Mr.Liebeler. You have never heard of any connection until the assassination?
GeneralWalker. Until his activities of November 22. More specifically, no knowledge or no reference of any indication that Duff was in any way connected with Oswald. I still think that the information that Kirk Coleman gave is very relevant to this case, and I would like to say as far as I am concerned, our efforts are practically blocked.
I would like to see at least a capability of my counsel being able to talk to these witnesses freely and that you or the FBI give a release on them with respect to being able to discuss it as it involves me.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him? So far as I know, thisCommission——
GeneralWatts. I never tried to talk to Coleman.
GeneralWalker. The word we got is, the boy has been told not to say anything.That may not be the direct information, but I think you will find it about what the situation is.
GeneralWatts. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. The last question was, has your counsel attempted to talk to Mr. Coleman and Mr. Coleman refused to talk to him?
GeneralWalker. No; I have no knowledge of my counsel trying to speak to him, but I was told by others that tried to get to him that he has been advised and wasn't talking, and that he had been advised not to talk.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that, General Walker, do you remember?
GeneralWalker. Oh, it's been at least 3 or 4 months ago.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know who told him he wasn't supposed to talk to anybody?
GeneralWalker. No; I don't. It is my understanding some law enforcement agency in some echelon. But the important thing we would like to find out is who is responsible for the open case, if it is back in the hands of the city police or if it is still held under advisement, and as soon as it got back into their hands, we can go to dealing with them. Until it does, under your requirements, if there are such requirements, the question becomes when can we get into this further?
Mr.Liebeler. I want the record to indicate that the Commission, to my knowledge at least, and I think I would know about it, has never told anybody not to talk to you about the attack on you in any way, shape or form whatsoever, and has no intention of doing so. That is point 1.
Point 2 is that the Commission is conducting its own investigation into this matter, and has requested the Federal Bureau of Investigation to conduct an investigation into the matter, which it has done at the request of the Commission, and the report will include a finding one way or the other as to whether Oswald was the man who was involved in this attack on you.
GeneralWalker. It will have such a finding?
Mr.Liebeler. It certainly will, and will be a complete disclosure.
GeneralWalker. Then it must be handling the case, because we have information that the city police turned all the information over to the FBI and there was nothing for us to deal with them about.
My counsel went to the city police on this. Then the FBI definitely said that they had turned it over to the Commission, and then they were under whatever wraps there were, but wraps that kept them from carrying on any development of the cases.
Mr.Liebeler. No activity of this Commission has ever foreclosed any other law enforcement agency from doing anything that they saw fit to do. The FBI conducts its investigation in any way it sees fit, and the Dallas Police Department does the same thing.
GeneralWalker. I think we should have a round robin discussion with the city police, FBI, and yourself, if you all have what you have stated, so that we will understand this too, and place this case and the Warren Reynolds case back where they should be. I would think that we should get together to establish who is responsible for the open cases in the city of Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, the President's Commission on the investigation of the assassination of President Kennedy is certainly not responsible for open cases in the city of Dallas. That your counsel will tell you. That is perfectly obvious.
GeneralWalker. Then I want to go on the record that the city police has misused the Commission and also the FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. I have no knowledge of that.
GeneralWalker. I think it is—I can't straighten it out and neither can my counsel. I think it is perfectly obvious that somebody is misusing somebody, the fact that we have no starting point and this is an open case, and this is true with Warren Reynolds as well as myself.
Mr.Liebeler. I am glad you brought that subject up. Tell us what you know about that.
GeneralWalker. I certainly will.
Mr.Liebeler. Before you do, I think I did hear the witness come in out here.
Go ahead.
GeneralWalker. I would prefer you to question me on which way you want me to discuss this case and I will answer what is necessary.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Warren Reynolds?
GeneralWalker. I do know Warren Reynolds.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you meet him?
GeneralWalker. My first contact with Warren Reynolds was by telephone, I would say sometime in the area of 8 or 10 days after he was shot through the temple. I thought I had the date of that, or the press release, but I didn't seem to bring it with me. But you probably have that date.
It doesn't make much difference. I would say sometime I saw a notice in the paper when it came out to the effect that Warren Reynolds had been shot in the head and a Latin type was seen running away.
I left on a trip and came back to the house, and I was curious about Warren Reynolds and I asked somebody in the house to call and see about Reynolds, and was told to call the hospital.
I found out that day finally after calling out to his place of business, found out he was out walking around that afternoon. I think we found out he had just been released from the hospital that day. I would say that was about 10 days from the time he was fired at.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have the date of that?
GeneralWalker. That was approximately January 23 or January 24, 1964, and within a day or two I had a telephone conversation over there.
I talked to Warren Reynolds finally and he said he wanted to talk to me or said he would talk to me, and I asked him the circumstances of what had happened to him.
Within a day or two I would say—I said, "If you want to see me, you can." And he came to the house and discussed what had happened to him with regard to being shot through the head, how it all happened, and I have been quite interested in his case.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, am I correct in understanding that you initiated the contact with Mr. Reynolds?
GeneralWalker. I did.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times have you seen him?
GeneralWalker. Sir?
