Mr.Hubert. There was never any trouble between you, was there?
Mr.Crafard. No, there was never any trouble between us. I say he was an easy-going person.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see Joyce McDonald around there, the girl you previously identified?
Mr.Crafard. Joy was working on the stage.
Mr.Hubert. What was she doing?
Mr.Crafard. She was a stripper.
Mr.Hubert. What was the relationship between her and Jack, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. That of boss and employee.
Mr.Hubert. You never observed anything else?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. She was with him a lot, though, personally?
Mr.Crafard. She would talk with him around the club that I could see. She would talk with Jack.
Mr.Hubert. Didn’t she go out to dinner with him?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge, no.
Mr.Hubert. Some time?
Mr.Crafard. She might have. I heard Jack make the remark at one time that he had been involved with every one of the girls that worked for him at one time.
Mr.Hubert. You heard him say that?
Mr.Crafard. He made the remark to me because of one of the waitresses worked for him was a real sweet-looking girl and she had a real wonderful personality.
Mr.Hubert. Who was that?
Mr.Crafard. Marge, that is the only name I know her by, I don’t know her last name.
Mr.Hubert. She was a stripper?
Mr.Crafard. She was a waitress.
Mr.Hubert. So what about Marge?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. What about Marge?
Mr.Crafard. I said something, going out with her or something and he made the statement that he had had a relationship with everyone of the girls who worked for him.
Mr.Hubert. When you say relationship or when he said it, you did understand him to refer to sexual relationship?
Mr.Crafard. Sexual relationship.
Mr.Hubert. There can be no doubt about that?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What did you infer from that remark of his relative to the remark you had made about your interest in Marge?
Mr.Crafard. Well, it would—my remark had been on the sexual basis.
Mr.Hubert. Well, did you regard that as sort of a consent on his part for you to go ahead?
Mr.Crafard. No. He didn’t want me to go, to have anything to do with any of the girls that worked for him.
Mr.Hubert. So that in effect he was telling you that he was the one who was to have the sexual relationships with the girls and not anyone else?
Mr.Crafard. That is about the effect of it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say it as clearly as that?
Mr.Crafard. No; he didn’t say it in so many words, but just an implied statement.
Mr.Hubert. That is the meaning you got out of that colloquy, is that right?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Can you tell us as best you can remember what the conversation was?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know. I said something about I would like to get ahold of that or something, and Jack said, he said, he had already gotten into it or something like that, and something said about his girls, and I said so far as I am concerned—at that time it was a little later after I went to work for him—I said, “As far as I am concerned you haven’t got a stripper I am interested in,” and he said, “I have had a relationship with every one of them.”
Mr.Griffin. Did you think Jack was puffing on that or did you believe him?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know. As far as the strippers went I can very well believe that but the waitresses it was pretty hard to believe because little Marge, she ended up marrying a guy, and she was pretty stiff on him, and in fact, so much that I have tried everything I could to get her even to go out with me and she wouldn’t do it. And the other girls didn’t seem too much to me like the type that would do so.
Mr.Hubert. You did have a girl you went out with you used to meet at the Eatwell?
Mr.Crafard. One of the girls who worked for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. What was her name?
Mr.Crafard. She went to work for him later, I can’t even remember her name now. The only one of the bunch I can remember, there were three girls there roomed together, the only one I can remember is Norma, and I first got acquainted with her was over the telephone and we had quite a conversation, and we became rather friendly over the telephone and when we met we was fairly friendly.
Mr.Hubert. Did she work for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. No; Jack tried to get her to work as a stripper which he would do with every female, every nice-looking girl, that he met. She would have nothing to do with it.
Mr.Hubert. So you had this conversation with her on the telephone? Did you get to meet her?
Mr.Crafard. I met her at the club; yes. I met her in person and then I got to know her fairly well. We was together several times.
Mr.Hubert. You mean on private dates?
Mr.Crafard. Well, it would be her and these other two girls. I was with the other girl mostly, and we would go over together and three of us sit together while we eat, and I would walk the girls home, something like that. They would come to the club and the club would close and I would walk this other girl home.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there were two girls who worked for the club?
Mr.Crafard. No; only one worked for the club.
Mr.Hubert. Which one was that, it was not Norma?
Mr.Crafard.Norma——
Mr.Hubert. What was her name?
Mr.Crafard. I can’t remember that girl’s name. I can’t remember the girl’s name. She was a woman of about 29 years old, she had a real nice personality and was a wonderful person to talk to, all it was, just nice person to talk to and relax and just have an enjoyable time away from the club.
