The testimony of Rio S. Pierce was taken at 11:20 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Lt. Rio S. Pierce, with the Dallas Police Department. Lieutenant Pierce, my name is Leon D. Hubert, Jr. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and that joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Lieutenant Pierce. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to theassassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Lieutenant Pierce, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Lieutenant Pierce, you have appeared today by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, the General Counsel of the Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to have a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of the deposition, but the rules also provide that you may waive that 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so, and I askyou——
LieutenantPierce. I waive that.
Mr.Hubert. May I ask you to stand and raise your right hand so that you can be sworn? Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
LieutenantPierce. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you please state your name?
LieutenantPierce. Rio S. Pierce.
Mr.Hubert. Age?
LieutenantPierce. Forty.
Mr.Hubert. Your residence, please?
LieutenantPierce. 3227 South Edgefield.
Mr.Hubert. What is your occupation?
LieutenantPierce. Police officer, city of Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. And how long have you been so occupied?
LieutenantPierce. About 17 1/2 years.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you held the rank of lieutenant?
LieutenantPierce. Four years.
Mr.Hubert. What were your specific duties and responsibilities on November 24, 1963?
LieutenantPierce. Do you have reference to normal duties, or on this specific day?
Mr.Hubert. On this specific day.
LieutenantPierce. On this specific day I had instructions to secure the basement of the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. From whom did you receive those instructions?
LieutenantPierce. From Captain Talbert.
Mr.Hubert. Is he one of your superior officers?
LieutenantPierce. Yes; captain of the radio patrol, lieutenant commanderand——
Mr.Hubert. What time did he give you those orders, sir?
LieutenantPierce. I would say about 9 to 9:15.
Mr.Hubert. Did he direct you as to what you were to do in order to secure the basement area?
LieutenantPierce. No, sir; other than securing enough men from the other stations to secure the basement properly and make arrangements for whatever manpower was needed for the transfer.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Would you state for the record what you actually did in connection with carrying out those orders?
LieutenantPierce. Well, while we were responsible for the routine work of the department, we had to determine what manpower would be pulled on the various substations that we had, and those men were called in to the central station to be used as they were needed. Sergeant Dean was assigned the security of the basement, and he was assisted by Sergeant Putnam, and as I recall, there was a total of about 19 men that were called off their districts to help in this work.
Mr.Hubert. Did you, yourself, do any of the inspection work, or the searching out work?
LieutenantPierce. No, sir; Sergeant Dean made the assignment of the men, and approximately an hour later, I guess maybe 10:15, I did make an inspection of the basement, and apparently everything had been checked out, and it was considered secure.
Mr.Hubert. What did your inspection consist of at the time?
LieutenantPierce. Looking over the basement.
Mr.Hubert. Did you walk around?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir; I walked around the basement and checked various entrances to the city hall basement.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a reserve officer by the name of Brock?
LieutenantPierce. I can't recall right now. I know the name, I am sure that I know him by sight, but I don't connect the name with the person.
Mr.Hubert. Did you notice that there had been placed a uniformed officer, reserve or otherwise, near the service elevator in the basement?
LieutenantPierce. Are you talking about in the new building?
Mr.Hubert. Yes, sir; the elevator that goes up into the municipal building.
LieutenantPierce. As well as I remember, there was an officer. I believe his name was Brock. A police officer by the name of Brock. I'm not certain, but those elevators had been cut offfor——
Mr.Hubert. Well, the two regular elevators had, but what about the service elevator that had two doors, one leading into the basement and another one leading on the other side of the basement? Are you familiar with the elevator at all?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir; it has a back door to it leading out into the alley, and that is the elevator I believe, that was brought down and cut off and an officer stationed there to see that it didn't run.
Mr.Hubert. Were you aware of any planned route from the basement area to the county jail?
LieutenantPierce. My instructions were that I would escort the armored car, which would be a decoy, from Commerce Street ramp to Central northbound. To Elm Street onto Houston Street, which would be the entrance to the county jail.
Mr.Hubert. Who did you receive those orders from?
LieutenantPierce. From Chief Curry and Chief Stevenson.
Mr.Hubert. About what time did you get those orders?
LieutenantPierce. I would assume it was about 11:15.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do then?