Mr.Liebeler. When was the first time you actually saw him in person, if you ever did, and I believe that you did.
GeneralWalker. I don't remember the exact date, but a week after the first telephone conversation, within a week or so after the first telephone conversation, I believe he dropped by the house with his brother.
Mr.Liebeler. How many times have you seen him in person altogether?
GeneralWalker. I believe he has been in the house twice.
Mr.Liebeler. You have also had various telephone conversations with him, isn't that right, General Walker?
GeneralWalker. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, you talked on the telephone with him yesterday noon, didn't you?
GeneralWalker. Very likely.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall whether you did?
GeneralWalker. I talked to him yesterday, yes. I don't remember the exact time.
Mr.Liebeler. Will you tell us the substance, the general substance of your conversation with him over this period that you have been in contact with him.
GeneralWalker. I was very much interested in his case and why they would have, why there would have been an attempt on his life, since, according to his story, you might say he was the last one to see Oswald in the domestic state after he had killed Police Officer Tippit.
I have had these conversations with him to get all the details I could regarding why he thought he was shot at or who shot at him and what the police were doing about it, and how he felt about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he indicate to you the first time that he talked to you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and his observation of Oswald?
GeneralWalker. Pardon?
Mr.Liebeler. Following the time that Oswald shot Officer Tippit?
GeneralWalker. Will you repeat the question?
Mr.Liebeler. Did Reynolds tell you that he thought there was some connection between the attack on him and Oswald killing Tippit?
GeneralWalker. We discussed that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you that he thought there was a connection between the two?
GeneralWalker. He seemed to think there might be.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you think there is?
GeneralWalker. Yes; I do.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any evidence to indicate that there is?
GeneralWalker. I think there is a definite—I don't know that you could call it evidence—but you can anticipate that people would like to shut up anybody that knows anything about this case. People right here in Dallas. And I don't think anybody knows or would have known at the time after November 22 how much or how little Warren Reynolds knew.
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, he doesn't know very much, does he?
GeneralWalker. He would become a very good example, regardless of what he knew, to let everybody know that they better keep their mouths shut.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, wouldn't it be fair to say that that is pure speculation on your part?
GeneralWalker. Yes, but everything is speculation until you prove it or disprove it.
Mr.Liebeler. But my basic problem is this, and I am not just trying to harass you.
I want to know if you have any evidence or can give us some idea on how to approach this problem to find out if there is any connection, because the Commission would certainly like to know if there is.
GeneralWalker. I would be much interested in the hanging of the woman in the prison here in the cell that said she had worked in the Carousel Club, her only claim to fame, who I believe was the same woman, as I remember my information at this point, was the same woman that was driven over to this used car lot where the Reynolds brothers worked.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, in point of fact, your primary source of information in connection with this whole thing is the newspaper story written by Bob Considine; isn't that right? That is where you first got all this information?
GeneralWalker. He did cite this case; that is correct. That was one of the pieces of information I had.
Mr.Liebeler. You cited from this newspaper story and the statements that Warren Reynolds has made to you, and your observations about what you have been told about the facts regarding this stripper.
Are these the only things that led you to believe, plus your other statement about keeping people quiet, are the only things that led you to believe there might be some connection between these two events? Isn't that a fair statement?
GeneralWalker. It would seem significant to me from Reynolds' story that he was only checked by the law enforcement agencies 2 days before he was shot, that somebody was watching what was going on.
There are many things that would make me go into a lot of leads which no doubt make you all go into a lot of leads. Probably what you already know, but just to say that one particular thing is the only thing that makes me curious about this attempt on Warren's life as the one out of a hundred of used car lot operators in Dallas, to attempt the assassination of Warren who had seen Oswald, makes this quite unusual.
Mr.Liebeler. I want you to tell us right now on the record all of the things that you can think of that led you to believe that there is some connection between these two events, in addition to the ones that you have already suggested.
GeneralWalker. I have just referred to one.
Mr.Liebeler. That one that you referred to isthe——
GeneralWalker. The fact that there has not been, as far as I know, any finding of the man who attempted to kill him, is another one.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned previously that Reynolds had said that the law enforcement—you didn't say Reynolds said it—you said that you understood that the law enforcement officers had checked Reynolds just 2 days before he had been shot; is that correct?
GeneralWalker. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. That is what Reynolds told you?
GeneralWalker. That is correct. I believe he referred to them as FBI.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other indications of any possible relationship between these things, that would help the Commission try to find out if there is a relationship between these events?
GeneralWalker. I don't think of anything else; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you sent a telegram to the Commission suggesting that we question Warren Reynolds?
GeneralWalker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. As you probably know, of course, we have questioned him yesterday.
GeneralWalker. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss Mr. Reynolds' appearance with us, with him?
GeneralWalker. I did. He called me on the telephone and we discussed it. He said you were a very nice young man.
Mr.Liebeler. Thank you, General Walker. Thank Mr. Reynolds. You didn't say that. That is what he said. That isn't what you said.
GeneralWalker. I may call him tonight and tell him the same thing.
I think we are working in the same effort and same direction. I haven't done anything to hide on this thing. I do ask that you all get the chain of command straightened out here, or chain of responsibility with respect to the case.
