The testimony of Edith Whitworth was taken at 5 p.m., on July 22, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you stand and take the oath, please?
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mrs.Whitworth. I do.
Mr.Liebeler. My name is Wesley J. Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it by Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and by joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
Under the Commission's rules relating to the taking of testimony by the Commission, you are entitled to have an attorney present at this or any other hearing at which you may appear before the Commission and you are entitled to 3-days' notice of your appearance here. You are also entitled to exercise the usual privileges with regard to self incrimination and so forth as far as not answering questions is concerned. I assume that since you are here without an attorney, that you do not wish to have your attorney present at the session. In fact, very few witnesses do have their attorneys present. Am I correct in that understanding?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I assume that—I don't see any use of me having one.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you state your name for the record?
Mrs.Whitworth. My name is Edith Whitworth.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live?
Mrs.Whitworth. I live at 315 South Jefferson, Irving, Tex.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are married; is that correct?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How many children do you have?
Mrs.Whitworth. I have two.
Mr.Liebeler. Approximately how old are they?
Mrs.Whitworth. My daughter is 24 years old and my son 19 years old.
Mr.Liebeler. When were they born?
Mrs.Whitworth. My daughter was born May 13, 1940, and my son was born May 20, 1945.
Mr.Liebeler. Your daughter is also married, is she not?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; she is.
Mr.Liebeler. What is her married name?
Mrs.Whitworth. Her married name—her husband's name is Bobby Gene Hollaway, and her name is Joyce.
Mr.Liebeler. It's spelled [spelling] H-o-l-l-a-w-a-y, is that correct?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Do they have any children?
Mrs.Whitworth. They have two children.
Mr.Liebeler. How old are they, and when were they born?
Mrs.Whitworth. The first one—Bryan will be 3 years old the 20th of October, I think I'm right on that; and the other one was born the 10th day of last October—he will be 1 year old.
Mr.Liebeler. The youngest one was born when?
Mrs.Whitworth. Wait—I said the 20th of October—I believe that oldest one is the 28th of October—I am sorry.
Mr.Liebeler. What is the name of the older child?
Mrs.Whitworth. Bryan Douglas.
Mr.Liebeler. You say he was born on what date?
Mrs.Whitworth. I believe it was October 28.
Mr.Liebeler. What year?
Mrs.Whitworth. And he will be 3 years old this October—he was 2 last year—that will be 1961, wouldn't it?
Mr.Liebeler. The other child's name is what?
Mrs.Whitworth. Jeffery Lynn. He was born October 10, 1963. You got me on those birthdays—I have forgotten them. I believe October 28 is right—I'm not just real sure.
Mr.Liebeler. It is my understanding that you formerly operated a used furniture store in Irving, Tex.; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; I did until about the 25th day of January of this year.
Mr.Liebeler. What was the name of that store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Furniture Mart.
Mr.Liebeler. Where was it located?
Mrs.Whitworth. 149 East Irving Boulevard.
Mr.Liebeler. Irving Boulevard runs east and west, does it not?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it does.
Mr.Liebeler. Which side of the street is the furniture store on?
Mrs.Whitworth. That would be on the right-hand side going west.
Mr.Liebeler. Going away from Dallas or toward Dallas?
Mrs.Whitworth. Going west.
Mr.Liebeler. That would be the north side?
Mrs.Whitworth. The north side; yes.
Mr.Liebeler. The FBI has advised us that you have told them that some time during 1963, you believe that Lee Harvey Oswald was in your furniture store; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it is.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you tell me all the circumstances surrounding that event, to the best of your recollection?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, as far as the date, I couldn't, you know, say that it was any day—any special day, but it was along the first of November. We had, you know, a discussion about the babies—that's the reason you have that there about my baby—my grandchildren, and their children. They had the baby with them at that time. We had at one time had a gun shop in there. We had a gunsmith sign out in front and I presume he had came up and saw that sign there and he stopped and came in. We have two doors in this place of business—one was on the west side and the west end, and one on the east end. He hadpulled up there at the front as well as I remember and he walked around his car and came into the west door.
Mr.Liebeler. You saw him drive up in the car?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; because it was all glass in front and I was sitting at the—well, it's the cash stand—we call it there.
Mr.Liebeler. Which direction was he driving the car at that time?
Mrs.Whitworth. He was driving west on a one-way street—that's a one way there.
Mr.Liebeler. Running from east to west?
Mrs.Whitworth. East to west.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of a car did he have, Mrs. Whitworth?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, as far as I can remember—I wouldn't be—I wouldn't say for sure. All I can say is that I believe, you know, not paying a lot of attention to the car and the car not meaning anything at that time, that it was a two-tone blue and white. It was either a Ford or a Plymouth. Now, I wouldn't swear to that, but it was either one—the car didn't mean anything to me at that time. Anyway, he came in and hestood——
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you some questions about the car first—how many people were in the car when you saw it drive up?