Mr.Hubert. That was the one who was the waitress?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; she was a cocktail waitress at the club. I knew her and her one girl friend were from back east somewhere and I met Norma back at the club.
Mr.Hubert. Had Norma ever worked for the club?
Mr.Crafard. No. Jack was trying to get her to work for the club, was trying to get her to work as a stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Is Norma the girl you dated or saw quite a bit of?
Mr.Crafard. I saw her on two or three occasions before this other girl went to work for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. And Norma is not a native of Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. She is a native of the Dallas area. Her home is about 20 miles north of Dallas, Carrollton, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever go out there?
Mr.Crafard. No; I never went out there.
Mr.Hubert. How did you know it was out there? How did you find out?
Mr.Crafard. She give me her address, address and phone number.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have that in the book you maintained for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. That was the reason for getting the phone and address. She called and inquired for a job, and I got her address and phone number which I do with all girls who come for a job.
Mr.Griffin. How do you know Jack tried to get her to be a stripper?
Mr.Crafard. He had her at the club on several occasions talking her into being a stripper. He got her a job with Ralph Paul and he give her clothes and he gave her money and I went over with her to one store where to buy clothes.
Mr.Griffin. Jack bought her the clothes?
Mr.Crafard. He give me the money to buy the clothes.
Mr.Hubert. How much was the amount?
Mr.Crafard. $10 bill, I believe, at that time. Two or three times he bought clothes for the girl.
Mr.Griffin. Ten dollar bill?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. She couldn’t buy much with a $10 bill.
Mr.Crafard. She needed certain kinds of clothes, slacks and a blouse to work in when she went to work for Ralph Paul.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what work she had been doing before she came to work for Paul?
Mr.Crafard. No; all I know she had been on several occasions in the club with Jack. They were pretty thick for a while, and then something happened between them to where she wouldn’t have anything to do with Jack.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t know what it was that happened?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I have no definite knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have some idea?
Mr.Crafard. I have an opinion; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us an idea?
Mr.Crafard. He was making a big play for her, and my opinion is he got out of hand and she put a stop to it.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anything else said by someone else that led you to believe it?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly she referred to it. She inferred it happened.
Mr.Griffin. What would be getting out of hand in that situation, would it be simply Jack wanting to go to bed with her or would it be some unusual kind of sexual relations?
Mr.Crafard. No; I would say wanting to go to bed with her as far as my knowledge. From what I knew of Norma she was a pretty decent girl. She was a little wild but she was a fairly decent girl.
Mr.Griffin. How old a girl would you say she was?
Mr.Crafard. I believe Norma was 18. She was a very friendly person, easy to like.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have a girl who worked at the Eatwell Restaurant that you dated?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. But you did go to the Eatwell Restaurant on Main Street, I think it was?
Mr.Crafard. It was on Commerce.
Mr.Hubert. Commerce.
Mr.Crafard. I went there most of the time for my meals. It was, meals were cheap, nice place to go to, it was close, and I sat around there and joked with the girls and the one guy who worked in there I got acquainted with him a little bit.
Mr.Hubert. How many girls in the club went there?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe the girls in the club went there to eat often.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know a man by the name of Huey Reeves?
Mr.Crafard. The name isn’t familiar to me.
Mr.Hubert. Would it help you if I suggested that he worked at the Nichol’s Garage next door?
Mr.Crafard. That would be the colored boy, I believe.
Mr.Hubert. No; this was a white man.
Mr.Crafard. On a couple of occasions I sat in there and talked to him a couple of nights. We would sit in there and talk, maybe have a beer or two.
Mr.Hubert. Beer or two where? At the Eatwell?
Mr.Crafard. No; the garage. In the office.
Mr.Hubert. While you were there, who do you think were Ruby’s best friends other than his business acquaintances?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, man, the man I seen him with mostly was Senator, that I know of him being was Senator, and Ralph Paul.
Mr.Hubert. What about girl friends?
Mr.Crafard. He had one girl, I believe her name was Linda or something, she was a blond, she was a real nice looking girl that he went with quite a few times.
Mr.Hubert. Was she a stripper?
Mr.Crafard. No; she didn’t work for him.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t know her first name?
Mr.Crafard. I am not positive of her name. I don’t recall her name. Names is something to me that doesn’t mean much. I meet so many people.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember the two fellows who ran the Eatwell Restaurant?
Mr.Crafard. Not too well.
Mr.Griffin. Were there a couple of older men?
