TESTIMONY OF FORREST V. SORRELS
The testimony of Forrest V. Sorrels was taken at 1 p.m., on May 6, 1964, at 200 Maryland Avenue NE., Washington, D.C., by Messrs. Burt W. Griffin, Leon D. Hubert, Jr., and Samuel A. Stern, assistant counsel of the President’s Commission. Fred B. Smith, Deputy General Counsel, U.S. Treasury Department was present.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, my name is Leon Hubert. I will be taking your deposition this afternoon, and so will Mr. Samuel Stern. We are both members of the advisory staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, that is to say Mr. Rankin.
Under the provisions of Executive Order 11130, dated November 29, 1963, the Joint Resolution of Congress, No. 137, and rules of procedure adopted by the Commission in conformance with that Executive order and that joint resolution, both Mr. Stern and I have been authorized to take a sworn deposition from you, Mr. Sorrels. Of course you will take an oath a little later on. Is it understood between us that this statement of my authority and of Mr. Stern’s authority is sufficient to carry for both depositions—in other words, it will be really a continuation of the deposition by Mr. Stern on another area. Is that understood?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Is it understood also that the oath you are going to take will be applicable to the testimony elicited from you by me, as well as that elicited from you by Mr. Stern?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I state to you now that the general nature of the Commission’s inquiry is to ascertain, evaluate and report upon the facts relating to the assassination of President Kennedy and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald. In particular as to you, Mr. Sorrels, the nature of the inquiry today is to determine what facts you know about the death of Oswald and other pertinent facts which you may know about the general inquiry.
Mr. Sorrels, you have appeared today by virtue of a verbal request made by us at the direction of the General Counsel. Under the rules adopted by the Commission,all witnesses are entitled to a 3-day written notice prior to the taking of their deposition. But the rules also provide that a witness may waive this notice. I ask you now if you are willing to waive the 3-day written notice provided for by the rules of the Commission.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. All right. Then I will ask you to stand and be sworn. Do you solemnly swear that the testimony you are about to give in this matter will be the truth, the whole truth, and nothing but the truth, so help you God?
Mr.Sorrels. I do.
Mr.Hubert. Will you state your full name.
Mr.Sorrels. Forrest V. Sorrels.
Mr.Hubert. How old are you, Mr. Sorrels?
Mr.Sorrels. Sixty-three.
Mr.Hubert. Where do you reside now?
Mr.Sorrels. 3319 Hanover, Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Hubert. What is your occupation?
Mr.Sorrels. Special agent in charge of the Dallas district of the United States Secret Service.
Mr.Hubert. Now, before I go any further, I should like the record to show that Mr. Fred B.Smith——
Mr.Smith. Deputy General Counsel, United States Treasury Department.
Mr.Hubert. Is present—in what capacity?
Mr.Smith. I guess observer on behalf of the Secretary of Treasury.
Mr.Hubert. And Mr. Burt Griffin, also a member of the staff of the General Counsel of the President’s Commission, is also present.
Now, Mr. Sorrels, I would like for you to state to us the general background, your history, sort of a biographical sketch, if you will, starting off with your education and on to date.
Mr.Sorrels. I was born in Red River County, Tex., on a farm, September 16, 1901; later moved to a little town nearby called Bogata, Tex. I lived there until 1916, when my family moved to El Paso, Tex. I resided there until 1935.
I went to El Paso High School and after graduation attended Draughon’s Business College, taking typing and shorthand and bookkeeping. I then went to work for a small wholesale grocery, worked there for only a short time, and then went to work for a brick company, worked there a very short time, and then obtained employment as a clerk in the office of Bureau of Narcotics, Treasury Department, in El Paso, Texas.
Mr.Hubert. What year was that, sir?
Mr.Sorrels. That was in 1922. I worked there for about a year and went back to the brick company. I was only there a short time when I learned of a clerical position in the office of the United States Secret Service at El Paso. I later was employed in that position on July 6, 1923. That was a two-man office, and I began very shortly after employment there assisting and helping in investigative work.
In 1926, the special agent in charge was transferred from there, and prior to that time I had been appointed as what was known at that time as an operative, which is comparable to our special agent of today. He transferred from there to Dallas about July of 1926, and I was left as acting agent in charge of that office. In October that “acting” was removed, and I continued there in the capacity of agent in charge until 1935, when I was transferred to Dallas as special agent in charge there. In 1936 I was transferred to New Orleans as acting supervising agent of a newly created setup whereby the States of Texas, Louisiana, and Mississippi were in what was known at that time as the Tenth District.
In 1938, the headquarters office was moved from New Orleans to Houston. In 1941 it was moved from Houston to Dallas. Subsequent to that time, the organization of the 15 supervising agents was abandoned, and each office reported direct into the headquarters office in Washington, excepting a very few that were known as resident agency officers.
I have continued in that capacity as special agent in charge of the Dallas district, and am so employed at the present time.
Mr.Hubert. So that you have been special agent in charge actually of the Dallas district since 1938.
Mr.Sorrels. Actually—it was in my territory since 1935, but the office was moved back there in 1941, and I have been there ever since.
Mr.Hubert. And you have lived there.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. What does the Dallas territory now, under your jurisdiction, and control, consist of?