Mrs.Whitworth. I didn't pay any attention to it—just really when it drove up out there. When I did pay attention to it was when he got back in it, you know, and it was faintly, you know. As to them getting back in it, I wouldn't say that there was anyone else in it—I wouldn't say that they were the only ones that was in it. They were the only ones that come in the store.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you notice specifically that Oswald was driving?
Mrs.Whitworth. I wouldn't say that he was, and I wouldn't say that he drove off in the car. I wouldn't say that, because, like I say, it didn't mean anything to me at that time, just faintly, I would say that that car was blue and white, two-tone, and that it was either a Ford or a Plymouth—now, I wouldn't swear to that.
Mr.Liebeler. So, he drove up in front of the store and he got out of the car and came in—which door—did he come in?
Mrs.Whitworth. He came in the west door.
Mr.Liebeler. He came in the west door?
Mrs.Whitworth. West door; he came in and he stood right in front of me there, and I arose up out of my chair and asked him, you know, if I could help him and he asked for something for a gun, and he had whatever this was wrapped up and it was about so long, as well as I can remember, not paying too much attention to it at that time, but we didn't have the gunshop in there then. It had gone out of business and I told him, no, I didn't have anything there, and whatever he was looking for—that I didn't have it.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, when you say, "so long," you held your hands up and how many inches was that—would you hold your hands up again?
Mrs.Whitworth[indicating]. I would say it was about like that.
Mr.Liebeler. How many inches do you think that is?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I would say about 15 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. About 15 inches?
Mrs.Whitworth. That's what I would say. You know, just judging it. It could have been longer and it could have been shorter, but it was wrapped up, I know that.
Mr.Liebeler. He didn't have occasion to open it up for you while he was in the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did he ask you about a specific part for it?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; he did. But I don't know what it was because I didn't pay any attention to it because it was something, you know, for a gun and I couldn't help him, so I didn't pay any attention to it, you know, because I never worked in a gunshop anyway and I know nothing about guns whatever.
Mr.Liebeler. How come he came into this used furniture shop looking for a gun part?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I had a sign—I mean, I had had a gun shop in there, a man had leased part of my store and he had a gunshop in there, one part of it, but he had been moved for quite a while, but the sign hadn't been taken down.
Mr.Liebeler. So, there was still a sign on the front of the building saying that there was a gunshop there?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Go ahead and tell me what are the other circumstances?
Mrs.Whitworth. And when I told him that I didn't have anything—I didn't have what he was looking for, but I probably told him where he could go get it. I don't remember that I did, but I usually would tell someone where they could go to get such a thing and he turned around and he looked and he realized, I guess, that it was a furniture store and he said, "You have furniture in here?" I said, "Yes, I do." He says, "I'm going to need some in a couple of weeks or so," and I said, "Well, I'll be glad to show you what I have." I had new and used furniture and he wanted bedroom furniture, he told me that, and he turned—he went back to the car and came back in and when he came back in his wife followed him in with the young baby and the little girl and we walked straight to the back of the building where I had the bedroom suites and I showed him the bedroom suites and I told him about the bedroom suites and I noticed that he would look over to her and she would never—she never uttered a word and I thought she didn't like what I had and was uninterested, because I didn't, you know, high pressure them to sell them.
Mr.Liebeler. Were they interested in new furniture or used furniture?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I never did get that far along to find out, you know, what they wanted, because she acted like she wasn't interested, you know, and I couldn't talk to him and he was the only one saying anything, and then we got talking about the babies.
Mr.Liebeler. What was that conversation about?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, we was comparing the birthdays of the children and my grandchildren had birthdays kind of similar to theirs, you know, and so it went even so far as to—I said, "Well, we wanted a little girl. We wanted one of ours to be a little girl." He said, he wanted one of his to be a little boy and just jokingly, I said, "Well, let's just swap then." And, he kind of smiled but she still didn't say anything, didn't even offer to show us the baby. We didn't know then, you know, that she couldn't even speak, or probably couldn't understand what we said, so she walked clear away from us and we walked back toward the front of the building there and she walked out ahead of him—the little girl was right in front of her, you know, and this was the older little girl, and they went on to the car and the little girl was kind of whining and at one time I thought—well, I'll offer her a piece of candy. I had candy in there, you know, but I never did, I never did offer them any candy and they went on off, but it was them just as sure as I'm sitting here—I'm sure it was him and her too.
Mr.Liebeler. In this conversation about the babies, did they tell you—did this man tell you when his little baby had been born?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it was 2 weeks old.
