Mr.Griffin. J. Charles Goolsby?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. W. E. Chambers.
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Captain Frank Martin.
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Lieutenant W. Wiggins?
Mr.Beaty. No; he wasn't. He was a jail supervisor. He was already down.
Mr.Griffin. R. C. Wagner?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. That is the complete list.
Mr.Beaty. They must have been on two elevators.
Mr.Griffin. Now, have these men that you saw come down, Harrison, Cutchshaw, Watson, Miller, Lowery, Goolsby, Chambers, and Martin, were all those people attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Beaty. No; Chambers is forgery. Goolsby is juvenile. Lowery is juvenile. Wagner, I believe, is forgery. Watson is auto theft. Harrison is juvenile. I don't know where Miller works.
Mr.Griffin. How about Cutchshaw?
Mr.Beaty. Cutchshaw is juvenile. Hutchinson and Combest are both special services.
Mr.Griffin. But Wagner was not in the elevator?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; he was with them.
Mr.Griffin. He came down in the elevator?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; Wiggins wasn't.
Mr.Griffin. Wiggins wasn't in the elevator. Now, when these men got off the elevator, what did they do? Where did they go?
Mr.Beaty. Walked straight out there in front of the elevator to the windows by—are you familiar with that place down there?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I am.
Mr.Beaty. What I call it, where you go through that.
Mr.Griffin. Might as well call it the window in front of the jail office, if that is where it was.
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to sketch a diagram of the basement. Did they go through the swinging doors?
Mr.Beaty. We waited right about here.
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating just about at the first window of the jail office as you come from the elevator?
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. The elevator we are talking about is the general elevator that services all floors and is available to anybody that comes into the building?
Mr.Beaty. We are not talking about the jail elevator?
Mr.Griffin. That's right.
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you all congregated outside that window, what took place?
Mr.Beaty. Within 5 or 10 minutes, Captain Jones came through and spoke to me, and we walked through the small hall by the jail office window into the double doors and he instructed us to stand on either side of that hallway, which would be just outside the double doors as you enter into the basement parking area.
Mr.Griffin. Now, Mr. Beaty, I am going to hand you my pen. I am going to ask you if you will mark on this diagram where was your understanding that people were to place themselves.
Mr.Beaty. Where they were assigned?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; what assignments did Jones make at that point?
Mr.Beaty. He said, "Divide yourself up about half and half. Half on this side and half on this side."
Mr.Griffin. Now, you have drawn a line on either side, straight line on either side of the hallway that leads out between the swinging doors and the Main Street and Commerce Street ramp.
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell officers to stand any place except along those two walls where you have drawn the line?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir. He instructed us to, when they brought Oswald out of the smaller swinging door in the outside hall, to make a path for him and be sure that nobody got to him or slowed him down. In other words, indicating that—I don't remember whether he said to get to him or not. He just said keep the people back so we can get him through, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this: What was your understanding that you people were to do, if anything, when Oswald got abreast of you?
Mr.Beaty. To keep the people back. Of course, over here where I was, there was nobody behind me.
Mr.Griffin. Would you place on the chart where it was you were stationed? Put an "X" there.
Mr.Beaty. [Complies.]
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you again. As Oswald moved out of the jail office and approached the car that he was to get in, did you have any understanding as to any action that you were supposed to take?
Mr.Beaty. Like I said before, of course, there was nobody at that time, we thought, but the press and police officers down there, and at that time we were, television cameras were set up across the ramp behind a railing about 4 foot tall.
Mr.Griffin. Will you place the TV cameras?
Mr.Beaty. Somewhere right there.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you to put the TV cameras in a square.
Mr.Beaty. [Complies.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, were there only two TV cameras in the basement?
Mr.Beaty. The best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall if there was a TV camera in the garage entranceway to the garage?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I sure don't. There were so many of them, and guys had them on their shoulders, and little tape recorders, and one thing all over the joint.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am talking only about TV cameras, the big things that set on a tripod as opposed to little movie cameras.
Mr.Beaty. They had some of the shoulder cameras.
Mr.Griffin. I wasn't thinking of them. I am just talking about the stationary cameras.
Mr.Beaty. I suppose I didn't pay any attention to them at all.