LieutenantPierce. I immediately left. I received these instructions in the homicide office, which is on the third floor of the city hall. Immediately left there and rode the elevator down to the basement where I secured a car and I found that the normal exit, which is the exit on Commerce Street from the basement of the city hall, was blocked by an armored car. It was necessary for me to use the Main Street exit. I mean—actually, the Main Street entrance, because we don'texit——
Mr.Hubert. But you used it as an exit?
LieutenantPierce. I used it as an exit.
Mr.Hubert. Who was with you?
LieutenantPierce. Sergeant Putnam was in the front seat with me and Sergeant Maxey was in the back seat.
Mr.Hubert. Well, tell us what happened along the route then?
LieutenantPierce. Well, we pulled out of the basement, and I would judge from the time, from the length of time, probably a length it would take it to circle city hall.
Mr.Hubert. When you got to the top of the basement, were there any guards there on the Main Street entrance?
LieutenantPierce. Patrolman Vaughn was stationed at the top of the ramp.
Mr.Hubert. You knew him prior to that time?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What happened then?
LieutenantPierce. Well, actually, nothing happened outside of the fact that he had to move out of the way to let us out.
Mr.Hubert. Which way did he move?
LieutenantPierce. He moved toward the street.
Mr.Hubert. I mean on which side of you?
LieutenantPierce. He moved to my right.
Mr.Hubert. And towards the street?
LieutenantPierce. And towards the street; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What way was he facing then during the period that you were moving by him?
LieutenantPierce. He was facing me, as well as I remember.
Mr.Hubert. Thatis——
LieutenantPierce. Momentarily, anyway.
Mr.Hubert. In fact, he would have been looking from where he was standing toward the Main Street entrance?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him turn his head any at all?
LieutenantPierce. No, sir; I couldn't see him for just a matter of a second there when I pulled out. That ramp is steep and a little bit difficult to get out there.
Mr.Hubert. Did he step out in the street at all?
LieutenantPierce. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. Now, did you turn, immediately outside the Main Street entry or exit, to your right?
LieutenantPierce. I was aware that people were pressed, not a large number of them, but I would say maybe four or five.
Mr.Hubert. On your right?
LieutenantPierce. No, well, probably might have been a—I don't know. Just a guess. I don't recall the number of people now, what it would be.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether there were some people on your right?
LieutenantPierce. I was aware that people were on both sides of the car when I pulled across the sidewalk.
Mr.Hubert. And how far from the entrance?
LieutenantPierce. Well, probably 6 or 7 feet.
Mr.Hubert. Did you recognize anybody at all?
LieutenantPierce. Nobody except one by the name of Vaughn.
Mr.Hubert. Now, subsequently, of course, it turned out that Ruby shot Oswald. Did you know him prior to that time?
LieutenantPierce. No.
Mr.Hubert. Ruby?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir; I have known him 12 or 13 years, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. So, you would recognize him without any difficulty whether he had a hat on or not?
LieutenantPierce. I don't think I would have any trouble recognizing him if I saw him.
Mr.Hubert. You did not, see him in that crowd to your right?
LieutenantPierce. No; I didn't see him that day at all.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think that if he had been there he would have recognized you?
LieutenantPierce. I'm saying the possibilities are very great that had he been there I might not have seen him. I mean, due to the time element and more or less concerned with getting across the sidewalk and into the street, driving the automobile at the same time. I am saying the possibilities are very good that I might not have seen him had he been there. I'd be very hesitant to say that I wouldn't.
Mr.Hubert. I'm going to mark for identification three documents. First, I am marking, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5077. Deposition of Rio Pierce" and putting my name underneath that, and my initial on the second page and in the right-hand lower corner, that being a copy of a letter dated November 26, 1963, addressed to Chief Curry. The second document also consisting of two pages, a report of an interview with you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 6, in 1963. I am marking that, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5078, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on the front page of that, and I place my initials on the lower right-hand corner of the second page. And I am marking a third document on the right-hand margin, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5079, deposition of Rio Pierce." Signing my name on that front page and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the second and third pages. That last document, to wit: 5079, purports to be a report of an interview by FBI Agents Chapoton andSmith of you, Rio Pierce, on December 2, 1963. Now, I ask you if you have had an opportunity to look at these documents?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Are those documents correct and true?