Mr.Crafard. One older man that worked behind the counter in the evenings.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack also eat at the Eatwell?
Mr.Crafard. He didn’t eat there when I was there with him, after I went to work for him. I understood the guy knew Jack real well, in fact he got in the habit of calling me Jack Ruby, Jr., or Little Ruby, in a kind of teasing manner. He was a very friendly person.
Mr.Griffin. Was that the older man?
Mr.Crafard. He was an older man; I believe the oldest man that I saw there.
Mr.Griffin. You don’t recall his name, first name, do you?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t recall his first name.
Mr.Griffin. Was one of the fellows in there called Jimmy, that you recall?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I recall. There is one of those messes of pictures I would like to get hold of. There is one side of them I would just as soon get ahold of and tear up.
(Brief recess.)
Mr.Hubert. You previously mentioned that there was a girl that Jack went out with socially.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did I understand you correctly that you said she did not work at the club?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. How often did he go out with her, to your knowledge?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know how often. It was quite often.
Mr.Hubert. How would it come to your attention that he was going out with her?
Mr.Crafard. Well, usually he would bring her in to the club with him before they would go, and after his club closed he would take her out to dinner.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go out to dinner with them?
Mr.Crafard. On one occasion, I was at the Vegas, we went over to the Vegas Club, and then the three of us went afterwards and had dinner.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know other than that one occasion when he went out with her that he took her to dinner?
Mr.Crafard. He would say that they was going to be taking her out to dinner.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see her at his apartment?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever indicate in any way that she did go to his apartment?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; not to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. I am going to show you what I am marking five photographs on which I am writing as follows: “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-A, Deposition of C. L. Crafard.” And I am signing my name below there. On the next picture I am also marking, “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-B, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and I am placing my name below that. The third picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-C, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and signing my name below that. On the fourth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-D, Deposition of C. L. Crafard,” and marking my name down on that; and on the fifth picture I am marking “Washington, D.C., April 8, 1964, Exhibit 5200-E, Deposition of C. L. Crafard” and signing my name.
(The pictures referred to were marked Exhibits Nos. 5200-A through E for identification.)
Mr.Hubert. Now, I ask you to look at the pictures which have been marked for identification as follows: Exhibits 5200-A, 5200-B, 5200-C, 5200-D, and 5200-E, and I ask you if in any one or all of those pictures you can see the girlwe have just been talking about, to wit, the girl that Jack took out to dinner and otherwise met socially?
Mr.Crafard. Her picture is in every one.
Mr.Hubert. Her picture is in every one?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you identify the one that you are talking about by referring to her dress?
Mr.Crafard. In Exhibit A it would be the middle girl wearing a red and white striped dress.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember if it was red and white?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t remember the color, but it seems to me it would be a stripe, something that people would wear.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you remember ever seeing that girl in a red and white dress similar to that dress?
Mr.Crafard. I believe she was in the club one time with a red and white checkered dress on.
Mr.Hubert. Not stripes like that?
Mr.Crafard. No. It was asofter——
Mr.Hubert. So your remark that it was red and white was inadvertent, or do you really have any recollection?
Mr.Crafard. It would be an inadvertent remark.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Go on to the next picture and call off the identification mark when you speak of it.
Mr.Crafard. Exhibit B, it would be the girl in the middle in the striped dress.
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. In Exhibit C it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder in the striped dress. Exhibit D it would be the girl behind Ruby looking over his shoulder with the striped dress. Exhibit E would be the girl in the middle with the striped dress.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recognize Ruby in all of these pictures, too?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I do.
Mr.Hubert. Who is the other girl?
Mr.Crafard. The other girl was one of the strippers in his club.
Mr.Hubert. What was her name?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it is Tammi True.
Mr.Hubert. That girl you have identified in all those pictures as having the striped dress, that is the girl you are talking about whom Ruby used to take out socially?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And you don’t know her name?
Mr.Crafard. Could I say that other girl is Kathy Kay, I am definite of that after looking at her picture closer.
Mr.Hubert. The blond girl is Kathy Kay?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. So you want to change your opinion expressed a moment ago that it was Tammi True, is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to the taking of this segment of the deposition dealing with the identification of these photos, I think you had looked at at least one of these photos and could not recognize the girl that you have now recognized as being the companion of Ruby.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. As being such. Then later you have come to the conclusion that it is the girl. Can you tell us why you have now come to the conclusion that it is the same girl?
