Mr.Jenner. But you were not in fact 17?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I was 16. She gave my birthday as 17 January 1931. Can we go off the record?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Pic. OK, so I joined the Marine Corps Reserve sometime in October 1948. I was attached to the 2d, 155th Military Howitzer Battalion, U.S. Marine Corps Reserve, Fort Worth, Tex. About that time I started thinking and decided regardless of how my mother felt what happened, I was going to go back to school. So in January 1949 I went back to school and finished my high school education.
Mr.Jenner. To what school did you return?
Mr.Pic. I attended Arlington Heights High School, sir.
Mr.Jenner. In Fort Worth?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you work after school? Did you do anything to supplement your income?
Mr.Pic. I was able to retain my job at Everybody's as a stock boy for about 1 month on this part-time basis but at the end of February they informed me there was no way I could be kept on a part-time basis so I left the job and I then got a job at Burt's shoestore. At Burt's shoestore I was working part time but really making more than full time because I was a stock boy at $15 and all the commissions I could make in their stockroom plus all day Saturday.
Mr.Jenner. Selling shoes?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was your mother doing at this time?
Mr.Pic. I believe at this time, sir, she was working at Sterling's Department Store in Fort Worth after leaving Leonard Bros., before I left Everybody's, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Was Robert working after school?
Mr.Pic. Yes; he was working at the A & P.
Mr.Jenner. Had he been working at the A & P after school from the previous fall?
Mr.Pic. This would be 1949. February 1949, and I am sure he was working at A & P and going to school at that time, some time during that period. He and I were both working and going to school, both.
So, in January 1949, I returned to high school, Arlington Heights High School, Fort Worth, Tex., and was a junior, 11th grade there.
The school session ended and then I attended summer school to make up for what I had lost at Paschal High School, Fort Worth, Tex.
Mr.Jenner. P-a-s-k-a-l?
Mr.Pic. P-a-s-c-h-a-l, sir; is the way they spell it, sir. I still had the job at Burt's. So I attended summer school at Paschal, the summer of 1949. September of1949——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, what did Lee do now? Had he been in school in the fall and winter of 1948 and the winter and spring of 1949?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, vacation is here. What did he do during the summer? You went to school, and you worked at Burt's, what was he doing?
Mr.Pic. Playing around home. And going to this Camp Carter that we ran across in the letter, I guess, I don't remember.
Mr.Jenner. What was Robert doing during the summer?
Mr.Pic. He was working at the A & P, sir; I believe.
Mr.Jenner. Were both of you boys contributing to the support of your mother during this period?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Both of you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Were you continuing to give your mother the $15 a week you had started to give her in the fall of 1948?
Mr.Pic. Well, as far as I am concerned, being that I had no set income, I worked on a guaranteed salary of $15 plus commissions my pay might fluctuate between $20, $35 a week depending on how good a week I had. And I pro-rated this accordingly with her.
Mr.Jenner. And was Robert contributing something as well?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; he was.
Mr.Jenner. Lee didn't work at any time?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever recall Lee up through this time through the summer of 1949 doing any work?
Mr.Pic. No.
Mr.Jenner. He is now 10 years old?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He didn't have any paper routes or do the things that a 10-year-old sometimes does?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. We have now reached the fall of 1949.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; September 1949, I decided—well, let's go back to when I went back to high school.
Mr.Jenner. All right. It is January of 1949.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Lee was at Ridglea.
Mr.Pic. OK. I figured since I was smart enough to decide to go back to high school and my mother tried to talk me out of it I felt it was my own doing and therefore it was my own responsibility, so I decided since that is the way she felt and that was the way I felt I would sign my own report cards and take care of my own notes and everything.
My hostility towards her increased at this time because she pushed me to work and make money, and I knew an education, as much as I could get would be the best thing for me.
Since I took on the responsibility of going back to school I figured I could take care of the rest of it and I wanted nothing from her in this regard. This I did. I signed my own report card, wrote my own notes when I played hooky and missed school.
Mr.Jenner. Signing her name?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; soin——
Mr.Jenner. By the way what kind of a student were you?
Mr.Pic. I was a pretty good student at Chamberlain-Hunt. I had an A-B average at Chamberlain-Hunt, I believe, I did not do too good in the public schools, it was a little bit different, in Chamberlain-Hunt. The classes being a little larger, no individualized concern, just mass teaching. This was a little hard for me to adjust to. I did, I think I had a B or C average at Arlington Heights.
My summer school session, I think I maintained a B-C average. Maybe an A in one subject. So that in the 1949, the summer of 1949, I went to Paschal High School for the summer session, and I decided at this time that I liked Paschal better than Arlington Heights, so I fixed up my own transfer papers and I transferred to Paschal High School in the fall of 1949, which I did enjoy the school better.
Arlington Heights was rather a snobbish school, the rich kids went there and everything, and being I was enrolled in what was called distributive education which means you go to school and work part time you are kind of looked down upon in these type schools. But in Paschal it wasn't that way. The kids weren't snobbish and they weren't so high class, the majority of them.
