Mr.Griffin. There appears to be an abbreviation for Mrs. written above Oscar Newman, does that mean anything to you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. I will hand you photograph S in this series we have been looking at. Do you recognize any of the names there?
Mr.Crafard. Little Lynn’s name is on there.
There is the name Gloria with the last name of R-e-t-t-i-g, the last name doesn’t mean anything to me. The first name was the same as we have mentioned before.
Mr.Griffin. Is Vicky Williams a name that you recognize?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Yesterday I gave you a copy of the FBI report of its interview with you. Did you have a chance to look that over?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. As a result of having read that interview, are there any changes or corrections that you desire to make in that interview?
Mr.Crafard. Mostly were minor changes. One was the spelling of my wife’s maiden name.
Mr.Griffin. How should that be spelled?
Mr.Crafard. It should be spelled with a “P” instead of an “O” there.
Mr.Griffin. Would you take my pen and correct that and then initial it and date it where it appears in the interview?
I am going to mark this exhibit, “Washington, D. C., April 10, 1964. C. L. Crafard, Exhibit 5226,” and I am going to sign my name to the bottom of the first page.
(The document was marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5226, for identification.)
Mr.Griffin. I have made this notation on the first page of what purports to be an FBI report of an interview with Mr. Crafard, the interview having been conducted on November 28, 1963, at Bellaire, Mich., by Special Agent Theodore S. Kramer, K-r-a-m-e-r, dictated November 29, 1963.
There are eight pages to this report and at the bottom of each page there is a number beginning in sequence with the number 147 and continuing through the number 154 on the last page.
I am going to put my own initials on pages 148 through 154.
You have made your first correction of the name of your wife?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. On the first page of this Exhibit 5226?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, are there any other changes?
Mr.Crafard. Yes, the date of our wedding instead of the 16th of June was the 22d of June.
Mr.Griffin. You are correcting that in the same fashion that you made of the other correction?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. The fact he stated here almost every hour Ruby was asking about calls. Called between one and three times a day.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s make a correction on there, then, if this is agreeable to you the sentence reads, “other than that Ruby would telephone I call, I contact him almost every hour for any calls.”
After the word “contact him” why don’t you cross out the remainder of the sentence and then make a correction in your handwriting.
Mr.Crafard. “almost every hour.”
Mr.Griffin. You are crossing out “almost every hour” and you are going to write something in there.
He has written on here “one or two times” but he spelled day “b-a-y” and he has put his initials CLC with the date 4-10-64. He has crossed out the words “almost every hour.”
Are there any other additions or corrections?
Mr.Crafard. I believe there were a couple of small minor changes in there. This about Ruby kept the revolver when he had money. There was only one occasion when he would take the revolver from the car.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Well, we will have to change that, then.
Mr.Crafard. With this, I can go back and name the one MC I have mentioned and I couldn’t think of his name, Bill Norman.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Now, you have referred to this sentence: “He said that when transporting money Ruby kept his money in the trunk with the revolver and always kept the revolver with him when moving money.”
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you want to cross out everything after the phrase “with the revolver”?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And if you want to add anything, state something to the effectthat, as you have just told me that on one occasion you recall him having the revolver with him.
Mr.Crafard. On one occasion I know of him having the revolver with him.
Mr.Griffin. That is the correction you have made on the paper.
Let me ask you a few questions here, Larry.
Is the one occasion that you are referring to the time when he asked you to go down and get the revolver for him, or are you talking about another occasion?
Mr.Crafard. There was one other occasion when he brought the revolver into the club and it stayed there all evening, when he stayed in the club, and when he left he took the revolver with him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember when that was?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was about a week and a half before the assassination of President Kennedy.
Mr.Griffin. What makes you remember that episode?
Mr.Crafard. I was trying to remember as much as I can about it, and I remember taking the revolver to him helped me remember the fact that he had it on one occasion with him in the club before.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anything that he did or said which gave you any indication of why he had the revolver with him in the club?
Mr.Crafard. No; I believe he had money in the same sack with the revolver, and he just brought it in all together.
Mr.Griffin. Did he have a safe in the club at that time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; but he didn’t use it very often. I believe he had it. I believe he had it at that time; yes.
Mr.Griffin. You testified before that it was Jack’s practice either at the end of every business day or the next day to pick the money up and take it away from the club.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. On how many occasions would you say you were present when Jack, when you saw Jack take money away from the club?
Mr.Crafard. I would say almost every time that he took money from the club I was present.
