Mr.Griffin. When was that?
Mr.Crafard. That was about 6 months—it would have been in the middle of the summer last year.
Mr.Griffin. I mean, did your wife keep in contact with this woman from time to time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. She left, the wife, the children with this woman for a while, and she was getting a child-support check for her oldest son, my stepson, and she turned the check over to the woman in Missouri.
Mr.Griffin. How did the woman come to know about your mother in Dallas, Oreg.?
Mr.Crafard. I guess my wife said something about it.
Mr.Griffin. Well, had the woman in Cuba, Mo., written your mother to tell your mother that your wife had left, or something, or what was the occasion for that?
Mr.Crafard. I believe she wrote trying to find out what kind of a person my wife was more than anything. I believe that was her main reason for writing my mother. From the information I got from her, when my wife would come back, my wife would be gone 2 to 3 weeks, she would come back at least once a month with the check, to sign the check and turn it over to the woman, and she said when my wife did come back she apparently did appear to have quite a bit of money, and always had new clothes and real good clothes, but she said she appeared—she did not appear to have a job of any kind, because of the fact she would come back maybe on a weekend or maybe it would be in the middle of the week.
Mr.Griffin. What is the name of this woman in Cuba, Mo.?
Mr.Crafard. I can’t even remember right now. I have got it wrote down in that little book, but I can’t even remember right now.
Mr.Griffin. When was it that the lady in Cuba last saw your wife?
Mr.Crafard. It was Christmas Day.
Mr.Hubert. Cuba, Mo.?
Mr.Griffin. She saw her Christmastime?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. My wife come back and got the children on Christmas Day.
Mr.Griffin. She also got a letter from her about that time?
Mr.Crafard. The letter was received after that, I understand.
Mr.Griffin. When the woman in Cuba, Mo., saw your wife at Christmastime, did your wife say where she was going?
Mr.Crafard. As far as the woman knew, she was going to Texas.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know a girl by the name of Gloria that was with Ruby on November 20?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t give you any particular dates, but I know a girl Gloria that he took out, that he went out with a couple of times.
Mr.Hubert. Is she the same girl as you have identified in this exhibit which has beenmarked——
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. That is Gloria McDonald?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. The last name is McDonald.
Mr.Crafard. I didn’t know what her last name was, I couldn’t say, but her first name was Gloria.
Mr.Griffin. Where did she live?
Mr.Crafard. It was either Oak Lawn, the Oak Lawn area, or the Oak Ridge area, I am not sure which.
Mr.Hubert. Did she live alone or with someone?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I knew, she was living alone.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask when you say something like that, do you mean you don’t know or you have some reason to believe she was living alone?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know, I will put it that way.
Mr.Hubert. You really don’t know?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Because the way you put it, you see, you infer she is living alone, and if you really have no knowledge about it then you don’t know.
Mr.Crafard. Right.
Mr.Hubert. She was the girl that you had breakfast with one morning at the Lucas B&B; isn’t that correct?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When, how long after you began to work for Jack Ruby, did you become aware that Gloria was somebody whom he saw from time to time?
Mr.Crafard. I believe Gloria come to the club in answer to an ad, I am not sure. But I believe that is where, how, I met her, when she come to the club in answer to one of the ads we put in the paper.
Mr.Hubert. Along those lines now, is it your impression that Ruby didn’t know this girl Gloria prior to the time she answered an ad?
Mr.Crafard. That is my impression, yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember when she came in?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. But your thought is that Ruby did not know her prior to the time that you went to work for Ruby?
Mr.Crafard. That is what I understood.
Mr.Hubert. When we say Gloria we are talking about this girl with the striped dress you have identified in Exhibits 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E; right?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. How many waitresses did Jack employ at any one time?
Mr.Crafard. Counting the cocktail girls, there were about six or seven girls.
Mr.Griffin. Now, of these six or seven girls did any of them—were any of them employed at the Carousel Club at the entire time you were there?
Mr.Crafard. Most of them.
Mr.Griffin. How many girls left his employ during the time you were there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was two or three left his employ, not counting Jada, the stripper.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember which girls left his employ?
Mr.Crafard. One I was with quite often there, we had meals together.