LieutenantPierce. To the best of my knowledge, they are.
Mr.Hubert. Are there any omissions of a material nature?
LieutenantPierce. I don't recall any.
Mr.Hubert. Anything you would like to delete as not being the truth, or add because it has been omitted?
LieutenantPierce. No; I don't see anything in there that I would care to change.
Mr.Hubert. As far as you know, this represents the truth as you know it?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Maxey was in your car, was he not?
LieutenantPierce. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was he in the rear?
LieutenantPierce. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever talk to you about having seen Daniels at the exit? N. J. Daniels?
LieutenantPierce. You mean since then?
Mr.Hubert. Well, since the day you drove out of there. In other words, have you and Maxey ever, at all, conversed about whether he, Maxey, saw Daniels?
LieutenantPierce. It is possible. I don't recall. People talk about a lot of things since then.
Mr.Hubert. Now, there has been no interview between you and any member of the Commission's staff before this deposition today, has there?
LieutenantPierce. No.
Mr.Hubert. Anything else you want to say or add or change?
LieutenantPierce. I don't know of a thing.
Mr.Hubert. Thank you very much, sir.
The testimony of Sgt. James A. Putnam was taken at 10:05 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. All right. This is the deposition of Sgt. James A. Putnam, Dallas Police Department. Sergeant Putnam, my name is Leon Hubert, Jr., I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel on the President's Commission. Under the provisions of the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, by President of the United States, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137 and the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Putnam. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate, and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Sergeant Putnam, the nature of this inquiry tonight is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you know, now, about the general inquiry.
Sergeant Putnam, you have appeared by virtue of a general request made to Chief Curry by the general counsel of the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin. Under the rules adopted by the Commission you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Now, I'll ask you if you are willing to waive that 3-day written notice?
SergeantPutnam. What is the purpose?
Mr.Hubert. Simply this, that any witness—the Commission says that any witness should have a privilege of having 3 days' written notice before he may be called upon to testify, and that in writing. Now, you have not had that, because of the way the request came. You see, the request came by letter to Mr. Curry from Mr. Rankin, who is the general counsel of the President's Commission,and——
SergeantPutnam. May I ask why it was done by this method rather than the normal official notice?
Mr.Hubert. Simply because of the number of people that were involved. If you wish to have the normal 3-daynotice——
SergeantPutnam. Well, will any further—will there be necessary for me to appear at any further date? Also, are we going to conclude it tonight? I will waive it for tonight and request if there is a further need for me to arrive at this time, that I receive it if—it has got my only day off in 2 weeks. I will waive it at this time and request it if you do need me again, but I do get the 3-day official notice.
Mr.Hubert. We certainly will do so. First, let me say this in regard to the time and so forth and being your day off. The actual sequence of witnesses and the times they appear was not arranged by us. I don't want to place the blame on anyone but I am awfully sorry.
SergeantPutnam. That's all right.
Mr.Hubert. Let me say that if we want to call you in again, you will surely get the notice, but I don't believe you will be. However, I can't be absolutely certain. I will get in touch with you by phone and be sure that we don't disturb any of your rest days, because I know how important that is. Would you stand up and raise your right hand and take the oath. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
SergeantPutnam. I do.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Please state your full name, please.
SergeantPutnam. James A. Putnam.
Mr.Hubert. And your age?
SergeantPutnam. Thirty-seven.
Mr.Hubert. And your residence?
SergeantPutnam. 2015 Joan Drive.
Mr.Hubert. Dallas?
SergeantPutnam. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. What is your present occupation and how long have you held it?
SergeantPutnam. Police officer. Ten years and four months.
Mr.Hubert. And the rank you have now?
SergeantPutnam. Sergeant.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been sergeant? You have held that for how long?
SergeantPutnam. Eight months.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have the same rank and responsibilities during the period of November 22 and 24?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Who do you serve under, sir?
SergeantPutnam. Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr.Hubert. And Lieutenant Pierce is with the patrol division?
SergeantPutnam. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. He is under Captain Talbert?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, then, Captain Talbert is your superior officer,too——
SergeantPutnam. Also.