I didn't do too good that particular year. I was working pretty hard, and I think I flunked one subject. So right after the Christmas holidays 1949, I wascoming towards my 18th birthday and I decided I had just about finished school and I would be graduated, if I passed everything I would, and I decided to join the service, the Coast Guard, and then I processed my paper work, and 3 days prior to graduation I quit school and joined the Coast Guard.
At this time to get in the Coast Guard was rather hard to do. You had to get on a waiting list and when they called you and you didn't show up for it you didn't get in maybe for 6 months or so. I joined the Coast Guard because it was the hardest service to get into. I wasn't interested in the Army or the Marine Corps or the Navy. I took the one that was hardest, the hardest requirement and I got into it.
So, in January, approximately 25 January 1950 I joined the Coast Guard, and left for Cape May, N.J. I did not see Robert, Lee, or my mother until October 1950, 9 months later.
Mr.Jenner. October of 1959?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; 1950. 1950.
Mr.Jenner. Before we get to that or probe that any further, Lee returned to school in the fall of 1949?
Mr.Pic. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. He was still at Ridglea Elementary, then?
Mr.Pic. As far as I know, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was his general attitude and his activities during this period 1948, 1949, through the summer of 1949.
Mr.Pic. Sir; I was 17 years old, I wasn't interested in what an 8–9-year old kids activities were in school. I mean I had girls on my mind and other things like that, you know.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. To be honest with you.
Mr.Jenner. Yes, of course. What was your impression of him at that time?
Mr.Pic. He would get into his trouble, and maybe he would have trouble with a neighbor now and then about walking across their lawn or something. I remember once there was a fight on the bus because of Lee that my brother Robert got beat up because. Robert probably would remember that better than I did.
Mr.Jenner. I don't know whether he mentioned that.
Mr.Pic. I know he got his rear end whipped because of Lee.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
You entered the Coast Guard, and then you didn't see either of your brothers or your mother from the time of your enlistment in January of 1950.
Mr.Pic. That is right.
Mr.Jenner. Until when?
Mr.Pic. October 1950, sir. Early October 1950.
Mr.Jenner. What was that occasion?
Mr.Pic. I went back home on leave, back to Fort Worth on leave, sir.
Mr.Jenner. How long were you home on leave?
Mr.Pic. I think I took 20 days' leave. I think I stayed there 15, 16, something like that, about 2 weeks.
Mr.Jenner. What was the general atmosphere around the house at that time?
Mr.Pic. Well, everybody was glad to see me. I was—well, I come home with a couple of hundred dollars, you know a sailor off the high seas always saves his money and the mother right away wanted to hold it for me and so she conned me into that, and she let me have a few dollars of my own.
Then I spent most of my time looking up old girl friends and things, and visiting Mr. Conway. He and I were always playing chess together.
Mr.Jenner. Mr. Conway, I took his deposition.
Mr.Pic. Yes, very nice man.
Mr.Jenner. He spoke of playing chess with you a great deal.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I had forgotten that. Lived across the street.
Mr.Pic. No, sir; about five doors, four doors to the right of us.
Mr.Jenner. On the same side of the street?
Mr.Pic. Same side.
Mr.Jenner. Hiram Conway.
Mr.Pic. Hiram P. Conway.
Mr.Jenner. You then returned to the service?
Mr.Pic. Yes. I reported back to my ship.
Mr.Jenner. When next did you see your mother or Lee or Robert?
Mr.Pic. August 1952, sir.
Mr.Jenner. When you were back in the fall of 1950, was Lee in school?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr.Jenner. At Ridglea Elementary?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; as far as I know.
Mr.Jenner. Robert was still in school. He is now 16½ years of age?
Mr.Pic. I don't know if he was. Going through those letters there was a time period he was in school, out of school. I don't really remember. I don't think he was in school when I returned on leave.
Mr.Jenner. What was he doing?
Mr.Pic. A & P, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Working. Are you now and were you then aware of the fact that your father contributed to your support during all the years actually until you reached your 18th birthday?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; that is when I decided to make it all on my own since she reminded me of the fact that she wouldn't get no money after I was 18 so that was one thing that contributed to me deciding to leave.
Mr.Jenner. Were you aware during all these years of what the amount of that contribution was?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I wasn't.
Mr.Jenner. But you were aware of the fact that your father was making contributions?
Mr.Pic. I was always told it wasn't enough, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Apart from that you were aware of the fact your father was making contributions?
Mr.Pic. Right. She reminded me the day I became 18 that the payments stopped right then and there.
Mr.Jenner. The fact is that they did.
Mr.Pic. I know. I have no reason to doubt that. What was the amount?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Jenner. When you were in the service did you make any allotment to your mother?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you send her any money at any time while you were in the service?
Mr.Pic. Quite frequently, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Tell us about that. Tell us as best you can the amount.
Mr.Pic. When I was in boot camp from January 1950 to May 1950, the only amount they paid us was $15 every 2 weeks and they held back the rest of our pay until we would graduate and then we would have money to go to our next station with. They do this to recruits. I don't remember if I sent any of this 15 or not, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you send any of the excess when you got it?