Mr.Griffin. And on any of these occasions other than the one you have just described, do you recall his having a gun on his person?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I can recall.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever see him take the money and actually put it in his car?
Mr.Crafard. On several occasions, yes.
Mr.Griffin. Where would he put the money in his car?
Mr.Crafard. In the trunk.
Mr.Griffin. Were you in a position where you could observe him put the money into the trunk?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you observe him take anything out of the trunk on those occasions?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Were you in a position so you could have seen him if he took a gun out of the trunk and carried it with him?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I was usually right beside him placing something in the car, myself.
Mr.Griffin. Did you then on these occasions accompany Jack any place?
Mr.Crafard. Once or twice, but usually just put stuff in the car for him and went back upstairs.
Mr.Griffin. And when you would leave Jack on any of these occasions, did he have other people with him, who drove off with him?
Mr.Crafard. One or two times; yes. A couple of times he had Mr. Ralph Paul with him.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how many occasions would you say you went down with him to the car when he carried money down, put the money in the trunk, and Jack drove off then alone?
Mr.Crafard. I would say most of the time when I went down with him he drove off alone.
Mr.Griffin. Can you give us what your best estimate is of the number of times this would have been when he drove off alone?
Mr.Crafard. I would say about eight or nine times that I am definite.
Mr.Griffin. How many times a day did you have occasion to go into the trunk of Jack’s automobile?
Mr.Crafard. Maybe it would be 2 or 3 days I wouldn’t go near his automobile, and there might be a day when I would go get something out of the trunk of his car two or three different times during the day.
Mr.Griffin. On occasions when you went down to the trunk of his car was Jack carrying money around in the trunk of his car?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. He most always had money in the trunk of his car.
Mr.Griffin. How did you know this?
Mr.Crafard. He had told me so on several occasions, and on several occasions I was with him when he placed money in his car when I went upstairs and then he would send me down after something out of the trunk of his car.
Mr.Griffin. Were you able to tell whether, after Jack would carry the daily receipts down to the car if he would continue to carry money in his car, in the trunk of his car, or whether he would take the money out so that the next day when he would come back and pick up the next day’s receipts the trunk was empty so far as money was concerned?
Mr.Crafard. He carried the money for the receipts for a week at a time.
Mr.Griffin. On these occasions when he carried the money for a week at a time, do you ever recall him going into the trunk and putting the gun in his pocket as he was driving off?
Mr.Crafard. No. Only one time that I can recall a gun being in the car, I was in the car with Jack, I believe it was the second night I was at the Vegas Club, he brought the money sack in and the money sack that the gun was in, was in the main money sack, and we put it in the front seat of the car between us, right by my side.
Mr.Griffin. Was it Jack’s practice to keep a key to the trunk of the car any place in the automobile?
Mr.Crafard. Other than on his key ring, I wouldn’t know of any keys.
Mr.Griffin. How many occasions did you have to go down to Jack’s automobile by yourself and open the trunk of the car?
Mr.Crafard. Oh, I would say between 15 or 20 or 25 times while I was with him.
Mr.Griffin. And on each of these occasions did you have to get a key to open the trunk?
Mr.Crafard. Jack would give me the key, he would give me his key ring with the key on it.
Mr.Griffin. Were there ever any occasions when Jack left the trunk unlocked that you recall?
Mr.Crafard. No. The trunk on his car was the type that you have got to unlock it to open it, and when you close it it automatically locks, and you remove the key and it automatically locks.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack have a regular parking space for his car near the Carousel Club?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; in the parking garage right downstairs.
Mr.Griffin. Have you seen where he parked his car at his home?
Mr.Crafard. I saw the parking lot. I don’t know whether he used the same space all the time.
Mr.Griffin. Was it an open parking lot?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know if Jack had any sort of a safe in this apartment?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. That is, you don’t know.
Mr.Crafard. I don’t know.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along this line?
Mr.Hubert. You were talking about the trunk and the money and all that. Did you get into the record about where the gun was?
Mr.Griffin. I believe we did, but why don’t you ask the questions?
Mr.Hubert. It wasn’t clear to me, perhaps I didn’t catch it, as to whether or not Jack kept the gun in the trunk of the car or on his person.
Mr.Crafard. In the trunk of the car, he kept it in a money sack in the trunk of the car.
