Mr.Miller. The Main Street ramp.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you got out there—when you saw Cutchshaw and Lowery out there at the American Airlines, did you discuss with them this rumor about coming in with the camera?
Mr.Miller. I am sure we did, but again I couldn't—any definite words that were said or anything like that, I couldn't be sure.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember anybody in that group saying that he saw a man come by with a camera?
Mr.Miller. Well, the best I remember, Detective Lowery, I believe it was, said something about this camera coming by, and I vaguely remember the camera coming by myself, but as far as a number of men and who they were that were bringing this camera in, again I couldn't say.
Mr.Griffin. How about Harrison? Did he indicate at that time that he remembered the camera?
Mr.Miller. Not that I recall; no.
Mr.Griffin. How about Cutchshaw?
Mr.Miller. No.
Mr.Griffin. So Lowery was the only one that you can remember talking about the camera, having seen this camera come by?
Mr.Miller. He is the only one that I recall, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is there anything else you want to tell us about the events of Sunday, November 24th?
Mr.Miller. Well, I don't remember anything that I could tell. If I was asked a question on it and knew the answer on it, I would be more than glad to answer the question.
Mr.Griffin. Have you heard any rumors concerning anyone who might have seen Ruby down in the basement prior to the shooting of Oswald? (Pause) Is your answer "No"?
Mr.Miller. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Tell me. Were you down in the basement when Rio Pierce's car drove out of the basement?
Mr.Miller. I remember a car driving out, which would be the wrong way up towards Main Street, but as far as remembering who was driving the car, I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you standing when that car drove out?
Mr.Miller. I was standing by the door to the jail office, the door that comes out into the garage portion of the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Who stationed you there?
Mr.Miller. Nobody. Like I was telling you before, we were out in this hallway, windows, jail office. Someone that was already out in the garagepart of the basement, I presume, passed back instructions for everybody to go out and line up on both sides of this hallway affair that comes out.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you when you received those instructions?
Mr.Miller. I was standing in this hallway outside of the jail office windows there. There is those double doors, swinging doors that come out into the garage portion of the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Were you on the garage side of the swinging doors?
Mr.Miller. No; in the basement proper.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that before Oswald came down?
Mr.Miller. I couldn't be definite on that, but it wasn't very long, possibly 10 minutes. I don't believe it could have been any longer than that.
Mr.Griffin. Now, then, where did you go to?
Mr.Miller. From the basement proper, after the orders was passed back to go outside and line up on both sides, I got on what would be the north side of this little hallway in the garage portion of the basement, where the ramp comes in, through the hallway that comes out there, I was on the north side of that and would be on the east side of the door that goes into the jail office.
Mr.Griffin. And were you keeping an eye out in the basement for people who might obstruct Oswald?
Mr.Miller. Pardon.
Mr.Griffin. Were you keeping a look, a watch out, from your position for people who might try to obstruct Oswald?
Mr.Miller. I was kind of watching the crowd and that, but as far as having a feeling that anything was going to happenor——
Mr.Griffin. You were watching the crowd?
Mr.Miller. As to orders to do any particular thing.
Mr.Griffin. Where was the crowd that you were watching?
Mr.Miller. They were across the ramp that goes down through there.
Mr.Griffin. Were they up against the railing?
Mr.Miller. Part of them were up against the railing, part of them, the best I remember, on the east side of the railing.
Mr.Griffin. And how about, were the people strung across the Main Street ramp from the direction of the jail house, the jail office, to the railing?
Mr.Miller. The best I remember, there was.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, how many lines deep would you say there were of people along—crossing the Main Street ramp on the north side just before Oswald came out?
Mr.Miller. I recall of people being there, but as to how many rows there were or a definite number of people, it would be hard to say. The only thing on that that I could say definitely was that there were people there, and as to how many, it would just be next to impossible to say.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as Pierce's car came out, what did you do? As Pierce's car came out of the garage, what did you do?
Mr.Miller. I didn't do anything that I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Did you look at it?
Mr.Miller. I remember seeing a car going out the wrong way up to Main Street, but as far as looking inthe——
Mr.Griffin. Did you watch it go up the ramp?
Mr.Miller. No; because once it passes this wall there, it passes out of view.
Mr.Griffin. Did you keep an eye on the newsmen in that area as they re-formed?
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did, but looking over the crowd and everything, it would be hard not to see them re-form, or whatever you call it.
Mr.Griffin. Where was Blackie Harrison standing when Pierce's car went out?
Mr.Miller. I didn't see Officer Harrison that I remember when this car drove out.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Officer Harrison at any time down in the basement after you took your position along the north wall just outside of the jail office?
