Mr.Andrews. Right. My office was rifled shortly after I got out of the hospital, and I talked with the FBI people. We couldn't find anything prior to it. Whoever was kind enough to mess my office up, going through it, we haven't found anything since.
Mr.Liebeler. You have caused a thorough search to be made of your office for these records?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. You haven't been able to come up with anything?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did there come a time after the assassination when you had some further involvement with Oswald, or at least an apparent involvement with Oswald; as I understand it?
Mr.Andrews. No; nothing at all with Oswald. I was in Hotel Dieu, and the phone rang and a voice I recognized as Clay Bertrand asked me if I would go to Dallas and Houston—I think—Dallas, I guess, wherever it was that this boy was being held—and defend him. I told him I was sick in the hospital. If I couldn't go, I would find somebody that could go.
Mr.Liebeler. You told him you were sick in the hospital and what?
Mr.Andrews. That's where I was when the call came through. It came through the hospital switchboard. I said that I wasn't in shape enough to go to Dallas and defend him and I would see what I could do.
Mr.Liebeler. Now what can you tell us about this Clay Bertrand? You met him prior to that time?
Mr.Andrews. I had seen Clay Bertrand once some time ago, probably a couple of years. He's the one who calls in behalf of gay kids normally, either to obtain bond or parole for them. I would assume that he was the one that originally sent Oswald and the gay kids, these Mexicanos, to the office because I had never seen those people before at all. They were just walk-ins.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that you think you saw Clay Bertrand some time about 2 years prior to the time you received this telephone call that you have just told us about?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; he is mostly a voice on the phone.
Mr.Liebeler. What day did you receive the telephone call from Clay Bertrand asking you to defend Oswald?
Mr.Andrews. I don't remember. It was a Friday or a Saturday.
Mr.Liebeler. Immediately following the assassination?
Mr.Andrews. I don't know about that. I didn't know. Yes; I did. I guess I did because I was—they told me I was squirrelly in the hospital.
Mr.Liebeler. You had pneumonia; is that right?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And as I understand it, you were under heavy sedation at that time in connection with your treatment for pneumonia?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; this is what happened: After I got the call, I called my secretary at her home and asked her if she had remembered Lee Harvey Oswald's file. Of course, she didn't remember, and I had to tell her about all the kooky kids. She thought we had a file in the office. I would assume that he would have called subsequent to this boy's arrest. I am pretty sure it was before the assassination. I don't know.
Mr.Liebeler. You don't mean before the assassination—don't you mean before Oswald had been shot? After the assassination and before Oswald had been shot?
Mr.Andrews. After Oswald's arrest and prior tohis——
Mr.Liebeler. His death?
Mr.Andrews. His death.
Mr.Liebeler. Now my recollection from reviewing reports from the FBI is that you first advised the FBI of this, telling them that you recall that Clay Bertrand had called you at some time between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening and spoke to you about this matter. Do you remember telling the FBI about that?
Mr.Andrews. I remember speaking with them. The exact words, I do not, but that's probably correct.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what time approximately that Clay Bertrand did call you?
Mr.Andrews. I will tell you: They feed around 4:30. By the time I got fed, it was about 5 o'clock. They picked the tray up. So that's about the right time. It's around that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Now you said that after Clay Bertrand called you, you called your secretary and asked her if she remembered the Oswald file; is that correct?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; she didn't remember Oswald at all. She knows that occasionally these people walk in and out of the office and she had remembered something, but nothing of any value.
Mr.Liebeler. And do you remember that after you got out of the hospital, you discussed with your secretary the telephone call that you made to her at home?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. And do you recall that she said that she remembered that you called her at approximately 4 o'clock on the afternoon of November 23, 1963?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now have you—let's take it one step further: Do you also recall the fact that your private investigator spent most of that afternoon with you in your hospital room?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; he was there.
Mr.Liebeler. He was there with you?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; Preston M. Davis.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember approximately what time he left?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Would it have been before you called your secretary or afterwards?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Before you called?
Mr.Andrews. No; after.
Mr.Liebeler. After you called your secretary?
Mr.Andrews. Let's see. He wasn't there when I made the phone call. Hewasn't there when Clay Bertrand called me, I am pretty sure, because he would have remembered it if I didn't.
Mr.Liebeler. You discussed it and he doesn't, in fact, remember that you received the telephone call from Clay Bertrand?
Mr.Andrews. He wasn't there. While he was there, we received no call from Clay Bertrand or no call concerning the office or business because I would have talked to him about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You say that he left before you called your secretary?
Mr.Andrews. I think he left around chow time, which, I think, is around 4 o'clock. I could be wrong.
Mr.Liebeler. Now after giving this time sequence that we have talked about here the consideration that I am sure you have after discussing it with the FBI, have you come up with any solution in your own mind to the apparent problems that exist here? That is to say, that your recollection is that you called your secretary after you received the call from Clay Bertrand and you called your secretary at 4 o'clock, which would indicate that you must have received the call from Clay Bertrand prior to 4 o'clock, but you did not receive the call from Mr. Bertrand while Mr. Davis was there, and he left at approximately 4 o'clock or shortly before you called your secretary, in addition to which, you first recall receiving the call from Clay Bertrand some time between 6 o'clock and 9 o'clock in the evening.
Mr.Andrews. Well, the time factor I can't help you with. It is impossible. But I feel this: I wouldn't have called my secretary—if I couldn't get her to verify it, I would tell you that I was smoking weed. You know, sailing out on cloud 9.