Mr.Liebeler. Those problems come up many times because there isn't any real chain of command or responsibility between these people. We don't have very much to do with the Dallas Police Department.
GeneralWalker. When they pass things to the FBI and the FBI is responsible to you, then it gives me a feeling it is probably out of their hands. Certainly they have used that.
Mr.Liebeler. Now do you have any knowledge or any information that would indicate that Oswald was involved in a conspiracy of any type on the assassination of the President?
GeneralWalker. I think he designated his own conspiracy when he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee. That to me is a definite recognition of conspiracy.
Mr.Liebeler. Suggesting that the Fair Play for Cuba Committee was involved?
GeneralWalker. I would say as a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, it could not be segregated from being involved in it when one of its members does it, who thinks like they do.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, that is of course, your view. My question of you is this. Do you have any evidence or any knowledge that would indicate either the involvement of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee or any other individual or organization in a conspiracy or plot to assassinate the President.
The fact that Oswald may have been a member of this organization, which he was, of course, is a fact that can be viewed from many different ways. But my question to you is somewhat different from that, and that is, do you know of or have any evidence to indicate that this organization or any other organization or any other person was involved with Oswald in the assassination of the President?
GeneralWalker. My answer to you is that I have exactly the evidence that you have, which is evidence that it was involved in the conspiracy, because he said he was a member of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee, and I consider the objectives of the Fair Play for Cuba Committee a Communist activity and a conspiracy.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know if anyone discussed the assassination with Oswald prior to the time that he assassinated the President, if he did the assassination; do you have any indication of that?
GeneralWalker. I have no personal knowledge that they did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any indication that they did?
GeneralWalker. I certainly do.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell us what that is?
GeneralWalker. The indications seem to be not only mine, but all over the country that Rubenstein and Oswald had some association.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you indicate to us what it was?
GeneralWalker. Well, I am wondering about one thing, how Rubenstein can take his car in to be fixed and Oswald can sign the ticket and pick up the car.
Mr.Liebeler. Now can you tell us when and where that happened?
GeneralWalker. I haven't been able to verify that it happened for sure, but I have been told that it happened.
Mr.Liebeler. Who told you that?
GeneralWalker. My information came from a repairman, from another fellow to a friend of mine, to me.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you give us the name of the person?
GeneralWalker. I don't think it is necessary. I think you have all the information, because the information also includes the fact that the records were picked up in the repair shop.
Mr.Liebeler. Whether we have the information or not, I am asking you if you know the name of that repairman who said that Oswald said he picked up his car?
GeneralWalker. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know the name of the garage?
GeneralWalker. No; I don't. As I remember, it was a hotel garage.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you give us the name of the people that brought the information to you, so it can be traced back to this source? Who the garageman is, apparently as you say, that it came from a garageman somewhere.
GeneralWalker. No; I think your sources are better than mine on this.
Mr.Liebeler. That is not my question. My question is, do you know their names?
GeneralWalker. Yes; I do, but I am not telling.
Mr.Liebeler. So you are not going to tell us the names of these people?
GeneralWalker. Hold up. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
GeneralWalker. We are all working in the best interests of this thing. I don't see where my sources of information have to be revealed. You know whether the information is any good or not, and I don't see any reason to get any more people involved than are already involved in it. The information is either correct or incorrect, and can be substantiated by your Commission, or it is not.
This that I am telling you is the information I have got. Now, if you all find out that it is absolutely necessary to your information, but revelation of the names of the people isn't necessary to your information with regard to the assassination. I think we have covered the assassination, and—as helpful as I can be—don't think I wouldn't be delighted to see exactly all the truth that can probably come out of it, come out of it.
Mr.Liebeler. All we are asking you to do is give us whatever information you have that can help us in this investigation.
GeneralWalker. That I think we have covered, haven't we?
Mr.Liebeler. I don't know whether we have or not.
GeneralWalker. If you find out you need the further information that will really help the assassination story—we will leave it like this—I will do the best I can to cooperate on it, but I don't think it is necessary to reveal all the sources of my information, and the story which you all should have the basic facts. The basic facts are the records on the story and you either know whether or not they are true or not. I haven't done all this investigation.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, I am not able to make a determination as to whether or not the information that you have would be helpful to the Commission's work because I don't know what information you have.
GeneralWalker. Let's leave that, because if it is in the best interest of finding anything, that there is a hole in their findings, why we will reveal it.
Mr.Liebeler. I am going to let the question stand. I do ask you to tell mewho advised you or who apprised you of information that Oswald picked up Jack Ruby's car, because I am not able to make a determination as to whether or not that information would be worthless to the Commission. It might be helpful and it it might be that these people should be questioned by people on the Commission staff or by the FBI. So for that reason, I am compelled to let the question stand, and I do renew my request for you to give me the answer.
GeneralWalker. I will answer that at some later date if you find it necessary, I will reconsider it.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, aside from the matter we have just discussed, can you tell us what other common acquaintances Mr. Ruby and Mr. Oswald had, as that is the statement that started all this? You indicated that Ruby and Oswald had common acquaintances.
