(Recess.)
Mr.Griffin. We were at the point where you had come into the basement area and seen the people coming down from the juvenile bureau. Before you went down there, had you left word that you would be down in the locker room?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I told Goolsby that I was going down and get me some cigars.
Mr.Griffin. Did there come a time when you were down in the basement that somebody gave you some instructions as to what was to be done?
Mr.Harrison. Captain Jones, I believe it was, had come out and told us to go out into the ramp area, the garage, and to set—to put these photographers and newspeople on the east side of the driveway.
Mr.Griffin. Will you take this map, diagram or chart (Harrison Exhibit 5028) which is—actually is a reduction of a chart that the Dallas Police Department made for us some time ago and purports to represent the basement area? You can see the jail office here?
Mr.Harrison. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. And you can see Commerce Street over here and Main Street here and the garage area here and the Main Street ramp going down and the Commerce Street ramp going up, and this shows a solid wall along Commerce Street here. Actually, this is the basement wall. The basement extends out under the sidewalk, but if you were looking at this at ground level, you would see this broken line is the wall of the building. Now, directing your attention to the part that shows the exit from the jail office and the ramps and the entranceinto the garage, can you mark on there what Captain Jones—how Captain Jones indicated that the newspeople were to be displaced by the officers?
Mr.Harrison. He wanted them across along here on this side.
Mr.Griffin. Do you want to put a series of "X's" or something along there to show?
Mr.Harrison. You want to put "news"?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; you might put some mark on there. This would be news media, newspeople, also?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you mark that "news," also? Now, were there to be any newspaper people from the northern side of the entrance to the garage on up toward the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. There were some.
Mr.Griffin. But what instructions did he give in that regard?
Mr.Harrison. He didn't. He just stated that he wanted them on the east side of the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did he say anything with respect to whether he wanted them on the east side or the west side of the railing?
Mr.Harrison. No; he didn't specify that.
Mr.Griffin. Was it your understanding that there were to be no news media in this area other than the TV people?
Mr.Harrison. In this area right here.
Mr.Griffin. What about in the area to the north of where you have placed the "X's"? Was it your understandingthat——
Mr.Harrison. There were floodlights standing here.
Mr.Griffin. Where you are placing circles on the map. Now, did he give—go ahead.
Mr.Harrison. There were cameras here.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did he give instructions as to where the police officers were to stand?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he give any instructions with respect to forming any lines of police officers or anything like that?
Mr.Harrison. I didn't hear it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long was this before Lee Oswald was brought down that these instructions were given?
Mr.Harrison. This was approximately, oh, maybe 10 or 11 minutes before.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do in that 10 or 11 minutes?
Mr.Harrison. I took up a position in the ramp area here and assisted with getting the newsmen on the east side of the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Did you stay in the same general area?
Mr.Harrison. I did; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Can you indicate on the map by a circle and an "X" where was it you were, generally?
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Actually, Mr. MacMaster, if you feel like you would like to recess this at some particular hour, let me know.
Mr.MacMaster. Let me suggest this. Do you have any idea how long this interrogation will last?
Mr.Griffin. I wouldn't expect it to go more than 45 minutes.
Mr.MacMaster. More?
Mr.Griffin. No; I don't think it will go any longer than that,however——
Mr.MacMaster. What is your—would you just rather stay and finish?
Mr.Harrison. I would rather stay and finish.
Mr.MacMaster. All right. I wonder if I may make my one phone call here on the phone?
Mr.Griffin. Sure.
Mr.Harrison. May I ask you something here?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Let's wait until he finishes.
Mr.MacMaster. Well, let's go ahead. My 13-year-old daughter is on the phone, so that is a career itself trying to get home. I am not going to worry about it.
Mr.Griffin. Feel free at any time to interrupt me. Go ahead. You wanted to ask me.
Mr.Harrison. I made these two things setting too far away. Actually, this camera was setting in this first aisle, one of them was.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Harrison. The cameras were right in line here.
Mr.Griffin. And you were making an effort to steer these news people over into this area and away from the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall when Sam Pierce's car drove out?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir; I do. I let the—I had to move the people back out of the way. There was actually two cars went out.
Mr.Griffin. There were two cars?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, tell me about that.
Mr.Harrison. Well, there was a patrolman went out that direction in a squad car.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know who that was?
