Mr.Hubert. Had he been drinking?
Mr.Senator. Jack don’t drink.
Mr.Hubert. He wasn’t drinking on this occasion?
Mr.Senator. No; he don’t drink, no.
Mr.Hubert. And his remarks were concerning the children?
Mr.Senator. The children and Mrs. Kennedy and how sorry he felt for them.
Mr.Hubert. What other comments did he make?
Mr.Senator. Then he brought up the situation where he saw this poster of Justice of the Peace Earl Warren, impeach him. Earl Warren.
Mr.Hubert. He said he had seen that poster?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he had saw that poster.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say when he had noticed it?
Mr.Senator. No; I think he noticed it that day or sometime that day, I assume. I am not sure, but I think it was that day, and I assume that when something goes into his brain he wants to follow it up and find out why, why that poster was up there.
Mr.Griffin. Had you had some experiences like that before?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Griffin. But I mean you said some experiences where he got something in his mind and he wanted to find out why, and he followed it up.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I can’t relate any, but I assume these things could happen.
Mr.Griffin. But you had never had any experience of that sort?
Mr.Senator. No; I haven’t had any experience.
Mr.Griffin. So, this was a new experience for you.
Mr.Senator. Yes; and he made me get dressed.
Mr.Hubert. What did he tell you when he made you get dressed?
Mr.Senator. He was telling me about this sign here.
Mr.Hubert. Why did he want you to get dressed?
Mr.Senator. He wanted me to go down to see the sign, and meanwhile he had called. He had a kid sleeping in the club who helps around, and he has got a Polaroid camera. So he calls the kid up, wakes him up.
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear that call?
Mr.Senator. What?
Mr.Hubert. Did you hear that call?
Mr.Senator. Yeah, he calls him up and says, “Larry, get up, get dressed,” something of that nature, “and get that Polaroid with the flashbulbs and meet me downstairs. I’ll be right downtown.”
Mr.Hubert. That was after he told you to get dressed?
Mr.Senator. Yes; after he told me first.
Mr.Hubert. Did he at that time comment upon or notice the Weissman ad that you had been reading the night before, the big ad that you commented upon, “Why, Mr. President,” I think it was called?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember he noticed it there or he noticed it after the incident. Now, if he seen it before I just don’t remember, but I know after we got through this incident, which I will relate to you, we were looking at this ad.
Mr.Hubert. And that was at the house?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no; this was—I saw it myself originally.
Mr.Hubert. In the newspapers?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You had the newspaper on your bed. You had gone to sleep reading?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I probably threw it on the floor. I think I threw it on the floor before I went to bed.
Mr.Hubert. In any case you have no recollection that you discussed the ad prior to leaving the house?
Mr.Senator. I just don’t remember if I did or not, but I do know that we did look at that ad that night at another place.
Mr.Hubert. We will get to that. What happened next then?
Mr.Senator. Well, I got dressed, went downstairs, got in the car. I got dressed. We went downtown. We picked up Larry. He drove over to where this billboard was.
Mr.Hubert. Had he told you where it was beforehand?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he told me it was on the corner of Hall and the expressway.
Mr.Hubert. Which expressway?
Mr.Senator. North Central Expressway. I had an indication because I sort of knew the location of the area. I know where Hall Street is and I know where the expressway is.
Mr.Hubert. Go ahead. Just pick up as to what happened.
Mr.Senator. So we went downtown and picked up Larry. From there we drove over to where this billboard was, and he had the kid take three Polaroid shots of this billboard. Now, what his intentions were with these I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. He didn’t express any?
Mr.Senator. No; he didn’t say what he was going to do with them but he wanted three shots.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ask him or did anyone else ask him why he wanted to take pictures of this?
Mr.Senator. No; all he said to me, “I can’t understand why they want to impeach Earl Warren.” He said, “This must be the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party.” And he wanted to know why.
Mr.Hubert. Did he say how taking a picture would help him to find out?
Mr.Senator. No; he didn’t. He didn’t say how that would help him to find out. So from there we went down to the post office.
Mr.Hubert. Did Larry go with you?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. To the post office, I mean.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. What did you do at the post office?
Mr.Senator. Wait now, we went down to the post area. This sort of slips away from me when the time gets by on the ad. We must have discussed it or seen it at the house. I just remember now, but I think we probably did. We must have seen it. So anyhow we went up to the post office.
Mr.Hubert. When you say “thead”——
Mr.Senator. The paper ad.
Mr.Hubert. The Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr.Senator. Yes; the Bernard Weissman ad.
Mr.Hubert. So you now think, and let me get it straight, you previously stated that you weren’t sure?
Mr.Senator. I wasn’t sure.
Mr.Hubert. That Ruby had noticed the Bernard Weissman ad after he hadwakened you at the house, and you were dressing, and before you left, but you think now you must have?