GeneralWalker. I thought DeMar's statements—I believe the man is DeMar—were very interesting, and they were only by hearsay from the newspaper, if you call that hearsay.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other indication that Oswald and Ruby were connected?
GeneralWalker. I am going back on the other question. I say it was only from newspapers. They have been also from the owner or editor of the newspaper, who may have told me that his reporter had been in touch with DeMar. I believe the town is on the Tennessee-Kentucky border or somewhere up there. I don't recall the name of the town where he was at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. This is DeMar that was up there?
GeneralWalker. Yes. Have I got the right name? DeMar is the man that was on the program in one of Rubenstein's clubs.
Mr.Liebeler. The name seems familiar to me. I don't know the man's name actually myself.
GeneralWalker. As I recall, it was DeMar, the one that made the original statement that he saw Oswald in the club one night. That was printed in the press.
Mr.Liebeler. Aside from the fellow DeMar having made the statement, do you know of any other connection between Ruby and Oswald or any other common acquaintances that they may have?
GeneralWalker. I believe we verified that Oswald had been for a short period living in the same apartment house where Ruby's sister lived.
Mr.Liebeler. What is Ruby's sister's name?
GeneralWalker. Eva Grant.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know what apartment house that is?
GeneralWalker. No; I don't recall.
Mr.Liebeler. Who verified this?
GeneralWalker. I say I believe I verified it.
Mr.Liebeler. You did yourself?
GeneralWalker. With assistance.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, you are telling me that you conducted an investigation of some sort into the possibility that Ruby's sister, Eva Grant, and Oswald lived in the same apartment house? Now is that in the city of Dallas?
GeneralWalker. That is correct. And as I recall the address, I never did pinpoint it, but as I recall, it wouldn't be too far from where I live. And of course, I am still interested in my case with respect to Oswald, if there is any significance.
Mr.Liebeler. Now can you tell me when they were supposed to have lived in this apartment house?
GeneralWalker. I don't recall the date.
Mr.Liebeler. Was it 1963?
GeneralWalker. This is getting pretty old in my mind. It definitely would have been in 1963; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. 1963?
GeneralWalker. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Was the apartment on Neely Street, if you remember?
GeneralWalker. As I recall—is Neely over in Oak Cliff or on this side?
Mr.Liebeler. It is in Oak Cliff.
GeneralWalker. No; it wasn't that far away.
Mr.Liebeler. It wasn't in Oak Cliff at all?
GeneralWalker. Well, I had the idea at the time that it was on this side of town, out the side I am on.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, from the time Oswald came back from the Soviet Union and moved to Dallas and the time he was killed, he lived in an apartment on Neely Street, and on Elsbeth Street and in a room on Marsalis Street, and 1026 North Beckley Street. Those are the only four places he ever lived. Was it on any one of those four streets that this is supposed to have happened?
GeneralWalker. I can't recall definitely. Are they over in Oak Cliff?
Mr.Liebeler. I believe each and every one of them, with the possible exception of Marsalis, is.
GeneralWalker. I can get the information that I must have recorded somewhere on the address we have.
Mr.Liebeler. If you have any indication that Oswald lived in the same apartment house that Ruby's sister lived, I will appreciate it very much if you would supply it to the Commission.
GeneralWalker. Take a note on that, will you. I believe there is a paper release on it.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other information that would indicate any connection between Ruby and Oswald? By that question I do not mean to characterize the previous testimony.
GeneralWalker. If Oswald was the one that was at my house, I wonder where he was from the time he left until he got home, since the Las Vegas Club is not too far from my house.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any indication that Oswald went to that club?
GeneralWalker. No; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other information that would suggest a connection between these two men?
GeneralWalker. I think the two boxes in the post office are very interesting.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, are you suggesting that because two men both happened to have post office boxes in the same post office, that that suggests there is some connection between them and indicates conspiracy to assassinate the President?
GeneralWalker. The boxes were rented the same week.
Mr.Liebeler. Were what?
GeneralWalker. I believe the boxes were arranged the same week in the post office.
Mr.Liebeler. Rented?
GeneralWalker. Rented.
Mr.Liebeler. You think that suggests a conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate the President?
GeneralWalker. I think that is more information.
Mr.Liebeler. But I want to know.
GeneralWalker. That suggests a possible relationship. I think the fact that Rubenstein shot Oswald suggests plenty. I am convinced he couldn't have shot him except for one basic reason, and maybe many others, but to keep him quiet. That is what shooting people does. I think the whole city of Dallas is very interested. I would be interested in the information on a Professor Wolf, William T. Wolf.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is he?
GeneralWalker. William T.
Mr.Liebeler. What information is that?
GeneralWalker. The first man we found in the paper that seemed to have come to death after the attempted shot at me.
Mr.Liebeler. I am not familiar with the circumstances surrounding that. Would you tell me about Dr. Wolf?
GeneralWalker. William T. Wolf is a professor that was supposedly burned up in an apartment, which seems impossible to have burned a man up, a normal man with his normal faculties, because the apartment, he couldn't have been trapped in it on the first floor.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know Dr. Wolf?
