ChiefBatchelor. Yes; I told him sometime around 10 or a little after. And he said he would get there as quickly as possible. He had to call a crew down to man the truck. And Mr. Hall, who is their Dallas representative here, brought the truck down with another driver driving the small one.
Mr.Griffin. When was the truck brought down?
ChiefBatchelor. It was brought down—probably it wasn't at 10 o'clock, because they didn't get there that early. It must have been closer to 11 o'clock when they finally got down there with it.
Mr.Griffin. Did you say anything else to Mr. Fleming during this first telephone conversation? Did you tell him anything about the route?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't believe that I told him the route we were going to take, no. I know I didn't tell him.
Mr.Griffin. While you were on the telephone with Mr. Fleming, where was Chief Curry, if you know?
ChiefBatchelor. He was in his office. I called Mr. Fleming from my office. I left his office and went into my office and called him.
Mr.Griffin. How about Chief Stevenson, where was he?
ChiefBatchelor. He was either in his office or in Chief Curry's office with him. We were all together.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that Curry got off the first telephone call with Decker, was there anything that Stevenson was supposed to do?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, he and I both, under Chief Curry's instructions, he said you'd better go downstairs and see what manpower you will need to cover that basement down there. One other thing, Chief Lumpkin had come in and he was the man I asked to find out for me how tall that ramp was down there, what the clearance was.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did Lumpkin go down there before or after you called Fleming?
ChiefBatchelor. I think he went down there. He called somebody down that knew how tall it was, but that was after I talked to Fleming the first time.
Mr.Griffin. Does your office, Chief, maintain any records of outgoing telephone calls?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. At the time that you were talking to Fleming, between the time that the chief talked with Decker and you talked with Fleming, would there have been any occasion for a dispatcher to make any particular communication to the people in the field as a result of the conversation with Decker?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir. As a matter of fact, nobody knew this. I mean, except the few people on the staff.
Mr.Griffin. I realize that nobody would have known about the particular contents of the conversation, but what I am getting at is, is there any reason that somebody might have said at this point he knew you were going to have to make a move, you'd better dispatch the men in? You'd better send out a general call to bring in more men?
ChiefBatchelor. This would have been handled in a telephone conversation with the dispatcher, yet nobody would know the real reason for it. Talbert did have some men called in. He did have some men called in.
Mr.Griffin. How did Talbert come to make this call in relation to the conversation?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know, unless he was anticipating. Well, I don't know how to say it. It had gotten on the radio and in the newspapers and everywhere else that this was going to be at 10 o'clock, I presume, because there was people all up and down the street, across the street from the city hall on Commerce waiting for this thing to happen.
Mr.Griffin. Were they waiting there when you came in at 8 o'clock?
ChiefBatchelor. Oh, there wasn't anybody there that early, but they were down there around 10 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Can you think of anything that might have happened in the ordinary course of things after Decker and Curry talked, that would have been recorded in the police department?
ChiefBatchelor. About the movement of the prisoner?
Mr.Griffin. No. I am particularly referring to the movement of the prisoner, but I am thinking of something that might pinpoint the time in which this conversation with Decker occurred, that Curry might have said at this point, "All right, Stevenson, bring in so many men," and Stevenson would have told the dispatcher to send out a call, and nobody would have known the purpose of the call, but it would fix a time?
ChiefBatchelor. Stevenson went back after we determined we were going to have to secure the basement and move the prisoner. He went back to his bureau and had them send some men down there, some detectives.
He didn't have to call them from the field. He had them back there.
Talbert sent out and got some men, and I don't know whose direction he did that on, but we went down there to see what manpower we would need. And when we got there, he had them there, and where he got this information, I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Now after you talked with Fleming the first time, what did you do? After you finished that telephone conversation?
ChiefBatchelor. We went downstairs and that is when we had instructed them—it was Wiggins, I believe, in the jail office, to get that camera out of there. And we instructed them—Curry went down with us, too, and there were two cars sitting across from the jail exit door. They were sitting in these places right here.
Mr.Griffin. You want to take a pen and mark?
ChiefBatchelor. And we had these cars moved [marking on exhibit].
Mr.Griffin. What time of the morning would you estimate that was?
ChiefBatchelor. This must have been about 9:30 or 9:15, somewhere along in there.
Mr.Griffin. You want to mark what you think the approximate time was in between the two cars where you marked?
ChiefBatchelor. [Indicates time.]
Mr.Griffin. Were there any other cars in the basement area at that time?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; there was several other cars. Chief Curry's car was over here, and mine was over here.
Mr.Griffin. That is in the chief's normal parking place?
ChiefBatchelor. These all are our normal spaces.
Mr.Griffin. You want to mark those in there?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks.]
Mine is over here, and I don't know whether Chief Fisher was in there or not. I don't remember his.
Mr.Griffin. You want to put the time in between those two also?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks time.]
Mr.Griffin. What time they were parked in there, the time that you are talking about right now that you saw them there. That is the same time that was on the other cars?
ChiefBatchelor. They were there all morning. They were parked there and they stayed there up until we moved them.
