Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. And it is dated Nueva Gerona. Where is that?
Mrs.Odio. The capital of Isle of Pines.
Mr.Liebeler. Your father is a prisoner there?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are the prisoners permitted to write letters back and forth?
Mrs.Odio. One letter a month, on one side.
Mr.Liebeler. I would presume that the letters are read by Castro's men?
Mrs.Odio. They are all read. That is why I did not given him a lot of details. I managed to write very small so they would have a time reading it, like he does. You can see how perfectly he writes a letter.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, let me ask you how you managed to establish that these men came in late September. You previously stated that you couldn't remember the date exactly, but you had managed to establish it as being in late September. Would you tell me the procedure that you went through to establish that date in your mind?
Mrs.Odio. I told you my sister Annie was staying with some American friends. She did not live with me. She had gone to live with the Madlock's. And I called her many times to come and babysit for me during certain weekends, and she would come either on a Thursday or Friday, depending on when I called her.
I told her that day that I was going out, but I wanted her to start packing for me because we were moving over to Oak Cliff. It must have been the last days of September, because we had already packages in the living room. We had already started to pack to go, and we had to move by the first of October since my rent was due that day, you see.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you did move?
Mrs.Odio. We did move the first of October to Oak Cliff.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the address of the apartment in which you lived before you moved to Oak Cliff?
Mrs.Odio. Over in, it was, I am almost sure of the number—1024 Magellan Circle. It is the Crestwood Apartments. I am not sure of the number; I think it is.
Mr.Liebeler. In any event, you were living at the Crestwood Apartments at the time these men came to your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. That's right. The Crestwood Apartments are full of Cubans.
Mr.Liebeler. You left the Crestwood Apartments as of the first of October and moved to Oak Cliff?
Mrs.Odio. That's right exactly.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you are absolutely sure that these men came to your apartment before the first of October?
Mrs.Odio. Before the first of October.
Mr.Liebeler. It would have been sometime toward the end of September, because you recall that you had already started to pack to move from the Crestwood Apartments to Oak Cliff?
Mrs.Odio. The packages were in the living room, and Annie was helping me.She was actually taking things out of the closet when they came. It took a long time to be sure of that, but I am certain of that.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed this with your sister, Annie?
Mrs.Odio. We had to, yes, sir; and she was convinced it was in late September. Because she had not come the previous week. For 2 weeks, she had not come, but had come the last week to help me pack and move.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have a lease on your apartment, at the Crestwood Apartments?
Mrs.Odio. No; they don't take you by lease. You give a deposit, and you lose it if you move before 6 months.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you lived at the Crestwood Apartments 6 months?
Mrs.Odio. No. I have told you I moved several times, and it is because of reasons of my work, and because my children at the time were in Puerto Rico, and I went down to get them in Puerto Rico June 29th.
That was exactly the day that I saw Ray again. We had been trying to establish a contact in Dallas with Mr. Johnny Martin, who is from Uruguay. He is from there, and he had heard that I was involved in this movement. And he said that he had a lot of contacts in Latin America to buy arms, particularly in Brazil, and that if he were in contact with one of our chief leaders of the underground, he would be able to sell him second-hand arms that we could use in our revolution.
I don't know if this is legal or illegal, I have no idea. But when he mentioned this fact, I jumped at the possibility that something could be done, because you kind of get desperate when you see your father and mother in prison, and you want to do something for them. So I called Eugenio long distance from Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that, approximately? Shortly after you came back from Puerto Rico?
Mrs.Odio. I think I can give you the exact date. This was before I left for Puerto Rico. June 28, Eugenio arrived from Miami to see Johnny Martin.
Mr.Liebeler. So you say that on June 28 Eugenio arrived from Miami, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. He was supposed to have arrived June 14, but he never did, and I called two times to make another appointment with Johnny, and he just arrived in time for me to see him. Then it was a time when we met, not Alentado, the other one, Alvareda—Rodriguez Alvareda.
So they went to my house. Now, I was living at the time at 6140 Oram Street, the day they arrived. But when I went back to Puerto Rico, the same day, June 29, I saw Ray, and I explained to him what Johnny Martin here in Dallas was up to, and then he said that he was planning a trip also to see if something could be worked out. Mr. Ray himself was planning a trip in connection with that. He was going to Washington to be interviewed by some high official.
Mr.Liebeler. But he was going to come by Dallas first?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. So I went to Ponce, Puerto Rico, to get my children, which were four of them, and I brought them back to Dallas. And this is when I moved to Magellan Circle to a bigger apartment, to the Crestwood Apartments.