Mr.Griffin. I believe your testimony was that, so that Mr. Hubert can be brought up to date, that you only ever saw him carry the gun on his person on two occasions, one of those occasions being when you brought the gun up to him at the club in connection with some sort of an argument that he had, and the other one was when he brought it in a money bag on one occasion.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So that your testimony a few moments ago concerning the money and how you saw him put money in there, sometimes you carried it down, or at least saw it there, is that when there was money there there was a gun with the money, usually in a sack with the money?
Mr.Crafard. The money was usually in a different, separate sack from the gun, but at times he would take the sacks, on these two occasions that I know of, he took the sack the money was in, the sack the gun was in and put them all in a larger sack.
Mr.Hubert. Did you know him to own a holster?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. To hold a gun?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. On the two occasions that he did have the gun on his person, how did he have it?
Mr.Crafard. It was inside of a money sack, and he carried it in his hands, the money sack wrapped around the gun and laying in his hand.
Mr.Hubert. That is the two occasions that you say he had it on his person?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You never saw him put it in his pocket or his waistbelt?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. That is all.
Mr.Griffin. Had you ever heard from Jack or Andy Armstrong or anybody else that Jack had ever been robbed or burglarized?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Continuing on with your copy of the FBI interview report, are there any other corrections or additions or changes that you would make?
Mr.Crafard. One addition I would like to make to my testimony of the fact that when Ruby first came to the club on the day that President Kennedy was killed, and before he left he called the paper and placed an ad to the effect that we would be closed, from the club.
Mr.Griffin. You are reading this out of what is page 150?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Of your interview report?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. You have had a chance to read this interview report, and does this refresh your recollection?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. After reading it yesterday evening, and thinking about the whole thing yesterday, last night at the hotel, I have refreshed my memory to some extent.
Mr.Griffin. After having refreshed your recollection with this report, are you able to state how soon after Ruby came into the club he told Andy Armstrong to notify the personnel?
Mr.Crafard. It wasn’t more than about a half hour or 45 minutes after he came into the club.
Mr.Griffin. But he didn’t do it right away?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. You people sat around for awhile?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you discuss as you were sitting there the question of closing the club?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe we did.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember how Jack came to give these instructions to Andy?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. How soon after Andy began to call the personnel do you remember Jack calling the newspapers and changing the ad?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was just shortly after Andy started calling personnel and Jack went in and used the pay phone and said something about calling the paper.
Mr.Griffin. You recall if up to that time Jack had received a telephone call from any newspaper person asking him if his clubs were going to be open?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. Are there any other additions or changes or corrections that you would make in this interview report in your testimony as a result of having read the interview report?
Mr.Crafard. I believe yesterday I was talking about the financial setup of the club. I believe I said it was fairly good. I would say that this portion of my statement here referring to the financial setup was gained from the fact that Jack was always complaining about going broke, and a portion in my testimony the other day about the financial position of the club was my own opinion.
Mr.Griffin. Now, you are referring to page 150 of the interview report?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And as I understand what you are saying in here was that when you told the FBI that the club couldn’t financially stand to be closed, you were making that statement on the basis of what Jack had said?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But your own personal opinion was?
Mr.Crafard. That the club was making enough money to hold its own, even on a closure of 2 or 3 or maybe 4 days.
Mr.Griffin. Would you want to make a change on page 150 so that—well, maybe we shouldn’t make this change. There is no question in your mind but that the FBI interview states, is an accurate reporting of what you said at that time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; there is no question.
Mr.Griffin. Now, passing on to page 151, is there anything there that you would change?
Mr.Crafard. The fact here that Ruby said he was going to his sister at that time. I don’t believe he at that time mentioned where he was going. When he returned later in the evening he mentioned where he was going.
Mr.Griffin. You are referring to the language at the top of page 151 which says, “Ruby said that he was going to his sister’s home and asked Crafard if he desired to accompany him, which offer was refused”?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe there was a time element setup there where they haven’t included in this testimony here of the fact that the early portion of this was about the financial setup, about calling the paper was at one time, and when he said something about going to his sister was later in the afternoon.
(Discussion off the record.)
Mr.Griffin. Continuing on page 151, are there any other additions or corrections or changes you would make?
Mr.Crafard. The second paragraph on page 151, the second complete paragraph where it starts, “Ruby then came back to the club or called Crafard about 7:30 p.m., that evening.” I would like to strike out or called about 7:30 p.m., in the evening. The fact he had come back to the club is something I have established yesterday.
Mr.Griffin. All right. But you did at that time you talked to the FBI, you weren’t sure whether he came back or called?
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. Now, how about the time—7:30 p.m., as you think back about that now?