Mr.Griffin. So they were there at 9:15 to 9:30?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks on chart.]
Mr.Griffin. Were there other cars in the basement area?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes, there were others. I don't recall just exactly. It wasn't full. It was a Sunday, and Chief Stevenson's car was parked over here somewhere, and Chief Lunday's, Lumpkin's car was parked here.
Mr.Griffin. Was there general traffic of police cars in and out of the garage?
ChiefBatchelor. There would have been. However, on Sunday morning, that time of day there is very little traffic in and out of there. It is one of the quietest times. There were two or three other cars parked in here.
Mr.Griffin. When you went down to the basement at that time, were there news people in the basement?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes, sir. When we went down in there the next time, there was some cameras setting up here that had just been rolled in. They weren't operative.
Mr.Griffin. Let's focus on this trip that you took downstairs with, was it Stevenson?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. At 9:15 or 9:30. What is your best estimate of the number of news people that were down there?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know. I can tell you a better estimate when we finally went down there.
Mr.Griffin. Was it crowded or sparsely crowded?
ChiefBatchelor. It wasn't crowded; no. There wasn't any big congregation. There may be two or three people from—some television people standing around there, trying to get set up, and they had some cables and stuff in there, and the best I remember, we told them they were going to have to move those cables out of there. And we instructed Lieutenant Wiggins to move these two vehicles out.
Mr.Griffin. Those were the two that are on the Main Street side of the entrance into the garage area?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes, north side. And that we were going to have this for the news media to stand behind the rail.
Mr.Griffin. Right where the two cars were that you wanted to be moved?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; and we instructed the television people that they would have to put their cameras on this side of the driveway.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to any newspeople yourself?
ChiefBatchelor. I didn't myself. I was present there. I don't remember exactly who directed, whether it was Chief Curry or Stevenson or myself, but I mean it was three of us standing there, and we all agreed that this needed to be done, and one of us told them.
Mr.Griffin. Now this first trip down to the basement, what did you do besides direct that the two cars on either side of the garage entrance be moved, and that the camera be moved back there?
ChiefBatchelor. We went over in here, and there were some detectives around in here.
Mr.Griffin. Now can you indicate in words what you are referring to on the map?
ChiefBatchelor. They were along in here. There was a man over here by this elevator.
Mr.Griffin. Thisis——
ChiefBatchelor. City hall elevator.
Mr.Griffin. The first place that you referred to was the entrance way in the garage. Were some people congregated there, and was there a man at the No. 1 or No. 2 elevator?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know who he was?
ChiefBatchelor. No; I didn't pay any attention to who he was. It was a uniformed man standing over there. I later learned this was a reserve that was over there, but I didn't pay any attention.
Mr.Griffin. The uniformed man was a reserve officer?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you later learn that from?
ChiefBatchelor. In the course of the investigation later.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Some days after Oswald was shot?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now after going over near the elevator where the uniformed reserve officer was, what did you do next?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, we went back upstairs. And Stevenson had gone at this time. We went down this first time to see the layout, and there wasn't too many here. We went back upstairs, and Chief Stevenson sent some detectives down, and brought his uniformed men in. I came down the last time, was just before the removal of the prisoner, and in the meantime I had contacted Mr. Fleming about the armored motor car.
Mr.Griffin. You came down three times?
ChiefBatchelor. I went up once, and then Stevenson and I came down and looked this thing over, and then down with Curry, and then the last time.
Mr.Griffin. On the first occasion when you were down there, you say you saw this uniformed reserve officer. Did you later learn what his name was?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't remember it. It is in the report.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark with an "X" on the map where that reserve officer was standing and the approximate time?
ChiefBatchelor. (marking). He was standing over here.
Mr.Griffin. Let the record indicate that he has marked it with a circle. This is again somewhere around 9:15 or 9:30?
ChiefBatchelor. Somewhere along there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you learn in the course of your investigation his name?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall his name.
Mr.Griffin. Would that appear anywhere in the report, do you think?
ChiefBatchelor. Not in that report. It would appear in the reports that were made by Captain Jones in the course of investigating who was where. You have a diagram similar to this with everybody marked on it, and he is on one of those.
Mr.Griffin. Had he been stationed there by somebody?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; now I could be mistaken about the exact time I saw him there. That is, whether it was this trip or the trip before. I could be mistaken about it, but I do remember seeing him here when we came down.
Mr.Griffin. Excuse me, do you want to mark the map then what the alternate time might be? You might write whatever time you think it was.
ChiefBatchelor. (marking). He was there before then, but I am talking about when I may have seen him there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, Chief, after you left the basement area on this first trip, where did you go?
ChiefBatchelor. We went back upstairs to the office.
Mr.Griffin. Did Chief Stevenson go back up with you?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When you got back up on the third floor, were there news media personnel on the third floor?
ChiefBatchelor. There were some up there.
Mr.Griffin. I take it, it was not what you consider a crowded condition.
ChiefBatchelor. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were there television cameras still there?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When you arrived at 8 o'clock in the morning, were there TV cameras up there?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Were the TV cameras manned at 8 o'clock in the morning?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; the best I remember, they were.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what TV stations had cameras up there at that time?