Mr.Liebeler. You moved there, after you came back from Puerto Rico with your children?
Mrs.Odio. I moved there exactly the end of July, the end of the month, because I know when I moved, and then it was in August—let's see, I lived there July, August, and to the last day of September in this Magellan Circle, and then I moved to Oak Cliff.
Mr.Liebeler. You actually did meet with Eugenio here in Dallas before you went to Puerto Rico?
Mrs.Odio. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Eugenio come to Dallas at any other time after that to meet you?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times have you met with Eugenio here in Dallas?
Mrs.Odio. Once.
Mr.Liebeler. That was in June of 1963?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. So it was not Eugenio who was with Leon when those men came to your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. No; I would have known Eugenio. He was a very close friend of my family and he did underground activity with my mother and father.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell anybody that it was Eugenio who had come to the apartment with Leon?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Father McKann?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that he called you on the telephone?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; he did call me on the telephone.
Mr.Liebeler. On April 30, 1964?
Mrs.Odio. The date, I don't recall. Probably.
Mr.Liebeler. It was approximately the end of April or early May of 1964 when he called you from New Orleans?
Mrs.Odio. From New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember discussing this whole question with him at that time?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. He asked me if I was withholding evidence of any kind.
Mr.Liebeler. What did you tell him?
Mrs.Odio. I told him that everything that I knew I had already told him, and that I didn't know anything else that I could recall that could be important to you.
Mr.Liebeler. The only time that you were ever interviewed by anybody in connection with this was when Agent Hosty came to your place of work that day, isn't that correct?
Mrs.Odio. That's correct. But three times I noticed a car standing in front of my door where I live on Lovers Lane. I don't know if it belonged to the Secret Service or the FBI, but I was kind of concerned about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell Father McKann that one of the men—did you tell him the names of the men who were there?
Mrs.Odio. I told him what I knew, the names of the men that I knew.
Mr.Liebeler. You told him one was Leopoldo?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. But you did not tell him that you could identify the other man as Eugenio?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not tell him that?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I have a report before me of an interview with Father McKann by a representative of the U.S. Secret Service in which it states that Father McKann told this Secret Service agent that you had told him that one of the men was Eugenio. But you indicated now that that is not so?
Mrs.Odio. No. Perhaps he could have misunderstood me, because he has the same problems with names. Probably I did tell him that the man was not Eugenio.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember discussing with him Eugenio's visit to you in June?
Mrs.Odio. I think I discussed it with him, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. During that telephone conversation?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; I think I discussed it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell Father McKann that the name Oswald was never used in your presence by any of these men?
Mrs.Odio. Never was used except to introduce me, and the time when they left. They did not refer to him as Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. But they did in fact, introduce him as Leon Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. And I shook hands with him.
Mr.Liebeler. That is also what you told Agent Hosty when he interviewed you on December 18, 1963, and that is indicated in his report?
Mrs.Odio. Oh, yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, a report that we have from Agent Hosty indicates that when you told him about Leopoldo's telephone call to you the following day,that you told Agent Hosty that Leopoldo told you he was not going to have anything more to do with Leon Oswald since Leon was considered to be loco?
Mrs.Odio. That's right. He used two tactics with me, and this I have analyzed. He wanted me to introduce this man. He thought that I had something to do with the underground, with the big operation, and I could get men into Cuba. That is what he thought, which is not true.
When I had no reaction to the American, he thought that he would mention that the man was loco and out of his mind and would be the kind of man that could do anything like getting underground in Cuba, like killing Castro. He repeated several times he was an expert shotman. And he said, "We probably won't have anything to do with him. He is kind of loco."
When he mentioned the fact that we should have killed President Kennedy—and this I recall in my conversation—he was trying to play it safe. If I liked him, then he would go along with me, but if I didn't like him, he was kind of retreating to see what my reaction was. It was cleverly done.
Mr.Liebeler. So he actually played both sides of the fence?
Mrs.Odio. That's right, both sides of the fence.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Leopoldo tell you that Leon had been in the Armed Forces?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs.Odio. He said he had been in the Marines. That is what he said.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that Leon could help in the underground activities in which you were presumably engaged?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever talked to Eugenio about this matter since it happened?
Mrs.Odio. No, I have not even contacted him.
Mr.Liebeler. Is your sister Annie in Dallas now?
Mrs.Odio. She is coming now the end of July.
Mr.Liebeler. She is not here now?
