Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long had you known him, and in what way?
Mr.Clardy. I had known him approximately in the neighborhood of 8 or 9 years.
Mr.Hubert. In what way? How did you come in contact with him?
Mr.Clardy. To the best of my recollection I met him when I went into his place of business that he owned on South Ervay in connection with work, when I was working as a patrolman. I say I met him. I didn't meet him at that time. I knew him, knew who he was. I—first time I was ever introduced to him, shook hands with him, was at—after I went into criminal investigation. Possibly in the early part of 1956. I was looking for someone in connection with an auto theft in the vicinity of one of the places that he owned and he had an interest in the Vegas Club. I'm not sure who I was with, or whointroduced——
Mr.Hubert. Could you speak a little louder, please?
Mr.Clardy. I am not sure who I was with, or who introduced me to him at that time. Then approximately—maybe 6 or 8 months before this come up he stopped me downtown one day and started telling me about a traffic ticket he got. Other than that, I had seen him at a distance and had spoke to him. I had seen him quite frequently when I was working late nights where the B and B Club is, that is on Oak Lawn, close to Lemmon. There is one place of business between the Vegas Club and the B and B, and we would go in there quite frequently when we were working late nights, and I have seen him in there on several occasions.
Mr.Hubert. Was your acquaintance with him such that you would recognize him immediately upon seeing him?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Would you recognize him in that way, whether he had a hat on, or a hat off?
Mr.Clardy. I know the man well enough if I caught a glimpse of him I should recognize him; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, I am going to mark a chart of the basement area of the Dallas Police Department, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5064. Deposition of B. S. Clardy," under which I am signing my name. For the purposes of identification, however, before I move to that, I want to ask you concerning documents 5061, 5062, and 5063, previously identified, which I now hand you again.
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Ask you if there are any other corrections you wish tomake——
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. With reference to the documents?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Does the information contained in those documents represent the truth, so far as you know?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir; I do.
Mr.Hubert. Any modifications or changes or deletions that you would like to make?
Mr.Clardy. I don't believe there is, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Anything omitted, that you know of?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, the only thing that is not in there that I know anything about is possibly some of these people that come in and talk to him after we took him upstairs, which nobody that made any of these investigations asked me about.
Mr.Hubert. All right. I will get to that later, but with the exception of these omissions that you just mentioned, and to which I will come back at a later time, these documents represent the truth? There is no deletion and nothing more to add other than that other matter we have been talking about?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I'll ask you to put your name under my signature where it appears, and your initials under my initials where they appear on each of the documents. Right there.
Mr.Clardy. Right under here?
Mr.Hubert. Yes. Just—now, we'll be using this chart later on, which has been marked 5064, and I have signed it, and I will ask you, for the purposes of identification, to put your signature under mine on that one, too. Now, these documents have been corrected, I understand, that it was simply closer to 10 o'clock than to 11 that youreceived——
Mr.Clardy. Closer to 11 than 10.
Mr.Hubert. I beg your pardon. Closer to 11 than to 10 when you received certain instructions from Lieutenant Smart, is that correct?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were these instructions the first connection that you had with the movement of Oswald?
Mr.Clardy. We had been told earlier that morning, approximately—come on duty at 7 o'clock, and was—and was told to stay in the office. Now,that——
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your normal tour began at 7, but you were told to stay in the office?
Mr.Clardy. Was told to stay in the office, that we would have to move the prisoner.
Mr.Hubert. Who told you that?
Mr.Clardy. Lieutenant Smart.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you anything about how the prisoner was going to be moved, or at what time?
Mr.Clardy. I was under the impression that he didn't know what time or how, hisself, at the time.
Mr.Hubert. What caused you to form that impression?
Mr.Clardy. I think we went to get a cup of coffee, and I asked him, and he said, "I don't know."
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the impression that he didn't know what the plans were, actually came from the statement that he himself actually told you to the effect that he didn't know?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, then what happened after?
Mr.Clardy. Sometime shortly before 11, they told us to report to the basement.
Mr.Hubert. Smart did?
Mr.Clardy. Lieutenant Smart.
Mr.Hubert. Lieutenant Smart.
Mr.Clardy. Lieutenant Smart, myself, and Detective McMillon, Detective Archer and Detective Watson, and Detective Dawson out of our bureau.
Mr.Hubert. You moved as a group?
Mr.Clardy. Uh-huh, all down on the same elevator, and there was some other detectives from the juvenile bureau, I am sure, was on the same elevator. Detective Lowery, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and possibly some others. Those, I'm sure.
Mr.Hubert. What instructions were given to you?