Mr.Sorrels. Roughly it consists of the northern half of Texas, exclusive of the territory west of the Pecos River. We have in the Dallas district the entire northern judicial district of Texas, the Waco division of the western district of Texas, the Tyler, Jefferson, Texarkana, Parris, and Sherman divisions of the eastern district of Texas.
Mr.Hubert. By divisions, you mean divisions in the United States court system?
Mr.Sorrels. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. How many men do you have?
Mr.Sorrels. At the present time we have six special agents besides myself.
Mr.Hubert. They all work out of Dallas?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir. One special agent actually headquarters, so to speak, in Fort Worth. He remains in that section most of the time.
Mr.Hubert. Would you tell us something about your family.
Mr.Sorrels. I am married.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been married?
Mr.Sorrels. I have a daughter 16 years of age and a younger daughter 7 years of age. I have 2 children by a former marriage, a son who is a captain in the United States Army and a daughter who is married to an employee of the IBM Company in New York City.
Mr.Hubert. How long have you been married to your present wife?
Mr.Sorrels. Since 1946.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Sorrels, Mr. Stern is going to take a deposition with respect to security measures and other matters, I think, in regard to the President. I am going to depose you with reference to a number of matters concerning principally the security of Oswald after he was arrested and until his death, and your activities with reference to Ruby after he had shot Oswald.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, getting into the first matter, can you tell us what you observed yourself of the security measures which were in effect and actually operating with reference to Oswald after his arrest.
Mr.Sorrels. The first time that I saw Oswald was on the afternoon of November 22 as he was coming out of Capt. Will Fritz’ office in the Dallas Police Department on the third floor.
Mr.Hubert. About what time was that?
Mr.Sorrels. The exact time I cannot give you, because I had been working at a frantic pace. It was some time probably past the middle of the afternoon. I had previously been informed by my office that Captain Fritz had endeavored to locate me because he had a suspect in custody. And when I arrived there, Captain Fritz was in his office, apparently talking to the suspect, whom I determined to be Lee Harvey Oswald.
As he was being removed from the office, I told Captain Fritz that I would like to talk to this man when an opportunity was afforded, and he remarked “You can talk to him right now—just go right around the corner there by the side of the office,” which I did.
Oswald was brought around and was seated there. There were a number of other officers present, detectives, I think possibly some FBI agents, and maybe some of my agents had come in in the meantime.
I startedto——
Mr.Hubert. Before you go into that, would you tell us about the security measures that you observed with reference to protecting the person of Oswald from the time you first saw him, say up until the time you have reached now.
Mr.Sorrels. As far as I know, there was no one except authorized officersin that particular area at that time. I did not see anyone that I recognized to be other than an officer.
Mr.Hubert. No news people in the corridor of the third floor?
Mr.Sorrels. I am talking about inside the office now. In the corridor, that was an entirely different situation because there were cameras set up, tripods, still photographers, photographers with cameras in their hands, and newspapermen in large numbers in the hallways.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, for example, when Captain Fritz afforded you an opportunity to speak to Oswald and indicated that you could do so at a little office around the corner, did that mean that you had to pass Oswald out of Fritz’ office, and through this third floor corridor, where all the newsmen were gathered?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. That was still within Fritz’ office?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; in other words, there was an office there, and Captain Fritz had an office built within that office—just merely to take him out of the door and right around the corner of his inside office there.
Mr.Hubert. Then you did interview Oswald.
Mr.Sorrels. I talked to him, started asking him questions, and he was belligerent and arrogant in his attitude and he said to me, “I don’t know who you fellows are, a bunch of cops.”
Mr.Hubert. How long did you speak to him?
Mr.Sorrels. Not very long.
Mr.Hubert. In point of time.
Mr.Sorrels. Not over—I don’t think over 10 minutes at the most.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what happened to him after that?
Mr.Sorrels. As far as I know, he was taken back to the jail.
Mr.Hubert. Now, taking him back to the jail would involve passing him out of Fritz’ office, through the corridor, and to the jail elevator, is that correct?
Mr.Sorrels. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us what security precautions you observed with reference to his person after he was out of Fritz’ office?
Mr.Sorrels. They of course had him handcuffed when they removed him, and several detectives accompanied him as they left out, in front—someone went ahead. And as I recall it there was at least one on the side, and then some brought up the rear.
Mr.Hubert. You did not go up to the jail?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. Did you observe any system of identification of the people who were on the third floor?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, when I first went down there I had no particular difficulty getting in, because most of the officers there know me, from my years of being in that city. But subsequent to that time I would have to identify myself many times. This was to uniformed police officers that were on duty. And I would have to show my commission book in order to get into Captain Fritz’ office, or else get into the executive offices there, where the chief of police and the deputy chief offices were located.
Mr.Hubert. Did you observe any officers posted at the entrances to the area, to the third floor area?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where were they?
Mr.Sorrels. By the elevator, and then there were uniformed officers at Captain Fritz’ door.
Mr.Hubert. Did you observe them requiring identification by other persons? I mean you described how they required you to identify yourself. Did you notice whether they did so with other people, and if so, what did they do?
Mr.Sorrels. I cannot say that I did, because usually when I get through identifying myself, I either went to the executive suite, where the chief’s office was, or right direct to Captain Fritz’ office. But on a number of occasions, the officers that were on duty there, before I can get my commission book out, some of the newsmen or photographers there that knew me wouldsay, “He is Sorrels of the Secret Service.” I, upon being recognized and identifying myself, would be admitted. Some of the officers on duty there of course after the second or third time they would recognize me, and I would have no difficulty getting in. But I cannot say that I saw anyone else being required to identify themselves, because I did not hang around the places where the officers were.