ChiefBatchelor. It was KRLD and WFAA, if I remember right. And I could be mistaken about the WFAA. It could have been WBAP.
Mr.Griffin. How do you happen to remember KRLD?
ChiefBatchelor. They were the first ones in there and they had their truck parked outside. And also, I am pretty sure it was WFAA, because WFAA had a truck parked on the Harwood Street side.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell at 8 o'clock in the morning if they were shooting footage?
ChiefBatchelor. I couldn't tell. All the time that I remember, they had these little viewers in the back of the thing and you could see through them and see what was going on through them, look through the camera. Whether they were shooting footage, there wasn't anything to shoot that morning. It was pretty quiet.
Mr.Griffin. Now, the second trip when you came back upstairs after your first trip downstairs, where did you go?
ChiefBatchelor. After the first trip, I came back up to again get in touch with Mr. Stevenson and tell him.
Mr.Griffin. Fleming?
ChiefBatchelor. Fleming, I mean, and tell him what the height of that thing was. Then he told me, well, I will just send both trucks down there and you can take the one you want.
Mr.Griffin. This second phone call, was Mr. Fleming at home?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether Fleming had been contacted by anyone in your office or Decker's office or anybody else prior to your first phone call to him?
ChiefBatchelor. I would think not. He couldn't, because this was his first knowledge of it.
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell us what else you said to him? What else this conversation involved?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall saying anything other than expressing our appreciation for his help. And he said he would send both of the trucks down. I told him how to bring the trucks. I told him to bring them east on Harwood—I mean on Commerce Street, and that we would back it down the ramp so that we would be leaving the ramp in the right direction when they pulled out.
Mr.Griffin. Up to the time that you had this second conversation with Fleming, had you discussed with anybody the route by which you would take Oswald to the county jail?
ChiefBatchelor. Nobody but Chief Curry, that I recall, and probably Chief Stevenson. As a matter of fact, this route that they were to take was worked out more between Stevenson and Curry and Fritz than it was with me. My primary job here was to get the truck and get the cars placed, and it was decided that Chief Curry would lead the car down there, followed by a car of detectives, and then the armored car, and then followed by another car of detectives, and then followed by Stevenson and I in a rear car.
Mr.Griffin. This planned route of the movement was to go from Commerce to Central Expressway, left to Elm Street, then down Elm Street?
ChiefBatchelor. To Houston; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now as a result of that decision, were any cars or officers called in from the field?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who?
ChiefBatchelor. Talbert called his officers in. He had called and scattered them up. And then there was some discussion about taking it down Main Street, and I am not too sure where I got this information, but anyway, he sent a sergeant and moved those officers over a block to Main Street.
Mr.Griffin. Why was the route changed?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, I don't know. The route was changed without my knowing it, really. When they decided to take Oswald in an automobile instead of the armored car.
Mr.Griffin. Who participated in that decision?
ChiefBatchelor. Chief Curry, Chief Stevenson, Captain Fritz, I believe—I was not in there when it was discussed.
Mr.Griffin. After you talked to Fleming the second time what did you do?
ChiefBatchelor. Then he said he would send them over, and we went down there to get the cars lined up. This must have been, oh, probably 10:45, 10:30 to 10:45. I went downstairs and I saw the basement well covered. We had a man at the top of the ramp on Main Street. We had several men in the basement leading into the garage area just before you get to the jail office, and I went through there, and Stevenson was with me.
Mr.Griffin. Let me interrupt you here, Chief. I think I will pull out another map so that we can mark it. I am going to mark this map, for the purpose of identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Deposition Exhibit 5001." Now I want you to use this exhibit, Chief, to indicate what you saw on this second trip downstairs, which you indicated would be what time?
ChiefBatchelor. I came out of the elevator into the basement and saw a number of officers across this area right here. There were several detectives.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark that with "X's"?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marking.] Detective there. We walked through here. We noticed these cameras had been moved out.
Mr.Griffin. You are talking about the passageway past the jail office?
ChiefBatchelor. Past this jail office here. I noticed that inside the jail office there were three or four photographers inside the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. At that point, you were at the jail office door nearest to the ramp driveway, and you looked in that door and you saw some news people?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; photographers.
Mr.Griffin. Did you recognize any of them?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall them. We went in there and moved them out. We went and instructed the jail supervisor that there was to be no one in that jail office except officers.
Mr.Griffin. Who was the supervisor?
ChiefBatchelor. Lieutenant Wiggins. And we moved them out and we instructed the reporters, and there were a number of them down there at that time, by no means all of them, that—later there were, but there was a good many—we told them they would have to stand back over here.
Mr.Griffin. That is against the railing?
ChiefBatchelor. Along the railing. And they had set up two TV cameras behind this railing.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark with an "S," where the two cameras were set up?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marking.] Then there was another one right here.
Mr.Griffin. Was that third camera there when you came down at 10:45?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't think so. That was the one sitting over there. These were the two sitting out here.
Mr.Griffin. Now the two cameras that you placed there had been originally near the record room?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When did you see them near the record room? When you came in in the morning?