Mr.Griffin. I am only talking now about the instructions that you remember that came from Captain Jones. Do you have any idea as to what you were to do when Oswald got abreast of you?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir. He told us we would keep this aisle clear, and at this time the cameras were run in and out of this door and something through this door, and around here, and then he returned in about 3 or 4 minutes later and said, "All you people from the press move back into the driveway." And I will indicate it by a dotted line across here.
Mr.Griffin. Okay.
Mr.Beaty. And over into the driveway entrance of the parking area from the Commerce Street, Main Street ramp. Would you want a dotted line?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Let me ask you a question about that. What is your best estimate of the number of people that were over in the garage entrance area?
Mr.Beaty. Counting the people here behind the camera?
Mr.Griffin. No; not counting the people behind the camera.
Mr.Beaty. Right along in here?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; along the dotted line.
Mr.Beaty. Thirty-five or forty.
Mr.Griffin. Was that congested?
Mr.Beaty. No; it wasn't. You can get that many people in. It is a pretty wide area. Looks like it might be 50 feet across there, if this is 15.
Mr.Griffin. Now, across that 50-foot area, was there just a single line across there?
Mr.Beaty. They could be doubled or tripled. They were all scattered out, of course. But there seemed like there was some congestion right around there and behind the cameras.
Mr.Griffin. Will you draw a half circle in the area or quarter circle in the area where the congestion was?
Mr.Beaty. Right along in here, best I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did there appear to be people standing behind the TV cameras?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Were there people standing up above the TV cameras, if you recall?
Mr.Beaty. I don't know what they would stand on. There is nothing for them to stand on unless they had a box or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how did the congestion in this area that you have indicated by a half circle which runs from about the position of the TV camera close to the Main Street side, to about the middle of the entrance to the garage, how did the congestion in that area compare to the congestion along the Main Street ramp or across the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Beaty. The best I remember, most of the people that moved out of this area moved into this area here. Then they moved over here. It looked like there might have been as many here, or more, as there were over here. There must have been a hundred all together all scattered out all in the basement, and they wouldn't stay still. They would mill around as long as they didn'tget past this line here, and we weren't too concerned with them, because they had uniform officers out here in the basement and they brought those down earlier and shook down all the cars a time or two, and I don't know what was going on out here.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how many uniformed officers did you see stationed back here in the basement area?
Mr.Beaty. Earlier?
Mr.Griffin. No; at the time Oswald came out.
Mr.Beaty. I didn't see any.
Mr.Griffin. Is it possible that there might not have been officers there?
Mr.Beaty. No; there were some earlier, about 50.
Mr.Griffin. About 50 in there? Did you see them search the basement?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did they search the basement, can you remember, before or after you got the instructions from Captain Jones?
Mr.Beaty. I couldn't remember. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Were you down in the basement?
Mr.Beaty. What do you call the basement now, this or this?
Mr.Griffin. I am talking about the whole bottom area, all the way from the elevators that come down from the upstairs.
Mr.Beaty. After the instructions, because I wouldn't be out here.
Mr.Griffin. Were you, prior to the time that your friends planned to go out for coffee, down in the basement at all?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. But you were down in the basement at the time the search of the basement was conducted?
Mr.Beaty. This was a good hour and a half or something like that, later on.
Mr.Griffin. The basement was searched substantially after you got down there?
Mr.Beaty. Yes. And I understand that this was the second time it happened.
In other words, well, I heard somebody say we have swept the basement out twice already and I don't remember who said this. This is to indicate that they searched the cars.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall who was in charge of the search that you saw take place?
Mr.Beaty. I would assume that since it was uniformed officers, it would be Captain Talbert, because they were all uniform officers.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember whether or not Sergeant Dean was in charge of that search?
Mr.Beaty. No; Sergeant Dean was there and so was Sergeant Putnam, and I don't think you could say one was in charge or the other one was in charge. It was a joint operation. I would say Captain Talbert was in charge. And, actually, he wasn't down there. He would drop by and leave a few instructions, some for Dean and some for Putnam and the like.
Mr.Griffin. During the period that you were down in the basement, did you see cars going in and out, coming up and down the ramp?
Mr.Beaty. Saw one leave, it was a squad car, and it left and went this way.