Mr.Liebeler. It was 2 weeks old at that time?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And he told you it was 2 weeks old?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you the date on which the baby was born?
Mrs.Whitworth. He probably did at that time, but I don't know—the date on that kind of corresponded with the date of the birthday of my oldest grandson there.
Mr.Liebeler. You have no recollection as to whether or not he told you the date or not; is that correct? Or you just don't remember the date—do you remember whether he told you or not?
Mrs.Whitworth. I'm sure that he told me. I just don't remember the date.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you by saying, "Well, the baby is 2 weeks old," or did he tell you specifically that the baby was born on such and such a date; do you remember?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I wouldn't swear to it, but I'm pretty sure he told me the date at that time but the baby was 2 weeks old and I judge that he would have been in the store around the 4th, 5th, or 6th of November, because we were fixing to go to a ball game, this lady and I, and I have a son that plays football for Irving High School and we were going on to the football game and that's how come this lady to be in there. You know, we were planning to go together or get tickets to the football game and it had to be along in there—the first week in November.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, do you remember a specific football game that you were going to see; is that how you fixed the date as early in November?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you tell us what ball game that would have been?
Mrs.Whitworth. It probably was Richland Hills that we were going to.
Mr.Liebeler. Richland Hills was going to play who?
Mrs.Whitworth. Irving, and we were going to Richland Hills—that's a Fort Worth team.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you made any efforts, since this question came up, to find out the exact date on which the Richland Hills team played the Irving team, did you go back and look it up?
Mrs.Whitworth. I probably did at one time, but I couldn't tell you what the date was now, except that it was a Friday night. It was going to be on Friday and it was before that Friday. Now, Mrs. Hunter might be able to tell you that. I didn't go back and try to review anything before I come over here. At that time, you know, I knew what game it was, but I haven't reviewed it.
Mr.Liebeler. Did I understand you to say correctly that there was a friend of yours that was in the store at the time they were there?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. That was Mrs. Hunter?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; Mrs. Hunter.
Mr.Liebeler. Did I also understand you to say correctly that Mrs. Hunter was there for the purpose of getting tickets to go to the football game?
Mrs.Whitworth. We were planning a trip, you know, to this football game.
Mr.Liebeler. Does Mrs. Hunter ordinarily come into the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; she did—I had just begun to know her, you know, and it all come about through school doings and all, and I usually got her tickets or she got my tickets when we were going to travel to a game or so.
Mr.Liebeler. Can you fix a day of the week any more specifically than you have as to when this might have occurred?
Mrs.Whitworth. I couldn't—no; I couldn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Mrs. Hunter come in usually on a particular day or did she just come in from time to time?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, she said she did—for some reason why or other, but to me, I couldn't fix any certain day, you know, working in the public like I did and all that. I couldn't, you know, not meaning anything at that time—I couldn't put a date on it, you know, what day she come or anything. Usually, the tickets would go on sale on a Tuesday or Wednesday, if they were going to travel to play, and I have my tickets to the home games, you know, and she could say what day it was, but I couldn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Was this particular ball game going to be played at Richland Hills; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it was.
Mr.Liebeler. So you were talking about getting the tickets and were going on over to Richland Hills?
Mrs.Whitworth. To this game.
Mr.Liebeler. And you said Lee Oswald—the Oswalds were in your store on the weekend preceding the game?
Mrs.Whitworth. It wasn't the weekend.
Mr.Liebeler. During the week?
Mrs.Whitworth. During the week.
Mr.Liebeler. Right; during the week preceding the weekend on which Richland Hills played Irving.
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember being interviewed by two agents of the FBI about the middle of December on this whole question?
Mrs.Whitworth. On a Saturday; yes, sir.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; Saturday, December 14, 1963.
Mrs.Whitworth. I do remember; it was a Saturday that they came out.
Mr.Liebeler. And do you remember the names of the agents?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I don't. They were just two tall fellows and I don't even know the names—I didn't take them down and I didn't think it was that important.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember telling those two men specifically that when this man's wife came in, when Oswald's wife came in, that Oswald told you that his youngest child had been born on October 20, 1963?
Mrs.Whitworth. Probably so—somewhere, you know, it was along that time, but you know it has been so long now that I have forgotten the dates.
Mr.Liebeler. And do you remember telling the FBI agents specifically the date October 20, 1963?
Mrs.Whitworth. I believe so. Now, like I say, I wouldn't swear to that but if I told them, that's what he had told me. I haven't reviewed this, like I say, before I come over here, so I'm just telling you what I think absolutely is true—the truth.
