The testimony of Roy Lee Lowery was taken at 11 a.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Detective R. L. Lowery, Dallas Police Department. Mr. Lowery, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of the Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, a joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order in the joint resolution, I have been authorized to take the sworn deposition from you, Mr. Lowery. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular, Mr. Lowery, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts you may know about the death and the general inquiry.
Now, Mr. Lowery, you have appeared here today by virtue of a request made to Chief Curry by Mr. J. Lee Rankin, who is the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice by the Commission prior to the taking of this deposition, but the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive that 3-day notice if he wishes to do so. Do you wish to waive the 3-day notice?
Mr.Lowery. I will waive it.
Mr.Hubert. Will you raise your right hand. Do you solemnly swear to tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Lowery. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you please state your name?
Mr.Lowery. Roy Lee Lowery.
Mr.Hubert. And your age?
Mr.Lowery. Thirty-two years of age.
Mr.Hubert. Your residence?
Mr.Lowery. 838 West Church in Grand Prairie.
Mr.Hubert. Texas?
Mr.Lowery. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Is that just outside of the Dallas area?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir; it is in Dallas County. It is on the west side.
Mr.Hubert. What is your occupation, sir?
Mr.Lowery. I am a detective with the Dallas Police Department.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been so occupied?
Mr.Lowery. Oh, approximately 9½ years.
Mr.Hubert. What specific position do you hold in the detective department?
Mr.Lowery. I'm a detective in the juvenile bureau of the police department, criminal division.
Mr.Hubert. Who is your immediate superior?
Mr.Lowery. Capt. Frank Martin.
Mr.Hubert. Who is next up the line?
Mr.Lowery. I believe it is M. W. Stevenson.
Mr.Hubert. And then Chief Batchelor and Chief Curry?
Mr.Lowery. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I think you haveread——
Mr.Lowery. Now, if you will start with Mr.Bookhout's——
Mr.Hubert. Let me get this report in.
Mr.Lowery. All right.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have read three documents which I have previously handed you to read, and I want to mark the three of them now for identification, and then we will talk about each one.
Mr.Lowery. All right.
Mr.Hubert. I am marking a letter, or a copy of a letter consisting of one page, addressed to Chief Curry, dated November 24, 1963, indicating that the original may be signed by you, and I am identifying it as follows, by marking upon it, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5081. Deposition of R. L. Lowery, and signing my name below it." As to the second document, consisting of two pages, and purporting to be a report of an interview by—of you by FBI Agent Bookhout, on November 24, 1963, and I am marking that document along the right margin as follows: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit 5082. Deposition of R. L. Lowery." I am signing my name below that on the first page of that document, and placing my initials in the right-hand lower corner on the second page of that document. Finally a document purporting to be a report of an interview of you by FBI Agents Smith and Chapoton, on December 23, 1963, consisting of five pages, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit No. 5083, deposition of R. L. Lowery," and I am signing my name on the first page, and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second page, third page, fourth page and the fifth page.
Now, sir, I hand you the exhibit which has been marked 5081, being the letter to Chief Curry, and ask you if that letter is correct insofar as it goes? Or do you have any other comments to make about it?
Mr.Lowery. This is correct.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I hand you an exhibit identified as 5082, consisting of two pages, and ask you if you have read it, and whether you have any comments to make about it?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir; I read it. Now, as to this one there is some changes to be made.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, I suggest you do this. If you want to make a change in a sentence, read that sentence indicating that you are beginning to read by using the word "quote", and when you get to the end of the sentence,"unquote". Then make your comment about the sentence, or if you have the whole paragraph you may do it that way.
Mr.Lowery. Well, first one, quoteLowery——
Mr.Hubert. That is on the first page, is it not? What paragraph?
Mr.Lowery. First page, first paragraph interview by Mr. Bookhout of the FBI.
Mr.Hubert. You are going to start reading, so say "quote".
Mr.Lowery. Quote, "Lowery stated he and several others grabbed Ruby," unquote. Now, I didn't—I didn't grab Ruby. Several other officers did. I didn't touch Ruby at all at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell thisman——
Mr.Lowery. No, sir; I didn't.
Mr.Hubert. That is incorrect?
Mr.Lowery. I do not recall—no, I touched Ruby later, but not at this particular time. This is the time where Ruby was disarmed and taken into the jail office. I didn't touch him at all at that particular time. There were several other officers around him. I couldn't even get to him.
Mr.Hubert. When did you touch him?
Mr.Lowery. He was carried into the jail office by several officers, and after coming into the jail office by myself, I held one of Jack Ruby's legs while he was given a quick shakedown before he was taken upstairs.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Have you any other comments to make about that Exhibit 5082?
Mr.Lowery. I don't believe that there is any others on this one. Yes. On Page 2, of this same exhibit—let's see, where could I start. Now, would you like me to start in the middle of a sentence, or just read the whole sentence even though it is several lines?