Mr.Liebeler. But, in fact, she did verify the fact that you did call her?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I often thought it was a nightmare or a dream, but it isn't. It's just that I can't place—other than what I told Regis Kennedy and John Rice, the exact time I can't help you on. But if it hadn't been for calling her and askingher——
Mr.Liebeler. To look up the Oswald file or if she remembered the Oswald file?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I would just say I have a pretty vivid imagination and let's just forget it. Anything other than the law practice—I would say that what Regis suspects is that I was full of that dope, but I normally take certain steps, and this is the way I would have done it is what I did. I called her. Had Davis been there when the call came in, Davis would have been told, and he would have left the hospital, went down to the office, and shook the office down for the file, and called me from there before he went home. I know it couldn't have come in while he was there. The only media of time that I can use is either medication or food. Of course, being fat, I like food. I wasn't much interested in food. They weren't feeding me too much, and I am pretty sure it was after medication and food and the tray had been picked up that the call came in.
Mr.Liebeler. Of course, they fed you more than once up there?
Mr.Andrews. They feed three times a day, but they don't feed you enough to keep a sparrow alive.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, in any event, you are not able to clarify for us the sequence of what happened?
Mr.Andrews. Well, the sequence of events had to be this: Davis spent Saturday afternoon with me. He probably left just before chow, and then I ate, and the phone call came in some time after chow. I am positive it wasn't as late as 9 o'clock. I think the latest it could have been is 6, but Miss Springer says I called her some time around 4, 4:30—I don't know which.
Mr.Liebeler. Miss Springer is your secretary?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now do you recall talking to an FBI agent, Regis L. Kennedy, and Carl L. Schlaeger on November 25?
Mr.Andrews. I don't remember—Kennedy, yes; Schlaeger, no. I don't even know if he was in the same room. I don't think I have even seen him, much less talk to him.
Mr.Liebeler. Kennedy was; yes?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. They usually go around in pairs?
Mr.Andrews. Well, they work in teams, so he's got to have been there.
Mr.Liebeler. Now Kennedy came and visited you at the hospital; is that correct?
Mr.Andrews. Right.
Mr.Liebeler.Now——
Mr.Andrews. I remember that pretty good because I called the Feebees, and the guy says to put the phone, you know, and nothing happened.
Mr.Liebeler. The Feebees?
Mr.Andrews. That's what we call the Federal guys. All of a sudden, like a big hurricane, here they come.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember telling him at that time that you thought that Clay Bertrand had come into the office with Oswald when Oswald had been in the office earlier last spring?
Mr.Andrews. No; I don't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Bertrand ever in the office with Oswald?
Mr.Andrews. Not that I remember.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you have a picture in your mind of this Clay Bertrand?
Mr.Andrews. Oh, I ran up on that rat about 6 weeks ago and he spooked, ran in the street. I would have beat him with a chain if I had caught him.
Mr.Liebeler. Let me ask you this: When I was down here in April, before I talked to you about this thing, and I was going to take your deposition at that time, but we didn't make arrangements, in your continuing discussions with the FBI, you finally came to the conclusion that Clay Bertrand was a figment of your imagination?
Mr.Andrews. That's what the Feebees put on. I know that the two Feebees are going to put these people on the street looking, and I can't find the guy, and I am not going to tie up all the agents on something that isn't that solid. I told them, "Write what you want, that I am nuts. I don't care." They were running on the time factor, and the hills were shook up plenty to get it, get it, get it. I couldn't give it to them. I have been playing cops and robbers with them. You can tell when the steam is on. They are on you like the plague. They never leave. They are like cancer. Eternal.
Mr.Liebeler. That was the description of the situation?
Mr.Andrews. It was my decision if they were to stay there. If I decide yes, they stay. If I decide no, they go. So I told them, "Close your file and go some place else." That's the real reason why it was done. I don't know what they wrote in the report, but that's the real reason.
Mr.Liebeler. Now subsequent to that time, however, you actually ran into Clay Bertrand in the street?
Mr.Andrews. About 6 weeks ago. I am trying to think of the name of this bar. That's where this rascal bums out. I was trying to get past him so I could get a nickel in the phone and call the Feebees or John Rice, but he saw me and spooked and ran. I haven't seen him since.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you talk to him that day?
Mr.Andrews. No; if I would have got close enough to talk to him, I would have grabbed him.
Mr.Liebeler. What does this guy look like?
Mr.Andrews. He is about 5 feet 8 inches. Got sandy hair, blue eyes, ruddy complexion. Must weigh about 165, 170, 175. He really took off, that rascal.
Mr.Liebeler. He recognized you?
Mr.Andrews. He had to because if he would have let me get to that phone and make the call, he would be in custody.
Mr.Liebeler. You wanted to get hold of this guy and make him available to the FBI for interview, or Mr. Rice of the Secret Service?
Mr.Andrews. What I wanted to do and should have done is crack him in the head with a bottle, but I figured I would be a good, law-abiding citizen and call them and let them grab him, but I made the biggest mistake of the century. I should have grabbed him right there. I probably will never find him again. He has been bugging me ever since this happened.
Mr.Liebeler. Now before you ran into Clay Bertrand in the street on this day, did you have a notion in your mind what he looked like?
Mr.Andrews. I had seen him before one time to recognize him.