ChiefBatchelor. No. That trip down after we came down.
Mr.Griffin. Would you take Exhibit 5000, and would you mark those two TV cameras that you saw on the first trip?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks.]
Mr.Griffin. I believe you said that that time was 9:15?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; now they had been moved here.
Mr.Griffin. Behind the railing?
ChiefBatchelor. Behind the railing, and this was one sitting here. That was dead.
Mr.Griffin. You are marking in the entrance to the garage off the Main Street ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. That camera that you are marking there in the garage?
ChiefBatchelor. Not operating.
Mr.Griffin. By that, do you mean thatthe——
ChiefBatchelor. It wasn't hooked up.
Mr.Griffin. But the other two cameras which you have marked behind the railing, were they taking shots when you walked down?
ChiefBatchelor. No; I don't know that they were at that time. They didn't have any lights on, no floodlights on, and they had been told to keep their floodlights off. They didn't turn them on.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time that you came down on the second trip at about 10:45, did you discuss with anybody up on the third floor where you wanted these TV people placed and what you wanted done with the lights?
ChiefBatchelor. We told the men down here, and we told the reporters down here, just kind of announced to them.
Mr.Griffin. As you walked down?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes. Some of them—one of the supervisors came in and said they couldn't get them all along here and wanted to know if it would be all right to put them along here?
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating at the bottom of the Main Street ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. Main Street entrance ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Between the railing and jail office?
ChiefBatchelor. And the wall.
Mr.Griffin. Yes. They wanted to put their cameras there?
ChiefBatchelor. No; it wasn't cameras. They just wanted to stand there.
Mr.Griffin. What did you tell them?
ChiefBatchelor. Since we couldn't get them in there, he told them if they would stay back, they could stay there. And there were some officers that were stationed along there to hold them back.
Mr.Griffin. But your original hope was that all of the news media people could be in the entrance to the garage?
ChiefBatchelor. And they were scattered along here, too. Scattered along the entrance into the garage itself and along here, but some of them, there just wasn't room for them, and some got across here.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain downstairs on this second trip?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't think this is the second trip. I think, well, I guess it is. But I came down here, and Stevenson and I looked this thing over.
Mr.Griffin. You are going to have to indicate in words.
ChiefBatchelor. We looked over the basement to see that the security was in order. I noticed an officer at the Main Street ramp.
We walked up the Commerce Street ramp and noticed a crowd of people across Commerce Street, and was told by one of the supervisors that they were keeping them across there, and that they allowed no one on the side next to the police station of the city hall except officers. And the only people over here were either reservists or regular officers. They had officers across the street. Chief Lunday told me they had officers down at the courthouse across from the jail entrance. Was keeping that crowd back there.
Mr.Griffin. Now as you looked along the sidewalk on the north side of Commerce Street, from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl—from the Commerce Street ramp to Pearl Expressway—in other words, in the direction of the municipal building, could you see how the police officers were spaced, and how many officers were along the north side of Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, it is a good ways to Pearl, and the crowd didn't extend anywhere near down to Pearl Street. It was mostly just across from the building up to Harwood Street rather than Pearl. There weren't that many people there. It wasn't like a parade. I guess there were, oh, a couple of hundred people across there, perhaps.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether or not there was a police officer at the corner of Pearl and Commerce?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know. I don't remember whether there was or not. I'm sure there must have been one stationed there.
Mr.Griffin. When you walked out on the sidewalk and were talking about this 10:45 trip down to the basement, what did you do?
ChiefBatchelor. I turned around and walked back in there. They had parked Chief Curry's car out east of the Commerce Street ramp on the street, double parked, parallel to some parked cars that were already there. Then I drove my car out of the basement and parked it west of the Commerce Street ramp exit, and I double parked it also right behind his, the intention being that when this convoy came out, that he would lead off and I would drop in behind Chief Curry with Chief Stevenson.
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark on the map where Chief Curry's car was and where your car was placed on Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. This confuses me a little here. There is not any offset.
Mr.Griffin. Unfortunately, this black line that confuses you represents a basement wall. It doesn't represent the street.
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks on map.]
Mr.Griffin. What did you do after you moved your car out on Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. Shortly after that just within a few minutes these armored cars arrived.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you standing when the armored cars arrived?
ChiefBatchelor. I was in the basement, but somebody told me down there, shouted that these armored cars had arrived, so I came up again out of the ramp to look at the two cars to see which one we wanted. I looked in the inside of the larger armored car and decided that this one is the one we would have to use because it had room not only for the prisoner, but two guards to be placed in there with him.
And this one—Mr. Hall, I believe is his name—I think it is Mr. Hall that drove the truck up there. And this truck was too large or too tall to drive clear to the foot of the basement ramp. It wouldn't clear this ceiling at that point, so I asked Mr. Hall to back it in, and he started backing it in, and he got the truck inside of the ramp with all of the body inside and the cab on the outside, on the sidewalk. He stopped and suggested that he not go to the bottom of the ramp with it because of its weight. He was afraid that in trying to pull out, he might kill the motor and stall it on the ramp, and suggested that since it blocked the entrance, if we could use it from that point, he would rather it go from that point.