Mr.Griffin. Up the Main Street ramp. Did you see any other cars coming in the basement? Were officers coming in on routine duty and so forth?
Mr.Beaty. I am sure there were, but I don't remember whether they were or not. I know that they closed it from 9 o'clock on, but I can't remember exactly what time they shut it off.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you first walked out in here in front of the swinging doors toward the ramp, do you recall if the TV lights were on?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; they weren't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall when the armored car came in?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall if the TV lights were on at that time?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I am quite sure that they took some picture of it, but I don't remember whether, and there again which lights are you talking about?Man, they were everywhere down there. And the armored car backed down this ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Commerce Street?
Mr.Beaty. Commerce Street ramp. And there were people with cameras on the Main Street ramp back over here, back behind this 55-foot entrance to the garage. They were everywhere.
Mr.Griffin. Was there some sort of floodlights set up in connection with the TV cameras?
Mr.Beaty. I am sure there were. They were awful bright. I don't know whether they were hooked onto the cameras or something. They brought in this material, but the best I remember, there was a bunch of them over in this area.
Mr.Griffin. Behind the camera?
Mr.Beaty. Well, not necessarily. They could have been under or over. You couldn't hardly tell.
Mr.Griffin. Now, at the time that the armored car came down the ramp, did you see what happened around that armored car?
Mr.Beaty. Like what now?
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anything that happened?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. You saw the armored car come down?
Mr.Beaty. It took them quite a while to get the armored car down.
Mr.Griffin. Did you actually see it come down?
Mr.Beaty. Not the whole time.
Mr.Griffin. As you looked up toward that armored car, were you able to see people around that armored car from where you were standing?
Mr.Beaty. Well, tell me when you are talking about?
Mr.Griffin. At anytime.
Mr.Beaty. It took it about 5 minutes to back down, because it was too tight for the ramp, and they didn't get it all the way in there. They were very, very cautious and careful, and it parked up the ramp, and I don't remember seeing anybody around.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall Chief Batchelor coming down into the basement and going up to the armored car?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall any police officers up in the area of the armored car?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall whether there was an officer—did you see an officer stationed up at the top of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir; I couldn't see that way.
Mr.Griffin. Is that because of the police that were stationed that you didn't have a straight view of the ramp?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as you looked over in this direction over here, could you see any police officers over in there? The place that I am indicating is in the direction of the Main Street ramp. Did you see any police officers?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir; some of those officers I mentioned, I don't remember exactly how they were stationed, which ones. The plainclothes officers were standing on this side here.
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell us—I am not asking you who you subsequently learned was over there, but who you actually remember seeing in that line?
Mr.Beaty. I don't know. I couldn't tell you. The only reason I could on this report I made, I remember who all was down there. That I could remember. And I remember one was on our side, and I assumed the others were on the other side.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as you look over here toward the TVcameras——
Mr.Beaty. I am not looking over there much.
Mr.Griffin. If, when you did on occasions look over there, could you see people around the TV cameras?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any trouble distinguishing their faces?
Mr.Beaty. After the lights were on, you couldn't see nothing.
Mr.Griffin. After the lights were on, you couldn't see anything over there?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall whether or not Captain Jones instructed the men that when Oswald was brought out from the jail office to where you men were standing, that you were supposed to begin to start walking alongside of Oswald toward the armored car?
Mr.Beaty. He told us to keep the path open, and then he changed this detail here and pushed them all back.
Mr.Griffin. If all of the members of the press were along the Main Street ramp and were over behind, roughly behind the railing, or at least behind the TV camera in the direction of the garage area, what function did you people who were stationed along where you have marked your "X," that wall that you have your "X," and up the Commerce Street ramp, what function were you people going to have?
Mr.Beaty. I couldn't tell you. I couldn't tell you.
Mr.Griffin. You certainly didn't expect that you were going to have any trouble from newspaper people, because you were all backed up against the wall, weren't you?
Mr.Beaty. I couldn't tell you, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, before Ruby shot Oswald, what did you do?
Mr.Beaty. When?
Mr.Griffin. Before Ruby shot Oswald.