Mr.Pic. In those letters I presented you could add them up and see how much I sent in the year 1950. I think I sent $10, $20 at a time when I had it. I was making $80 a month. How much could I send and still be a sailor?
Mr.Jenner. This is not in any sense a criticism, sergeant. All I am doing is seeking some facts.
Mr.Pic. Well, sir, in the letters she refers to 10, 20, 40, sometimes.
Mr.Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48 and 59, and referring to No. 48, at the bottom of which is written Lee, age 2½. Would you identify that, please?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this is Lee Harvey Oswald age 2½ as the picture states written in the handwriting of Mrs. Marguerite Oswald. This picture was taken at Lillian Murret's at Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr.Jenner. That was your aunt's home in Sherwood Forest, New Orleans.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I am sure of that.
Mr.Jenner. I show you John Pic Exhibit No. 49 which—would you identify that?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald, I guess at the same time, with a dog, and I am sure this was taken at Lillian Murret's in Sherwood Forest Drive.
Mr.Jenner. At the same time that John Pic Exhibit No. 48 was taken?
Mr.Pic. Yes; I think so.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I hand you now John Pic Exhibit No. 56, a photograph of a young man. Would you identify that as to time and place if you can, and age, his age, the subject's age?
Mr.Pic. Sir, this is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald which I believe to have been taken when he was in about the second or third grade.
Mr.Jenner. That would be when you were living in Dallas?
Mr.Pic. Fort Worth, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Fort Worth, yes; 7408 Ewing.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I hand you John Pic Exhibits Nos. 57 and 58. I don't know which depicts this young man at the younger age. Take the younger one.
Mr.Pic. Exhibit No. 57, sir, I believe was taken either in late 1951 or early 1952, and it shows a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald approximately how he looked when he came to New York to stay with my wife and I in August of 1952.
Exhibit No. 58, to my best recollection, I think, is a picture sent to me by my mother in approximately 1954, 1955, maybe in 1956, from New Orleans, La. It is a picture of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Jenner. It is after they returned to New Orleans?
Mr.Pic. I am pretty sure that picture was taken in New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. All right. I offer in evidence John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58.
(John Pic Exhibits Nos. 48, 49, 56, 57, and 58 were marked for identification.)
Mr.Jenner. What were the circumstances surrounding and leading up to your mother and Lee coming to New York City in the summer of 1952?
Mr.Pic. I think this was brought on because Robert joined the service sometime previous to that. That would be about right, April 1952, did he join the service. I don't know when. He wasn't there at the time. He was in the service when they came.
Mr.Jenner. Yes. He entered the service as soon as he reached his majority.
Mr.Pic. So that would be April 1952.
Mr.Jenner. Was there an incident respecting, between Robert and your mother and some young lady in which, in whom he was interested just before he entered the service?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You came to know about that?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. By what means?
Mr.Pic. By way of my mother, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right, what was it?
Mr.Pic. Robert had been seeing this girl and she had a club foot. My mother didn't feel that they should be married. He wanted to marry her, and she conned him out of it.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Had you received any letters from Robert on that subject at anytime?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Between the time you were home in October of 1950 and the summer of 1952, had you seen your mother or either of your brothers?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, my question to you was what led up to and what were the circumstances involving or surrounding the visit of your mother and Lee to New York in the summer of 1952.
Mr.Pic. Well, Robert had joined the service in April 1952. It was the summer months, so Lee was not in school, and the trip to New York was feasible, being Lee would have no schooltime lost, it was my impression and also my wife's—meanwhile, I was married, you know, if you are interested in this.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I am.
Mr.Pic. August 18, 1951, I married my wife Margaret Dorothy Fuhrman.
Mr.Jenner. You had met her after you had entered the service and while you were stationed in the New York area?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. At this time, that is the summer of 1952 you were living where?
Mr.Pic. 325 East 92d Street, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any children at that time?
Mr.Pic. In August 1952; yes, sir. I did.
Mr.Jenner. Your first child was born?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; John Edward Pic, Jr.
Mr.Jenner. Was the child born before or after your mother and Lee arrived.
Mr.Pic. Before, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. He was born 14 May 1952, approximately 3 months before they arrived.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Did you invite your mother and Lee to come to New York?
Mr.Pic. The impression that my wife and myself had was they were coming to visit, sir, and we had nothing against this. My mother-in-law, we lived with her at the time, she was visiting her other daughter, Mrs. Emma Parrish, in Norfolk, Va., she was staying with them, so we had the room for them.
Mr.Jenner. But that was your mother's apartment or home?
Mr.Pic. Mother-in-law's.
Mr.Jenner. Was it an apartment or a home?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; it was a box, freight-car type railroad apartment.
Mr.Jenner. One room in back of the other?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. So you were then guests of your mother-in-law at that particular time, that is, living in her home or apartment? And your impression was that your mother and Lee they were just visiting for the summer months or for a period, to visit for the summer months or a period during the summer that was your definite impression.
