Mr.Jenner. Do you think he was emotionally unstable?
Mr.Thornley. I think so.
Mr.Jenner. That is an opinion you gathered from your association with him in the Marines.
Mr.Thornley. Yes. Primarily once again from that last experience, that short exchange and just the complete unexpectedness of it. And then, of course, after that was when I learned some of the other things, such as the pouring the beer over the staff sergeant's head. These things, I don't know when I learned them, but I do definitely know I learned them afterwards becauseI——
Mr.Jenner. You mean you learned of that incident after you left the base at El Toro?
Mr.Thornley. I believe I learned it over in Japan, as a matter of fact, I believe soon after I got there somebody mentioned it in some connection or another, and that was because I remember, yes, I am sure it happened over there because I remember, then I said, "Oh, he was in this unit? He was in here in MACS 1?" and somebody said, "Yes." And that was another connection in my mind as far as Oswald was concerned.
And then when the defection occurred, I therefore felt that I—I had been thinking about writing a book on the Marine Corps. I had not decided exactly what it was going to concern, what it was going to be about as far as plot or theme went, the background would be the Marine Corps in Japan, because that was the first big, at that time to me, dramatic experience of my life suitable for a book, worth telling about.
So, when the defection occurred on that same day, I thought, "Well, this is it. I am in a perfect position to tell how this took place, why this happened." I was not so interested in explaining Lee Harvey Oswald to myself or anybody else, as I was in explaining that particular phenomenon of disillusionment with the United States after serving in the Marine Corps overseas in a peacetime capacity; thus the title: The Idle Warriors.
Since Oswald inspired the book, I did base a good deal of it as a matter of convenience on his personality and on his ideas.
Mr.Jenner. You said you had the impression as you sat there in Japan that here was a man whom you felt wanted to be on the winning side.
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. What impression did you have as to why? Did you, for example, have the impression that he felt that his life had been such that he had been deprived of the opportunity to be on a good side?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. That he conceived to be the leading side?
Mr.Thornley. No. I had a definite impression of why.
Mr.Jenner. All right.
Mr.Thornley. I think it is a mistake that many people make, and I think it is a mistake he shared, and that is: he looked upon, not only Marxists make this mistake, but he looked upon history as God. He looked upon the eyes of future people as some kind of tribunal, and he wanted to be on the winning side so that 10,000 years from now people would look in the history books and say, "Well, this man was ahead of his time. This man was"—he wanted to be looked back upon with honor by future generations. It was, I think, a substitute, in his case, for traditional religion.
The eyes of the future became what to another man would be the eyes of God, or perhaps to yet another man the eyes of his own conscience.
Mr.Jenner. So it wasn't in the prosaic sense of merely wanting to be on the "winning side."
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. When thingsdeveloped——
Mr.Thornley. No; I don't think he expected things to develop within his lifetime. I am sure that he didn't. He just wanted to be on the winning side for all eternity.
Mr.Jenner. You had the impression that that was in terms of selflessness? That he thought also in terms that Lee Harvey Oswald would be associated with this forward thinking?
Mr.Thornley. Right. He was concerned with his image in history and I do think that is why he chose once again, once again why he chose the particular method he chose and did it in the way he did. It got him in the newspapers. It did broadcast his name out. I think he probably expected the Russians to accept him on a much higher—in a much higher capacity than they did.
I think he expected them to, in his own dreams, to invite him to take a position in their government, possibly as a technician, and I think he then felt that he could go out into the world, into the Communist world and distinguish himself and work his way up into the party, perhaps. He wasdefinitely——
Mr.Jenner. Did it have to be the Communist world or could it be any world that he saw projected into the future?
Mr.Thornley. Definitely.
Mr.Jenner. And as you put it this, in your opinion, had become a religion with him.
Mr.Thornley. Much more than he himself realized even though he called it his religion.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the impression there was a personal selflessness, that is a—I will put it in terms of disregard or rather this way—that as far as his physical person was concerned, he wasn't concerned about life in the sense that he wanted to continue to maintain life in his body?
Mr.Thornley. No; I think he wanted physical happiness. I think this is why he didn't do something like just join the Communist Party. I believe he felt that was dangerous. I think he wanted to live comfortably. But I think if it came to a choice between the two, or to put it this way, more relevant to events that developed later, I think if it became to his mind impossible for him to have this degree of physical comfort that he expected or sought, I think he would then throw himself entirely on the other thing he also wanted, which was the image in history.
I don't think that—I think he wanted both if he could have them. If he didn't, he wanted to die with the knowledge that, or with the idea that he was somebody.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the impression at any time that he, in turn, embraced a realization that he was lacking in ability to accomplish the former, that is, personal comfort and status, that is that he felt that there was a lack of ability, capacity, training, education on his part?
Mr.Thornley. When I knew him, I don't think he had the vaguest thought in that direction. I do definitely, of course, based solely upon what I have read in the newspapers, think he came to that moment, after returning to the United States from the Soviet Union. I think he was getting panicky.
Mr.Jenner. In our discussion you can see it is important to me to obtain your thinking, uninfluenced to the extent you can do it by subsequent events. Of course complete lack of influence is not possible, but I am seeking your views as to your state of mind prior to November 22.
Mr.Thornley. All right. I would say that prior to November 22, I felt that he had gradually become disillusioned with the United States for many reasons, at the bottom was also his conviction, well, in fact, his disillusionment with the United States in the Far East probably contributed to some extent to his conviction that the Communists would eventually prevail, the Communist culture would eventually prevail in the world, and I then had the feeling that he certainly—I thought he would probably stay in Russia, for example, forever.