Mr.Hubert. Would you say that the security conditions that you just described were in effect for the entire period of November 22 through November 24—that is, on the third floor?
Mr.Sorrels. Captain Fritz’ office definitely yes—going into his office. I do not recall having to identify myself to get onto the third floor on the 22d when I first got down there. But subsequent to that time, I do recall having to identify myself almost every time I went up there.
Mr.Hubert. What was the general condition of the third floor area from point of personnel, equipment, and so forth?
Mr.Sorrels. I guess you could term it more or less deplorable, because of the fact that they had so many cameras with tripods and cables and wires and photographers and reporters that you would have to step over tripods and wires and almost elbow your way to get in and out of the place. And every time you would come out of it—Captain Fritz’ office—they would turn on those bright lights, and you would have to shield your eyes almost to keep from being temporarily blinded.
Mr.Hubert. Do you mean—that last condition you described took place when anybody came out of Fritz’ office, or when they came out with Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. No—I would not say just anybody, but many times when I would start out, the minute they would see anyone coming out of the door, they would turn the lights on, I guess to be prepared in case Oswald or anyone else that they wished to photograph would come out.
Mr.Hubert. During the period that we are talking about, that is, say, from the arrest of Oswald the first time you saw him until the 24th, I take it that you observed Oswald being moved from Captain Fritz’ office to the jail elevator at least quite a number of times.
Mr.Sorrels. I can only recall two times, I believe. The first time is when he was taken out of Captain Fritz’ office on the afternoon of the 22d. Then there were two other occasions I knew of when he was brought back into Captain Fritz’ office and when he was taken out. I remember that many times. In other words, about three going out and two coming in I can definitely recall.
Mr.Hubert. Well, do you recall that while he was being so moved on any one of those occasions, that he was addressed by the press or questions asked him, or remarks made to him?
Mr.Sorrels. No, because the time that I saw him he was in Captain Fritz’ office or being removed from his office. I never saw him in the hallway that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. Well, I thought you had mentioned a little while ago that on the first occasion you did observe him—after you had interviewed him for about 10 minutes—you did observe him move out of Fritz’ office and go to the elevator.
Mr.Sorrels. I think your question, as I understand it, sir, was that he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office to the elevator. I did not see him taken down the hallway.
Mr.Hubert. I see; I did misunderstand you.
Mr.Sorrels. Sorry.
Mr.Hubert. So you do not know really whether or not any news media or any other people asked him questions and made remarks to him while he was going from Fritz’ office to the elevator.
Mr.Sorrels. Not of my personal knowledge; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Could those news people see into Fritz’ office from the hallway?
Mr.Sorrels. They could see into the outer office, but they could not very well see into his office unless they actually came inside the office within which his office is located. You have got one door that faces on the west side of the office, and then Captain Fritz’ there faces north. So that it would be a question of someone might see just a corner portion of his office from the hallway door,which is glass at the top, but they would not be able to see anyone sitting, for example, where Oswald would have been sitting at the time that I saw him in Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there was a glass door to what might be called the outer office of Captain Fritz’ office.
Mr.Sorrels. That’s right.
Mr.Hubert. But the inner office, while it had a glass door, it did not face on an area in which the press was located.
Mr.Sorrels. That’s right. It also had Venetian-type blinds on the doors, and the other part of his office was glass from the upper part.
Mr.Hubert. While you were up there at any time during the period we are talking about, did you ever observe anyone known to you to be a civilian who was not either a police officer or connected with the news media in some way?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I do not; well, I will take that back. You are talking about when Oswald was around?
Mr.Hubert. Well, yes. But also I want to broaden it to any time.
Mr.Sorrels. The reason I asked that question is that Jack Ruby’s sister was in his office with another lady after Ruby was in custody, and at that time they were in there with Mr. Jim Underwood from radio station KRLD who was trying to make arrangements for Ruby’s sister to get up in the jail to see him. But prior to that, I do not know, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, were you present at a meeting at which the news media were present and Oswald was brought into an assembly room, in which the news media were assembled?
Mr.Sorrels. I was present when Oswald was brought into what is called the lineup room, which is also the assembly room. They have the lineup section at one end of it. That was on the evening of November 22. At that time it was my request, because a witness who had been interviewed by me, and who had seen the person fire the third shot from the window of the Book Depository Building, I had gotten in touch with him through one of our agents, and he was brought down there for the specific purpose of being able to see Oswald, because when he was first interviewed by me he stated that he thought he could identify him.
Mr.Hubert. That was in fact, however, a true lineup for the purpose of identification.
Mr.Sorrels. I am sorry—I did not understand the question.
Mr.Hubert. I said that was a true lineup for the purpose of identification.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. I was speaking of another meeting where the assembly room usually used for the lineup was used to give the press an opportunity to see Oswald.
Mr.Sorrels. I was not present. That is the only time I saw Oswald in the lineup.
Mr.Hubert. Were you aware at any time on the 22d of the concern expressed by Mr. J. Edgar Hoover in regard to the security of Oswald, and allegedly transmitted to the Dallas people?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you become aware of that later?
Mr.Sorrels. I do not recall ever having heard anything to that effect.