Mr.Crafard. At thetime——
Mr.Griffin. Is that an accurate time?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so. I believe it was a supposed time, approximate time.
Mr.Griffin. But is that your best recollection of the time, or would you now alter your estimate of what time it was?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that I said yesterday it was about 6 or 6:30 when he came back to the club, I am not sure. I would say between 6:30 and 7:30 would be about the best estimate I might give on it.
Mr.Griffin. What makes you make that estimate?
Mr.Crafard. If I remember right, 8 o’clock I was sitting in the drugstore eating lunch, approximately 8 o’clock.
Mr.Griffin. How do you recall being at the drugstore at 8 o’clock?
Mr.Crafard. The one girl that works over there goes off at 8 o’clock and she left while I was there.
Mr.Griffin. So, actually, you got to the drugstore some time before 8 o’clock?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And by that time Jack Ruby had already returned to the club and asked you to accompany him to Eva Grant’s?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack mention to you at that time anything about going to the synagogue?
Mr.Crafard. No; not that I can remember. On the third paragraph on page 151, I believe yesterday I gave an earlier time for this same event of Jack calling me at the club on the morning of November 23.
Mr.Griffin. Now, the language you are referring to is on Saturday morning, November 23, at about 5:30 a.m., Ruby called him and told him to meet him downstairs with the Polaroid camera and some film.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I believe yesterday that the time I gave was about 2 hours earlier than this.
Mr.Griffin. What is your best recollection now as to the time? Was your memory more accurate at the time you told the FBI about this episode or is it more accurate now after having spent 2 days discussing the matter?
Mr.Crafard. I believe in the trial in Texas it came out pretty well to where it just about had to be between 4:30 and 5 when he called.
Mr.Griffin. How did you arrive at that conclusion?
Mr.Crafard. At the trial, there was quite a bit of questioning on this effect.
Mr.Griffin. Of you?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. And I believe the different times that some of the previous witnesses had given the lawyer, and I come to the agreement it must have been about between 4:30 and 5 o’clock that he called me.
Mr.Hubert. What is your best recollection now? That is what we want to get.
Mr.Griffin. Let’s disregard what other people have told you to suggest what the time is, and try to think about your own activities. As I recall, you testified that you talked for 2 or 3 hours with a girl on the telephone.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And then you read for a while, and then you apparently started to doze off, to go to sleep.
Mr.Crafard. I believe the other time, the time element I used yesterday would be more of a correct time than this.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us just your recollection right now today.
Mr.Crafard. I would say between about 3:30 and 4:30.
In the same paragraph further down, closer towards the bottom. “When he got to the car, George, Ruby’s roommate, was also there and they drove out on the Stemmons Freeway.” I believe in this testimony here the Stemmons Freeway was more of a suggested name to me than anything else. I would like to clearly state I am definitely not positive of that sign.
Mr.Griffin. I believe you testified also yesterday that it was the Central Expressway.
Mr.Crafard. Yes. I believe it was on the Central Expressway.
Referring to page 152 of this testimony, and back to previous testimony, I have made here concerning the mention of the name of Lee Harvey Oswald, I believe that this would be about the first time that we used the name of Oswald, was used very much among us. Previous to this, I don’t believe there was any reference made to this person by name.
Mr.Griffin. Starting on page 151?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. With the sentence, “He also recalled that while being at the waffle shop on Commerce Street, Ruby was reading about Lee Harvey Oswald in a newspaper.”
Mr.Crafard. That is right.
Mr.Griffin. How long a time would you say you spent at the waffle shop?
Mr.Crafard. Twenty or twenty-five minutes, maybe a half hour.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall what time it was when you were at the waffle shop?
Mr.Crafard. Right around six in the morning.
Mr.Griffin. How long did you spend at the Earl Warren sign photographing that sign?
Mr.Crafard. Not more than 20 minutes at the most.
Mr.Griffin. You think it might have been as long as 20 minutes?
Mr.Crafard. It might have been; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you spend some time in the car talking about the sign before you got out to photograph it?
Mr.Crafard. No. I believe we got out of the car immediately when we pulled over.
Mr.Griffin. Did it take you 15 or 20 minutes to photograph the sign?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Why did it take so long?
Mr.Crafard. Trying to get the right angle on the sign where I could get the clearest picture of the words of the sign.
Mr.Griffin. Did you have to walk across the street to photograph the sign?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack Ruby get out of the car with you at the time?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; all three of us, Ruby, Senator and myself got out of the car.