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right, what happened?
Mr.Pic. At this time I was stationed at U.S. Coast Guard, Port Security Unit, Ellis Island, New York. My status there, I was, I worked once every fourth night, also every fourth weekend so I wasn't home all the time. When they came I took leave so I could spend more time with them.
Mr.Jenner. "I took Lee," would you elaborate on that? What do you mean you took Lee.
Mr.Pic. I am allowed 30 days leave a year and I took off, I took a week or so, I think.
Mr.Jenner. I misunderstood you, I thought you said you took Lee but you said you took leave.
Mr.Pic. Leave.
Mr.Jenner. You took 30 days leave.
Mr.Pic. No, sir; maybe a week or two.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression, you were with them or tried to be with them during that 2-week period.
Mr.Pic. Just a minute, sir. That is where I began my notes. August 1952, my mother and Lee came to New York. They brought with them quite a bit of luggage, and their own TV set. On my way home I had to walk about 8 to 10 blocks to the subway, and Lee walked up to meet me as I was walking home, I told my wife and Lee decided to go up and meet me. We met in the street and I was real glad to see him and he was real glad to see me. We were real good friends. I think a matter of a few days or so I took my leave. Lee and I visited some of the landmarks of New York, the Museum of Natural History, Polk's Hobby Shop on 5th Avenue. I took him on the Staten Island ferry, and several other excursions we made.
Mr.Jenner. Go ahead.
Mr.Pic. Well, sir; it wasn't but a matter of days before I could sense they moved in to stay for good, and this not being my apartment, but my mother-in-law's apartment, my wife kind of frowned upon this a little bit. We didn'treally mind as long as my mother-in-law wasn't there, but she was due back in a matter of a month or so.
During my leave I was under the impression that I may get out of the service in January of 1953, when my enlistment was up, so I went around to several colleges. My mother drove me to these colleges, Fordham University, for one, and Brooklyn, some college in Brooklyn, a couple of other ones I inquired about. I remember one conversation in the car that she reminded me that even though Margy was my wife, she wasn't quite as good as I was, and things like this. She didn't say too many good things about my wife. Well, naturally, I resented this, because I put my wife before my mother any day.
Things were pretty good during the time I was on leave. When I went back to work I would come home my wife would tell me about some little problem they would have. The first problem that I recollect was that there was no support for the grocery bill whatsoever. I don't think I was making more than $150 a month, and they were eating up quite a bit, and I just casually mentioned that and my mother got very much upset about it. So every night I got home and especially the nights I was away and I would come home the next day my wife would have more to tell me about the little arguments. It seems it is my wife's impression that whenever there was an argument that my mother antagonized Lee towards hostility against my wife.
My wife liked Lee. My wife and I had talked several times that it would be nice if Lee would stay with us alone, and we wouldn't mind having him. But we never bothered mentioning this because we knew it was an impossibility.
It got toward schooltime and they had their foothold in the house and he was going to enroll in the neighborhood school, and they planned to stay with us, and I didn't much like this. We couldn't afford to have them, and took him up to enroll in this school.
Mr.Jenner. You did?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; my mother did. I think this is a public school in New York City located on about 89th, 90th Street between Third Avenue and Second Avenue. Lee didn't like this school. I didn't much blame him.
Mr.Ely. When you visited these colleges, had you received credit for finishing high school somehow?
Mr.Pic. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear anything to the effect that the reason why your mother and Lee had come to New York had anything to do with Lee's being given some sort of mental tests?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Was there a period of time just before the enrollment of Lee in the New York Public School, that he attended for about a month a Lutheran denominational school?
Mr.Pic. I don't know, sir. I am not up to that yet.
Mr.Jenner. I see. All right.
Mr.Pic. At about the same time that Lee was enrolled in school that we had the big trouble. It seems that there was an argument about the TV set one day, and—between my wife and my mother. It seems that according to my wife's statement that my mother antagonized Lee, being very hostile toward my wife and he pulled out a pocketknife and said that if she made any attempt to do anything about it that he would use it on her, at the same time Lee struck his mother. This perturbed my wife to no end. So, I came home that night, and the facts were related to me.
Mr.Jenner. When the facts were related to you was your mother present, Lee present, your wife present? If not, who was present?
Mr.Pic. I think my wife told me this in private, sir. I went and asked my mother about it.
Mr.Jenner. Your mother was home?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; she was home.
Mr.Jenner. You went and spoke with your mother?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Was Lee present when you spoke to your mother?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What did you say to your mother and what did she say to you?
Mr.Pic. I asked her about the incident and she attempted to brush it off as not being as serious as my wife put it. That Lee did not pull a pocketknife on her. That they just had a little argument about what TV channel they were going to watch. Being as prejudiced as I am I rather believed my wife rather than my mother.
Mr.Jenner. Did you speak to Lee about the incident?