I didn't know what he was doing there. I realized from what I read at that time that he was not—he did not have Russian citizenship. He was staying there as an immigrant. I expected him probably to adjust to Russian life and that would be the last that the Western World would ever hear of Oswald.
Everything Oswald has ever done has surprised me.
Mr.Jenner. Please elaborate on that.
Mr.Thornley. When I knew him and since I knew him, when I knew him I was surprised when he was offended at my statement about the coming of the revolution that Saturday morning. I was surprised when I read in the papers overseas that he had gone to the Soviet Union. I was surprised when he came back. And I was entirely caught unaware when it turned out that he was involved in the assassination, to such an extent that for some time afterwards, I thought he was innocent.
Mr.Jenner. Why were you surprised when he came back and tell us before you do that where were you and how did you find out about it.
Mr.Thornley. I was in New Orleans. My parents sent me an article from the Los Angeles Times about it. The reason I was surprised at his coming back was as I said before, I just expected that would be the last I would hear of him. I fully expected him to adjust to Soviet life. I thought what he—at that time I thought what he probably lacked in the Marine Corps was any sympathy for the overall purpose of the Marine Corps. Whereas he certainly had sympathy for the overall purpose of the Soviet Government, so I don't think he would mind the restrictions imposed on him, as he resented them in the Marine Corps.
I did not expect him to become disillusioned, certainly, with the Soviet Union. I am not, of course, sure that he did become disillusioned with it. It just seemed unlike him to come back to this country when he said he would never live in either as a capitalist or as a worker.
Mr.Jenner. When did he say that?
Mr.Thornley. He said that at a press conference in Moscow according to the papers.
Mr.Jenner. This was something you read in the Stars and Stripes?
Mr.Thornley. I don't know whether I read this in the Stars and Stripes or whether I read this—I certainly read it when he came back from Russia, I remember. It was in the article from the Times my folks sent me. Said when he had left for the Soviet Union he had said such-and-such, quote.
Mr.Jenner. You said you did not expect him to become disillusioned with Soviet Russia. Was it your impression at any time, take the several stages, that he had a conviction with respect to any form of political philosophy or government?
Mr.Thornley. Well, he did definitely always before and after have a Marxist bias. From anything that has come to me, that has never—I have never reason—never had reason to doubt that.
Mr.Jenner. That, you think, was a conviction?
Mr.Thornley. I think that was an irrevocable conviction, you might say.
Mr.Jenner. You do not think it was not merely a theoretical concept which he used for argumentation?
Mr.Thornley. Let me put it this way. I think you could sit down and argue with him for a number of years in a great marathon argument and have piles of facts and I don't think you could have changed his mind on that unless you knew why he believed it in the first place. I certainly don't. I don't think with any kind of formal argument you could have shaken that conviction. And that is why I say irrevocable. It was just—never getting back to looking at things from any other way once he had become a Marxist, whenever that was.
Mr.Jenner. Was he able to articulate distinctions between Marxism, communism, capitalism, democracy?
Mr.Thornley. At the time I knew him and argued with him he didn't bother to articulate distinctions between Marxism and communism. At a latter time I understand he did.
Mr.Jenner. He attempted to.
Mr.Thornley. At the time I knew his communism was the modern, living vicar of Marxism, period.
Mr.Jenner. Were you in New Orleans when he was arrested for distributing Fair Play for Cuba Committee leaflets?
Mr.Thornley. I arrived in New Orleans in the early part of September. If I was in NewOrleans——
Mr.Jenner. 1963?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. This occurred in August of 1963.
Mr.Thornley. Then I wasn't there; no.
Mr.Jenner. Did you hear about it?
Mr.Thornley. No; I didn't. I didn't hear about it until after the assassination.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear any of those tapes?
Mr.Thornley. I heard part of one of them after the assassination, once again.
Mr.Jenner. Did that part include his effort to distinguish between Marxism and democracy in response to a question put to him by either Mr. Stuckey or one of the other participants?
Mr.Thornley. That is exactly what he was talking about at the time. I happened to be standing in the television station in New Orleans and he was saying, and I just got a snatch of it, I was passing through the room or something; and he was saying, "Well, there are many Marxist countries in the world today."
Mr.Jenner. This was by way of his answering a question as to what was the distinction between Marxism and communism?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; he was saying there are many non-Communist Marxist countries in the world today and he was definitely making a distinction between Marxism and communism.
Mr.Jenner. But all he did was to cite the countries. He didn't attempt to make the distinction.
Mr.Thornley. It was only a snatch of it.
Mr.Jenner. That was a fair representation of his utterances during those two radio broadcasts and one television broadcast. You mentioned also that you had a feeling on his part that he was laboring under a persecution complex?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was not necessarily based alone on the incident you relate that occurred on that Saturday morning? Were there other incidents?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; there were many comments on his part about the walls having ears, about—I think he felt the Marine Corps kept a pretty close watch on him because of his "subversive" activities and, for that reason in fact, I think he sought to keep himself convinced that he was being watched and being pushed a little harder than anyone else.
I don't think he was consciously, perhaps not consciously, aware of the fact that he went out of his way to get into trouble. I think it was kind of necessary to him to believe that he was being picked on. It wasn't anything extreme. I wouldn't go so far as to call it, call him a paranoid, but a definite tendency there was in that direction, I think.
Mr.Jenner. Would you put it in terms that he had the feeling that he was being unjustifiably put upon?
Mr.Thornley. Oh, always; yes. He was, in fact, you almost got the feeling that he was—this was happening because of his defense. I mean he was always speaking of the injustices which had been perpetrated against him.
Mr.Jenner. Of his injustices as to him personally, different from the treatment of others about him?