Mr.Liebeler. When you saw him that day, he appeared to you as he had before when you recognized him?
Mr.Andrews. He hasn't changed any appearance, I don't think. Maybe a little fatter, maybe a little skinnier.
Mr.Liebeler. Now I have a rather lengthy report of an interview that Mr. Kennedy had with you on December 5, 1963, in which he reports you as stating that you had a mental picture of Clay Bertrand as being approximately 6 feet 1 inch to 6 feet 2 inches in height, brown hair, and well dressed.
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Now this description is different, at least in terms of height of the man, than the one you have just given us of Clay Bertrand.
Mr.Andrews. But, you know, I don't play Boy Scouts and measure them. I have only seen this fellow twice in my life. I don't think there is that much in the description. There may be some to some artist, but to me, there isn't that much difference. Might be for you all.
Mr.Liebeler. I think you said he was 5 feet 8 inches before.
Mr.Andrews. Well, I can't give you any better because this time I was looking for the fellow, he was sitting down. I am just estimating. You meet a guy 2 years ago, you meet him, period.
Mr.Liebeler. Which time was he sitting down?
Mr.Andrews. He was standing up first time.
Mr.Liebeler. I thought you met him on the street the second time whenyou——
Mr.Andrews. No, he was in a barroom.
Mr.Liebeler. He was sitting in a bar when you saw him 6 weeks ago?
Mr.Andrews. A table at the right-hand side. I go there every now and then spooking for him.
Mr.Liebeler. What's the name of the bar you saw him in that day, do you remember?
Mr.Andrews. Cosimo's, used to be. Little freaky joint.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, now, if you didn't see him standing up on thatday——
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. So that you didn't have any basis on which to change your mental picture of this man in regard to his height from the first one that you had?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. I am at a loss to understand why you told Agent Kennedy on December 5 that he was 6 feet 1 to 6 feet 2 and now you have told us that he was 5 feet 8 when at no time did you see the man standing up.
Mr.Andrews. Because, I guess, the first time—and I am guessingnow——
Mr.Liebeler. Is this fellow a homosexual, do you say?
Mr.Andrews. Bisexual. What they call a swinging cat.
Mr.Liebeler. And you haven't seen him at any time since that day?
Mr.Andrews. I haven't seen him since.
Mr.Liebeler. Now have you had your office searched for any records relating to Clay Bertrand?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you found anything?
Mr.Andrews. No; nothing.
Mr.Liebeler. Has this fellow Bertrand sent you business in the past?
Mr.Andrews. Prior to—I guess the last time would be February of 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. And mostly he refers, I think you said, these gay kids, is that right?
Mr.Andrews. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. In discussing this matter with your private detective, Mr. Davis, and Miss Springer, your secretary, have you asked them whether or not they have any recollection of ever having seen Oswald in the office?
Mr.Andrews. Davis does; Springer doesn't.
Mr.Liebeler. Davis does have a recollection?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; he recalls. He usually stays with me until about closing time. We review whatever he is doing, and he remembers them as a group.
Mr.Liebeler. So he was there then the first time they were there? The only time that he was with a group is the first time, is that right?
Mr.Andrews. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed with Miss Springer and Mr. Davis the whereabouts or any recollection they might have about Clay Bertrand?
Mr.Andrews. They weren't with me, I believe, at the time I knew Bertrand.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you discussed it with them?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; but they weren't employed by me at the time I knew him.
Mr.Liebeler. So they have no recollection of Bertrand?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. When Oswald came into your office, of course, he told you what his name was, didn't he?
Mr.Andrews. Lee Oswald. I don't know whether that's his name or not.
Mr.Liebeler. But that's what he told you?
Mr.Andrews. That's what he told me.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember discussing or mentioning his name to Davis at any time prior to November 23, 1963?
Mr.Andrews. What the procedure is—I am in a different office now than I was then, and it was a very small office, and they would come into it—well, what I would call my office—and they just had the reception room out in the front, and Davis would go out there, and on those matters, it's not a matter that he would be discussing, but probably some words passed as to the swishing and the characteristics that they had, but other than that in the business, unless something is assigned to him, he knows nothing in that office unless it is assigned to him.
Mr.Liebeler. So you say you probably did not mention Oswald's name to Davis?
Mr.Andrews. I probably did not, other than we commented on the group in general, but none of the business that was involved or any names.
Mr.Liebeler. Is it an extraordinary thing for a bunch of gay kids to come into your office like that, or did they come from time to time?
Mr.Andrews. Well, let's see. Last week there were six of them in there. Depends on how bad the police are rousing them. They shoo them in. My best customers are the police. They shoo them into the office. God bless the police.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever know a man by the name of Kerry Thornley as one of these gay kids?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Have you ever heard of Thornley?
Mr.Andrews. No; I represent them and that's about all there is to it. When they owe me money, I know where to go grab them, and that's about as far as if goes. Is he supposed to be down here?
Mr.Liebeler. Thornley?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I can find out if he ever made the scene here real easy.
Mr.Liebeler. No; he is not in New Orleans, I don't think, at the moment. When Oswald told you about his discharge, did he tell you what branch of the service he had been in?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you why he got discharged?
Mr.Andrews. No.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you what kind of a discharge he had?
