never see anything because you would have no way to identify the man or associate it that you are paying it to them correctly, associate it with any identification that he might have.
Mr.Liebeler. Since each individual must produce identification at the time the money order is paid, the money order is naturally in the full name?
Mr.Wilcox. Correct. They could be accepting it for someone—it might not be their correct name, but they could have some identification that, if it was just a small money order, but we can't change that identification. If it meets what shows on the money order, then we pay it.
Mr.Liebeler. But you have never heard of a situation where a money order is paid to somebody just addressed to him by initials or something like that?
Mr.Wilcox. No.
Mr.Liebeler. How many offices, approximately, does the Western Union office have in Dallas?
Mr.Wilcox. There are eight branch offices.
Mr.Liebeler. Plus a central office?
Mr.Wilcox. Plus a central office.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it possible to receive money orders through the branch office?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Are the files of money orders received through branch offices kept in the branch offices, or the Dallas central office?
Mr.Wilcox. Kept at our main office.
Mr.Liebeler. So, that the search that you made of the records of the central office would include money orders that were received through any branch office located within the City of Dallas, is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You said before that your district covered not only the City of Dallas, but surrounding communities including Irving?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Are the records relating to money orders received through these other offices of suburban communities located or kept in the suburban offices or the Dallas central office?
Mr.Wilcox. In this case, this was an agency office and it would be—the recordswere kept at the Irving agency office. We did search those records at the Irving agency office.
Mr.Liebeler. That fact is indicated in Exhibit 3001, is it not?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The records of telegrams or money orders received through other suburban offices such as Garland, for example, would also be kept in the Garland office, would they not?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. But no search was made of any suburban office other than Irving; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Mr. Semingsen's memorandum also indicates that a search was made of the files in Fort Worth and in New Orleans, but you have no direct personal knowledge of what happened at those offices, do you?
Mr.Wilcox. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. We also have here a statement from Mr. Hamblen dated December 5, 1963. Do you have the original of that statement?
MrWilcox. Yes; I do have.
Mr.Liebeler. We will mark the original as Exhibit No. 3007 on the deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1963.
I have initialed Exhibit No. 3007, Mr. Wilcox, and I would like you do the same.
Mr.Wilcox. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. This statement was apparently taken on December 5, 1963. Do you recall the circumstances under which it was given?
Mr.Wilcox. This was following a meeting and discussion that we held on December 4, at which time we discussed the money orders and messages with Mr. Hamblen, Mrs. McClure, and Mr. Lewis.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was present at this discussion other than the individuals you just mentioned and yourself?
(Mr. Wilcox phoned his office re: correct date of meeting.)
Mr.Wilcox. I did hold this meeting.
Mr.Liebeler. Let the record indicate that Mr. Wilcox has just conferred telephonically with Mr. Semingsen and wishes now to clarify the statements concerning the time on which certain meetings were held with the employees.
Mr.Wilcox. I did hold the meetings with these people on December 4, and did obtain these statements, including the statement from Mrs. McClure, Mr. Lewis, both indicated as December 4, and the statement from Mr. Hamblen which is dated December 5.
Following this meeting I endeavored to find the message or messages that Mr. Hamblen was referring to, which he insisted Mrs. McClure had accepted from Mr. Oswald. I did extract from our files all messages matching the message numbers on the cash sheet prepared by Mrs. McClure.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the FBI ask you to do this because Mr. Hamblen said that a message with which Mrs. McClure had difficulty was given to her by a man who Hamblen thought was Oswald, and that the message was one to Washington, D.C., specifically to the Secretary of theNavy——
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. And that it was accounted for on Mrs. McClure's sheet as a night letter that was set forth on her cash sheet; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. So you then got all of the telegrams that were listed on Mrs. McClure's cash sheets; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. From the 1st of November through the November 22. We could not find any such messages. However, we did extract all messages going to Washington, D.C., regardless of the names to whom they were sent, or signed, including some messages going to other points, because of their peculiar type of printing.
Now, would you like to see those messages?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir; I would. Let me ask you specifically if the period covered in terms of this extraction was from October?
Mr.Wilcox. From November 1.
Mr.Liebeler. From November 1?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You picked that period because Mr. Hamblen said that he thought the event occurred about 10 days prior to the assassination; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right. Now, I think you have the only thermofax of Mrs. McClure's. Would you want the original?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; I do want to mark the original statement of Mrs. McClure, dated December 4, 1963, which has been previously referred to by Mr. Wilcox. I will mark it as Exhibit 3008 on the deposition of Mr. Laurance R. Wilcox at Dallas, Tex., on March 31, 1964.