Mr.Thornley. To him personally; yes. Well, and it was the fact that he had lost his clearance, and had gone out of his way to get into some degree of trouble that went on to support this. For example, we would stand at muster in the morning, and Sergeant Spar would call the roll and he would say "Oswald" and Oswald would step out of the ranks and he would send him off to mow the lawn or something.
Oswald did get special treatment. As I say, he had brought it on himself but he made the most of it, too, as far as using it as a means of getting or attempting to get sympathy.
Mr.Jenner. Well, what was the sergeant's name?
Mr.Thornley. Sergeant Spar.
Mr.Jenner. Spar. In using his name, I don't wish to, I am not suggestinganything personal as to Sergeant Spar, but I am going to use him as a faceless Marine sergeant.
Mr.Thornley. And a very good one.
Mr.Jenner. You marines, at least some of you, I assume, as had GI's and others, you buttered up sergeants, too, didn't you, in order to avoid being assigned too often to disagreeable tasks?
Mr.Thornley. No; you didn't have to. So long as you kept in line and obeyed orders, you didn't have to—you weren't assigned any disagreeable task in the kind of outfit I was in because there weren't that many. When there was a disagreeable task to be done, it was assigned to somebody who had stepped out of line and there were always enough people who had stepped out of line and it was no problem to find them. In fact, the problem was to find enough disagreeable tasks to go around. The only exception to this would be overseas; a typhoon would hit sometimes and then everybody would have to go out and we would have to all, much to our dismay, wade around at 2 o'clock in the morning and tear down tents and so on and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. That was a thing that was common to all of you.
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. It was not a disagreeable task in the sense we are talking about.
Mr.Thornley. Right; and that was never necessary to have to butter up that I can ever think of to a superior of any kind in order to get exempted from anything.
Mr.Jenner. Well, do you think Oswald was aware that all he had to be was more tractable to the customs and practices of the Marine Corps in which he was then living and he would not be assigned disagreeable tasks more often than others?
Mr.Thornley. Well, that is hard to say. I don't know whether he was aware of that or not. I am not sure whether he permitted himself to be aware of it. Maybe he was aware of it and maybe he couldn't help. He had compulsions to do these things. Maybe he thought it was worth it and maybe he didn't feel that he was being treated unjustly at all. Maybe he just wanted everybody to think he felt he was being treated unjustly, if you follow me.
Mr.Jenner. I do.
Mr.Thornley. It could have been any of these things. This—I think it would take a good psychiatrist to find out which.
Mr.Jenner. You also used the expression that he strove to maintain the status or milieu in which he had brought himself.
Mr.Thornley. Yes; I think this was possibly so. I think perhaps the feeling of being persecuted was necessary to his self-esteem. This is, I understand, a common thing, and it certainly fits in with everything else I know about him.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have that impression that you have just expressed at the time that you were associated with him in the Marines?
Mr.Thornley. At the time I was associated with him, I didn't have that impression because I was too busy wondering just what it was. I used to—I would see him doing something stupid, maybe a wisecrack to an officer, for example, and I would say, "Well, doesn't the idiot know that if he does that he is going to have to do this" and yet he would resent his punishment.
Mr.Jenner. What would he do afterward?
Mr.Thornley. As if it had been thrust upon him for no reason whatsoever, out of the blue.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have a feeling that he was impulsive in that respect, in the sense that sometimes he did things?
Mr.Thornley. He was definitely impulsive.
Mr.Jenner. That he had no control?
Mr.Thornley. Well, I don't know whether he had no control or whether he would just do things without thinking. I think maybe he just let, relaxed his controls once in a while, and why, I don't know.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the feeling he was impulsive?
Mr.Thornley. Oh, definitely.
Mr.Jenner. He acted on the spur of the moment?
Mr.Thornley. He was spontaneous, very much so. This was—I had this impression the whole time I knew him.
Mr.Jenner. You did have the impression and I think you have mentioned it several times, that he had an exaggerated, either mild or otherwise, self-esteem.
Mr.Thornley. No; I didn't mention that that I recall. I did say that I think maintaining the persecution complex was necessary for his self-esteem and he was concerned very much with his image in history but I don't think in the sense of being secure about his self-esteem; I don't think he was either conceited, for example, egotistical, or just plain confident. I don't think—I don't have any reason to believe that he in his own eyes, had any reason to be proud of himself beyond the average, at most.
Mr.Jenner. I wasn't thinking of self-esteem in that sense and I didn't gather from your remark that you were thinking of it in that sense either, but rather in the sense of self-esteem in his own eyes, not in the sense of accomplishment or egoism.
Mr.Thornley. Now, I don't know. Self-esteem in one's own eyes, it seems to me, would have to be justified by some means. Some people justify it by means of their attraction to the opposite sex or by means of their standing in some country club. I think Oswald justified it by means of his recalcitrance, kind of a reverse self-esteem.
By means of his unwillingness to do what he was ordered, for example.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have the feeling that he sought the esteem of others, not necessarily his officers, but the esteem of somebody or some group or some persons about him and in hislife——
Mr.Thornley. I think he wanted this very much but I don't think he knew how to go about getting it. He wanted it, and yet he certainly didn't—I think he would have felt he was cheating himself if he had offered them anything in exchange for it. He wanted it but he wanted it to come to him for no reason. He didn't want to have to earn it. I got that impression. That is a very mild impression.
Mr.Jenner. We are dealing in a very delicate field here and I am pressing you very severely.
Mr.Thornley. These are sometimes very gray, thin lines we have to distinguish between.
Mr.Jenner. We are probing for motivation. Did you ever discuss with him the matter of education?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. His own; or education in the abstract; or the need for education in order to attain accomplishments; or any regard to whether his status in life, his personal comfort, his personal peace, could be advanced by further education?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have the feeling of any discomfort on his part or inferiority because of his limited education?