Mr.Hubert. Even now you do not?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Jack Ruby at all?
Mr.Sorrels. Not before this incident took place; no, sir.
Mr.Hubert. You did not even know he existed?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir. As a matter of fact, when I first heard Oswald had been shot, I understood the name to be Jack Rubin, and in my first report to my headquarters office I gave them the name of Jack Rubin—R-u-b-i-n, an operator of a nightclub. That is the first information I got. I just misunderstood the pronunciation of the last word.
Mr.Hubert. I think I have already asked this question in a general way—that is to say, you have covered the area in a general way. But I think for the record I should make it more specific.
You have now come to know a man by the name of Jack Ruby, to the extent that you could recognize him, I suppose.
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us whether you saw him in or about the police department building at any time after the President was shot, and until Ruby shot Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. I have no recollection of having seen a man whom I know now to be Jack Ruby before I saw him in the Dallas City Jail on the fifth floor.
Mr.Hubert. Now, we can pass, I think, for my purposes—and mind you, Mr. Stern might cover some of these areas again, but this is the way this is being handled.
You did see Oswald, I think, on Sunday morning, November 24?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Could you tell us where and at what time?
Mr.Sorrels. That was in the office of Capt. Will Fritz of the homicide division of the Dallas Police Department. It was somewhere around 11 o’clock in the morning, and he was removed from Captain Fritz’ office at approximately I guess about 11:15.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose of your interviewing him that morning?
Mr.Sorrels. We, of course, were interested in any statement that Oswald might make relating to any phase of the assassination of the President. Particularly, I was interested in trying to obtain an admission from him that he had used the name of A. Hidell as an alias, because information had been developed that he had purchased the rifle which was found on the sixth floor of the Book Depository under the name of A. Hidell.
There was a change of address card which he had filed in New Orleans, as I recall it, on which it was shown that persons to receive mail at the address given, the name of A. Hidell appeared. And after Captain Fritz got through questioning him on the morning of November 24, he asked if any of the officers present in the room desired to ask him any questions. And I said, “Yes; I would like to ask him a question.”
In the meantime, Chief of Police Jesse Curry had come to Captain Fritz’ office, and inquired about the delay in moving him out. And Captain Fritz informed that he was still talking to him.
Mr.Hubert. Captain Fritzinformed——
Mr.Sorrels. Informed ChiefCurry——
Mr.Hubert. That he was or you were?
Mr.Sorrels. That he was. And a very short time after that is when I had an opportunity to ask Oswald some questions. I showed Oswald the change of addresscard——
Mr.Hubert. Let me ask you this: Was your interrogation of him cut off, as it were, by the transfer?
Mr.Sorrels. By the transfer?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Sorrels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Had you finished with him?
Mr.Sorrels. I hadfinished——
Mr.Hubert. As to that point?
Mr.Sorrels. As to that point; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. As a matter of fact, you would have had access to him, I think, at the county jail, anyhow, would you not?
Mr.Sorrels. I had certainly planned on having access to him, and I am sure I would have. As a matter of fact, I had in my mind to start talking to him that afternoon.
Mr.Hubert. What I wanted to clarify is whether or not your effort to interrogate him was interrupted. But I gather that it was not.
Mr.Sorrels. No, I would say not. Possibly, had he remained there, I might have attempted to ask him more questions. But he was not giving out much information.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, during the whole time that Oswald was in custodyof the Dallas Police Department, did you find that any obstacles or hindrances were put in your way of examining him?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; except had he been in our own custody, there would have been a chance to have questioned him without others being present, or so many others being present.
Mr.Hubert. At the time that you were in Fritz’ office, on November 24, did you hear any plans discussed for the transfer of Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not say that I heard anything about any plans. I do recall that Oswald requested to have some of his clothes brought down there, because his shirt that he had on when he was arrested had been taken from him, I think, for laboratory examination. And Captain Fritz sent and got some of his clothes, and he selected kind of a sweater-type——
Mr.Hubert. But you did not hear the officers of the Dallas police force discussing the method of transportation and the security measures that they had planned and put into operation?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; I did hear a part of it, I recall now. There was some suggestion about transporting him in an armored car. Captain Fritz objected to that because of—one reason that I recall was what effect it might have in his trial, that that might prejudice the prosecution by him being transported in an armored car, which is not of course ordinarily used in the transportation of prisoners in that area.
Another thing that I recall is that Captain Fritz thought that the armored car would be a bit cumbersome and it would not be able to maneuver as easily as a car. And it was his desire to take him in a police car with escorts.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear anyone suggest that the plan then proposed, and ultimately carried out in part, at least, should be changed so as to bypass the press, as it were?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not. At that time there was no way to bypass them, because they were out in the hall. As I had come to the building, I even noticed cameras down in the basement of the city hall there.
Mr.Smith. Could I interrupt just a second, sir. I may be completely wrong about this, but wasn’t there something about the time of transporting him?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. As I understand it, some of the reporters had inquired of Chief Jesse Curry as to whether or not he was going to transport him to the county jail on the night of November 23.
Now, this is hearsay, that the reporters wanted to be relieved so they could get some sleep if he was not going to be transported that night—they would go home and get some rest.
Chief Curry himself told me that he had said something to this effect, “Go on home and get your sleep, there won’t be anything doing before 10 o’clock tomorrow morning.”
As I recall, I think the newspapers then published the fact that he would be moved at 10 o’clock in the morning, or words to that effect.