Mr.Pic. I am getting to that, sir. So I approached Lee on this subject, and about the first couple of words out of my wife he became real hostile toward me, and let me get my notes on it. When this happened it perturbed my wife so much that she told them they are going to leave whether they liked it or not, and I think Lee had the hostility toward my wife right then and there, when they were getting thrown out of the house as they put it.
When I attempted to talk to Lee about this, he ignored me, and I was never able to get to the kid again after that. He didn't care to hear anything I had to say to him. So in a matter of a few days they packed up and left, sir. They moved to the Bronx somewhere.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see them from time to time thereafter?
Mr.Pic. Yes, I can continue if you wish. Unless you want to stop there and ask me something about it.
Mr.Jenner. Well, at this point, yes, I would like to ask you this: You hadn't seen them from October of 1950 until the summer of 1952. Did you notice any change in him, his overall attitude, his relations with his mother, his demeanor, his feelings towards others, his actions toward others?
Mr.Pic. He was definitely the boss.
Mr.Jenner. Now, tell us on what you base that?
Mr.Pic. I mean if he decided to do something, regardless of what my mother said, he did it. She had no authority whatsoever with him. He had no respect for her at all. He and my wife got along very well together when they were alone, when she wasn't present, she and Lee got along very well. She always reminded me of this.
Mr.Jenner. Your wife reminded you of that?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir. Without my mother present she could make it with Lee.
Mr.Jenner. But as soon as your mother came within contact with Lee in your home, then the attitude changed?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Up to this incident when this knife pulling incident occurred, how had your relations with Lee been?
Mr.Pic. Been very good, sir. He and I had gone on all these excursions throughout New York City, and I tried to show him what I could, and spend as much time as I could with him.
Mr.Jenner. You found him to have—he was interested in that sort of thing?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; he loved to go to the Museum of Natural History, anything like that he liked.
Mr.Jenner. Did you speak to him about this relationship he appeared to have with his mother in which he minded her or not as he saw fit and did as he wished?
Mr.Pic. Not until the knife pulling incident.
Mr.Jenner. And you did discuss that subject with him on that occasion?
Mr.Pic. I attempted to, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you attempt to do it thereafter when you saw him from time to time?
Mr.Pic. Sir, he would have nothing to do with me thereafter.
Mr.Jenner. He would not.
Mr.Pic. No, sir; he wouldn't even speak to me.
Mr.Jenner. There was an absolute, complete change then in his relations with you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; that is correct.
Mr.Jenner. It was a marked one?
Mr.Pic. That is correct. I have a couple of more incidents in which I can relate that even more so.
Mr.Jenner. Would you do that?
Mr.Pic. Well, the day they moved out they had done this before I came home from work.
Mr.Jenner. They had moved out before you came home from work?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir. To elaborate, in my notes I have "after I approached Lee about this incident his feelings toward me became hostile and thereafter remained indifferent to me and never again was I able to communicate with him in any way."
Mr.Jenner. Sergeant, if you can, instead of just reading from your notes, read your notes, and if they refresh your recollection and then give in your own words the facts.
Mr.Pic. Well, prior to this particular incident, I would consider us the best of friends as far as older brother-younger brother relationship. My wife always says that he idolized me and thought quite a bit of me.
Mr.Jenner. Up to this time, the relationship between you and your brother Lee, and your brother Robert, all three of you, had been a cordial normal friendly relationship that you expect to exist among brothers?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was your nickname?
Mr.Pic. Pic.
Mr.Jenner. What was your brother Robert's nickname?
Mr.Pic. In Chamberlain-Hunt we referred to him as "Mouse". I think that hung on a while after that.
Mr.Jenner. What nickname did he have before that?
Mr.Pic. None that I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Why did he get that? Was he a quiet boy?
Mr.Pic. He was the littlest one in Chamberlain-Hunt and that was why they called him that.
Mr.Jenner. I see, size.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did Lee ever have a nickname?
Mr.Pic. Not that I know of, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You had the feeling, did you, up until this incident at least that Lee is a young boy, 7 years younger than you, and his brother Robert 5 years older than he, and he looked up to both of you as older brothers?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you had, both you and your brother Robert had love in your heart for your brother Lee?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you felt he reciprocated that?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And the relationship between yourself and your brother Robert was cordial?
Mr.Pic. They always have, and still are, sir.
Mr.Jenner. I may say to you that he so testified. All right.
Mr.Pic. So they moved out in about September 1952, maybe it was late September, early October, somewhere around there, so from about somewhere between September of 1952 and January 1953, my brother Robert came to New York on leave, and we were all invited up to the Bronx.
Mr.Jenner. To visit whom?
Mr.Pic. Sir?
Mr.Jenner. To visit whom?
Mr.Pic. To visit my mother and my brother.
Mr.Jenner. Your brother?
Mr.Pic. That is correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did your brother's wife accompany him?
Mr.Pic. He wasn't married at that time, sir.
Mr.Jenner. He wasn't married?
Mr.Pic. I think this was, his leave was probably in October or November 1952, a matter of a month or two after they had moved out. We visited their apartment in the Bronx.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, where did your brother stay?