Mr.Senator. We must have because we went to the post office.
Mr.Hubert. When he did see the ad, was there a comment about that?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he wanted to know why on this.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, there were two things he wanted to know why on.
Mr.Senator. Right.
Mr.Hubert. Why the Earl Warren poster and why the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr.Senator. Right; yes.
Mr.Hubert. So then he had you take Polaroid pictures of the poster concerning Chief Justice Warren, and then you went to the post office.
Mr.Senator. We went to the post office.
Mr.Hubert. What was the purpose of going there, and in connection with what?
Mr.Senator. Well, that was in connection—going to the post office was in connection with the paper ad now.
Mr.Hubert. How was it connected to the paper ad?
Mr.Senator. Well, there was a post office box on this ad. I just don’t recall the number of the post office box. But he wanted to see if there was such a box.
Mr.Hubert. So did you go into the post office with him?
Mr.Senator. We went into the post office. We saw a box with that number on it. There was a lot of mail in there.
Now, of course, who it belonged to—we don’t know if it belonged to him or not, but he did press the night buzzer. There was a little hole there where you get the night clerk, and he asked the night clerk who—I think it was 1762 or something like that. I just don’t remember the number.
He asked him who it is. The night man says, “I can’t give you any information. Any information you want there is only one man can give it to you and that is the postmaster of Dallas.”
Mr.Hubert. Did Ruby make a reply to that?
Mr.Senator. Not to my knowledge. You mean to him?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; to the clerk. Did he say anything more?
Mr.Senator. No; if I am not mistaken, I think he said “How do you get to the postmaster” or something of that nature. I am not sure now.
Mr.Hubert. Was he annoyed with the clerk?
Mr.Senator. No; he wasn’t annoyed with the clerk, but he was deeply annoyed with the ad, with both ads.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you how checking the box at the post office would assist him in whatever he had in mind?
Mr.Senator. He wanted to know; he had also said that he had checked the telephone directory and couldn’t find this Bernard Weissman, who supposedly put an ad like this here, and couldn’t have been local because he looked to see if there was a Bernard Weissman in the Dallas telephone book.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t see him look it up. He merely told you that?
Mr.Senator. He merely told me that. I didn’t see him look it up.
Mr.Hubert. Did Larry Crafard go with you to the post office?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did he stay in the automobile, or come to the post office with you?
Mr.Senator. I believe he came into the post office. I have to guess on this. I am not sure, but I think he came into the post office.
Mr.Hubert. All right.
Mr.Senator. Then from there we went to the Southland Hotel coffeeshop.
Mr.Hubert. Where is that located?
Mr.Senator. That is on the corner, on Commerce, and I don’t know what the little side street is, but it is just below the Adolphus Hotel on Commerce Street. I don’t know what the side street is.
Mr.Hubert. Who went?
Mr.Senator. Jack, Larry, and myself.
Mr.Hubert. How long did you stay there?
Mr.Senator. I would assume we stayed there—maybe about 15 minutes would be a rough guess.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall the nature of the discussion between you at that time?
Mr.Senator. Yes. He reread this paper ad of the why’s of the President.
Mr.Hubert. Where did he get the paper from?
Mr.Senator. It happened to be it was lying on the counter. The news was lying on the counter, and, of course, he ruffled through it.
Mr.Hubert. And you say he reread it; so now you are quite certain that he had read it before?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he must have read it before. See, now, I can’t tell you if he read it before that or I showed it to him or what. I just don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. In any case when he saw it at the coffeeshop, it was obviously the second time.
Mr.Senator. He was very disturbed.
Mr.Hubert. Or the third time.
Mr.Senator. He was very, very disturbed over both of these.
Mr.Hubert. Explain what actions of his lead you now to the conclusion that you describe as a disturbed condition.
Mr.Senator. His voice of speech; the way he looked at you.
Mr.Hubert. His voice was loud or low or different or what?
Mr.Senator. Yes; it was different. It was different; the way he looked at you. It just don’t look like the normal procedure.
Mr.Hubert. Had you ever seen him in that condition before?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say—I don’t know how to put these conditions together, but I have seen him hollering, things like I told you in the past, but this here, he had sort of a stare look in his eye. I don’t know how to describe it. I don’t know how to put it together.
Mr.Griffin. I didn’t catch that. What kind of a look?
Mr.Senator. A stare look; I don’t know. I can’t express it. I don’t know how to put it in words.
Mr.Hubert. But it was different from anything you had ever seen on Jack Ruby before?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And it was noticeably so?
Mr.Senator. Oh yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you notice it?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I could notice it.
Mr.Hubert. Did it disturb you any?
Mr.Senator. I wouldn’t say exactly I was disturbed, but I could notice it.
Mr.Hubert. Did he seem to be concerned about the President’s death or the ad or what?
Mr.Senator. To me, I would probably say it must have been a combination of the entire thing. I know he was deeply hurt about the President, terribly.