Mr.Harrison. I believe it was Mr. O'Dell.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long before or after Pierce's car did he go out?
Mr.Harrison. Well, now, it was some 3 or 4 or 5 minutes, something like that, I am sure.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, let's focus on Mr. O'Dell's car, then. Was anybody in the car with him?
Mr.Harrison. Not that I recall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what—for what purpose he went out?
Mr.Harrison. No; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. What division is he assigned to?
Mr.Harrison. Radio patrol.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you aware, while you were down in the basement, of anybody being dispatched to change the positioning of the people along the street who were supposed to block off Elm Street?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any knowledge at all of how the route was to go, how Oswald was to be conveyed?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever have any knowledge as to what was to be used to convey him?
Mr.Harrison. Well, when we got down there, they were bringing this armored car, backing the armored car, into the south end or Commerce Street side of the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall or would you have been in a position to see whether the armored car was actually in the ramp when you arrived on the scene?
Mr.Harrison. They were backing it in at the time that we came out into the driveway.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Were you able to tell whether it would appear that it had just got to the ramp or how long it had been there?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Where did O'Dell get his car from?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know that. The first time I noticed it was when he came up here through the newsmen. I got them to move back where he could get by, and then there was a couple of men standing up here talking. I believe it was one of the—one of the supervisors talking to a reserve captain, who was standing there. I believe it was Arnett. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there were—at the time that O'Dell's car went out, there were police officers in the direction of the Main Street ramp, closer to Main Street than you were?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you place on there all of the—all right. Let me strike that. Go ahead. Tell me what you want to say.
Mr.Harrison. At the time that O'Dell's car came out, I was back here, in this position here, to help get these men out of the way of the car, and then it was shortly after that that I took up this position here.
Mr.Griffin. I see. All right. Now, at the time that O'Dell's car came out—well, let's strike this. Prior to the time that O'Dell's car came out, were you ever in this area here?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I was moving from this area around to here.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. In other words,keeping——
Mr.Griffin. All right. Maybe we can do this sort of like a football diagram. Why don't you put your initials right there? And down here why don't you draw a circle and an "X" and just say, "Initial placement of Harrison"? Now, why don't you draw an arrow to the general direction of where you were and put a "1" and draw a circle around that, and then down in the corner, put a "1" and a circle and put, "Position when O'Dell's car started to move," if that is correct? Now, when O'Dell's car moved, were there police officers between you and Main Street?
Mr.Harrison. There was—I believe there was a captain—I don't recall who it was—I believe it was Captain Jones, though—talking to this uniformed reserve captain.
Mr.Griffin. Solomon?
Mr.Harrison. No; Arnett.
Mr.Griffin. Arnett?
Mr.Harrison. In the Dallas reserves.
Mr.Griffin. Were there any other police officers up in that general direction?
Mr.Harrison. There were officers out in this area right in here.
Mr.Griffin. You are pointing to the area north of the entrance to the jail?
Mr.Harrison. Well, no; right along the side here. See, this was lined with officers.
Mr.Griffin. The first place that you indicate to is the south wall of the entranceway toward the jail office and up to the corner of the ramp and then along the ramp, the east wall of the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. West wall.
Mr.Griffin. West wall of the ramp toward Commerce Street?
Mr.Harrison. Right.
Mr.Griffin. That is where there were police officers?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. And also that there were police officers along the north wall of the entranceway leading toward the door of the jail office, officers right in there?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, as O'Dell's car moved up the ramp, what did you do?
Mr.Harrison. I just moved these men back and—or asked them to move back—and let him out.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, did you watch his car go up the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see what Jones and Arnett did?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't. Well, I know they moved back out of the way.
Mr.Griffin. Were there news people strung across the Main Street ramp who had to be moved out of the way in order to let O'Dell's car move through?
Mr.Harrison. Not at that time, not on O'Dell's car.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what then happened? Where did you then go after O'Dell's car went up the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Back into my original area. It was about halfway between the ramp and—the rail and the west wall.
Mr.Griffin. Were you looking around the area generally?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, if anybody had come down the Main Street ramp while you were standing there up until the time that Pierce's car went out, would you have seen him come down?
Mr.Harrison. Would you repeat that, now?