Mr.Clardy. Went to the basement. LieutenantSmart——
Mr.Hubert. Speak a little louder.
Mr.Clardy. Lieutenant Smart is the one, the only one who had any orders as to what he wanted us to do. Said, "Line up along the wall here on each side." and help keep the people back out of the way.
Mr.Hubert. Did you do that?
Mr.Clardy. Well, I tried to, sir. Don't look like we done much good.
Mr.Hubert. I did not mean that to be facetious. I was simply following the line of thought. Then you followed his instructions to linethe——
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I want you to take a look at this mockup here and show us where you stood, if you did stay in one place, from the time that you got down in the basement area until the shot was fired.
Mr.Clardy. Let me get lined out here.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Clardy. I was on this corner to—just to the right of it, most of the time.
Mr.Hubert. Let's see. That would be here, isn't it? [Indicating.]
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you have marked—you have indicated on the mockup here a position which I am now marking by a circle.
Mr.Clardy. I was just down from the corner.
Mr.Hubert. This way?
Mr.Clardy. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now,I'll——
Mr.Clardy. In other words, I was close enough to the corner that I could see around both ways. One occasion, I went and talked to Detective McMillon.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you took this position, and went over there and came back, and this is where you were at the time of the shooting?
Mr.Clardy. At the actual shooting, I had moved approximately 3 steps to my right. As they backed this car out, apparently, some reporters tried to come across here [indicating]. And I had stepped up that way, not over—not that far up, sir. I only took 2 or 3 steps. I would say maybe probably as far as from me to you. I had stepped to my right.
Mr.Hubert. All right, now, I have marked on Exhibit 5064, as a result of what you have stated while looking at the mockup, 2 positions concerning you. One of which I have marked, encircled, "Position of B. S. Clardy prior to shooting," and second one, which is, you say, is approximately 3 feet further towards the Commerce Street entrance.
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Which was your position at the time of the shot?
Mr.Clardy. At notime——
Mr.Hubert. Is that correct?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir; might add something a little further, that at no time other than when I walked across to Detective McMillon do I recall being over 3 feet from that corner in any direction.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first get to that corner, approximately?
Mr.Clardy. That would have been approximately 11 o'clock, maybe 10:55. It would have been pretty close.
Mr.Hubert. So, that from the—from between 10:55 and 11 o'clock you stayed in the position which is marked on Exhibit 5064, that being the position of B. S. Clardy prior to the shooting. You stayed in that position all—within 3 feet of it the whole—during the whole time until Oswald was shot, except on one occasion when you said you went over to talk to Detective McMillon?
Mr.Clardy. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. How far did you move, and in what direction did you go?
Mr.Clardy. Certainly—well, sir; he was across the aisle on the other side.
Mr.Hubert. Now, would you mark on the map approximately the position of McMillon when you walked over to him?
Mr.Clardy. Approximately—I walked over to him approximately in here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. I am marking a circle, now, and I am putting on there, "Position of McMillon when Clardy walked over," right?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Then, did you go back to your original position?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I understand you to say that you stayed there except at the moment of the shooting you were about 3 feet in the direction of Commerce Street from that original basic position?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us why you moved 3 feet towards Commerce Street, as you say you did?
Mr.Clardy. The best of my recollection, as they backed the car out, that there was some of the press tried to come in front of the car, and I had to step to my right to watch them, and I stepped to my right and Captain Fritz had come into my view and stepped down to the right and turned slightly to my right, and approximately at that time, I hadn't seen Oswald myself, but approximately at the time I stepped to my right I saw a blur of fast movement and I tried to turn, and heard the shot.
Mr.Hubert. Did you recognize Ruby then?
Mr.Clardy. I had not seen him to recognize him; no, sir. Just all—I was turned, moved to the right, and all I could see was a fast blur of movement.
Mr.Hubert. At any time during this time that you were standing in your original position as marked on the map, or at any time when you went over to see McMillon, or at any time for that matter, whatsoever, did you see Jack Ruby in the crowd?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir; I did not; and approximately 2 or 3 minutes before the shooting I had looked over the crowd in the basement. Why, I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. You did, in fact, look over there?
Mr.Clardy. I had looked up to the right. Lieutenant Smart, and—I think—I am not for sure—Chief Batchelor was with him at the armored truck, and I did look on over the crowd on back around. Now, this could have been more than 3 minutes before the shooting occurred.
Mr.Hubert. Were the conditions such that if Ruby had been standing in that crowd you could have singled him out and seen him?
Mr.Clardy. As many people as there was in there at the time, sir, he could have very easily been behind somebody where I couldn't have seen him.