Mr.Griffin. What was her name, again?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember her name. I believe there was one other one there. I would like to change one thing. The name you mentioned, the name of that girl, I never did remember the name, the name Gloria. She worked as a cocktail girl for 2 or 3 nights, and she never made anything at all, couldn’t make enough money to buy cigarettes with, and she left.
Mr.Hubert. The girl in Exhibit 5200-A, -B, -C, -D, and -E was Gloria, wasn’t it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And she was there only 3 days?
Mr.Crafard. She worked for him for 2 or 3 nights, and then she left. She couldn’t even make enough money to buy cigarettes.
Mr.Hubert. But then she continued to see him on a social basis?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where was she working, do you know?
Mr.Crafard. How is that?
Mr.Hubert. After she left him where did she go to work?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether she went to work or you just don’t know anything about her?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Have you any indication that Jack was supporting her in any way?
Mr.Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr.Griffin. When Jack placed these ads for waitresses, was it that he needed help?
Mr.Crafard. He had to run a continuous ad for girls. I think mostly he was wanting to get girls to start them as strippers.
Mr.Griffin. And he would sort of start them out as waitresses first, is that it, if they showed anyprospects——
Mr.Crafard. He did with a couple of them, yes.
Mr.Griffin. How about the waitresses, did he have some requirements for the waitresses as to their looks?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know. They were all fairly nice-looking girls, but I wouldn’t say they were real beauties or anything.
Mr.Griffin. Did he provide them with uniforms?
Mr.Crafard. About a week or 2 weeks before President Kennedy was assassinated, he bought uniforms for the girls. But prior to that they hadn’t wore uniforms.
Mr.Griffin. They had no uniforms?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. But they did have a common style of dress?
Mr.Crafard. Most of them wore slacks and a blouse or a sweater.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to mark this “Washington, D.C., Exhibit 5201, April 8, 1964, Deposition, C. L. Crafard,” and I will sign my name to it.
(Photograph marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5201 for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. Now, Larry, I am going to show you what I have marked as Exhibit 5201. You will notice the picture of a girl there, a brunette, scantily clad. Is she wearing the uniform that you referred to that Jack bought?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize the girl in that photograph?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see anybody around the Carousel in an outfit like that?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir.
Mr.Griffin. Does that appear to be a picture of the inside of the Carousel Club?
Mr.Crafard. Not as I know it, no. We didn’t have all this back bar.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recognize anybody in that photograph, 5201?
Mr.Crafard. This man looks familiar,but——
Mr.Griffin. The man at the table looks familiar to you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Can you probe your memory some and try to tell us why he looks familiar?
Mr.Crafard. He looks like somebody I saw in the Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. Would he be one of the men from Los Angeles that you referred to?
Mr.Crafard. It could be. I wouldn’t swear to it.
Mr.Griffin. How often do you think that you saw that man around the Carousel Club?
Mr.Crafard. It wasn’t but a couple of times. It couldn’t have been.
Mr.Griffin. Is that a picture of any club that you recognize in Dallas?
Mr.Crafard. None that I have ever been in. I was never in any of the other clubs except to the Carousel and the Vegas.
Mr.Griffin. Would you be sure that that is not a picture of any part of the Vegas?
Mr.Crafard. No, it is not a picture of the Vegas. They didn’t have a back bar there.
Mr.Griffin. Do you see the man who appears to be a bartender in that picture?
Mr.Crafard. I should know him because it looks like—he looks like an older fellow who was around the club quite often with Jack, but I can’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Let the record show that the witness was referring to the picture identified as Exhibit 5201.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember a fellow by the name of Ryan, who was friendly with Jack Ruby, and who also went by the name of Roy William Pike?
Mr.Crafard. William Ryan is familiar, but this other man, it wouldn’t be Mickey?
Mr.Griffin. Mickey Ryan. Is that Mickey Ryan that worked the bar?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t say. The picture is really—if I would see the man and the picture together I might be ableto——
Mr.Hubert. When you say the man in the picture, which man are you talking about?
Mr.Crafard. The man who appears to be a bartender.
Mr.Griffin. Let me see if I understand. Do you make some association in your mind between the picture of the bartender here and the fellow you remember as Mickey Ryan?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. There is quite a similarity.
Mr.Griffin. But you arenot——
Mr.Crafard. I am not positive.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know of a place in Dallas called the Gun Club?