Mr.Griffin. If anybody had come down the Main Street ramp up to the time, between the time that O'Dell's car left and the time that Pierce's car went up, would you have seen the person who was coming down there?
Mr.Harrison. I don't think I would have. I was facing more or less back in thisparticular——
Mr.Griffin. All right. At any time during those few minutes between O'Dell's car leaving and Pierce's car leaving, did you look in the direction of the Main Street ramp or over in the direction of the garage area?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Now, if Jack Ruby had been in that area during that period, would you have seen him?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know about that.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, why do you say that?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know whether I would have seen him or not. It was mass confusion, as far as people moving around in there.
Mr.Griffin. But the confusion was over in the area at the entrance of the garage, wasn't it?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And this area up the Main Street ramp was relatively clear?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And you knew Jack Ruby well enough, certainly as well as you know Mr. MacMaster, if you saw him just even briefly, you would recognize him?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. So if at any time you had looked over in that area and Jack Ruby were there, you would have seen him, wouldn't you?
Mr.Harrison. Well, it was very hard to see in this direction at all.
Mr.Griffin. In the direction of the garage?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Why was that?
Mr.Harrison. In this position. These floodlights were very bright.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Harrison. They had—I don't know how many they had.
Mr.Griffin. How long were the floodlights on prior to the time that Oswald came out?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Were they—try to think about this, now—were they on when you first came into the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No; I don't believe they were.
Mr.Griffin. Now, they were taken—did you know whether or not, when the armored car came down the Commerce Street ramp, the, TV cameras, any of the TV cameras, were focused on that armored car?
Mr.Harrison. I didn't notice that. He didn't get all of the way down there.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that Rio Pierce's car moved out, were the floodlights on?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that O'Dell's car moved out, were the TV cameras—were the floodlights on?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall whether they were on or off.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you have any trouble seeing up in the direction of the armored car?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. And standing, from where you were, even in the center of the entranceway toward the jail office, you could see up the ramp toward the armored car and you could recognize the faces of people up there, couldn't you?
Mr.Harrison. Possibly, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was there—other than the little difficulty we all experience with vision, either through age or what-not, was there anything unusually difficult about looking up in the direction and seeing in the direction of the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. And how far up the ramp was the armored car or how far down the ramp, I should say?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I didn't go up there, but it appeared to be setting just backed into the doorway.
Mr.Griffin. Would you say it was halfway down?
Mr.Harrison. No; it wasn't halfway down.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were there officers, police officers, standing up there around the back of the armored car?
Mr.Harrison. I remember seeing Lieutenant Butler up there.
Mr.Griffin. And could you distinguish these police officers from the position in the middle of the entranceway to the jail office where you have marked your initial, where you have marked your initial position on the ramp here, could you, looking up towards Commerce Street, could you distinguish the faces of the police officers up there, could you recognize who they were, toward the armored car?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I recognized Lieutenant Butler, but I don't recall seeing—now, Chief Batchelor was around the truck. They went in and out of the truck there inspecting it.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recall seeing him up there?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh. And you didn't have any difficulty seeing Batchelor from your position on the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. And presumably the same situation would prevail if you looked up toward the Main Street ramp, isn't that right?
Mr.Harrison. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. And did you ever have occasion to look up toward the Main Street ramp and see the police officer who was guarding the exit to the ramp up there?
Mr.Harrison. There was a uniformed officer up there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, from where you were down here at what we have called your initial position, on the time or times that you looked up toward that uniformed officer up there, could you make out his face and what-not?
Mr.Harrison. I never did see his face. All I could see was a man in uniform up there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, we have learned subsequently, and you have, too, I am sure, that that was Officer Vaughn that was up there?
Mr.Harrison. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Vaughn before?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell from where you were that it was Vaughn up there?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I didn't know who it was up there. I could just see his uniform and back.
Mr.Griffin. Was it because he didn't turn his face to you?
Mr.Harrison. He was facing out when I looked up there.
Mr.Griffin. You feel that, if he turned his face toward you, you would have recognized who it was?
Mr.Harrison. I would probably have recognized him; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you if the same thing is true, when you looked up toward the Commerce Street entrance and the sidewalk, there were—do you remember that there were officers guarding up there?