Mr.Hubert. Just how many people were in that area where Ruby apparently was? I don't mean an accurate count. Of course, you didn't count them.
Mr.Clardy. In the area where I presume that he come from, 12 to 15, on over behind the rail there was quite a few people, whether he come across the rail, whether he come down the ramp, like he told us, I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. But, the Main Street ramp itself going toward Main Street, you figured there were about 15 people?
Mr.Clardy. From along here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Don't say "along here," because that won't show up.
Mr.Clardy. So that we'll understand what I mean here, take this. There was people back over in here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Let's call that area "B" and you are talking about area B, and you say there was a considerable amount of people?
Mr.Clardy. Considerable amount of people back in there and from along here [indicating], across and along in here [indicating], therewas——
Mr.Hubert. Now, I am drawing a semicircle, is that approximately correct?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And I am calling that "line X to Y."
Mr.Clardy. I'd say there was a minimum of 15 people from here across here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Minimum of 15 people in the front row, or some in the back?
Mr.Clardy. There were some in the back.
Mr.Hubert. So, you think there were about 15 people strung along this line that we have marked "X to Y," being a curving line, in—and that there was some back of them, and up the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Clardy. At the time, I didn't see anybody back up in here anywhere.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, you didn't seeanybody——
Mr.Clardy. I didn't see anybody back as far as this [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, the second line which you have described, "as far as this," is—I'm going to mark that line and put it, for purposes of identification I'm marking it as a line designated by "1" and "2." Both numerals being encircled. I should like you to consider the area which is bounded by these two lines, "XY," and "1, 2," and the rail and at the wall is area A. Tell me how many people you think were in area A?
Mr.Clardy. In this area here?I——
Mr.Hubert. In area A, which has been designated by you as being encompassed between line "X" and "1," that being a curving line. Line "1,"—point "1" in a point to point "2" in a circle, the rail and thewall——
Mr.Clardy. I'd say there was approximately four or five people up and down here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. You are describing with thepencil——
Mr.Clardy. Where the circle is down across here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. You are describing with the pencil about four or five people along the rail lining of the basement side of the rail, is that correct?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir—no, sir; on the ramp side.
Mr.Hubert. Ramp side, parking area side?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir; on the ramp side. Not the parking area side. On the—this being the ramp here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Clardy. Coming off from Main.
Mr.Hubert. I see what you mean, on the ramp side?
Mr.Clardy. On the ramp side. There was a couple of uniformed officers in this area. I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. McMillon was one of them, wasn't he?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Oh, it was. You put his position, also, did you see W. J. Harrison in that group?
Mr.Clardy. W. J.? That is a detective in the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Hubert. Well, I don't know. I can't testify. I am not—well, that's all right.
Mr.Clardy. Sir, there was a detective, I am pretty sure the one you are talking about. I don't know him real well?
Mr.Hubert. That's all right.
Mr.Clardy. I don't know whether it was Harrison that was along in here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, would you make a circle and state where you think "Blackie" Harrison was at the time of the shooting?
Mr.Clardy. Time I saw Detective Harrison, to the best of my knowledge, he was along in there [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. I am marking that circle by putting "Position of 'Blackie' Harrison at time of shooting," is that correct or at the time you saw him?
Mr.Clardy. At the time I checked, looked over the basement, which would have been approximately 3 minutes, 2 or 3 minutes before the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. You saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting. Now, I'll ask you to check that again, that circle that I have designated by the legend, "position of 'Blackie' Harrison at the time Clardy saw him 2 or 3 minutes prior to the shooting." Is that approximately the position of Mr. Harrison at the time designated?
Mr.Clardy. Correct.
Mr.Hubert. That was the time you looked over the crowd?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. In that area, again, can you tell us about how many people were concentrated?
Mr.Clardy. Including a couple of uniformed officers in that area, there was possibly six or seven people in that area at that time.
Mr.Hubert. At the time you looked over at the crowd then you could see that if he stays behind this crowd of people looking up the Main Streetramp——
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody come down at all?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see any movement there?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir. I saw the—I say "movement"—I saw the car that Lieutenant Pierce drove out that ramp, and at the time that the car approached the top of the ramp there was nobody in that area.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see the car at the top of the ramp?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, the car now as it went out—let me get this straight here.
Mr.Hubert. Don't use the map now, if you can do it without it.