Mr.Hubert. You say you know that. How do you know that?
Mr.Senator. What? By his feelings; by the way he talked about the family and the children; by tears in his eyes, which I have seen, and I am not the only one who has seen it.
Mr.Hubert. Do you think that he was more disturbed than the average person that you know was disturbed about the President’s death?
Mr.Senator. All I know, while I can’t say about the average because all I know, he was really deeply disturbed, but I can’t describe an average because there might be another individual of his nature, too, who knows. Who knows the affections of each and every individual?
Mr.Hubert. In any case his reaction wassuch——
Mr.Senator. It was pretty well—you know, disturbed as I was and as disturbed as I have seen many friends of mine, it was worse with him than it was with the others who I have seen.
Mr.Hubert. That is exactly what I was getting at. So he got hold of this newspaper ad and read it again—is that it—that is, in the coffeeshop?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he looked it over again.
Mr.Hubert. What comment did he make, while reading it or after?
Mr.Senator. While reading it?
Mr.Hubert. I don’t mean his words, you understand, his exact words, but the meaning, the thoughts expressed.
Mr.Senator. Yes; the thoughts. He can’t understand it. It is so penetrated in his mind he can’t understand why somebody would want to do something like this.
Mr.Hubert. The ad had nothing to do with killing the President?
Mr.Senator. No; but he couldn’t understand why an ad like this should break out, about this ad. Another thing he couldn’t understand why in the world would they want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. Incidentally, that sign come out of Massachusetts, that billboard.
Mr.Hubert. Was it your impression that Ruby was putting the three instances together as being connected in some way; to wit: the death of the President, the impeach Earl Warren sign, and the Weissman ad? Was he seeming to do that?
Mr.Senator. He was seeming to do at that time—he was seeming to do with the impeachment of Earl Warren, and the Weissman sign; he couldn’t understand why these things were of a nature—I don’t know how long this billboard has been out. I don’t know if it has been a day, two, or what it was, and then the ad break out the same day that President Kennedy was coming in. He wanted to know the whys.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, as I understand you, you gathered that was running through his mind, was why the ad, and the poster, appeared at the same time as the visit of the President; is that correct?
Mr.Senator. I would probably say it is something of that nature, I guess.
Mr.Hubert. I want to distinguish that, if possible, from another situation, and that is whether or not you gathered that he was disposed to place the killing of the President together with the poster and the ad.
Mr.Senator. Run that again.
Mr.Hubert. From what you could gather from his attitude, from what he said and how he acted, do you think it was running through his mind that there was a connection between the Earl Warren poster, the Weissman ad, and the killing of the President rather than the President’s visit?
Mr.Senator. No; I would say the subject at that time, when he was looking at the sign and taking pictures of it, and the newspaper ad, that this is where he really wanted to know the whys or why these things had to be out. He is trying to combine these two together, which I did hear him say, “This is the work of the John Birch Society or the Communist Party or maybe a combination of both.”
Mr.Hubert. What is the work of those two; the death of the President?
Mr.Senator. Oh, no, no, no.
Mr.Hubert. The publication of these signs?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. He did not indicate what his impressions were as to who was behind the death of the President?
Mr.Senator. No; he didn’t indicate that.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did he seem to associate the ads and the poster with the President’s death?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know about that part.
Mr.Hubert. But you do know that he was wondering why these two things, the poster and ad, should come out at the same time?
Mr.Senator. Now, mind you, I don’t know if they come out at the same time, because the billboard, I don’t know if that thing was there a day or a week.
Mr.Hubert. But he was associating the two of those together?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Or trying to find out if there was any connection between those two?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he wanted to know why.
Mr.Hubert. And it was the fact that the ad was published and the sign was posted that he attributed to the Communists or the Birch Society.
Mr.Senator. Yes; and he couldn’t understand why the Dallas Morning News would ever print such a thing like that, say that in their paper.
Mr.Hubert. You see what I am trying to get at is whether he manifested inany way that his thinking associated the assassination of the President with the posting of the Warren poster and publication of the ad, or rather whether he was simply associating the fact of the publication of the ad and the posting of the poster with communism, and so forth.
Mr.Senator. To my belief I think he was trying to associate the ad and the poster with the Communist Party or the John Birch Society.
Mr.Hubert. You did not gather from what he said that he associated the death of the President to the Birch Society or the Communists or any other group?
Mr.Senator. Not at the time that we were talking; rather, he was talking about the signs.
Mr.Hubert. That is, the poster and the ad?
Mr.Senator. The poster and the ad.
Mr.Hubert. Had you all talked to anybody else in the coffeehouse, in the coffeeshop?
Mr.Senator. No. I don’t think there was anybody in there at that time outside of, I think, a cashier and probably a waitress.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall whether he made any comment to the cashier or the waitress?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t.