Mrs.Odio. No, she is coming from Florida. She is coming to live with me. She spent 6 months with my brother.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us what her address is in Florida?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. She is in—wait 1 second—Southwest 82d Place, Miami, Fla.
Mr.Liebeler. How old were these two men that were with Leon?
Mrs.Odio. One of them must have been—he had a mark on his face like, I can't explain it—his complexion wasn't too soft. He was kind of like as if he had been in the sun. So he must have been about near 40, one of them.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one was that?
Mrs.Odio. But the other one was young. That was the tall one.
Mr.Liebeler. That was not Leopoldo?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Alentado was younger?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How old was he, would you say?
Mrs.Odio. About 34, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now how old would you say Oswald was? Did you form an opinion about that when you saw him at the time?
Mrs.Odio. No; I have never thought about it. I mean, I never thought how old he was. He seemed to be a young man. I mean, not an old man. I would say he was a young man; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you say how old you thought he was after you saw him that day in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. I can't say that. I can establish in my thoughts; yes, I could establish an age, but I didn't think of it at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. What age would you establish you thought about it?
Mrs.Odio. Oh, 34 or 35.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you read the newspapers and watched television since the assassination and observed Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. I read some of it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you read how old he was?
Mrs.Odio. I don't even know what age he is.
Mr.Liebeler. About how tall was he?
Mrs.Odio. He wasn't too tall. He was maybe 4 inches taller than I am.
Mr.Liebeler. How tall are you?
Mrs.Odio. I am 5 feet 6 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. So you think he was about 5 feet 10?
Mrs.Odio. Probably.
Mr.Liebeler. About how was he built? Was he a heavy man or a light man?
Mrs.Odio. He was kind of a skinny man, because the shirt looked big on him, like it was borrowed.
Mr.Liebeler. Like it was borrowed from somebody else?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; that is the impression he gave me, because it kind of hung loose.
Mr.Liebeler. Didn't fit well?
Mrs.Odio. It didn't fit.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever had anything to do with the DRE movement here in Dallas?
Mrs.Odio. Students Revolutionary Council, not at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know any representatives of the DRE?
Mrs.Odio. I just knew one.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was that?
Mrs.Odio. Sarah Castilo. Now, I have heard about the directorate in New Orleans, because I have family there and they told me about all the incidents about him in New Orleans, about Oswald giving propaganda in the street and how he was down in front of a judge and caused a fight with Carlos Bringuier, and that, of course, this man had been working pro-Castro in this Fair Play for Cuba.
Mr.Liebeler. Oswald, you mean?
Mrs.Odio. Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Carlos?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; I have met him. I don't think he would remember me, but I know who Carlos Bringuier is. They call him Carlitos.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you meet him?
Mrs.Odio. I think it was a long time ago in Cuba, or I was introduced to him.
Mr.Liebeler. You have never met him here in the United States?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Who in New Orleans told you about this incident between Bringuier and Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. My family discussed it in New Orleans how he had been handed the propaganda. The other member of the directorate came along, and they had a problem with him, because they were taken in front of a judge. This was true.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you read about that in the newspapers?
Mrs.Odio. No; I haven't. This I know from my family, the information we heard from New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. How much of your family are living in New Orleans?
Mrs.Odio. I have an uncle and a cousin; a married cousin.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one of them told you about this?
Mrs.Odio. I think it was my uncle.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you there at that time?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. In New Orleans?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What is your uncle's name?
Mrs.Odio. Agustin Guitar.
Mr.Liebeler. When was this that you discussed this with him?
Mrs.Odio. February.
Mr.Liebeler. In February of 1964?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. I remember that, because I had just come out of an operation.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a man by the name of Joaquin Martinez de Pinillos?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Emanuel Salvat?
Mrs.Odio. I have heard about him very much. I know who he is, but I don't know him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you associate him with one of the Cuban organizations, Salvat?
Mrs.Odio. If I have heard something about him, it has been attached to some organization.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't remember which one?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it be the DRE?
Mrs.Odio. I can't say for sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a woman by the name of Anna Silvera?
Mrs.Odio. I have heard about her, too.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any idea how these three men came to your apartment? Have you ever thought about it and tried to establish any contact that they might have had with someone else that would have told them to come to your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. They were coming from New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. They came directly from New Orleans to your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. If it was true. It is very easy to find out any Cubans in Dallas. Either you look in the phone book, or you call the Catholic Relief Service. If you say you are a friend of so and so, they will give you information enough. They will tell you where they live and what their phone number is and how to contact them.