Mr.Hubert. In the line of command. Now, I have in my hand, two documents which I am going to mark—three documents which I am going to mark. Marking the first one as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5071. Deposition of J. A. Putnam," and I am signing my name on that. The document is supposed to be a copy of a letter dated November 26, addressed by James A. Putnam to Chief of Police J. E. Curry, and it has twopages. I am placing my initials on the second page. I am marking another document as follows, "Dallas, Texas, March 24th, 1964, Exhibit 5072. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on that page, the exhibit being a single page exhibit. Then I am marking a four-page exhibit being a report of an interview of you made on December the 3, by Special Agents Carris and Peden of the FBI. I am marking the first page in the bottom right hand, "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964, Exhibit 5073. Deposition of J. A. Putnam." I am signing my name on the first page below that, and putting my initials in the lower right-hand corner of the three subsequent pages on that exhibit. Have you had a chance to read these three documents that I have marked?
SergeantPutnam. I thought there were two. I would like to see the second one you marked. It may be another interview by the FBI. Now, is that correct?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
SergeantPutnam. I wasn't aware that this was separate. I know I read the first one. Yes; I had missed that page. Thatwas——
Mr.Hubert. What I want to ask you about all three of them, as a group, if we can handle them that way, and if wecan't——
SergeantPutnam. I believe we can.
Mr.Hubert. If they represent the truth, if there are any errors in any of those exhibits, if there are any omissions, do you wish to add anything, delete anything or modify anything?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir; I accept them as they are.
Mr.Hubert. All right, would you do this, then. Would you put your name below my name where it appears and your initials below my initials that appear. Now, sergeant, I have only a very few questions, I think, to ask you about this, because as I read your statements they are rather complete, taking the three together. They just give about everything you know about the whole thing.
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. As I understand from this, you were in the basement area, from about 9:30 until shortly before 11:20?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You assisted, I think, in the searches made of the basement area?
SergeantPutnam. That's correct.
Mr.Hubert. You made some of these searches yourself?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby?
SergeantPutnam. No, I—now,I——
Mr.Hubert. Well, you know him now, of course. Did you on November 24, prior to the time that Oswald was shot, did you know of the existence of a person named Jack Ruby?
SergeantPutnam. I had heard the name. But so far as ever meeting him personally, I don't think that I ever had. If I did, I don't remember it from seeing his pictures.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I wanted to ask you, on the 24th, if you had met him and had formed a sufficient impression upon your mind so that you would have recognized him at all?
Mr.Putnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Of course, you did see his picture and perhaps you saw him after his arrest?
SergeantPutnam. I saw his picture. I have not seen him personally.
Mr.Hubert. You didn't see him in the basement area?
Mr.Putnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know of anyone who did?
SergeantPutnam. That saw him in the basement?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
SergeantPutnam. Prior to the shooting?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Putnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you been in any discussion with anybody as to who might have seen him and who might not have?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir. I—there have been discussions to the effect that if he were there, surely someone would have seen him and recognized him. I mean, just in informal discussions, how could he be there.
Mr.Hubert. And yet, of course, he was there?
SergeantPutnam. I understand that.
Mr.Hubert. But, you know of no evidence that would indicate that anyone did actually see him?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You have never heard anyone say that he had seen him?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you heard anyone say that they knew that someone had seen him there?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the discussions have been simply that since he was there it is just amazing that he was not seen my anybody?
SergeantPutnam. Except when I evaluate it. Having worked with those reporters and around them I can understand how that could have happened, because with as many a number of reporters that we dealt with for those 2 days, it's a tough job knowing everyone personally.
Mr.Hubert. I think you were directed to get into a car with a couple of people and drive around to the Commerce Street side?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Who gave you that direction?
SergeantPutnam. Sergeant Dean.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you drove out you were driving the car, weren't you?
SergeantPutnam. That's—no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Weren't you? Didn't you drive the car?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Who drove it?
SergeantPutnam. Lieutenant Pierce.
Mr.Hubert. Oh, I'm sorry. Did you see Lieutenant Pierce leave with the car?
SergeantPutnam. I was in the car.
Mr.Hubert. Where were you seated in the car?
SergeantPutnam. In the front seat.