GeneralWalker. Never heard of him until I read about him in the paper, and I believe I read about him 8 days after they shot at me.
Mr.Liebeler. You think there is some connection between Dr. Wolf's death and the shot at you?
GeneralWalker. No; but I think there is some connection with respect to what is going on in Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, does this relate to the possibility of a conspiracy between Oswald and Ruby to assassinate President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. I think many unusual deaths in the city of Dallas might show some indication of what is going on in Dallas, to include what happened on the 22d of November. And I would refer to one other, a professor by the name of Deen. His name is George C. Deen.
Mr.Liebeler. What has that got to do with the assassination of President Kennedy? What are the facts about it?
GeneralWalker. I would think it has to do with the investigation.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, in what way?
GeneralWalker. It seems rather mysterious that a young doctor of psychiatry at Timberlawn would, so far as I can tell, only show up in the obituary page.
Mr.Liebeler. What happened to this fellow?
GeneralWalker. Reported died of natural causes, I believe, or certainly nothing more than the obituary, so far as I can find.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you familiar with the organization known as The Minutemen?
GeneralWalker. In general terms.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you a member of that organization?
GeneralWalker. I am not.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between The Minutemen and the assassination of President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any conspiracy or connection on the part of any so-called rightwing organization and the assassination of President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. I do not.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know of any connection between any of the people who associate themselves with and who, shall we say, follow you as a political leader, and the assassination of President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. No. People that follow me are for constitutional government. This is absolutely in violation of constitutional government. Very destructive to what we stand for.
Mr.Liebeler. So you say that there is no involvement of any kind or nature whatever between any of the organizations or people that associate with you or are involved with you in the assassination of President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. I certainly know of none, and I certainly wouldn't be suspicious of any. I would be suspicious from the center to the left.
Mr.Liebeler. In any event, you don't have any knowledge of or information that would suggest to you any such conspiracy or involvement of any rightwing organization or person; is that correct?
GeneralWalker. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I asked General Watts to bring whatever records you have that would indicate your whereabouts in October and after that in 1963. Particularly, I want to know whether you were at a political rally or meeting that was held immediately prior to the visit of Adlai Stevenson to the city of Dallas in October of 1963.
GeneralWalker. Yes, I was the speaker on the day before Mr. Stevenson appeared in the auditorium. I was the speaker in the same room and the same platform on October 22.
Mr.Liebeler. Was that event called U.S. Day?
GeneralWalker. U.S. Day rally.
Mr.Liebeler. How many people would you say were there at that rally?
GeneralWalker. The room holds about 1,700 seats, and there were about 1,300 to 1,400.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you aware of the fact that Lee Harvey Oswald claims to have been at that meeting?
GeneralWalker. No, sir; I wasn't.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't know he was there at the time?
GeneralWalker. I don't know yet.
Mr.Liebeler. In any event, you didn't know then?
GeneralWalker. Certainly didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you recall speaking—pardon me, not speaking, but going to any meetings of anti-Castro Cuban groups during the month of October 1963?
GeneralWalker. During what month?
Mr.Liebeler. October.
GeneralWalker. I don't remember a date of attendance.
Mr.Liebeler. Isn't it a fact that there were some meetings here in Dallas sponsored by an organization known as DRE, which is a revolutionary group that is opposed to Fidel Castro? Do you remember that?
GeneralWalker. What does DRE stand for?
Mr.Liebeler. It is the initials of a lot of Spanish words which stands for the Student Revolutionary Council. It is an anti-Castro organization.
GeneralWalker. What does DRE stand for? How would they have advertised themselves?
Mr.Liebeler. I think it is probably DRE.
GeneralWalker. Meaning what?
Mr.Liebeler. It is Spanish words I am not familiar with.
GeneralWalker. Well, there is a student directorate group, which I remember they call themselves, and that is the way they identified themselves. I attended a meeting sometime and listened to some speakers.
Mr.Liebeler. They came from Miami?
GeneralWalker. I believe they came from Miami.
Mr.Liebeler. And you contributed $5 to the organization that night?
GeneralWalker. I believe I did.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see Lee Harvey Oswald at that meeting?
GeneralWalker. No; I did not.
Mr.Liebeler. In point of fact, it would be correct to state that, to your knowledge, you never saw or heard of Lee Harvey Oswald at any time prior to the time that his name was announced after the assassination on November 22, 1963?
GeneralWalker. That is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. You had no connection of any sort whatsoever with him prior to that time?
GeneralWalker. None at all.
Mr.Liebeler. Or since that time?
GeneralWalker. Or with anybody that I ever knew that was associated with him, unless Duff turns out to be.
GeneralWatts. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Helmet Hubert Muench?
GeneralWalker. That name is not familiar to me. Can you give me anything to refresh me?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes. He is a West German journalist who wrote an article that appeared in the Deutsche Nationalzeitung und Soldatenzeitung, a Munich, Germany, newspaper.
GeneralWalker. No; I don't know him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever talk to him?
GeneralWalker. Not that I know of.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to him on a transatlantic telephone call in which you told him about the fact or the alleged fact that Lee Harvey Oswald was the person who made an attempt on your life?