Mr.Crafard. I have heard mention of a place by that name, but I have never been there.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever meet any of Jack’s friends from Chicago?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you a bit more about the man seated at the table in the foreground of the picture identified as Exhibit 5201. Did I understand you to say he bore a resemblance to someone you had seen before?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that someone was who?
Mr.Crafard. Idon’t——
Mr.Hubert. It was suggested to you that it might have been one of the people you identified as, earlier in this deposition as, having come from California and as having come in to see Ruby on several occasions, and to sit down and chat for a little while and then he would go off with them. Do you remember that testimony?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Now, is that man seated at the table as described by me a moment ago possibly one of those men?
Mr.Crafard. It could possibly be, yes.
Mr.Hubert. What is it about him that refreshes your memory so that you are able to say that he could possibly be that man from California?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly his face; his facial features mostly.
Mr.Griffin. Larry, did Jack Ruby know your full name?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How did he know you?
Mr.Crafard. As Larry.
Mr.Griffin. Did he know your last name at all?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so. I don’t recall telling him. I did—I told him my last name when that letter came in from my cousin in Michigan, and he gave it to me.
Mr.Griffin. How did Eva Grant know where to look for you?
Mr.Crafard. I am not sure except for the fact, like I say, I had left an envelope with my cousin’s address at the Carousel.
Mr.Hubert. Andy knew your last name, didn’t he?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. How did Andy come to learn your last name?
Mr.Crafard. I believe on this same occasion with the letter.
Mr.Griffin. I asked you about the show “How Hollywood Makes Movies.” What kind of a show was that?
Mr.Crafard. That was, it showed a few of the different tricks and stunts that was used in moviemaking process, such as shooting a mirror without breakingthe mirror, or shooting a glass off the bar counter, and how they broke a chair over a man’s head and how a chair or table broke when a man was knocked into it, such as that.
Mr.Griffin. How many actors did they have in this show?
Mr.Crafard. There was, I believe, six Hollywood personnel all together.
Mr.Griffin. How long did the show last in terms of each performance?
Mr.Crafard. The show was approximately about 45 minutes.
Mr.Griffin. How much did they charge for admission?
Mr.Crafard. I believe they was charging 75 cents, if I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Who conceived of the show?
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know, from what I knew of it, it was Craven and Miles.
Mr.Griffin. What do you know about Craven, what was his background?
Mr.Crafard. All I know he come from Hollywood, was supposed to be some producer from Hollywood.
Mr.Griffin. And how about the Miles fellow?
Mr.Crafard. Deke Miles, as far as I know, was a director from Hollywood, a Hollywood director.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to decide to go to Dallas, Tex., in the fall of 1963?
Mr.Crafard. Because I knew there was one of the biggest fairs in the country held in Dallas, Tex., and I had some friends working over at Dallas, Tex., and I figured this would be as good a place to get a job with a carnival as anywhere.
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to go to Dallas the first time you moved there the year before?
Mr.Crafard. I was going there to have a reconciliation with my wife.
Mr.Griffin. And you stayed about 3 months; is that it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; about that.
Mr.Griffin. Did you live with her at that time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you live?
Mr.Crafard. Letot Trailer Park on Lombardy Lane.
Mr.Griffin. Did one of you own a house trailer?
Mr.Crafard. We rented a house trailer.
Mr.Griffin. Do you drive an automobile?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. When Ruby bought the lumber from the dance-band show that closed, what was he going to use that lumber for?
Mr.Crafard. Remodeling on the inside of his Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. Did he use it for that purpose?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. What did he do with the lumber?
Mr.Crafard. He stored it.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he store it?
Mr.Crafard. Downstairs below the Carousel Club.
Mr.Griffin. Did he make any effort to remodel?
Mr.Crafard. He was doing some remodelling while I was there, building a cloakroom. That was about all that was being done, building a cloakroom, while I was there.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack Ruby ever away from his Carousel all day?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember a day that I didn’t see him at least once during the day.
Mr.Griffin. You do?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t, I say. I don’t remember a day.
Mr.Griffin. But ordinarily Jack would come about 11:30 in themorning——
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Stay just a shortwhile——
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. And would be gone all day until sometime in the late evening?