Mr.Harrison. I couldn't see any officers out there. It was considerably darker up on this end of the ramp due to the fact that the armored truck had the light blocked off.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Harrison. I mean the vision, it was pretty well—the whole ramp area was pretty well taken up by that truck?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Let me make sure that I am clear on that. I don't want to put words in your mouth. Is it fair to say that, if on any occasion that you had to look up toward the Main Street ramp, if there had been a man walkingdown that ramp, you or any other officer with vision like yourself would have been able to recognize that person coming down the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know whether you could have recognized him or not due to the fact that you were looking into sunlight.
Mr.Griffin. Well, that is the north side of the building.
Mr.Harrison. That is on the north side of the building, but it was very bright that day.
Mr.Griffin. But you also had floodlights down in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. It was bright in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Your eyes would be accustomed to those bright lights?
Mr.Harrison. A man coming down, if he got close to you, you could recognize him, but just a man in a suit walking down that ramp, it would have been hard to recognize. I will put it that way.
Mr.Griffin. Well, would a man walking down from the Main Street side have been any more difficult to recognize than a man that was standing up in the position that Captain Butler was or Assistant Chief Batchelor was?
Mr.Harrison. Batchelor and Butler, Lieutenant Butler.
Mr.Griffin. Would it have been any more difficult to recognize a man coming down the Main Street ramp than it would those two men coming up the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I believe it would have been, due to the glare in your face.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you keeping an eye out generally for people, news people, who might try to drift over into that area, and by "that area," I am referring to the area along the Main Street ramp, across the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Would you ask that question again?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Harrison. And point out there, please.
Mr.Griffin. Yes. I am referring to the area that goes directly across the Main Street ramp down to the base of the ramp. That area, as I understand it, was supposed to be kept clear. Were you keeping an eye out to make sure that people didn't congregate in there?
Mr.Harrison. There was several officers in this area right in here. I don't know the names of them. I couldn't spot any of them for you. There was one newsman, who had a microphone, immediately to my right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, your right as you faced in what direction?
Mr.Harrison. As I was facing south.
Mr.Griffin. That would be toward Commerce Street?
Mr.Harrison. Right.
Mr.Griffin. At what point was there a man there?
Mr.Harrison. He was even with me.
Mr.Griffin. I mean at whattime——
Mr.Harrison. Oh.
Mr.Griffin. In this series of events.
Mr.Harrison. He was in that general area all of the time.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you keep an eye on him?
Mr.Harrison. No. I wasn't particularly watching him.
Mr.Griffin. Were there any other news people who were there in that area?
Mr.Harrison. There was a Japanese photographer on my left, immediately to my left.
Mr.Griffin. Now, this Officer Harrison, this position that you have marked here as the initial position, is that also approximately the position you were standing at the time that Oswald walked out?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. So that, when you say on your left there, are you talking about at the time that Oswald actually walked out, that is where that Japanese photographer, newsman, was?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Put an "X," if you would, put a small "J" on thatmap where that man was and put a circle around it. Now, that is where the Japanese photographer was standing at the time that Oswald walkedout——
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Is that right? Now, where was this man with the microphone standing?
Mr.Harrison. He was immediately to my right.
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you put an "M" and a circle around him? Now, were there any other police officers over in this general area where you 3 people were?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who were the other police officers?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, when Rio Pierce's car came out, what did you do?
Mr.Harrison. I got these people to move back out of the way and let him through, and I stepped back to the rail, toward the lights there and let him through.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did you have your back to the railing or were you facing the railing?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I had my back to the railing.
Mr.Griffin. Did you watch Pierce's car go up the ramp at all?
Mr.Harrison. I watched it until it cleared the people in that immediate area.
Mr.Griffin. How many people were there to clear out in that immediate area, would you say?
Mr.Harrison. Well, there was seven or eight, I would say.
Mr.Griffin. You wouldn't say there were as many as 20 or 25, would you?
Mr.Harrison. No, no.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were those people all newspaper people, members of the press, or were there some police officers?
Mr.Harrison. There were some police officers in that area.
Mr.Griffin. Uh-huh. Now, at the time that Oswald actually came out of the jail office, how many lines of people, would you say, were strung along in that area that you were? Was there more than one line of people?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Well,then——
Mr.Harrison. Now, where are you referring to?