Mr.Hubert. Perhaps you'd better read the whole sentence, I think it will be clearer.
Mr.Lowery. All right, quote "He stated this camera was never put into operation, the cable was never connected and the blank cap was never taken off. Lowery stated that the following—that following the shooting, the action of the two cameramen who had pushed the camera from the area was brought to the attention of Lt. R. E. Swain, and they were taken to homicide and robbery bureau for questioning." unquote. The facts are, are that the cameramen were not taken to homicide and robbery bureau. I accompanied those men up on the third floor where they were allowed to set up their long range camera, and I stayed with those people for approximately an hour to an hour and a half until I contacted Lieutenant Baker in the homicide division and told him the reason that I was with those people, and he advised me to take their names and addresses, business address and business phone, and home phone number, and that it wouldn't be necessary to stay with them any longer. I took this information and turned it in to Lieutenant Baker and released the cameramen.
Mr.Hubert. Anything else you wish to say about it?
Mr.Lowery. I don't believe there is any other.
Mr.Hubert. 5082. Anything other about 5082?
Mr.Lowery. No, that is—nothing further.
Mr.Hubert. As to Exhibit 5083, I ask you if it is correct, do you have any changes or suggestions, or comments to make about it?
Mr.Lowery. On page 1, paragraph 2—let's see, "The contingent from the juvenile bureau consisted of Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby, Patrolman W. J. Harrison and myself, Lowery."
The facts are that Captain Martin, Lt. George Butler, Detective W. J. Cutchshaw, Detective L. B. Miller, Detective Charles Goolsby went from the third—juvenile bureau, on the third floor, room 314, city hall, down the elevator to the basement of the city hall. As we came off the elevator we met Patrolman W. J. Harrison coming up the hall from the police locker room, and he accompanied us to the location in the basement where Oswald was shot.
Mr.Hubert. When you say, "city hall," you mean the police department building, not the municipal building?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir. Police and courts building.
Mr.Hubert. All right, any further comments about Exhibit 5083?
Mr.Lowery. Now, I have one change here.
Mr.Hubert. On what page?
Mr.Lowery. On page 2, paragraph 3. Now, this is the only thing, the only change is—I don't know whether it is necessary for me to read the whole thing—is the TV station WPAB. In this report it says, "WPAB".
Mr.Hubert. It is atypographical——
Mr.Lowery. It is wrong.
Mr.Hubert. Yes, that's correct, and now, I don't think we have to do anything more about it.
Mr.Lowery. All right. Then, on page 2 in—let's see, this page 2, paragraph 4, and this will carry on to paragraph 1 of page 3. All right. "This police car had its red lights on, flashing, and there were two or three officers in the car."
That is a mistake. The facts are is this police car was a marked squad car, occupied by one officer, and that officer was Officer O'Dell, who is a patrolman, and as far as I can say, he was alone in the car. Only person in the car. All right. On page 3, this also is in paragraph 1. "He did not know who this individual was until his hat fell off in the melee and he saw it was Jack Ruby whom he has known for several years."
The facts are that at approximately the same instant the shot was fired, or within a fraction of a second thereafter, I did recognize the person firing the shot as being Jack Ruby.
Mr.Hubert. The correction there being that you recognized him before his hat fell off, is that what you mean?
Mr.Lowery. Well, I couldn't definitely say that I recognized him before his hat fell off. Idon't——
Mr.Hubert. Did you recognize him before he fired the shot?
Mr.Lowery. Well, it seemed like to me at the same time. Now, of course, this happened directly in front of me, closer than—about half of the distance between the two of usand——
Mr.Hubert. Let the record show that the witness indicates the distance that I would judge to be approximately 6 feet.
Mr.Lowery. Well, he would be within 4 feet, I think. That Jack Ruby would be within 4 feet of me.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say that the distance that I judge is 6 feet, you think is about two-thirds of that distance?
Mr.Lowery. That's right. Three to 4 feet, and I couldn't say that Jack Ruby's hat—I couldn't say whether the hat had fallen off or not.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
All right. Now, you have looked over the other pages of 5083, and handed it back to me, are there any corrections or deletions or—wrong statements or anything that you would like to comment upon?
Mr.Lowery. Best I can remember the rest of it is fairly accurate.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I want to have you identify a chart of the basement area of the Dallas Police Department and I am marking upon it for the purposes of identification the words, "Dallas, Tex., March 25, 1964. Exhibit Number 5084, deposition of R. L. Lowery." And I am signing my name below that, and just for the purposes of identification, I wish you would sign your name below it, too, below my name.
I would like you to look at the mockup here and—if you will come over here with me, we can put the chart and the mockup together, and I would like you to—by using the mockup, point to the place on the mockup where you were standing and then we will mark it on the map.