Mr.Hubert. Did Larry have any comment to make that you recall?
Mr.Senator. I just don’t remember if he had any or not.
Mr.Hubert. Well, now, when Ruby stated what you said he stated concerning the poster, and so forth, did you have any comment to make about it?
Mr.Senator. Well, nothing compared to him. Of course, after I heard him mention it, then I sort of wondered also why an ad like that would be put in the paper, or why anybody would want to impeach Justice Earl Warren. What did it mean?
Mr.Hubert. Jack had taken the pictures and he had gone to the post office to check on the box. Did he state what he intended to do further?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Then you tried to calm him down?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Was it your impression that his state was that he should be spoken to by a friend and calmed down?
Mr.Senator. Well, I don’t know. It is hard for me to say these things. Who would really know?
Mr.Hubert. But in any case you didn’t argue with him about his view?
Mr.Senator. No. I don’t argue with him at any time.
Mr.Hubert. You did not state a concurring view, I take it?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Or an opposing view?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Nor did Larry?
Mr.Senator. Larry I can’t speak for because I just don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. And you don’t remember whether Ruby spoke to anybody else or anyone else spoke to him?
Mr.Senator. Not to my knowledge.
Mr.Hubert. Then what did you all do next?
Mr.Griffin. Before you go on, did Jack indicate what he was going to do with the photographs that he took?
Mr.Senator. No. He just took them and he never said what he was going to do with them. Of course, I know what the windup was with them later on.
Mr.Griffin. What was that?
Mr.Senator. Well, I believe the local policemen got them after the shooting when they searched him, took his money and his papers, and all of that, and I believe those pictures were with it.
Mr.Griffin. Whenyou——
Mr.Senator. At least I assumed the pictures were with him.
Mr.Griffin. Do you recall where this sign was located? When you rode out there in the car, do you recall any conversation you had with him, out to the sign?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. That was covered.
Mr.Senator. You see, when I have to jump 5 months back, it is hard to remember little things. It is not holding back. It is hard to remember.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you all go then?
Mr.Senator. From there he dropped Larry off, and Larry went back up and went to bed, up at the club. Then we went home.
Mr.Hubert. Was there any further discussion at all between you and Ruby?
Mr.Senator. Let’s see; I think we put on the TV for awhile that morning.
Mr.Hubert. It was about what time of the morning when you got back?
Mr.Senator. I would say somewhere between 5 and 6. Of course, I am guessing the time.
Mr.Hubert. It was still dark, wasn’t it?
Mr.Senator. Yes, but I think it was sort of a break already; you know, sort of lighting up a little bit.
Mr.Hubert. Go on.
Mr.Senator. And if I remember right, I think it was a rerun of the episodes of the day, if I remember.
Mr.Hubert. Did you go to bed before Jack?
Mr.Senator. You mean when we came back to the apartment?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. The same time. We went at the same time.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, you all looked at TV for a period. How long a period?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know; maybe 10 or 15 minutes.
Mr.Hubert. And you all went to bed?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You went to sleep?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether he did or not?
Mr.Senator. Well, he went to bed. Iassumed——
Mr.Hubert. You were in a different room from him?
Mr.Senator. Yes. I assumed he did, because when I woke up he was still asleep; you know, later on.
Mr.Hubert. What time was that?
Mr.Senator. I would say I must have woke up around, I don’t know, 10 o’clock, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. That is Saturday morning?
Mr.Senator. Saturday morning. I would say something like that.
Mr.Hubert. He was still asleep?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he was still asleep, but through the normal shuffling, you know, going to the bathroom and such and such, it woke him up.
Mr.Hubert. Where was the telephone in that apartment?
Mr.Senator. In the living room, but it had a long wire.
Mr.Hubert. But the ringing sound came from the actual machine itself? The ring would be where the phone was located?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Where was the phone located that night, do you know, in the living room?
Mr.Senator. I think it was in the living room.
Mr.Hubert. How far from your bedroom was it?
Mr.Senator. Icouldn’t——
Mr.Hubert. As close as his?
Mr.Senator. Let me tell you. In the living room, of course, he had one of these extension wires that would probably run, what, 13 feet or something like that, 12 feet, I don’t know what the extension is, but where it was at that moment I don’t know. I assumed that it was on the table. I just don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Would he normally take it in his room?
Mr.Senator. I don’t think he could get it all the way in his room. You see, he had the far bedroom and my bedroom was closer. I could take it in mine,but I don’t think I could take it in his, or he might be able to take it just partially a little bit, but I don’t think it would extend that far.
Mr.Hubert. If the phone machine was in the living room where it normally was, you would be closer to it, right, than he would?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. I take it you did not hear a phone call for him that morning?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Have you ever had occasion where the ringing of the phone wakened you?
Mr.Senator. I would have to say “No” on that because I am always up before he is.