Mr.Crafard. Usually; sometimes he would come back in the middle of the afternoon for a little while, or maybe he wouldn’t come back until after the club opened at 7:30.
Mr.Griffin. What did Jack actually have to do to manage the Carousel?
Mr.Crafard. That I couldn’t really say.
Mr.Griffin. Did it appear he had very much to do?
Mr.Crafard. As far as the management of the club, to my knowledge, it shouldn’t have took him more than 3 hours a day at the most, that is, including all the bookwork he would have to do.
Mr.Griffin. Did he do the bookwork?
Mr.Crafard. He kept a set of books, but he had a bookkeeper to keep his books, an accountant.
Mr.Griffin. I mean—you mean he personally kept the books or somebody else made the entries?
Mr.Crafard. Andrew made most of the entries.
Mr.Griffin. Now, during the 6 weeks or 2 months that you were there, how many different strippers did he have?
Mr.Crafard. It was mostly the same girls. He fired one and hired another one.
Mr.Griffin. Who was the one that he fired?
Mr.Crafard. It was Jada.
Mr.Griffin. And who did he hire in her place?
Mr.Crafard. Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. How long after he fired Jada did Little Lynn come on?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was 2 or 3 days between them.
Mr.Griffin. Could there have been more than that?
Mr.Crafard. It might have been a week, I don’t believe so—I don’t believe it was much more than that.
Mr.Griffin. Were you present during the incident that resulted in the firing of Jada?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there were several different incidents that built up to that event.
Mr.Griffin. What were they, as you recall?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know most of them, but the one instance I believe, Jack shut the lights out on her as she went too far with her disrobing.
Mr.Griffin. And then did they have a fight of some sort afterwards?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Were you present?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I was in the club, but I don’t know—I didn’t know what went on even.
Mr.Griffin. How long had you known Little Lynn before she was hired as a stripper?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I met her one day and she was hired the next evening, something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Had Jack known her before?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. How about her husband, Bruce Carlin, did you meet him?
Mr.Crafard. I met him at the same time I met Little Lynn.
Mr.Griffin. How often did Bruce use to come to the club?
Mr.Crafard. When Little Lynn went to work for the club at first he was there almost every night—he was there every night.
Mr.Griffin. How did he get along with Jack?
Mr.Crafard. I never seen any difficulty between them.
Mr.Griffin. How would you describe Bruce Carlin?
Mr.Crafard. He seemed like a pretty likable young fellow to me.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk with him?
Mr.Crafard. Slightly; not very much.
Mr.Griffin. What time would he generally come and what time would he leave?
Mr.Crafard. He would usually, when he come in, he would be there when Little Lynn was on the stage, and he would leave, and she would go back in time for her to come back on the stage, and he would come back in again.
Mr.Griffin. Did he and Little Lynn go out some place together?
Mr.Crafard. I believe they went out a couple of times between her acts. I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Did Little Lynn remain around the club while Bruce was out?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; most of the time.
Mr.Griffin. How long would you say Little Lynn worked for Jack?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, man; I believe it was 2 or 3 weeks. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. So he had the same group of strippers except that Little Lynn replaced Jada?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. He had three different M.C.’s?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And Billy DeMar was one of them?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. And the M.C. is the same person as the comedian?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. How about the band? Did he have the same band all the way through?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, yes.
Mr.Griffin. So you would say that while you were there there wasn’t any other turnover in personnel?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. That you knew of.
I think you mentioned on two nights you ran the Vegas Club all by yourself.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When were those two nights?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember the dates. It was during the week, week nights. The one night I was the only one at the club, I didn’t even have a band, all we had was the jukebox.
Mr.Griffin. How about the bartender?
Mr.Crafard. I was doing the bartending.
Mr.Griffin. And taking the tickets also?
Mr.Crafard. We didn’t have any cover charge that night, just a jukebox and beer. The next night we had the band, and I had a waitress.
Mr.Griffin. How long was that before the assassination of the President?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was the week before, but I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. What was the reason that Jack didn’t have anybody to run the Vegas Club?
Mr.Crafard. The club wasn’t making any money. During the week it didn’t make hardly any money, and that was the slowest night of the week for the club, and his sister was sick one night, so he had me go over and run the Vegas Club the first night, and the next night his sister was sick again, and I only had the band and a waitress with me at night.