Mr.Smith. I just wanted to get the full story, because I remembered him having mentioned something about this. I do not know whether it is important.
Mr.Hubert. Well, in that connection, had you heard that the FBI had received an anonymous phone call from someone advising that an effort, by a group of men, would be made to kill Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. I do not recall that I had heard any such report at that time. I did hear that there had been an anonymous call come into the police department that someone would try to kill him when they removed him, or words to that effect. But that, I believe, was subsequent to the time he was actually shot. I do not recall that morning of having heard anything about that. And I definitely did not hear anything about a group. I remembered something about it later on, but I never heard anything about it at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear of any plans made as to the actual route that would be followed in transporting Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. Not before Oswald was shot.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know why, from anything you knew then, or have learned since, the cameramen and so forth were all congregated in the basement area?
Mr.Sorrels. Would you read that question again?
Mr.Hubert. What I am trying to get at is this: You testified a moment ago that when you came in you saw all the press people with their cameras and so forth in the basement area.
Mr.Sorrels. Not all of them. I said I saw some down there.
Mr.Hubert. Which would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that—that would indicate that they either had guessed or had somehow become aware that that would be a point on the route to be taken at which they could get pictures. And I was wondering if you had heard anything prior to that time about the route, or had you heard that these people had been informed of the route?
Mr.Sorrels. No; nothing about the route. The basement is used by the police generally. They have a passageway which comes from Main Street down into the basement, and then the exit continues on out to Commerce Street, and the police cars that bring prisoners in use the basement. In other words, they drive the car right down to the basement, and the actual receiving office, the receiving office for the jail is on the basement floor.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall ever having spoken to either Curry or some other member of the police department about the possibility of moving Oswald in a way other than that which was planned?
Mr.Sorrels. When I heard that they were supposed to take him out at 10 o’clock—that was the announcement and so forth on the radio and in the papers—I remarked to Captain Fritz that if I were he, I would not remove Oswald from the city hall or city jail to the county jail at an announced time; that I would take him out at 3 or 4 o’clock in the morning when there was no one around.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know when you told that to Fritz?
Mr.Sorrels. That was on the Sunday morning, before he was removed.
Mr.Hubert. Did you tell that to any other person?
Mr.Sorrels. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was any other person present when you told that to Fritz?
Mr.Sorrels. No; not that I recall.
Mr.Hubert. What caused you to give that advice to Captain Fritz?
Mr.Sorrels. The importance of the prisoner, to my mind, was such that in order to remove the opportunity for some crackpot or anyone who might feel inclined to try to kill the prisoner, if the removal was made more or less unannounced or in secret, that those opportunities would have been at least lessened to a great degree.
Captain Fritz said that Chief Curry did not want to—let’s reverse that just a bit—that Chief Curry wanted to go along with the press and not try to put anything over on them; or words to that effect.
Mr.Hubert. Did you gather from what Fritz told you that the reason why your suggestion was not acceptable was that Fritz at least thought that captain—that Chief Curry did not want to break his word, as it were, to the press?
Mr.Sorrels. I didn’t consider it so much as breaking his word as I would that he did not want to tell them one thing, or in other words, move him out without the press being aware of the fact—let’s put it that way. That was my impression.
Mr.Hubert. What time was it, about, do you know, that you made that suggestion?
Mr.Sorrels. That was pretty close to 11:15 in the morning, just a short time before they got ready to move him.
Mr.Hubert. You do not know, do you, whether he conveyed your thought to Chief Curry?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I do not. I doubt that he did, because Chief Curry had left Fritz’ office at that time, as I recall it.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember about what time it was when the Oswald move began from Fritz’ office?
Mr.Sorrels. It was shortly after 11:15 in the morning, as I recall it. In otherwords——
Mr.Hubert. Did you go down with the party carrying him down?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; I did not. Inspector Kelley and I went to the office of Chief Batchelor, which is also on the third floor, and on the south side of thebuilding, on the Commerce Street side, and we were observing the people across the street from the city hall, as apparently they had been moved over there by officers on duty down below. And we just saw several people over there that were apparently waiting for an opportunity to see them take the prisoner out.
Mr.Hubert. When you arrived at Chief Batchelor’s office, at the point you have just described, to wit, the windows looking out on Commerce Street, do you know whether Oswald had been shot?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I don’t think so, because that was immediately—in other words, when they took Oswald out, I went right on down to the chief’s office, that is right on the same floor. And we were there for a few minutes before we heard that he had been shot.
Mr.Hubert. But the Oswald party left Fritz’ office before you and Mr. Kelley did?
Mr.Sorrels. I am rather positive that he was taken out before I left, yes; because I remember about bringing the clothes in there, and Oswald selecting, I think, a sweater or something like that. I actually have no independent recollection of seeing him going through the door or anything like that. He could have been there when we walked out. But it is my impression that he was taken out and shortly thereafter Mr. Kelley and I went to Chief Batchelor’s office.
Mr.Hubert. Did that involve walking a distance on the same floor of about how many feet?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, possibly a 100 feet, 110, something like that. Captain Fritz’ office is not at the entirely opposite end of the building, but Chief Batchelor’s office is. You go into the executive area there, and you cut over to the left-hand corner, and Chief Batchelor’s office is in the corner.