I have initialed that exhibit, Mr. Wilcox, and would like to have you do the same.
Mr.Wilcox. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. Who prepared Mrs. McClure's statement?
Mr.Wilcox. Mrs. McClure wrote that.
Mr.Liebeler. She typed it on the typewriter herself?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you present at the time she prepared it?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss these incidents with her prior to the statement?
Mr.Wilcox. Only during the course of the meeting that she attended in my office.
Mr.Liebeler. During the course of that time, Mrs. McClure indicated to you, did she not, that she had no recollection of any of the events described by Mr. Hamblen concerning the message allegedly sent to Washington, D.C.?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's mark these telegrams as Exhibits 3009 through 3014. I have initialed each one of them and would like to have you do the same. I have not indicated on each one of them in detail. It is on your deposition and on the dates, as I have on the others, but that fact will appear from the record.
Mr.Wilcox. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. You have now provided me with six telegrams, cables which have been marked for identification as Exhibits 3009 through 3014, and it is my understanding that these telegrams and cables were all shown to Mr. Hamblen and he was unable to identify any of them as answering the description of the telegram or cablegram with which Mrs. McClure had had difficulty, and which Mr. Hamblen thought had been sent by a person resembling Lee Harvey Oswald, is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. And a thorough search of the files along the lines that you have previously indicated was unable to produce any other telegrams even remotely falling into the category described by Mr. Hamblen; i.e., a telegram to Washington, D.C. or in a peculiar hand script such as described by Mr. Hamblen to any destination, whether it be Washington or otherwise; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you have provided me with a letter from yourself to Mr. Semingsen, dated December 6, 1963, which we will mark as Exhibit 3015, on deposition of Laurance R. Wilcox, at Dallas, Tex., March 31, 1964. I have initialed that exhibit and ask you to do the same, sir.
Mr.Wilcox. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. And ask you if you prepared the original of that letter on or about December 6, 1963?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You sent the original of it to Mr. Semingsen, did you not?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir; that's right.
Mr.Liebeler. And the letter accurately sets forth the events preceding that date which we have been discussing here, does it not?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You have also provided me with a copy of a letter from yourself to Mr. Semingsen, dated December 9, 1963, to which is attached the original of statement from Mrs. Betty Bedwell, dated December 6, 1963, and A. I.English, dated December 6, 1963. I notice that Mr. English's statement is not signed.
Mr.Wilcox. [Signs.]
Mr.Liebeler. And I ask you if the original of it was signed at the time you received it?
Mr.Wilcox. No, sir; he just signed this on the typewriter to me.
Mr.Liebeler. No; he did not himself sign it?
Mr.Wilcox. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You have indicated below that it was in effect signed by Mr. English when he delivered it to you?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Also attached is a statement of Miss Bess Mildred Francis, dated December 9, 1963. Also attached is a statement of Doyle E. Lane, dated December 9, 1963; and one of Mr. E. T. Pirtle, dated December 6, 1963; and one of Ward Townsley dated December 6, 1963. Did you receive those statements from the individuals thus described?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. We have marked the letter described above, together with the attachments just described as Exhibit 3016 on the deposition of Mr. Laurance R. Wilcox at Dallas, Tex., on March 31, 1964. I have initialed the first page of that exhibit and would like to have you do the same.
Mr.Wilcox. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. Did you send the original of your letter dated December 9, 1963, to Mr. Semingsen on or about that date?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. The statements made in that letter are true and correct to the best of your knowledge, are they not?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. You have also given me the original of a statement dated December 6, 1963, of Mr. Doyle E. Lane. Was that also attached to your letter of December 9, 1963, to Mr. Semingsen?
Mr.Wilcox. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you receive yourself from Mr. Lane the statement just described?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me mark it as Exhibit 3017 on this deposition.
Would you initial the statement of Mr. Lane which we have marked 3017?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes, sir. [Initials.]
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you.
You previously testified, Mr. Wilcox, that you had a meeting on or about December 4, 1963, with Mr. Hamblen, Mrs. McClure, and Mr. Lewis in regard to the meeting we have been discussing, and you also testified that you thought you had an additional meeting on December 9, 1963, at which Mr. Semingsen was present. Would you care to elaborate on that?
Mr.Wilcox. The meeting as you have outlined—the meetings on the dates you have outlined are correct. The meeting on December 9, at which Mr. Semingsen attended was for the purpose of confronting Mr. Hamblen with the messages that we had extracted that were going to Washington, or those which were in peculiar print, that had been accepted by Mrs. McClure during the period of 1st of November until about November 22. Mr. Hamblen, of course, could not identify any of these telegrams as having been the message he described in his statement of December 2 and December 5.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you form a conclusion at that time as to the accuracy of Mr. Hamblen's recollection concerning the events which he had related to you and to the press?