Mr.Crafard. After looking at the whole group of pictures and the different angles of her head where you can see her features better, I came to the conclusion that is the girl.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, when you first expressed doubt as to whether it was, you were looking at one picture only?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And after having looked at all of those pictures, that is to say five of them as identified, you now are positive that that is the girl?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I understand you to say you had at least one occasion on which you actually had dinner with Jack and this girl is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Would it be fair to say you were in her company therefore and could see her at close range for a period of at least an hour on that occasion?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t know who she is?
Mr.Crafard. I cannot recall her name, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I wish you would give some thought to what her name is before you leave so perhaps wecan——
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to write her name down any place for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. I believe her name was wrote down, I believe her name was wrote down in the notebook.
Mr.Griffin. In the little notebook you were keeping for him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Now, what other friends did you note that Ruby had? You mentioned George Senator, and you have mentioned this girl who was in the striped dress in the Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E. Who else do you know?
Mr.Crafard. Ralph Paul.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have told us something about him.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Who else?
Mr.Crafard. There was a couple of the comedians from some of the other clubs that came up to the club quite often.
Mr.Hubert. Who were they?
Mr.Crafard. I wouldn’t know their names.
Mr.Hubert. Were there any others than those you have already mentioned?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can name; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. How long were you at the club from the time you first went there until the time you left?
Mr.Crafard. Approximately 6 weeks to a month or 2 months.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever see any members of the Dallas police force there?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us something about that.
Mr.Crafard. Well, the uniformed patrolman would come up every once in awhile in the evening and have coffee on the club.
Mr.Hubert. When you say on the club, you mean without paying for it?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Crafard. I on several occasions—I on several occasions served the coffee for them.
Mr.Hubert. Normally you would collect for that?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I mean normally you would collect from another patron.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. But you didn’t collect from the police?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mr.Crafard. Jack told me to go ahead and they could have coffee whenever they wanted.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you did not ask any money for the coffee because you had been instructed not to by Jack?
Mr.Crafard. The girls had told me that they was allowed to do so.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember which girl?
Mr.Crafard. The waitresses.
Mr.Hubert. The waitresses?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Jack never did mention the subject to you?
Mr.Crafard. The only thing he ever mentioned was that the policemen went off duty, would come in there when they were off duty, got their drinks at a cut price.
Mr.Hubert. What was the cut price?
Mr.Crafard. The normal price was 60 cents, and they got them for 40 cents.
Mr.Hubert. That you say is when they were off duty?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did he give you any instructions as to what the price was to be when they came in on duty?
Mr.Crafard. There was no charge for the coffee, and none would drink anything other than coffee, to my knowledge, when they were on duty or maybe a Coke or—a glass of Coke or a glass of 7-Up.
Mr.Hubert. How did they identify themselves when they were off duty so that they got the cut rate?
Mr.Crafard. Well, most of them when they come in there, when they come to the door they got in the door free so they showed a card at the door, their identification at the door. And then it usually would be at the bar, the girls knew most of them that did come in there when they were off duty. Evidently I took it that Jack had introduced them as officers, and we had occasion one night to serve one of the gentlemen, we was talking, and one of the girls when I took over the bar from Andy, he had to leave early, and he told me this gentleman was a police officer. He said he only charged him 40 cents. So I had occasion to talk with them.
Mr.Hubert. Did you get to know any by sight?
Mr.Crafard. No; not that I could—just when he walked in the door and say he was a police officer.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know any by name?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see any of those policemen at the Ruby trial?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall it, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How many different policemen would you say came in to Ruby’s place during the period you were there?
Mr.Crafard. When they were off duty, to my knowledge, there was only about 4 or 5 of them would come in there, off duty, and it was usually the same ones that were on duty that would come in to have coffee, patrolmen. The others were usually plainclothesmen, detectives.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know what bureau any of them were attached to?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether there were any of them attached to the juvenile bureau?
Mr.Crafard. No; not definitely.
Mr.Griffin. You have some thought that they were?
Mr.Crafard. You mentioned the juvenile bureau, it seems to me there was something mentioned about one of them being from the juvenile bureau or something.
Mr.Griffin. Is this something you read in the paper, or something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr.Crafard. No, something that was mentioned at the club.
Mr.Hubert. Did Ruby follow a pretty close routine of life insofar as his activities were concerned?
Mr.Crafard. For him, yes. His routine was for myself, or for any ordinary businessmen that I have known, any businessmen that I have known, would have been a real rough, hurry-scurry routine.
Mr.Hubert. Well, let’s take it timewise. For instance, you say he usually called you in the morning. Was that pretty routine?