Mr.Griffin. As I understand it, as Oswald walked out, there was a line of people that came from thenorth——
Mr.Harrison. Northwest.
Mr.Griffin. What corner are we going to call that, northwest or northeast? I think this would be the west.
Mr.MacMaster. Northwest, that is right, isn't it?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; that is correct.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to put "Northwest corner" here so we will know what we are talking about. There was a line of people, was there not, from what I have marked the northwest corner of the Main Street wall all of the way over to you and then around here? No?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. I am honestly trying to find out here how these people were lined up.
Mr.Harrison. Well, due to these lights and the cameras being here, this area was open. There was, like I say, this Japanese, and there was another man or two in that area here, whom I don't—I don't have any idea who he was.
Mr.Griffin. Just put a couple of question marks there. Okay.
Mr.Harrison. And behind me, there were—not immediately behind me, but back in thisarea——
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. Toward the west wall, there was police and also Captain Arnett of the reserves standing—he was standing fairly close to me behind me.
Mr.Griffin. Where was Captain Arnett? Put an "A" where you think he was and then put a circle around that.
Mr.Harrison. He was in that general area somewhere.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that Oswald walked out?
Mr.Harrison. Yes; I believe he was. I amnot——
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember seeing him there about that time?
Mr.Harrison. I remember seeing the uniform there, and he was the captain who was in the uniform down there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember seeing these people over here at that time?
Mr.Harrison. They were—yes; they were there. There were, I believe, two people right in here and there were the cameramen behind the rail.
Mr.Griffin. Blackie, do you remember this from actual memory of what happened or do you remember this from having seen the photographs, the films?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I remember these people on my left here and the ones here on my right. I remember this man with a microphone very distinctly because, when they brought him out, these fellows back here hollered for me to move the line back, which I did.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember if there were any people directly behind you?
Mr.Harrison. No; not that I recall. I remember I spread my arms out and backed the group up where these cameras could get a clear shot of him coming out.
Mr.Griffin. Now, is it fair to say that, if there had been people in back of you, you would have either known it because you were looking around there or because you would have wanted to have cleared them out or would have been worried about it or anything like that?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I wouldn't necessarily have seen them, because I was watching this line across here to keep them from going forward into the path of this—of where Oswald was coming out.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at any time after Rio Pierce's car went up that ramp, did you look in the direction of the ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Not that I recall; no.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any other officers look in the direction of the ramp during that period?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, while you were over here, as Rio Pierce's car drove out, were other officers lined upalong——
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. The other wall?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And, to your knowledge, were any of them looking out in this direction toward the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. I didn't notice any of them looking out that way. They could have been. There was—I know, when they brought Oswald out, Lowery was standing right here on the—on this corner.
Mr.Griffin. Will you put a mark, put an "L" there where Lowery was? Did you at any time, now, did you see Jack Ruby in this basement at any time before he shot Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. Not before he shot Oswald.
Mr.Griffin. When you were standing here, did you feel a man pressing up against your back?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, you have seen the photographs, haven't you?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And you saw where Jack came from?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody that you know of that saw Ruby there?
Mr.Harrison. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Have you talked to anybody that indicated to you that he saw Ruby there?
Mr.Harrison. I sure haven't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do after Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I grabbed him and more or less went to the floor with him and then we took him on into the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. And how long did you remain with him in the jail office?
Mr.Harrison. Until he was handcuffed, and I went upstairs on the elevator with him.
Mr.Griffin. And how long did you remain with him upstairs?
Mr.Harrison. I didn't. I left him at the elevator. McMillon and Archer went back, took him on back to the cell, and I went back down on the elevator to the basement.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do—you weren't present, were you, when Jack was stripped and searched?
Mr.Harrison. No.
Mr.Griffin. When you got back down to the basement, where did you go?
Mr.Harrison. I went back out into the ramp area.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you—how long did you remain in the ramp area?
Mr.Harrison. Well, it was about—until after the ambulance left with Oswald, and then the captain—I believe it was Captain Jones—sent me up to the first floor to see that no one come in there in that—on the first floor that wasn't authorized. We were given orders to stop everyone and see if they were going out of the building to find out who they were.
Mr.Griffin. Whereabouts did you station yourself on the first floor?
Mr.Harrison. I was right there in front of the elevators, at the elevator door.
Mr.Griffin. Were you there alone?
