Mr.Jenner. But Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 is the one that you prepared?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. And not one that the FBI prepared.
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
This was on Saturday afternoon. Were you scheduled to go on the air that evening?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; my broadcast time is 7:30. I met him about 5, about two and a half hours in advance.
Mr.Jenner. Had you contemplated that the broadcast that evening would be a discourse only between you and Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the way it developed?
Mr.Stuckey. That is the way it developed.
Mr.Jenner. What was the nature of that broadcast? I should say to you we have from—what is the radio station?
Mr.Stuckey. WDSU.
Mr.Jenner. From WDSU we have obtained a copy of that tape.
Mr.Stuckey. Now, you mean of this tape?
Mr.Jenner. No.
Mr.Stuckey. Because I don't think they have a copy of that tape.
Mr.Jenner. No; the broadcast that evening I am talking about.
Mr.Stuckey. Is that right? They located it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. Because I tried to find a copy of that mainly to take it off the market and never did locate it. I couldn't find it. This must be a recent development.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; but despite that would you tell us about that broadcast?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
As I said, this was a 37-minute, rambling interview between Oswald and myself, and following the interview, first we played it back to hear it. He was satisfied.
Mr.Jenner. That is, you played back the tape of which Exhibit No. 2 is a transcript?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct; Oswald was satisfied. I think he thought he had scored quite a coup.
Then I went back over it in his presence and with the engineer's help excerpted a couple of the remarks by Oswald in this. I forget now what the excerpts were. It has been so long ago. I think we had his definition of democracy because that, in particular, struck me, and we had a couple of his comments in which he said Castro was a free and independent leader of a free and independent state, and the rest of it, as I recall, was largely my summarizing of the other principal points of the 37-minute interview, and it was broadcast on schedule that night.
Mr.Jenner. You had watered it down in length to how many minutes?
Mr.Stuckey. Five minutes.
Mr.Jenner. Five minutes?
Mr.Stuckey. Actually 4½.
Mr.Jenner. So you took the portions of your 37-minute interview, whichwe now have a transcript of, which is Exhibit No. 2, and boiled that down to 4½ minutes?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. And that was a radio broadcast?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That evening. All right. Was that your last contact with Mr. Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. No; it was not.
Mr.Jenner. Following the broadcast did you have any further conversation with him, that evening?
Mr.Stuckey. That evening; no. The only thing that did transpire was I told him that I was going to talk to the news director to see if the news director was interested in running the entire 37-minute tape later, and I told him to get in touch with me, Oswald to get in touch with me Monday, and I would let him know what the news director said, and that was all the conversation we had that night, and he went his way.
I did just that the next Monday, I called the news director and asked him if he had heard the tape, and he said no. I asked him if he was interested in running it. I told him I thought it was pretty interesting, and he said, for some reason, he thought that it would be more spectacular a little bit—there would be more public interest if we did not run this tape at all, but instead arrange a second program, a debate panel show, with some local anti-Communists on there to refute some of his arguments, which I did. Which I did—I arranged a debate show for a regular radio feature that WDSU has called "Conversation Carte Blanche." This is a 25-minute public affairs program that runs daily. It is almost always interviews of people in the news locally or this sort of thing.
I was in charge of arranging the panel, so I picked Mr. Edward S. Butler.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us who he is.
Mr.Stuckey. He is the Executive Director of the Information Council of the Americas in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. What is that organization?
Mr.Stuckey. It is an anti-Communist propaganda organization. Their principal activity is to take tape-recorded interviews with Cuban refugees or refugees from Iron Curtain countries, and distribute these tapes which are naturally, it goes without saying, these tapes are very strongly anti-Communist, and they distribute these tapes to radio stations throughout Latin America. As I recall, they came to have over 100 stations using these tapes regularly.
Well, Mr. Butler is a friend of mine. I knew him as a columnist, and it just seemedlike——
Mr.Jenner. He was an articulate and knowledgeable man in this area to which he directs his attention?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; so I asked him to be one of the panelists on the show, which he accepted, and, incidentally, I let him hear the 37-minute tape in advance; and for the other panelist I asked Mr. Bringuier, Mr. Carlos Bringuier, that we mentioned earlier, as being the man who led me to Oswald—I asked him to appear on the show to give it a little Cuban flavor.
And then Oswald called me after it was arranged, and I told him we were going to arrange the show and would he be interested, and he said, yes, indeed, and then he said, "How many of you am I going to have to fight?" That was his version of saying how many are on the panel.
Mr.Jenner. He said this to you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; in a jocular way.
Mr.Jenner. Where did this take place, on the telephone?
Mr.Stuckey. On the telephone; yes.
This was Monday or Tuesday, the 19th or the 20th of August, whenever it was that I had informed him of the show.
Mr.Jenner. Had he called you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I gave him my office number so he called me at a prearranged time. He was very punctual, very punctual. He was always there on time, all those calls came on time. So I informed him about this debate show and he agreed. He said he thought that would be interesting.
Then the next time I see him is on the afternoon of August 21, Wednesday. I believe this was about 5:30.
Mr.Jenner. Was this to be a preliminary session also?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes—well, no; this was to be a live program. The Conversation Carte Blanche panel show is not to be prerecorded as the other one was.