Mr.Liebeler. But you have no actual knowledge as to how these men came by your address?
Mrs.Odio. I kind of asked them, and they told me because they knew my family. That is how they established the conversation. They knew him and wanted to help me, and knew I belonged to JURE and all this.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, can you remember anything else about the incident when Leon and the two men came to your apartment, or about the telephone call that you got from Leopoldo, that you haven't already told me about?
Mrs.Odio. No. If I have forgotten something, but I think all the important things I have told you, like the trip, that they were leaving for a trip. And this struck me funny, because why would they want to meet me, if they were leaving for some reason or purpose. And it has been a long time. You don't think about these things every day and I am trying real hard to remember everything I can.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, is there anything else that you think we should know about that we haven't already asked you about in connection with this whole affair?
Mrs.Odio. No. It would be involving my opinion, but anything that is real facts of the thing, that really happened.
Mr.Liebeler. Is this the only time you ever saw the man called Leon Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. The only time.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever told anybody else that you have seen him other times?
Mrs.Odio. No, I don't think. It would be silly to withhold any information. I mean, the involvement was very slight, and look how much involved you get just from meeting him once. I have a pretty good idea who called the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. About what?
Mrs.Odio. You see, I did not call the FBI to tell them this fact.
Mr.Liebeler. Why not?
Mrs.Odio. I was going to, but I had to get around to it to do it myself, because at the time everything was so confused and everybody was so excited about it, and I wanted to wait to see if it was important.
Mr.Liebeler. Who do you think called the FBI?
Mrs.Odio. Mrs. Connell, I think.
Mr.Liebeler. When you were interviewed by the FBI at your place of work, did you have any opinion about the way that interview was conducted?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. It brought me a lot of problems in my work. The two men were extremely polite and nice, the two gentlemen from the FBI. You knowhow people were afraid at the time, and my company, some officials of it were quite concerned that the FBI should have come to see me.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed with Alentado these two men and how they came to see you?
Mrs.Odio. I never talked to him about it. I decided not to mention anything after the FBI came to see me, because I thought they were going to contact him. I think I gave them the address and the telephone number.
Mr.Liebeler. You gave that to the FBI?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. He actually wouldn't know anything about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that because you asked these men if they had been sent by Alentado and they said no?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Connell that you refer to is Mrs. C. L. Connell, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How do you know her?
Mrs.Odio. It is a strange thing. Everything that has happened to me in the past year has been very strange. But I came from Ponce because I was mentally sick at the time. I was very emotionally disturbed, and they thought that a change from Puerto Rico to Dallas where my sister was would improve me, which it did, of course.
And I was supposed to see Dr. Cowley in Terrell. He is a Cuban psychiatrist, but he was busy at the time and he couldn't help me. Mrs. Connell belonged to the mental health and at the time she had helped the Cuban group some because they had money, and I was introduced by my sister.
Mr.Liebeler. Which one?
Mrs.Odio. Sarita. She actually sent part of the money for my trip to come here to Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. So I met her. We became very, very close friends, extremely close, and she talked to Dr. Stubblefield and she got me a psychiatrist which was Dr. Einspruch. I was here 4 months before I went to get my children. We were close, like I said.
Mr.Liebeler. What makes you think she called the FBI about this?
Mrs.Odio. I am not certain of this, but I did discuss this with her after it happened, because I trusted her completely. I discussed it and told her that I was frightened, I didn't know what to do. I did not know if it was anything of importance that I should tell the FBI. And I was the only person—she was the only person I told.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch about it?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; but the things you talk with a doctor in an office, he will tell you before that he is going to say it. He would have told me, "I am going to tell the FBI." You have to trust a doctor, especially a psychiatrist. I know they talked to him later, but I don't think it was him that called the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell Mrs. Connell that you had seen Oswald at some anti-Castro meetings, and that he had made some talks to these groups of refugees, and that he was very brilliant and clever and captivated the people to whom he had spoken?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You are sure you never told her that?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen Oswald at any meetings?
Mrs.Odio. Never. This is something when you talk to somebody, she probably was referring—we did have some meetings, yes. John Martino spoke, who was an American, who was very clever and brilliant. I am not saying that she is lying at all. When you are excited, you might get all your facts mixed up, and Martino was one of the men who was in Isle of Pines for 3 years. And he mentioned the fact that he knew Mr. Odio, that Mr. Odio's daughters were in Dallas, and she went to that meeting. I did not go, because they kept it quiet from me so I would not get upset about it. I don't know if you know who John Martino is.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the same man as Johnny Martin?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. A different one?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is he?