Mr.Harrison. There was—well, there was three or four more officers on that floor. There was one at every door and exit.
Mr.Griffin. Was Officer Miller up there with you?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall where Miller was at that time.
Mr.Griffin. Was Officer Lowery up there with you?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Officer Cutchshaw?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know whether they were or not.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to anybody while you were up there or before you got up there concerning how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No; I told Chief Batchelor, just after I come back downstairs from taking him up—I told Chief Batchelor that I thought he come from behind those cameras over there, but—and that is where I thought he come from at that time.
Mr.Griffin. Now, why did you think he came from behind the cameras?
Mr.Harrison. Well, there was—he came from my left, and I don't see how he could get down the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you feel that way?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I knew there was an officer on the ramp and I just didn't feel like he could have gotten down there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you also feel that you would have seen him if he had come down that ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No, not necessarily; because I wasn't looking toward the ramp all of the time. I never—had I been turned where I could have seen the ramp all of the time, I may have seen him coming down.
Mr.Griffin. If Jack had been in that—were you moving around such after Rio Pierce's car moved that, if Jack had been down there in the basement area, you would have seen him?
Mr.Harrison. Not necessarily; it is possible that he could have been down there and I wouldn't have seen him because he had been back over in this group of newsmen.
Mr.Griffin. All right; but if he had been in the area of the ramp, if he had been up in this area where you were and around up toward the Main Street ramp, would you have seen him if he had been in there?
Mr.Harrison. I might have. I don't—I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. There weren't enough news people milling around up in that area to have obscured him, were there?
Mr.Harrison. Not in that immediate area; no.
Mr.Griffin. In other words, if anybody had been turning and looking up toward the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people in there to have obscured the sight of Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harrison. I don't suppose there would have been.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am not trying to put words in your mouth. I want to make this very clear. I am giving you a direct question like this, but if you feel differently, I want to know if you disagree with me. I am asking a leading question here, but I want to make sure that I am notleading——
Mr.Harrison. What was the question again?
Mr.Griffin. If Jack Ruby had been in this area at the base of the Main Street ramp, there wouldn't have been enough newspaper people there? The fact that there were newspaper people around wouldn't have obscured the sight of him from anybody that was looking up in that direction?
Mr.Harrison. I don't think it would have obscured him, had they been looking in that direction. Now, I did, as I said a while ago, I have looked at some films, and I did look to my left,oh——
Mr.Griffin. By "left," you mean up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. When this guy hollered to me to move the crowd back, I looked to my left and backed the people up.
Mr.Griffin. Your left would be up in the direction of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No; it would be toward the cameras.
Mr.Griffin. Toward the cameras?
Mr.Harrison. Television cameras, yes; over in this direction.
Mr.Griffin. And, as you looked over there, you didn't see Jack Ruby?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember looking over there like that or do you only remember it from having seen the photograph?
Mr.Harrison. No; when they hollered, I glanced over there to see where we were in tryingto——
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. In trying to get out of line of those cameras.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember, as you looked over there, whether you had any difficulty in seeing people over in that area?
Mr.Harrison. There wasn't anyone in here.
Mr.Griffin. In front of the cameras?
Mr.Harrison. No; there was no one in front of the cameras.
Mr.Griffin. What would you say would be the total number of people, including newspaper people and police officers, who were strung from the northwest corner over toward the cameras at the time Oswald came out?
Mr.Harrison. I would say maybe eight or nine.
Mr.Griffin. All right, now. How long did you remain up there by those elevators?
Mr.Harrison. Well, it was, I imagine, 45 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. And what did you do when you left the elevators?
Mr.Harrison. Went back upstairs to the bureau.
Mr.Griffin. Which bureau, now, juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Juvenile bureau.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. We stayed there until they told us to—Captain Jones told us to go up to homicide bureau and write a report as to what we saw and what we did on this thing.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, did Captain Jones give the instructions to write a report to everybody?
Mr.Harrison. Well, he told—I didn't hear him give it to everybody. He told me and Cutchshaw and Lowery to.
Mr.Griffin. Was Miller up there at the time?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall whether Miller was there or not.
Mr.Griffin. Was it your understanding that Jones was trying to contact everybody to get them to write a report as quickly as possible?