Mr.Beaty. When we first, it occurred to me at the time that—you don't have policemen for 15 years, you don't have to sit down and draw them a diagram to have them cover somebody, and Captain Jones said make the way open, and it occurred to me that if we had to move around that corner, fine. At that time there were people all around here and out in the driveway.
Mr.Griffin. At the time Captain Jones set you up, there had been people there?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; there had.
Mr.Griffin. You then displaced news people, is that right?
Mr.Beaty. No; whenever Captain Jones come back down, and I think he had Sergeant Putnam or Dean, and he instructed them all to get back there.
Mr.Griffin. The area you are pointing to is on the opposite side from where you were?
Mr.Beaty. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Okay.
Mr.Beaty. If you go on with your interview, I can tell you what my opinion is why we was there.
Mr.Griffin. That is what I want you to tell me, what your opinion was.
Mr.Beaty. Well, of course, the people from the press, they brought Oswald out here, they all, Captain Jones asked them to please don't ask him no questions, and let's get this over with as fast as we can. Those are not his exact words, but that is what he meant. So, we all moved back behind this line, and as they brought Oswald out to just about the entrance to the Commerce Street and Main Street ramp right alonghere——
Mr.Griffin. Put a circle where Oswald was.
Mr.Beaty. The three of them were there along here.
Mr.Griffin. All right. I have written "Oswald."
Mr.Beaty. And, by the way, after that they moved these people back, these officers on the north side of the hallway were moved out into the ramp area here.
Mr.Griffin. These started to move out?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir; they did.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how about the people on your side?
Mr.Beaty. There was only about four of us over there.
Mr.Griffin. You people stayed where you were?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this. Do you think these people who were on the ramp side, which you call the northside——
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir; I would call it the north side.
Mr.Griffin. What you have called the north side opposite where you were standing, do you think those people began to move out sort of instinctively?
Mr.Beaty. No; they moved out before he got out there.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Beaty. And I am sure that there were some more officers that, I don't know, that were along here. They had two people stationed out here, a reserve anda——
Mr.Griffin. Put an "X" where these reserves were.
Mr.Beaty. To keep these people from coming through here.
Mr.Griffin. This was between the swinging doors and the main elevators?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right, were there two reserve officers?
Mr.Beaty. No; they had one reserve and one officer stationed here.
Mr.Griffin. All right.
Mr.Beaty. Yes, and before they brought Oswald out, there was some photographers in this area inside the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. You have placed circles in the jail office where there were photographers?
Mr.Beaty. And they were removed by a uniformed officer and asked to come out here, or out here, or back here, and I recall some of them went this way and went on out and took their place.
Mr.Griffin. Some of them went toward the garage area and some on the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Beaty. Some came back through these double doors, and were standing along this hallway like they might be going to try to photograph through the window. I remember one guy had a big shoulder camera and one at—at one of these windows here.
Mr.Griffin. So, is it fair to say that one of the functions you people served in standing along the wall that you were on, was to make sure that as these photographers cleared out the jail office, they didn't line up along the wall?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; also, to double check this double door after he went by, and somebody might have gotten instructions, I don't remember whether they did or not.
Mr.Griffin. Now, detective, after Oswald was shot, did you go into the jail office?
Mr.Beaty. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go upstairs with Ruby?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do after Ruby shot Oswald? After Ruby was taken upstairs? What did you do?
Mr.Beaty. Captain Jones said, "Do you have a car out," and I told him, "Yes, sir."
He said, "Get about five of these officers," and I don't remember which one, "and go to Parkland Hospital and help them with security." And within 5 minutes after he was shot, we were on our way to Parkland.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if Sergeant Dean was out there?
Mr.Beaty. I don't think he was. He might have been. I didn't remember seeing him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember if he went in your group?
Mr.Beaty. No; I am pretty sure of both of the detectives in our group.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain at Parkland Hospital?
Mr.Beaty. Let's see, probably after 2 o'clock, maybe 3 o'clock that afternoon.
Mr.Griffin. While you were out at Parkland Hospital, did you hear any rumors about how Ruby got down to the basement?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. When you got back to the police department, did you hear any rumors back there as to how Ruby got into the basement?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How soon after you got back to the police station were youasked to prepare a report to Chief Curry? Don't look at this. I want you to do this from your own recollection.