Mr.Jenner. I appreciate that, but I was just talking about your meeting with him on Wednesday afternoon, the 21st, at 5:30. The program went on at what time?
Mr.Stuckey. At 6:05.
Mr.Jenner. I see. It was not long before the program.
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. It was not a preliminary interview such as you had had, which is transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr.Stuckey. No; there were some comments of which I will tell you later.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. I would like to add this, this is very interesting, and gave a little bit of spice to this encounter. During that day, Wednesday, August 21, one of my news sources called me up and said, "I hear you are going to have Oswald on Carte Blanche." I said, "Yes, that is right." He said, "We have some information about Mr. Oswald, the fact that he lived in Russia for 3 years."
He had omitted reference to this in the 37-minute previous interview, and in all of our conversations.
Mr.Jenner. He had never mentioned that subject prior to that?
Mr.Stuckey. As a matter of fact, he gives an account of his background in here.
Mr.Jenner. In Stuckey Exhibit No. 2?
Mr.Stuckey. Right; in which he completely omits this. Would you like me to read it?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; you have turned to a particular page?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I will be reading from this. Here is my question.
"STUCKEY:"——
Mr.Jenner. Maybe we can identify the page.
Mr.Stuckey. This will be page 11.
Mr.Jenner. Page 11 of Stuckey Exhibit No. 2.
Mr.Stuckey. My question was:
"Mr. Oswald, I am curious about your personal background. If you could tell something about where you came from, your education and your career to date, it would be interesting.
"OSWALD:"—this is his reply—"I would be very happy to. I was born in New Orleans in 1939. For a short length of time during my childhood I lived in Texas and New York. During my junior high school days I attended Beauregard Junior High School. I attended that school for 2 years. Then I went to Warren Eastern High School, and I attended that school for over a year. Then my family and I moved to Texas where we have many relatives, and I continued my schooling there. I entered the United States Marine Corps in 1956. I spent 3 years in the United States Marine Corps working my way up through the ranks to the position of buck sergeant, and I served honorably having been discharged. Then I went back to work in Texas and have recently arrived in New Orleans with my family, with my wife and my child."
There is his answer. He omits the 3 years in Russia by saying that, referring to the fact that, after leaving the Marine Corps he says he went to Texas and then to New Orleans. You will note in there he lied about his rank he achieved in the Marine Corps. Why, I don't know. As far as I know he was just a Pfc.
Mr.Jenner. He never rose any higher.
Mr.Stuckey. And, as I recall, he did not go to Warren Eastern High School over a year.
Mr.Jenner. You have become aware he attended Beauregard only 1 year rather than 2?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That he attended Warren Eastern about 6 weeks or 2 months.
Mr.Stuckey. That was my impression. I mention this because with this in mind, this is why it was so interesting to me to find out on that day, August 21, that he had lied to me, that he had, in fact, lived in Russia for 3 years, and had just recently returned, and this individual who called me and gave me this information gave me dates of Washington newspaper clippings that I could check, which were stories about his leaving for Russia, or rather his appearance in Moscow in 1959.
Mr.Jenner. Now, this information came to you between the time of your interview transcribed as Stuckey Exhibit No. 2 and the 21st of August when you were about to put on your debate program, the discussion program?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did this come to you sufficiently in advance to enable you to do some checking vis-a-vis newspaper or articles?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. And was he unaware when he came in at 5:30 on the afternoon of Wednesday that you had done this, had received this information and had done some research?
Mr.Stuckey. He was unaware of that fact. During that day Mr. Butler called, after I had already been tipped off about his Russian residence, Mr. Butler called and said he too had found out the same thing, I think later; his source apparently was the House Un-American Activities Committee or something like that.
At any rate, we thought this was very interesting and we agreed together to produce this information on the program that night.
Mr.Jenner. You were going to face him on the program with this?
Mr.Stuckey. Unawareness.
Mr.Jenner. You thought it might be a bombshell and be unaware to him.
Mr.Stuckey. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. And we decided it would be me who would do it as the introducing participant.
So at about 5:30 that afternoon I arrived at the studio alone. Oswald appeared, and in a very heavy gray flannel suit, and this is August in New Orleans, it is extremely hot, that he appears in a very heavy gray flannel suit, very bulky, badly cut suit, and looking very hot and uncomfortable. He had a blue shirt on and a dark tie, and a black looseleaf notebook.
Mr.Jenner. The same one he had had before?
Mr.Stuckey. As far as I know. We shook hands, passed a few pleasantries, nothing much of importance.
Mr.Jenner. Were the others present?
Mr.Stuckey. No; they arrived a little bit later. Oswald was there first, as usual on time, and then Mr. Butler came in with Mr. Bringuier. Both looked as if they had pounds and pounds of literature with them, and statistics.
Mr.Jenner. Did Bringuier and Oswald recognize each other?
Mr.Stuckey. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. And it was apparent to you they were acquainted?
Mr.Stuckey. Oh, yes; indeed.
Mr.Jenner. And that Oswald was acquainted with Bringuier and vice versa?
Mr.Stuckey. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Had Oswald met Mr. Butler before?