GeneralWalker. I don't recall that name. Did he speak English? I don't speak German.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever seen a copy of that newspaper?
GeneralWalker. Yes; I have.
Mr.Liebeler. In fact, I suggest that you have seen the November 29, 1963, copy of that newspaper which had on its front page a story entitled in German "The Strange Case of Oswald", that told about how Oswald had allegedly attacked you.
GeneralWalker. November 29, that is correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, where did that newspaper get that information, do you know?
GeneralWalker. I do not. There was an article in the paper that he probably got from me.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, in fact, the issue of that newspaper has right on the front page what purports to be a transcript of a telephone conversation between you and some other person.
GeneralWalker. Thorsten?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes. Hasso Thorsten, is that the man?
GeneralWalker. He called me in Shreveport.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you in Shreveport?
GeneralWalker. He called me the morning of November 23, 1963, about 7 a.m.
Mr.Liebeler. That is when you gave him this information about Oswald having attacked you?
GeneralWalker. I didn't give him all the information—I think the portion you are referring to, I didn't give him, because I had no way of knowing that Oswald attacked me. I still don't. And I am not very prone to say in fact he did. In fact, I have always claimed he did not, until we can get into the case or somebody tells us differently that he did.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have a record here that indicates when you were in Shreveport?
GeneralWalker. I don't know that I have a record here. I can tell you definitely when I was in Shreveport.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you?
GeneralWalker. Well, starting back to make the record clear, I had a speaking engagement in Hattiesburg, Miss., either the 18th or 19th of November. I went from there to New Orleans and stayed 2 or 3 days. I was in the airplane between New Orleans and Shreveport about halfway, when the pilot announced that the President had been assassinated. I landed in Shreveport and went to the Captain Shreve Hotel and stayed there two nights and returned to Dallas and was walking into my house, just about the time of the immediate rerun of the shooting of Oswald. I had been out of the city on speaking engagements.
Mr.Liebeler. The question was, when were you in Shreveport, and when did you talk to this man?
GeneralWalker. I was in Shreveport the night of the 23d and the night of the 22d. Do you have a transcript of my conversation with Mr. Thorsten?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes, sir.
GeneralWalker. Sir?
Mr.Liebeler. I have what appears to be that; yes.
GeneralWalker. Where did you get that?
Mr.Liebeler. It is apparently taken from the newspaper. The newspaper itself had a transcript printed right in it.
GeneralWalker. I believe the article you referred to in the newspaper was separate from the other article in the paper which evolved out of the conversation.
Mr.Liebeler. Now so that there were in this particular issue of the newspaper two transcripts of a conversation between yourself and Thorsten, and also a story about how Oswald had allegedly fired at you, is that correct?
GeneralWalker. In the newspaper I remember two separate articles. One based upon the conversation we had between us, as he understood it, and then as a separate article which I consider that the newspaper had done on its own.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the separate article about? Did that have any reference to the fact that Oswald had allegedly fired at you?
GeneralWalker. Yes. As I remember the article, it alleged that Oswald was the one that had fired at me, and that this had been known earlier, and that this had been known and that nothing was done about it.
And if something had been done about it at that time, he wouldn't have been the man that—it wouldn't have been possible for him to have killed the President.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, did you tell anybody from this newspaper that Oswald had shot at you and that this had been known prior to the time of the assassination of the President?
GeneralWalker. No; I did not. I wouldn't have known it. It was much later that they began to tie Oswald into me, and I don't even know it yet.
Mr.Liebeler. And you certainly didn't know it before November 22?
GeneralWalker. Or the morning of the 23d, certainly not. I was very surprised to see the article.
Mr.Liebeler. So the best of your recollection is that you never provided them with the information?
GeneralWalker. I did not. I didn't know it at the time of this conversation at all. I didn't know it until I started reading the newspaper, which would have been later than then.
Mr.Liebeler. I think that is right, so that you only had two conversations with these people, is that correct?
GeneralWalker. In connection with this incident, as I remember, there was a call back to verify something on the original conversation? I don't remember how the conversation came about. There were two telephone conversations; right.
Mr.Liebeler. They both took place while you were down in Louisiana, the 23d and the 22d of November?
GeneralWalker. The first one was 7 o'clock in the morning the 23d, and it woke me up.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't have the faintest idea that Oswald had taken a shot at you and you didn't make a statement to that effect to the newspaper?
GeneralWalker. No; I didn't know.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't make a statement to the newspaper or anybody connected with it at any other time, isn't that a fact?
GeneralWalker. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it not a fact?
GeneralWalker. I might have said that the reports over here had connected Oswald with me some subsequent time.
Mr.Liebeler. I am somewhat puzzled by the whole thing, because the newspaper in which this apparently appeared is dated November 29, and in fact, that information was not known to anybody that I know of until a later date thanthat——
GeneralWalker. Much later.
Mr.Liebeler. Several days, at any rate.
GeneralWalker. People began to guess it immediately. I should say guess at it.
Mr.Liebeler. It might have been that the article was based on speculation, and it might have been the newspaper was postdated too. I think that sometimes happens.