Mr.Griffin. Going over onto page 152, are there any additions or corrections which you would make?
Mr.Crafard. No; that is about it.
Mr.Griffin. I want to ask you some specific questions about that. I have made some notes myself.
On the bottom of page 148 of the FBI interview, which is Exhibit 5226, the FBI reports this language, “However, Andy Armstrong or Alexander, the assistant manager and bartender would handle the money until midnight.”
Did you ever know Andy Armstrong by the name of Alexander?
Mr.Crafard. No; I couldn’t recall exactly what his last name was. At that time I believe my recollection was that it was either Armstrong or Alexander but I wasn’t positive just exactly what his last name was.
Mr.Griffin. In this interview as reported on page 147 of Exhibit 5226, you state that “After completing this job Ruby asked him to stay at the club and work for room and board.”
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. He had the room in front of Ruby’s office? This would be approximately November 1, 1963?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I believe you have testified previously here that you thought you worked for Ruby for 6 weeks to 2 months.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. But, of course, if you went to work for him on November 1 you would have only worked for him about 3 weeks. Now, which is the more accurate recollection?
Mr.Crafard. My dates are mixed up on that. I am not positive of the date of the Dallas, Texas State Fair.
Mr.Griffin. Did you work at the State Fair until the State Fair closed?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I thought I understood your testimony on Wednesday to be that the second show that you worked for there, the one with theband——
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Closed a few days before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr.Crafard. It closed the day before the State Fair actually closed.
Mr.Griffin. Did you continue to work at the State Fair?
Mr.Crafard. I stayed at the State Fair.
Mr.Griffin. So that the way to accurately date when you began to work for Ruby would be in terms of when the State Fair closed?
Mr.Crafard. It would be starting the day after the Dallas, Tex., State Fair closed.
Mr.Griffin. How long did the State Fair last?
Mr.Crafard. Two weeks.
Mr.Griffin. So that the show, How Hollywood Makes Movies lasted about 1 week?
Mr.Crafard. Right at that; yes.
Mr.Griffin. And the band show lasted about another week?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. On page 149, the FBI reports you as indicating, and I am quoting, “He said that one night approximately November 14 or 15, 1963, Ruby was having trouble with an MC Earl Norman at the Carousel and about 1:30 a.m., he, Ruby, sent Crafard out to the car to get the gun.”
Mr.Crafard. I believe in testimony yesterday I stated that I couldn’t remember exactly who he had the trouble with, and I am right now not clear after thinking all night, I am not clear in my mind as to the fact that it was Earl Norman.
Mr.Griffin. Was your memory accurate at the time you talked with the FBI?
Mr.Crafard. I am not positive of that.
Mr.Griffin. Are you sure, though, that the reason Ruby went to get the gun was because he was having trouble with the M.C.?
Mr.Crafard. No; that is what I say. I am not positive of the fact who it was he was having trouble with.
Mr.Griffin. Are you sure that Ruby went to get the gun because he was having trouble with somebody?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; he had had some trouble with somebody and he had sent me to get the gun.
Mr.Griffin. You stated that the gun was believed to be the property of Howard?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. The Negro employee, and I am reading that from page 149. Is it still your understanding that that gun was Howard’s gun?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Shortly after I went to work for Jack he told me or Howard told me that when he first went to work for Jack he had three or four different guns and he had permits for his pistols, and on a couple of occasions the law forces confiscated his pistols and later returned them, and he was afraid this might happen again and he wouldn’t get this particular pistol back so Jack asked him if he could borrow the gun and he told Jack yes; he could use the gun as long as he wanted.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack ever say anything to you which indicated that the gun was not Jack Ruby’s gun?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you talk to Howard about the gun that Jack Ruby had at any time after you went down to the car on the 14th or 15th of November to bring the gun up to Jack?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever talk specifically with Howard about the gun that Jack was carrying around in the trunk of his car?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; this was the gun our conversation was about. He said that gun had belonged, it was his gun, that he had loaned it to Mr. Ruby.
Mr.Griffin. Do you remember what kind of a .38 caliber revolver this was?
Mr.Crafard. I believe it was a Colt. Other than that I couldn’t say. It was a snubnosed revolver, Colt snubnosed is all I know.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anything distinguishing about the handle?
Mr.Crafard. I couldn’t describe anything distinguishable about the handle,but I believe I could recognize the revolver if I was to see it. Excuse me, that handle was an, I believe an imitation bone handle on that pistol. I believe it was kind of a grayish-white imitation bone handle with dark brown spots on it.