Mr.Hubert. How did you first learn that Ruby had shot Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. One of the police officers that was on duty in the executive area there told us that Oswald had been shot in the basement—in the stomach, as I recall it.
Mr.Hubert. You were still in Batchelor’s office at the time you were told that?
Mr.Sorrels. I think we were right outside the office, in the area there. I do not believe we were actually in his office at that particular time. I think we had stepped outside there. And that I do not think was over, oh, I would say a maximum of possibly 10 minutes, from the time we left Captain Fritz’ office to go to Chief Batchelor’s office.
Mr.Hubert. Prior to the time that this policeman advised you that Oswald had been shot, did you notice any commotion or anything to indicate something wrong going on on Commerce Street?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Well, you were standing at the window looking down, as I understand it, on the scene on Commerce Street, waiting actually to see the procession go out. But this officer told you this at the entrance to Batchelor’s office?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes. I was not at the window at that time.
Mr.Hubert. You had moved away?
Mr.Sorrels. We had walked away from the window, I think, just killing time, I guess. And we were actually in the—outside of Batchelor’s office, but in that area there.
Mr.Hubert. All right. What did you do?
Mr.Sorrels. I immediately rushed down to the basement.
Mr.Hubert. How did you go—by what route?
Mr.Sorrels. I grabbed an elevator, as I recall it.
Mr.Hubert. Public elevator or the jail elevator?
Mr.Sorrels. No; a public elevator—and got down to the basement floor, and I headed right into the jailer’s office. And at that time Oswald was laying on the floor and someone was giving him artificial respiration.
Mr.Hubert. By mechanical means?
Mr.Sorrels. No; by hand. I recall seeing his stomach was uncovered, his shirt was pulled up like that, and the man apparently was over him giving him artificial respiration by his hands.
I went to a telephone, which is in the jail office there, up against the wall, andcalled my headquarters office and told Deputy Chief Paterni that Oswald had been shot by a man named Jack Rubin—that is how I understood it at that time—who operated a nightclub, and that was all the information I had at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Now, Mr. Paterni was in Washington?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That was a long-distance call?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know what time the call was made, did you use a direct line?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I called it on the security phone, which we use in connection with matters pertaining to the protection of prisoners. In other words, the SignalCorps—
(Witness provided telephone number.)
Mr.Hubert. And you can use that on any telephone?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Is that a security matter?
Mr.Sorrels. I beg your pardon?
Mr.Hubert. Is that a security matter, that telephone number?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes—Signal Corps.
Mr.Hubert. I think the record should show that the witness stated the number that was called, but that we are not going to have it as a part of the record because it is a security matter.
You, Mr. Reporter, will delete the number from the transcript.
What I was trying to get at is have you ascertained at what time that call was made?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I have not.
Mr.Hubert. Would it be possible to do so?
Mr.Sorrels. I could not answer that question, because I do not know what records are kept.
Mr.Hubert. Does it go as a long-distance call?
Mr.Sorrels. A long-distance call collect; yes.
Mr.Hubert. Then the telephone company probably would have a record of it?
Mr.Sorrels. Possibly so. It is my understanding that at that time they were not actually making any record of calls—they were coming in so fast, the employees of the telephone company told me those calls—they put people through and were not concerned about time.
Mr.Hubert. Was this done by direct dialing or through the operator?
Mr.Sorrels. Through the operator.
Mr.Hubert. And it was a collect call?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. It would have to be charged to the government?
Mr.Sorrels. If it was recorded; yes, it would be, to that particular phone.
Mr.Hubert. I wonder if you would be so kind as to undertake to ascertain for us if there exists a record on that point, because, as you know, we are interested in very narrow areas of time here.
Mr.Sorrels. I would say this—that the time can be established within a matter of a very few minutes, because Oswald was still on the floor and had not been removed to the hospital at the time.
Mr.Hubert. That is right.
But you see, I have estimates of time from other people, and I want to see how it conforms. And therefore, to tie it in, could you give us your estimate of how many minutes or parts of minutes elapsed between the time you made your call, you initiated it, and the time that Oswald actually moved out?
Mr.Sorrels. That I cannot tell you, because I was not there when he was moved out. I left then that area as soon as I made that call.
Mr.Hubert. He was still in the area when you made the call?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir.
The call went through very quickly. And I left that area then and went back to Captain Fritz’ office, because I was interested in talking to the man who had shot Oswald as quickly as possible.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you went down there to the jail office and saw Oswald, as you testified, and made the call, was Jack Ruby there?
Mr.Sorrels. I did not see him.
Mr.Hubert. You did not?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. To your knowledge, he had already been removed?
Mr.Sorrels. That is correct; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. Now, how did you get up to Fritz’ office?
Mr.Sorrels. I went back up the elevator, the regular public elevator, and went to his office and inquired of Captain Fritz, and I was informed that he was not there, that he had gone to the hospital. I then asked him where was Jack Rubin.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say, you had been informed at that time that the last name of Jack Ruby was Rubin, R-u-b-i-n?
Mr.Sorrels. I still—as far as I knew, it was R-u-b-i-n, because that is the way I gave it. I asked him where he was, and they said he was on the fifth floor. And I said I would like to talk to him.And——
Mr.Hubert. Who did you say that to?
Mr.Sorrels. I do not recall who it was—some of the detectives down there.
Mr.Hubert. In Fritz’ office?
Mr.Sorrels. In Captain Fritz’ office; yes. And Officer Dean was instructed to take me up to where he was.