Mr.Beaty. Probably the next day. I don't even remember. I couldn't tell you. Somebody said, you got to write a report. But this was the second or third one. We wrote a little report along as we went to kind of, each day we have a daily report we turn in.
Mr.Griffin. Did you write a report at the end of the day?
Mr.Beaty. I am not sure whether I did that or not.
Mr.Griffin. Would you do this. After you leave, would you check back at the police department and find out if you did write a daily report.
Mr.Beaty. If I did, it would be a special assignment. It wouldn't have anything to do with the narcotics.
Mr.Griffin. Would it have any details of what you did?
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to mark this map we have been working with, "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, March 26, 1964, Exhibit 5039." Now, is this Exhibit 5039 the document that you have been making marks on during this discussion?
Mr.Beaty. Yes; it is.
Mr.Griffin. I wonder if you would sign that and then date it?
Mr.Beaty. [Signs and dates.] What is the date, the 26th?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. All right, I am going to mark the interview report by Agents Dallman and Quigley of the interview with you on December 3, 1963, as "Dallas, Tex., Detective Beaty, 3-26-64——"
Mr.Beaty. That happened in Garland.
Mr.Griffin. But we are marking it here in Dallas.
Mr.Beaty. Okay.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark what purports to be a copy of a letter which you prepared to go to Chief Curry, which is dated November 27, 1963, and mark that "Dallas, Texas, Detective Beaty, 3-26-64, Exhibit 5041." I want you to look at 5041 and tell me if you had a chance to read that over?
Mr.Beaty. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is that a true and accurate copy of a letter that you sent to Chief Curry?
Mr.Beaty. That looks like it might be; yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. You have read over both the interview report, Exhibit 5040, and this letter, Exhibit 5041? Other than the changes you have already made on Exhibit 5040, and the testimony which you have already given here today, are there any additions or corrections that you would want to make in either of these?
Mr.Beaty. Not that I can remember or think of. I have thought about it some since it happened to see if I could remember anything that I didn't tell the FBI agents, and I can't think of a thing. Actually, I didn't see a whole lot of the actual shooting.
Mr.Griffin. Is there anything that you would want to tell the Commission that you think would be important to us in connection with our investigation?
Mr.Beaty. I don't think of a thing. You have covered it pretty well.
Mr.Griffin. Did you and I have any interview of any sort prior to the time we took this deposition.
Mr.Beaty. You talked to me in the hall and said read this, is all.
Mr.Griffin. I handed you Exhibits 5040 and 5041, but other than giving it to you and asking you to read it before the interview?
Mr.Beaty. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Have you been interviewed by any other member of the Commission staff?
Mr.Beaty. You are speaking of the Warren Commission?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Beaty. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, other than the interview that you had with Dallman and Quigley on December 3, 1963, do you recall whether you were interviewed by any other Federal agent?
Mr.Beaty. No; I am pretty sure I wasn't.
The testimony of Alvin R. Brock was taken at 9:30 p.m., on March 26, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Mr. Alvin R. Brock, the patrolman, Dallas police department. Mr. Brock, my name is Leon Hubert, I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, joint resolution of Congress 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Brock. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report on the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, as to you Mr. Brock, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Brock, you have appeared here today by virtue of a general request made by J. Lee Rankin, general counsel of the President's Commission, to Chief Curry, asking him to make his men available. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice if he wishes to do so. And now I ask you if you are willing to waive the 3-day notice?
Mr.Brock. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Will you stand then and raise your right hand so that I may swear you?
Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Brock. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Please state your name?
Mr.Brock. Alvin R. Brock.
Mr.Hubert. Your age?
Mr.Brock. Twenty-five.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you reside?
Mr.Brock. 207 East Place, Ennis, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. What is your employment?
Mr.Brock. Patrolman, for the city of Dallas, police department.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been on the Dallas police department?
Mr.Brock. Three and a half years.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to that time, how did you make your living?
Mr.Brock. Worked as assembler in aircraft.
Mr.Hubert. Assembler—aircraft—what?
Mr.Brock. As an assembler of aircrafts.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you work at that?
Mr.Brock. Once I worked for approximately a year, 10 months, Temco, and before that approximately a year and a half at Chance Vought.