Mr.Andrews. He told me he was dishonorably discharged. That's what I call a yellow sheet discharge. I told him I needed his serial number, the service he was in, the approximate time he got discharged, and, I think, $15 or $25, I forget which, and to take the service, his rate or rank, the serial number, and to write to the Adjutant General for the transcript of the proceedings that washed him out so that they could be examined and see if there was any method of reopening or reconsideration on the file.
Mr.Liebeler. But he did not tell you any of those things?
Mr.Andrews. No; he said he would come back, and he came back, but I still didn't get his serial number and I still didn't get the money.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember specifically that he stated he had a dishonorable discharge as opposed to some other kind of discharge? Do you have a specific recollection on that?
Mr.Andrews. We call them in the Navy, B.C.D.'s and I associated that. He never mentioned the specific type discharge. It was one that was other than honorable, as we would put it in the legal sense. I just assumed it was a B.C.D. if he was in the Marines or Navy. If he was in the Army, it's a yellow discharge.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he tell you if he was working at that time or if he had a job when he first came into your office?
Mr.Andrews. Never asked him.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he associate his other than honorable discharge with difficulty in obtaining employment?
Mr.Andrews. I just don't remember. He had a reason why he wanted it reopened. What, I don't recall. He had a reason. I don't recall. He mentioned a reason, but I don't recall. I was trying to remember where they were seated to see if that would help, but no.
Mr.Liebeler. Tell me approximately how tall Oswald was.
Mr.Andrews. Oh, about 5 feet 6 inches, 5 feet 7 inches, I guess.
Mr.Liebeler. And about how much did he weigh?
Mr.Andrews. About 135, 140.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions. Do you have anything else that you would like to add?
Mr.Andrews. I wish I could be more specific, that's all. This is my impression, for whatever it is worth, of Clay Bertrand: His connections with Oswald I don't know at all. I think he is a lawyer without a brief case. That's my opinion. He sends the kids different places. Whether this boy is associated with Lee Oswald or not, I don't know, but I would say, when I met him about 6 weeks ago when I ran up on him and he ran away from me, he could be running because he owes me money, or he could be running because they have been squeezing the quarter pretty good looking for him while I was in the hospital, and somebody might have passed the word he was hot and I was looking for him, but I have never been able to figure out the reason why he would call me, and the only other part of this thing that I understand, but apparently I haven't been able to communicate, is I called Monk Zelden on a Sunday at the N.O.A.C. and asked Monk if he would go over—be interested in a retainer and go over to Dallas and see about that boy. I thought I called Monk once. Monk says we talked twice. I don't remember the second. It's all one conversation with me. Only thing I do remember about it, while I was talking with Monk, he said, Don't worry about it. Your client just got shot. That was the end of the case. Even if he was a bona fide client, I never did get to him; somebody else got to him before I did. Other than that, that's the whole thing, but this boy Bertrand has been bugging me ever since. I will find him sooner or later.
Mr.Liebeler. Does Bertrand owe you money?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I ain't looking for him for that. I want to find out why he called me on behalf of this boy after the President was assassinated.
Mr.Liebeler. How come Bertrand owes you money?
Mr.Andrews. I have done him some legal work that he has failed to pay the office for.
Mr.Liebeler. When was that?
Mr.Andrews. That's in a period of years that I have—like you are Bertrand. You call up and ask me to go down and get Mr. X out. If Mr. X doesn't pay on those kinds of calls, Bertrand has a guarantee for the payment of appearance. One or two of these kids had skipped. I had to go pay the penalty, which was a lot of trouble.
Mr.Liebeler. You were going to hold Bertrand for that?
Mr.Andrews. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald appear to you to be gay?
Mr.Andrews. You can't tell. I couldn't say. He swang with the kids. He didn't swish, but birds of a feather flock together. I don't know any squares that run with them. They may go down to look.
Mr.Liebeler. When you say he didn't swish, what do you mean by that?
Mr.Andrews. He is not effeminate; his voice isn't squeaky; he didn't walk like or talk like a girl; he walks and talks like a man.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you notice anything about the way he walked? Was there anything striking about the way he carried himself?
Mr.Andrews. I never paid attention. I never watched him walk other than into and out of the office. There's nothing that would draw my attention to anything out of the ordinary, but I just assumed that he knew these people and was running with them. They had no reason to come. The three gay kids he was with, they were ostentatious. They were what we call swishers. You can just look at them. All they had to do was open their mouth. That was it. Walk, they can swing better than Sammy Kaye. They do real good. With those pronounced ones, you never know what the relationship is with anyone else with them, but I have no way of telling whether he is gay or not, other than he came in with what they call here queens. That's about it.
Mr.Liebeler. You have never seen any of these people since that first day they came into your office with Oswald, that first day and when you saw them down at the police station?
Mr.Andrews. The three queens? The three gay boys? No; I have never seen them.
Mr.Liebeler. There were just three of them?
Mr.Andrews. The Latin type. Mexicanos will crop their hair and a Latin won't, so I assume he is a Mex.
Mr.Liebeler. So altogether there were five of them that came into the office?
Mr.Andrews. Five. The only other thing that shook me to my toes—you have the other part—the Secret Service brought me some things. They don't have the complete photograph. They have another photograph with the two Realpey sisters. They are actually in the office, and that shook me down to my toes pretty good.
Mr.Liebeler[handing picture to witness]. The picture you refer to might be Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B. Is that the one?
Mr.Andrews. Yes, this is it. Victoria Realpey-Plaza and her sister Marguerite Realpey-Plaza, and I can't recall this young lady's name here at all [indicating].