Mr.Griffin. You testified that you believe Little Lynn called sometime on Friday evening, November 22?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What time would be your recollection that telephone call was received, was it before or after you had dinner at 8 o’clock over at the drug store?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that was before I had dinner. I believe I said something to Jack about it when he came back and he said if she called again to give, tell her to call Miss Grant.
Mr.Griffin. Did she call back?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so. And I told her to call Miss Grant.
Mr.Griffin. On page 151 of Exhibit 5226 you are reported as saying in connection with the photograph of the Earl Warren sign and the post office box and I am quoting from the FBI report, “Crafard said he was completely puzzled as Earl Warren was unknown to him.”
I believe you testified earlier here in Washington that you recall Ruby making some connection between an advertisement that he had seen in the newspaper and the Earl Warren sign.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Did you remember that connection at the time you talked with the FBI?
Mr.Crafard. I believe I said something to them about the numbers on the address having something to do with something else that Ruby had talked about. I don’t believe I would have anything to do with this advertisement. I don’t believe anything on that.
Mr.Griffin. Is it possible that—are you clear that Ruby, now, that Ruby did make some connection between the advertisement and the sign?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; very clear. It was in connection with the addresses on the sign and this post office box number on this ad that he had saw in the paper.
Mr.Griffin. Are you making this statement as a result of something that you personally recall or is this something that is now in your mind because of conversations you may have had with other people?
Mr.Crafard. This is something that I personally, clearly recall him making the statement.
Mr.Griffin. Is it—Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions you want to ask along that line?
On page 153 of Exhibit 5226 the FBI reports and I quote, “He knows of no police contacts on Ruby’s behalf but said Ruby did keep a police card in the cash register at the Carousel with a name unknown to him on it.”
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you describe this police card?
Mr.Crafard. It was a white card with the emblem of a badge on it with some numbers on top of it, numbers on the badge. I can’t recall what they were, if they were even clear. I believe it to have been in connection with some sort of a police club or something of that sort, either that or it was a detective’s card that he might have one of the business cards, something.
Mr.Griffin. It was a card about the size of a business card?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. And could you tell what police department this person was from?
Mr.Crafard. Dallas, Tex., Police Department.
Mr.Griffin. Could it have been the Dallas County Sheriff’s office?
Mr.Crafard. It could have been; yes, sir. It was from the Dallas, one of the Dallas police departments.
Mr.Griffin. Well, did it have the name that was written on this card or printed on the card, did it have a rank in connection with it?
Mr.Crafard. I don’t believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Could it have been a card from a justice of the peace?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t believe so. I never saw a justice of a peace card with an emblem of a shield on it. They usually have the emblem of the Justice Department.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned Bill Willis as being a close friend of Jack.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Bill Willis the leader of the band that played at the Carousel?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so; yes.
Mr.Griffin. Are you sure of that?
Mr.Crafard. I am not positive but I believe he was.
Mr.Griffin. Was Bill Willis, Ruby’s closest friend, in the band?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. What led you to that conclusion?
Mr.Crafard. Well, the fact that they would talk together quite often, if something come up in connection with the band it was always Bill he talked to. Bill seemed to talk to Ruby more than any of the other member of the band, and Ruby when he talked to anybody in the band it would be to Bill Willis more than anyone else.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to depart from this exhibit for a bit. You worked for the Tear Plating Company?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I am not clear whether that was in Texas or Oregon.
Mr.Crafard. In Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. How about the Ablon Poultry?
Mr.Crafard. Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know a detective by the name of Joe Cody?
Mr.Crafard. I believe that Jack had me call him on one occasion where he wanted to talk to him.
Mr.Griffin. You mentioned that you worked at the Dallas State Fair for Bob Craven and Deke Miles.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was there anything about those men that would have led you to believe that they were homosexuals?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. While you were working for Jack did you know that he was getting any skin or scalp treatments of any sort?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you know anything about any trichology treatments he was getting?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did Jack express, ever express any concern about his baldness?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I remember.
Mr.Griffin. This wasn’t a subject that he joked about or that other people kidded him about?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I remember; no.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall while you were working for Jack, Jack’s making any inquiry concerning a business partner?
Mr.Crafard. Yes. He was trying to get somebody to go in with him to open another club in Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. What did you hear him say about that?