Mrs.Odio. Martino is one that has written a book called "I was a Prisoner in Castro Cuba," and he was on the Isle of Pines for 3 years. He came to Dallas and gave a talk to the Cubans about conditions in Cuba, and she was one of the ones that went to the meeting.
Mr.Liebeler. Mrs. Connell?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; and my sister Annie went, too.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Dr. Einspruch tell you that he had talked to the FBI?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. About this?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you roughly what his conversation with the FBI was?
Mrs.Odio. He told me that they had asked him if I had hallucinations, that I was a person who was trying to make up some kind of story. That was the context of our story. I trusted Dr. Einspruch very much. He always told me the truth.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you he had told the FBI that you did not have hallucinations and you had probably not made this up?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. Other people make it up,but——
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mr. Einspruch tell you he had discussed this question with some representatives of the President's Commission?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what that conversation was about?
Mrs.Odio. He told me that they had talked about an hour and a half about this whole thing, and he told them that he had already told me the whole facts of the thing, and he said let's not mention it any more. You know what we discussed. Don't be afraid.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you still seeing Dr. Einspruch?
Mrs.Odio. No; I am through with therapy. He left.
Mr.Liebeler. He is no longer in Dallas?
Mrs.Odio. No; he left for Philadelphia for the U.S. Naval Hospital.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you tell Dr. Einspruch that you had seen Oswald in more than one anti-Castro Cuban meeting?
Mrs.Odio. No; I don't think so, because I have never seen him before except the day he came to the door.
Mr.Liebeler. You have never seen him since?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You told us before that you had a fainting spell after you heard about the assassination. Would you tell us about that, please?
Mrs.Odio. Well, I had been having fainting spells all the past year. I would pass out for hours, and this was part of my emotional problems. I was doing quite well except that I had come back from lunch, and I cannot deny that the news was a great shock to me, and I did pass out. I was taken in an ambulance to a hospital in Irving.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you pass out as soon as you had heard that the President had been shot?
Mrs.Odio. No; when I started thinking about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard that Oswald was involved in it before you passed out?
Mrs.Odio. Can I say something off the record?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
(Witness talks off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. At this point, let's go back on the record. You indicated that you thought perhaps the three men who had come to your apartment had something to do with the assassination?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you thought of that before you had the fainting spell?
Mrs.Odio. Yes. Of course, I have "psychiatric thinking." My psychiatrist says I have psychiatric thinking. I mean, I can perceive things very well.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of thinking?
Mrs.Odio. He says I have tremendous intuition about things and psychiatric thinking, which has helped me many times. So immediately, for some reason, in my mind, I established a connection between the two greasy men that had come to my door and the conversation that the Cubans should have killed President Kennedy, and I couldn't believe it. I was so upset about it. So probably the lunch had something to do with it, too, and I was so upset, but that is probably why I passed out.
Mr.Liebeler. Had you heard the name Oswald before you passed out?
Mrs.Odio. No, sir. It was only the connection.
Mr.Liebeler. You had made the connection in your mind between these three men that came to your apartment, and the assassination?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Primarily because of the remarks they had made about how the Cubans should have assassinated President Kennedy because of the Bay of Pigs situation, is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. You had not seen any pictures of Oswald or heard his name prior to the time of your passing out?
Mrs.Odio. No; I don't recall—maybe you could tell me what the exact time they mentioned by the radio the name of the suspect. They spoke of a suspect all the time, but they did not mention any name. And I think I came out about 8 o'clock that night. They gave me a shot, so I did not know any name until that night.
Mr.Liebeler. What time did you pass out?
Mrs.Odio. I came back from lunch about 5 minutes before 1 o'clock, because we had to punch the clock at 1, and by 1:30 we knew the President was dead, and we all decided to leave, and it was about 10 minutes to 2 that we walked out of the office, and I think I passed out back in the warehouse.
Mr.Liebeler. Just after you left the office?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. So it would have been sometime before 2 o'clock or right after?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did these men indicate that they had all come from New Orleans together?
Mrs.Odio. I am pretty sure that is what he said. Either that they had been, or that they had just come. I cannot be sure of either one, but they had been in New Orleans, or had just come from New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you recognize these men again if you saw their pictures, do you think?
Mrs.Odio. I think I could recognize one of them.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think they definitely look like Cubans?