Mr.Miller. It is possible that I did, but as far as remembering seeing him or saying anything to him after that, I couldn't say definitely.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you what I have marked for purposes of identification as Miller Exhibits 5013 and 5014. Now, Exhibit 5013 is a copy of a report made by FBI Agents Wilkinson and Hardin of an interview that they had with you on December 3, 1963, and Exhibit 5014 is a copy of a statement that you made or a letter that you addressed to Chief Curry on November 26, 1963, entitled, "Subject: Shooting of Harvey Oswald." I am going to ask you to take these and go out into the other office and look them over and then let me know whether there are any additions, corrections, changes of any sort that you would want to make in those.
(Recess.)
Mr.Griffin. For your purposes, Mr. Ward, may I say that we have Mr L. D. Miller back with us.
And have you had a chance to look over Exhibits 5013 and 5014?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. To your recollection, are those accurate reports of—looking at 5013, the FBI report, is that an accurate report of what you told the FBI at that time?
Mr.Miller. Well, there is part of it in here that is a little confusing. It could mean one thing and then it could mean another.Now——
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember that interview?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And are you able to state from your memory whether that is an accurate report of what you told them at that time?
Mr.Miller. There is one part in here. Let me find it. It was, when the officers were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down, there were officers stationed on both sides of the ramp. The officers that came down were stationed on both sides of the ramp. I don't recall telling the FBI that there were already officers stationed there.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Let me see if there was some way you can mark that on there. Where is this?
Mr.Miller. Right here.
Mr.Griffin. Would you want to take this, take my pen, and amend that so that it reflects what your best recollection is that you told them at that time?
Mr.Miller. Let's see. Where do you want me to put it?
Mr.Griffin. You can either write it downbelow——
Mr.Miller. The whole thing would have to be reworded. This like this makes more sense to me what I told them.
Mr.Griffin. All right. You have written there, "The officers that were sent to the ramp area prior to Oswald being brought down were stationed on both sides of the ramp." Were you present when the instructions were given to the officers generally as to where to go?
Mr.Miller. To line up on bothsides——
Mr.Griffin. Yes?
Mr.Miller. Of the ramp area where Oswald was to be brought through.
Mr.Griffin. Yes. Were you present at that time?
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Who gave those instructions?
Mr.Miller. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what you were told to do, if anything, when Oswald got to you?
Mr.Miller. I wasn't told what to do.
Mr.Griffin. Now, are there any other corrections that you want to make in that?
Mr.Miller. Yes. "Miller said he had no other pertinent information concerning the shooting of Oswald." I wasn't asked if I had any more information to give to them. I answered their questions, the questions they asked me. They did not ask me if I had any other pertinent information to add.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Would you change that on there, then, and state, cross that out, and put something through there and say, "I was not asked if I had pertinent information"? Now, did you in fact at that time have pertinent information, other than what they asked you about?
Mr.Miller. None that I knew of. It is like now. It could be possible thatyou would ask me a question that I would remember something other than what I have told you, but I wouldn't know what it would be.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you have any other corrections that you want to make on this FBI report?
Mr.Miller. Everything else on it looks like it is just about the way it should be.
Mr.Griffin. Would you, then, initial the corrections that you have made on here and date it?
Mr.Miller. Where do you want it initialed?
Mr.Griffin. Any other place, right next to it. And will you initial the other correction, date it?
Now, directing your attention to Exhibit 5014, and is that a true and accurate copy of the letter that you wrote to Chief Curry on November 26?
Mr.Miller. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you sign that letter and date it, sign the piece of paper somewhere down there near the bottom and date it, and would you sign over here on Exhibit 5013, the point where I identified the document, would you write, sign your name, and date it?
Now, let me ask you one final thing. I take it that you have told us everything at this time that you can remember about the events that I have questioned you about?
Mr.Miller. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. And you have mentioned everything to us at this point that you can remember which you think is pertinent to our investigation?
Mr.Miller. Everything that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. Now, if anything else in the future comes to your attention that you think might be pertinent to this investigation, would you come forward and tell us about it?
Mr.Miller. Yes; sure will.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Okay. Thank you very much.
Mr.Miller. Do you want me to call you, if I check, bring the book up to the office?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Miller. I am sure I did work that day.
Mr.Griffin. If you would, bring the book to us.
Mr.Miller. I wouldn't be allowed to bring the book out of the office. It carries the duties time. Everybody's name is in the same book.
Mr.Griffin. All right. If you would, call us and let us know the pertinent details.
Mr.Miller. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Thank you.