Mr.Wilcox. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What was that conclusion?
Mr.Wilcox. That this whole thing was a figment of Mr. Hamblen's imagination. I am fearful that he was just emotionally upset over the events as they transpired, and this may have been the factor causing him to say what he had said about the acceptance of the messages and the money order, and possibly have something to do with his statements to the press.
Mr.Liebeler. As I understand you, you were perfectly satisfied at that time that Oswald had never in fact been in the office either to receive money orders or to send any telegram of the type described by Mr. Hamblen, or as far as you have been able to determine, any other telegram; is that correct?
Mr.Wilcox. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. At this point I can't think of any further questions, Mr. Wilcox. If you can think of anything that you would like to say that in your opinion would be of assistance to the Commission in its work, please indicate that at this time? Can you think of anything else?
Mr.Wilcox. I can't think of anything else now, but if I do, I will be happy to pass it along to you.
Mr.Liebeler. If you do think of anything subsequently, call it to my attention and I would appreciate it very much.
Thank you very much, Mr. Wilcox. You have been very helpful and very cooperative. The Commission appreciates the cooperation you and Western Union have shown. Thank you very much.
Transcriber's NotesPunctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.Some simple typographical errors were corrected.Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.Occasional periods that should be question marks, and question marks that probably should be periods, not changed.Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.Page1: "had an acquaintance with the Oswald's" was printed that way.Page24: "thinking she said this latter" probably should be "later".Page54: "October 18, 1938" is the date printed in Testimony; Oswald's actual date of birth was October 18, 1939.Page110: "ever been a subscribed to The Militant" should be either "subscriber" or "ever subscribed".Page112: "examine Watts' No. 8" probably should be "Dobbs' No. 8".Page117: Sentence beginning "If my voice is low, young lady" is unattributed, but in context, probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.Page130: "or anyone of a number of" was printed that way.Page204: "through his hurrying be made" perhaps should be "he made".Page208: "NVD" is either misprint or mispronunciation for "MVD".Page273: "you know, what night or" probably should be "that night".Page277: "Rubenstein" is spelled "Rubinstein" elsewhere in this and other volumes of the Hearings.Page282: "To be best of your recollection" was printed that way.Page351: "Bogard was bound to own" probably should be "found".Page352: "Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?" was missing the period; changed here.
Punctuation and spelling were made consistent when a predominant preference was found in this book; otherwise they were not changed.
Misspellings in quoted evidence not changed; misspellings that could be due to mispronunciations were not changed.
Some simple typographical errors were corrected.
Inconsistent hyphenation of compound words retained.
Ambiguous end-of-line hyphens retained.
Occasional uses of "Mr." for "Mrs." and of "Mrs." for "Mr." corrected.
Dubious repeated words, (e.g., "What took place by way of of conversation?") retained.
Several unbalanced quotation marks not remedied.
Occasional periods that should be question marks, and question marks that probably should be periods, not changed.
Occasional periods that should be commas, and commas that should be periods, were changed only when they clearly had been misprinted (at the end of a paragraph or following a speaker's name in small-caps at the beginning of a line). Some commas and semi-colons were printed so faintly that they appear to be periods or colons: some were found and corrected, but some almost certainly remain.
The Index and illustrated Exhibits volumes of this series may not be available at Project Gutenberg.
Page1: "had an acquaintance with the Oswald's" was printed that way.
Page24: "thinking she said this latter" probably should be "later".
Page54: "October 18, 1938" is the date printed in Testimony; Oswald's actual date of birth was October 18, 1939.
Page110: "ever been a subscribed to The Militant" should be either "subscriber" or "ever subscribed".
Page112: "examine Watts' No. 8" probably should be "Dobbs' No. 8".
Page117: Sentence beginning "If my voice is low, young lady" is unattributed, but in context, probably was spoken by Mr. Jenner.
Page130: "or anyone of a number of" was printed that way.
Page204: "through his hurrying be made" perhaps should be "he made".
Page208: "NVD" is either misprint or mispronunciation for "MVD".
Page273: "you know, what night or" probably should be "that night".
Page277: "Rubenstein" is spelled "Rubinstein" elsewhere in this and other volumes of the Hearings.
Page282: "To be best of your recollection" was printed that way.
Page351: "Bogard was bound to own" probably should be "found".
Page352: "Vending machines. What kind of vending machines?" was missing the period; changed here.