Mr.Thornley. No. First of all, in the Marine Corps there is a prevalence of this kind of feeling among many of the enlisted men, and Oswald was exempt from it.
Mr.Jenner. What do you mean "exempt from it"?
Mr.Thornley. Well, he didn't, for example, have the usual bitterness toward somebody who read, well, just merely because he did read.
Mr.Jenner. He may have felt superior because he did read, did you have that feeling?
Mr.Thornley. Oh, yes.
Mr.Jenner. That was a definite feeling?
Mr.Thornley. I wouldn't say anything in my experience with him caused me to particularly notice that he felt superior because he did read. But except, yes, there is one time a friend of his, I don't know who it was, I haven't been able to recall the name at present, one morning looked over at our commanding officer who was walking by, Colonel Poindexter, an air ace inKorea——
Mr.Jenner. A what?
Mr.Thornley. An ace pilot in Korea, and made the comment, "There goes a mental midgit" which drew glee from Oswald, as I remember. But aside from that one particular incident—well, in any case, when he was dealing with military superiors he always felt superior to them. You got that impression. Butdealing with the other marines who maybe did have an education or did not have an education, I didn't get any, ever get any impression one way or the other that he had a tendency to react to this.
Mr.Jenner. As between yourself and him, your association, what was your feeling? Did he regard himself as compatible with you and you with him?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; definitely. I didn't get any idea that he was—I thought his education was about the same as my own which certainly isn't spectacular by any means. I thought he might have had a year of college. I knew he had—I figured he had graduated from high school. It never occurred to me to think any more about it. I did, as I mentioned before, notice once in a while that he had gaps in his knowledge, but many people do, in fact all of us do, I am sure, in some fields.
But in Oswald's case they perhaps had an unusual pattern to them or something that made me notice them, perhaps. Perhaps he was better read, for example, on Marxist economics than any other school of economics, things like this. But that was the extent of it.
Mr.Jenner. Was there in your kicking around with him in your discussions—was there ever any discussion of your past, of his past, his life?
Mr.Thornley. None whatsoever. This I am almost certain of. I had no idea, for example, that he was from Texas or where he was from. At that time I don't recall him having a Texas accent, either. I had no idea that his father had died when he was young. I had no idea about his family, anything along this line and I don't think I ever discussed my past with him.
Mr.Jenner. Was any mention ever made of his attendance at or even the name of the Albert Schweitzer College?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. No discussions about any plans of his or possibility of his seeking further education of any kind or character when he was mustered out of the Marines?
Mr.Thornley. None whatsoever. For one thing we were not close enough friends to have any personal interests in each other. I looked upon him as somebody to argue with, another atheist—therefore, without the problem of religion between us—and to argue philosophy and politics about, and I think he looked upon me in about the same light.
Mr.Jenner. What was your dexterity with Marine weapons?
Mr.Thornley. Mine?
Mr.Jenner. Yes.
Mr.Thornley. I was a sharpshooter.
Mr.Jenner. What was his?
Mr.Thornley. I believe—well, at that time I didn't know.
Mr.Jenner. You didn't know. I want your viewpoint as of that time. While you were based at El Toro, did the unit engage with any regularity in rifle practice?
Mr.Thornley. None whatsoever. At that time, the whole time I was there, we did not engage in rifle practice.
Mr.Jenner. As a matter of curiosity on my own part, why was that?
Mr.Thornley. Well, in the Marine Corps you are required once a year to go to the rifle range and qualify. I was not there an entire year. Point No. 2, this was the Marine air wing which has much less of an emphasis on, in general, on rifle practice because it is not going to be utilized in battle, and a much stronger emphasis, in the case of the outfit we were in, on our particular military occupational specialty.
Mr.Jenner. Which was?
Mr.Thornley. 6749 Aviation Electronic Operator.
Mr.Jenner. Was this true when you reached Japan?
Mr.Thornley. More so. When I reached Japan, however, we did go to the rifle range one time shortly after I got there, and qualify. I recall at that time that in Japan we weren't even having rifle inspections. There you could put your rifle away in your locker and forget about it, and take it out every couple of months and make sure it hadn't corroded away, and put it back again.
Mr.Jenner. But you didn't even have rifle inspection?
Mr.Thornley. Once in a while we would have one, but not with any frequency whatsoever.
Mr.Jenner. Were you forewarned so that you could clean your rifle?
Mr.Thornley. No; usually you were caught unawares, which was why you kept it clean in the locker.
Mr.Jenner. I see. What are the grades of marksmanship?
Mr.Thornley. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert.
Mr.Jenner. Marksman, sharpshooter, and expert. Therefore, I gather from that that marksman was the basic grade.
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. A grade that every marine was expected to, and had to, attain that grade?
Mr.Thornley. Not had to attain, some didn't, and there was no particular penalty involved, except maybe something a little extracurricular when you were in boot camp. Otherwise, you didn't wear a marksman's medal is all. You didn't have any qualification in the infantry; of course, it would be looked down upon in the case of promotion or something like that. In the air wing it had much slighter significance than that. Maybe if you were being considered for a meritorious promotion and you hadn't qualified you wouldn't get it, but day to day it had no significance.
Mr.Jenner. Were the standards applied in the air wing with respect to qualifications for these three classes as severe or as high as the standards applied, let us say, in the Marine infantry?
Mr.Thornley. Exactly the same; yes.
Mr.Jenner. Exactly the same. Would you please state for me your concept of the degree of marksmanship for (a) marksman, (b) sharpshooter, (c) expert?