Mr.Hubert. Who instructed Dean to do that?
Mr.Sorrels. The same officer I was talking to—I don’t remember who it was, but someoneapparently——
Mr.Hubert. Did you know Dean prior to that time?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I cannot say that I did.So——
Mr.Hubert. Where was Dean?
Mr.Sorrels. That was in the detective office, CaptainFritz——
Mr.Hubert. What was he doing?
Mr.Sorrels. I don’t know what he was doing.
Mr.Hubert. In any case, the same officer to whom you made inquiry concerning where Captain Fritz was and where Ruby was, that officer directed Dean, who was in Fritz’ office, to take you up?
Mr.Sorrels. That is right.
And we walked out then in the hallway to the jail elevator. Now, that is a different one from the one I came to Fritz’ office in. And I was taken to the fifth floor, and there I saw Ruby, whom I later found out to be Ruby, standing there with, as I recall it, two uniformed police officers. And I introduced myself to him, showed him my credentials, and told him that I would like to ask him some questions.
Mr.Hubert. Now, was this a cell, or what sort of a room was it?
Mr.Sorrels. It wasn’t what you would call a cell, but the elevator—you had to open up a door with bars on it to get into the area there.And——
Mr.Hubert. How large a room was that?
Mr.Sorrels. It wasn’t very large, as I recall it.
Mr.Hubert. Can you give us something by way of dimensions in feet?
Mr.Sorrels. I would say in width it was probably about, oh, 6 or 7 feet wide. Now, as to length, I would not be able to say exactly how long it was, because I was not interested in the size of the room or anything at that time, and I paid no attention to it.
Mr.Hubert. Were there tables and furniture and chairs in it?
Mr.Sorrels. No; nothing.
Mr.Hubert. Nothing at all?
Mr.Sorrels. No; nothing. He was standing there. He only had his shorts on. His clothes had been removed.
Mr.Hubert. Did Dean go into that room with you?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So that there were you and Dean and Ruby in the room?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you mentioned there were two other officers?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, there were two uniformed police officers there.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know who they were?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I do not.
Mr.Hubert. Now, to get it clear—I do not mean if you knew who they were at the time, but do you now know who they were?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I do not know who they are now.
Mr.Hubert. And there were only those two?
Mr.Sorrels. There were possibly some other officers came in. I do not recall that they were there at the time we got there, but there might have been others came in. As I recall, there was somebody behind me. I wasn’t interested in them. I was only interested in talking to this man as quickly as I could.
Mr.Hubert. Before we get into the details, can you tell us how long this interview with Ruby lasted?
Mr.Sorrels. I would say possibly not over 5 to 7 minutes, not very long.
Mr.Hubert. What brought it to an end?
Mr.Sorrels. I had gotten the information that I desired at that time, and was anxious to get it back into Washington, because I had been asked to get as much information as I could quickly, and get it back to them up there, something about his background, who he was and so forth.
Mr.Hubert. So that during that interview, which lasted approximately 5 to 7 minutes, your thought is—you know that there was Dean and yourself and Ruby, and you also know that there were two other officers whose names you do not know even now, and you think that there might have been one or more others who came in?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes—in plainclothes. I don’t recall any other uniformed officers there.
Mr.Hubert. And you do not recall, I suppose, or do not know now the names of any of those other people who might have come in?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I could not tell you who they were at all.
Mr.Hubert. Now, I think you have made a report of that interview, and a later one, and we will offer that in evidence a little later.
But I would like to ask you now if Ruby made any statement to your knowledge at that time, and that is the first interview you had with him, concerning whether he had been in the assembly room on the night of the 22d when Oswald was brought in so that the press could observe him?
Mr.Sorrels. Not at that time; no, sir. He did later.
Mr.Hubert. Did he at that time, the first interview, indicate anything, or say anything which would indicate what his motive or reason for his act was?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; and I might say that it was at that time that I found out his name was Ruby in place of Rubin, and he informed me his name had formerly been Rubinstein, and that he had had his name changed in Dallas.
I asked him—after I identified myself, I told him I would like to ask him some questions.
He said, “For newspapers or magazines?”
I said, “No; for myself.”
He appeared to be considering whether or not he was going to answer my questions, and I told him that I had just come from the third floor, and had been looking out of the window, and that I had seen Honest Joe, who is a Jewish merchant there, who operates a second-hand loan pawn shop, so to speak, specializing in tools, on Elm Street, and who is more or less known in the area because of the fact that he takes advantage of any opportunity to get free advertising. He at that time had an Edsel car, which is somewhat a rarity now, all painted up with “Honest Joe” on there. He wears jackets with “Honest Joe” on the back. He gets writeups in the paper, free advertising about different things he loans money on, like artificial limbs and things like that. And I had noticed Honest Joe across the street when I was looking out of Chief Batchelor’s office.
So I remarked to Jack Ruby, I said, “I just saw Honest Joe across the street over there, and I know a number of Jewish merchants here that you know.”
And Ruby said, “That is good enough for me. What is it you want to know?”
And I said these two words, “Jack—why?”