Mr.Stuckey. I don't know if he had or not. It was my impression that he had not, but I think he knew who he was. Oswald asked me something about the organization, and I told him, I said, "Well, it is just like your organization; it is a propaganda outfit, just on the other side of the fence," and that satisfied his curiosity.
I think he immediately kissed it off as a hopeless rightist organization, "You can't reason with those people," that approach.
So it was a somewhat touchy exchange there between Bringuier and Oswald in the studio. Bringuier, as well as I recall, started out with a remark like this, saying, "You know, I thought you were a very nice boy. You really made a good impression on me when I first met you." Referring to Oswald's visit to Bringuier in the store when Oswald was posing as an anti-Castro enthusiast,and Bringuier said, "I cannot understand how you have let yourself become entangled with this group."
He said, "I don't think you know what you are doing."
Oswald said something to the effect that, "I don't think you know what you are doing," and back and forth such as this. Bringuier said, "Anytime you want to get out of your organization and join mine there is a place for you," and he says, "I hope one day you will see the light."
And again Oswald says, "I hope you see the light," and that was about all there was to that.
Butler didn't say anything to him particularly. It was just pleasantries, "How do you do," and such.
Mr.Jenner. How old a man is Butler?
Mr.Stuckey. Butler is in his late twenties, he is 29 or 30.
Mr.Jenner. Is he an educated man?
Mr.Stuckey. College, as far as I know. He is advertising, public relations man before he went into the propaganda business, and that was about the extent of the exchanges prior to the broadcast.
Then I left to go back to the newsroom, which was a different room from the room where we were sitting, to get Bill Slatter, who is the official moderator of the program, and we came back and picked up our participants and went into the broadcast room.
As I recall, in opening the show Bill Slatter said that myself and he would be talking to three other people. In other words, I was not considered a panelist, but there were two station people and three panel people. This was the way it was explained, and Slatter turned the program over to me after a very brief introduction and description of Oswald and a brief capsule of his background in New Orleans to date, and then he turned the show over to me, and I gave a several-minute description of the organization, Mr. Oswald and his activities in New Orleans up to that time, and then I pulled the Russian thing on him.
I did mention—I think I did it this way, I said:
"Mr. Oswald, in the previous interview, gave me a description of his background. He told me this and that and this and that, but he omitted some information, to the best of my knowledge," and I mentioned that that day some newspaper clippings had come to my attention about his residence in Russia, and I said, "Is this true, Mr. Oswald?"; and Oswald said, "Yes."
Mr.Jenner. Would you mark what I hand you, Mr. Reporter, as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3.
(The item was marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 3 for identification.)
Mr.Stuckey. You may be interested in knowing that the Information Council of the Americas, Mr. Butler's organization, has since made a record out of this debate, and just released it about 2 weeks ago, called "Self-Portrait in Red."
Mr.Jenner. I am going to hand you, to refresh your recollection, if it needs refreshing, a 10-page document which I have marked for purposes of identification only as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3. Each of these pages bears the figure 236 in red ink at the bottom. It is also known here as, that is, around here, as Commission Document No. 87B. The pages are numbered at the top 1 through 10, inclusive. It purports to be a transcript of a tape recording of your broadcast of the evening about which you speak, a debate on August 21, 1963.
We have obtained from the radio station, WDSU, a duplicate of the tape itself. Would you take a look at this transcript and perhaps, if you will run through it, tell us whether it is, to your recollection, a transcript of your program that night?
Mr.Stuckey. I would like to say this about this transcript. I think it is very unfair. These people have put in all of Oswald's hesitations, his "er's," and that sort of thing. I notice when the AP ran an account of this after the assassination they had done all of this on Oswald. They were apparently trying to make him look stupid. Everybody else was using the "er's," but they didn't put those in.
Mr.Jenner. I will say it is a transcript—your attention is drawn to the fact that the hesitations of Oswald are included, but the hesitations of, let us say, even yourself and the other participants, are not.
Mr.Stuckey. Are not.
Mr.Jenner. And in that sense it is in some measure a distortion of the actual tape.
Mr.Stuckey. A slight distortion. I think it is an unfair thing.
Mr.Jenner. Well, we have the actual tape so the hesitations will appear, and what I was using this primarily for is to afford you an opportunity, if you wish to use it, to refresh your recollection of this program.
What were some of the things that you now recall that struck you about this dissertation?
Mr.Stuckey. Well, of course, the principal thing that came out on that program, aside from the Russian residence, the most striking thing was his admission that he was a Marxist. We asked him if he was a Communist—we were always doing this—he was very clever about avoiding the question. He would usually say, "As I said before, I belong to no other organization other than the Fair Play for Cuba Committee."
So we asked him this question, of course, and he gave us that answer, and I asked, "Are you a Marxist?"; and he said, "Yes."
Otherwise, it was—the program was largely speeches by Bringuier and Butler, and Oswald did not have a chance to ramble much or to talk much as he had earlier, and most of his answers are rather short.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get into a discussion of democracy and communism and Marxism and then the distinctions?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes, yes.
Mr.Jenner. The distinctions between them?