Mrs.Odio. Well, this is my opinion. They looked very much like Mexicans. But I might be wrong at that, because I don't remember any Mexican accent. But the color of Mexicans, when I am referring to greasy, that kind of complexion, that is what I mean.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first become aware of the fact that this man who had been at your apartment was the man who had been arrested in connection with the assassination?
Mrs.Odio. It was immediately.
Mr.Liebeler. As soon as you saw his picture?
Mrs.Odio. Immediately; I was so sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any doubt about it?
Mrs.Odio. I don't have any doubts.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have any doubt about it then?
Mrs.Odio. I kept saying it can't be to myself; it just can't be. I mean it couldn't be, but when my sister walked into the hospital and she said, "Sylvia, have you seen the man?" And I said, "Yes." And she said, "That was the man that was at the door of my house." So I had no doubts then.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you recognize this man's voice?
Mrs.Odio. I don't know. I am not sure.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a photograph that has been marked as Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, and ask you if you can identify anybody in that photograph?
Mrs.Odio. That is Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. With the X?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recognize anybody else in the picture?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. I specifically call your attention to the man standing to Oswald's right, the second man behind him, who is facing the camera and has in his hand some leaflets.
Mrs.Odio. Does he have some glasses on?
Mr.Liebeler. The man that I just described?
Mrs.Odio. Does he have any glasses?
Mr.Liebeler. Let me see the picture.
Mrs.Odio. He has the same build that that man has in the back.
Mr.Liebeler. He has the same build?
Mrs.Odio. A lot of hair here [pointing to the right temple].
Mr.Liebeler. You are pointing to this man here?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that his hair appeared to be pulled back in some way?
Mrs.Odio. One of them, Leopoldo, or the other one. One has very thick hair.
Mr.Liebeler. You are describing Leopoldo?
Mrs.Odio. He had hair in front, but he has it pushed back in here.
Mr.Liebeler. Like sort of a bald spot in his front?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Excuse me just a minute, I will be back. Now, you have indicated that the individual standing immediately behind Oswald and to his left, actually in front of the door of this building might look something like one of the men that was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. That's right. That height and that tall.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, what about the man standing immediately next to him, so we have in the picture starting from the right, a head, and then a man standing in the opposite direction from Oswald, and then we have Oswald, and then we have the individual that you have just referred to about his pushed back hair, or the bald spot in the front, and then we have another man who has a group of leaflets in his hand.
Mrs.Odio. He looks familiar, but I don't think that was one of the men I saw there at the door. I don't know, Cubans sometimes have the same physique and everything, the narrowness of the shoulders. I mean the back looks something like this man I am telling you about.
Mr.Liebeler. But you are unable to identify positively anybody else in the picture other than Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. No; that's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, which appears to show a front view of the man with the bald spot, and I ask you if you recognize him as one of the men that was with Oswald in the apartment.
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you sure that it was not, or you are unable to say?
Mrs.Odio. No; that man was thinner and a little taller than that picture.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you arereferring——
Mrs.Odio. I am referring to this man now.
Mr.Liebeler. You are referring to a man with the white shirt whose back is toward the camera?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the man immediately behind Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. No; he was taller than that.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's refer to this as No. 1. Does it appear to you that the man who is standing sort of sideways to the camera immediately behind Oswaldin Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same man as this man who is immediately behind Oswald and facing away from the camera in Bringuier Exhibit No. 1?
Mrs.Odio. No; it seems like a different back to me. Actually, possibly the same person, but for some reason, maybe the picture gives him a slimmer look.
Mr.Liebeler. You keep referring in Pizzo's exhibit to the man whose back is to the camera with a white shirt?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; he came with a white shirt.
Mr.Liebeler. I am having trouble, because I first thought that this man here, who I will mark with the number 1 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B is the same as the man who I will mark as No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1, but it appears that that is not so?
Mrs.Odio. No; this man is this man in the picture.
Mr.Liebeler. So we have established that No. 2 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is the same as the man marked No. 1 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B?
Mrs.Odio. Exactly.
Mr.Liebeler. And the man who we will mark 2 in Pizza's Exhibit No. 453-B is the man marked 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, as far as the man marked No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1 is concerned, you think when you see him there, that might look like the man who was in the apartment?
Mrs.Odio. He has the same build in the back, and same kind of profile, this side. Here he looks a little broader, and that is not him. It is the same man, but that wasn't the way Leopoldo looked.
Mr.Liebeler. So the man marked 2 in Exhibit No. 453-B, Pizzo, does not look like the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. No.