Mr.Lowery. All right. I was standing exactly at this point here [indicating]. In fact, the corner—I was leaning back against the corner, and I could feel it exactly between my shoulder blades.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, I am marking a circle right here as the point that you are talking about?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir; and that would be on the southwest corner.
Mr.Hubert. Southwest corner of the intersection of the jail corridor and the ramp?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I am marking a circle around the position you have indicated and I am writing the words, "Position of R. L. Lowery at the time of the shooting," which I am also placing in a circle. Now, is that correct, sir? That was your position?
Mr.Lowery. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how long had you been in that position prior to the shooting?
Mr.Lowery. Well, I couldn't definitely say how long I had been at that one particular position. I had been in this area for, oh, from approximately 10 minutes. I had been within a few feet of there. I just took this position a few minutes, and—or maybe a couple of minutes before the shooting actually took place, but I was standing within a few feet of that point.
Mr.Hubert. At the moment of the shooting, you were in precisely that position?
Mr.Lowery. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you would judge you had been in that position about 2 minutes?
Mr.Lowery. I don't believe it would be any more than 2 minutes' time. I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. You were facing then in the general direction of the TV cameras?
Mr.Lowery. Well, when the actual shooting took place.
Mr.Hubert. And the time before that? I want to get both?
Mr.Lowery. Well, I looked both ways, both left and right.
Mr.Hubert. I'll ask you if you scanned the crowd?
Mr.Lowery. Well, in the direction of the TV cameras, the lights were so bright I couldn't have seen any people in the crowd. I could see forms, but I couldn't—I wouldn't be ableto——
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a detective, W. J. Harrison, I think he is called "Blackie" Harrison?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Was he in your line of vision?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Could you see him?
Mr.Lowery. I saw him shortly before the shooting. Now, at the time all the TV lights and everything were turned on, I don't recall seeing "Blackie" from that time until the shot was actually fired.
Mr.Hubert. I wonder if you would use the mockup first to place the position, approximately, of Harrison, the last time you were able to see him, and then translate that by placing a circle on the mapthat——
Mr.Lowery. Let me get squared away here. He would have been in this general area. I couldn't say in relation to this wall—to this guardrail. I would think they would have beenapproximately——
Mr.Hubert. Well, I am going to mark a line, which I am labeling as line "A, B," and then I want to ask you to take the pen and put the approximate position of Harrison the last time you saw him.
Mr.Lowery. Well, I would say about this [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, you have made an "X," and I am putting a circle about the "X," and drawing a line out and writing the following, "position of W. J. Harrison—" the approximate position, is that what you mean?
Mr.Lowery. Right.
Mr.Hubert. "The approximate position of W. J. Harrison when last seen by Lowery."
Mr.Lowery.Before——
Mr.Hubert. "Before the shooting." Right?
Mr.Lowery. Right.
Mr.Hubert. I am encircling that language and connecting it with the position marked "X." Now, can you give us any estimation of how long before the shooting was the last time that you saw Harrison?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir; I wouldn't make an attempt, because the time in my estimation I found that they were so far off that I couldn't—I just don't have any idea. It couldn't have been more than a couple of minutes.
Mr.Hubert. All right; you did not see him after that, though, did you?
Mr.Lowery. I saw him after the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. No; I mean after that position?
Mr.Lowery. As far as I remember, no, sir; I don't.
Mr.Hubert. Then you attribute your failure to see him to the fact that the TV lights had been turned on after that?
Mr.Lowery. Well, the TV lights were so bright. I don't remember seeing Harrison, but I don't say that I was completely blinded by the TV lights.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see Ruby come up from the crowd?
Mr.Lowery. Sir?
Mr.Hubert. Did you see Ruby come out from the crowd?
Mr.Lowery. The first time I saw Ruby he was lunging, and almost instantaneously the shot was fired, and I couldn't—I couldn't say that I saw him come from the crowd. I saw a blur, and about this time the shot was fired, and there is Jack Ruby right in front of me.
Mr.Hubert. What side of "Blackie" Harrison did Ruby come from with relation to Harrison himself?
Mr.Lowery. I couldn't say which sidethat——
Mr.Hubert. You don't know whether it was on Harrison's left side or right side?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember the automobile that went up the ramp just before the shooting that had a flashing red light on top of it and two or three officers in the car?
Mr.Lowery. Well, now, that is one of the statements we changed. I remember the marked squad car being driven with Officer O'Dell going up the—oh, we call it the north ramp, the wrong way, which—with his red lights on, but this car only had the one officer in it, the best I remember.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know Rio Pierce?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him drive a car up that ramp?
Mr.Lowery. I will say that between the time that Officer O'Dell went up the north ramp, I couldn't tell you in minutes or seconds how much time had elapsed, but there was a plain car, and I believe it was driven by Lieutenant Pierce, and he had a couple or three other officers. I couldn't say exactly how many officers were in the car, but it did go up the ramp with red lights on going up the north ramp to the Main Street entrance.