Mr.Stuckey. A brief discussion. We asked him, I say "we," I mean Mr. Butler asked him the difference between being a Marxist and being a Communist, and this was a typical oblique Oswald answer. He says, "It is the same difference between Ghana and Guinea, and even in Great Britain they have socialized medicine," and that is about the extent of the answer.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have as to this man's deep or fundamental appreciation of Marxism, democracy, communism, fascism, socialism, as the case might be?
Mr.Stuckey. It was my impression he had done a great deal of reading.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have an impression that his knowledge—that he was, if I may use this expression, that he had a superficial knowledge as distinguished from a close study with a critical leader or teacher pointing out to him the fundamental distinctions between these systems?
Mr.Stuckey. It would be difficult to say. It was apparent he was acquainted with a wide body of facts and he knew appropriate words and such from historical points concerning the development of Marxism.
Mr.Jenner. You see I am seeking your impression at the time and not one that you have formed since.
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; right. Well, I had not run across many Marxists in my time, and I guess this was about the first professional Marxist I had run across, and he impressed me as knowing something about the subject. But again it was difficult to appraise the full measure of his learning because of his oblique way of answering questions and dodging questions whenever he did not want to speak about a particular point. I would hesitate to say whether it was superficial or not. I just don't know that much about it.
Mr.Jenner. Give me your impression of his demeanor.
Mr.Stuckey. Confident.
Mr.Jenner. Confident, self-assured?
Mr.Stuckey. Self-assured, logical.
Mr.Jenner. Able to handle questions?
Mr.Stuckey. Very well qualified to handle questions, articulate. There was a little bit of a woodenness in his voice at times, and a little stiff. This was another impression of mine about Oswald, his academic manner. If he could use a six-syllableword——
Mr.Jenner. You mean demeanor?
Mr.Stuckey. Demeanor; yes. If he could use a six-syllable word instead of a two-syllable word, he would do so. Now that characteristic in itself would not tend to make it that his learning was superficial.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the impression he searched for the multisyllable word?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes, yes; as I say, he would prefer that. I don't know why—of course, this is all hindsight, but it occurred to me he would be the type of man who would not use the word, say, "murder," when he could use something a little more formal like "act of violence," this sort of thing. It was, as a matter of fact, his manner was sort of quasi-legal. It was almost as if he had—as if he were a young attorney. He seemed to be very well acquainted with the legal terminology dealing with constitutional rights.
Mr.Jenner. Did this discussion become heated?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; it did. It got rather heated. Mr. Butler, in particular, more or less took the offensive, and attempted to trip him up a few times on questions, questions about the nature of Marxism and of the nature of the Castro regime and this sort of thing, and Mr. Oswald handled himself very well, as usual. I think that we finished him on that program. I think that after that program the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, if there ever was one in New Orleans, had no future there, because we had publicly linked the Fair Play for Cuba Committee with a fellow who had lived in Russia for 3 years and who was an admitted Marxist.
The interesting thing, or rather the danger involved, was the fact that Oswald seemed like such a nice, bright boy and was extremely believable before this. We thought the fellow could probably get quite a few members if he was really indeed serious about getting members. We figured after this broadcast of August 21, why, that was no longer possible.
Mr.Jenner. The broadcast ran approximately how long?
Mr.Stuckey. Twenty-five minutes.
Mr.Jenner. And after the broadcast broke up was that the last of your contacts with Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. No; it wasn't. The others left, and Oswald looked a little dejected, and I said, "Well, let's go out and have a beer," and he says, "All right." So we left the studio and went to a bar called Comeaux's Bar. It is about a half-block from the studio and this was the first time that his manner kind of changed from the quasi-legal position, and he relaxed a little bit. This was the first time I ever saw him relaxed and off of his guard. We had about an hour's conversation, 45 minutes to an hour, maybe a little more, maybe a little less, and, by the way, I mentioned his suit being rather gawky cut, and he told me afterward the suit was purchased in Russia, and they didn't know much about making clothes over there. Would you like me to tell you about the conversation?
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I would.
Mr.Stuckey. We covered a number of points because I was relaxed, as far as I was concerned professionally I had no other occasion to contact Oswald. He was off the spot. So we just had a little conversation. During that conversation he told me that he was reading at that time about Indonesian communism, and that he was reading everything he could get his hands on. He offered an opinion about Sukarno, that he was not really a Communist, that he was merely an opportunist who was using the Communists.
We had a discussion about alcohol. I noticed he wasn't doing very good with his beer, and it was a hot night, and he made a reference to that. He said, "Well, you see, I am not used to drinking beer. I am a vodka drinker." And he said, "My father-in-law taught me how to drink vodka," and then he proceeded to tell me that his father-in-law, who was the father of his wife Marina, was a Russian Army colonel, and mentioned that as an army colonel he earned quite a bit more money than Oswald was earning in Russia. Oswald told me at that time he was making about 80 rubles a month as a factory worker, whereas his father-in-law, the Colonel, was making something like 300 rubles a month, so he could afford all the vodka he wanted, and he says that is who taught him to drink vodka. May I refresh mymemory——
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. With some notes?
Mr.Jenner. Yes. You have mentioned Marina for the first time when you cited her a moment ago. Had he mentioned her prior to that time?