GeneralWalker. I think that paper was definitely postdated.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that would explain it. That is what I mean, predated.
GeneralWalker. That is something else.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any other information that you think the Commission ought to have that we haven't already talked about?
GeneralWalker. Yes. I think the Commission should look into George De Mohrenschildt, if it hasn't.
Mr.Liebeler. What do you know about Mr. De Mohrenschildt?
GeneralWalker. I know that my information indicates that he lived next door to the professor that was supposed to have burned up.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have any information that would connect De Mohrenschildt to the assassination of President Kennedy in any way?
GeneralWalker. I have the information the paper had that connected him with the Oswalds.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes?
GeneralWalker. Of course, it is common knowledge that De Mohrenschildt was associated with Oswald now.
Mr.Liebeler. Other than that, do you have any information to indicate that De Mohrenschildt was involved in any way with the assassination of President Kennedy?
GeneralWalker. Not directly.
GeneralWatts. Do you have any indirect evidence?
GeneralWalker. I am tired of them blaming the rightwing, and I have had enough of this, and it is about time that the Commission cleared the city of Dallas.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, do you have any indirect indication or evidence that would associate De Mohrenschildt with the assassination of President Kennedy in any way?
GeneralWalker. I think it is very important that De Mohrenschildt knew Oswald. I think it is very interesting. My information is that De Mohrenschildt went to Haiti. I have nothing further to add.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, is there anything else that you think the Commission ought to know that we have not already mentioned here this evening? It is now 7:15.
GeneralWalker. Where am I at?
Mr.Liebeler. I didn't mean to suggest—I just wanted to let the record show we are both working very hard.
GeneralWalker. I will stay here all night.
Mr.Liebeler. If you have anything else that you think the Commission should know or that you consider to be of material importance, I want you to say so, General Walker, because I think that you have—I hope you realize that the Commission is trying to do the best job that it can with the situation, and that if you can be of help to us, or if anybody else could be of help to us, we want your help.
GeneralWalker. That is my approach to the problem. We certainly want the truth. We want the truth to come out.
GeneralWatts. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
GeneralWalker. I believe it has been released to the press that, and I am not sure that it has, but some information has gotten to me, I can't recall how, but the bullet that was fired at me matched the gun of the type that Oswald used on the 22d. That sounds rather vague, but I believe that is the way the information has come.
GeneralWatts. This is off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. General Watts has indicated that he had some ammunition the investigators got from Mr. Duff and I request you to forward that ammunition, to deliver it to the FBI in Oklahoma City and ask them to forward it to the FBI laboratory, and I will contact the FBI in Washington when I get back.
GeneralWalker. Don't you want to clarify that where they found that in the apartment, wasn't it?
GeneralWatts. Yes. I will get the investigator and get the detailed source of the ammunition and turn the ammunition over to the FBI in Oklahoma City.
GeneralWalker. I can think of nothing else that I am not sure hasn't already come to the Commission one way or another.
Mr.Liebeler. Very well. I have no more questions. I want to thank you very much for coming down and appearing before us and giving us the testimony you have. We appreciate it.
GeneralWalker. Thank you very much. If I can do anything further for you, we will be happy to.
The testimony of Bernard Weissman was taken at 10:30 a.m., on June 9, 1964, at the U.S. District Courthouse, Foley Square, New York, N.Y., by Mr. Melvin Aron Eisenberg, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Bernard Weissman, called as a witness, having first been duly sworn by the notary public, testified as follows:
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Weissman, could you state your full name?
Mr.Weissman. Bernard Weissman.
Mr.Eisenberg. And your address?
Mr.Weissman. 439 South Columbus Avenue, Mount Vernon, N.Y.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Weissman, did you receive a copy of the rules governing this deposition?
Mr.Weissman. I did.
Mr.Eisenberg. Have you had an opportunity to study them?
Mr.Weissman. I have had an opportunity to study them.
Mr.Eisenberg. What is your occupation, Mr. Weissman?
Mr.Weissman. Salesman.
Mr.Eisenberg. How long have you lived at your present address?
Mr.Weissman. Presently or totally?
Mr.Eisenberg. Presently.
Mr.Weissman. About 1 year.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Weissman, I now hand you an advertisement beginning "Welcome, Mr. Kennedy," from the Dallas Morning News, Friday, November 22, 1963, which I will mark Weissman Exhibit No. 1.
(Excerpt from Dallas Morning News, Friday, November 22, 1963, marked Weissman Exhibit No. 1.)
Mr.Weissman. Might I interject at this point that since I don't have the advice of counsel, that I reserve the right to refuse to answer any question that I feel may not be in my best interests at the moment?
Mr.Eisenberg. Certainly. Now, under the rules, of course, you are entitled to counsel, and if you wish we can adjourn this deposition so that you can get counsel.
Mr.Weissman. Well, I have tried to get counsel, and I frankly can't afford it, and the counsel I could afford wouldn't take the case.
Mr.Eisenberg. I see. Well, would you wish us to try to make arrangements for a court-appointed counsel?
Mr.Weissman. This would be entirely up to you. I should think possibly that if I can see my way clear to answer your more pertinent questions—in other words, to your satisfaction—it might not be necessary. Otherwise, we can do this some other time.