Mr.Harrison. Well, now, I don't know about that. He came up there and told me to report back to the bureau, and when we got to the bureau, well, hetold—came in and told Lowery, myself, and Cutchshaw—I remember that very distinctly—to go into Captain Fritz' office and write a report.
Mr.Griffin. Now, about what time would you say you wrote that report?
Mr.Harrison. I don't have any idea.
Mr.Griffin. Well, let me ask you this, then. Maybe this will place it. After you wrote that report, you went out to Love Field, didn't you?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what time would you estimate that you went to Love Field?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we were supposed to be out there when Mayor Cabell's plane left. I believe it was at 5:20, and we left the city hall shortly after 4 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. When you left the city hall, did you make—did you report in with the dispatcher or anything like that?
Mr.Harrison. No; there was no—we went out in two separate cars and we went to—started up Harwood Street, and they gave Lowery a call to return to the station, and Captain Martin met us there in the basement and briefed us as to what to do out at Love Field.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Harrison. And then we headed on out to Love Field.
Mr.Griffin. All right. But, on this question, I understand you that there would not be any record in the office, such as a dispatcher's record or something like that, that would show when you left for Love Field, or would there?
Mr.Harrison. There would be a record of what time he gave Lowery that call to return to the station.
Mr.Griffin. All right. And that was a call from captain who?
Mr.Harrison. Martin.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you had already startedout——
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And turned around and came back? Okay; now, how much time elapsed between the time that you finished—well, strike that. Did you finish writing the report in the homicide office?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How much time elapsed between when you finished that report in the homicide office and you got in your car to go out to Love Field?
Mr.Harrison. I don't have any idea, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Was it right away or did you go back to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Harrison. Well, we went back to the juvenile bureau; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, is there an original copy—you wrote that report by hand, didn't you?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, and is that—I am going to call a halt here and I am going to mark a couple of exhibits. All right. I am going to hand you, Mr. Harrison, what I have marked as Exhibit No. 5030. Now, this is a copy of a letter, which you apparently signed and was addressed to Chief Curry dated November 24. Now, let me ask you, did you write that out in hand first?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And do you know whether your office has retained handwritten copies of those reports?
Mr.Harrison. No. It was—I am sure it was thrown away.
Mr.Griffin. Now, who did you turn your handwritten copy over to?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know who typed it up. I know this was signed and sent in by, I think, Lieutenant Wallace.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Would you do this for me? After we finish here, would you check with Captain Martin and Lieutenant Wallace and find out from them if the handwritten copies of the things—of your report, handwritten copy of your report, isavailable——
Mr.Harrison. All right.
Mr.Griffin. If it has been retained? I believe that you will find that many of these were retained. There are other officers who have been able to get these for us.
Mr.Harrison. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. And so I am inclined to believe that it is probably available someplace, and if you will get that and turn it over to us, I would appreciate that very much. We will make a copy of it and return the original to the department, but I would like a copy of that. Now, do you remember whether or not—do you remember any of the people who were in the homicide office when you filled out that report?
Mr.Harrison. Cutchshaw, myself.
Mr.Griffin. Any of the homicide people who were there?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if Fritz was there?
Mr.Harrison. He was in and out of there during the time that we were in there, but I don't recall how long he stayed or anything like that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if Montgomery was there?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, Montgomery was in there.
Mr.Griffin. How do you happen to know about Montgomery being there?
Mr.Harrison. Well, I know Montgomery very well. In fact, I used to be close neighbors to him.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Harrison. And I do remember him being in there. I remember that very clearly.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you talk with Montgomery at all about what had happened down in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. While you were in the juvenile bureau, before you left to go to Love Field, did you hear any rumors as to how Ruby got in the basement?
Mr.Harrison. No. They were talking about—Lowery said that he thought that he may have come by with a camera that was moved across just prior to the time that Pierce's car went out, and they were talking about the number of men who were on that camera, the particular camera. And—but that is the only discussion I heard as to how he may have got in there. For some time there, we thought that may have been the way he got in, I mean the men in my particular bureau.
Mr.Griffin. When did Lowery first tell you that?
Mr.Harrison. Well, he had started talking about this when we were in the basement.