Mr.Stuckey. Not by name. He only referred to her as "my wife."
Mr.Jenner. Had he identified her as to her origin here or in Russia?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; this was afterward. Naturally when we brought up this business about the Russian residence, he mentioned she was a Russian girl and spoke no English. He said that was the way he wanted it because it gave him an opportunity to keep up his Russian. He wanted to keep his Russian up, and so they spoke nothing but Russian in the home.
Mr.Jenner. Did he say anything about having any family?
Mr.Stuckey. He mentioned a wife and child. Now on the first broadcast on Saturday the 17th he mentioned, you will recall, in that brief digest of his background, he said he had been in the Marine Corps and then had left and gone to Texas and had recently arrived in New Orleans with his wife and his child. So in that case he mentioned that he did have a daughter and a wife. I see something I have omitted about the first meeting I had with him on the morning of August 17th.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. At his home.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that.
Mr.Stuckey. He told me at that time he was working as an assistant to a commercial photographer in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. You made no check on that?
Mr.Stuckey. No; I didn't check him out.
Mr.Jenner. You were not then aware of the fact that, the fact was that he was not an assistant to a commercial photographer.
Mr.Stuckey. No; I was not aware of that.
Mr.Jenner. Did he tell you where he was working?
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. You were not aware, therefore, at that time he was at that time an oiler or a greaser at the Reily Coffee Co.
Mr.Stuckey. Is that correct?
Mr.Jenner. He was out of work at that time, but he had been.
Mr.Stuckey. I never could figure out why he referred to the trade of photography. Had he been involved in photography?
Mr.Jenner. When he was in Dallas prior to his coming to New Orleans in the spring of 1963, he had been an apprentice with a company, Jaggars-Chiles-Stovall, a commercial advertising photographing company that produced advertising materials, mats, and photographs, and that sort of thing. He worked in the darkroom. He had very limited experience.
Mr.Stuckey. That apparently is what he was referring to.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. Here is some additional information if you would like me to bring this out.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; go ahead.
Mr.Stuckey. I am going to the conversation after the broadcast of the 21st, this is with Oswald and me at Comeaux's Bar. I asked him at that time how he became interested in Marxism and he said that there are many books on the subject in any public library. I asked him if he, if his family was an influence on him in any way. He says, "No," and he kind of looked a little amused. He said, "No," he says, "They are pretty much typical New Orleans types," and that was about all he said.
Mr.Jenner. Did he mention his mother?
Mr.Stuckey. No; he didn't. As a matter of fact, when we referred to his family, all his references were in the plural, and it was my impression that he had a mother and a father, sisters, aunts, uncles and everybody, because the general impression was that there were a number of people in the family. I was surprised to find out that it wasn't true, later.
Mr.Jenner. Well, he had relatives in New Orleans, the Murret family.
Mr.Stuckey. I see.
Mr.Jenner. Mrs. Murret is—Marguerite Oswald, that is his mother—that was her sister.
Mr.Stuckey. He told me that he had begun to read Marx and Engels at the age of 15, but he said the conclusive thing that made him decide that Marxismwas the answer was his service in Japan. He said living conditions over there convinced him something was wrong with the system, and that possibly Marxism was the answer. He said it was in Japan that he made up his mind to go to Russia and see for himself how a revolutionary society operates, a Marxist society.
Mr.Jenner. He thought that Russia was a Marxist society?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you question or discuss with him whether he found that the system in Russia was a Marxist society or whether itwas——
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; he wasn't very pleased apparently with some of the aspects of Russian political life. Particularly in the factories he said that a lot of the attitudes and this sort of thing was the same sort of attitude that you would find in an American factory. There was a lot of dead-heading, as we say in Louisiana. I don't know what your expression is.
Mr.Jenner. Goldbricking.
Mr.Stuckey. Goldbricking. The boss' relatives on the payrolls at nice salaries.
Mr.Jenner. Nepotism.
Mr.Stuckey. Nepotism, this sort of thing. Anybody with any authority at all would just use it to death to get everybody extra privileges that they could, and a lot of dishonesty, padding of production figures and this sort of thing. He said he wasn't very impressed.
Mr.Jenner. Were you curious as to why he had come back to the United States and did you, if you were curious, discuss that subject with him?
Mr.Stuckey. I don't believe I did. As a matter of fact, I wasn't curious at the time. We just accepted the fact that he had. In hindsight we should have asked a lot of questions about him.
Mr.Jenner. The newspaper material that you had read, there was, was there not, something about his dishonorable discharge from the Marines?
Mr.Stuckey. No; I don't recall any reference to that in the newspapers. Incidentally, Oswald had told me and had produced a discharge card that he was honorably discharged from the Marine Corps. He produced a card showing this.
Mr.Jenner. When had he done that?
Mr.Stuckey. This was the night of the 17th at the radio station. Why he did this I don't know. I forget what the circumstances were. I recognized the card because, after all, I was a marine myself and I had one exactly like it.
Mr.Jenner. Did you, in the tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar discuss with him his attempt, when in Russia, to renounce his American citizenship?