Mr.Hubert. Tell us whether or not if Jack had received a phone call about 8:30 Saturday morning you would have heard it and it would have wakened you?
Mr.Senator. If he did I just don’t recollect. I wouldn’t say he did or didn’t have one because I just don’t remember if he did have one.
Mr.Hubert. You don’t remember if he had one?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. That I understand. But what I am asking you is whether or not the ringing of that phone in the position it was as you have explained it that is closer to you than to him, would have awakened you.
Mr.Senator. Oh sure, sure. I could have heard it.
Mr.Hubert. Are you willing to go so far as to state that since it did not awaken you, that there was no phone call?
Mr.Senator. I couldn’t quote because I don’t know if there was a phone call.
Mr.Hubert. That is not what I asked you. I am asking you whether you are willing to state that if there had been a phone call, it would have awakened you?
Mr.Senator. I would assume so.
Mr.Griffin. Let me go back a bit here. Up until the time you went to bed early Saturday morning, had Jack told you what he had done since the President was shot?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I know of some of them. I know that he went to the synagogue.
Mr.Griffin. Let me ask you did he tell you that night? I am not asking you what you know now, but before you went to bed Saturday morning had Jack told you what he had done that night, rather what he had done since the President had been shot?
Mr.Senator. I think he went to the—wait, I don’t remember if he told me that night or it was the next day. This is the thing I don’t remember.
Mr.Griffin. That is what I am trying to get at is whether you have any recollection.
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember, but I do know that he had told me that he went to a synagogue and that he brought sandwiches around to the police station, these are things I knew that he did. But I don’t remember if he told me that night or the next morning. I don’t remember which time it was.
Mr.Griffin. When you got up the next morning?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Griffin. Was Jack up?
Mr.Senator. No; he was sleeping.
Mr.Griffin. And did you see Jack before you left the house Saturday morning?
Mr.Senator. Oh yes. He was still home when I left.
Mr.Griffin. Was he awake?
Mr.Senator. Oh sure.
Mr.Griffin. So you talked with him?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. That is where I had left off.
Mr.Griffin. That is right. That is why I stopped.
Mr.Hubert. I think you said as a matter of fact here that the process ofyour waking up and moving around the house and so forth wakened him. How long did you stay around the house?
Mr.Senator. Saturday morning you are referring to?
Mr.Hubert. Yes; after awakening.
Mr.Senator. Saturday morning I must have left, as a guess, mind you, somewhere around, maybe somewheres between 11:30 and 12:30. Of course, I am only guessing. I could be a half hour off or I might be an hour off.
Mr.Hubert. That is to say that you stayed around the house anywhere from 1 hour to 2 hours after you awakened?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I would probably say that.
Mr.Hubert. And during most of that time Jack was awake and up, too?
Mr.Senator. Yes. He awoke after.
Mr.Hubert. Can you recall the substance of the conversations between you during that period of either 1 hour or 2 hours or something in between?
Mr.Senator. Well, we watched TV a bit, and he had mentioned—of course, he wasn’t feeling good when he woke up—he had mentioned the fact, he sort of rehashed the President and the kids all the time, how sorry he felt for them and how a great man like President Kennedy could have been shot. He thought this was a terrible thing to happen. Many a time he went through this how sorry he felt for the kids and Mrs. Kennedy, a poor tragic thing like this to happen to them.
Mr.Hubert. Did he tell you that he had decided to close the clubs?
Mr.Senator. No. I wasn’t with him. That was Friday night.
Mr.Hubert. I understand that, but I mean by Saturday morning, we are speaking of the conversations of Saturday morning.
Mr.Senator. No; this I already knew.
Mr.Hubert. You already knew?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. When did you find that out?
Mr.Senator. Friday night.
Mr.Hubert. Who told you?
Mr.Senator. The ad in the paper.
Mr.Hubert. That is how you first saw it?
Mr.Senator. That is how I knew. That was an ad at the sametime——
Mr.Hubert. Did you discuss with him at any time, either on Friday night or Saturday morning, the fact that he had closed the clubs, and the reason therefor?
Mr.Senator. He told me why he closed the club. He put this in heavy black, in heavy black block, that the Carousel will be closed Friday, Saturday, and Sunday, because he thought it was a terrible thing for anybody to be dancing and entertaining or drinking of that nature there at a time such as this.
Mr.Hubert. You say that he put an ad In the paper Friday night that the club would be closed for 3 days?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know what time because I assume he put it in sometime Friday afternoon.
Mr.Hubert. But the first time you saw the notice about the closing of the clubs, there was an announcement that the club would be closed for 3 days?
Mr.Senator. Thursday, Friday, and Saturday, I mean Friday, Saturday, and Sunday. That is the way the ad ran.
Mr.Hubert. And you saw that on Friday night before going to sleep?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Did you ever talk to him about it?