Mr.Hubert. I guess prior to that you were going to school?
Mr.Brock. Prior to that I worked at Lone Star Gas for approximately a year, and high school before that.
Mr.Hubert. You graduated from high school?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, what particular part of the police department are you in?
Mr.Brock. Radio patrol.
Mr.Hubert. That is under what captain?
Mr.Brock. I work for Captain Talbert.
Mr.Hubert. Cecil Talbert?
Mr.Brock. I don't know his first name.
Mr.Hubert. Cecil Talbert. And are you in one of the prowl cars?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I'm going to ask you some questions about November the 24th. What time did you go on duty that day?
Mr.Brock. 7:30 a.m.
Mr.Hubert. Then your shift would haveended——
Mr.Brock. 3:30.
Mr.Hubert. P.M.?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you report at 7:30?
Mr.Brock. Well, assembly room, I guess is what you call it. We all reported there.
Mr.Hubert. At the Dallas police department?
Mr.Brock. In the basement of the city hall; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Then you are assigned to your cars and go cruising?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And you had communication by radio, twomen——
Mr.Brock. We were working two men.
Mr.Hubert. Who was with you that day?
Mr.Brock. M. L. Wise.
Mr.Hubert. Did you actually get out on the streets and start prowling?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr.Brock. We received a call from the dispatcher to call 511, that is radio patrol office.
Mr.Hubert. And did you do that?
Mr.Brock. And we called them and they advised us to come on down there as soon as we could.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you get down there?
Mr.Brock. It was a few minutes after 9. I don't know exactly.
Mr.Hubert. What prowl car were you driving? Do you remember the number of it?
Mr.Brock. We were working squad 71. That is the number of the squad, not the car.
Mr.Hubert. Do you have a different car number every day or drive the same car usually?
Mr.Brock. You mean thesame——
Mr.Hubert. Talking about squad 71—I mean, the automobile has a number on it, doesn't it?
Mr.Brock. Yes; I don't recall what the number—we usually have the same one.
Mr.Hubert. Same car? What did you do? Park your car inthe——
Mr.Brock. We took it down there and parked it in the alley there just north of the—on Commerce at Pearl Street, and walked on down to the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. You parked it on Pearl Street, or in the alley?
Mr.Brock. In the alley, just north of Commerce, just off Pearl Street.
Mr.Hubert. That is the alleyway that runs from Pearl up to the back of the city hall building and then makes a right to Main Street?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Has the form of an L-shape, is that right?
Mr.Brock. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You put it in that alleyway?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you drive it all the way up that alleyway up there?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; it was down close to the street there.
Mr.Hubert. But, you walked up the alley?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; we walked back out on the street and then down to the building andthen——
Mr.Hubert. You didn't go in the building through the back door.
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Through that back door?
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you try the back door?
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you all parked your car near Pearl Street and didn't even walk up or ride up the alley at all?
Mr.Brock. Oh, no; we walked back out and went down the street sidewalk.
Mr.Hubert. Went down Pearl Street to Commerce?
Mr.Brock. Went down Commerce, cut across a parking lot to Commerce, down to the city hall that way.
Mr.Hubert. And you say it was about what time?
Mr.Brock. A few minutes after 9.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Brock. I don't know exactly.
Mr.Hubert. Whom did you report to? What did you do?
Mr.Brock. We reported to 511 patrol office, to Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr.Hubert. That is Rio Pierce?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Rio Pierce, I think you call him?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What orders did he give you?
Mr.Brock. He told us just to sit down there for a few minutes, until they decided what they wanted us to do. Then about 9:20, I guess it was, he told me to go down to the basement and report to Sergeant Dean and Sergeant Putnam.
Mr.Hubert. That is Patrick Dean, I think?
Mr.Brock. P. T. Dean.
Mr.Hubert. Did you report to him?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Then what happened?
Mr.Brock. Sergeant Putnam assigned me on what they call the elevator area there, there in the basement at the east end of the basement.
Mr.Hubert. About what time were you posted there?
Mr.Brock. It would be about 9:30, I would imagine.
Mr.Hubert. What were your orders?
Mr.Brock. To not let anyone in except police officers and members of the press.
Mr.Hubert. Into what?