Mr.Clardy. Let me get it straight here. I watched the car drive out until he drove approximately half, or maybe three-fourths of the way up, and at that time, clear back down to here [indicating] there was nobody in between.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Clardy. Now, as to what—watching it drive on up to the top of the ramp, no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You did not see it drive to the top?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. But, roughly between half and three-fourths of the way up the ramp? Were you looking in that direction after the car had passed out of the ramp?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you think this, if anybody had come running down there you would have seen them?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, it is quite possible that somebody could have come running down there and I wouldn't have seen them.
Mr.Hubert. You did not, in any case, see anybody?
Mr.Clardy. I did not see anybody. Now, I was facing more over in—oh, almost straight across the ramp after I looked overthe——
Mr.Hubert. Over the crowd?
Mr.Clardy. Over the crowd.
Mr.Hubert. And you looked over the crowd prior to the time the car passed?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You did not look over the crowd then—after that?
Mr.Clardy. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think it is possible from your position that anybody could have come down that ramp and you would not have seen them?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What makes you think that, sir?
Mr.Clardy. Well, I wasn't just in particular watching toward the direction—at the time that Lieutenant Pierce come out, there was a lot of these people moving around, and I was trying to keep an eye on them. At the timethe other car was brought out—being brought out, there was a lot of those people over in this area in here moving around [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, I think you have already testified that as to the actual shooting itself, you just saw a movement?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Off to your left?
Mr.Clardy. Just a blur of movement.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first identify Ruby?
Mr.Clardy. After he had been taken inside the jail office.
Mr.Hubert. Did you speak to him then?
Mr.Clardy. As I went inside the main jail office they had the cuffs on him, and Detective McMillon said, "Well, let's take him on upstairs." And said, "Barney, take my gun."
I took Detective McMillon's gun out of his holster, and at the time I did, Jack Ruby said, "I'm Jack Ruby. Don't you know me? Don't you know me?" Said, "Yes, I know you, Jack," something to that effect. I am not sure, because I was sick to my stomach of what had happened, and then seeing him and wondering in my own mind how in the world a man had ever got in there. I took Detective McMillon's gun and mine and put it in one of the lockers in the jail office there, which is provided for that purpose. And along with Detective McMillon, Detective "Blackie" Harrison, and Detective Archer, and there was some other detectives on the elevator with us, and I'm not sure who, and we took Ruby directly to the fifth floor.
Mr.Hubert. Did he make any comments during that trip?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, I was on the—I was the last one that got to the elevator. If he was—made any comment on the way up I didn't hear him.
Mr.Hubert. Well, in your statement to the FBI agent which has been identified as No. 5063, you stated he did mention other things. That you had heard Ruby mention that he had intended to get off three shots, do you recall that?
Mr.Clardy. That was after we got upstairs.
Mr.Hubert. Well, tell us about that.
Mr.Clardy. I am not sure who asked him the question. I believe it was Detective Archer, and asked him in some way, "Did you intend to"—or, "Did you think you could kill the man with one shot?" And he said, "I intended to get off three shots." Said, "I didn't think that I could be stopped before I got off three shots." But, that,I——
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask Ruby, or did anyone ask Ruby in your presence how he had gotten into the basement?
Mr.Clardy. I asked Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. You did by yourself?
Mr.Clardy. I asked him myself, and I am sure there were several others who did.
Mr.Hubert. That was when you were up on the fifth floor?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir; shortly after hegot——
Mr.Hubert. Shortly after?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What did you ask him, and what did he reply? What did you ask him first?
Mr.Clardy. I asked him how he got into the basement and how long he had been there. I don't know whether that is the exact words I asked him in or not, and he said that Lieutenant Pierce, or he called him Rio Pierce—I believe said Rio Pierce, Lt. Rio Pierce drove out in the car and the officer stepped out from the ramp momentarily to talk to Lieutenant Pierce, or said something to him, and I come in behind him right on down the ramp, and says, "When I got approximately halfway down the ramp I heard somebody holler, 'Hey, you,' but I don't know whether he was hollering at me or not, but I just ducked my head and kept coming."
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything further?
Mr.Clardy. Further stated, said, "If I had planned this I couldn't have had my timing better." Said, "It was one chance in a million." Or something to that effect. Said, "If I had planned this, I couldn't have had my timing any better."
Mr.Hubert. Did he make any statement to you as to why he had done it?
Mr.Clardy. He said—no, somebody—I was going to ask him, and I am sure some other officer asked him as to why. He said, "Somebody had to do it. You all couldn't."
Mr.Hubert. Is that the only explanation he offered?