The testimony of William J. Newman was taken at 11 p.m., on March 25, 1964, in the office of the U.S. attorney, 301 Post Office Building, Bryan and Ervay Streets, Dallas, Tex., by Mr. Burt W. Griffin, assistant counsel of the President's Commission.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Newman, my name is Burt Griffin. I am a member of the advisory staff of the general counsel's office of the President's Commission on the Assassination of President Kennedy. This Commission was set up pursuant to an Executive order of President Johnson on November 29th, 1963, and under a joint resolution of Congress, No. 137. The Commission has prescribed a set of rules of procedure. Pursuant to those rules I have been authorized to take your sworn deposition.
I want to tell you a little bit about what the general nature of the inquiry is. Of course, this was set up, as you know, after President Kennedy was assassinated and Lee Oswald died. Our instructions are to investigate, evaluateand report back to President Johnson on all the facts surrounding the assassination of the President and the murder of Lee Oswald.
Now, that includes going into the background of Oswald and Ruby, their associations and their motives anything that you can think of about them. We have no authority to send anybody to jail, except for perjury. We are not like the grand jury, in the sense if we find a crime, and we are not conducting this examination with the thought that anybody else is going to use this information to prosecute for crimes of anybody except for perjury.
The most important motivating force, I think, in this investigation is one of national security, not only from the standpoint of finding out as much as we can so that we can learn how to prevent all of the occurrences that have taken place in the last four months from ever happening again, but also, so we can determine if there is any possibility that there was more than one person involved with either one of these two men.
Now, we have asked you to appear here primarily to develop facts in connection with the murder of Oswald, but if you have any sort of information that would be relevant to the entire scope of our investigation, we would like to have it.
Now, in particular you have been asked to appear here by virtue of a general request which was made by the General Counsel of the Commission, Mr. J. Lee Rankin, to Chief Curry, a letter was sent to Chief Curry and a whole list of names was on that letter, and we indicated that we were going to examine these people. Under the rules of the Commission, you are entitled to receive 3-day written notice personally from the Commission, and that hasn't been sent to you. However, you may waive that notice, and some people insist on it and others don't. It doesn't make any difference to us, but I would ask you now whether you would like us to give you the written notice or whether you are willing to waive the written notice?
Mr.Newman. No; I will be willing to waive it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I notice that you don't have an attorney here, and that you are also permitted to have an attorney in any appearance before us, and if you have any thought that this would be something that you think would be desirable, don't hesitate to say so, because, again, many people have had attorneys here, even down here in Dallas, and we would be happy to go home and go to bed tonight and take up at a more convenient time.
Do you want an attorney?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to ask you to raise your right hand and be sworn.
Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give is the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Newman. I do.
Mr.Griffin. Will you state your full name, please?
Mr.Newman. William J. Newman.
Mr.Griffin. And when were you born, Mr. Newman?
Mr.Newman. January 31, 1937.
Mr.Griffin. Where do you live?
Mr.Newman. My street address?
Mr.Griffin. Yes, sir.
Mr.Newman. 10923 Cotillion.
Mr.Griffin. Cotillion?
Mr.Newman. [Nods head.]
Mr.Griffin. Is that in Dallas?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. And what's your occupation?
Mr.Newman. I am a mechanical engineer.
Mr.Griffin. Where are you employed?
Mr.Newman. Ling-Temco-Vought.
Mr.Griffin. Ling-Temco—L-i-n—[spelling]?
Mr.Newman. L-i-n-g T-e-m-c-o V-o-u-g-h-t [spelling]. Three words.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been employed there?
Mr.Newman. Approximately 6 years.
Mr.Griffin. Now, are you also a member of the Dallas Police Reserve?
Mr.Newman. That's correct.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been a member of the police reserve?
Mr.Newman. Well, 18 months.
Mr.Griffin. I ask you, are you a graduate engineer?
Mr.Newman. No; I am not.
Mr.Griffin. How many years of education have you had?
Mr.Newman. I had a year and a half.
Mr.Griffin. Of college?
Mr.Newman. College education.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you attend college?
Mr.Newman. Arlington State.
Mr.Griffin. Is that at Arlington, Tex.
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Is that right here in the general area of Dallas?
Mr.Newman. Yes; it's midway between Dallas and Fort Worth.
Mr.Griffin. And what kind of courses did you take at Arlington State?
Mr.Newman. Just general engineering courses.
Mr.Griffin. How long have you been employed at Ling-Temco-Vought?
Mr.Newman. About 6 years.
Mr.Griffin. And, can you tell us something about the nature of your duties with your employer?