Mr.Crafard. No; that varied.
Mr.Hubert. And I think you said that he came in usually sometime before noon.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Was that pretty regular?
Mr.Crafard. Most of the time he would be in before noon, between 10:30 and 12 o’clock.
Mr.Hubert. Then what would he do with the rest of the day?
Mr.Crafard. Well, he would be around the club for maybe anywhere from a half hour to 2 hours, then he would leave the club and I might not see him again until midnight.
Mr.Hubert. And then he stayed until the club closed?
Air. Crafard. When he came back to the club after the club opened he generally stayed until the club closed. On three or four occasions he stayed until the club closed and then he went over to the Vegas Club.
Mr.Hubert. Normally what would he do?
Mr.Crafard. He would go over to the Vegas Club and pick up the receipts for the day.
Mr.Hubert. And then what?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know, go home maybe stop for a bite to eat.
Mr.Griffin. What would he do with the receipts?
Mr.Crafard. He would carry them home with him and the next day bring them back to the Carousel.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a safe?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; he bought a safe while I was with him.
Mr.Griffin. When was that?
Mr.Crafard. It was about 2 weeks prior to the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr.Griffin. How did he happen to come to buy that safe?
Mr.Crafard. Well, he was always carrying quite a bit of cash and he was always worried about having somebody rob him or something, and I guess he wanted, he finally made up his mind to buy a safe and he went down to buy a safe.
Mr.Griffin. Were you with him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; I was with him when he purchased the safe.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where he went?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company.
Mr.Griffin. Whereabouts was it located?
Mr.Crafard. Let’s see, it was a block and a half right straight behind the Carousel Club, but I can’t recall the name of the street.
Mr.Griffin. It would have been on Field?
Mr.Crafard. No, Commerce—Field is next to Commerce, I believe.
Mr.Griffin. Yes.
Mr.Crafard. It was the next block back.
Mr.Griffin. Was ita——
Mr.Crafard. It was a furniture, office furniture supply house.
Mr.Griffin. I see. Now, how big a safe was it that he bought?
Mr.Crafard. It was a wall safe, a floor safe.
Mr.Griffin. About how high would you say that it stood off the floor?
Mr.Crafard. About 18 inches tall. The common type that is poured in the cement in the floor.
Mr.Griffin. Was this poured in the cement?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Could somebody, if somebody had broken into the building, could they have carried this safe away?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir. The safe was in his office and the office was always locked and I was there all the time.
Mr.Griffin. But when you weren’t there, if somebody had gotten into the building, and had broken into the office, why they could have carried this out?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir; they could have carried this out.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have the combination of the safe?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; Mr. Ruby and Andy was the only ones who had the combination.
Mr.Griffin. After he bought this safe did he use it to keep his money in?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge he only used it for the night receipts from the Carousel Club and Andy when he checked out if Jack wasn’t there, the safe hada compartment in the bottom they claimed was a burglarproof compartment in the bottom, had an envelope slot in it and he, would drop an envelope with the money in it.
Mr.Griffin. What would be done with the money at the end of the night? What would he do with the money?
Mr.Crafard. The next day Jack would take the money out and count it up.
Mr.Griffin. What would he do with it?
Mr.Crafard. He would put it in his pocket and go to the bank.
Mr.Griffin. Did he bank some place?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he bank?
Mr.Crafard. I believe, it was the First National, but I am not positive of that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you actually go with him to the bank whenhe——
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; not when he was banking the deposits.
Mr.Griffin. At the end of, on a typical week night, about how much money would he have left, would he have at the end of the night?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, a typical night would maybe be anywhere from a $100 to $500 or $600.
Mr.Griffin. Of course, he had more business on the weekends than he had during the week, didn’t he?
Mr.Crafard. Usually; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Just taking the nights Monday through Thursday, how much would he typically have on one of those nights?
Mr.Crafard. Between $100 and $300, I would say.
Mr.Hubert. That is gross, isn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. On a weekend night, on a Friday, Saturday or Sunday night how much would he take in?
Mr.Crafard. Anywhere from $100 to maybe $1,000. Depending on the type of what was doing there.
Mr.Griffin. Were you there any nights that he took in $1,000?
Mr.Crafard. The most I have ever known him to take in was one weekend, Friday and Saturday night, I believe it was $1,400 for the 2 nights.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to know that?
Mr.Crafard. I would usually be around when they counted the money up, and that weekend, I believe Sunday we was talking and Andy said something about that is the most money they took in any weekend for the last year or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Did he deal with any particular distributor of beer?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. What was the companythat——
Mr.Crafard. He dealt with the different companies, one being the Pearl Beer, each different brand of beer had different distributors.