Mr.Liebeler. You are pointing to the three women who arestanding——
Mr.Andrews. The one facing, standing as you look at it.
Mr.Liebeler. That's the one you can't identify?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I have her file in the office. Uncle is a warden at the Parish Prison here in New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. And you are referring to the three women that are standing at the right side of Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-B?
Mr.Andrews. The girl carrying the pocketbook.
Mr.Liebeler. That's the one whose name you can't remember at the moment?
Mr.Andrews. Right.
Mr.Liebeler. Now this little fellow standing on the far left side of the picture, have you ever seen him before? Is he one of those gay boys who were in the office?
Mr.Andrews. No; these were all Americanos, these boys. He may be, but he is Latin looking.
Mr.Liebeler. He looks like a Latin?
Mr.Andrews. Right. This boy should be able to be found. I wanted to look for him, but I didn't have a picture of him.
Mr.Liebeler. Who is that?
Mr.Andrews. The one you just asked me about. If you put some circulars around to have the Latin American people squeezed gently, he has got to be found. They are very clannish. There are only certain places they go. Somebody has to remember him. He can't just come into New Orleans and disappear. As long as he walks the street, he has to eat and he has to have some place to sleep and—but I didn't have a picture of him, and nobody—you just can't do it. But a lot of water has run under the stream. He may or may not be here, but it wouldn't be too hard to locate him, you know, with the proper identification.
Mr.Liebeler. Well, your friends down the street have been trying to find him and haven't come up with him yet.
Mr.Andrews. Debrueys?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Andrews. Sometimes the stools on that are not too good. They need Latin stools for that boy.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. Did you just indicate that you would like to find Mr. Bertrand and he did run off? Did you see him run off?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; I chased him, but I couldn't go.
Mr.Liebeler. This was when you saw him 6 weeks ago?
Mr.Andrews. Yes; this barroom is right adjacent to—the street—as you go in, there are two entrances, one on the block side and one on the corner. I had no more idea of finding him than jumping off the bridge. I went in there hoping, and the hope came through. I was so surprised to see him there. I kept working my way there to go to the front when he recognized me and he sprinted out the door on the side of the street and was gone. I had to go past him to go to the phone. I should have conked him with the beer bottle.
Mr.Liebeler. He took off as soon as he saw you?
Mr.Andrews. No; but I was moving to go to the phone. He thought I was moving towards him.
Mr.Liebeler[handing picture to witness]. I show you Pizzo Exhibit No. 453-A, and ask you if you can recognize anybody in that picture.
Mr.Andrews. The one that has a brief case under his arm, full face towards the looker, appears to be Lee Oswald. This boy back here [indicating] appears to be familiar, but I would have to blow his face up to be sure. He is in between. See, this one here [indicating]? I have never seen this picture before.
Mr.Liebeler. Between Oswald, who has the cross mark over his head, and the man who has the arrow over his head?
Mr.Andrews. He is a local boy here, a face I recall. It would take me a while to place it, but the face appears to be familiar.
Mr.Liebeler. You haven't seen this picture before, is that correct?
Mr.Andrews. I don't believe.
Mr.Liebeler. The Secret Service and the FBI have shown you various pictures, but you don't recall this one?
Mr.Andrews. I don't recall seeing that one. There was one of a series where—one of an attorney in town was there—where we all knew him. They may have shown me this, but I don't remember. We used to have a club back in 1946 called Lock (?) Fraternity, and he resembles a boy that was a member.
Mr.Liebeler. I don't think I have any more questions, Mr. Andrews. I want to thank you very much for coming in and I appreciate the cooperation you have given us.
Mr.Andrews. I only wish I could do better.
The testimony of Evaristo Rodriguez, was taken on July 21, 1964, at the Old Civil Courts Building, Royal and Conti Streets, New Orleans, La., by Mr. Wesley J. Liebeler, assistant counsel of the President's Commission. Special Agent Richard E. Logan, interpreter, Federal Bureau of Investigation, was present.
Evaristo Rodriguez, having been first duly sworn, was examined and testified, through the interpreter, Mr. Logan, as follows:
Mr.Liebeler. I am an attorney on the staff of the President's Commission investigating the assassination of President Kennedy. I have been authorized to take your testimony by the Commission pursuant to authority granted to it byExecutive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and joint resolution of Congress No. 137.
You are entitled under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present during your questioning. You are not required to answer questions that you think might be harmful to yourself to answer. You may state the reasons why you don't want to answer them if you wish to do that. You are entitled to 3-days' notice under the rules. I assume you are prepared to proceed with the testimony at this time since you are here, and I assume that since you do not have an attorney, you are prepared to go ahead without one.
Mr.Rodriguez. I am ready to answer all the questions. I have been advised of my rights as you have stated them to me, and I am ready to answer any questions that I can help you with.
Mr.Liebeler. Where were you born, Evaristo?
Mr.Rodriguez[writing]. Gibara, Oriente, Cuba. That's the province, Oriente, and the city is Gibara.
Mr.Liebeler. When were you born?
Mr.Rodriguez. July 26, 1941.
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you live now?
Mr.Rodriguez. 1239 Chartres Street.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you still a citizen of Cuba?
Mr.Rodriguez. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you lived in the United States?
Mr.Rodriguez. I came here in 1962 on a boat. I was first here in 1962. I was on a boat. And I went to Costa Rica and a few other countries. I came back here in January of 1963. I have been here since January of 1963.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you leave Cuba?