Mr.Thornley. Well, a marksman is an average shooter. A man, I think, could pick up a rifle and with a little commonsense and a minimum knowledge of the basics of marksmanship qualify as a marksman. When a man doesn't qualify as a marksman it is usually either because he is nervous on the day of qualification or he is gun shy or some outside influence confuses him; maybe he gets his windage off, something like this.
Sharpshooter is just a little above average. It ranges over about—a pretty wide field. But it is a man who—a sharpshooter would be a man, the average man, with a good, maybe a week of training on how to use a rifle, and some practice.
Whereas an expert is the kind of man I would hate to have on the other side in a war. He is accurate with his rifle up to and including 500 yards in a number of different positions. Hits the bull's-eye or close to the bull's-eye an overwhelming percentage of the time.
Mr.Jenner. Is that the category in which we would place that to which we refer generally as the sniper?
Mr.Thornley. Yes. Well, any man might be assigned as a sniper, I imagine. But an expert rifleman would perform much better.
Mr.Jenner. Maybe be a superior sniper.
Mr.Thornley. Yes. Definitely.
Mr.Jenner. And to attain the position of expert marksman must there be considerable practice and use of the weapon or is it more of natural ability?
Mr.Thornley. Now, you enter in once again to natural ability, just as not qualifying might be caused by a lack of natural ability of some kind. An expert rifleman probably would have a much calmer nervous system or, you might say, a much greater degree of control.
I would imagine training can make up for this. I know a couple of times I just missed expert by a few points. It seemed that I couldn't make expert. It seemed to me there was just something I didn't have in order to make expert. It was very frustrating.
Mr.Jenner. You tried?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; it takes a great degree of control, primarily. Of course, the other things like good eyesight and so on and so forth.
Mr.Jenner. Oh, yes.
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever discuss with Oswald his degree of proficiency in the use of the rifle?
Mr.Thornley. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Did you have any impressions that you gathered in that respect while you were with him at El Toro?
Mr.Thornley. None whatsoever. Had somebody asked me to guess about Oswald, I would have said, well, he probably didn't qualify, just because that was the type of guy he was, but that is all.
Mr.Jenner. You would never have expected him to have been a sharpshooter, for example?
Mr.Thornley. It wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he was and it wouldn't have greatly surprised me if he wasn't. This is something very difficult: to look at a man and tell, at least it is very difficult for me. I have seen some drill instructors who could do it. But to tell whether he is going to be an expert or a sharpshooter, marksman, I am not qualified.
Mr.Jenner. While you were stationed with him at El Toro, did you ever go off base with him?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever have any discussion of dates?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. His attitude toward women?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. Sex?
Mr.Thornley. None whatsoever.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any scuttlebutt around the camp in that regard with respect to him?
Mr.Thornley. Not to the best of my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. Sex habits, propensities?
Mr.Thornley. No; you stand a risk in the Marine Corps, if you are at all quiet and tend to be introverted, of being suspected of being homosexual, but to the best of my knowledge there were never any comments made of this nature.
Mr.Jenner. Do you recall some other readings of his in addition to "1984"?
Mr.Thornley. I do recall having mentioned Dostoievsky to him and I know he had read something and I think it was "Crime and Punishment" but I am not sure. It was something I had not read by Dostoievsky when I had read about, I guess at that time, about three or four books.
Mr.Jenner. It is a great book.
Mr.Thornley. Someday I am going to get around to it.
Mr.Jenner. Have you not read it yet? It is a really great book.
Mr.Thornley. No; and I don't recall him mentioning any other books offhand. I don't—I can't think of a thing besides "1984" and some book by Dostoievsky.
Mr.Jenner. While you were based at El Toro did he engage, did you notice, in any officer baiting on his part with respect, in particular, to such matters as foreign affairs?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; not on foreign affairs, no, but the same officer, Lieutenant Donovan, spoke of in a foreign affairs lecture in the newspapers, I do remember him baiting him on a couple of occasions.
Mr.Jenner. Oswald attempting to bait Lieutenant Donovan?
Mr.Thornley. I don't remember what it was. I know, I believe Lieutenant Donovan was also a lieutenant which I had had a couple of run-ins with if I remember correctly.
If not, it was Lieutenant Delprado. It was one of the two of them. Mine were completely accidental and I went to great length to keep away from one of them because it seemed like any time I was around him I happened to do something to irritate him. But Oswald, I don't recall exactly what he said, but he a couple or three times went out of his way to say something to one of these lieutenants that would cause them to be irritated and in this you can't really say that he was exceptional. It happened many times. In Oswald's case though, it wasexceptionally——
Mr.Jenner. You mean it happened many times with respect to other noncoms in the Marines with respect to these officers?
Mr.Thornley. Right; but in Oswald's case it seemed a little more deliberate.Some guys would get mad and they would say something, or sometimes they would do something by accident, and they would get themselves involved and then they would decide, "Well, what the hell," and push it all away. Oswald it seemed didn't have to have any reason. He just told an officer to get lost.
Mr.Jenner. He baited an officer for the pleasure of it?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; I might mention that this was one means by which he won the admiration of others in the outfit in that the junior officers especially are usually disliked, or were in that outfit, and this made him on such occasions as he engaged with an officer in some kind of officer baiting, this won the respect, for at least a few minutes, of the men—who would kind of laugh about it, and chuckle over it and tell others about it. Perhaps this is why he did it.
Mr.Jenner. You mentioned some slovenliness on his part; what about his quarters, his barracks; did you have occasion to observe them?
Mr.Thornley. I don't think I was ever in his barracks. I do recall having been told that he had Russian books and that is all I—that is the only connection I can make now in my mind with his quarters. I don't think I ever saw them.