Mr.Griffin. Was his sister in the hospital or anything while you were employed there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe she was. She was in the hospital—I think she was in the hospital, but when, I’m not sure. I’m not sure whether she was or not.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see her after the two nights you worked in the Vegas Club?
Mr.Crafard. I think I saw her over at the Vegas Club two or three nights later, but I’m not sure.
Mr.Griffin. Did you meet Pauline Hall?
Mr.Crafard. Who?
Mr.Griffin. Did you meet a woman named Pauline Hall?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How many times did you see her, would you say?
Mr.Crafard. All together I believe I saw her about four different times.
Mr.Griffin. Would you describe her physically?
Mr.Crafard. Fairly nice looking woman, I would say maybe in her mid-thirties—a little older, but a nice build, and what I saw of her, and when I talked to her, she had a fairly nice personality.
Mr.Griffin. Was there any woman at the Vegas Club who was employed there who was noticeably heavy, who was fat?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall of seeing one.
Mr.Griffin. How about the Carousel, did he have anybody employed, any woman employed at the Carousel Club who was noticeably fat?
Mr.Crafard. There was a colored woman by the name of Alice who more or less took care of the coffee and the pizzas, was real heavy.
Mr.Griffin. When you saw—do you know if Eva Grant worked at the Vegas any nights after the two nights that you worked there?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know anything about the man who runs the Colony Club, Abe Weinstein?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I—I don’t. I believe I met the man on one occasion.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you meet him?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I met him at the Carousel Club. He was the one who got—Jack hired Little Lynn through him. I believe it was that.
Mr.Griffin. Were Jack and Abe Weinstein friendly?
Mr.Crafard. No; I wouldn’t say so.
Mr.Griffin. How did Jack happen to hire Little Lynn through Abe?
Mr.Crafard. He needed a girl, and Abe had one that he didn’t need, and he knew Jack needed girls through the union setup, so he told Jack about her, brought her over and introduced her.
Mr.Griffin. Had Little Lynn been a stripper at Abe Weinstein’s place?
Mr.Crafard. I understand she was an amateur.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever talk with Jack about the amateur nights that Weinstein had?
Mr.Crafard. There was some—I wouldn’t say actually I discussed it with him. I should say he told me about it.
Mr.Griffin. What did Jack tell you?
Mr.Crafard. Well, the fact that he—the unions had sent out an order for the clubs to stop the so-called amateur night, and Ruby had done so, but the other clubs in town hadn’t, and they had failed to comply with the union order, and nothing had happened about it.
Mr.Griffin. When did Jack talk with you about that?
Mr.Crafard. When I showed up and went to work for him.
Mr.Griffin. And, to your knowledge, did Jack do—what was Jack doing about it?
Mr.Crafard. He was doing his best to get the union to force them to stop. He had stopped.
Mr.Griffin. What was he doing that you know of?
Mr.Crafard. He was writing to some of the bigger, some of the higher officials in the union, and friends of his that he knew that had position or something.
Mr.Griffin. Did you you ever make any telephone calls for him or write any letters or mail any letters in connection with that?
Mr.Crafard. I might have mailed some letters, I don’t recall it.
Mr.Griffin. How about telephone calls?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall it.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever drive Jack’s car?
Mr.Crafard. No. At the time I was working for Ruby all I had, the only license I had, was a restricted motorcycle operator’s license.
Mr.Griffin. Other than that at that time that you—you had driven with Jack, hadn’t you, in his car, a number of times?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And did Jack keep a lot of things in his car?
Mr.Crafard. His trunk was always full of stuff.
Mr.Griffin. It was? How about the inside of the car?
Mr.Crafard. Not so much in the back.
Mr.Griffin. What sort of things did he keep in the trunk?
Mr.Crafard. Pictures of girls, these twist boards he was pushing, and cards for advertisements, and cards with thepicture——
Mr.Griffin. How did you happen to see these things? These things in the trunk of the car.
Mr.Crafard. I straightened the trunk of his car up several times at his request.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep any keys in the car?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he had some in a box in the back.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of keys were they?
Mr.Crafard. From what I could tell more or less house keys, keys for doors.
Mr.Griffin. Were they loose or in a key chain?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was a bunch of them on a keyring.