Mr.Clardy. Well, later on we talked to him a little further and he went into this long story about how much he thought of President Kennedy, and how he was remorseful. Didn't want Mrs. Kennedy to have to come to testify on a trial,and——
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything here to indicate that he had any accomplices in his act?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did he mention to you that he had been to the Western Union that morning?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything about where his car was?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything about there being a dog in it?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, I recall that he said there was some money in the car. I—I don't recall him saying it in my presence, about the dog being in it. I do recall that he talked later about some dogs that he had that he thought so much of.
Mr.Hubert. All right, now, a bit earlier when I asked you whether or not there were any omissions from the documents, Exhibits Nos. 5061, 5062, and 5063, you indicated there was an omission concerning what had been said to you by some people who had talked to you. I think that is what the omission—it was something along that line. Do you recall what that was now?
Mr.Clardy. Well, I think some of the stuff that we have gone into there that you have asked me as to some of the things that were said, or on down the line that I don't—I don't recall any of the FBI agents asking me who come up there and talked to him, whether they did or not, I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. Well, can you tell me what you had in mind a little while ago in the deposition when you said, "Yes, this is all right, but there has been omitted something," and I told you at that time, "Well, we'll come back to it a bit later," and now, I am coming back to it. I was wondering just what you had in mind when you stated that there had been an omission?
Mr.Clardy. I don't believe it is in that report that Secret Service agent, Mr. Sorrels, came up shortly after we arrived and talked to Mr. Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. I thinkthat——
Mr.Clardy. Whether that is in there ornot——
Mr.Hubert. Is that what you had in mind?
Mr.Clardy. That and the FBI agent, Mr. Hall, then came up and talked to Ruby off and on until the time that he was taken to Captain Fritz' office.
Mr.Hubert. How long a period was that?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, he was up there probably within 15 to 20 minutes after we had taken Mr. Ruby upstairs. Agent Hall was, and he talked to Mr. Ruby at considerable length until he had several telephone calls. I don't know who they were from or what they was about, but, that he was called to the telephone several times while he was up there.
Mr.Hubert. And Mr. Sorrels was present also?
Mr.Clardy. Mr. Sorrels had left before Mr. Hall come up there. Sorrels had talked briefly to Mr. Ruby. I say, "briefly," he—approximately 10 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. Let's see if I can get the time sequence. Within 15 minutes after Ruby was brought to the top—to the fifth floor, Mr. Hall came?
Mr.Clardy. Uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. And interviewed him, with some interruptions by telephone calls, for approximately what, now, an hour and a half?
Mr.Clardy. I'd say Mr. Hall was up there 3½ hours.
Mr.Hubert. Three and a half hours.
Mr.Clardy. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, in the 15 minutes or so before Mr. Hall came, Mr. Sorrels came?
Mr.Clardy. Mr. Sorrels came.
Mr.Hubert. And stayed about 10 minutes?
Mr.Clardy. Mr. Sorrels came up just very briefly. Very shortly after.
Mr.Hubert. Is that what you meant when you mentioned a little while ago that there was some omissions from your statement?
Mr.Clardy. That is what I had reference to; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have reference to any other omissions?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Then, let's put it this way. You have already stated that what is in these records, these three exhibits, 5061, 5062, and 5063, are true and correct; that you did not want to modify or change anything that you had previously said. That it was some omissions, and now, do I understand you to say that the omissions that you previously spoke of is what you just testified to?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Are there any other omissions that you know of?
Mr.Clardy. None that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. So, that by taking Exhibits 5061, 5062, and 5063, together with your deposition today, is it fair to state that there is on record everything you know about the assassination of Oswald?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, other than the interview that you had with me earlier today, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, the interview you had with me was prior to lunch, is that correct?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you state now whether there are any inconsistencies between your deposition and what we discussed at the interview to which I have just referred?
Mr.Clardy. Nothing other than the—you were referring to those previous statements?
Mr.Hubert. No; I am referring to any inconsistencies between what you testified today and the interview we had this morning?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, have you provided, or had—or did you provide in that interview this morning any material as to which you have not testified to in this deposition?
Mr.Clardy. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is there anything else at all that you would like to state that has not been said in one way or another by you?
Mr.Clardy. Sir, the only thing that I could add in any way, that I can think of, would be that the—Mr. Ruby appeared to be normal on that day.
Mr.Hubert. Then do you think you knew him well enough to be able to judge whether he was normal or not?
Mr.Clardy. From his expressions or the way he talked led me to believe that the man was normal, that he knew what he was doing.
Mr.Hubert. Well, other than that observation then?
Mr.Clardy. It wouldn't be anything that I could think of that I would add.