Mr.Hubert. That was after O'Dell had passed?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir; best I remember.
Mr.Hubert. So, that the statement—I would ask you to have another look at the statement, which is Exhibit 5083, and ask you if it is the statement that you previously corrected so that it would refer to O'Dell. Isn't it, in fact, correct insofar as it would deal with what you have just said about Pierce?
Mr.Lowery. Now, here is the statement we changed.
Mr.Hubert. I see your point, and that is that the O'Dell car did not have a red light on it?
Mr.Lowery. Yes, sir, it did, but the O'Dell was—the O'Dell car was a marked squad car, and that was the change that we made. This O'Dell's car was the first car to go up the ramp, and he was—there was only one person in the car.
Mr.Hubert. But, then, there was another markedcar——
Mr.Lowery. There was an unmarked car.
Mr.Hubert. There was an unmarked car, and that is Pierce?
Mr.Lowery. Pierce was the unmarked car, and he had another officer in the car. I couldn't tell you who, or how many, or who they were.
Mr.Hubert. What was the time interval between the O'Dell car movements up that ramp and Pierce's movements up that ramp?
Mr.Lowery. I couldn't—I couldn't—I'd be afraid to say exactly, but probably wasn't more than a minute in that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you follow the car, or the Pierce car up the ramp with your eyes, I mean?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir; if you will notice this [indicating] there is an offset here, and from my position here I would only see a short distance up the ramp, and there is also a drop down, air-conditioning and central-heating unit back in here that I would—if my view hadn't been obstructed by the line of peopleon that side I wouldn't have been able to see more than a few feet up the ramp.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody coming down? I understand from your statement that you could not have seen their faces as they came down the ramp because of the obstruction, but you could have seen feet, couldn't you?
Mr.Lowery. I wouldn't be able to. I didn't see anybody come down the ramp. They could have possibly gotten down there without me seeing them, but I didn't see any feet, or any person come down the ramp at all.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody climb over the rails from the parking area into the ramp on the Main Street side?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir; not that I remember. I couldn't see—couldn't see the rail from my position for the line of photographers and officers and the TV cameras and lights.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby thereafter?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him after that?
Mr.Lowery. Which point?
Mr.Hubert. After the shooting?
Mr.Lowery. Well, as I told you, the officers took him into the jail office, and I went into the jail office, and they were in the process of searching him, and he was struggling, and I held one—I believe his left leg. Had him down on his back, and I held his left leg while he was doing a quick shakedown and then he was taken to the elevator and upstairs, and that is the last that I saw of him.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Detective Lowery, have you anything else that you would like to add that you have not stated, or is not contained in these several exhibits we have identified here today?
Mr.Lowery. Well, I think they—I haven't been through the police report, the investigation in the police department made by Captain Jones. I believe that they had—a little more in detail.
Mr.Hubert. You are referring, I think, to a document contained in Commission's report 81-A, that is page 66, consisting of two pages and entitled, "Investigation of Operational Security Involving the transfer of Lee Harvey Oswald, November 24, 1963," which was supplied to the Commission by the Dallas Police Department through the attorney general.
Since I do not have an extra copy of this document, I am going to allow it to remain in the volume, but I am going to mark it for identification as I have marked the others, and that is, "Dallas, Texas, March 25, 1964, exhibit Number 5085," which purports to be an interview of you. Now wait—I'll finish the identification, 5085, deposition of R. L. Lowery, signing my name on the first sheet and placing my initials in the lower right-hand corner on the second sheet. This is an interview of R. L. Lowery, November 29, 1963, by Lt. P. G. McCaghren and Lt. C. C. Wallace. I think you have read this document, have you not, sir?
Mr.Lowery. Let me brush through it right quick. Idon't——
Mr.Hubert. All right. Referring to Exhibit 5085, do you now say that it is correct? Are there any changes you want to suggest, modifications to make?
Mr.Lowery. It is correct, as far as I know.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Anything else you want to say?
Mr.Lowery. No, sir; I believethat's——
Mr.Hubert. Now, have you been interviewed prior to the taking of the deposition by any member of the Commission? I don't think there was any interview between you and me before.
Mr.Lowery. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right, sir. Thank you very much.
The testimony of Capt. Frank Martin was taken at 2 p.m., on March 24, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Leon D. Hubert, Jr., assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Hubert. This is the deposition of Capt. Frank M. Martin of the juvenile division, Dallas Police Department. Captain Martin, my name is Leon D. Hubert. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. Under the provisions of Executive Order No. 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the joint resolution of Congress No. 137, and the rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with the Executive order and the joint resolution, I have been authorized by the Commission to take the sworn deposition of you, Captain Martin.
CaptainMartin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. I state to you that the general nature of the Commission's inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular to you, Captain Martin, the nature of the inquiry is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and any other pertinent facts that you may know about the general inquiry.