Mr.Griffin. You say he kept them in a box of some sort?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What kind of a box did he keep them in?
Mr.Crafard. Just a cardboard box he had in the back of his car.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep anything else in that cardboard box?
Mr.Crafard. There was vitamin pills he was taking, and some of his diet stuff he kept in that box. He always had a bunch of soap in the car, bar soap.
Mr.Griffin. Did he travel out of town or something that would cause him to need that stuff?
Mr.Crafard. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. Why would he have kept those things in the trunk of the car?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep clothes in the car?
Mr.Crafard. He sometimes would have clothes in the car. Maybe he would put clothes in the car that he would take to the cleaner and they would be in there 2 or 3 days before he would take them in the cleaners.
Mr.Griffin. Where would they be in the trunk?
Mr.Crafard. Right in the trunk of the car.
Mr.Griffin. How about in the glove compartment of the car, did you ever have any occasion to go into the glove compartment?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep the trunk of his car locked?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the times that you went into the trunk of the car, how did you get into the trunk?
Mr.Crafard. With the key.
Mr.Griffin. Where would you get the key?
Mr.Crafard. He would give it to me.
Mr.Griffin. Did he keep this key loose in his pocket or did he have it on a key chain?
Mr.Crafard. He had it on a key chain.
Mr.Griffin. What else did he keep on that key chain?
Mr.Crafard. The keys for the car.
Mr.Griffin. Anything else?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he had his apartment house key and the key to both clubs.
Mr.Griffin. Was this actually a chain or a ring or what?
Mr.Crafard. A keyring.
Mr.Griffin. To your knowledge did he keep—did he have any separate set of car keys that he kept on a separate ring or on a holder of any kind?
Mr.Crafard. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Griffin. You say at one time you went down to his car and got a gun out of the car?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where did he keep the gun?
Mr.Crafard. He kept that locked in the trunk.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see any political literature of any sort in Jack’s car or in the apartment or in the Carousel Club or any place else?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall seeing.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see any radio scripts of any sort that Jack had?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have access to his office?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. How did he maintain his desk?
Mr.Crafard. It was pretty much of a mess most of the time.
Mr.Griffin. Was this a desk that had drawers in it?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And how about the drawers, did he keep things in the drawers?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, they was always full of stuff.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever have occasion to go through any of these drawers?
Mr.Crafard. I went through, completely through the desk on different occasions.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall seeing any kinds of political literature of any sort in there, and by political I don’t mean just partisan, but, oh, anything that might have to do with any kind of issue or political philosophy?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall it, of seeing any.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever recall seeing anything from an organization called Lifeline or that was a piece of literature that was put out by an organization called Lifeline, or denominated Lifeline?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there was a Lifeline book or magazine around once or twice. I never paid no attention to it; saw the book and that was all.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack talk about any public events?
Mr.Crafard. No. About all we would discuss would be the club.
Mr.Griffin. What sort of person was Ruby as far as a person who talked about what he was doing?
Mr.Crafard. He didn’t talk too much about things, things he was doing, other than the club itself. He talked about what had to be done about the club, but other than that he didn’t talk too much.
Mr.Griffin. He didn’t tell you what he was doing outside the club?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. So as I understand it, atypical for Ruby, he appeared at the club before noon, wouldn’t come back until late evening, he would spend 8 or 10 or what would presumably be waking hours away from the club each day.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did he ever talk about what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear anything, or do you have any idea of what he was doing during that period of time?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever attempt to talk to him about what he was doing?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. About that time? Did you ever hear anybody else try to talk to him about it?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know Jack, or see Jack, or talk with him often enough so that you were able to form an opinion as to what Jack thought of his own sexual abilities?
Mr.Crafard. No; I would have no opinion on that.
Mr.Griffin. Did he ever talk to you about other than the incidents that you mentioned earlier about his sexual conquests of his girl friends or something like that?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Griffin, how about his efforts to keep in shape physically, keep himself physically fit, and what not?
Mr.Crafard. I never saw any talk toward that effect. The only thing I knew for sure was he was dieting and trying to lose weight.
Mr.Griffin. This is because he told you?
Mr.Crafard. I saw him take these diet pills.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have some sort of a schedule that he would take this on?
Mr.Crafard. He took it every morning.
Mr.Griffin. About what time did he take them?