Mr.Newman. I'm a design engineer and lead man. I am responsible for four or five draftsmen on a given project.
Mr.Griffin. What do you mean you are a design engineer; what sort of things do you do?
Mr.Newman. Well, it's mechanical design of high-power transmitters, radar transmitters, mostly, electronic circuits.
Mr.Griffin. Do you put things on drawing boards?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. And do you work from plans that other people draw up or plans that other people conceive, or are you responsible to come up with ideas?
Mr.Newman. I work from an electrical schematic, and I am responsible for the mechanical design and supervision of the other men, to make sure this work is carried out.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you work under a graduate engineer of some sort?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you go through a training program before you became a member of the police reserves?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that training program?
Mr.Newman. Approximately 9 months.
Mr.Griffin. And how often did you go to school?
Mr.Newman. It was 2 hours a night, 1 night a week.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any compensation in connection with your services on the police reserves?
Mr.Newman. None whatsoever.
Mr.Griffin. Why does anyone want to be a member of the police reserve?
Mr.Newman. Well, civic responsibility, I guess.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any little side benefits of any sort?
Mr.Newman. Well, yes. You mean in the way of favors, this type of thing?
Mr.Griffin. No; I don't know, not necessarily that, butwhat——
Mr.Newman. I enjoy it because I do office work, indoors, and this is a way of getting out, little something to break the routine.
Mr.Griffin. Are there favors and what not that you can get on account of this?
Mr.Newman. Oh, outside of maybe being overlooked of a traffic violation, I don't know of any.
Mr.Griffin. I don't want you to paint yourself too good in this way, because we had one guy who came in here and painted himself real good, and found out that he was making a mistake. Maybe I am a great skeptic.
Mr.Newman. Well, it's like I say, in my case I have always been interested in law enforcement and it is an outlet, hobby, so to speak.
Mr.Griffin. I want to say this, I finished interviewing Captain Arnett, and I found him to be a very fine gentleman, so on the basis of my experience, I don't have any reason to make these comments. Now, were you on duty with the reserves the day President Kennedy was shot?
Mr.Newman. I was that evening. That was some 6 or 7 hours after the assassination.
Mr.Griffin. I see. What time did you come on duty Friday evening?
Mr.Newman. 7 o'clock.
Mr.Griffin. When you got to the police station, who did you report to?
Mr.Newman. To Lieutenant Merrell.
Mr.Griffin. Where were you then assigned?
Mr.Newman. I was then assigned to ride observation with the Radio Patrol Squad 113.
Mr.Griffin. What did riding observation consist of?
Mr.Newman. Well, this is our normal assignment. We don't normally take part in police activities unless we are directed by a regular officer.
Mr.Griffin. But you were riding around in the district someplace?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. Did this permit the regular officer to be relieved for other duties?
Mr.Newman. No, it didn't.
Mr.Griffin. Would you have had to come in on Friday night anyhow?
Mr.Newman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Now, on Saturday night, on Saturday, were you at the police department?
Mr.Newman. No; none at all Saturday.
Mr.Griffin. On Sunday, did you come in?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, how did you happen to get called in on Sunday?
Mr.Newman. I was called by Sergeant Sullivan.
Mr.Griffin. About what time do you believe Lieutenant Merrell called you?
Mr.Newman. It was approximately 8:30 or 9 a.m.
Mr.Griffin. How do you fix that time?
Mr.Newman. I just say—I suppose it took me approximately an hour to get down there and I arrived about 9:30.
Mr.Griffin. You were called in the morning?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. 8:30 or 9 in the morning?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, prior to the time that he called you in the morning, had you heard anything about the possibility of moving Lee Oswald to the county jail?
Mr.Newman. Well, I knew he would be, of course, but I didn't know what time.
Mr.Griffin. Incidentally, on Friday night, were you on the third floor at all?
Mr.Newman. No; not at any time.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when you came in on Sunday where you parked your automobile?
Mr.Newman. Yes; I parked it across the street from the police garage on Canton.
Mr.Griffin. On what street?
Mr.Newman. On Canton, C-a-n-t-o-n [spelling].
Mr.Griffin. And, is that north, south, east, or west ofthe——
Mr.Newman. It's immediately south of the downtown area.
Mr.Griffin. And how far from Commerce Street; how many blocks from Commerce Street?
Mr.Newman. As I recall, I think it's 3 blocks.
Mr.Griffin. And is a police garage there?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you walk up Harwood?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And do you recall what entrance you entered?
Mr.Newman. I entered Commerce Street door that leads into the basement.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you have any recollection of whether there were any TV wires strung through there?