Mr.Stuckey. No; we didn't, because that was alluded to in the broadcast and, as far as I was concerned, it was satisfactorily answered.
Mr.Jenner. He does respond—you say, and I am now turning to the document identified as Stuckey Exhibit No. 3, a transcript of that radio debate—in your preliminary remarks you advert to the fact that you had sought an independent source, Washington newspaper clippings—you advert to the fact that Mr. Oswald, and I am reading, "Mr. Oswald had attempted to renounce his American citizenship in 1959 and become a Soviet citizen.
"There was another clipping dated 1952 saying Mr. Oswald had returned from the Soviet Union with his wife and child after having lived there 3 years. Mr. Oswald, are these correct?" And he responds, "That is correct." I might say for the record that the date 1952 is the date that appears in this transcript, but the fact is that it was 1962. That was either a slip of the tongue or it is a typographical error, is that correct?
Mr.Stuckey. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. But in this informal conversation following the broadcast you did not pursue these subjects?
Mr.Stuckey. Not those. We discussed other subjects. He made another observation about life in Russia. He said things were extremely bland, homogenized.
Mr.Jenner. Did he elaborate on that?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I thought it was interesting.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that, please.
Mr.Stuckey. He said that nobody—everybody seems to be almost alike in Russia because, after all, they had eliminated a lot of the dissenting elements in Russian society and had achieved fairly homogenous blend of population as a result.
Mr.Jenner. That was an observation on his part, was it, of an aspect of Russian society that disappointed him?
Mr.Stuckey. I don't know. I don't recall him expressing an opinion as to whether he was disappointed by that. It was a comment. His tone was slightly acid as if he did not like it, but again this is my impression. He did say this which was interesting, he said that they wouldn't allow any Fair Play for Cuba Committees in Russia.
Mr.Jenner. He did?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; he said they just would not because it is the type of organization that Russian society would just suppress.
Mr.Jenner. Russian society?
Mr.Stuckey. The Russian authorities would suppress.
Mr.Jenner. Russian authorities suppress any militant organization of this character.
Mr.Stuckey. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. Whether it was Fair Play for Cuba or anything else that is militant in the sense of being openly critical of the Russian society and Russian politics?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did he observe on that subject, did he observe in the sense of his feeling that in America you are permitted within the bounds of the Constitution to enjoy free speech and criticize your Government as distinguished from not being able to do so in Russia?
Mr.Stuckey. He didn't add anything other than what I have already said, but the implication was that we can do that here. "After all, you know here I have this organization and I am doing this. They probably would not let me do a similar thing in Russia," and this was his tone.
Mr.Jenner. Do you have any impression as to his regard or judgment with respect to the government in which he was, whose privileges he was then exercising?
Mr.Stuckey. No; he had given lip service a time or two to the fact that he considered himself a loyal American. He was constantly referring to rights, constitutional rights, and he made some historical references. He illustrated the development of these rights in America.
Mr.Jenner. Did this informal conversation at Comeaux's Bar go on, you said, for about an hour?
Mr.Stuckey. Approximately an hour.
Mr.Jenner. Was he comfortable in the sense—was he eager, was hepleased——
Mr.Stuckey. He was relaxed, he was friendly. He seemed to be relieved it was all over. My impression was he was relieved that he did not have to hide the bit about the Russian residence any more, and that it had been a strain doing so, because his manner was completely different. There wasn't the stiffness or the guarded words and guarded replies. He seemed fairly open, and I have no reason to believe that everything he told me that night was not true. I think it was true.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any difference in his attitude or demeanor with respect to personal self-confidence, for example, in that Saturday interview at his home and your interview with him prior to the Monday night broadcast, taking that as a base, and comparing it with his attitude in Comeaux's Bar after you had revealed the fact that he had been in Russia and had attempted to defect?
Mr.Stuckey. Well, there wasn't any change. He was pretty consistent in his behavior from the very first time I met him until Comeaux's Bar, so this was the only notable change I observed. The manner was always guarded, even from the very first when he came out on his porch on August 17 in his dungarees, his manner was guarded.
Mr.Jenner. Was it guarded in Comeaux's?
Mr.Stuckey. No; it was not.
Mr.Jenner. This was much more relaxed?
Mr.Stuckey. Considerably.
Mr.Jenner. Following that tete-a-tete in Comeaux's Bar for about an hour, did you ever see Oswald after that?
Mr.Stuckey. That was the last time I ever saw him.
Mr.Jenner. When was the next time you heard of Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. On November 22, 1963.
Mr.Jenner. What was that occasion?
Mr.Stuckey. The assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr.Jenner. How was it raised, what brought it to your attention?
Mr.Stuckey. I was watching a TV news broadcast at the time, and they had a bulletin in which they said a suspect had been arrested in the assassination, and they mentioned Lee Harvey Oswald, and I fell to the ground practically; I was surprised.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a video tape?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes. Following the debate show of August 21, Bill Slatter, the radio announcer, decided that some news had been made that night on the show, so he took Oswald back to the studio to repeat some of the statements he had made on the radio show for video tape. And they interviewed Oswald for quite a while, I would say for 5 minutes. But I understand that that night they only ran a brief excerpt of that tape, and the rest of it they threw away.