Mr.Liebeler. You cannot in any event recognize the man who we shall mark 3 in both pictures; is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. Correct. Let me look at that man here [looking]. He wasn't one of them, but he looks so familiar to somebody, this one, the one that has his hand on his face.
Mr.Liebeler. You indicate that the man who we shall mark 4 in Pizzo's Exhibit No. 453-B looks somewhat familiar?
Mrs.Odio. Somewhat familiar; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I show you Pizzo Exhibit 453-A and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs.Odio. Who is this man?
Mr.Liebeler. You are referring to the man who we shall mark 1 on Exhibit No. 453-A. Does he look familiar to you?
Mrs.Odio. The color of him looks familiar. That was more or less the color of that short man. He did not look real white.
Mr.Liebeler. Does it appear to you that the man we have marked 1 in Exhibit No. 453-A is an oriental?
Mrs.Odio. Is an oriental?
Mr.Liebeler. I don't know. Does it look like it to you?
Mrs.Odio. I don't know. I am just talking about the color of his face, the same color. Now he looks more familiar in this picture, you see.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say this, you point to the man who we will mark 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and he is the same man who is No. 2 in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and No. 1 in Bringuier's Exhibit No. 1? They all seem to be the same man, don't they?
Mrs.Odio. I think they are all the same man, but for some reason in this picture, he is wearing glasses, isn't he?
Mr.Liebeler. Well, it looks like it; doesn't it?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did this man wear glasses who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. He did?
Mrs.Odio. Didn't wear them all the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, do you recognize Oswald in any of these pictures; in Exhibit No. 453-A?
Mrs.Odio. [Pointing.]
Mr.Liebeler. You indicate the man with the green X over his head as being Oswald, and that is the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. He looks a little bit fatter. I don't know if it is the picture. He looked thinner when he was in the apartment, than he looks in this picture. He was kind of drawn when he was there. His face was kind of drawn. But he looks more familiar there. He looks more like he looked that day.
Mr.Liebeler. In Exhibit No. 453-B, the man with the green line over his head looks more like the man that was in your apartment; is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any doubt that that man with the green line over his head in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B was the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. Well, if it is not, it is his twin.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I show you a photograph that has been marked Garner Exhibit No. 1 and ask you if you recognize that man.
Mrs.Odio. That is Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you sure?
Mrs.Odio. He doesn't have the little thing, the little moustache that he had that day. He looks shaved there, and he did not look shaved that day.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C and ask you if that looks like the man who was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. That is not the expression he had, but he has the same forehead and everything. But his lips, the only thing that confuses me is the lips that did not look like the same man. It is that unshaved thing that got me that day.
Mr.Liebeler. Does Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C appear to you, does the man in that picture appear to be somewhat unshaven, or similar to the one you saw in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. I think he was not. The only thing he had not shaved was around where the mouth is, and everything else was shaved. That is way he looked, kind of clothes hanging on him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think this man in Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C is Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; I think that is him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think that is the man that was in your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. Well, let me say something. I think this man was the one that was in my apartment. I am not too sure of that picture. He didn't look like this. He was smiling that day. He was more smiling than in this picture.
Mr.Liebeler. We have to put the pictures down on the record, because when somebody reads the record—you say thathe——
Mrs.Odio. He looks more relaxed in Exhibit No. 453-C. He looks more smiling, like Exhibit No. 453-B, or different countenance.
Mr.Liebeler. I have some motion pictures of the scene that we have been looking at here in these still pictures. These pictures that have been marked Exhibit Nos. 453-B and 453-C were taken from a movie that was made of that, and we also have on that movie a picture of Lee Oswald as he appeared on the television program in New Orleans on a sound track. I want you to look at those pictures and tell us after you have looked at the pictures if you think that man was the same man who was in your apartment.
I have not yet made arrangements for the projector to be set up, and there is an FBI agent bringing another picture over here from the FBI office that I want you to look at this morning before you leave. But I would like to have you—and I have another witness waiting for me, and I have nine more witnesses. Could you come back later this evening to look at the motion pictures? And in the meantime, I will have the Secret Service set up a projection room to view the films?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Why don't we terminate momentarily now, and as soon as the FBI comes over, I will show you this picture, and I will call the Secret Serviceand find out when he can set up the viewing of this film, and I will tell you what time to come back.
Mrs.Odio. Since I am going to be downtown, do you want me to come back any special time?
Mr.Liebeler. I will tell you as soon as I talk to Mr. Sorrels.
Mrs.Odio. Before I leave?