Mr.Griffin. At the point this conversation took place, had you or anyone else to your knowledge told Hall what route would be taken?
ChiefBatchelor. No; we told him he would follow a lead car, and pointed out the car that he would follow.
Mr.Griffin. At that point, did you indicate to him how soon it would be before Oswald would be brought down?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir; this truck was parked in the ramp, and I thought that this would be a safe place to park it because on one side of the truck next to the west wall of the ramp there was only about 12 inches of space. And between the truck and the east wall, there was only 18 to 24 inches of space. I placed an officer between the west wall and the truck, which totally blocked it. And I placed two officers between the truck and the east wall, and that totally blocked that. Then I believe it was Lieutenant Smart and I got in the truck and searched it. We found a soft drink bottle in the truck, which we took out. I found a loose bolt lying on the floor, which I took out.
There was a device on the back side of the truck which was sort of a gauge and a lever which I didn't understand what it was and I asked Mr. Hall what that was, and he said it was an emergency brake in the event something happened to the driver, that whoever was in the back of the truck could pull that lever and stop the truck. We got these items out of the truck and took them away, left the back doors of the truck open to receive the prisoner, and then I went back down to the foot of the ramp and waited, and in a few minutes shortly after the arrival of the truck, Chief Stevenson came down, and this was, oh, nearly 11:30. It was just a matter of minutes before—and told me of the change of plans, and that they were going to send the truck in convoy down through Elm Street, and that the carcarrying——
Mr.Griffin. You mean Main Street?
ChiefBatchelor. No; Elm Street, and that the truck carrying Oswald anda car of detectives would drop out of the convoy, out on Main Street and drive down Main Street by themselves. In other words, the truck was to be a decoy, and the lead car and all the other cars would follow it on down Elm Street, while the car carrying the prisoner would go down Main Street.
Mr.Griffin. What security was there going to be?
ChiefBatchelor. We had moved the officers over from Elm Street to Main Street on the corner. The only security would have been a car carrying detectives, following the car carrying the prisoner and detectives.
Mr.Griffin. How were the officers moved, by a radio dispatcher, or was somebody sent out?
ChiefBatchelor. A sergeant was sent out, a three-wheeler. Talbert had it done. I don't recall who did that.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you know at this point whether there was an officer stationed at the corner of Main and Commerce? Main and Pearl Expressway?
ChiefBatchelor. No; I don't know whether there was or not.
(Short recess had.)
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Why don't we state this for the record, that we have had a recess and an off-the-record discussion between Mr. Griffin and Chief Batchelor, and so that the record may be clear about where the policemen who were to guard the route which was originally planned for the transfer of Oswald, on the streets of the city of Dallas, I will let Chief Batchelor at this time explain where they were originally to be stationed, and where they were moved to.
ChiefBatchelor. They were originally stationed along Elm Street, and later were moved to Main Street where the prisoner would actually go.
Mr.Griffin. I believe that before we took the recess that I was asking you if at the time that you were down in the basement and examining the armored car, you were aware that a man was or was not stationed at the corner of Main and Pearl Expressway?
ChiefBatchelor. I do not know. I was not aware. I hadn't given that any thought at the time. Actually, Main and Expressway would pose no traffic problem of a turning movement, at that point, because Pearl Expressway, which is a one-way street, and the convoy would have been next to the curb, and it would pose no problem at this point, trafficwise.
Mr.Griffin. When Chief Stevenson came downstairs and told you that the route had been changed, where did he tell you that the caravan would turn off Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. On Central Expressway.
Mr.Griffin. When it turned left on Central Expressway, where would it next turn?
ChiefBatchelor. The convoy would go to Elm Street, but the prisoner and a car of detectives would turn off at Main.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you discuss with him the reasoning behind this decoy?
ChiefBatchelor. I merely asked him why the change, and he said they decided to change it up in the Homicide Bureau in a discussion with Chief Curry, because if anyone attacked, they would have the prisoner in a car separate from the convoy and the public would not know this, and they thought this would be a wise move.
Mr.Griffin. Now you all were aware that the TV cameras were going to be focusing on the car or the vehicle that Oswald was placed in, didn't you? The people in the downtown streets wouldn't be able to see that, but there were also newsmen down there who were broadcasting and they would be able to tell people listening in on the radio what car?
ChiefBatchelor. You are arguing with me. I had nothing to do with moving the prisoner.
Mr.Griffin. I didn't mean to argue with you, chief.
ChiefBatchelor. I didn't make the decision and I don't know whether it was wise or not. It is a moot question now.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, what next happened after you talked with Chief Stevenson about this change in plan?
ChiefBatchelor. This happened when he told me about it, just moments before they actually brought him down, and he told me they were bringing acar up on the ramp, two cars up on the ramp, one to carry the prisoner and one to carry the detectives.
Mr.Griffin. Let me go back one bit here. You stated that you came down. This one time you are talking about was an episode where you went through the armored car, and this would have been your third trip downstairs?
ChiefBatchelor. And my last one.
Mr.Griffin. And your last one. Now the first trip that you came down the stairs was when you saw these reserve officers over by the elevators?