Mr.Griffin. Had its own distributors?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How about liquor, did he buy hard liquor?
Mr.Crafard. No, there was no hard liquor sold in the club.
Mr.Griffin. So his only purchases were beer?
Mr.Crafard. Beer, coke and champagne.
Mr.Griffin. Who did he buy that from?
Mr.Crafard. Most of that was bought to my knowledge from the liquor store on the corner. I believe it was Segalis.
Mr.Griffin. How much champagne would he stock any one time?
Mr.Crafard. When he bought champagne he would usually buy a case of 12 bottles and it would usually average about two cases a week.
Mr.Griffin. Now, did they serve food?
Mr.Crafard. The only food we served was pizzas.
Mr.Griffin. Was pizzas?
Mr.Crafard. Pizzas.
Mr.Griffin. Were those made at the Carousel or were they sent out fromthose——
Mr.Crafard. We got those from Palumbo’s Pizza House. All you had to do was stick them in a warmer and warm them up.
Mr.Griffin. So his only expenses—tell me if you can think of any other expenses besides the one I recite here. He had the expenses of his entertainers, he had expenses for you and Andy Armstrong, he had rent and heat and light, and he had beer and pizza. Did he have any other expenses that you can think of?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I would say would be Carousel business expenses, no. He had a lot of sinking money into things all the time.
Mr.Griffin. What sort of things were those?
Mr.Crafard. Well, he was putting quite a bit of money into this twist board exerciser that he was promoting.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have any other promotions besides the twist board while you were with him?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I recall. He would buy records and he had to buy flashbulbs and film for the camera. He took Polaroid pictures every night, three of them each night.
Mr.Griffin. Three Polaroid pictures each night?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; we had one girl who was, I believe it was Tammi True, would get on the stage and she would get a guy up there with her on the stage and take a picture of them and give the picture of the man, that was the only photograph taken and that would go right to the man.
Mr.Griffin. Well, what other business, you say he was always sinking money into things.
Mr.Crafard. Well, he had the Vegas Club and from what I understand he was taking money from the Vegas Club to keep the Carousel Club from what I understood which I never could figure out.
Mr.Griffin. Why couldn’t you figure that out?
Mr.Crafard. Well, we always made enough to clear our bills, the Carousel made enough to clear the bills.
Mr.Griffin. By the bills you include the salaries of the entertainers?
Mr.Crafard. Most of that, yes. He was paying pretty good salaries. These girls got anywhere from $300 to $400, maybe $400, $500 a week for their entertaining.
Mr.Griffin. They all didn’t get that much.
Mr.Crafard. The entertainers, got anywhere from $300 to $500, $600 average, different.
Mr.Griffin. Was that just the featured stripper or was that each stripper?
Mr.Crafard. Jada was there, I believe, she was drawing $700 a month and the other girls I think was drawing between $300 and $500, somewhere between $300 and $500.
Mr.Griffin. A month?
Mr.Crafard. A month.
Mr.Griffin. A month. How about “Little” Lynn when she came to work there, was she getting paid the same as the rest of them?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so, I am not sure. I don’t know what her wages were, I am not sure, positive about it.
Mr.Griffin. Other than the twist boards and the Carousel and the Vegas Club what other things was Jack putting money into?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge that is all he had. He never seemed to have any. He always claimed he was going broke all the time.
Mr.Griffin. Was he actually selling these twist boards?
Mr.Crafard. He had never had made any sales while I was with him.
Mr.Hubert. Before you get into this, let me finish up this financial operation. I don’t think you have mentioned what the waitresses got.
Mr.Crafard. The waitresses worked on tips.
Mr.Hubert. Purely? There was no expense in connection with that?
Mr.Crafard. To my knowledge, no.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know if Armstrong got any salary?
Mr.Crafard. He got a salary.
Mr.Hubert. How much was it?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure. I think he was drawing about $300 a month, I am not sure.
Mr.Hubert. Then there was a man Howard, the maintenance man.
Mr.Crafard. Howard just got paid, whenever he worked he would get paid, I think a dollar an hour. He didn’t work all the time. He might only get 4 or 5 hours a week.
Mr.Griffin. How much would you estimate in a typical week Ruby took in?
Mr.Crafard. In a typical week it would be anywhere from one to three thousand.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know where these twist boards were manufactured?