Mr.Hubert. I'm sorry. The front right seat?
SergeantPutnam. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who was in the back seat?
SergeantPutnam. Sergeant Maxey.
Mr.Hubert. When did you first get seated in the car?
SergeantPutnam. Are you referring to time?
Mr.Hubert. Let's get it this way, I understand that you had to get out of the car to move some of the people out of the way so that the car could go up the ramp.
SergeantPutnam. That's correct.
Mr.Hubert. So, you were seated in the car in the basement or parking area at first when you started off?
SergeantPutnam. Actually on the ramp that comes from the parking area to the ramp that goes between the two streets.
Mr.Hubert. Got in the car there?
SergeantPutnam. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have to get out?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. When did you have to get out?
SergeantPutnam. After he traveled about 10 to 15 feet.
Mr.Hubert. Why did you have to get out?
SergeantPutnam. Because the reporters had formed on the north.
Mr.Hubert. Main Street?
SergeantPutnam. On the north.
Mr.Hubert. Why don't you just use the street directions. Main Street ramp?
SergeantPutnam. Main Street ramp, but by the "ramp" I don't mean the incline, where it flattens out.
Mr.Hubert. I understand. On that flat part.
SergeantPutnam. That's right. So, I had to get out of the car and move them back to prevent hitting some of them.
Mr.Hubert. How many people were in that area do you think?
SergeantPutnam. I would estimate 15 to 25.
Mr.Hubert. And they were standing shoulder to shoulder?
SergeantPutnam. I didn't get—this impression. They were standing in wait of the expected departure of Oswald, and they were just mingled, and you know how reporters act and operate in trying to position themselves.
Mr.Hubert. It wasn't enough that you were able to blow the horn, you had to get out?
SergeantPutnam. We didn't even attempt to blow the horn to cause confusion. First of all, this is the entrance and not the exit. They are not expecting a vehicle coming out of there, they are not paying attention to us. They are looking in the direction they expect Oswald to come out from, so, I got outand——
Mr.Hubert. When the path cleared up, you got back in again?
SergeantPutnam. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Was the window on the right down?
SergeantPutnam. The window was down.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you got to the top of the ramp, what happened? That is when you got to the Main Street, the sidewalk area, and, of course, the street area, would you describe in your own words just what happened? What did you see?
SergeantPutnam. I saw officer Vaughn and about six persons.
Mr.Hubert. Where was Vaughn now when you first saw him?
SergeantPutnam. In front of our automobile about the middle of the sidewalk.
Mr.Hubert. What did he do?
SergeantPutnam. He stepped to the right and about to the curb, or just off of the curb, glanced to his right and looked back and waved us on.
Mr.Hubert. You went into Main Street and turned left?
SergeantPutnam. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Did he go very much out into the street to assist you to get out?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You say he stepped off of the curb, though?
SergeantPutnam. Possibly one step off of the curb.
Mr.Hubert. And then he looked to his right and his left? How did he do that?
SergeantPutnam.I——
Mr.Hubert. How was he standing? With his back to you?
SergeantPutnam. My impression was he was facing us and my impression was that he glanced to his right, which would be to the westbound traffic and Lieutenant Pierce, the driver, was on the left and in a position to see the eastbound traffic.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, turned his head so that the back of his head would have been towards the Main Street ramp?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And he stepped off of the curb just about 2 feet?
SergeantPutnam. Well, I would say in one step, 2 feet.
Mr.Hubert. Didn't go into the middle of the street?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And he waved you on?
SergeantPutnam. He immediately turned back and glanced like this [indicating], and turned back, and was walking back to his position on the sidewalk.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say from the time you all reached the Main Street exit point to the time that Vaughn started to walk back to his position, it took only a matter of 3 or 4 seconds?
SergeantPutnam. We didn't even stop the car. It would be very few seconds.
Mr.Hubert. No stop at all?
SergeantPutnam. Just a—to prevent from hitting a pedestrian walking on the sidewalk. Now, there wasn't one walking, but to take a quick glance like you would do approaching a sidewalk, the car was slowed, and immediately—at this time everything happened at once. He slowed the car, Vaughn walked and glanced and waved us on. He accelerated and we went on to Main Street.