ChiefBatchelor. Actually, that was the second trip down, I believe.
Mr.Griffin. That would have been about what time?
ChiefBatchelor. Oh, probably 10 or 10:15, somewhere along in there.
Mr.Griffin. I see. So that the trip that we have been referring to in the past, the 10:45 trip, is really most clearly distinguished bythe——
ChiefBatchelor. I may be a little mixed up on my time, but the last trip, the trip we are talking about when we searched the armored car and put that in place, that was fairly close to the movement of the prisoner, and I would say somewhere around 10:45 to 11 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now that happened somewhere around 11:20?
ChiefBatchelor. About 10:45.
Mr.Griffin. But you never went back upstairs, from the time that you moved your automobile up onto Commerce Street and the time that you searched the armored car?
ChiefBatchelor. No; Chief Stevenson did, but I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. How long would you say you were downstairs from the time that you walked down and moved your car out on the street and Oswald arrived?
ChiefBatchelor. Possibly 30 minutes or 35.
Mr.Griffin. Now after you finished examining the armored car and you talked with Chief Stevenson, did you get a chance to look at the placement of the news personnel, the news media people in the basement?
ChiefBatchelor. Shortly before he came down, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now looking toward the Main Street ramp, how many rows deep, if there was more than one row at all, were the policemen who were blocking the Main Street ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. How many rows deep were the policemen?
Mr.Griffin. I'm sorry, the news people, if you understand what I mean?
ChiefBatchelor. There was about, as I remember it, about two deep along there. Some places there might have been a third man behind, but most about two deep.
Mr.Griffin. Would you come here and mark along the Main Street ramp about how deep these people were?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marking.] There weren't many along there because there were cameras there.
Mr.Griffin. How many people would you estimate were in that area there?
ChiefBatchelor. Oh, there couldn't have been too many in that particular area there. It is only 15 feet wide, maybe 20 or 25 in there, maybe 30.
Mr.Griffin. Now, just before Oswald was brought down, where were the rest of the news people placed?
ChiefBatchelor. They were along here.
Mr.Griffin. That is blocking the garage entrance?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. About how many people would you say were in that area?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know. Altogether there must have been, gee, we had around 70 policemen in that basement altogether, and there must have been 60 or 70 reporters and photographers and press people. They were fairly deep across here. But this is wider and they were two or three deep across there.
Mr.Griffin. You want to mark in there where you have indicated?
ChiefBatchelor. [Marks chart.]
Mr.Griffin. Would you say that they were deeper across the entrance to the garage than they were blocking the Main Street ramp, or were they about the same?
ChiefBatchelor. I wasn't paying too close attention to how deep they were. There was more than one line of them.
Mr.Griffin. There was?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; they were two to three deep across here [marking].
Mr.Griffin. Were there police officers in there also?
ChiefBatchelor. Yes; there was police officers intermingling all along here.
Mr.Griffin. Had you given any instructions to the police officers up to this point as to how they should stand in relationship, where they should be facing?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now after talking with Chief Stevenson, what next happened?
ChiefBatchelor. Almost immediately the car containing Lieutenant Pierce and I believe Sergeant Maxey pulled out of here, and these people had to step back, and they pulled out, and the detective cars were pulled here in on the ramp and backed into position.
Mr.Griffin. Chief, at this point, just before Oswald was brought down, were there any automobiles in the portion of the garage which would be the north half of the garage, do you recall?
ChiefBatchelor. As I recall it, there were one or two vehicles parked back in here, police vehicles.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Were there any police vehicles, and if you don't have any recollection, state that. Do you recall if there were any police vehicles along the railing of the Main Street ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall. If there were, they were back from this entrance. There weren't any in the immediate entrance to the jail door.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall if there were any people other than the people manning these TV cameras, behind the railing?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall that. I don't think there were, because these people here went up to just about where the cameras were. This curved a little bit around here. It wasn't just a straight line. It would curve a little bit like this, then, but they were standing away from the front of those cameras, because those cameras were on a tripod at a level on the floor, which was lower than this ramp level.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as Pierce and Maxey's car went up the ramp, did you watch it go up the ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do as it went up the ramp?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall. I was up here. I was more concerned with this truck here and getting this truck out of there when this thing started.
Mr.Griffin. Did you watch Pierce and Maxey's car go through the line of newsmen?
ChiefBatchelor. I saw it. Iwasn't——
Mr.Griffin. Were you paying any attention?
ChiefBatchelor. Not particularly. I do remember seeing it.
Mr.Griffin. After Pierce and Maxey's car broke through the line of newsmen, what do you remember next happening?
ChiefBatchelor. I remember backing these or pulling up these two detective cars that were to carry Oswald, and one detective pulled up here a little ways, and he had to pull up a little further so this one could get up, and they then backed up. And this one had hardly gotten in place, barely had stopped, when somebody shouted, "Here he comes."
Mr.Griffin. All right, now, are you sure—how certain are you that these two detective cars pulled out after Pierce and Maxey?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't think Pierce and Maxey could have gotten out with those two detective cars where they were.