Mr.Jenner. The station has supplied us with what tape they did not throw away, the video tape.
Mr.Stuckey. They are not throwing away anything at that station any more, by the way, now.
Mr.Jenner. I suppose not. Without speculation on your part, if you have a recollection, do you recall whether he was right handed or left handed?
Mr.Stuckey. I don't recall. I don't believe that he ever had the opportunity to use his hand in such a way you could identify it. I never saw him writing.
Mr.Jenner. At least you never noticed it one way or the other?
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did he smoke?
Mr.Stuckey. No; he did not smoke. Again, this was part of my—of the impression of him that struck me. He seemed like somebody that took very good care of himself, very prudent, temperate, that sort of person. It was my impression Oswald regarded himself as living in a world of intellectual inferiors.
Mr.Jenner. Please elaborate on that. And on what do you base that, please?
Mr.Stuckey. Well, I base a lot of this on the conversation that we had in Comeaux's Bar. After all, I had paid some attention to Oswald, nobody else had particularly, and he seemed to enjoy talking with somebody he didn't regard as a stupid person, and it was my impression he thought that everybody else he had come in contact with was rather cloddish, and got the impression that he thought that he had—his philosophy, the way he felt about things, all this sort of thing, most people just could not understand this, and only an intelligent or educated person could. I don't mean to say that there was any arrogance in his manner. There was just—well, you can spot intelligence, or at least I can, I think, and this was a man who was intelligent, who was aware that he was intelligent, and who would like to have an opportunity to express his intelligence—that was my impression.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you obtain of this man with respect to his volatility, that is, did you get any impression that he was quick to anger?
Mr.Stuckey. No; very well-disciplined, as a matter of fact. After all, he had been provoked on several occasions that afternoon by Bringuier and Butler on the show.
Mr.Jenner. Or that evening.
Mr.Stuckey. That evening; yes. And, of course, Bringuier's attempt to convert him to the cause of Revolutionary Students Directorate was presented in a rather biting way, and Oswald just took it, and just more or less told him that he wasn't interested, whereas other people might have gotten a little mad. After all, you have to recognize that Oswald—they were ganging up on him. There were a bunch of us around there. There were three people who disagreedwith him, and he was only one man, and the fact that he kept his composure with this type of environment indicates discipline.
Mr.Jenner. That is right. Now, I show you a Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A. Do you see Mr. Oswald shown on that exhibit?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Is there a mark or something over his head?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; there is a green cross of some sort.
Mr.Jenner. All right. There is a man to his left, there is an arrow, a vertical arrow, over that man's head. Do you recognize that person?
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. Far to the left, the most extreme left, of the picture is another man with dark glasses on. He has a green vertical stripe over his head. Do you recognize him?
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. Now, to the left of the man with the vertical arrow above his head is a tall rather husky young fellow whose back is turned. Do you, by any chance, recognize him?
Mr.Stuckey. This one?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Stuckey. No.
Mr.Jenner. I will ask you the general question do you recognize anybody depicted on Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A other than Oswald?
Mr.Stuckey. Oswald is the only person I recognize in that picture.
Mr.Jenner. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Do you recognize Oswald on that picture?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; he has the green mark above his head.
Mr.Jenner. That is the vertical mark and it is the only mark on that photograph, is it not?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Directing your attention to the group of men on that photograph in which Oswald is a part although his back is to the group, do you recognize any of those men shown on that photograph?
Mr.Stuckey. No; I recognize nobody.
Mr.Jenner. And to the right side of the girl there are some ladies. Do you recognize any of them?
Mr.Stuckey. I was just looking over that. One of them looks vaguely familiar, but—no; I would have to say. No; I don't know the women.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recognize the vicinity or place shown?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; that is the front of the International Trade Mart Building on Common and Camp Streets in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. If I may have that tape so I can put an exhibit number onit——
Mr.Stuckey. Do you want to take it now rather than go through all the letter-writing proceedings?
Mr.Jenner. I am not going to take it, but I am going to mark it and give it back to you. I don't want to have possession of it. I just want to look tosee——
Mr.Stuckey. Would it be easier for the Commission if it were made into a record rather than a tape? I have a record that I have made, my own personal record.
Mr.Jenner. I will inquire about that. It possibly might be better. You mean a platter, a disc?
Mr.Stuckey. A platter, a disc.
Mr.Jenner. I suppose a tape is easier to preserve. A hundred years from now this tape would be just as true as it is today, that is assuming it is kept under good conditions, whereas a platter might deteriorate.
Mr.Stuckey. That is true.
Mr.Jenner. So I think we had better have the tape.
Mr.Stuckey. The disc would start decomposing after about the 25th time you played them, and also they get scratched and such. But one thing is you can't erase a record and you can erase a tape. That is the kind of nightmares you have with a tape. I was afraid to have a copy made of that thing for along time just out of fear somebody might make a mistake and it would be erased.
Mr.Jenner. You have insured against that by your disk, a platter?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Stuckey, was a recording made on audio tape of the 37-minute interview that you had with Mr. Oswald on Monday, the 17th of August?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I have made one record which is strictly for my own use.
Mr.Jenner. You say you made it?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it it was made for you by somebody?