Mr.Hubert. Did you turn your head to the right when you got to the sidewalk?
SergeantPutnam. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was not a soul?
SergeantPutnam. Didn't see anyone in sight in—except Officer Vaughn and the persons that I say were on the left.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there was nobody coming up Main Street towards Harwood?
SergeantPutnam. I can't say that there was not. I can say that I didn't see them.
Mr.Hubert. That is all you can do, of course.
SergeantPutnam. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And there was no one standing there that you saw?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Specifically, now, the man that you later knew to be Jack Ruby, you did not see either walking up, or standing by on the Pearl Street side of Main Street exit?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you look at the people on the left side?
SergeantPutnam. I only glanced. Ijust——
Mr.Hubert. Can you identify anybody?
SergeantPutnam. Not a person.
Mr.Hubert. Can you specifically say that Ruby was not there?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All you can say is, I take it then, the man you have since learned to be Ruby was—you didn't see him?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. If he was there, you didn't see him?
SergeantPutnam. I didn't see him.
Mr.Hubert. Can you go as far as to say, turning again to your right-hand side, that there was nobody on your right-hand side at all?
SergeantPutnam. I can say that there was no one in the immediate vicinity within, I would say—well, it was apparent that—15 feet away from me I saw a group of people standing, and to theright——
Mr.Hubert. Onthe——
SergeantPutnam. To the left, and to the right I saw no one in the immediate vicinity of us.
Mr.Hubert. That is immediately upon coming out?
SergeantPutnam. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see the person who has subsequently been identified as Jack Ruby among the reporters that he pushed through?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see any such person come down the ramp as you were going up the ramp?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How far down Main Street to Pearl do you think you can see?
SergeantPutnam. Well, it is a clear view to Pearl Street, but my attention would not have been directed by someone half a block away. It would have made no impression.
Mr.Hubert. But, your thought is that there was nobody at least as far as a half a block away?
SergeantPutnam. That's my belief.
Mr.Hubert. And Vaughn turned immediately back and went back to his position?
SergeantPutnam. Was walking back in that direction. In other words, we could have been close enough to touch him.
Mr.Hubert. As you passed, he was walking back.
SergeantPutnam. That's correct.
Mr.Hubert. And therefore, he was facing towards the entrance?
SergeantPutnam. That's correct.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear him call to anybody up there?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, is there anything else you would like to say?
SergeantPutnam.Well——
Mr.Hubert. Any other facts that aren't covered in the documents which we have identified here as 5071, 5072 and 5073?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I do not believe you have been interviewed by any member of the Commission's staff at all prior to this deposition?
SergeantPutnam. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, I think that is all. If any fact that has not been developed in these reports and in your testimony should come to your attention, I hope you will free to let us know about it if you think it is a material fact. All we are seeking is to get the facts. That's all. And if, by chance, you have forgotten something and you should remember it at a later date, please contact us through the United States attorney's office and tell them that you have a fact that you would like to report that you have overlooked and we will make arrangements to see you again.
But at this time, we will give you the 3 days' notice.
I thank you, sir.
The testimony of Willie B. Slack was taken at 11 a.m., on March 31, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Patrolman Willie—is that Willie? Not William?
Mr.Slack. Willie.
Mr.Hubert. Willie B. Slack. Mr. Slack, my name is Leon Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the rules provided by the Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, and the joint resolution of Congress, No. 137, together with the rules of procedure adopted by the President's Commission in conformance with the Executive order and joint resolution, I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Slack.
I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Mr. Slack, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine the facts that you know about the death of Oswald, and any other pertinent facts you may know about the general inquiry. Now, Mr. Slack, you have appeared here today by virtue of the general request made to Chief Curry by J. Lee Rankin, who is general counsel of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by this Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice that your deposition is going to be taken, but the rules also provide that you may waive the 3-day written notice if you see fit to do so. And are you now willing to waive that 3-day notice?
Mr.Slack. I do.
Mr.Hubert. That being the case, will you stand and be sworn?
Do you solemnly swear then to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Slack. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you state your name, please?
Mr.Slack. W. B. Slack.
Mr.Hubert. Your age?
Mr.Slack. Thirty-nine.