Mr.Hubert. All right; if you do think of anything, I want to ask you to please feel free to come forward and state it, because quite frankly, a person will forget something, and if you do remember anything, don't hesitate to come forward with it, even though you might say to yourself, "Well, I have already said there is nothing more, and now I am coming back to add something." I ask you not to feel that way, but on the other hand, to feel free to come forward, because the Commission wants to know all the facts, and we want to get the facts, even though you may not recollect them until after this deposition is over. I trust you will do that?
Mr.Clardy. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, then, thank you very much. I want to thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission for your assistance. Thank you, sir.
The testimony of Patrick Trevore Dean was taken at 8 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. Let me state for the record, first of all, introduce myself. As you probably heard I am Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission to Investigate the Assassination of President Kennedy. Now, this Commission was set up under an Executive order of President Johnson, dated November 29, 1963, called Executive Order No. 11130. Also pursuant to a joint resolution of Congress. We have adopted a number of rules and so forth which I will explain to you a little bit beforehand, pursuant to all these resolutions, I have been authorized by the General Counsel to take the deposition of Sgt. P. T. Dean, who is right here.
I want to tell you a little bit about the general nature of the inquiry that we are going into here. As the title of the Commission would indicate,
Voice.I hate to interrupt,but——
Mr.Griffin. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. As I say, I want to tell you a little bit about the scope of this inquiry that we are going to go into. We have been authorized to inquire into and evaluate and report to the President on all the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and all the facts surrounding the death of Lee Harvey Oswald.
Calling you, Sergeant Dean, we are particularly interested in the facts that surround the death of Oswald, although we don't mean to preclude any other information that you may have which may pertain to the whole area in which we are going. There has been a written request made to Chief Curry, by the general counsel of our Commission staff, asking that you appear here some time during this particular week. Now, this is not quite in full keeping with the rules that have been set forth by the Commission. Under the rules of the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to having your deposition taken. This is going to be sworn testimony. The rules also provide, however, that you may waive this notice. I want to ask you right now, Sergeant Dean, if you are willing to waive the written 3-day notice which you can require us to give you?
Mr.Dean. Yes. I will waive it.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Now, I also want to tell you that you are entitled, under the rules of the Commission to have an attorney present, if you want, and I notice you are not here today with an attorney, and I presume that is your desire, but do you?
Mr.Dean. I will waive that, also.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. Now, will you raise your right hand? Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth?
Mr.Dean. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Would you state for the record your full name?
Mr.Dean. Patrick Trevore Dean.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you live?
Mr.Dean. 2822 Nicholson, Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Dallas, Tex.?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Where are you employed?
Mr.Dean. Police Department.
Mr.Griffin. Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been with the Dallas Police Department?
Mr.Dean. 11 years.
Mr.Griffin. And do you hold any particular rank in the department?
Mr.Dean. I am a sergeant.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been a sergeant?
Mr.Dean. 6 years.
Mr.Griffin. What section were you assigned to in the police department?
Mr.Dean. Patrol division.
Mr.Griffin. That was on November 22, 23, and 24?
Mr.Dean. That's correct.
Mr.Griffin. Now, it's my understanding that you were not on duty on either November 22 or 23?
Mr.Dean. That's correct.
Mr.Griffin. Are these your regular off duty days?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What time did you come to work on Sunday, November 24?
Mr.Dean. At 7 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time that you came to work, had you heard anything about the proposed move of Lee Harvey Oswald?
Mr.Dean. No, sir; well, before I came to work, no, sir; I hadn't.
Mr.Griffin. Before you came to work did you know that Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr.Dean. Just rumored that some time during the day that he would be moved.
Mr.Griffin. How had you heard that?
Mr.Dean. Well, rumors in around city hall.
Mr.Griffin. Had you been around the city hall on the 23d?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Or the 22d?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Where then did you hear these rumors?
Mr.Dean. I had just come into town just about the time the President landed on Friday. I had been out to south Texas deer hunting, and that day, I, of course, listened to all the news about the assassination, and also the next day, on the 23d, and then on the 24th at 7 o'clock is when I reported for duty.
Mr.Griffin. Well, you indicated to me, though, that you had heard rumors around the police station?
Mr.Dean. This was on the 24th. They had said that sometime during the day that Oswald would be moved. Now, who they are would be in the captain's office, around in the captain's office and in my office.
Mr.Griffin. Referring to that period before you came on duty, had you heard any rumors then?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. So when you arrived you didn't have any idea that Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr.Dean. Repeat it?
Mr.Griffin. When you arrived at 7 o'clock Sundaymorning——
Mr.Dean. Right.