Mr.Crafard. Well, the way I understood, about the first thing he got up he would take this.
Mr.Griffin. Would he take it at the club or at home?
Mr.Crafard. At home; or sometimes at the club.
Mr.Griffin. Did you see him take it?
Mr.Crafard. He was trying to take it—I guess he figured about noontime he would take his medicine, this diet stuff, instead of eating.
Mr.Griffin. What did this come in?
Mr.Crafard. It was in powder form, you use it in tea or coffee. It prevents you from getting hungry.
Mr.Griffin. On the 22d when Jack came back after the President had been shot, the first time, did he make any telephone calls to any of his employees, to anybody, to people, to tell them not to come in?
Mr.Crafard. No; he had Andrew make calls.
Mr.Griffin. Did Andy make all the calls?
Mr.Crafard. So far as I know; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack—how about the newspapers, was anything done about notifying the newspapers that the club was not going to be open?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know as it was Jack who done it—there was—he done so outside the club.
Mr.Griffin. Did anybody come to the club during the afternoon of the 22d?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember of anybody coming to the club.
Mr.Griffin. Did any of the strippers show up that day?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember, I don’t recall any coming down.
Mr.Griffin. How long did Andy stay at the club?
Mr.Crafard. He was there until about 15 or 20 minutes after Jack left.
Mr.Griffin. The first time or the second?
Mr.Crafard. The first time.
Mr.Griffin. Which means that he would have left sometime before 4 o’clock?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When you and Senator and Jack went out to take the picture of the Earl Warren sign, do you recall anything being in the car at that time?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have any newspapers in the car?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t remember any.
Mr.Griffin. Where did you sit, in the front or back?
Mr.Crafard. I sat in the back seat.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack know how to use the Polaroid camera?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. It doesn’t take anything to run that Polaroid camera.
Mr.Crafard. No; but I don’t believe he hadever——
Mr.Griffin. Was it his camera?
Mr.Crafard. It was his camera. I don’t believe he had ever took any patience to learn how to reload it. They can be quite complicated to reload if you don’t know how to do it.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have to reload after every shot?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How much film did you have on there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was four pictures.
Mr.Griffin. That you took?
Mr.Crafard. There was three pictures on it that I took. We thought there was four, and there was only three of them.
Mr.Griffin. And you didn’t have to reload then, did you?
Mr.Crafard. No; I didn’t reload.
Mr.Griffin. What did you all talk about when you drove out there?
Mr.Crafard. They were talking about this Earl Warren sign and a hate ad that Ruby had saw in the paper.
Mr.Griffin. What was Jack saying about it?
Mr.Crafard. It was something about the similarity of the numbers and the addresses of the two.
Mr.Griffin. What was Senator saying about it?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t recall what Senator said.
Mr.Griffin. Did you get some idea of what the purpose was, why Jack was concerned about this?
Mr.Crafard. No; I was completely in the dark about it. Something, I believe, was said about the sign of “Impeach Earl Warren,” business being done by maybe the Birch Society or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. What did Jack have to say about the Birch Society?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was either Jack or Senator said something about this sign, the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign being—having something to do with the “Birchites,” or something like that.
Mr.Griffin. What were they going to do with this?
Mr.Crafard. I have no idea.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack say anything to you about what he had been doing the rest of the day?
Mr.Crafard. No; that was early in the morning when we took the pictures.
Mr.Griffin. And you hadn’t seen him for probably 12 hours?
Mr.Crafard. Something like that.
Mr.Griffin. Before that, and in the 12 hours that he had been gone, did he indicate or he or Senator indicate at all what had gone on?
Mr.Crafard. Something had been said about Jack not having gotten any sleep.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack indicate that he was doing this for anybody else, taking these pictures?
Mr.Crafard. No; he didn’t give any indication about that fact.
Mr.Griffin. Did Senator indicate what he had been doing that day?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. What was your attitude after you went out there on this picture-taking enterprise?
Mr.Crafard. Well, it was just something he wanted done. It meant no more to me than taking a picture at the club, actually, except I was kind of curious as to what the devil it was all about.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ask him?
Mr.Crafard. Something, they were talking about the “Impeach Earl Warren” sign. I made some suggestion about a box number, “Write for free information”; I made some suggestion about maybe writing for free information and finding out what I had come back, as I can recall.