Mr.Crafard. He called two or three different people and talked to them trying to get them to go in with him on this club. He made something, a statement to the effect that he had a building already, that it wouldn’t take much to get it into shape, something about they could make the best club in Dallas, make it into the best club in Dallas, I believe specialized clientele, you might say a closed club.
Mr.Griffin. Was this going to be a striptease club?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall any of the people that Jack talked with about that?
Mr.Crafard. No, sir; I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. What was Jack trying to interest these people in doing?
Mr.Crafard. Backing him.
Mr.Griffin. He was looking for money?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know anything about any friends that Jack had at a bar called Ed’s Bar?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Are you familiar with Ed’s Bar?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. How about the Dallas Cabana, do you know anything about any friends or acquaintances down there?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he knew the gentleman who runs the Cabana Club.
Mr.Griffin. Was that man ever at the Carousel?
Mr.Crafard. I am not positive. He may have been but I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any idea how often Jack visited the Cabana?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. Do you have any idea how often he visited the Baker Hotel or the Adolphus Hotel?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever meet or hear Jack talk about or hear anybody else talk about a girl named Connie Tramel or Trammell?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. I believe you testified before that you don’t recall Jack saying anything about, saying anything after the President was killed about the dogs he was going to send to California?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Do you know whether Jack visited the Ritz Delicatessen?
Mr.Crafard. The what?
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear of the Ritz, R-i-t-z, Delicatessen?
Mr.Crafard. I believe he ate meals there occasionally, although I am not positive.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear Jack discuss any travels he had taken?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear him discuss having been to Cuba?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear him discuss anything about taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Plans for taking a Caribbean cruise?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. Did you ever hear him discuss Barney Ross?
Mr.Crafard. Not that I remember.
Mr.Griffin. Barney Ross’ name familiar to you?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Griffin. I want to hand you what I have marked as “Exhibit 5227” and I would like you to look at that and tell me if you recognize that.
(Letter marked Crafard Exhibit No. 5227 for identification.)
Mr.Crafard. Yes; it is a letter I wrote.
Mr.Griffin. Are you able to tell without having read that letter when it was you wrote it?
Mr.Crafard. Not the exact date. It was while I was working for Jack.
Mr.Griffin. Can you recall how long it was before you left Dallas before you wrote that letter?
Mr.Crafard. I believe about a week before I left Dallas.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall why you didn’t mail that letter?
Mr.Crafard. No, I don’t.
Mr.Griffin. Would you read that letter through and tell us if that is the actual letter that you wrote?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; this is the letter I wrote.
Mr.Griffin. Would you like that letter back?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I would.
Mr.Griffin. All right. Would you mind if we made a photocopy?
Mr.Crafard. I wouldn’t mind it if you want it but that—but just give me a moment. I believe the reason I didn’t mail this letter because I hadremembered—because I had rewrote the letter just about exactly as it is here, but in a neater hand.
Mr.Griffin. And you actually did mail that letter?
Mr.Crafard. I believe so.
Mr.Griffin. How long before you left Dallas did you mail that letter?
Mr.Crafard. It would have been about a week. About the same time I wrote it. I am not sure of it, I am not definite of that. But I believe that is the reason, I have done so on several occasions, wrote a letter and then rewrote it so it would be neater.
Mr.Griffin. I realize the letter is a personal letter. However, I think it reflects some things about your state of mind while you were in Dallas and your relationship to Jack Ruby that we would like to have for the record and maybe we can handle this by my giving you a copy of that letter.
Mr.Crafard. Have you got a copy?
Mr.Griffin. I don’t have a photocopy of it but I have—it has been written up in an FBI report and simply ask you if that is an accurate—the FBI report is an accurate rendition of the letter and then we can refer to it.
Mr.Hubert. Mr. Crafard, I understand you have asked us to return to you the original of the letter written by you to “Dear Gale” covering the front and back of a page, which has a letterhead on it “Jack Ruby Associates, Dallas, Texas” and which has been identified in this deposition as Exhibit 5227. Normally when a witness produces a document before the Commission we make a photostatic copy, keep the copy and then give the witness his document back. However, this document did not come into our possession in that way, you see.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. We got this document from the FBI. Therefore, we do not have authority to give it back to you. I will be glad to have a copy made for you if you would like to do that.
Mr.Crafard. That is all right.
Mr.Hubert. Would you like a copy?
Mr.Crafard. No; there is no need to go to that trouble. It is just I had no idea I had left that particular letter. I know I didn’t do it on purpose. It was accidental, but I left it.