Mr.Pic. I think he stayed at the Soldier-Sailor-Airmen Club in New York.
Mr.Jenner. In any event he did not stay with you.
Mr.Pic. No, sir; he may have stayed with my mother also. I don't think so. Maybe for a night or two. We went out, my wife fixed him up with a date with one of her girl friends and we went out together a couple of times. So, we were invited up there for this Sunday dinner. So it was my mother, Lee, Robert, my wife, myself, and my son.
Robert was already there when we arrived. When Lee seen me or my wife he left the room. For dinner he sat in the front room watching TV and didn't join us whatsoever.
Mr.Jenner. He did not join you for dinner?
Mr.Pic. No, sir. Didn't speak to me or my wife.
Mr.Jenner. That put a kind of pall on the visit, did it not?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you—he didn't speak to you. Did you attempt to speak with him?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Jenner. Did he answer you?
Mr.Pic. He shrugged his shoulders a couple of times maybe. He wasn't interested in anything I had to say.
Mr.Jenner. He was definitely hostile to you and to Mrs. Pic?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And that continued throughout the entire visit that evening or was it an evening?
Mr.Pic. It was early afternoon until dusk. We did have an infant son we had to get home.
Mr.Jenner. Was it a Sunday or Saturday?
Mr.Pic. I am sure it was a Sunday. In January1950——
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me, what did you observe with respect to the attitude of Lee toward his mother on that occasion?
Mr.Pic. When he was eating he came and got what he wanted, picked up his plate, went to the living room and watched TV. He decided what he wanted to eat and maybe she helped him. I don't really remember too much about it. I know he did not eat with us.
Mr.Jenner. Did you notice his relation, if any, with Robert?
Mr.Pic. From what I was told later and so forth when I wasn't present him and Robert got along real good.
Mr.Jenner. Excuse me. My question was did you observe on this occasion.
Mr.Pic. There was nothing to observe while I was present, sir. He was completely withdrawn from the crowd.
Mr.Jenner. He withdrew from everybody?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. Personally, I didn't know if he was more hostile towards me or my wife. I still don't know this fact. Maybe it was her, maybe it was me, maybe it was both of us.
In January 1953, I did reenlist in the Coast Guard. I decided to stay in rather than quit, and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. From the time of that October visit of Robert to January 1953, did you see Lee at any time during that period?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I did not. I seen my mother on several occasions. She was working on 42d Street in a Lerner's Dress Shop. I guess I would see her maybe once every 3 weeks to once a month, we dropped downtown, my wife and I, to see her.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say about Lee during that time when you saw her on those occasions?
Mr.Pic. Whenever I seen her, whether I was alone or with my wife, I was usually alone, I went to see her myself, my wife didn't care to see my mother, she would complain about her financial status and when I would ask her about how Lee was doing she would say, "OK" but would not elaborate.
Said "He is OK, but he doesn't have a brother, an older brother to talk to or no one to do anything with."
Mr.Jenner. During this period of time and up to January 1953, in any of thecontacts you had with your mother did you learn or were you advised or did you become aware that there was difficulty with Lee with respect to truancy in attendance at school?
Mr.Pic. I am not quite there, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. The answer is, I take it, that up to this point of January 1953 you were not aware.
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Despite the fact that you had seen your mother from time to time during that period?
Mr.Pic. That is correct, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right, we are at January 1953, when you reenlisted in the Coast Guard.
Mr.Pic. That is right. So in February 1953, my wife and I were again invited to their apartment. This may or may not have been the same apartment we originally visited. I don't remember, sir. I know it was up in the Bronx. I think it may have been a different apartment. Is that right?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. As my wife and I walked in, Lee walked out and my mother informed us that he would probably go to the Bronx Zoo. We had Sunday dinner, and in the course of the conversation my mother informed me that Lee was having a truancy problem and that the school officials had suggested that he might need psychiatric aid to combat his truancy problem.
She informed me that Lee said that he would not see a head shrinker or nut doctor, and she wanted any suggestions or opinions from me as to how to get him to see him, and I told her just take him down there. That is all I could suggest.
Mr.Jenner. What was her response to that?
Mr.Pic. Well, Lee was still the boss. If he didn't want to go see the psychiatrist, he wasn't going.
Mr.Jenner. She had no control over him?
Mr.Pic. No, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you were quite aware of that, were you?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you discuss that with her?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; she discussed it with me. I mean she told me that she couldn't control him and so forth. This I knew.
Mr.Jenner. Did you get the impression from anything she said to you that this truancy or this lack of control problem had been something that had suddenly arisenor——
Mr.Pic. I think it was gradual, and getting worse and worse as time went by.
Mr.Jenner. Sergeant, when you were still home and up to the time you enlisted which was in January 1950, had there been any control problems with respect to Lee? In other words, had you noticed this problem developing, any headstrong attitudes on his part? Cudgel your mind and take yourself back.