Mr.Hubert. Your residence?
Mr.Slack. 5605 Sumatra, Dallas.
Mr.Hubert. And your occupation?
Mr.Slack. Patrolman.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been a patrolman on the Dallas Police Force?
Mr.Slack. Ten years.
Mr.Hubert. What is your particular assignment?
Mr.Slack. Working in the jail office.
Mr.Hubert. What duties do you have there, in general?
Mr.Slack. We answer the telephone, and when the officers bring the worksheets down, we book them on a booking form.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, book the prisoners in and out?
Mr.Slack. Check them out when somebody comes in and pays them out.
Mr.Hubert. When you say, "Pays them out," you mean, makes bond?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir; or writs.
Mr.Hubert. Or writs? Oh, you mean if they are released on a writ?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, your office then is the control center, as it were, for people coming in and people coming out?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You work in shifts, of course, like all the rest of the police?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Were you on duty on November 24, 1963, the day that Oswald was shot?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What time did you come on duty?
Mr.Slack. 6:30 a.m., in the morning.
Mr.Hubert. You had what is called the first platoon, I think. Eleven o'clock, oh, no—I beg your pardon. That would be the second platoon.
Mr.Slack. Second platoon.
Mr.Hubert. Comes on at 6:30 and goes off at 2:30?
Mr.Slack. 2:30.
Mr.Hubert. Therefore, you were there between 11 and the time Oswald was shot?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Jack Ruby?
Mr.Slack. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever seen him before that day?
Mr.Slack. Not to my knowledge; no.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall the occasion when Oswald was brought down to be transferred to the county jail?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, tell us what you know about it in your own words.
Mr.Slack. Well, he got off the elevatorand——
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever seen him before that time?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; and he was flanked on either side by detectives and Captain Fritz was with the detectives, and they went out the swinging doors, which is into the basement of the city hall.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what time that was?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What time was it?
Mr.Slack. 11:20.
Mr.Hubert. How do you fix that?
Mr.Slack. When a prisoner is released from jail we have to put the time on a booking card, we have to put them down.
Mr.Hubert. Did you do so?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Does that booking card exist?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you examined it briefly?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long ago?
Mr.Slack. I examined it before I came to work, before I came over here.
Mr.Hubert. When? This morning, or yesterday,or——
Mr.Slack. That was yesterday.
Mr.Hubert. What does it show?
Mr.Slack. Itshows——
Mr.Hubert. About the time?
Mr.Slack. Transferred to the county at 11:20 a.m., on the 24th of November.
Mr.Hubert. Whose handwriting is that entry in?
Mr.Slack. It is in mine.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how did you fix the time? How do you normally fix the time?
Mr.Slack. Well, we put the date and the time.
Mr.Hubert. What I mean is, do you have an electric clock?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; do it with a pencil, or fountain pen.
Mr.Hubert. You mean you rely upon your watch?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; we have a clock on the wall.
Mr.Hubert. Is that an electric clock?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is it accurate?
Mr.Slack. That, I can't answer,because——
Mr.Hubert. Well, I mean, you all go by it?
Mr.Slack. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Time is of importance in going in and going out of prisoners, isn't it?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir; it sure is important.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if the clock is checked at any time to see if it is?
Mr.Slack. Not to my knowledge; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever observed it to be wrong?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; I sure haven't.
Mr.Hubert. Well, it certainly needs checking procedure to see if it loses time, or gains, or stops because of the electricity being cut off, or something of that sort.
Mr.Slack. Yes. Well, if the time was different from one of our watches I imagine they would call "Time," sir. Of course, we call "Time," all the time usually checking the news, you know, so it is checked that way.
Mr.Hubert. In your opinion, that clock is accurate; right?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. If it were in error, what would you say would be the greatest error it could be in?
Mr.Slack. Well, it couldn't be over a minute or two either way, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, what happened after that?
Mr.Slack. Well, he went out the door, and then my job there was to, when the lieutenant told me that they had got in the car or transportation which was to be used, they then would notify me, and I was supposed to notify the dispatcher that theywere——
Mr.Hubert. What were you supposed to notify the dispatcher?
Mr.Slack. That they were on their way.
Mr.Hubert. Had you received any orders about that?