Mr.Liebeler. Right; and I want to try and find the state of your recollection as to just what this man told you about the date of birth of this young child, and if you remember specifically that he told you that the child was born October 20, 1963, I want you to tell me that, and if you can't remember that, I want you just to say that and it is very important that you give me the exact state of your recollection on that.
Mrs.Whitworth. Now, I'm not going to say that I remember him telling me that because it has been too long ago, you know, it has been too long back to say it was October 20—like when I come over here and you asked me my grandson's birthday that I had forgotten and there is too much that goes through my mind in that length of time. We talked about it and I'm sure he told me the birthdays of the babies, but it has been too long now and I wouldn't say that he told me October 20, but the baby was 2 weeks old when he was in the store and it was the first week in November that he was in the store and I don't know what date that would have been that he was in the store.
Mr.Liebeler. Was there anybody else in the store besides you and Mrs. Hunter and this man Oswald and the wife and the two little children during this time?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I don't believe there was. There was someone out in front of the store, you know, there always was. I remember something about that, but I wouldn't swear that there was anyone out there in front, any particular person out in front, but there usually was two or three men that kind of hung around there because that was on the corner and had been the bus station and, you know, people just walk in and walk out there, you know, and they ask for information for first one thing and another, you know, in my store and I was always real good about giving them information and like I probably told him where he could go get the gun part he was looking for.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember whether you directed him to another gunshop or not?
Mrs.Whitworth. Just to be sure about it, I don't know now, but I'm just almost sure that I did if he asked me.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember where you told him to go?
Mrs.Whitworth. If I directed him, it would have been east of me, probably at the Irving Sports Shop or even down on the highway at some pawnshop or something like that.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know the man who owns the Irving Sports Shop?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; Woodrow Greener.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you known him?
Mrs.Whitworth. Oh, I have known Woodrow for about 20 years, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you a good friend of his or close to him at all?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I wouldn't say real close—I just knew him. He hadbeen in and out of business there for a number of years and I have lived in Irving all of my life, so I wouldn't say I was a real close friend to him—I just know him.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know a young man by the name of Dial Ryder?
Mrs.Whitworth. I didn't know Dial Ryder.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Ryder now; have you met him since that time?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I haven't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever discussed this series of events with Mr. Greener?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; I did discuss it with Mr. Greener over the telephone and Woodrow Greener was out of town. He said at that time he probably was, but he was gone deer hunting, you know, he hunts, and he and his wife were out of town at that time because we talked about it.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you talk to Mr. Greener about this; do you remember?
Mrs.Whitworth. When the FBI men came out there and talked to me on the Saturday.
Mr.Liebeler. On that same Saturday?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And you never had any discussion with Mr. Greener at any time about this at all prior to the time in November when the FBI talked to you; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. Not until the FBI talked to me, you know, I didn't talk to him or anything, but I called Woodrow on the telephone and told him and the FBI men were in his store at that time when I called him and that was the only time he told me, but I don't think I was even in town at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you read the newspaper, generally speaking?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Which newspapers do you read?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I take them all—I read them all. I take the Dallas Morning News and I take the Times Herald out of Dallas and then I have the Irving papers too and I read them all.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember that shortly after the assassination, around Thanksgiving time, as a matter of fact, there was a story in the Dallas Times Herald to the effect that Oswald had had some work done on his rifle in the Irving Sports Shop?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; I read that and I also saw it on television.
Mr.Liebeler. When you saw that, it was also reported on television; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it sure did. As well as I can remember it, it showed this Ryder, or whatever his name was, working around there and talking to the men.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was the first person you ever discussed Oswald's presence in your store with?
Mrs.Whitworth. I never discussed it until I saw him on television and also his wife. First, when I saw him on television I told my husband, but my husband didn't work in the store, then, he worked at another furniture store on down on the east end of the road, you know, and I told him, I said, "Why, I have seen the fellow somewhere before," and it didn't dawn on me at that minute where. He says, "Well, you have probably seen him in the store." Just like that. I mean, anybody would come through Irving and be looking for anything like that would more than likely stop in my store quicker than they would any other place.
Mr.Liebeler. Looking for furniture, you mean?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, if he was looking for a gun or anything like that he would stop in there because this sign was a real good sign, you know, it was and out there, and also it was a good furniture location. So he said "You probably have," and we didn't discuss it any more until we saw her on television, Mrs. Oswald, and she was leaving the jail or something, with her mother-in-law and had these two babies. I said, "Oh, yes, I remember them real well," and I discussed it again with him and I told him about this and I said that those kids are about the age of Bryan and Jeff and we discussed it again and then I knew definitely he had been in there and I knew that he was the fellow that I talked to, and I said, "Well, he seemed to be such a nice man." He eventhanked me for my time when he walked out—you know, he thanked me for the time I had spent with him, more so than anyone else. I mean, very few people will thank anyone for their time in a store like that, you know, but he did. He thanked me for his time.