Mr.Pic. I would say, sir, that whenever there was a disciplinary problem to be taken care of that it wasn't enforced with Lee by his mother prior to 1950. She always reminded Robert and I that we were the older and we should see to these things that he don't do them and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. What did you and Robert do about it?
Mr.Pic. Not much, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Did you speak to him? You were his older brother. He had the love and affection for you?
Mr.Pic. Well, sir; what was serious to her probably wasn't serious to a 13- and 15-year old kid or 14–16. There was no big troubles he got into that any kid does.
Mr.Jenner. What did you notice up until the time you enlisted in January 1950, of Lee's relations with other children in the neighborhood or his schoolmates. What was your overall impression, first?
Mr.Pic. To my best recollection, sir; there were no other children in the neighborhood of his age group that he played consistently with. I think most of the time he went to play with other children it was a matter of a couple, couple of blocks away or so, with his own age group.
Mr.Jenner. Was he inclined to remain in the house rather than go out and play with other children?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; he was more inclined to stay in the house than go out and play.
Mr.Jenner. Was that noticeable to you?
Mr.Pic. I wasn't there that much, sir; I was working and going to school, both. I wasn't there to observe this.
Mr.Jenner. I see.
Mr.Pic. Except maybe on a weekend occasionally.
Mr.Jenner. But you did notice that when they came to New York in 1952, particularly in the fall of 1952, that by that time he had become quite headstrong?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And that his mother and your mother Marguerite, had pretty well lost any influence or control over him?
Mr.Pic. That is absolutely true, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Now, we brought you up to enlistment in January 1953.
Mr.Pic. On the occasion when we visited them in February 1953.
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Pic. At this same time in February 1953, I received orders to go aboard ship again, so from the time period February 1953, until September 1953, I was in and out of New York at sea.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see either your mother or Lee during that period of time?
Mr.Pic. I did not see Lee after the February visit, sir. I had seen her on several occasions.
Mr.Jenner. Duringthis——
Mr.Pic. Downtown where she worked.
Mr.Jenner. She was still working in Lerner's in the spring and summer of 1953 or had she changed jobs?
Mr.Pic. To my best recollection it was still Lerner's.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall her working at a hosiery shop during this period of time rather than Lerner's?
Mr.Pic. I wouldn't remember, sir.
Mr.Jenner. She might have been but you just don't have a recollection?
Mr.Pic. Wherever she was working at the time, I mean she shifted jobs quite often and it is kind of hard keeping track of them.
Mr.Jenner. Did she have difficulty with her employers, get along with fellow workers at these various shops?
Mr.Pic. Whenever she changed jobs she always gave me a rationalized answer.
Mr.Jenner. Well, that is a conclusion. Tell me what it was.
Mr.Pic. I remember once, it may have been the Lerner shop or it may have been this hosiery shop which you are referring to, that she told me that they let her go because she didn't use an underarm deoderant. That was the reason she gave me, sir. She said she couldn't do nothing about it. She uses it but if it don't work what can she do about it.
Other times whenever she changed jobs it was always because the next job was better.
Mr.Jenner. During the time, on the occasions when you saw her, which was relatively infrequent from January of 1953 to, what is the next date you gave, September of 1953?
Mr.Pic. August-September 1953.
Mr.Jenner. August of 1953, September of 1953, was there any discussion with her about Lee?
Mr.Pic. When I asked about him it was the same old stuff, he is getting along better. She would tell me that he still doesn't have anybody to confide in, things like this.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any further discussion about truancy, any possibility of care for him by a psychiatrist?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; when I asked about this she said everything was working out fine.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. Whenever I would meet her it would be the same old song and dance, like hinting around I should help support her which I couldn't afford to do, sir.
Mr.Jenner. You had a wife and child by that time?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What was your compensation?
Mr.Pic. For what, sir?
Mr.Jenner. In the service at this time.
Mr.Pic. I was petty officer, second class, I guess my base pay was maybe $190, plus extras, quarters allowances, maybe total $300 a month.
Mr.Jenner. Was your wife still residing with your mother-in-law?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And were you contributing to the support of that whole family unit?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. Mother-in-law, wife and child?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I was paying the rent and buying the groceries. In fact, that year I claimed my mother-in-law as a dependent on my income tax, sir.
Mr.Jenner. By the way, you had claimed, did you, at some point in your service your mother as a dependent?
Mr.Pic. In one of her letters she refers to that. I don't recollect that, sir. I think it was prior to my joining the service that she referred to. When I was working full time, maybe the year right after, I don't remember, sir, that incident at all.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Pic. Well, on these visits that I would spend with her downtown, we would eat lunch or something on Saturday. It got old after a while listening to her so I knew I was getting transferred to Virginia in September, 1953, so my wife left in August of 1953 to live with her sister until I was stationed there in September, 1953.
Mr.Jenner. Where did her sister live?
Mr.Pic. Norfolk, Va. And I was to be stationed at Portsmouth, Va., at the Naval hospital there for school purposes.
When I did finally get transferred from the ship to Portsmouth, Va., I did not make known to my mother our whereabouts or our address.
Mr.Jenner. Why not?