CaptainMartin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. No; Captain Martin, do—you have appeared here by virtue of a general request made by the general counsel on the staff of the President's Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry. Under the rules adopted by the Commission, you are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of this deposition, that the rules adopted by the Commission also provide that a witness may waive the 3-day written notice. Do you wish to waive that notice?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, will you rise and raise your right hand and I will now swear you. Do you solemnly swear that you will tell the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
CaptainMartin. I do.
Mr.Hubert. State your full name, Captain Martin.
CaptainMartin. Frank M. Martin.
Mr.Hubert. Your age, please?
CaptainMartin. Fifty-four.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you live?
CaptainMartin. 906 West Five Mile Parkway.
Mr.Hubert. What is your occupation today, and how long have you been in that occupation?
CaptainMartin. I am a police officer in Dallas. I have been in it for 30 years.
Mr.Hubert. Your rank is what now?
CaptainMartin. Captain.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you held the rank of captain, sir?
CaptainMartin. Since 1951, about 13 years.
Mr.Hubert. What are your particular duties with the Dallas Police Department?
CaptainMartin. I have charge of the juvenile bureau. We handle all juvenile affairs.
Mr.Hubert. Now, captain, I have two documents here which I am going to mark for identification and then I will question you concerning them. Now, I am marking this document March 24, 1963, addressed to Chief J. E. Curry, the original of which apparently was signed by you. Marking this as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit No. 5058, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin, and I'm signing my name to that document which consists of one page, and I'm also marking another document which apparently is the report of an interview of you, Captain Martin, by Special Agents of the FBI, to wit: Alvin J. Zimmerman and Joseph G. Peden, on December 2nd, 1963." The document consists of one full page, marking the first page as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, 1964. Exhibit 5059. Deposition of F. M. Martin." Signing my name on that. I am placing my initials on the second page of that document in the lower right-hand corner. Now, Captain, I believe that you have only recently, that is to say, about 2 or 3 hours ago, had occasion to read both of these documents?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. 5058 and 5059. I now ask you if those documents represent the truth, or whether there are any modifications or deletions oradditions——
CaptainMartin. Well, of course,there——
Mr.Hubert. That you would like to make in it?
CaptainMartin. This "Miller," they have there once, where it should be my name in the first paragraph.
Mr.Hubert. I think you are speaking of the third line, the first page of Exhibit 5059, where the second sentence starts, "Capt. Miller," and apparently the sense of it would be, that since they are speaking of you, it would be "Capt. Martin," is that right?
CaptainMartin. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. I am, therefore, going to circle the word "Miller," and—with a circle, and an extension line indicates that it had been changed by putting my initial on it, and I am going to ask you at a later time to put your initials on it, too.
CaptainMartin. All right.
Mr.Hubert. Other than that, that document speaks the truth, as far as you know?
CaptainMartin. Yes. There is one area in there in the ramps that I don't quite understand. Did he mean the ramp, or does he mean the door into the building, the corridor dooror——
Mr.Hubert. Now, then, I think you are speaking of the second to the last sentence in the last paragraph on the first page of Exhibit 5059, sentence which reads as follows, to wit: "He advised that auxiliary officers were stationed at each ramp."
CaptainMartin. Right.
Mr.Hubert. "And that to his north, this was the only entrance to the compound which Ruby could have used." Now, what is it that you would like to say about that, sir?
CaptainMartin. There is a double door going into this basement at the city hall which I wouldn't consider a ramp. They never considered it that. I don't know, but it is more or less a corridor, or hallway going into the basement.
Mr.Hubert. There is a corridor, you say, that leads from the jail building into the basement area?
CaptainMartin. It is from the garage area into the basement.
Mr.Hubert. I see.
CaptainMartin. I don'tknow——
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, did you make any statement to them about auxiliary officers being stationed at any place?
CaptainMartin. Yes. Yes; I told them that there were, but I meant the two ramps coming into the basement from the outside.
Mr.Hubert. I see. In other words, what you want to clarify about this is that what you meant when you made reference to auxiliary officers and ramps, that you meant the entrances or exits at the street level of the Main and Commerce ramps?
CaptainMartin. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. And, you did not have reference to the officers at other passageways?
CaptainMartin. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. All right. I might ask you in connection with that same thing, what do you mean by the word "compound"?
CaptainMartin. I didn't use that.
Mr.Hubert. Didn't use that word?
CaptainMartin. No; that must be theirs.
Mr.Hubert. What do you understand there, because the report is that you said "That this was the only entrance into the compound which Ruby could have used"?
CaptainMartin. I didn't use that word.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did you express any such thought and if so, what were you referring to?
CaptainMartin. Of course, what they are referring to by "compound," is the area right outside the jail door there.
Mr.Hubert. You mean what is commonly called the basement area including the parking area, the garage area, the two ramps and the space between the two ramps?