Mr.Liebeler. Isn't it a fact that a newspaper reporter came into your store one day and talked to you about this?
Mrs.Whitworth. A lady.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that?
Mrs.Whitworth. She was before the FBI men came and talked to me and I don't have her name, but one of the FBI men called me and asked me if I remembered her name and I don't. The only thing, she came in a little foreign car and another gentleman was driving the car for her and she showed me her credentials, just who she was, and she told me she was a White House correspondent.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you remember her name if I suggested it to you?
Mrs.Whitworth. I don't know whether I would or not.
Mr.Liebeler. How about Coleman, does that seem familiar to you?
Mrs.Whitworth. Might have been.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember when she came by, was that after you had seen Ryder on television telling about Oswald?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; that was before.
Mr.Liebeler. It was before?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; it was before.
Mr.Liebeler. And did you tell this lady reporter the same story you told us—exactly?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; and she took it down at that time and this gentleman that was with her, he had a tape recorder and he took down everything that I said.
Mr.Liebeler. They took it down on a tape recorder?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; he sure did, and she wrote it down in a little notebook, you know, but she accidentally stopped in the store. I had never told anyone, you know, had ever made the statement to anybody that he was in there. Of course, it was discussed, I'm sure, to people that I knew, you know, I said, "Well, I had seen him," but there are a lot of people in Irving I'm sure that had seen him and his wife both.
Mr.Liebeler. Did it occur to you after you became aware of the fact that Oswald had been in your store asking for some repairs about a gun that you should call the FBI or the Dallas Police Department and tell them about this?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; it really didn't. I just figured I would wait and see if anybody got to looking for him. I didn't contact anyone. I waited until they contacted me. I didn't know where I could be any help to them at all.
Mr.Liebeler. So, the Oswalds walked out of the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And then you said Mrs. Oswald, I believe, and the children went out first; is that right?
Mrs.Whitworth. They were ahead of him.
Mr.Liebeler. How long was Oswald in the store—how long did he stay in the store after they left?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, he followed them right on out, but they were in line. She started out before he did, with the children, and the little girl—the little 2-year-old, you know, was ahead of all of them and I had a little stepoff there and the mother kind of waited until she stepped off of that, but Oswald himself never did help her with the children or anything like that while she was in the store, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. And during the time they were in the store she didn't say one word?
Mrs.Whitworth. She never uttered one word that I knew about. I caught him at one time looking at her and I kind of felt like they were exchanging glances or something like that, you know, but she never uttered one word, either whether she liked it or whether she didn't like it, and I made the remark after they left, after we talked about trading the children, you know, jokingly, andI said to Mrs. Hunter, "Well, I don't think she liked what I said about trading those children," and she didn't offer to show us the baby.
Mr.Liebeler. You made quite a fuss over the children, I presume?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; I am a great hand to notice children. I just really am, you know, and I always felt like it was one way to get in touch with the customer—is to brag on the children, you know. The closer you get to them the better off you are when you are trying to sell them something, and really, I was, you know, interested in selling him furniture when he told me he needed it.
Mr.Liebeler. How about this little 3-year-old girl, did she seem to be an ordinarily developed girl—-she could walk around and everything?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; she was pretty.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she say anything at all?
Mrs.Whitworth. She mumbled—as she went out of the store she was about halfway crying, not really crying, but mumbling something. I couldn't understand her or anything, and that's the reason that at one time I thought—well, I'll hand her a piece of candy, but then I didn't because a lot of people don't like you to give their children candy and the woman hadn't been friendly enough with me to make me really want to, but I really would have liked to have given the little girl some candy. She was a beautiful little child.
Mr.Liebeler. Did the little girl say anything you could understand at all?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; she just kind of whined like, you know, it might have been that she was a little cowed or something—I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, as they walked out of the store, did you see them get in the car?
Mrs.Whitworth. I probably did, but I didn't pay much attention to them—to remember how they did—I didn't—it was just like anybody else walking out of the store, you know, I didn't see them get in the car. I'm sure they got in a car and I just faintly remember that maybe that that car was a two-tone car and that they got in there and drove off and like I say, I don't know how they got into the car, because I didn't pay too much attention to them.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see where they went when they got in the car?
Mrs.Whitworth. I didn't pay too much attention. Mrs. Hunter said they went back the wrong way down the street.
Mr.Liebeler. But you didn't see that?
Mrs.Whitworth. I probably saw it but I didn't—I wouldn't say that they did because I don't know. So many people pull that stunt anyway and it was just everyday, you know, people make mistakes on that street all the time about going the wrong way and I had seen numbers of them going the wrong way and if they did go, the wrong way, you know, I don't remember it.