Mr.Newman. Yes; there was a large van parked on Commerce Street, on the corner of Commerce and Harwood, and there was all kinds of cables. I don't recall whether there were any going in that door or not. There might have been, possibly.
Mr.Griffin. Were there any TV cables coming down the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. Not to my recollection.
Mr.Griffin. I believe you spent some time after you were placed on duty over in the garage area?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. And, as I understand it, close to Commerce Street?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And you were guarding the door to the enginerooms, in that general area?
Mr.Newman. Well, the first thing, when I first got there, I was assigned to help search the automobiles that were parked in the garage.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I want to get to that. I am going to go a little backwards on this.
Mr.Newman. All right.
Mr.Griffin. I want to get the questioning. Where you were finally stationed prior to the time Oswald was shot, was that near the entrance, the doorway to the engineroom?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I am going to get a map, diagram here, and I would like for you to try to think back to that. I am going to mark this Newman Exhibit 5037. Now, Mr. Newman, this is a copy of the diagram of the basement area of the Police and Court Building in Dallas. I will try to explain it to you, and then if you have any questions, why, I will try to answer those. But you see in this area is the jail office, Harwood is off in this direction. There is Main, there is Commerce [indicating]. Now, this dotted line here running parallel to Commerce Street is actually the outside wall above ground level, and here would be Commerce Street, if you were at ground level, here would be the sidewalk, here would be the outside wall. However, when you are in the basement, this diagram purports to represent anyhow, that the basement wall is this solid black line over here, and I presume that that's true, although I have never checked it myself.
Mr.Newman. It looks to be.
Mr.Griffin. And do—these other black marks around here represent posts [indicating]. Now, would you indicate on this diagram where it was that you were stationed by—well, where it was you were stationed in connection with the security of the basement, after the search of the basement?
Mr.Newman. I was placed right at the place of this column. There is what this is, isn't it?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Newman. Do you want meto——
Mr.Griffin. Just an "X" there [indicating]. Now, as you were standing there, do you remember whether any TV cables ran through that general area?
Mr.Newman. There were none there.
Mr.Griffin. There were none. Were there any TV cables that you could see in the garage area?
Mr.Newman. By the garage area, you are talking about this area here [indicating]? I didn't see any.
Mr.Griffin. Now, there is an arrow here that says "to engineroom." Are you familiar with—is there a door over in that area?
Mr.Newman. Not a door as such. I don't believe it can be closed. It's just an opening there [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. There is an opening?
Mr.Newman. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. And you can walk into the engineroom there?
Mr.Newman. That's right. Actually walk—in fact, I didn't even know it was there until that morning, but you can walk onto a landing here and then down. The engineroom is some 5 or 10 feet lower than that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you stand in that general area all the time, from the time that Sergeant Dean placed you there until Oswald was shot?
Mr.Newman. No; there was one time when I was called back into the assembly room, back over here. I think they needed some men somewhere else. They picked four or five men and then I was returned to this place [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. How long before Oswald was shot would you estimate that you were pulled off this spot temporarily?
Mr.Newman. Oh, it must have been 45 minutes to an hour.
Mr.Griffin. All right. How long were you away from the area?
Mr.Newman. Five minutes.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Let me mark on here pulled off for 5 minutes, 45 minutes to 1 hour before Oswald shot [indicating]. Did anybody replace you?
Mr.Newman. No; they didn't—I better not make that statement. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Now, I want to go back and pick things up from the time you entered.
Mr.Newman. Okay.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what time was it when you arrived down there at the building?
Mr.Newman. Approximately 9:30 a.m.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you go?
Mr.Newman. I went to the assembly room.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you remain in the assembly room?
Mr.Newman. Just long enough to have my name in the unit taken down on the roster.
Mr.Griffin. When Lieutenant Merrell called you, did he tell you why you were to come down?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What did he tell you?
Mr.Newman. He said that Oswald was to be transferred at 10 o'clock, that they expected some crowds downtown and they thought they would need our help, or a crowd was gathering, I think is what—the way he had actually said it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall his telling you the time would be 10 o'clock?
Mr.Newman. I happened to remember it because I had to rush to get down there in time.
Mr.Griffin. Did he tell you anything else?
Mr.Newman. No; that was all.
Mr.Griffin. When you got down there, did you receive any instructions from somebody?
Mr.Newman. He and I walked out into the garage area there and we talked to some—to Sergeant Dean then.
Mr.Griffin. Had the search of the garage already begun when you arrived?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do in connection with the search?
Mr.Newman. I searched—well, we looked inside all the automobiles. We checked to make sure the trunk was locked, that the hood was securely latched, and this general area right in here, there were three or four of us working that area in there [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. And you are talking now about the Commerce Street half of the garage?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. What else did you do besides search the cars?