CaptainMartin. I am sure it is, because I didn't use the word "compound."
Mr.Hubert. Let's look at it this way, would this statement be correct then if we changed the word "compound," to be defined as the general basement area as I just defined it a moment ago?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So, then it would be correct to say that, to your knowledge, the two ramps, to wit, those—the one leading from Main Street, and the one leading from Commerce Street were the only entrances to the basement area, as we defined it a moment ago, that Ruby could have used?
CaptainMartin. More that he could have used, yes; but, of course,you——
Mr.Hubert. Of course, this says the only entrance, and if you wish to qualifyit——
CaptainMartin. We were speaking of these two ramps. And we were talking of him coming down into the basement off the street.
Mr.Hubert. Yes, sir.
CaptainMartin. Of course, you have got the city hall. I mean, the police and courts building, and also got the city hall. He could have been—come down the elevator over here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. I take it you want to modify this statement then so that your present opinion is that it is not correct to say that the Main Street and the Commerce Street entrances were the only mode of entrance to the basement?
CaptainMartin. No, no; there are other ways to get in there.
Mr.Hubert. That is what I mean. What other ways are there?
CaptainMartin. There is—coming from the police and courts building to the basement, or you can come down the elevator in the city hall into the garage area and come across, but as far as I remember, that wasn't brought up. They were speaking of those two ramps.
Mr.Hubert. Well, let me ask you this: Was the explanation that we have now put into the record, are you satisfied that this document, 5059, is substantially correct?
CaptainMartin. I don't know exactly what he means here by "He knew of no unauthorized persons to be in the basement."
I don't knowwhat——
Mr.Hubert. Well, sir; if you wish to modify that in any way so that we now know what you are thinking is about it. I ask you to please do so.
CaptainMartin. I don't quite—that is not very clear to me, "He knew of no unauthorized persons permitted to be in the basement."
Mr.Hubert. Let me get at it this way. Do you know what security precautions were being taken to be sure that unauthorized persons were not in the basement?
CaptainMartin. Yes; they had men at the top of both of the outside ramps, and I presume that they were supposed to stop anybody coming in, but apparently they didn't.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know what was meant by "unauthorized persons"?
CaptainMartin. Well, there were so many people down there. The press, TV, radio. Of course, all had been checked before they came in. I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. Did you receive any specific instructions, yourself, as to checking?
CaptainMartin. I didn't receive any instructions at all.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know, or was there anything told to you whereby you could recognize an unauthorized person?
CaptainMartin. Nothing was said. Of course, if I'd had seen Jack Ruby, I'd have known him. I've known him for a long time.
Mr.Hubert. Did any of the people have identifying badges or anything of that sort?
CaptainMartin. No; so far as I know, they didn't. In fact, there was nothing—there was nothing said about who was to be down there and who wasn't. There was nothing said about anything—I didn't know anything about it.
Mr.Hubert. Well, when did you come on duty that day, sir?
CaptainMartin. That morning, it was my Sunday to work, 8:15.
Mr.Hubert. Now, did you have anything to do with the planning of the movement of Oswald?
CaptainMartin. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have any knowledge as to what the plan was?
CaptainMartin. I knew nothing. I just went down there. That's about it.
Mr.Hubert. Were you ordered to go down?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. By whom?
CaptainMartin. Chief Stevenson.
Mr.Hubert. About what time, sir?
CaptainMartin. Oh, I would say between 10:30 and 10:45, somewhere around there.
Mr.Hubert. Chief Stevenson is your immediate superior?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did he instruct you to do?
CaptainMartin. Just to go to the basement is all.
Mr.Hubert. Did he give you any specific duty to perform?
CaptainMartin. No.
Mr.Hubert. When you got there, what time was it?
CaptainMartin. I don't recall. It was a few minutes before 11, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do?
CaptainMartin. Well, I just got out there by the ramp and just stood there.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stand before the actual shooting of Oswald?
CaptainMartin. I imagine I was down there 20 or 25 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. I'm going to mark a chart. A chart of the basement area, as follows, to wit: "Dallas, Texas, March 24, Exhibit 5060, deposition of Capt. F. M. Martin." Signing it with my own name. Now, I would like to ask you, Captain, if you could sign the other three documents just below my name, that is to say, 5058 and 5059. Please initial a second page of 5058, below my initial and then sign 5059. I will ask you to sign for the purposes of identification under my name the document 5060. Now, Captain, it may be that you will want to look at this mockup here of the basement area, and then we will enter it on the map, but if you could show us where you stood on the mockup here, from the time you got down there at about 11, I think, until Oswald was shot, and you say you did not move around?
CaptainMartin. I wasn't in one spot all this time, but when he came out, of course, there was a car sitting right—I guess the back end of the car was coming to about here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. All right, now, you are showing the back end of the car, and I am going to, with a pen draw in on Exhibit 5060, the approximate position of the back end of the car as you demonstrated it.