Mr.Crafard. They were manufactured in Houston—Fort Worth, I mean.
Mr.Griffin. What was the name of the company?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall the name of the company. I had it wrote down in my notebook but I don’t recall the name of it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember the name of a company called Plastolite Engineering?
Mr.Crafard. I remember something about it.
Mr.Griffin. But that wasn’t the name of the company that was manufacturing the twist boards?
Mr.Crafard. It might have been, I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. How was Jack trying to sell these twist boards?
Mr.Crafard. Like I say, he promoted them out at the fair—State Fair, and he had a couple of different stores promoting them, and hehad——
Mr.Griffin. You mean they would be on display some place?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. And there was some set up, where some of the strippers went out to one place and done the twist on these twist exercisers.
Mr.Griffin. But to your knowledge he never made a sale on one?
Mr.Crafard. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. How much would one cost, if you wanted to buy it?
Mr.Crafard. The way he was selling them I believe it was two something. They were selling them in Texas but it was Penney’s, I believe it was Penney’s store was selling them.
Mr.Griffin. In Texas, you mean in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. In Dallas. They were selling them for $3.95 apiece, I think it was and he was selling his for $2.95 apiece.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack have anybody else associated with him in these twist boards?
Mr.Crafard. He was trying to get his one brother to do something with them, and I believe it was in Chicago.
Mr.Griffin. That would have been Hyman?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Griffin. That would have been Hyman in Chicago?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was “Hy,” yes.
Mr.Griffin. How do you know he was trying to get “Hy” interested in it?
Mr.Crafard. He had me send some to him.
Mr.Hubert. I gather from what you have testified to that you have been around carnivals and you have met a lot of people, and also I think you said that you form an impression of an individual pretty quickly and have found in your own experience you have only been wrong once, I think.
Mr.Crafard. I have been wrong twice that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. I would like you to tell us what your impression was of Ruby, and if you can, give us some factual examples and reasons, you know.
Mr.Crafard. Well, first he was a kind of a likable person. He was kind of impressable. I mean he impressed me somewhat. I had one instant feeling, I can’t recollect, more or less the way he talked and his actions that the man might be somewhat queer.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “queer” you mean what?
Mr.Crafard. As the general usage of the term.
Mr.Hubert. You mean homosexual?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What caused you to feel that?
Mr.Crafard. The way he talked and his general action.
Mr.Hubert. Was he effeminate in his method of speaking?
Mr.Crafard. More or less.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have a lisp?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I recall.
Mr.Hubert. What other physical actions that you observed that you think support or supported your view that he might be homosexual?
Mr.Crafard. Well, mostly just the way he talked and mostly the way he walked.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have anyactivity——
Mr.Crafard. When I first met him.
Mr.Hubert. Did he have any activity with his hands or walk or dress?
Mr.Crafard. That is it, the way a person walks or moves or uses his hands, involve the appearance of this type of person which I have been in contact with quite a few of them in the type of things I have been doing.
Mr.Hubert. So the overall impression that you had from his speech and from his movement of hands and his walk gave you the impression that he would fit into the category of people who in your experience were homosexuals?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have occasion to change that view?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, at the same time I kind of liked him, and I never really went as far as changing that opinion I never really changed it although he had never made any overtures toward me.
Mr.Hubert. Did you see him make any overtures toward any man?
Mr.Crafard. Not to my knowledge, not that I ever saw.
Mr.Hubert. You heard about some, I suppose?
Mr.Crafard. No; I didn’t. I never heard about any cases where he had.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear people express the view that he was homosexual?
Mr.Crafard. Not people that I met after I went to work for him. But this friend of mine that met him the same night I did, him and I were pretty well agreed on the subject that he seemed to be quite that type.
Mr.Hubert. What was the name of that friend?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t even remember his name. He was a carnival worker, he worked at the carnival.
Mr.Hubert. It was not one of the owners?
Mr.Crafard. Just a worker.
Mr.Hubert. And he was not homosexual himself?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; he was a pretty straight kid.
Mr.Hubert. How do you square that off, that opinion of him, with the fact that he was going out with a girl that you have identified in that Exhibit 5200 A, B, C, D, and E?
Mr.Crafard. I have known several people of this type that were married and had families.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you didn’t think that was inconsistent with your former view, your earlier view?
Mr.Crafard. No; as far as being inconsistent with my knowledge of that type of person it isn’t.
Mr.Hubert. Is it fair to say that your original impression of Ruby that he might be homosexual still persists to this day?