Mr.Newman. That was it, until I was assigned to that post.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see what Sergeant Dean did?
Mr.Newman. No; I didn't. The only time I remember seeing him, they found a sporting type rifle in a car somewhere. I think it was later identified as belonging to one of the officers. I saw him walking out with it.
Mr.Griffin. Now, during the period you were standing there in the garage, were you able to look over in the direction of the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see, during the period that you were in the garage, any automobiles moved out of the garage?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you remember when the armored car came down—was brought down the ramp?
Mr.Newman. No; I didn't even know it was there. I couldn't see it from my location. Well, the armored car wasn't brought down the ramp. It was just backed to the door.
Mr.Griffin. Was there ever a time that you were aware there was an armored car up there?
Mr.Newman. Not until after the shooting.
Mr.Griffin. Standing where you were standing was there anything that happened, what you would estimate, a half hour before Oswald was shot, that would be significant to fix the time?
Mr.Newman. No; the only thing I can recall at all, there was a pop-type noise in that area there. I found out later, when they opened the door to the armored car a soft drink bottle had rolled out and broken. That caused quite a commotion among the reporters and some of them went up the ramp to see what happened.
Mr.Griffin. Before you heard that pop-type noise, do you remember anything else before that that might be significant?
Mr.Newman. No. Other than the movement of the cars and the men in there, I can't recall anything.
Mr.Griffin. Now, directing your attention then to the pop-type noise, did you see any cars moved out of the basement after you heard the pop?
Mr.Newman. Yes; I am almost certain a car did leave after that.
Mr.Griffin. Saw a car leave or more than one car?
Mr.Newman. One is all I recall.
Mr.Griffin. Where was that car parked, if you recall?
Mr.Newman. Well, I am not too sure of that. I think it was parked in this area just to the bottom of this small ramp here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark on the map where you think that was? You want to mark car?
Mr.Newman. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. Where did you see that car move to?
Mr.Newman. Well, if its the one I am thinking about, they turned and went out the Main Street side. I recall there was a car came in. I think it was a squad that had a prisoner. I don't recall it leaving. It may have. I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. When did you recall a car coming in, before or after that car went out?
Mr.Newman. It must have been before.
Mr.Griffin. You say must have been, because somebody has told you that a car went out there?
Mr.Newman. No; but I am sure—I do recall this car left—oh, not over 5 or 10 minutes, if that long, before Oswald was brought in, and I do know that no other car left after that, or entered.
Mr.Griffin. Well, now, do you remember two cars being moved out of the garage up behind the armored van?
Mr.Newman. I recall one that was parked right here. I don't remember whether there were two or not, but there was definitely one parked right here on the level part of the ramp [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Did you see where that came from; where that car came from?
Mr.Newman. I don't recall, but I think it came from the parking area.
Mr.Griffin. But you didn't see it moved out of the parking area?
Mr.Newman. If I did, I don't recall. I am sure I did,but——
Mr.Griffin. When Sergeant Dean placed you in the basement, did you recall where he placed any of the other men?
Mr.Newman. No; I don't. The only one I remember was there was a regular officer—I don't know who he was. He was in this approximate area here. Do you want me to mark this [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Yes; go ahead. Why don't you put a "R" for regular?
Mr.Newman. [Indicating.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, do you recall whether there were any officers over here by elevators Nos. 1 and 2 and the service elevator?
Mr.Newman. I am almost certain there weren't any in the garage area, except he and I, immediately prior to the shooting. There was quite a few moving around through there before that.
Mr.Griffin. How long before that were they moving around?
Mr.Newman. Oh, I would say an hour before that, they were moving in and out.
Mr.Griffin. But let's take the 10 or 15 minutes before the shooting. Were there any men over by those elevators?
Mr.Newman. Not except the one man. I assume that was his job.
Mr.Griffin. The one man you have marked here with an "R"?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were you able to tell whether these elevators No. 1 and No. 2 were in operation?
Mr.Newman. No; there is no way I had of knowing. I could see the elevators, but I don't know whether they were in operation.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody go up or down those elevators in the hour that you were at your position?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell whether or not this service elevator was in operation?
Mr.Newman. That I don't know either.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see anybody in that service elevator?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Are you able to state positively that there was nobody, during the period you were here, who you saw in that service elevator?
Mr.Newman. No. I couldn't say that. I just say I couldn't see anyone.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you, during the time you were stationed here, did you see anybody come out of the engineroom area?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell from where you were stationed if there was anybody in there, a night watchman or anybody in that engineroom there?