Mr.Rodriguez. December of 1961.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you come to leave Cuba?
Mr.Rodriguez. I left Cuba because they were about to put me in the Armed Forces. I didn't care to. I wasn't in agreement with the present government, so I took off.
Mr.Liebeler. How did you get out?
Mr.Rodriguez. On a boat. I came out on a small boat, a small merchant ship.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you work on that boat then or where did you go?
Mr.Rodriguez. I had been working on this boat for about 3 years and 2 months.
Mr.Liebeler. Is that the boat that sunk?
Mr.Rodriguez. It's not the same boat that sunk, but it was a boat of the same company, Barcelona Co., that sunk.
Mr.Liebeler. Eventually, one of your boats did sink and you came then here to New Orleans, is that correct, and that's when you stayed in the United States?
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Logan. I am going to have to ask him a couple of things on this because as I get it in my mind, it seems that he was on a boat.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Rodriguez. First of all, I was on this boat called theBarcelonain the Pacific, and this boat sunk, and we were transferred to another boat, theSan Jose, that first traveled to some other countries, and then when I got to New Orleans, this is where I asked for my political asylum.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. Where do you work?
Mr.Rodriguez. I am a bartender at nights at the Habana Bar at 117 Decatur Street.
Mr.Liebeler. How long have you worked there?
Mr.Rodriguez. About 1 year and 3 months. I have worked there about 1 year and 3 months.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Orest Pena?
Mr.Rodriguez. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Ruperto Pena?
Mr.Rodriguez[answering directly]. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Carlos Bringuier?
Mr.Rodriguez[answering directly]. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. We have information that you saw a man whom you believe to be Lee Harvey Oswald in the bar some time in 1963. Would you tell us all about that?
Mr.Rodriguez. These men came into the bar, two men came into the bar, one of them which I learned later through TV and pictures and newspapers was Oswald. These men came into the bar. One of them spoke Spanish and the one who spoke Spanish ordered the tequila, so I told him that the price of the tequila was 50 cents. I brought him the tequila and a little water. The man protested at the price, thought it was too high, and he made some statement to the effect that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen, and that surely—words to the effect that surely the owner of this bar must be a capitalist, and we had a little debate about the price, but that passed over. Then the man who I later learned was Oswald ordered a lemonade. Now I didn't know what to give him because we don't have lemonades in the bar. So I asked Orest Pena how I should fix a lemonade. Orest told me to take a little of this lemon flavoring, squirt in some water, and charge him 25 cents for the lemonade, and that's the incident surrounding that situation.
Mr.Liebeler. You did not know the names of these men at that time, did you?
Mr.Rodriguez. I didn't know the names of them then; no.
Mr.Liebeler. Did both of the men speak Spanish or just one of them?
Mr.Rodriguez. Only the man that appeared to be a Latin or Cuban spoke Spanish.
Mr.Liebeler. So the man who you later thought to be Oswald did not speak Spanish; is that right?
Mr.Rodriguez. No; the man I later learned to be Oswald did not speak Spanish.
Mr.Liebeler. What time of the day did this happen?
Mr.Rodriguez. This happened about 2:30 or between 2:30 and 3 o'clock in the morning. I am not certain of the exact hour, but that's the best of my recollection.
Mr.Liebeler. Were either of these men drunk?
Mr.Rodriguez. The man I later learned to be Oswald had his arm around the Latin-appearing man, and Oswald appeared to be somewhat drunk.
Mr.Liebeler. You mentioned previously that someone was a Cuban but an American citizen. Were you referring to the man that was with Oswald, or Orest Pena, the owner of the bar?
Mr.Rodriguez. What I did was, the Latin-appearing man asked me if the owner of the bar was a Cuban, and I told him that he was a Cuban, but an American citizen. That's the way that was.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you able to say the nationality of the man that was with Oswald?
Mr.Rodriguez. I am not able to state what his exact nationality was, but he appeared to be a Latin, and that's about as far as I can go. He could have been a Mexican; he could have been a Cuban, but at this point, I don't recall.
Mr.Liebeler. What did this man look like?
Mr.Logan. You want a description of him?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; how old?
Mr.Rodriguez. He was a man about 28 years old, very hairy arms, dark hair on his arms.
Mr.Liebeler. About how tall was he?
Mr.Logan. He says he was about my height. That's about 5 feet 8. He is about the same build of man as I am, short and rather stocky, wide. He was a stocky man with broad shoulders, about 5 feet 8 inches.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know how much he weighed approximately?
Mr.Logan. He probably hit around 155. He doesn't remember the exact weight, but he would guess around the same weight as I appear to be.
Mr.Liebeler. So he weighed about 155 pounds or so?
Mr.Rodriguez. Yes.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he taller or shorter than Oswald?
Mr.Rodriguez. Just a little taller than Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Was he heavier than Oswald or lighter?
Mr.Rodriguez. He was huskier and appeared to weigh more than Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember what color his hair was?
Mr.Rodriguez. He had a high forehead, you might say. He had this back here, the hairline was right back in here like this [indicating].
Mr.Liebeler. He had a receding hairline in the front?
Mr.Logan. He says it's not like yours and mine; it's rather receding on the sides toward—at the front.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. Now how tall would you estimate Oswald was?