Mr.Eisenberg. Well, it is entirely up to you. Now, we can adjourn if you want or we can continue and see whether the questions are pertinent in your mind or not.
Mr.Weissman. I would rather continue and to avoid repeating this again, taking time out.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Weissman, I hand you this advertisement which I have labeled Weissman Exhibit No. 1, and ask you whether you are familiar with this advertisement?
Mr.Weissman. Yes; I am.
Mr.Eisenberg. Are you the Bernard Weissman whose name appears at the bottom of this advertisement, as chairman?
Mr.Weissman. Yes.
Mr.Eisenberg. Mr. Weissman, could you tell us how this advertisement came to be composed?
Mr.Weissman. It is rather simple. A group of individuals in Dallas, friends of mine, got together and decided to express our feeling about the domestic and foreign policy of the Kennedy administration, and we felt that picketing, anything of the nature of picketing, and so forth, wouldn't go, since the Stevenson incident. We decided that the best way to get our point across would be to run an ad.
Mr.Eisenberg. When was this decision made?
Mr.Weissman. The decision was made approximately a week or so before Kennedy's arrival in Dallas.
Mr.Eisenberg. That would be approximately November 15, 1963?
Mr.Weissman. Approximately; a few days more, a few days less, in there.
Mr.Eisenberg. Who were the individuals who participated in this decision?
Mr.Weissman. Larry Schmidt, Bill Burley, myself, and one or two other individuals who I would rather not mention.
Mr.Eisenberg. Can you state the reasons why you don't want to mention these individuals, Mr. Weissman?
Mr.Weissman. Yes. As a matter of fact, it is not that I doubt your sincerity, personally, it is just that I doubt that—or it is my feeling that there are several members of the Commission that might use, if I implicate any individuals or organizations other than the ones I have mentioned, that this may be used as a political weapon later this year and the coming years, and I feel that what with very comprehensive FBI reports and the report I have given to the FBI myself, and the Secret Service, that any loose parts that are left out right now can be pieced together if you desire to do it, from their reports, very simply and very easily.
The reason I don't have the confidence I should have, not in the Commission itself, but in some of the counsel to the Commission, for example, Norman Redlich, if even 5 percent of what I hear about the individual is true, I don't want to have this man in a position to hurt anybody who has been or is an associate of mine.
Mr.Eisenberg. Well, Mr. Weissman, the subject of this deposition, of course, is the advertisement, and it is crucial to that question who composed the ad and who was instrumental in its placement in the newspaper. Now, you are not represented by counsel, and I don't want to press you to answer a question in the absence of representation by counsel. However, since this is the very subject with which the deposition is concerned, I think that if you don't want to answer that question we should stand adjourned until you can obtain counsel, and I will attempt to get a court-appointed counsel for you, if you can't get counsel yourself. If you wish, and we can hold a recess while you think it over.
Mr.Weissman. Call a recess for a few minutes.
(Recess.)
Mr.Weissman. What is your opinion here now? Let me put it to you that way.
Mr.Eisenberg. I think that if there is any question in your mind at all as to what questions you should answer, that you should get a lawyer.
Mr.Weissman. This is what I am going to do. I am going to read you, it looks like about three or four pages, typewritten pages, I will read it into the record.
It will tell the story why I came to Dallas, exactly what I and several of my associates wished to accomplish.
I will name them where necessary and when I am finished I will let this stand as my complete testimony, period, finis, and if at any other time the Commission wants to talk with me, they will have to subpena me and at that time—I want to get it over once and for all.
I am going to tell my story now as to why I did things I have done, how it came about, how the ad happened to fit into this pattern, and it will be all very simple and logical.
Mr.Eisenberg. Go ahead. You understand that when I say to go ahead I don't mean that we will not be asking further questions, but you are certainly welcome to put this in.
Mr.Weissman. I understand. Our preparation to come to Dallas was madeapproximately——
Mr.Eisenberg. Excuse me 1 second, Mr. Weissman. I want you to be very sure that before you enter this statement in the record you shouldn't consult an attorney?
(Witness indicates.)
Mr.Eisenberg. You are gesturing "no"?
Mr.Weissman. I am gesturing "No"; that is right. About 3 years ago in Munich, Germany, while I was in the service, I and several friends joined or formed a conservative political organization, dedicated to a conservative philosophy, and I am going to read what you might call the constitution or the aims of that organization.
This was originally written by Larry Schmidt, who originally founded the organization, which is known as CUSA, or Conservatism, U.S.A., and this particularcopy was prepared for the recruitment of new members and what was expected of them.
It also applies to the members of what we call ourselves, the council. The council originally consisted of myself, of Larry Schmidt, of Bill Burley, of a Larry Jones, who is no longer associated in any way with us, of Norman Baker, who is no longer associated in any way with us, James Mosley, who is no longer associated in any way with us.
How was CUSA organized? CUSA, with its headquarters in Dallas, No. 5417 Louis Street, is broken down into two branches. The stateside branch, which was headed by Larry Schmidt, and the overseas branch, which was headed by myself.