Mr.Griffin. Sounds pretty good to me.
ChiefBatchelor. While they were in place, they couldn't have pulled around here, because they were blocking this entrance here.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, who drove those two detective cars?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall. Men out of the Homicide Bureau, but I don't know which ones.
Mr.Griffin. Are they listed in this report, do you recall?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't think they are listed in that report. I am pretty sure they are not.
Mr.Griffin. Detective Brown?
ChiefBatchelor. Where do you see that?
Mr.Griffin. It is on page 32. "Stevenson then proceeded across the driveway to the entrance to the garage where Detective C. W. Brown, driving one car, and Detective Dhority, driving the second car, was preparing to pull the cars behind the armored car." Do you remember Brown or Dhority walking to the cars in the basement?
ChiefBatchelor. I wasn't directing my attention to them at the moment they did that.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know or have you heard whether they were sitting in those cars for a long period of time, or a few minutes, or whetherthey——
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know, but I imagine so. I think they came down for that express purpose, after this plan was changed.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you standing as the rear car—that is, the car closest to the exit from the jailoffice——
ChiefBatchelor. I was standing over in here.
Mr.Griffin. Would you place an "X" on the map where you were standing?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, I don't remember exactly where I was standing at the time that they pulled those cars up, but I think I was standing over here, and then moved to this position as they were backing in, because I had been talking to Chief Stevenson just about that time, and we were talking right up in here.
Mr.Griffin. Now at the time you heard the shots fired, would you place on this map where these two automobiles were and where you were standing?
ChiefBatchelor. One car was right here, approximately, and the other car was ahead of it, and I am not drawing this in very good proportion, but this is the order they were in, and I was standing, and this I know in good order, because I was standing about midway of this thing, which was along about the back fender of this car, that I was standing right along here. But these cars were larger than that.
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you cross out that Ford car there and redraw it up where it was?
ChiefBatchelor. I was standing here, and this one was back here more in this position.
Mr.Griffin. Would you put your name where you have made the circle?
ChiefBatchelor. (Marks on chart.)
Mr.Griffin. Now do you remember what other officers or people were around you?
ChiefBatchelor. No; I don't remember who. There was a whole bunch of people.
Mr.Griffin. What happened when you heard the shot fired? What did you do?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, actually before the shot was fired, when I was standing along here, and when somebody shouted, "Here he comes." I started to go to that truck, that armored truck and close the doors on it, the back doors so it could take off. And I turned to do that when I heard the shot. I hadn't taken over a step or two over to the door when he was shot.
Mr.Griffin. Then what did you do?
ChiefBatchelor. I turned around and looked back and came over there. There was a whole group of people had him down. It was abig——
Mr.Griffin. Had Ruby down?
ChiefBatchelor. Had Ruby down. They had pulled Oswald into the jail office, and then pulled Ruby in behind him.
I went into the jail office to look at them, and they had Ruby down on the floor on his back and was trying to handcuff him.
Mr.Griffin. Let's focus on the time when they had Ruby down on the ground out there on the ramp, the ramp area. Where did you stand at that point?
ChiefBatchelor. I stood off in the crowd. I didn't even see what was going on. There was such a crowd.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear Ruby say anything at that point?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear any of the police officers say anything?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir; not when I walked right up there to it. But I did hear someone shout, "Jack, don't you so-and-so," but this was before they got him down. I mean, this was almost simultaneous with the shot.
Mr.Griffin. Did you follow Ruby and Oswald into the jail office then?
ChiefBatchelor. After a little bit, a minute or two after, I remained in the jail office and asked Lieutenant Wiggins if they had called an ambulance, and he said they had.
I walked over and looked at Oswald, and this intern had come in and was giving him some pressure on his lower rib section.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you see Ruby at that time?
ChiefBatchelor. I saw him on the floor. I couldn't see him too well. There was several men on top. He was still struggling in the jail office, but they had already gotten the gun away from him and they were trying to get him handcuffed and get him down and laying still, but he was fighting them.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear him say anything?
ChiefBatchelor. No; I don't recall anything he said.
Mr.Griffin. Did you hear the officers say anything to him?
ChiefBatchelor. No.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain there?
ChiefBatchelor. Just a few minutes. The ambulance came almost immediately. It was just—I walked out of there before the ambulance came and walked back. Someone shouted right after this happened, and there was a lot of confusion, and someone shouted, "Don't let anybody out."
There were a bunch of reporters that started running like they were frightened. I suppose they were running to telephones, but they tried to run up the Main Street ramp, and I remember very clearly the officer at the top of the ramp pulling his gun and said, "Get back down."
They turned around and walked back down, but most of them escaped through the corridor. Not out the ramp, but went out through the corridor.
Mr.Griffin. This is the corridor that leads from the record room to Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. Well, yes. They escaped out the corridor off the hallway that leads in front of the jail office into the Records Bureau, and then to Commerce Street.
Mr.Griffin. Did they escape out Commerce Street?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know where they went from there, whether they went upstairs to use the telephone, or out in the street. But there would have been nobody over there that heard the command not to let them out. This was kind of a spontaneous command.