Mr.Rodriguez. I didn't get a good look of Oswald standing up straight because Oswald was drunk and he was more or less in a sagging position most of the time. Therefore, I wasn't able to get a good look, but he was a little shorter than 5 feet 8, the height of the other man. He was a little shorter than that, maybe 5 feet 7 or 5 feet 6, but I couldn't tell for sure because Oswald wasn't standing up too straight at the time. In fact, Oswald came in and draped over the table after he sat down.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Oswald become sick?
Mr.Rodriguez. He became sick on the table and on the floor.
Mr.Liebeler. Then did he go in the street and continue being sick?
Mr.Rodriguez. The Latin-appearing man helped him to the street where he continued to be sick.
Mr.Liebeler. What was Oswald wearing?
Mr.Rodriguez. Oswald as I recall, had on a dark pair of pants and a short-sleeved white shirt.
Mr.Liebeler. Did he have a tie on?
Mr.Rodriguez. Oswald had what appeared to be a small bow tie.
Mr.Liebeler. Are you sure?
Mr.Rodriguez. But the thing is, Oswald's collar was open and this thing was hanging from one side of it.
Mr.Liebeler. It was a clip-on bow tie?
Mr.Rodriguez. It was a clip-on thing as I recall.
Mr.Liebeler. When did this happen; what month?
Mr.Rodriguez. I can't remember exactly, but I know it was just about 1 year ago, and I presume it was in August.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember when Orest Pena went to Puerto Rico?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember when Orest went to Puerto Rico. I don't recall when Orest went to Puerto Rico.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went to Puerto Rico or afterward or while he was gone? Do you remember specifically? Do you remember that he did go to Puerto Rico?
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Rodriguez. Orest just said he was going on vacation and didn't tell me where he was going.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember when he went on vacation? Think of it in comparison to the time that Oswald was in the bar. Was Oswald in the bar before Orest went on vacation or afterward or while he was on vacation.
Mr.Rodriguez. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there.
Mr.Liebeler. So he couldn't have been on vacation at the time?
Mr.Rodriguez. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was because at that time, I recall I had to ask Orest how to make the lemonade for Oswald,so——
Mr.Liebeler. Now think again, and think if this was before Orest went on vacation or afterward.
Mr.Logan. The incident, you mean, in the bar?
Mr.Liebeler. Yes.
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember whether it was before or after.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested and went to jail?
Mr.Rodriguez. I remember him being arrested, but I don't remember—I remember when Carlos Bringuier was arrested, but—I was on the street and I saw Carlos. I saw Carlos Bringuier talking to the policeman at the time thathe was arrested, but I didn't see him get into the police car because I took off. I left because I thought I might be following the same path.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you walking when you saw Carlos arrested?
Mr.Rodriguez. I was in a car passing in the street when I saw Carlos talking with the police.
Mr.Liebeler. Who was with you in the car?
Mr.Rodriguez. Orest Pena had driven me to the doctor, and this is how we happened to be in the car together when we passed going to the Habana Bar when we saw Carlos.
Mr.Liebeler. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Liebeler. Did Orest see Bringuier that day?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't know whether Orest saw him or not. Orest was doing the driving. I am not sure whether he saw him or not.
Mr.Liebeler. Was Oswald in the bar before or after you saw Carlos in the street with the policeman?
Mr.Rodriguez. I am not sure, but it was either a couple of days before Oswald was in the bar or a couple of days after, but I can't remember well enough to be exact.
Mr.Liebeler. But it was about that time that you saw Oswald in the bar; is that right?
Mr.Rodriguez. Yes; it was about the same time, same time in relation to days, you know, that same period.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes. Do you remember whether you and Orest saw Carlos in the street before Orest went on vacation or afterward?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember whether it was before Orest went on vacation or after that I saw Carlos in the street.
Mr.Liebeler. Orest was in the bar when Oswald was there? That's right, is it not?
Mr.Rodriguez. Yes. He was in the bar when Oswald was there.
Mr.Logan. He says he is trying to remember the best he can.
Mr.Liebeler. He is doing very well.
Mr.Logan. He is saying that the time passes and it is hard for him to remember everything, but he is trying to remember the best he can.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Orest see Oswald?
Mr.Rodriguez. I didn't see, I don't believe, that Orest saw Oswald. Orest was in the back part of the bar near the telephone, and Oswald and his friend were sitting at a table near the cigarette machine, which is in the right-hand side of the front part of the bar, and Oswald's back was to the place where Orest was at the time.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Orest come up and talk to them when you had this argument about the lemonade and tequila?
Mr.Rodriguez. No; Orest never talked to Oswald or the other man during this altercation about the tequila.
Mr.Liebeler. To the best of your knowledge, Orest never came up or looked at them or saw them while they were there?
Mr.Rodriguez. To the best of my recollection, Orest Pena never saw these two men up close, and, as a matter of fact, Orest was talking on the telephone, and when I asked him about the lemonade, he just told me what to do and didn't pay any more attention to it than that.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you see anybody else with Carlos and the policeman at the time you saw Carlos on the street with the policeman as you have already told us?
Mr.Rodriguez. At the time I saw Carlos Bringuier on the street with the police, I didn't see anybody being put into the police car, but I remember slightly that there were probably three other people in the police car at the time, but I don't know who they were, and I was passing in a car, of course, and didn't have an opportunity to pay any attention to that.
Mr.Liebeler. You didn't see Oswald there?