Mr.Griffin. Larry, I want to hand you what has been marked for identification as “Exhibits 5228-A” and “5228-B”. Now, do you recognize those as photographs of anything?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; these are photographs of my DD-214, my Army discharge, the front and back sides.
Mr.Griffin. Are those, that DD-214, is the paper that you turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Are those true and accurate copies of the DD-214 that you gave to us?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. All right. I am going to return to you your copy of the DD-214, and thank you for producing that. I am also going to hand you two photographs which I will mark in the following manner—hand you one photograph—I am going to hand you two photographs which I may have marked “Washington D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5229-A and B,” and I will ask you to look at those and tell us if you recognize those as photographs of anything which you have seen before.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; they are exhibits of the front side and reverse side of the subpena that I was handed for the Jack Ruby murder trial in Dallas, Tex.
Mr.Griffin. All right. You brought this subpena to us and turned it over to us on Wednesday, is that right?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to return you, then, the subpena which you gave us on Wednesday, and thank you for bringing that in. Did you also produce on Wednesday a diary?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to hand you a series of 10 photographs which aremarked, “Washington, D.C., April 10, 1964, C. L. Crafard, Exhibits 5230,” and they are numbered on the face of the photograph in a sequence starting with “A” which contains a picture of the front cover of a notebook which says, “USS” with a circle around the USS, and then in quotation marks “oil well” and then down on the bottom right-hand corner of this front cover which is photographed the number 1964. That photograph has the letter “A” on the front of it. After that, there are a series of photographs numbered in sequence 1 through 10 making a total of 11 photographs altogether. Now, I would like you to look at these photographs and tell us if that is a, if those photographs are photographs of anything that you have ever seen before.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; these are photographs of a pocket diary that is put out by United States Steel for the oil well corporation.
Mr.Griffin. Who maintained that diary?
Mr.Crafard. I did.
Mr.Griffin. Is that, are those photographs of the diary which you turned over to us on Wednesday?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Would you go through those photographs and tell us if everything that you have written in that diary up to date has been photographed in those pictures?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; everything I have wrote in that book is here.
Mr.Griffin. Do the Nos. 1 through 10 follow in sequence with the pages, the sequence of the pages that contain writing in your notebook?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I want to direct your attention to photograph No. 1. There is a notation at the top of that photograph. Would you read that notation?
Mr.Crafard. “No. 844,” the letters HEB 12, 13 and underneath, 844 is the Nos. 12 with a dash 23.
Mr.Griffin. Did you put that notation in the notebook?
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I did.
Mr.Griffin. When did you put that on there?
Mr.Crafard. Just shortly after I got the notebook in Michigan.
Mr.Griffin. What is that notation, what does that refer to?
Mr.Crafard. It refers to the Bible. It is referring to the Book of Hebrews, page 844 the 12th Chapter, and 23d verse.
Mr.Griffin. Why did you write that in there?
Mr.Crafard. There is something in the Bible that refers to the church to which I belong.
Mr.Griffin. What church is that?
Mr.Crafard. General Assembly Church of the First Born. That is the only place in the Bible where the name can be found.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask about the notebook?
Mr.Hubert. No.
Mr.Griffin. I am going to return the notebook to you at this time, and I want to thank you for bringing those documents to us. I want to ask you one final question. Is there anything which has come to your attention in connection with the murder of Lee Oswald or the assassination of President Kennedy that you haven’t told us about that you think would be of value to the Commission?
Mr.Crafard. No; I can’t think of anything.
Mr.Griffin. I will ask you after we conclude this deposition if anything does come to your attention which might be of value to the Commission if you would contact us and bring it to our attention.
Mr.Crafard. Yes; I will do so.
Mr.Griffin. Mr. Hubert, do you have any questions that you want to ask?
Mr.Hubert. Yes. There have been several conversations between us which might be called interviews in the sense we were talking about the matter at hand during lunch and so forth, is that correct?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember that anything we conversed about at lunch or any interviews, has not been subsequently made a part of this deposition?
Mr.Crafard. No; I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever talked to any other member of the Commission staff than Mr. Griffin and myself?
Mr.Crafard. No.
Mr.Hubert. Do you feel that considering your testimony and various exhibits that you have identified that we have all you know about the matter that the Commission is investigating?
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And that is, the death of President Kennedy, and the subsequent violent death of Lee Harvey Oswald, and Ruby’s connection therewith.
Mr.Crafard. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. I want to thank you for coming here and spending these 3 days with us, and I believe that concludes the deposition.