CaptainMartin. Be about right there [indicating]. No; not that far. About right here.
Mr.Hubert. About like so?
CaptainMartin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I have drawn on the map a rough image of a car, by using simply a square, and I have marked it "car". Now, would you take the pen, sir, and—your own pen, and mark by the use of a circle your position with reference to the car at the time of the shooting. Now, let's get that.
CaptainMartin. I was about right here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, would you just write in your own handwriting there, "The position of F. M. Martin at the time of the shooting." Now, Captain, you think you—you said you had been in that general basement area for about 20 minutes prior to the shooting?
CaptainMartin. I would say that. I don't know for sure.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see anybody you knew?
CaptainMartin. Well, most of the press I knew. No one outside of the press that I knew.
Mr.Hubert. You did know Jack Ruby, I understand?
CaptainMartin. Yes; I knew Jack.
Mr.Hubert. And I think, that is already in report?
CaptainMartin. Yes; it is in here.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him?
CaptainMartin. Not until after the shooting.
Mr.Hubert. Were you looking at any time in the direction where you subsequently learned or believed he came from?
CaptainMartin. No; not directly. Of course—Where is your map? I couldn't have seen him from—if I would have been, because there were people all along here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, to your right, is that right?
CaptainMartin. Yes; across here [indicating]. And all up in here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. There were people between—on your right, between youand——
CaptainMartin.And——
Mr.Hubert. And the Main Street ramp?
CaptainMartin. Right.
Mr.Hubert. How many people were there in that general area?
CaptainMartin. I just would have to make an estimate.
Mr.Hubert. That's right.
CaptainMartin. I would say between me and where he was, there was 8 or 10 people.
Mr.Hubert. I'm going to mark off an area in the Main Street ramp by just drawing with a pencil a square, and putting, "Area A," in it and I will ask you if you can tell us in the "Area A," marked on this map, what were the conditions with respect to the number of people and so forth. Not exactly. I know you didn't count heads, but just how crowded were the conditions?
CaptainMartin. As well as I can remember there weren't too many people up in that—up that far. There were 2 or 3 cars parked in the ramp there.
Mr.Hubert. You mean in the Main Street ramp?
CaptainMartin. Now, wait a minute. You have got MainStreet——
Mr.Hubert. I marked this as "Area A," on Main Street?
CaptainMartin. No, no; across this ramp there, there was quite a number of people.
Mr.Hubert. That is in the space I have marked "Area A"?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Roughly how many people?
CaptainMartin. Oh, I'd say 15 or 20.
Mr.Hubert. Were they standing shoulder to shoulder?
CaptainMartin. Yes; more or less.
Mr.Hubert. How many ranks deep would you think?
CaptainMartin. I don't know.
Mr.Hubert. Well, would you regard it as a crowd?
CaptainMartin. Yes; I would. Mostly the press. There were some officers in that area also.
Mr.Hubert. I think this Officer Harrisonwas——
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him?
CaptainMartin. Yes, yes; he—he is one of my men. He was standing, oh, just about at the edge of the ramp there.
Mr.Hubert. Would you mark on the map by the use of a circle where you think Harrison was at the time?
CaptainMartin. Harrison was about right here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. That is at the time of the shooting?
CaptainMartin. Yes; uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. Would you just extend this with a little line and then write out, "Position of"—what are his initials? W. J.?
CaptainMartin. W. J.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Captain Martin, let me see if I can get something clear. Was Detective Harrison in front of Oswald, or to one or the other sides of him?
CaptainMartin. This happened so fast it is really hard to tell.
Of course, Oswald and the two officers came out this door.
Mr.Hubert. That is the jail door?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When they got just about, oh, 2 or 3 feet from Harrison, therewas a movement over here [indicating]. I couldn't tell what it was. I could tell there was a movement.
Mr.Hubert. By "over here," youmean——
CaptainMartin. On the ramp.
Mr.Hubert. What side of the ramp? The basement—the garage?
CaptainMartin. The garage. The garage side. Evidently Ruby was standing right here [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you say "here," you'd better put a mark and put a little arrow to it, your best recollection as to where Ruby must have been. You didn't see Ruby?
CaptainMartin. No, no; this is just supposition. He had to be right in here somewhere.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, just put a mark and a line and indicate where he was.
CaptainMartin. I didn't see him, but he had to be right there [indicating]. There is no question about that.
Mr.Hubert. You did see someone come from that position?
CaptainMartin. It was a movement. I didn't see anybody, but there was a movement in there that I could detect, and then the shot was fired.
Mr.Hubert. What did you write here?
CaptainMartin. "Ruby before the shooting." Or, "immediately before."
Mr.Hubert. All right, just tell us what you observed?