Mr.Brock. Into the basement area.
Mr.Hubert. From what?
Mr.Brock. Well, about from anywhere—see there was an elevator there that goes to the next floor on it—in the municipal building.
Mr.Hubert. You are talking about the service elevator, are you?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir; there is a service elevator, and the other elevators, they were not working, but the service elevator was the one.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know they weren't working?
Mr.Brock. Well, I presumed they wasn't. They never did open the time I was—actual time I was there.
Mr.Hubert. Were you aware of a fire staircase in that general area?
Mr.Brock. There was a, I believe it is, right to the—right around the corner from the elevators onthe——
Mr.Hubert. Be toyour——
Mr.Brock. Be to the left of the elevators, I guess it would be then.
Mr.Hubert. If you were facing the east elevator?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir; I was in a position where I could watch it and the elevator, too.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I want—you know, it won't show up on here, so, I want to show you a map or chart of the basement area and in order to identify it so that the record may show that we are both talking about the same thing, I am going to ask you to sign this with me, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Texas, March 26, 1964." This will be Exhibit 5113, deposition of A. R. Brock. I am signing my name beneath that and I'll ask you to sign your name just for the purposes of identification. And now have a look at the map and I would just like you to put, not one spot, because obviously, you can't stand in one spot, but just sort of draw by making sort of an area, circle or oblong just the way you walked and watched.
Mr.Brock. What I done, I was in a position here. I didn't move out of it.
Mr.Hubert. All right, you can mark it then. Just put a circle.
Mr.Brock. I would stay in this position where I could watch the stairs and the elevator, too.
Mr.Hubert. You are facing, most of the time, toward Main Street?
Mr.Brock. Well, I would be facing one or the other there.
Mr.Hubert. Where you marked the circle, I am drawing a line from it, then I am writing, "Position of A. R. Brock during the time he was guarding elevators and staircase." Right?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it by a line to the circle that you drew showing your position. I think you have testified that all the time you were there, the regular service elevators, which are on this chart, denoted as elevators Nos. 1 and 2, weren't working at all?
Mr.Brock. They never opened them the entire time.
Mr.Hubert. Did anybody go up or down the staircase here, which I am marking by putting in "X"?
Mr.Brock. No one went in or downstairs on the staircase.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever—did you observe this first aid station?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody come in or go out of that the whole time you were there?
Mr.Brock. At the time that I was assigned there, the doctor was in the first aid station, and Sergeant Putnam contacted him and told him he would have to leave the basement area.
Mr.Hubert. So, he got out?
Mr.Brock. No one entered after that.
Mr.Hubert. By the way, I think you stated the time that you were posted, but let's repeat it to be sure.
Mr.Brock. I think it was about 9:30.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there how long?
Mr.Brock. Oh, I believe it was 10:45 when I left there.
Mr.Hubert. All right, now. Was there any—any people either entered or left this service elevator during the time you were there?
Mr.Brock. When I first got down there there were three city employees and the elevator operator standing there at the door of the elevator around in front, looking around, just seeing what was going on and shortly after I got there, I told them they would have to leave the basement.
Mr.Hubert. Were they in some kind of a janitorial uniform so that you could tell that they were employees?
Mr.Brock. I have seen them before.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know their names?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. Men and women?
Mr.Brock. There was one woman. I haven't seen her before, but from what I gather, the way she was talking to the others, she was a telephone operator there at the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. White woman?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were they all white people?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; there was one building engineer. Engineer, I believe, is what he was called—a white man. There was a Negro, two Negroes, one was the elevator operator, one parked cars in the basement there.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you made them all go upstairs?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did they come down any more?
Mr.Brock. The elevator came down one other time. Sergeant Putnam brought one of the TV men over there, wanted to go up the fourth—fifth floor to do some kind of work with the equipment there, and the elevator come and picked him up and went up and brought him back in a few minutes, and that was the only person went up or down the elevator.
Mr.Hubert. As long as you were there?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you all give the elevator operator any instructions about what he was to do?
Mr.Brock. We told him to take it up on the first floor and not bring it back in the basement, that is, open the door of it in the basement.
Mr.Hubert. That was after the TV man had been brought up and down?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, at that point, after the TV man had been brought up and down, he was issued instructions, "Now, don't come down here any more."