Mr.Griffin. What happened?
Mr.Crafard. Nothing more was said about that.
Mr.Griffin. Was the box number written down or anything?
Mr.Crafard. The box number was on the photograph, that is all.
Mr.Griffin. Was there a name on this, in addition to the box number, was there a name to anybody that you should write to?
Mr.Crafard. I think it was just “Impeach Earl Warren Committee” or something like that. I am not sure.
Mr.Griffin. You don’t remember?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Go ahead. You were going to say something else.
Mr.Crafard. I was going to say either that or it was an organization in Massachusetts somewhere or something that you had to write to. I know the sign had been printed in, I believe, Massachusetts.
Mr.Griffin. What conversation did you have about this sign after you drove back?
Mr.Crafard. After going back in, we had coffee, and they said something about going down to the post office and checking this box number to see if they could find out who had the box or something, and they let me off at the Carousel. That was the last I saw of them.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned in connection with that telephone call that you had had, the 3-hour telephone conversation with thatgirl——
Mr.Crafard. Yes, sir.
Mr.Griffin. You thought there were some people in the background.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And you indicated you thought they might have been teenagers or something.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was there something particular about the voices and so forth that made you think it was teenagers?
Mr.Crafard. Well, some of the giggles I heard were kind of silly, like some silly giggle that some of the young teenage girls would do or make.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anybody telling this girl to get off the phone?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. You also said something about the conversation was almost like you had known this girl.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it was. It was just the way we talked—I mean.
Mr.Griffin. Did she sound like she knew things about you?
Mr.Crafard. No; but it was like people that has known each other for a little while trying to get to know each other when talking, talking about their hobbies and things they like and things they didn’t like, and such as that. It wasn’t like two people who had just started talking over the telephone.
Mr.Griffin. Was the voice one that you had ever recognized at all?
Mr.Crafard. No; the voice meant nothing to me.
Mr.Griffin. I think you mentioned that Little Lynn called on Friday night sometime.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. When was it that you think she called?
Mr.Crafard. I believe—I said I believe it was 9 or 9:30, I believed it was.
Mr.Griffin. What was it that she said when she called?
Mr.Crafard. She wanted to get ahold of Jack, it was urgent or something to that effect.
Mr.Griffin. And did she indicate she knew the club had been closed?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; she knew the club had been closed.
Mr.Griffin. And at that time did she know how long it was going to be closed?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I know of.
Mr.Griffin. You mean that you just don’t know or that you have the impression she didn’t know?
Mr.Crafard. I had the impression she didn’t know any more about it than I knew.
Mr.Griffin. What was your impression?
Mr.Crafard. That we would be closed Friday and Saturday.
Mr.Griffin. Friday and Saturday. So her—when was this decision to close Friday and Saturday, when was that made?
Mr.Crafard. Friday afternoon.
Mr.Griffin. And that was made before Andy began to make the telephone calls?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. So that anybody who had been called by Andy would have known that the club was going to be closed Friday and Saturday night?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember closing the club on Thursday night?
Mr.Crafard. On Thursday night?
Mr.Griffin. Thursday night is the night before the assassination.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; we closed at the regular time, the usual time, 2:30 or 3 o’clock.
Mr.Griffin. What was done with the money that night?
Mr.Crafard. I believe Jack had it with him.
Mr.Griffin. Well, Friday morning was there any money in the safe when you woke up, Friday morning?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. There was no money taken into the Carousel Club after Thursday night, was there?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you indicated before that Jack had the practice of depositing his money in the bank.
Mr.Crafard. As far as I know; yes. That is what I figure he was doing anyway, was depositing.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have any information he was doing that?
Mr.Crafard. No; I did not know definite, but that was what I figured he was doing, keep it with him, and then every 2 or 3 days he said he would go to the bank or something.
Mr.Griffin. This North American Drilling Co., do you know anything about the people who manage that?
Mr.Crafard. No; all I know about it is originally it was the old McClure Drilling Co. and the old Union Drilling Co. combined together to form the North American Drilling Co.
Mr.Griffin. Were those Michigan companies or were theypeople——
Mr.Crafard. Michigan companies.
Mr.Griffin. We will continue tomorrow morning at 9 o’clock.