CaptainMartin. Well, as soon as the shot was fired, of course, it dumbfounded me, and I tried to get through the people there on my right, to get over there to it, and there was a lot of confusion in there, and I had trouble getting through the press, and when I did get through they had already taken Ruby into the jail office and Oswald was also in the jail office. Ruby was down on the floor just inside the jail, and Oswald was lying on the north side of the jail office.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, when Oswald first came out of the jail office with Graves and Leavelle, were you looking at him?
CaptainMartin. I saw him come out. Now, whether it was—it was shortly after they come out—I saw him after the shot was fired.
Mr.Hubert. You were looking towards him?
CaptainMartin. Yes; I thought they were coming all around me and go up by me and go up to the armored car, that is what I had in mind.
Mr.Hubert. You were not aware that the plans had been changed so that they—he was going to be taken in a police car, rather than in the armored car?
CaptainMartin. No; I didn't know anything about it.
Mr.Hubert. But, did you know anything about the route that was going to be used?
CaptainMartin. No, as far as I knew, they were going to put him in the armored truck. That is the reason I was standing there, because I figured they would come right back there and I could go up there with them, but they didn't ever make it.
Mr.Hubert. Did you observe what other officers were doing, or in what direction they were looking about the time that Oswald came out?
CaptainMartin. No; I didn't personally observe it, except on TV later. At the time I didn't notice them.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, at the time that Oswald came out, you were looking where—you were looking towards Oswald, and if I understand it, you are not in a position to tell us now what other people were doing except what you saw later on television, is that right?
CaptainMartin. That's right.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now do you have, any comment about what you saw on—later on television?
CaptainMartin. Well, it seems that all the officers were watching Oswald when they should have been watching the crowd.
Mr.Hubert. But, that impression you formed by looking at the television coverage of it?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And, you did not form that impression at the time the shot was fired?
CaptainMartin. No; I hadn't noticed them then. In fact, I was over where I couldn't see them.
Mr.Hubert. When was the first time that you did recognize Ruby as the man who shot Oswald?
CaptainMartin. When I went in the jail office.
Mr.Hubert. You didn't know it until then?
CaptainMartin. No; I saw him on the floor. Then I heard somebody say it was Jack Ruby, and I went in there and saw him.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say anything to you?
CaptainMartin. No.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear him say anything at all?
CaptainMartin. There was so much going on, I don't know whether he said anything or not. First thing I heard was somebody said, "He has been shot." And then there was confusion. I don't know who said that.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to talk to Ruby at any time thereafter?
CaptainMartin. No, no.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Captain Martin, is there anything else you would like to say concerning any aspect of this matter at all?
CaptainMartin. I—don't take this down.
Mr.Hubert. Well, if you don't want to say it on the record, you'd better not say it at all.
CaptainMartin. There is a lot to be said, but probably be better if I don't say it.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I don't know what you meanby——
CaptainMartin.Well——
Mr.Hubert. That it would be better. What we are seeking to find out is the facts on it.
CaptainMartin. I understand.
Mr.Hubert. If what you have to say is more or less a matter of opinion, that is one thing. I don't want to ask you to express your opinion, but any facts you know that you think might bear upon this matter, I would ask that you state those facts.
CaptainMartin. Well, there is not but one thing that I could say about the whole business. Of course, we are not experienced in handling this sort of a prisoner. I don't guess anybody is, as far as that goes, but the way I saw it, there was no organization at all. I didn't know who was in charge or anything about it. I don't guess anybody—either people should have been told something—what to do and what to expect. Weweren't——
Mr.Hubert. All right, sir. Have you any other facts that you think have any bearingupon——
CaptainMartin. No, no; I don't think so. I think it is more or less in that report there [indicating].
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, you are talking about the documents you have identified?
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, other than the interview that I had with you this morning, have you been interviewed by any member of the Commission staff?
CaptainMartin. No, no.
Mr.Hubert. Now, but I did interview you this morning just prior to lunch, I think at which time we arranged for you to come to have your deposition taken.
CaptainMartin. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you perceive at the present time any inconsistency between the interview with me this morning and your testimony in the deposition this afternoon?
CaptainMartin. No, no. It is about the same.
Mr.Hubert. Did you state anything, or provide any material, state any facts in the course of the interview this morning which has not been developed in the record this afternoon?
CaptainMartin. I don't recall anything. If there is any you can think of, you can ask me and I will bring it out, but I don't recall a thing.
Mr.Hubert. No, sir; I don't. I am just obliged to ask these questions to wrap it up.
CaptainMartin. Uh-huh.
Mr.Hubert. We certainly thank you, Captain Martin, and I thank you personally and on behalf of the Commission for your cooperation in this matter. If at any time, if you know that there are some other facts that you may have overlooked, please feel completely free to get in touch with us so that we may find out what that fact may be. In other words, it is never too late to reveal a fact which has been omitted as a lapse of memory.
CaptainMartin. I don't know of a thing right now.
Mr.Hubert. Thank you very much.