Mr.Liebeler. It wasn't such an extraordinary thing to have that happen?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; but what was, you know, out of the ordinary person—not talking. I'm friendly—I'm just a real friendly person and going on over the babies—I would have liked to have looked at the baby and all. That was what stuck with me more than anything else, you know, the way she acted and him too. He was nothing out of the ordinary except that he thanked me for his time, you know, that he had taken, and I suggested furniture to him and tried to find out what kind they were looking for and they weren't quite ready for it and it was going to be a couple of weeks before they moved out and he told me that they were living in an apartment.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he tell you about that?
Mrs.Whitworth. I asked him. So many people would come in the store, you know, to buy furniture you know, and try to get it as cheap as they could because they were living in a furnished apartment, so I usually asked them if they were in apartments or something, and he told me they were and I know they wanted bedroom furniture, because I took them back there and showed them bedroom furniture. They also had to have living room furniture and I asked him what type of furniture and I said, "So many people are using Early American or Danish Modern." I mean, young people were using a lot of that Danish Modern and I couldn't get anything out of her even after suggesting that and I thought if I suggested that that they would tell me what they were looking for, but I never did find out.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he say where they lived?
Mrs.Whitworth. No.
Mr.Liebeler. But he said they were living in an apartment?
Mrs.Whitworth. They were living in an apartment—yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, did you hear subsequent to that time on television that Oswald and his wife weren't living together?
Mrs.Whitworth. I heard, yes; you know—after the assassination, I mean, but even at that time I never asked him his name or anything like that. If I had carried out what I usually do, I would have gotten his name, because if they are looking for anything that I don't have—didn't have in the store, I would suggest that they let me give them a card, you know, to go to the wholesale house. Had I given them a card to the wholesale house, he would have had to give me his name. You see, I didn't get that far along on it. I mean, you know, and I just didn't—I wished I had now, but she sure was with him, whether she knew where she was going or what she was doing or anything, but she certainly was with him. Even, you know, her dress and all—as far as telling you what color she had on—I could tell you just about how she was dressed. She looked clean but she looked like she was a person that had gotten in the car to come up to town for something and she probably come out of the house with just the dress she had on and a short coat, and the little girl had on some kind of a short coat. It wasn't really cold—it wasn't real cold then and he had on slacks. He didn't have on what I call really work clothes—he wasn't dressed—but he had on a pair of slacks.
Mr.Liebeler. What kind of shirt did he have on?
Mrs.Whitworth. It was a sport coat, I think, with the collar turned back and he had on a sweater, you know, deal. They weren't dressed, you know, really dressed, but they were dressed good enough to go out, you know, to kind of casual shop or something like that—that kind of shopping.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you absolutely sure that they drove up at first in an automobile and that they went back out and got into an automobile and drove away?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; they did.
Mr.Liebeler. The report that I have of the interview you had with the FBI agents in December indicates that you told them that they went out of the store and got into the car and made aU-turn and drove off east down Irving Boulevard.
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember telling them that?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, where I got that—I wouldn't swear that they really went down, you know, turned their car there—Mrs. Hunter told me that they did, you know, and kind of reviewed me at that time, but so many people did that anyway that they went back down the wrong way.
It has been so long now I have, you know, really forgotten whether they did or not, but you know, the color of the car and the make of the car stands out more to me than anything. There was only one correct way for them to go and that was west.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't at any time see anybody else with them?
Mrs.Whitworth. I wouldn't swear to it.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't see anybody?
Mrs.Whitworth. I didn't see anyone—no. They didn't get out of the car, let me put it that way.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see the car close enough at any time to see whether there was anybody else sitting in the car?
Mrs.Whitworth. I could have seen it, but I didn't pay any attention to it. They could have had a driver—I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. You are sure it wasn't a station wagon that was sitting out there?
Mrs.Whitworth. I'm not sure—I'm really not, but it does not seem like it was. Had I known all this was coming up I would have took it all down, but you know, people—when you are in business, you don't pay a lot of attention to that, but there are incidents that happen that will, you know, be clear in your mind.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you a picture that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and I ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs.Whitworth. I don't—no; I don't.
Mr.Liebeler. I show you another photograph that has been marked Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs.Whitworth. I don't know this one either.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't recognize anybody in there either?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; not as far as I see it.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, what about Bringuier Exhibit No. 1, do you see anybody in there that looks familiar?
Mrs.Whitworth. I couldn't identify anyone in there.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, what about Garner Exhibit No. 1, does that person look familiar to you?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; he does.
Mr.Liebeler. That one does?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And is that the same man that came in the store that day?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; he looked younger in the store than he does there. Of course, there's the shadow that's on him there that causes him to look that way, but he does.