Mr.Newman. No. I couldn't see if there was anybody in there.
Mr.Griffin. Now, in the 20 minutes or half hour before the shooting, how many cars would you say were parked in this part of the garage [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. Oh, I would estimate there were 20.
Mr.Griffin. Now, in that half hour before the shooting, was there any traffic in and out of that garage?
Mr.Newman. Just that one squad, that I recall.
Mr.Griffin. Now, from the time that you heard that Coke bottle drop, where was your attention focused, from your position?
Mr.Newman. At the time?
Mr.Griffin. From the time?
Mr.Newman. Oh, from the time?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. What were you looking at in there?
Mr.Newman. Well, my main concern was this room.
Mr.Griffin. I see.
Mr.Newman. I was looking occasionally throughout the rest of the area.
Mr.Griffin. Could you tell us how you faced from there, from where you have got yourself, what direction you were facing?
Mr.Newman. I was facing in this direction [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Did you have occasion at any time to look over in this area here [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. Not until immediately prior to the shooting.
Mr.Griffin. What directed your attention over there?
Mr.Newman. Someone yelled, "Here he comes." I believe, "Here they come," something to that effect.
Mr.Griffin. And you could hear that from over there?
Mr.Newman. [Witness nods head.]
Mr.Griffin. Now, how about when you saw an automobile move out of the garage? Did you follow that automobile—did you watch and see where that automobile went?
Mr.Newman. Not from the time it got on the ramp. I couldn't see but about two thirds of the ramp. I couldn't see the door.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, after that automobile left, did you continue to watch over in that direction?
Mr.Newman. No. There was nothing unusual about it.
Mr.Griffin. Prior to the time, or as the automobile was moving out, can you describe this area, in what I will call the entrance to the garage, describe how many people were in that area there?
Mr.Newman. Oh, I would estimate there were 40, 50, 60 people.
Mr.Griffin. Now, were there substantially more people in the area in the garageway than in the area along the Main Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. No; there were more people over in this area here, along this wall [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. How many people would you estimate wereover——
Mr.Newman. Well, that's what I meant, I would say over 40 or 50, total. Out of that, I wouldn't think there were more than 5 or 10, if that many, in this area here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Would you mark down here the placement of the people in that area at the time you heard somebody yell, "Here he comes."
Mr.Newman. You just want to know about this one area?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Newman. I don't recall specifically anyone being there at any particular place [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, over in this area, can you show me how they were placed over there [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. There was a group along this wall, there was a group over here that I could see [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, what's your estimate of the number of people that were in this group?
Mr.Newman. Oh, from what I could see, I would say maybe 20, just an estimate.
Mr.Griffin. Why don't you put about 20 there?
Mr.Newman. [Indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, how many people would you estimate were over in this cluster that you have marked there [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. From what I could see, it appeared to be about the same number.
Mr.Griffin. About 20 there. And, how many deep were they?
Mr.Newman. Oh, I couldn't see that much detail. I could just tell there was a crowd of people.
Mr.Griffin. Now, would you try to indicate how people were spaced over in here [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. Well, if there were, they were very sparse. I would just say individually.
Mr.Griffin. Now, why don't you just write in there "sparse."
Mr.Newman. [Indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where the TV cameras were placed?
Mr.Newman. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Would you indicate on that where the TV cameras were?
Mr.Newman. As I recall, there were three.
Mr.Griffin. Now, when you came into the basement the first time, did you see a TV camera over in this area here that I have pointed to [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. Not a large camera. There may have been a hand-held camera, but no large camera.
Mr.Griffin. What I am indicating on here, so the record will reflect, I ampointing to the area roughly in front of the jail office door. For anyone reading this, I will indicate also that this is an area in which Assistant Chief Batchelor indicated that sometime, that he is not sure of, in the early morning he saw a TV camera there, and he believes he had it moved. Now, I take it you don't recall any equipment of any sort being in this area in here, in the garage [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. TV equipment?
Mr.Griffin. Yes. In the entrance to the garage?
Mr.Newman. No; I don't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, is this a railing, incidentally [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. This is a small rail right here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. Let me write across here "rail." Now, from where you were standing, were you able to see over that rail?
Mr.Newman. Partially.
Mr.Griffin. How high is that rail?
Mr.Newman. It isn't over 3 feet.
Mr.Griffin. Is it a solid thing or is it a metalset——
Mr.Newman. Just made of pipes.
Mr.Griffin. Is it any different from the railings that's along the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. Same type railing, I believe.