Mr.Griffin. You didn't have any idea Oswald was going to be moved that day?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you this: Did you drive down to work that day?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where you parked your car?
Mr.Dean. That being Sunday, I believe I parked in the 2100 block of Jackson Street.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recall how you entered the police department building?
Mr.Dean. On the Commerce Street side going to the basement. Not into the parking area where the incident occurred, but going into the police and courts building from Commerce Street.
Mr.Griffin. When you entered at 7 o'clock—I know it's difficult to pick out what you saw at one time and what you saw at another time. Did you see any TVcables——
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Strung through that entrance?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir; numerous television cables and cameras.
Mr.Griffin. Try to think back as best you can and tell us, as you walked in from Commerce Street, you know, you come down thesteps——
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. You have to open the door?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And that will take you into the hallway?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. That leads to the records room. Now, as you got into that area there where you open up the door and so forth, did you see any TV cables strung through that doorway?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir; I believe there was a lot of TV cable down at the end of the hall there, toward the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, talking now about right up atthe——
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did any TV cables come through that Commerce Street entrance?
Mr.Dean. I don't recall.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you do when you got inside?
Mr.Dean. I went immediately to the basement, changed clothes into my uniform and then went to the second floor, which is patrol captain's office, where I report for duty.
Mr.Griffin. Who did you report to there?
Mr.Dean. Captain Talbert.
Mr.Griffin. And did you have a conversation with Talbert at that time?
Mr.Dean. Nothing specific; no.
Mr.Griffin. Did Talbert give you an assignment at that time?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did Talbert talk to you in anyway about the movement of Oswald at that time?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you learn somewhere after you arrived at work that someone had made a telephone call in connection with the movement of Oswald, threatening Oswald's life?
Mr.Dean. Yes; did I learn of a telephone call?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Dean. I heard Captain Frazier, I believe it was, talking to Captain Talbert, and in my presence, and several others. I don't remember which ones, sergeants and a lieutenant or so, that I believe it was Sheriff Decker called during the night and asked that Oswald be moved during the night sometime.
Mr.Griffin. When did this conversation take place; how soon after you came to work?
Mr.Dean. It was some time—probably it would have been a little before 7 o'clock, because we meet downstairs at 7 o'clock sharp.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Dean. In the detail room.
Mr.Griffin. So this would have been almost within a few minutes of the time that you had walked in?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Well, were Talbert and Frazier—and who else was present during the conversation?
Mr.Dean. I believe Lieutenant Pierce was there, myself and Sergeant Putnam might have been there. Several other sergeants. See, this is the change time and all of his supervisors, Captain Frazier's and Captain Talbert's, the ones that are working that day, they will generally be in the office at that time.
Mr.Griffin. Off the record.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell me where we were?
(The record was here read by the reporter.)
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any other things that were said? Try to think about what these people said when this topic was brought up.
Mr.Dean. Captain Frazier said something to the effect that he had called Captain Fritz when Sheriff Decker called to request the movement of Oswald, andCaptain Fritz stated that he didn't think that Chief Curry wanted him moved during the night, that it was—he would be moved some time this day, that day, rather than in the night. It would be this day. That's where I got it that he was to be moved on the 24th.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I take it that this was sort of changing of the guard at this point, and Frazier was going off duty and he was sort of passing on the word to Talbert?
Mr.Dean. Right.
Mr.Griffin. What did Talbert say in response to that information?
Mr.Dean. I don't remember. The thing that I got, or impression that I got, was that they were just waiting for Chief Curry to say to move him, until they had proper authorization to move him, from our department rather than from the sheriff.
Mr.Griffin. Was Rio Pierce present at that time?
Mr.Dean. I think that he was.
Mr.Griffin. And it is my understanding of this situation that you had there at that time is Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce and the sergeants that were all under them, kind of a general briefing?
Mr.Dean. That's correct.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did Talbert then discuss this matter with you people who were on his shift?
Mr.Dean. Not at this time. We went back downstairs to the basement to the whole detail. This is to assign the patrolmen out on their tour of duty, to brief them of the new orders, if there had been any, and generally to get the men out in the field in the squad cars. This happens at 7 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you send all the men out that you normally would send out?
Mr.Dean. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. At that time?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir; with some few that we would use, the ones of which I can't recall. I imagine it would have been equivalent to three or four men that we would have kept in the city hall itself.
Mr.Griffin. At that time did you have any thought of how you would assemble the necessary men to handle the transfer?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, after you had this initial meeting with Talbert, what did you do?
Mr.Dean. Now, you are referring to after the detail?
Mr.Griffin. After you assigned these men, and what you called the general orders?