Mr.Senator. About the ad?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Being closed?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. I told him that I read it.
Mr.Hubert. And what was his comment, or query?
Mr.Senator. He was hoping that everybody else would close. He was hoping that the two other strip joints would close when they read his ad, because he didn’t feel they should be open on account of the simple reason of the tragedythat happened, where they should be having entertainment, dancing, and drinking. He didn’t think it was the right thing to do at this time.
Mr.Hubert. Did he indicate to you that he thought it would hurt them if they did not close also?
Mr.Senator. That it would hurt their business?
Mr.Hubert. The other business, his competitors?
Mr.Senator. Well, I don’t know about that, but I assumed, of course, I am assuming only what I think, that I believe a lot of stores also closed that day. I think Neiman Marcus closed. I believe in that downtown area there was quite a few stores that did close.
Mr.Hubert. Did it come to your attention that he was attempting to keep his competitors from knowing that he proposed to close?
Mr.Senator. How could he when he ran an ad?
Mr.Hubert. I mean for the Friday night.
Mr.Senator. To keep them from knowing?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Not that I know of.
Mr.Hubert. Did he ever indicate toyou——
Mr.Senator. As a matter of fact, I would think he would want them to close.
Mr.Hubert. Why?
Mr.Senator. And I assumed that the way he put that ad in there. He thought everybody should observe something, such as what happened.
Mr.Hubert. Were you aware that he had told Larry Crafard not to put a little sign that was posted in front of the Carousel, not to tack it up announcing the closing of the Carousel until after the time for the opening of the other competitors?
Mr.Senator. No; because I never saw him that day.
Mr.Hubert. But he didn’t indicate to you as a matter of fact that he would like to see them open while he was closed?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. In grief over the President?
Mr.Senator. I was sort of inclined with my own thoughts in mind that he would probably want to see them closed. This was my own thought of mind.
Mr.Hubert. Did Jack give you any of his reflections on how this tragedy of the death of the President would affect the community of Dallas?
Mr.Senator. No; not that I can recall.
Mr.Hubert. I am talking about either Friday night or Saturday or at any other time.
Mr.Senator. You are referring to the individuals in the city of Dallas, right, the people of the city of Dallas?
Mr.Hubert. The business principally.
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t think so.
Mr.Hubert. Do you recall his making any comment to the effect that this tragedy would hurt the convention business of Dallas?
Mr.Senator. If he said it I just don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. Did he make any comment to you that you recall or heard to the effect that the tragedy and the hurting of the convention business would hurt his own Carousel and Vegas business?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember.
Mr.Hubert. He did not comment upon that at all?
Mr.Senator. If he did, I just don’t remember. I really don’t.
Mr.Hubert. What was his general condition on Saturday morning during the hour or 2 hours that you had occasion to observe him as opposed to the condition that you have already described on Friday night?
Mr.Senator. He still had that hurt feeling within him of what happened, and apparently this had never left his mind.
Mr.Hubert. Did he talk about the poster and the pictures he had obtained of it, or the Bernard Weissman ad?
Mr.Senator. He was now referring to the tragedy of the President, and of the family, what would happen to the family.
Mr.Hubert. In other words, on Saturday morning the events of earlier thatmorning, that is his agitation over the poster and his agitation over the advertisement seemed to have passed away?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know if it did or not.
Mr.Hubert. But he didn’t comment on it?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember him commenting on it.
Mr.Hubert. And his attitude at least was different in that regard than what it was the night before?
Mr.Senator. What he thought I still don’t know about that.
Mr.Hubert. You have given us a description of what his reaction was to the poster and to the ad.
Mr.Senator. Yes; now whathappened——
Mr.Hubert. That Friday night. All I am trying to do is get a comparison of his attitude in those areas between the two times. Do you see what I mean? I gather from what you tell me, let me see if I can rephrase it, that on Saturday morning the stress, if it could be called that, or the most important aspect of his reaction that you observed was his feeling of sorrow as to the President’s family.
Mr.Senator. Saturday morning?
Mr.Hubert. Saturday morning.
Mr.Senator. Yes; which was working on him pretty good.
Mr.Hubert. Now you say that it was working on him pretty good, and that is a mental impression that must have been created by the happening of events or by statements being made. How was it working on him pretty good? What did he say or do to convey to you that it was working on him pretty good?
Mr.Senator. He kept on repeating these things, numerous times he repeated that.
Mr.Hubert. Was that extraordinary for him?
Mr.Senator. I would think it would be. To me it would be.
Mr.Hubert. And what else was he doing that indicated toyou——
Mr.Senator. And I had seen him cry, because I guess who hasn’t you know.
Mr.Hubert. And what else?
Mr.Senator. And I had seen him cry, and he just got that funny look in his eyes. I don’t know how to describe it. You call it a far-away look or a look of something. I don’t now how to tear it down. But it wasn’t a natural look.