Mr.Griffin. Same type of railing. And the railing that's marked in solid on the other side of the entrance to the garage next to the chief parking area, which I will also label rail, that's the same kind of railing as the ones over near the TV cameras?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. So, your vision from where you were standing was not substantially obstructed by any permanent parts of the building, from where the marked curb on the ramp is, all the way down, perhaps to this, all the way down to this railing here [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. It was somewhat obstructed by these columns, but nothing to keep me from getting an overall view of the area.
Mr.Griffin. Now, what do you recall happening after the automobile drove out of the drive and went up the Commerce Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. I don't recall anything until I heard that "Here he comes," called out.
Mr.Griffin. What did you do when you heard the "Here he comes"?
Mr.Newman. I looked up in that direction.
Mr.Griffin. And what did you see when you looked up in that direction?
Mr.Newman. All I saw was the newsmen congregating to that area.
Mr.Griffin. Where did they seem to be pushing in from?
Mr.Newman. Well, they were making a round in this general area in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You are indicating the area up in the ramp, Main Street ramp?
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How deep were they in the Main Street ramp, by that time?
Mr.Newman. I would guess two or three, but that's just a guess.
Mr.Griffin. Now, does that include policemen, also?
Mr.Newman. You mean the number of people?
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Newman. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you say the total number of people was two or three deep there?
Mr.Newman. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. Was it solid across from this wall to the railing?
Mr.Newman. Well, I couldn't see that much detail.
Mr.Griffin. Now, as you looked over in that direction, after you heard "Here he comes," and you saw this milling around, what is the next thing that you remember seeing?
Mr.Newman. Well, like I said, I saw these people congregating to this area. I did see a man come down this ramp [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You saw a man come down the ramp?
Mr.Newman. That's right.
Mr.Griffin. When did you see him come down the ramp?
Mr.Newman. It was just immediately after that was called out.
Mr.Griffin. And whereabouts did you first see him when he was on the ramp?
Mr.Newman. Oh, I would say in about the location of this arrow [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. You want to put a mark there?
Mr.Newman. [Indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, what did you see that man do?
Mr.Newman. He just ran down in here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Did he seem to run down into the center or to one side or what?
Mr.Newman. From the angle I was looking, I couldn't tell.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see that man—how that man was dressed?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see that man emerge?
Mr.Newman. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see Jack Ruby move forward at Lee Oswald?
Mr.Newman. No; I didn't.
Mr.Griffin. As you were standing here, could you see the areaway here [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. I don't think I could because of the car that was parked here. I don't recall seeing the area. I don't recall not seeing it. I don't much think I could, though, because there was a car parked right here [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. I am going to mark this in pencil. Is that about where this car was [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. I would say it was just about that location [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. All right. And is the way we have got this drawn here at this point, with the one pencil mark in there, the way the area from here on up, all the way up to here and the whole building appeared at the time Oswald was shot, from this spot [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. That's the way it appeared to me.
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell us anything about that area there [indicating]?
Mr.Newman. No. I do remember one thing, now, that was—some half hour before that, where another automobile was parked, if you are interested.
Mr.Griffin. Yes; I am.
Mr.Newman. It was parked, I would say, approximately here. I will mark this "second auto"; is that all right [indicating]?
Mr.Griffin. Just mark it "car one half hour before shooting."
Mr.Newman. All right [indicating].
Mr.Griffin. Now, was that car there at the time that Oswald was shot?
Mr.Newman. No; it wasn't.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did you see that car moved?
Mr.Newman. I don't recall it being moved. It might possibly have been the car that left here. I do know there was a car over here. I wasn't paying that much attention as to what they were doing. This might possibly have been this car; I don't know.
Mr.Griffin. You are not sure where the car that went up the ramp came from, but you did see a car go up the ramp?
Mr.Newman. Uh-huh.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see this car that moved through the line of newsman?
Mr.Newman. Not that I recall. I didn't pay any attention to it.
Mr.Griffin. All right. You have indicated that this car you saw move out, moved out 5 or 10 minutes before the shooting. Now, I know it's awful difficult, we have been here talking, and I frankly haven't any idea how long we have talked. Maybe it is easier to pinpoint the movement of that car in terms of when you heard that pop bottle?
Mr.Newman. All I know, it was sometime between the bottle and the shooting. I would say I can't pinpoint it even within 10 minutes, but I do know it was a short time.
Mr.Griffin. Okay. I will mark this, "Exhibit, Dallas, Texas, W. J. Newman," no; I take that back. I will mark it, but I think it best that we go through this whole thing chronologically. W. J. Newman, 3-25-64, Exhibit 5038. Now, what did you do after the shot was fired?