Mr.Griffin. And while you were in the basement, did you hear any other rumors as to how he got in?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir; sure didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as long as you were at the juvenile bureau, did you hear any rumor about his coming down the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No, no; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk with Officer McMillon on the day before you went to the juvenile bureau and after Ruby was shot—I mean Oswald was shot?
Mr.Harrison. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. How about Officer Archer?
Mr.Harrison. Well, now, they went up on the elevator with me, I found out later, but I didn't see them.
Mr.Griffin. Or Clardy?
Mr.Harrison. I don't remember whether Clardy was on there or not.
Mr.Griffin. Or Dean?
Mr.Harrison. I don't recall if Dean was on there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you talk with Dean at any time on the 24th after Ruby was shot—Oswald was shot?
Mr.Harrison. No, I didn't talk with Dean at all.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to any people in the patroldivision——
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Afterward?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. At any time on Sunday, that is, the day that Oswald was shot, did you hear the rumor that Ruby came down the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got back—what time did you get back to the juvenile bureau on Friday—I mean on Sunday?
Mr.Harrison. It was well after 6 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. And did you—when you got back there, did you talk with anybody about how Ruby might have got in?
Mr.Harrison. No; I went on home.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear any discussion fromanybody——
Mr.Harrison. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. From anybody about how—well, weren't people generally discussing this?
Mr.Harrison. I suppose they were, but I was tired, and I went home.
Mr.Griffin. Wasn't this a big topic of conversation back there at this time?
Mr.Harrison. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. All right. When you got back on Monday morning—did you come in Monday morning?
Mr.Harrison. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you begin to talk with people about how Ruby got in?
Mr.Harrison. I suppose I did, but I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. When is the first time that you recall hearing the rumor that he came down the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. Well, it would have been possibly Monday. I was off Tuesday and Wednesday. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did McMillon ever tell you at any time that—have you talked with McMillon about this, these events, at any time since Sunday the 24th?
Mr.Harrison. We have had some discussion, but I don't recall what it was. Of course, we have talked to several.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to Dean at any time?
Mr.Harrison. No; I have never talked to him.
Mr.Griffin. Are you friendly to Dean?
Mr.Harrison. No; he is in the radio patrol, and I very seldom see the man.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How about Archer?
Mr.Harrison. Archer, he is in the auto bureau. I see him occasionally.
Mr.Griffin. How about Clardy?
Mr.Harrison. Occasionally; I see him.
Mr.Griffin. Now, have any of these men told you since the—since the time that Oswald was shot by Ruby that Ruby told them that he came in through the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Harrison. They never did tell me that, none of them.Now——
Mr.Griffin. When was the first—go ahead.
Mr.Harrison. I heard, after the trial down there—I heard them discussing, of course, the evidence that was brought out, and they said that he had made the statement that he came in that way. And when Lieutenant Wallace and Lieutenant McCaghren were making their followup investigation, which I don't know how many days it was after, they had talked that he had, or suggested that he had, come down the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Now, they had suggested this?
Mr.Harrison. Well, they had, through their investigation, more or less, they had kind of—I guess you would make a theory out of it that he had come down the ramp.
Mr.Griffin. You don't mean that they suggested it, but this is the inference or the conclusion that they drew?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what I would like for you to do is, if you would, sign Exhibit 5028 and date it.
Mr.Harrison. This is the 25th, isn't it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, it is. Isn't it? Yes. I might say for the record, so that Mr. MacMaster understands, part of the procedures here now permit you to askany questions that you want of Mr. Harrison, and I am going to just ask him to identify, sign these documents, identify them, and ask him specifically whether he has any changes that he would want to make on these, particularly on these reports and statements, and I am prepared to accommodate myself to your time on this, if you feel that you want to ask some questions. If you prefer to adjourn for dinner, or something like that, and come back, I would be happy to do that, and resume it later on this evening.
Mr.Harrison. I would rather go ahead with it, if it is agreeable with you all.
Mr.Griffin. It doesn't make any difference with me.
Mr.MacMaster. Mr. Harrison, on Exhibit 5026, I believe that was the first exhibit.
Mr.Griffin. Twenty-seven.
Mr.MacMaster. Twenty-seven. That is just a reference to the basement area. Is that the police recreation room or locker room?
Mr.Harrison. Yes.
Mr.MacMaster. That is just a rough hand drawing, you didn't intend that to be exact to scale in any way?