Mr.Crafard. That is right. Although he was a likable person and I liked him, and I have got one opinion, I don’t care, I know for sure if a man is that way if he leaves me alone I can get along fine with him.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have any friends or acquaintances whom you also thought were homosexuals?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he did.
Mr.Griffin. Which would those people be?
Mr.Crafard. George Senator, for one. He was the only one of his friends that I met that I really felt that way about.
Mr.Griffin. Would you describe Senator so that we can understand why you felt he was a homosexual?
Mr.Crafard. More or less from the way he talked more than anything. It iskind of hard for me to explain it because I haven’t got the education to use the words.
Mr.Griffin. We don’t want it—we, the only reason we are taking it this way is because we don’t want to put words in your mouth.
Mr.Crafard. Well, mostly because of the way he talked, his actions.
Mr.Griffin. Well now, when you went into Jack’s apartment, did you see anything in that apartment which would lead you to think that he and George were having homosexual relationships?
Mr.Crafard. No; just general bachelor apartment more than anything.
Mr.Griffin. Did you notice that one of the beds had been slept in and the other hadn’t, for example?
Mr.Crafard. I only saw the bed in Jack’s room. The other bedroom the door was closed.
Mr.Griffin. Did Senator have feminine mannerisms?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly in his speech, at times. It wasn’t all the time but at times he would have the mannerisms in his speech, the way he uses his hands.
Mr.Griffin. Was he giggling or what sort of manners?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, a lot about the way he laughed. He would get to talking about different things and the way his voice would sound more than anything.
Mr.Griffin. How about the topics that you heard Jack and Senator talk about. Was there anything about the subjects of conversation that they had which would indicate that they were homosexual or had some sortof——
Mr.Crafard. No. The only thing I could say along that line was that they was always together, they were together an awful lot.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Were you able to tell from their relationship whether one of them was performing services for the other whether in the maintenance of the household, for example, one of them was assuming responsibilities or the other wasn’t or taking care of clothes or things like that?
Mr.Crafard. Well, most of the cooking Jack done 90 percent, most of the cooking that was done in the apartment to my knowledge was done by Jack.
Mr.Hubert. How do you know that?
Mr.Crafard. Well, on a couple of occasions Senator—Jack was billing Senator out because he had cooked something that he shouldn’t have cooked or something, that—and it was something he didn’t do very often was cook. I can’t remember the name, what, everything what was said or everything. But it was to the fact that he didn’t cook anything around the place and when he did cook it, the few times he did cook he would cook it wrong or something.
Mr.Hubert. And you heard that from having heard Jack remonstrate with him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Is it fair to state that except for the specific examples you have given here your impression of both these men, Ruby and Senator concerning their homosexual tendencies, is based upon your experience with other people of that same type.
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any other specifics to mention?
Mr.Crafard. That would be about the only thing I could think of.
Mr.Hubert. What would you say of Jack concerning his temper, and his reaction to situations?
Mr.Crafard. He had an erratic temper.
Mr.Hubert. What do you mean, give us examples, you know.
Mr.Crafard. You never knew something that you thought would blow him up might not bother him, something that you thought would not bother him a bit he would blow up about.
Mr.Hubert. Like what? I mean that must be based upon something that happened.
Mr.Crafard. Like Andy making a goof with regards to the girls were supposed to work. They took nights off.
Mr.Hubert. Well, tell us about that so we have it in the record.
Mr.Crafard. Well, the first time it happened Jack got pretty mad about it. The next time it happened, one of the girls was supposed to be there and didn’t show up, Jack never said a word.
Mr.Hubert. When you say he got mad about it, how did he manifest his anger?
Mr.Crafard. Raising his voice, shouting and calling Andy some “stupid.”
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack swear, use profanity?
Mr.Crafard. Very seldom. When he usually did it was usually “hell” or “damn.”
Mr.Hubert. Have you any other examples to give us that would throw light upon his temper?
Mr.Crafard. One day, I was using a vacuum cleaner and it wouldn’t work and something went wrong with it, something like that, the club has got to be clean, you would think the man would be kind of perturbed about it and he wasn’t the least bit bothered about it. I would be cleaning the club and he would come in while I was cleaning the club, and he would get pretty perturbed because I was working the vacuum cleaner while he was there and he would yell at me and make me quit cleaning until he had left.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever seen him in arguments with other people?
Mr.Crafard. A couple of times with, he got pretty perturbed at the M.C.s, the one M.C. because of some of the jokes he was telling, some of the stories.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us about that, please, start off with the name of the M.C., if you can.