He said, “When this thing happened”—referring to the assassination, that he was in a newspaper office placing an ad for his business. That when he heardabout the assassination, he had canceled his ad and had closed his business, and he had not done any business for 3 days. That he had been grieving about this thing. That on the Friday night he had gone to the synagogue and had heard a eulogy on the President. That his sister had recently been operated on, and that she has been hysterical. That when he saw that Mrs. Kennedy was going to have to appear for the trial, he thought to himself, why should she have to go through this ordeal for this no-good so-and-so.
Mr.Hubert. Did he use any words or did he say “no-good so-and-so”?
Mr.Sorrels. He used the word “son-of-a-bitch,” as I recall.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Sorrels. That he had heard about the letter to little Caroline, as I recall he mentioned. That he had been to the Western Union office to send a telegram, and that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it. And to use his words after that, “I guess I just had to show the world that a Jew has guts.”
I, of course, asked him when he was born. He told me in Chicago, March 25, 1911. That he operated the Carousel Club. And also a Vegas Club.
I asked him if anyone else was involved in this thing besides him, and he said that there was not.
I asked him if he knew Oswald before this thing happened, and he said he did not. He said that he had been a labor organizer years ago.
I asked him if he had ever been convicted of any offense or done any time, and he said no felony, that he had a JP release in 1954—in other words, he had been arrested but released by the JP in 1954.
I asked him what his father’s name was, and he said his name was Joseph Rubenstein.
I asked him where his father was born, and he said Russia.
I asked him if his mother was living, and he said no, that she was deceased, and that she was born in Poland. That he was of the Jewish faith.
I asked him if he had an attorney, and he said he had Stanley Kaufman, a civil attorney, as his attorney. And I recall, I believe that is about—that about terminated the conversation at that time.
Mr.Hubert. Did you not ask him why he had the gun with him?
Mr.Sorrels. Oh, yes; I did.
I asked him why he had that gun, and he said that he carried a gun because of the fact that he carried large quantities of money from his business, or from the club.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether he made any comment to you or in your hearing regarding the way he got into the basement area where he shot Oswald?
Mr.Sorrels. At that time, I do not. I do not recall asking him how he got in. I made no notes to that effect.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember him saying then anything about that he had intended to shoot Oswald and had formed that intent as early as Friday?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not.
Mr.Hubert. He did not comment at all about his intent?
Mr.Sorrels. No; nothing except his response to my question as to “Jack, why?”, and then his relating as I have told you there a moment ago.
In other words, after Igot——
Mr.Hubert. Did he mention anything about he intended to shoot him three times?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not hear that statement.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, the only comments that you heard him state which bear upon intent are those you have already made—that is to say, somebody had to do it, and also that he wanted to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I did not hear him say that somebody had to do it. I heard him say that he guessed he had worked himself into a state of insanity to where he had to do it, felt he had to do it.
Mr.Hubert. But he did make the report saying he felt he had to show the world that a Jew had guts?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes; that was very plain.
Mr.Hubert. Now, when you left, who left with you?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall, I went by myself, because when I got the information about his background, as I related here, and got his correct name and the information that he was operating alone on this thing, that no one else was involved with him, and he did not know Oswald, I then left in order to telephone that information to my headquarters in Washington.
Mr.Hubert. Can you state positively, therefore, to us that when you left Dean was in the room?
Mr.Sorrels. I think he must have been, because, as I recall it, I went down on the elevator by myself with the elevator operator.
Mr.Hubert. And Dean was in the room at all times you were talking to him?
Mr.Sorrels. As far as I know.
Mr.Hubert. He did not leave with you?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir; he did not.
Mr.Hubert. The two other officers who were in uniform I think you said, who were in the room at first, they were there all the time too?
Mr.Sorrels. As far as I know; yes, sir.
Mr.Hubert. They did not leave when you left?
Mr.Sorrels. No, sir.
Mr.Hubert. And if anybody else came in afterwards, they did not leave when you left?
Mr.Sorrels. Not that I recall.
As I recall it, I think I went down alone, just the elevator operator and myself. Of course he had my sidearm. I had to get my sidearm from him. If there was anyone else there, I didn’t know.
Mr.Hubert. You had to get yoursidearm——
Mr.Sorrels. From the elevator operator.
In other words, you are not permitted to carry a gun inside the jail.
Mr.Hubert. You saw him again later that day?
Mr.Sorrels. Yes, sir; I did.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us what time, under what circumstances, where, who was present, and so forth?
Mr.Sorrels. I do not remember just exactly the time, but it was some time after that when Jack Ruby was brought to Captain Fritz’ office, and Captain Fritz questioned him. I was present at that time and heard Captain Fritz interrogate him and made some notes and wrote them up. And I also at that time asked him a few questions myself, on some points I wanted to clarify.
Mr.Hubert. Were you there from the beginning of the interview between Ruby and Fritz, or did you arrive when it was already going on?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I was there at the beginning, because I heard Captain Fritz tell him of course he did not have to make a statement and so on and so forth, and Ruby said, “Well, I will answer your questions, but some of them I may not want to answer, and I will tell you so.”
Mr.Hubert. Were you introduced to him?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I had talked to him up in the jail there.
Mr.Hubert. Were you present during the entire interview?
Mr.Sorrels. As I recall it, I was, on that one interview.
Mr.Hubert. Can you tell us who else was present?
Mr.Sorrels. No; I do not recall who else was there.
As I recall, there was other officers there in the room with Captain Fritz, but I do not recall who.
Mr.Hubert. Now, you say you had made notes as Captain Fritz was interrogating him. Do you have those notes?