Mr.Griffin. What percentage of people would you say got out of the basement? News media people got out of the basement that way?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know. They scattered pretty quickly. Still a lot hung around after it was over. I would say half, at least, got out that way.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you in the jail office when Ruby was taken upstairs in the elevator?
ChiefBatchelor. Was I in the jail office when he was taken upstairs?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you?
ChiefBatchelor. I went as soon as the ambulance came and got him, I ran up the ramp and told him to get that truck out of there, that it was blocking the entrance to the ramp, and then I left and went upstairs and told Chief Curry what happened. By the time I got up there, somebody called him and he knew what happened.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do next?
ChiefBatchelor. Lord, I don't remember what I did next. We sat there kind of dumbfounded for a while.
Mr.Griffin. Did there come a time during the rest of the day when you talked with Ruby?
ChiefBatchelor. I never did talk with Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall the rumors, stories that began to come in about how Ruby got down into the basement?
ChiefBatchelor. In the course of the next day or two we heard lots of rumors that he had a press card. This was the prevailing rumor, that he had a press card, but there wasn't a press card found on him.
Mr.Griffin. I am trying to direct your attention to the events fairly close after the time of, the time Oswald was shot. What did you do in connection with attempting to find out how Ruby got down in that basement?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't know that I did anything specifically to try to find that out. We began to think in terms of an overall investigation into the matter.
Mr.Griffin. Did Chief Curry convene any sort of meeting or gather together any of the top officers to discuss this?
ChiefBatchelor. He discussed it with Lumpkin and Stevenson and I. I don't recall exactly when this happened, whether it happened just—I am sure it didn't happen just immediately after it happened, because there were obvious things that would take place first, and that would be the investigation, that homicide would carry on, an interrogation of Ruby himself.
We even got some rumors the next day that some of our officers had borrowed money from a bank and Ruby was a cosigner on the note, and we ran a check at every bank in Dallas, but the banks where this—the most probable one was the Republic Bank. We ran a check there by sending the name of everybody that was in that basement over to the bank, and having them check for us and see if they had any notes on these people.
We also checked with, I believe, the Mercantile, and we checked with the Oak Cliff Bank and Trust Co., because Ruby happened to live out in that area.
We didn't know whether he had an account, but none of them found anything to date.
Mr.Griffin. This meeting or a little conference that you referred to that you and Curry and Lumpkin and Stevenson had, about how long after Oswald was shot did this occur?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't remember whether that was that day or the next day, but it resulted in Chief Curry pulling some men out of the special service division with Captain Jones in charge, and we had about six men on the team besides the captain to investigate every aspect of this, which was in terms of locating all of the people that were assigned down there, locating as many of the press as they knew were down there, and getting statements from all of these people. Then also we discovered this matter of this money order, and we followed that thing out.
Mr.Griffin. Did you personally talk with Officer Dean at any time on the Sunday that Oswald was shot? After Ruby shot Oswald, did you talk to Dean?
ChiefBatchelor. Dean said something to me, and I don't remember whether it was Sunday or not. I believe it was Sunday afternoon, sometime, or evening, to the effect that he had been up and talked to Ruby with Mr. Sorrels, I believe was present there, and that Ruby told him he came down that ramp.
He told him that an officer, that a car came in, and an officer stopped and talked with the fellows in the car, and while he was talking to them, he walked down there.
There is nothing to indicate that the officer did talk to the officers that went out other than maybe to speak to them. I mean, but it appears evident now that while the officer did walk away momentarily a few feet from the entrance is when he got in.
Mr.Griffin. When Dean made this statement to you, did you know that he had spoken to a newspaper reporter also?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether this conversation you had with Dean was before or after he spoke to the newspaper people?
ChiefBatchelor. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have an occasion to talk with an officer by the name of Newman that day?
ChiefBatchelor. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have occasion to talk to Officer Vaughn on that day?
ChiefBatchelor. No; over on top of the ramp?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
ChiefBatchelor. No; as a matter of fact, I never have talked with Vaughn. And I wasn't talking to Dean in the nature of interrogating. He voluntarily told me this.
Mr.Griffin. Was anybody else present when Dean told you that?
ChiefBatchelor. I don't recall that there was. I don't think there was.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where this conversation occurred?
ChiefBatchelor. No; it was there in the city hall, but I don't remember exactly where. It was probably up on the third floor.
Mr.Griffin. Now I am going to mark for identification, "Dallas, Tex., Chief Batchelor, March 23, 1964, Exhibit 5002."
Can you tell us briefly what that is, Chief?
ChiefBatchelor. That is a monthly assignment board or bulletin, which has the names of all the members of the police department in it and their assignments for the month of November 1963.
Mr.Griffin. Is that a true and accurate roster of the people who were employed in the department on the day that Ruby shot Oswald?
ChiefBatchelor. It would be, with the exception of any few that might have been reassigned, or any few that might have, in the course of the month, been transferred from one division to another, which occurs frequently. But for the most part it is correct.
Mr.Griffin. Or, also a few that had been hired?
ChiefBatchelor. Or a few that had been hired during that month. They are not on there; yes, sir.