Mr.Jenner. You already have given us something of his view of the U.S. Marine Corps. Would you give us a summary of that? Give us your impression of his views with respect to the U.S. Marine Corps.
Mr.Thornley. Well, definitely the Marine Corps was not what he had expected it to be when he joined. Also he felt that the officers and the staff NCO's at the Marine Corps were incompetent to give him orders.
Mr.Jenner. Incompetent in what sense, they were below him intellectually?
Mr.Thornley. They were below him intellectually—and for various other reasons in each case, too. Maybe this officer was ignorant, as was brought out about foreign affairs, in Oswald's mind, knew less than Oswald did about it. I don't hold with the stand that Oswald would study up on foreign affairs simply in order to bait the officer. I think it just happened to be that Oswald would see that the officer was basing his foreign affairs maybe on Time magazine when Oswald had done a little more reading and I think he resented this Time magazine approach to foreign affairs.
Mr.Jenner. How did these discussions arise, Mr. Thornley, the discussion of foreign affairs by officers?
Mr.Thornley. Well, the officers, every so many weeks—this is mentioned somewhere in this pile of papers—every so many weeks a lieutenant is appointed to give a foreign affairs lecture or a current affairs lecture, pardon me, to the troops, at which time he explains the world situation in a half hour. I remember having one second lieutenant telling us about Dalai Lama or it was a first lieutenant and I forget what he told us, but it was something completely absurd. I think at that time the Dalai Lama had just disappeared or something, and one would get the impression, I think, that he thought the Dalai Lama was a leader in Pakistan or something.
Mr.Jenner. That is the impression the lieutenant tried to convey?
Mr.Thornley. Well, I think that was the impression the lieutenant had had when he had been assigned to give this lecture. The last minute, he got down and started going through the news magazines to get his information, got it somewhat inaccurately, and didn't particularly care whether it was accurate or not anyway. Stood up in front of the troops and reeled off the lecture, and, of course, most of the enlisted men didn't know enough to criticize him either because they weren't that interested, and that was it—with a couple of people laughing up their sleeves, and this happened later, this didn't happen at the time I knew Oswald.
However, in such a situation Oswald would have been careful I am sure to raise his hand and correct the lieutenant.
Mr.Jenner. I was going to get to that. During the course of these lectures did the troops as you called them engage in discussion with the instructor?
Mr.Thornley. They were permitted to ask questions, to raise their hands to ask questions. And Oswald would have probably asked a question which would have made light of the lieutenant's ignorance.
Mr.Jenner. Put the lieutenant at a disadvantage?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Were you present at any times when you were at El Toro whenthe lectures occurred when, at that time Oswald raised his hand and engaged in dissertation?
Mr.Thornley. I might have been but I don't recall it if I was. I recall being present at several lectures at El Toro, and it just might have happened. It was the kind of thing Oswald would do and it wouldn't even have phased me. I probably wouldn't even have bothered to remember if it had happened. It would have been just part of the daily routine there so I wouldhave——
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever engage in that sort of thing?
Mr.Thornley. No; I never had guts enough to stand up and tell an officer he didn't know what he was talking about. Behind his back I might tell somebody that such-and-such officer didn't know what he was talking about, but I was never quite that brash—in that particular respect, anyway.
Mr.Jenner. What were your impressions on Oswald being interested in music?
Mr.Thornley. Not being interested in music myselfparticularly——
Mr.Jenner. I take it you had none; that is, any impressions as to his interests?
Mr.Thornley. No, therefore, I had none; correct.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever play chess with him?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever see him playing chess with anyone else?
Mr.Thornley. Just now you mentioned the word "chess" as a definite association; I think he did play chess. I can't place the person. This—there were some other people in the outfit who played chess. There is one name I have been trying to remember for a long time, and I think it starts with "Win" something. "Winter" something. I'm probably way off base there. But a tall blond corporal, I believe, played chess and a couple of other men in the outfit played chess. At that time, I guess at that, I knew how to play chess. I have never been particularly interested, though, in the game so I don't—I am pretty sure I didn't play chess with him.
In fact, come to think of it I had just been cured of playing chess 3 months before that; somebody beat me in about six moves and I stopped playing for about a year. It wasn't me.
Mr.Jenner. While at El Toro did Oswald become engaged in any physical altercations with anybody?
Mr.Thornley. No; definitely not to my knowledge. Never got into any fights or even any hot personal argument over anything, that I know of.
Mr.Jenner. What was your impression, if you had one then, as to his disposition in that regard?
Mr.Thornley. I had the impression that he avoided violence.
Mr.Jenner. While you were at El Toro do you recall whether Oswald ever went off the base on liberty?
Mr.Thornley. As far as I know he didn't.
Mr.Jenner. Were there any discussions on the base as to what, if anything, Oswald did?
Mr.Thornley. Not in my presence.
Mr.Jenner. What, if anything, Oswald had done off the base on liberty?
Mr.Thornley. Not in my presence.
Mr.Jenner. Was there ever any discussion of Cuba and Castro and that problem?
Mr.Thornley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. All right; tell us all about that.
Mr.Thornley. Well, at that time I and Oswald were both, and a couple of other men in the outfit, were quite sure that Castro was a great hero.
Mr.Jenner. Why?
Mr.Thornley. Well, he was liberating Cuba from Batista and, of course, we had heard all about Batista and what an evil man he was, which I am sure was true, and most of us had read some of the things written by Castro, some of Castro's promises—such as he would take no part in the government after the revolution, such things—so we had the definite impression—I remember there was one Puerto Rican boy, myself, Oswald, a couple of others who had quite an admiration for Castro, and thought the pro-Communist statements he was or might be making at the time, were made simply to guarantee a little more independence for his island because it was located so close to the United States.