Mr.Hubert. Did you have that impression that morning or have you reconstructed all this in your mind after all the events had happened?
Mr.Senator. About his looks?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. No; you could see it. After all, I have been around him enough to know the difference.
Mr.Hubert. You noticed the difference. And, of course, he shot Oswald.
Mr.Senator. What?
Mr.Hubert. You noticed this difference, and you now have a recollection of noticing that difference about the events of the next day; is that right?
Let me show you what I mean. I want you to try to remember whether you had a distinct impression, which you now recollect, on Saturday about his worsening condition. Do you have that recollection now, Mr. Senator?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I could tell by facial expressions, facial look.
Mr.Hubert. What I am getting at is whether or not in thinking over this thing as you must have done, of course, that you reconstructed all of this, and that your recollection is of the reconstruction rather than of the fact itself. Do you understand what I mean?
Mr.Senator. No; I don’t know what you mean when you ask me if I am reconstructing it.
Mr.Hubert. What I mean is this. When after all this whole thing came to a climax with the shooting of Oswald by Ruby, you must have put all of your thoughts together concerning those last days, and as a matter of fact you have been questioned a number of times by a number of people.
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Including Government agents?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And including his lawyer. What I want to know is whetherwhat you are telling us now is a recollection of the reconstruction of this whole period, or is it now a distinct recollection independent of any reconstruction that you made in telling the story to anybody else. Do you remember now, today, that on that Saturday morning you had the feeling that man is getting worse on this subject?
Mr.Senator. That is the way he appeared to me.
Mr.Hubert. And you remember that now, that that thought turned over in your mind on Saturday morning.
Mr.Senator. Yes; I do.
Mr.Hubert. Did it alarm you in any way?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know how to describe myself with it, but I know it didn’t look good.
Mr.Hubert. What was your fear?
Mr.Senator. I wasn’t fearing anything. I just didn’t like the way he looked.
Mr.Hubert. When you say it didn’t look good, in what way do you mean?
Mr.Senator. It didn’t look like the normal look as I have known him.
Mr.Hubert. Was your concern, if not your fear, that he might go off his normal method of thinking or that he would do himself harm? I mean were you concerned or was it just simply an observation which you passed on?
Mr.Senator. I am observing all this. You know I can tell. But I didn’t know what to think. I didn’t know how to think.
Mr.Hubert. I think you have already said that you didn’t have any fears of anything.
Mr.Senator. No; I wasn’t afraid of him.
Mr.Hubert. No; but I mean were you concerned that something might happen to him, that he might do something?
Mr.Senator. No; not particularly; no.
Mr.Hubert. Did you thinkthat——
Mr.Senator. The thing is I never asked him the thoughts within him or what he was thinking about.
Mr.Hubert. Did it occur to you that maybe somebody ought to talk to him about it, that his grief was going to the point, or his condition of being upset was going to the point that somebody ought to talk to him about it?
Mr.Senator. I know he visited his sister, and, of course, both were in grief together, and I don’t know if he contacted his rabbi or not.
Mr.Hubert. I think you mentioned a little while ago that he told you he had been tothe——
Mr.Senator. To the synagogue.
Mr.Hubert. To the synagogue?
Mr.Senator. If he talked to the rabbi, I don’t know. Now, I know that he went to the synagogue that Friday night to pray for the President. Now, if he had personal contact with the rabbi I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Do you know whether he went to the synagogue on Saturday?
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I really don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. You left him at the house when you left?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. And you left at approximately 12:30?
Mr.Senator. I would say something around that nature.
Mr.Hubert. He would certainly not have gone to the rabbi then, to the synagogue, on Saturday morning.
Mr.Senator. I don’t know. I mean I couldn’t answer that. I wouldn’t know.
Mr.Hubert. Maybe you can, or at least you can give us some facts. He was asleep when you awoke at 10:30, isn’t that right?
Mr.Senator. Yes; but he was up. He Was up when I left.
Mr.Hubert. And you left at 12:30?
Mr.Senator. I am only assuming within an hour.
Mr.Hubert. So it could have been 11:30?
Mr.Senator. 11:30, 12, 12:30. I can’t say because actually, you know, when this period is going on, I am not watching clocks. I don’t own one. I can’t go by a timetable because I didn’t have the time.
Mr.Hubert. Certainly, he didn’t leave the house from the time he got up until you left.
Mr.Senator. No; I left first.
Mr.Hubert. That is correct.
Mr.Senator. Now, what time he left I don’t know.
Mr.Hubert. But he didn’t leave the house from the time you got up until the time you left?
Mr.Senator. That is right.
Mr.Hubert. Now, perhaps we can fix the time when you left a little better by going on and seeing where you went. I ask you where you went?