Mr.Slack.Well——
Mr.Hubert. I mean, who told you that, to notify the dispatcher?
Mr.Slack. Lieutenant Wiggins.
Mr.Hubert. Now, notifying the dispatcher, would mean that it would go over the radio?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; they have a direct line to the county.
Mr.Hubert. So, the purpose of notifying the dispatcher, so far as you know, was for them to telephone the county that the prisoner was on his way?
Mr.Slack. Apparently; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been told that by Wiggins or had you been told that—merely to notify the dispatcher?
Mr.Slack.The——
Mr.Hubert. We have to take it on the record.Just——
Mr.Slack. Well, my letter there I wrote that—do you have a copy of it?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Slack. That I—well, I can say that I was told to tell the dispatcher that he was en route to the county.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who the dispatcher was?
Mr.Slack. Jim Farr is the dispatcher.
Mr.Hubert. No; I mean on that particular day?
Mr.Slack. Well, he is, like I say, the dispatcher up there, but when I called on this particular occasion, I got Miss Cason first, and thenI——
Mr.Hubert. Of course, that was to report to Miss Cason that the man had been shot?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir;but——
Mr.Hubert. What did you say to Miss Cason?
Mr.Slack. Told her that Oswald had been shot, and that we needed a doctor.
Mr.Hubert. Did you call for an ambulance, tell her you needed an ambulance?
Mr.Slack. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Your remark to Miss Cason was simply that Oswald had been shot and to get a doctor?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir; best of my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when did you write out the entry which you say was in your own hand showing that the prisoner was being transferred at 11:20? Was that done at 11:20 or later?
Mr.Slack. I would—I believe I wrote it out then. In other words, what I am in the habit of doing is this. That is something that comes naturally.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the normal procedure is that the time of release and the time of actiontaken——
Mr.Slack. I was standingthere——
Mr.Hubert. Let me finish my question; is done simultaneously with the act itself?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So, that normally, when a prisoner leaves you make these notations, and you look to see what time it is. You enter the time, and that is how the notation is made?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. As far as you know, was there any deviation from that normal procedure in the case of the transfer of Oswald?
Mr.Slack. The deviation, it was in this point, that we usually have it filled out before the prisoner is brought down. In this particular case, we didn't know when he was going to be transferred, so therefore, we had to write down when he did come down.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you hadn't pulled his card?
Mr.Slack. I had his card pulled. I knew he was going to be transferred, presumably.
Mr.Hubert. But you didn't know the time; so, therefore, you hadn't entered anything?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; I had it on the clipboard on the counter where we always keep them.
Mr.Hubert. What is your best recollection about what you entered there with reference to the shooting, that is to say, was the entry made before or after the shooting?
Mr.Slack. It was made before the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, it was made in the interval when he came out of the elevator and they walked out?
Mr.Slack. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Slack. [Witness nods head.]
Mr.Hubert. She can't—you have to say something, because the reporter can't record silence.
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir; I forget.
Mr.Hubert. You didn't see the shooting, as I understand it?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; I saw the shuffle out there.
Mr.Hubert. And then they brought Ruby and Oswald in?
Mr.Slack. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did either Ruby or Oswald say anything that you, yourself heard?
Mr.Slack. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you notice the time that they brought them in? Who came in first?
Mr.Slack. I don't know, sir. Like I say, the lieutenant told me to call the doctor, and, of course, my back end was turned a few seconds.
Mr.Hubert. When you say, "lieutenant," I believe you are referring to Lieutenant Wiggins?
Mr.Slack. Wiggins; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So, you called the dispatcher and told him what you said you told him, and what happened next, to your recollection?
Mr.Slack. Well, it was just about over with then except the ambulance did come in, and, of course, that was a little confusion around there.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know anything about the times of, say the movement of Ruby up in the elevator to the jail, or the time when the ambulance arrived and the time when it left with Oswald?
Mr.Slack. No, sir; not the exact time; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. No record was made on any of that?
Mr.Slack. Not that I know of. Not in our office.
Mr.Hubert. What is the form called that you filled in with your own hand about the time of movement? Does that have a number?
Mr.Slack. We call it a booking card.
Mr.Hubert. Booking card?