Mr.Pic. Like I said, sir; it was getting kind of old. The only time I had seen her would be downtown and she didn't have much to say to me and I didn't have too much to say to her.
Mr.Jenner. During this period of time there came about a substantially complete rupture then between yourself and your mother?
Mr.Pic. To a certain degree.
Mr.Jenner. Did you see your brother at any time thereafter?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Jenner. Was there an occasion in Thanksgiving 1962 when you saw him?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; I can get to that. There are things happened prior to that.
Mr.Jenner. You did seehim——
Mr.Pic. No, sir; I did not see him. I seen my mother.
Mr.Jenner. I see. All right; go ahead.
Mr.Pic. I returned from Portsmouth, Va., in April 1954, sir; and took up residency at 80 St. Marks Place, Staten Island, N.Y. We returned really to 325 East 92d Street, stayed there a matter of a couple of days until I found us a place to live in Staten Island and then my wife and I moved over to Staten Island leaving my mother-in-law in the apartment, being I felt because my wife had six brothers and sisters that they could worry about her. I didn't see that it was my responsibility much longer. My wife was the youngest child, and we lived there almost 2 years.
I was then assigned to the U.S. Coast Guard CutterHalfmoon, which is a weather vessel, and this is where I am in and out for 6-, 7-week periods at atime. It was during this time that she wrote me at the base, my mother, and informed me that they were back in New Orleans, and you have the letters referring to this, sir.
It was either sometime in the fall of 1955 or the winter of 1956 that my mother called me from New Orleans.
Mr.Jenner. By telephone?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; and said she wanted to visit again.
Mr.Jenner. You were then in New York?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; well, Lee was still with her, and my wife frowned upon this, and being that we did have a one-bedroom apartment, and we did have two children at this time there was no way at all we could accommodate two of them. She was very upset about this that I wouldn't have her up. There was nothing I could do about it, though. I knew if she came up they were coming up to stay, and I didn't want a repeat of what we had. So in February 1956, I joined the Air Force and was stationed at Mitchel Air Force Base in New York which is about 30, 40 miles east of New York City. In October 1956, Lee joined the Marine Corps.
Mr.Jenner. How did that come to your attention?
Mr.Pic. My mother informed me of this fact.
Mr.Jenner. By letter?
Mr.Pic. We were writing again. So, it was just a matter of corresponding by mail up until the Christmas holidays of 1957 when my mother—let me make sure that date is right—I am fairly certain, sir; that it was the Christmas holidays of 1957 rather than the Christmas holidays of 1958—that she visited us.
Mr.Jenner. She did come to New York?
Mr.Pic. Right. She come to—we had moved to 104 Avenue C East Meadow, on Long Island. I had two children but we had a 3-bedroom apartment which was part of base housing and we could accommodate her here.
She came from Fort Worth when she arrived. Somehow or another between New Orleans and this visit she and Lee had gone back to Fort Worth.
Mr.Jenner. You were aware of the fact she had returned to Fort Worth?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. And you learned that through correspondence?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. With her.
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir; her position at that time, so she told us, was that she was a greeter for the city of Fort Worth. She would welcome people to town and things like this.
Mr.Jenner. I think she was employed for a while in an organization called Welcome Wagon. That is a national organization.
Mr.Pic. When she was employed is when she visited us. I think this was Christmas of 1957, is that right?
Mr.Ely. I think that would be the same thing probably, Welcome Wagon greets people.
Mr.Pic. Is this 1957 when she had that job?
Mr.Jenner. I am not sure of the date but it is true that during that, when she returned to Fort Worth sometime along there she did have a position of that character.
Mr.Pic. She stayed over the Christmas holidays, left approximately the 10th of January, sometime.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have conversations here about Lee during that time?
Mr.Pic. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. What did she say?
Mr.Pic. Lee was in the Marine Corps, Lee was very happy to be in the Marine Corps, Lee was proud to be in the Marine Corps. Lee loved the Marine Corps. He just liked it.
Mr.Jenner. I see. What had occurred to Robert in the meantime? This is December of 1957. Was he still in the service?
Mr.Pic. No, sir; he was not, I don't believe. I think he had gotten discharged and gotten married, was residing in Fort Worth with his wife.
Mr.Jenner. He was discharged in the spring of 1956–1957, rather; and stayed at Exchange Alley for a short while.
Mr.Pic. I don't know that.
Mr.Jenner. Then went to Fort Worth and your mother and your brother Lee followed and your brother Lee attended high school for about 6 or 7 weeks in the fall of 1957 in Fort Worth, Arlington Heights High School, and enlisted in October 1957, in the Marines.
Mr.Pic. Lee enlisted in 1956, I believe.
Mr.Ely. 1956.
Mr.Jenner. 1956 was it. Then your brother Robert was discharged, mustered out in 1956?
Mr.Pic. That sounds about right. And stayed in Exchange Alley a short time, didn't like it, went on to Fort Worth.
After she left in January of 1958 we continued to communicate by mail and every now and then a phone call.