Mr.Senator. Saturday where did I go? Saturday I think I stopped down, I think my first stop was down at the coffee shop. I think I went down for coffee, and my whereabouts, I don’t even know where I went that day because I don’t work on Saturdays. I guess I probably just as well stood around. Just where I went, I remember where I went Saturday evening, but I don’t remember where I went Saturday afternoon. Just no particular place or anything unusual.
Mr.Hubert. You do recall that your first stop in any case was the coffeeshop?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Which one was that?
Mr.Senator. I think it was Eatwell Coffee Shop that I went to.
Mr.Hubert. You had sort of breakfast and coffee?
Mr.Senator. Coffee and. Maybe coffee and a doughnut or coffee and a bun or something like that.
Mr.Hubert. You were driving the Volkswagen?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. You were not on business?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. And you say you have a distinct recollection of some event that night?
Mr.Senator. Of where I was?
Mr.Hubert. Yes.
Mr.Senator. Oh yes; because when I came home that night, I think it was around somewheres between 7 and 7:30, I think I come home that night, and I come home with some groceries that I wanted to make. So I made some groceriesand——
Mr.Hubert. Was Jack home at that time?
Mr.Senator. Yes; he was gone.
Mr.Hubert. He was not there?
Mr.Senator. No; he wasn’t there.
Mr.Hubert. That was about 7:30?
Mr.Senator. I would say I think it was around 7:30. So I made the groceries and then I left some for him, and I ate and I was assuming that maybe he would be home by the time I was making the groceries. But he wasn’t home, so after I ate I went out again.
Mr.Hubert. Had you been drinking that afternoon?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember. Possibly I may have had a beer or two. I just don’t remember. I am not a heavy drinker. I am not a drunkard, mind you.
Mr.Hubert. No; I didn’t mean to infer that at all, but I was wondering why it was that you couldn’t give us any indication of where you went, whether it was one or several places between noon or 12:30 until 7:30 that night. I think you can remember some of the things, some of the places.
Mr.Senator. Well, let me see.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t come home until 7:30?
Mr.Senator. No. I was out.
Mr.Hubert. Did you follow any usual Saturday afternoon routine?
Mr.Senator. No. There is nothing. There is no routine. Saturday, there is no routine.
Mr.Hubert. You didn’t call on any customers?
Mr.Senator. No; nothing. Just out, that is all.
Mr.Hubert. Were you riding around for 7½ hours?
Mr.Senator. No.
Mr.Hubert. Where did you go?
Mr.Senator. This is what I am trying to think, where did I go. I don’t remember if I called my lawyer friend or met my lawyer friend or not that day.
Mr.Hubert. Who is your lawyer friend?
Mr.Senator. I have got—Jim Martin. I don’t remember if I called him. Once in a while I’d have a beer with him.
Mr.Hubert. But you don’t know whether you had a beer with him, I suppose?
Mr.Senator. I don’t remember. I just don’t remember the routine of the day. There was nothing that I did in general.
Mr.Hubert. You did go to some grocery store to pick up the groceries?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember which one that was?
Mr.Senator. Sir?
Mr.Hubert. Do you remember which grocery store it was?
Mr.Senator. Yes; I think I went to Safeway.
Mr.Hubert. Safeway?
Mr.Senator. Safeway.
Mr.Hubert. On what street?
Mr.Senator. That is on Jefferson.
Mr.Hubert. Well now, does the recollection of that fact, which must have been what you did almost immediately before going home—let me put it this way. Was your trip to Safeway to pick up the groceries the thing that you did immediately before you went home?
Mr.Senator. Yes.
Mr.Hubert. So it would be safe to say, wouldn’t it, that you went to Safeway around a half hour to an hour before you went home?
Mr.Senator. I probably had gone maybe around 6:30 or 7, something like that.
Mr.Hubert. Does that help to refresh your memory as to where you had been just before you went to the grocery?
Mr.Senator. Is it possible to forget?
Mr.Hubert. Why yes, of course, it is.
Mr.Senator. Mind you this is 5 months.
Mr.Hubert. But it is my duty to explore the possibilities.
Mr.Senator. I know that. If I could think and help you out I would be happy to, if I knew. I just can’t place, place to place, where I have been. I may have been out having a beer or I may have been out chewing the fat with some friend of mine. I just don’t remember what I was doing that day.
Mr.Hubert. It may be that if you think about it a bit more you can help us a little later on.
Mr.Senator. I could if I wanted to, I could have made up a fictitious story to you and say that I sat in the bar for 3 hours or I was out with some girl or something like that. He is writing all this down. But I am telling you the truth.
Mr.Hubert. I don’t want you to tell us something that is fictitious. If it is a fact that you do not remember, then that is the fact and that is all we want to know. I think that sometimes one’s memory is refreshed, as it were, by events. If you can’t remember it now, we will come back to it a little later and see if you can recollect what happened in this period of about 6 hours on that Saturday afternoon.