Mr.Rodriguez. I didn't see Oswald at that time.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you know Celso Hernandez?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't know him. I am acquainted with Bringuier.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first think that the man you saw in the bar, as you have told us, was Oswald?
Mr.Logan. I am going to have to break this down for him.
Mr.Liebeler. What did he say so far?
Mr.Logan. He is answering an entirely different question, something about Bringuier.
Mr.Liebeler. I think we should put this on the record.
Mr.Logan. Let me find out if he understood the question first because the thing is, I think he has got something else in mind.
Mr.Liebeler. Yes; that is the problem.
Mr.Logan. I will get that out of him, too, the part you want.
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Logan. No, no. He doesn't get the message, and I am sure I am saying it plain enough.
Mr.Liebeler. When did you first become aware of the name of this man?
Mr.Rodriguez. The first time that I knew that the man in the bar was Oswald was—the first time that I realized that the man in the bar was Oswald was after President Kennedy had been assassinated and I saw Oswald's picture in the paper with his name and so forth, and that's how I first became aware or first came to realize that the man who had been in the bar with the Latin-appearing man was the same person as Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you discuss this with Orest Pena after you became aware that the man in the bar was the same man as the man whom we think shot President Kennedy? And specifically, I want to ask you if Orest Pena recognized Oswald's picture independently from you or if he only became aware that it was Oswald that was in the bar after you called it to his attention.
Mr.Logan. All right. I will ask him the first one and then I will ask him the second one.
Mr.Rodriguez. The first question is that I actually heard the news of the President's death on the radio, and they still hadn't given out the name of the assassin, who they thought it was. So later on when it came out in the newspaper, I saw the picture in the newspaper of Oswald, and then I pointed out to Orest that this was the fellow who was in the bar and had the argument about the lemonade or about the tequila, rather, and not in the bar at the time because the other fellow argued about the tequila.
Mr.Logan. Now what was that number two again?
Mr.Liebeler. Did Orest mention it to you first by himself? Did he know that that man had been in the bar, or did he only come to think that after you had pointed out to him it was the same man that you thought had bought the lemonade?
Mr.Rodriguez. No; Orest had never seen this man whose picture was in the paper that I recognized as being the man in the bar and who the paper described as Lee Harvey Oswald.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you ever tell Bringuier that the man that was in the bar with Oswald was being sought by the FBI, being looked for by the FBI?
Mr.Rodriguez. I told Bringuier that Oswald had been in the bar. This is after, of course, I discovered that it was Oswald. But I don't remember ever telling Bringuier that the FBI was looking for these people or either one of them.
Mr.Liebeler. So to the best of your recollection, you did not tell Bringuier that the FBI was looking for this man that was with Oswald?
Mr.Rodriguez. I never told Bringuier that the FBI was looking for the man that was with Oswald. I only mentioned to Bringuier that Oswald was the same one that had been in there that had been drinking lemonade in that bar previously.
Mr.Liebeler. Am I correct in saying that the only times that you have been in New Orleans are, one, the period of time beginning in January of 1963 to the present time, and once before at one prior time, the exact date of which I do not recall, but you tell me. Those two times. Are there any other times you have been in New Orleans? Let me rephrase the question: You came to New Orleans in January of 1963 and have been here ever since, and you were in New Orleans at least once prior to that time. Tell me when that was.
Mr.Rodriguez. I got on a boat in Cuba. We went to Mexico. Then we went to New York with sugar. Then we went to Norfolk, and from Norfolk, we went to Bermuda, and then to the Dominican Republic.
Mr.Logan. Unless you want that. I just told him that whole route was not important if he could come down to the exact month he was in New Orleans. Here's the thing: He says now that the very first time he was ever in New Orleans was on a boat that came from Cuba in April of 1959. He was working on a boat that landed in New Orleans in April of 1959. Now he doesn't remember the exact month in 1961 that he was in New Orleans.
Mr.Liebeler. Were you ever in New Orleans in 1962?
Mr.Rodriguez. To the best of my recollection, I was here in May of 1962 where I caught the shipBarcelona.
Mr.Liebeler. Did you know Orest Pena at that time?
(Discussion between witness and interpreter.)
Mr.Logan. As I get it, he knew Orest not well, but he knew him. Had seen him at the bar, around the bars.
Mr.Liebeler. Do you remember talking to him in May of 1962 in his bar here in New Orleans?
Mr.Logan. He remembers probably he talked to Orest during May of 1962. I asked him what they talked about. He said, "Like small talk about boats, about this, about that. Nothing in particular."
Mr.Liebeler. Were you in the bar in May of 1962 with Orest Pena at any time when Orest Pena got into a fight or big argument with another man?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember Orest being in a fight with anybody in the bar in 1962, in May of 1962.
Mr.Liebeler. Did Orest Pena ever say to you in words or in substance that Castro should have been notified about something as soon as possible, and particularly, in May of 1962?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember him saying anything like that.
Mr.Logan. What he was telling me in all this flurry was that Orest, as far as political situations, is happy with his life here in the United States, and I have asked him three times if he remembers Orest making any statement like that, that Castro should have been notified immediately, and he says he has never heard him say anything like that. He doesn't remember.
Mr.Liebeler. And you don't remember any fight that Orest got into with another man?
Mr.Rodriguez. I don't remember anything about a fight or a discussion.
Mr.Liebeler. All right [handing picture to witness]. I show you a picture that has been marked "Bringuier Exhibit No. 1," and ask you if you can identify anybody in that picture.