In other words, I felt at the time he was playing both ends against the middle in order to go his own way, something like Charles de Gaulle is doing right now by recognizing Red China. I felt it was purely statesmanship, statecraft, power politics. I didn't feel that Castro was a dedicated Communist. Whether Oswald did or not I don't know. He admired Castro because of the social reforms Castro was introducing. So did I at that time.
Delgado, the Puerto Rican boy, as I recall it, was becoming worried at that time because he was beginning to think maybe Castro was communistic. I didn't think so. Oswald, as far as I know, didn't have anything to say on that matter. And that is about all I can tell you.
Mr.Jenner. Well, you say that you admired Castro and you knew Oswald admired Castro. Tell us on what you base that comment.
Mr.Thornley. Well, once again as I remember, there was one of these afternoon discussions once again, and somebody was saying something, worried about Castro, it might have been Delgado, it might have been somebody else, I don't think it was Delgado that day because I think he was defending Castro, somebody said something against Castro, and Oswald said that he didn't think Castro was so bad.
He thought Castro was good for Cuba, and they said why, and I took up the argument, which was the argument I just gave you, the naive idea I had at the time that he was playing for independence, and Oswald remained silent, shaking his head affirmatively a couple of times, and that was it.
Mr.Jenner. Shaking his head affirmatively with respect to the comments you were making?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; to my argument, to my justification of Castro.
Mr.Jenner. But you recall no provocative remarks that he made in that connection?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. Did Oswald have a nickname?
Mr.Thornley. Not that I know of except Oz sometimes.
Mr.Jenner. Did you ever hear him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit"?
Mr.Thornley. Well, yes; I didn't realize that anybody else referred to him as such but I always thought of him as such. He reminded me very much of a cartoon character at that time. It was kind of pathetic. There was something about this little smile of his, and his expression on his face and the shape of his head, just the general, his general appearance established a definite association in my mind with some Warner Bros. cartoon character, I believe Warner Bros. And I, very recently, in a discussion with someone, describing Oswald mentioned that he reminded you of—I said: "I think there is a character called Oswald Rabbit who appears in movie cartoons." And they shook their head.
Now, I know where I got that particular example so I probably heard him referred to as "Ozzie Rabbit," though I don't recall specifically.
Mr.Jenner. Did he occasionally have a nickname or a reference made to him attendant upon his interest in the study of the Russian language or his interest in communism or in Russia orSoviet——
Mr.Thornley. Only he was sometimes called the Communist and he would, sometimes I know—as far as his study of the Russian language went he made no attempt to hide this.
In fact, he made—would make attempts to show it off by speaking a little Russian.
Mr.Jenner. He was proud of that, was he?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; there was someone else in the outfit who spoke Russian, don't ask me who, they used to exchange a few comments in the morning at muster and say hello to each other or something, and he also would make jokes in Russian, not in Russian, but in English, in a thick Russian accent many times; this was very typical of him.
Mr.Jenner. He resorted to that area and use of satire?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; until I had made the comment that implied he was a Communist, I had noidea——
Mr.Jenner. That he was sensitive?
Mr.Thornley. That he was sensitive about it because he didn't seem to be.
Mr.Jenner. Did he have any visitors?
Mr.Thornley. Not that I recall.
Mr.Jenner. Was there any discussion at anytime about the possibility of his going to Russia?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. This was a complete surprise to you when you saw it in Stars and Stripes?
Mr.Thornley. Somebody would say to him, "Why don't you go and live in Russia," in the middle of an argument.
Mr.Jenner. I didn't mean that in that sense but did he volunteer a statement on his part about his going to Russia?
Mr.Thornley. Never anything; no.
Mr.Jenner. I take it it was your opinion he was not a Communist at the time he was assigned to El Toro?
Mr.Thornley. That was my opinion.
Mr.Jenner. I take it you have never seen or talked with Oswald subsequent to the time he left or you left for Japan, from El Toro?
Mr.Thornley. No.
Mr.Jenner. That is, my statement is correct.
Mr.Thornley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. It follows, I take it, that you were never aware that he was in New Orleans when you were there?
Mr.Thornley. No; I wasn't.
Mr.Jenner. You were not aware of his comings and goings other than the newspaper report that your folks sent you?
Mr.Thornley. I was aware that he had come back from the Soviet Union and gone to Dallas, and I know I at that time did think about going to see him in Dallas for the book, to find out just why he did go to Russia, to check it with my own theory.
Mr.Jenner. I am going to get to that in due course.
Mr.Thornley. But aside from knowing that he came back and went to live in Dallas with a Russian wife and a child I had no idea of his comings or goings.
Mr.Jenner. At the time you had some notion of going to Dallas to see him or Fort Worth, as the case might be, it was with respect to the book you have talked about you were then in the process of writing or fulminating about?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; it was practically—well, it was finished by that time but I was thinking about, I was definitely planning to rewrite it. I didn't know how soon, and I thought before I did rewrite it I would go talk to him and see what he could tell me about. There were a lot of gaps in the book, and in the book I was not able to explain how he got from the United States to Russia and things like that. A lot of things I wanted to check out and I thought if I could get him to cooperate with me, perhaps not even in telling him I was writing the book, I could get the information I wanted.
Mr.Jenner. And this was the state of mind you had after you had heard that he returned to the United States?
Mr.Thornley. Right.
Mr.Jenner. Which was June of 1962, when he returned?
Mr.Thornley. Right, and I had finished the book in February.
Mr.Jenner. Of 1963?
Mr.Thornley. 1962.
Mr.Jenner. 1962. You were in Mexico and Mexico City in 1963?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. Cover that for us. What was the motivation, the length of the trip?