Mr.Stuckey. It was made for me by Cosimo's Recording Studio in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. From what source was the tape made by the commercial company you have named?
Mr.Stuckey.From——
Mr.Jenner. What was used to make the tape? Did you have a tape and you made a copy of the tape?
Mr.Stuckey. No; they took my original tape and from that they made the disc.
Mr.Jenner. I see. We are a little confused here. You have an audio tape of the 37-minute interview, do you?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I do.
Mr.Jenner. And you also have a wax disk?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. It is the wax disk which is the disk recording from the original tape?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. And it is the wax disk that was made by the commercial people you have named?
Mr.Stuckey. True.
Mr.Jenner. What I am getting at, Mr. Stuckey, was an audio tape transcript made of your interview with him on the 17th of August 1963?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Who made the original tape?
Mr.Stuckey. The original tape was made by WDSU radio in the studios of WDSU, and the engineer doing the taping was Mr. Al Campin.
Mr.Jenner. Do you know what happened to that original tape?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I have it; it is in my possession.
Mr.Jenner. Did you bring it with you today?
Mr.Stuckey. No; this is a copy which you have in your hand.
Mr.Jenner. Did you bring a copy of that tape, which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct?
Mr.Jenner. From what source did you obtain the original tape?
Mr.Stuckey. From WDSU. When the management of WDSU decided not to run that tape but instead to have the debate, the second show, then they gave me the tape.
Mr.Jenner. What is now marked as Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 is a reproduction on tape of the original tape?
Mr.Stuckey. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Who made the reproduction which is Stuckey Exhibit No. 4?
Mr.Stuckey. Cosimo's Recording Studio.
Mr.Jenner. Where are they located? Do you happen offhand to recall the address?
Mr.Stuckey. It is on Governor Nichol's Street in the 500 block.
Mr.Jenner. Would you tell us the full name of that company?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; Cosimo's Recording Studio, I believe it is.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have more than one tape reproduction made of that?
Mr.Stuckey. Yes; I have had—how many do I have? I have two copies and the record in addition to the original tape, so there are four pieces of, four items involved.
Mr.Jenner. You will recall, Mr. Stuckey, that you were good enough when I was in New Orleans to take me over to the radio station, what is the name of it again?
Mr.Stuckey. WDSU.
Mr.Jenner. WDSU, and there was played in my presence and in my hearing a tape transcript of your 37-minute interview with Oswald on the 17th of August 1963. Is the tape which I have in my hand, marked Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, the tape that was played that evening in my presence?
Mr.Stuckey. It is.
Mr.Jenner. And it is in the same condition now as it was at the time I heard it?
Mr.Stuckey. Exactly.
Mr.Jenner. It is in the same condition now as it was when it was prepared by Cosimo's?
Mr.Stuckey. Correct.
Mr.Jenner. Subject to my understanding with you that you will receive a communication from Mr. Rankin respecting the preservation of this tape against commercial use, I offer Stuckey Exhibit No. 4 in evidence. I am going to return the tape to you so that there will be no question in your mind but what, in the meantime, until you do receive Mr. Rankin's letter, that the tape has been in your possession, and no one has made, surreptitiously or otherwise by accident or any fashion, a copy of it.
Mr.Stuckey. Very good.
Mr.Jenner. I think I will state for the record, Mr. Reporter, that in an off-the-record discussion with Mr. Stuckey respecting the audio tape of the interview of August 17, 1963, Stuckey Exhibit No. 4, Mr. Stuckey has agreed that he will supply or return, let us say, Exhibit No. 4 to us upon his receipt of a communication from Mr. Rankin, as counsel for the Commission, that the tape when redelivered to us and becomes part of the record of the Commission, will not be subjected to use for any commercial purpose and reproduction.
Mr.Stuckey. I would like to ask for one qualification.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. I would like my attorney to read over the letterbefore——
Mr.Jenner. Of course.
Mr.Stuckey. Before sending you the tape, and in case we suggest possibly somechanges——
Mr.Jenner. I think that is wise. Since I am returning the tape to you, why, I am sure you won't send it back unless your counsel is satisfied that you are reasonably protected, because we appreciate the fact that this is personal property and that it has some commercial value to you and, frankly, we would be a little bit surprised if you were not concerned about preserving that.
I think that is all. Is there anything that you would like to add, that you think might be helpful to the Commission in its investigation of the assassination of President John Fitzgerald Kennedy?
Mr.Stuckey. I think we have covered just about everything.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Stuckey. Certainly all the hard facts.
Mr.Jenner. What is that?
Mr.Stuckey. I say certainly all the hard facts. The rest is just a lot of speculation and such.
Mr.Jenner. One other thing. Give Bringuier's physical description, describe Bringuier physically to me, please.
Mr.Stuckey. Describe Oswald?
Mr.Jenner. No; Bringuier.
Mr.Stuckey. He is about 5 feet 10 inches. He is not particularly dark-skinned, although his hair is black, his eyes are brown. He has the beginnings of a paunch, although his build is generally rather slender; he wears glasses, smokes cigars. I can't think of a thing else.
Mr.Jenner. OK. I guess that is about it.