Mr.Brock. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And all the time you stayed there he didn't?
Mr.Brock. It didn't come down any more.
Mr.Hubert. Who got off of that spot at 10:45?
Mr.Brock. Sergeant Putnam.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he put you after that?
Mr.Brock. He assigned me over to a traffic intersection where the auto was going to take to the city jail—county jail.
Mr.Hubert. And you went and helped there?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You drove?
Mr.Brock. My partner drove; M. L. Wise drove my car.
Mr.Hubert. Dropped you off?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he drop you off?
Mr.Brock. Elm and Ervay.
Mr.Hubert. And you stayed there for how long?
Mr.Brock. Until about 11:30.
Mr.Hubert. Who relieved you then?
Mr.Brock. 11:30 my partner picked me up and reported to Parkland.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay at Parkland? What time did you get there and what time did you leave, we'll put it that way.
Mr.Brock. I would just be guessing. Stayed there probably an hour or hour and a half.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see any reserve officers around?
Mr.Brock. Where?
Mr.Hubert. Parkland?
Mr.Brock. There was lots of officers out there. I don't remember seeing any reserve officers out there.
Mr.Hubert. Actually, can you tell the difference from the uniforms?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What? The badge?
Mr.Brock. They have a patch on their arm that says, "Dallas Police Reserve Officer," or "Reserve Officer," of some sort and they don't carry guns. All they carry is a nightstick.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Newman?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; I don't. I don't know any of them, I don't guess, by name, that I can recall right now.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Did you see another officer on duty in the basement but closer to the ramp that runs between Main and Commerce?
Mr.Brock. There was a, I believe, a reserve officer standing somewhere in this area.
Mr.Hubert. Now, the arrow points—let the record show that the arrow pointed to by the witness is being marked by me with a circle, and I am writing, "Position of Reserve Officer, as testified to by A. R. Brock," and I am putting a circle around that language and connecting it with this smaller circle. Do you know that reserve officer's name?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; I just noticed him there. Ididn't——
Mr.Hubert. Did he stay there about the same time you did?
Mr.Brock. I believe he was still there or somewhere in that area when I left, and there was another reserve officer assigned in this area here [indicating],because he was walking around, back and forth in this area around the staircase and around where I was assigned, also.
Mr.Hubert. Well, suppose I draw a line, I will start the line with "1,"and——
Mr.Brock. I would say he went over in this area rather than come up on it this way.
Mr.Hubert. He went out to about the place marked "2" and I am putting the number "1" and "2" in a circle. Now, the line "1" and "2" is where you saw this reserve officer walking up and down?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. But, you don't know his name?
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was he there when you first got there?
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. He came later? Was he there when you left?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I think you have read these two statements?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I want to mark them for identification as follows: "An FBI report of an interview of you made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin on December 4, 1963, for identification. I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964. Exhibit No. 5114, deposition of A. R. Brock." And signing my name underneath it. It has two pages, and so, I am placing my initials in the left-hand corner on the second page, and I'm also marking for identification what seems to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed to Chief Curry, the original, apparently, has been signed by you, and I am marking it, "Dallas, Tex., March 26, 1964, Exhibit No. 5115, deposition of A. R. Brock." I am signing my name. It has only one page. Now, I understand that you have read both of these documents?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any comment to make? I would like you to express yourself as to whether those documents represent the truth and are they complete, or do they have omissions or should anything be deleted as wrong or just tell me your thoughts about the documents dealing first with the FBI report which has been marked "5114"?
Mr.Brock. These are true, to the best of my memory.
Mr.Hubert. Is that true of 5115, too?
Mr.Brock. That would be the other one? Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any comment to make on these? Do you think they represent what you know?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir; they—I think they represent all that I know about it.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say that between those two documents, to wit, 5114, 5115, and the material we got on the chart and your deposition, itself, that we now know just everything you know about the matter?
Mr.Brock. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, sir; do you care to add anything else in any way?
Mr.Brock. No, sir; I don't know of anything else thatwould——
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, have you been interviewed by me or any other member of the Commission staff prior to the starting of this deposition?
Mr.Brock. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, that's all. Thank you.