Mr.Liebeler. Does that look like the man that came in the store—do you have any doubt about it?
Mrs.Whitworth. I don't have a doubt in the world but what it wasn't him.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I will show you this one—Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-C.
Mrs.Whitworth. Now, that looks more like him—he was more pleasant looking in the store than he is in these pictures here.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I show you a picture that has been marked Commission Exhibit No. 171, and ask you if you recognize anybody in that picture?
Mrs.Whitworth. Huh.
Mr.Liebeler. Who do you recognize there?
Mrs.Whitworth. Mrs. Oswald is there, I mean, his wife.
Mr.Liebeler. And you think that's the woman that was in the store that day?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; but of course she's not dressed there like she was, but that's her and that's the little girl and the little girl wasn't dressed like that either.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, I will show you a photograph marked Commission Exhibit No. 177 and I ask you if you recognize anybody in there?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, that's his wife there, isn't it?
Mr.Liebeler. Does that look like the woman that was in the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; she was attractive even then, I mean, she was a pretty girl then, of course, when she came in the store she wore her hair just right back and had it in a pony tail back that way.
Mr.Liebeler. Did she have short hair or long hair?
Mrs.Whitworth. She had long hair and had enough that she could tie it back here.
Mr.Liebeler. What about that man sitting in the middle there of Commission Exhibit No. 177, does he look familiar to you?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, yes; he kind of resembles him—yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Does that look something like the man that was in the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; the one sitting there with her?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; here is another picture that has been marked as Commission Exhibit No. 172, and I ask you if you recognize any of the people in that picture?
Mrs.Whitworth. That's Mrs. Oswald there.
Mr.Liebeler. What about the man? Does that man look like the man that was there in the store?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, it resembles him. Of course, if I could see him right in the face, you know, like I looked at him—the features are—-like him.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; and in Exhibit No. 177, of course, he does present a full face.
Mrs.Whitworth. That looks more like him there, you know, it really does.
Mr.Liebeler. Now, Mrs. Whitworth, the testimony that you have given to us about this event is of considerable importance to the Commission for many reasons that are not, I'm sure, even clear to you at the moment.
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Would you be willing to come back again on Friday morning and meet with Marina Oswald and the children to see if those really were the people that were in your store?
Mrs.Whitworth. This Friday morning?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mrs.Whitworth. I like you to put it up early enough—I go to work at 12 on Friday and if you would make it real early, and I have another appointment real early Friday morning that I could put off, I guess, or maybe do it in the morning. I have an appointment to get my hair fixed on Friday and I have that every Friday morning and I go to work at 12 and I would like for this not to interfere any more than is possible, you know, with my job. I work for J. C. Penney's there in Plymouth Park and they are real nice. They have given me time off because they had to, you know, but I would rather it not interfere with that.
Mr.Liebeler. What time would be convenient for you on Friday morning—about 9 o'clock?
Mrs.Whitworth. I would like to meet with her—that would be all right. Really, I would like to meet with her one time, you know, to—of course, I have only seen her on television and I saw her there at the store and I would like for her to tell me that she went into that store. I believe she would if she's telling what she did—she might not recognize me now, you know, out of the store, but I believe that woman would tell you that she went in that store if she saw that store. I believe she would—that little girl, the oldest one, isn't she a dark headed girl, and at that time she wore—she had her bangs cut.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't know; I have never seen the little girl.
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, she was real attractive and I am attracted to little girls, you know, I just love them. Of course, I love little boys, too, you understand, because I've got one of them, but little girls—mine—I used to sew for them and I have always wanted another little girl and I always made over little girls more so than I did little boys, that that little girl, as well as I remember, she had straight hair and she had little bangs in the front and she was just a real cute child, but I would really like to meet with them again and I would like for her to tell me that she went in that store. She would remember it; I'm sure that she would remember it. There isn't any doubt in my mind but that she wasn't in there and him too.
Mr.Liebeler. Then, we will meet with you again at 9 o'clock on Friday morning.
Mrs.Whitworth. All right.
Mr.Liebeler. By the way, how long would you say that the husband and wife were in the store from the time that they came back in the second time?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, 30 or 40 minutes—maybe.
Mr.Liebeler. That was during the time that they were looking at furniture?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes; she didn't come in, now, until he went back to the car.
Mr.Liebeler. My question is: From the time that he went back out and she came in, how long were the two of them in the store together?