Mr.Liebeler. I can't tell you before you leave. I will see if I can set up a time. When you say that these men came to your apartment in late September of 1963, can you give me your best recollection as to how long before the first of October they came? You moved out of your apartment in the Crestwood Apartments on the very last day of September; is that correct? Or can you remember? Is there any way you can check that by finding out when you moved into your apartment in Oak Cliff?
Mrs.Odio. The day I moved, I had gone to work, so it must have been on a Monday or Tuesday. This man must have come by the end of the previous weekend.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a 1963 calendar and point out to you that the last day of September was Monday.
Mrs.Odio. That is probably the day I moved.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you say that you also started working at a new job that same day?
Mrs.Odio. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. But you had been working on the day that you did move?
Mrs.Odio. I started working initially the 15th of September, because it was too far away where I lived in Irving. I started the 15th of September, I am almost sure of the 15th or the 9th. Let me see what day was the 9th. It was a Monday. It was the 9th, sir, that I started working at National Chemsearch.
(Special Agent Bardwell O. Odum of the Federal Bureau of Investigation entered the hearing room.)
Mr.Liebeler. This is Mr. Odum from the FBI. As a matter of fact, Mr. Odum was the man that interviewed you.
Mrs.Odio. I remember. He looked very familiar.
Mr.Odum. What is the name?
Mrs.Odio. Odio.
Mr.Odum. I interview so many people, it slips my mind at the moment.
(Agent Odum left the hearing room.)
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you have indicated on the calendar, you circled the 30th of September, and you drew a line around the 26th, 27th, and 28th of September. Can you tell me what you meant by that?
Mrs.Odio. The 30th was the day I moved. The 26th, 27th, and 28th, it could have been either of those 3 days. It was not on a Sunday.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you indicated previously that Leopoldo called you the immediately following day after they had been there; is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. That's correct.
Mr.Liebeler. And you also testified, according to my recollection, that you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you; is that correct?
Mrs.Odio. Yes; it would be the 26th or the 27th for sure.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you work on Saturday?
Mrs.Odio. No; but he could have called me Saturday. But they would have come Thursday or Friday.
Mr.Liebeler. Thursday or Friday?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Because you had been at work on the day they came?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether you had been at work on the day that Leopoldo called you?
Mrs.Odio. I don't recall that.
Mr.Liebeler. You can't recall that?
Mrs.Odio. No. I know I was very busy with the kids, but I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a picture which depicts the same individual that is depicted in an exhibit which has previously been marked Commission Exhibit No. 237, and I ask you if you recognize that man.
Mrs.Odio. No, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. That is not the man that was with Leon when he came to your apartment?
Mrs.Odio. No. I wish I could point him to you. One was very tall and slim, kind of. He had glasses, because he took them off and put them back on before he left, and they were not sunglasses. And the other one was short, very Mexican looking. Have you ever seen a short Mexican with lots of thick hair and a lot of hair on his chest?
Mr.Liebeler. So there was was a shorter one and a tall one, and the shorter one was rather husky?
Mrs.Odio. He was not as big as this man.
Mr.Liebeler. Not as big as the man in Exhibit No. 237?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the man in Exhibit No. 237 that had a pushed back spot on his head?
Mrs.Odio. It was different. In the middle of his head it was thick, and it looked like he didn't have any hair, and the other side, I didn't notice that.
Mr.Liebeler. This was the taller man; is that right? The one known as Leopoldo?
Mrs.Odio. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. About how much did the taller man weigh, could you guess?
Mrs.Odio. He was thin—about 165 pounds.
Mr.Liebeler. How tall was he, about?
Mrs.Odio. He was about 3½ inches, almost 4 inches taller than I was. Excuse me, he couldn't have. Maybe it was just in the position he was standing. I know that made him look taller, and I had no heels on at the time, so he must have been 6 feet; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And the shorter man was about how tall, would you say? Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. Shorter than Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. About how much, could you guess?
Mrs.Odio. Five feet seven, something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. So he could have been 2 or 3 inches shorter than Oswald?
Mrs.Odio. That's right.
Mr.Liebeler. He weighed about how much, would you say?
Mrs.Odio. 170 pounds, something like that, because he was short, but he was stocky, and he was the one that had the strange complexion.
Mrs.Liebeler. Was it pock marked, would you say?
Mrs.Odio. No; it was like—it wasn't, because he was, oh, it was like he had been in the sun for a long time.
Mr.Liebeler. Let's terminate now and we will resume when we show the film to you tonight.