Mr.Dean. We went back to the second floor, back to Captain Talbert's office, which is the general offices for the patrol division.
Mr.Griffin. What happened up there?
Mr.Dean. Well, I don't remember anything specific until about—I, myself, went to the third floor to familiarize myself with the happenings, about the news cameramen and just to get an idea of what was going on and who was to be present, such as that, because I had been off. This was my first day back since—in a week, in fact. I had been on a few days vacation to go hunting.
Mr.Griffin. At the time you went up to the third floor, did you have any idea as to what your general responsibilities were going to be for the day?
Mr.Dean. No, sir; not at that time.
Mr.Griffin. I think I am misleading you. First of all, you have some general responsibility, standard responsibilities that you have every day?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What are those particular responsibilities?
Mr.Dean. Well, I am assigned to a zone area that has a group of 6 squads that work for me, equivalent to 15 men.
Mr.Griffin. What zone is that?
Mr.Dean. No. 110. It's in the eastern portion of Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Is that the Love Field area?
Mr.Dean. No, sir; this is the—Love Field area is north Dallas. I am in the eastern portion of Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. I see. And do you normally handle most of your duties from right within the police station?
Mr.Dean. No, sir: I have various paperwork to do in the office at times. Generally I am out in the car, answering calls with the squads, or when they need advice, supervision, well, I generally answer their calls.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, when you met with Talbert the second time upon the second floor, did you have any idea at that time that your duties would be any different on Sunday than they were on any other date?
Mr.Dean. I assumed that I would probably confine myself to the city hall.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to make that assumption?
Mr.Dean. Well, because of my seniority. It was just assumed that they would want me there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, so you went up to the third floor then?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And who did you talk to and who did you see up there on the third floor?
Mr.Dean. No one in particular. I just went up to see what was going on on the third floor. This is the first time I had been to the third floor. There were numerous cameras there, lot of cables. Just as you get off the elevator there was a lot of cameras.
Mr.Griffin. What time would you estimate that you were up on the third floor?
Mr.Dean. Probably 8 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. Did you go up to the third floor again during the morning; that is between that time and the time that Oswald was shot, did you have occasion to go back to the third floor?
Mr.Dean. I believe I did, but for no specific purpose.
Mr.Griffin. Well, if you can separate out the different times that you might have been up there, I want to know as best you recall whether there were news people up there on the third floor when you went up this first time, around—what did you say, 8 o'clock?
Mr.Dean. Yes. Were there news people up there?
Mr.Griffin. Did you see newspaper people up there at that time?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether the TV cameras were manned at that time?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall whether these people seemed to be operating the cameras, shooting footage or did they seem to be in any sort of operation?
Mr.Dean. They did have a monitor, small monitor set that they had the cameras on. However, they weren't broadcasting at the time. They might have been taping. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any other people that you thought were newsmen up there, other than those manning the cameras?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir. Pressmen. Newspaper people, none of which I can recall that I knew myself.
Mr.Griffin. What's your best estimate of the number of news people that were up there at about 8 o'clock?
Mr.Dean. Twenty-five, possibly.
Mr.Griffin. Did this create to you what appeared to be a crowded condition?
Mr.Dean. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how long did you remain up there on the third floor?
Mr.Dean. Oh, maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recall if you went into the homicide bureau?
Mr.Dean. Sometime during that morning I did step into the homicide bureau. However, I don't know who I talked to. And then there wasn't any specific reason that I did go in there. I just stepped in. The hall was very crowded. It might have been just that I was close to the homicide office and I stepped in there to get out of the crowd, because it was the least congested. There were no newsmen or pressmen in there, no cameras.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell, when you were up there at about 8 o'clock, what the general impression seemed to be as to when Oswald would be moved?
Mr.Dean. The impression I got, there was anticipation from the newsmen that—and the hopes of the newsmen, that he would probably be moved that day.
Mr.Griffin. But as to how early in the day, did you get any idea of what they were thinking of?
Mr.Dean. No, sir. This was at anytime. This was the impression I got, at anytime he could be moved. They were ready to start shooting, or go live television, I am sure, at anytime, at a moment's notice.
Mr.Griffin. Did they ask you any particular questions?
Mr.Dean. None specific; no, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did they attempt to approach you or shout things at you?
Mr.Dean. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember any other bureaus you went in on the third floor?
Mr.Dean. That was all.
Mr.Griffin. Now, where did you go from the third floor?
Mr.Dean. Went back down to the second floor.
Mr.Griffin. And who did you see down there?
Mr.Dean. Captain Talbert, Lieutenant Pierce.