Mrs.Whitworth. I'd say 30 or 40 minutes, which is a long time.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; and did she seem interested in any of the furniture—what did she do during this 30 or 40 minute period?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, she walked back where we were and I had moved some beds to show her, pulling them around and showing them to her, and as well as I remember, I had a little red maple suite back there and I had some dark walnut suites and I was showing them used furniture because they looked like people that would buy used furniture and she stood there and looked and, like I say, the little girl was whining around and I would see him exchange glances at her, you know, kind of look up and down but I never did see her—I never did catch her but I thought they were exchanging glances at one another and she was not interested and she walked back up and around in the other part of the store and I stayed back there and I talked to him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you have the feeling that there was any hostility between these two people that they weren't getting along too well?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, she just didn't say anything. She wasn't interestedin what he was looking at, didn't look to be, you know, and if they were—well—I just don't know, or I would say that there was any misunderstanding—there wasn't any smiles and there wasn't any jokes and neither one of them exchanged smiles. It wouldn't be like if I was going out shopping and my husband was going to buy something for me. I believe I would be more pleasant, but you know, I guess she just didn't know what he was talking about, but we were looking at furniture and I believe he went back to the car and told her to get out.
Mr.Liebeler. She just didn't seem to be very interested in that furniture?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; she didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever had any other occasion in the entire time you have been running a furniture store, when a man and a wife came in and spent 30 or 40 minutes looking at furniture in a store and they never exchanged one single word between each other?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; not one single word.
Mr.Liebeler. That just almost defies ordinary human experience; doesn't it?
Mrs.Whitworth. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Wouldn't you say that—usually?
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I never had anything like that. They usually agree or disagree and they usually exchange a few words.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; they usually exchange a few words.
Mrs.Whitworth. No; I never had an occasion like that—that's the reason it stood out to me like that more than anything else. I have waited on a lot of people in 10 years and I have had an awful lot of people come in my store. Some of them I would recognize and some of them I wouldn't, but that incident just stood out and after all of this—you just knew it was them.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it refresh your recollection if I suggested that Oswald, or this man that came into the store, was looking for a plunger—did he tell you what he was looking for, that he was looking for a plunger?
Mrs.Whitworth. It might have been a plunger. Like I say, I don't know a thing in the world about guns. It could have been a plunger. We have discussed that since then and I have never said what it was that he was looking for—whatever he had—he had in his hands. I mean, he had something in his hand.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you standing in the store when he walked out and they got in the car?
Mrs.Whitworth. I believe I walked back up to where my cash—in my cash stand and it hit me about right here and I could lean on it and my candy stand—I would have had to walk around another bar to have gotten to the candy because I couldn't reach over and get it and I was standing right like this and I was looking down on them and this bar hit me about right here [indicating].
Mr.Liebeler. About waist high?
Mrs.Whitworth. And I couldn't have went inside unless I had turned and walked back around and that's as far as I got—was the cash register.
Mr.Liebeler. Could you see the car from where you were standing?
Mrs.Whitworth. I could have.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you actually see it drive east down Irving Boulevard against the traffic?
Mrs.Whitworth. I wouldn't say that I did see it drive east—I don't believe—we talked about it.
Mr.Liebeler. Who did?
Mrs.Whitworth. Well, I might have made a statement one time about that, but right now, I wouldn't say he did. There's too many cars that drove up there that did go the wrong way, but I would say it was a blue and white car and I have always said that it was a Ford or Plymouth—it was something with fins on it.
Mr.Liebeler. You say we discussed it—what do you mean by that—who is "we"?
Mrs.Whitworth. Mrs. Hunter and I, you know, now as far as going back down the wrong way on that street—I wouldn't swear that the man did and I don't think that I ever made the statement that he drove off, because I don't know that he did.
Mr.Liebeler. I quote the FBI report of your interview on December 14, 1963:"On leaving the Furniture Mart (second hand furniture store) the Oswalds made aU-turn and left driving against traffic on East Irving Boulevard in the direction of a gun repair shop in either a 1956 or 1957 two-tone blue and white Ford or Plymouth." Do you remember telling the agents that?
Mrs.Whitworth. I probably did and it might be fresher in my mind at that time that they did go, but right now—I have talked with Mrs. Hunter so much, that she was the one actually that said that they went on the one way street the wrong way. Now, I might have said it at that time, but right now, you know, it has been a good while since that happened and not ever thinking anything would come of it—that I could be more specific on what happened on the inside of the store than what happened on the outside, because things like that happen every day, you know, I mean on the outside, but no two people ever come in there and acted like that for that length of time, you know, that I'm not going to swear that he went the wrong way and I'm not going to say that he drove that car off from there. Like I say, it wasn't that important to me to know that at that time because I didn't know I was going to have to—if I had—I would have been more specific about it, but I was in a position where I could have seen it, but we remarked after he left about what I had said and I got no comment about it from her, you know.
Mr.Liebeler. All right, thank you very much and we will see you Friday morning.
Mrs.Whitworth. All right.