Mr.Thornley. I will have to begin at the beginning on that. On April 17, my parents sent me a gift of $100 on the condition that I spend it for a bus ticket to visit them that summer. Which I did, and I left around—well, I arrived in California on May 5. I remember going along the border and seeing fireworks on the other side of the border.
Mr.Jenner. What border?
Mr.Thornley. From Yuma to San Diego.
Mr.Jenner. Mexican border?
Mr.Thornley. That is Cinco De Mayo. I arrived in California on May 5 and I stayed there until late August. Now, I think in one of these reports that I gave to the FBI the information might be different. Since then I have checked with notebooks that I kept of my activity, and I was on my way back to New Orleans in late August. I went by way of Mexico City because I have taken 5 years of Spanish in school and I never had the opportunity to live in an environment where I would have to use it, depend on it solely, and I wanted to see how I would do. I have always wanted to visit Mexico, to see Mexico City. I checked into the prices. I had found out I had enough money that I would be able to go down to Mexico City and stay a short while.
So I went down there for about a week, actually it was 6 days I spent within Mexico, from Tijuana to Mexico City, on a Mexican bus, and then when my money began to run out from Mexico City to Matamoros or Brownsville, Tex., on a Mexican bus.
At this time, on my way up on a bus to Matamoros, it was September 2, because I had that in my notes, I have some notes about the bus ride and the date September 2.
And I went from Brownsville to New Orleans by way of either Greyhound or Continental.
Mr.Jenner. When did you arrive in New Orleans?
Mr.Thornley. I went directly to New Orleans, so I imagine I arrived in New Orleans on September 3, possibly September 4.
Mr.Jenner. So that between approximately May 1, 1963, and September 4 and5——
Mr.Thornley. Say May 3 to September 4.
Mr.Jenner. You were not in New Orleans?
Mr.Thornley. Right.
Mr.Jenner. You were returning to your home in California? You stayed there for approximately a month or so?
Mr.Thornley. Longer than that.
Mr.Jenner. Longer than that. You then went to Mexico, Mexico City, and you then returned directly to New Orleans?
Mr.Thornley. Yes, sir.
Mr.Jenner. During none of that period of time did you have any contact with or hear anything about Oswald?
Mr.Thornley. Definitely not.
Mr.Jenner. You at one time at least were acquainted with a lady by the name of Sylvia Bortin?
Mr.Thornley. Sylvia Bortin?
Mr.Jenner. B-o-r-t-i-n.
Mr.Thornley. Yes; this young lady, by theway——
Mr.Jenner. Where did she reside?
Mr.Thornley. In Whittier, Calif., or at least last summer she did, I don't know where she resides now. This young lady, by the way, was mentioned in—her mention in this whole matter came out of a misunderstanding on my part of a question asked by the FBI agents.
Mr.Jenner. All right. Would you explain that, please?
Mr.Thornley. I don't recall what the question was—oh, yes, he had asked me something about, I believe it was the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. I had mentioned earlier at the time I was talking to Oswald, and knew Oswald, I had been going to the First Unitarian Church in Los Angeles. This is a group of quite far to the left people politically for the most part, and mentioned in order to explain my political relationship with Oswald, at that moment, and he began to ask me questions about the First Unitarian Church and I answered, and then he realized or understood or asked what Oswald's connection with the First Unitarian Church was and I explained to him that there was none. Miss Bortin never knew Oswald and vice versa, and these people were two different parts of my life. There was this civilian compartment and the military compartment, and I never intermingled them.
Mr.Jenner. This young lady married and her husband is now in Havana, Cuba?
Mr.Thornley. That is what she told me last summer; yes. He was going to school in Cuba.
Mr.Jenner. I take it this had nothing to do with yourself and Oswald's views with respect to Castro that you told us about.
Mr.Thornley. No; this happened, I think, later, in fact I am sure it happened later. At that time Miss Bortin, she was then unmarried, did not know Robert Uname, I believe. I met him, I believe, September a year later.
Mr.Jenner. Had you finished that?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. I take it that Oswald had no close personal friends at least that you observed?
Mr.Thornley. That is correct. And the name of his closest friends I do not know. I do remember he had a close acquaintance that he seemed to get along with pretty well.
Mr.Jenner. In the unit?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; but I don't recall this man's name. If it was mentioned to me, I probably could,but——
Mr.Jenner. You were groping for it when you were interviewed. You suggested it might beCharles——
Mr.Thornley. I mentioned a Charles.
Mr.Jenner. Weis.
Mr.Thornley. Weir, but that was not the man. This was a friend of a friend of the friend or a man who could give them that information perhaps that I couldn't.
At this time perhaps, also, I was thinking of a possibility it might have been Weir and since then I have remembered definitely who Weir was.
Mr.Jenner. Who was he?
Mr.Thornley. I don't remember whether his first name was Charles but I remember who he was.
Mr.Jenner. He was a noncom?
Mr.Thornley. There was a man named Cooley. There was somebody else, and these are my associations, but who it was who used to talk Russian in the ranks with Oswald in the morning I don't know, but that is who it was.
Mr.Jenner. Is this particular man you now mentioned the man who occasionally talked Russian with Oswald in the ranks, is he the man who you had in mind?
Mr.Thornley. Yes.
Mr.Jenner. As having been a friend of Oswald's?
Mr.Thornley. Yes; in that in the same respect that I was a friend of Oswald's. Once, again, the exact terminology I would use would be close acquaintance.
Mr.Jenner. Yes; I would say from your description of the relationship with Oswald that it was more an acquaintanceship than a friendship.
Mr.Thornley. I think it was probably the same with this person from what I recall, to my knowledge.
Mr.Jenner. In other words, when you say friend, he wasn't a buddy of Oswald?